Underpowered Speakers?
Daniel Wiltshire
thanks!
Quick question: My church is getting quotes done for a complete new audio
visual system. I play keys and have a keen interest in PA so I am trying to
get involved as much as possible.
The first quote we have seems to have specified some good speakers: 4 EAW
KF300 for the main auditorium, 2 EAW SB330e subs and 2 ARX AMB5-8S (never
heard of these) under the stage to cover the dead spot in the first few
rows. However, the amps seem to be very underpowered for the amount of
speakers. Specified are 1 QSC RMX850, 1 Carver PM950 and 1 C Audio 707. I
have only just seen the quote and it doesn't say what speakers each amp is
for, but it seems to be not enough. What do you people think?
Any recommendations about amps or speakers which may be appropriate?
We are based in Bristol, UK and are looking for quotes for some decent stuff
so if anyone is interested it would be great to hear from you. Total cost
for that stuff plus cables, flying kits, racks and installation etc was
around £.23k
Thanks in advance
Daniel Wiltshire
Tim S Kemp
> visual system. I play keys and have a keen interest in PA so I am trying
to
> get involved as much as possible.
> The first quote we have seems to have specified some good speakers: 4 EAW
> KF300 for the main auditorium, 2 EAW SB330e subs and 2 ARX AMB5-8S (never
> heard of these) under the stage to cover the dead spot in the first few
> rows. However, the amps seem to be very underpowered for the amount of
> speakers. Specified are 1 QSC RMX850, 1 Carver PM950 and 1 C Audio 707. I
> have only just seen the quote and it doesn't say what speakers each amp is
> for, but it seems to be not enough. What do you people think?
Whooooaa that's low powered! KF300 is lovely, the SB330 is nice too, but you
need about 1k per box from memory to be able to drive them well - and they
should be better than RMX series.
C-Audio now part of Crown, I'd have thought 2x Pulse 1100 driving the 4
KF300, 2x Pulse 1100 bridged with 2 SB330 off each (IIRC SB330 is an 8 ohm
box but I'd have to look it up) but either get a consultant or at least a
demo to ensure that is what you want!
How big's your auditorium? We're extinding ours to 500 seats and putting a
Turbo rig in soon (building work starts next week) - the KF300 is not a
subtle box visually, we found the Turbo TQ310 suits our needs better from an
aesthetic aspect.
> Any recommendations about amps or speakers which may be appropriate?
Not without knowing more about the room...
> We are based in Bristol, UK and are looking for quotes for some decent
stuff
> so if anyone is interested it would be great to hear from you. Total cost
> for that stuff plus cables, flying kits, racks and installation etc was
> around £.23k
hmmmm... plus or inc VAT?
Daniel Wiltshire
> Whooooaa that's low powered! KF300 is lovely, the SB330 is nice too, but
you
> need about 1k per box from memory to be able to drive them well - and they
> should be better than RMX series.
>
> C-Audio now part of Crown, I'd have thought 2x Pulse 1100 driving the 4
> KF300, 2x Pulse 1100 bridged with 2 SB330 off each (IIRC SB330 is an 8 ohm
> box but I'd have to look it up) but either get a consultant or at least a
> demo to ensure that is what you want!
>
> How big's your auditorium? We're extinding ours to 500 seats and putting a
> Turbo rig in soon (building work starts next week) - the KF300 is not a
> subtle box visually, we found the Turbo TQ310 suits our needs better from
an
> aesthetic aspect.
>
> > Any recommendations about amps or speakers which may be appropriate?
>
> Not without knowing more about the room...
>
> > We are based in Bristol, UK and are looking for quotes for some decent
> stuff
> > so if anyone is interested it would be great to hear from you. Total
cost
> > for that stuff plus cables, flying kits, racks and installation etc was
> > around £.23k
>
> hmmmm... plus or inc VAT?
>
are suggesting comes to about 4k watts if driven at full power and that is
way too much for our auditorium. We currently seat about 400 max, with seats
in the balcony and at ground level. The main problem from my point of view
is the on-stage monitoring - the stuff we have at the moment is total
rubbish and we need to get that right sooner rather than later!
We're still in the early stages of looking for quotes at the moment and I
think we need to get a proper sound design company in to look at the
building, acoustics etc. The company that has quoted us already are a big AV
company but they seem to know nothing about sound. Looking at their website
they deal mainly with small scale presentation audio etc. Any ideas for
companies who could do the job better - ie ascertain what we actually need,
talk to the PA people, musicians etc and who are sensitive to church music
needs?
Tim S Kemp
> are suggesting comes to about 4k watts if driven at full power and that is
> way too much for our auditorium. We currently seat about 400 max, with
seats
> in the balcony and at ground level. The main problem from my point of view
> is the on-stage monitoring - the stuff we have at the moment is total
> rubbish and we need to get that right sooner rather than later!
What's the height? Unless the KF300 are flown high you won't cover the
balcony... Stage monitoring is easy (but I'll risk being accuse of being
payed by db technologies if I name the product again).
> We're still in the early stages of looking for quotes at the moment and I
> think we need to get a proper sound design company in to look at the
> building, acoustics etc. The company that has quoted us already are a big
AV
> company but they seem to know nothing about sound. Looking at their
website
> they deal mainly with small scale presentation audio etc. Any ideas for
> companies who could do the job better - ie ascertain what we actually
need,
> talk to the PA people, musicians etc and who are sensitive to church music
> needs?
Well, I can suggest a new company based not far from me (who I do work for)
who would help you out, or try any of the big boys - My email address is
genuine so if you want some help (or I can visit next time I'm in the area)
drop me a line.
Personally I would look for a company experienced in live music,
presentation sound has less power requirements (4kWatts sounds like a lot
but peaks in your music might surprise you, without knowing the style of
your meetings etc again I couldn't advise)
Tim
Ian Cunningham
"Daniel Wiltshire" wrote
> The first quote we have seems to have specified some good speakers: 4 EAW
> KF300 for the main auditorium, 2 EAW SB330e subs and 2 ARX AMB5-8S (never
> heard of these) under the stage to cover the dead spot in the first few
> rows. However, the amps seem to be very underpowered for the amount of
> speakers. Specified are 1 QSC RMX850, 1 Carver PM950 and 1 C Audio 707. I
> have only just seen the quote and it doesn't say what speakers each amp is
> for, but it seems to be not enough. What do you people think?
>
> Any recommendations about amps or speakers which may be appropriate?
What a wierd mix of amps!
Assuming one of the amps is for the ARX (presumably the RMX):
The KF300s work best if Bi-amped you're looking at least for
2x600W @4 ohms for the HF/MF
2x1200W @ 4ohms for the LF
2x1000W @4?? ohms for the SB330s
Crown, QSC, Chevin, Lab Gruppen are all good choices
Which version of the KF300 is it?
The KF300e I know to be a nice box but its now discontinued replaced by the
KF300z
Its not the lightest or most discrete of boxes though there are other
choices to look at.
THe main one to check out is the D&B range , the C6/C690/E9 tops coupled
with C4/C7 subs are a solid choice
The clarity you get from a well rigged D&B system is superb (like a hugely
loud hi-fi)
Their systems are also very scalable from the diminutive E3 up to the
fearsome B2 Infrabass
Other suspects include the Nexo PS15 & Turbo Q-light. The HK audio stuff
looks good (I'll find out for sure at their demo day in a couple of weeks)
--
Ian Cunningham
Solus Technical Services
Ian Cunningham
"Daniel Wiltshire" <wrote
> Thanks for the reply. That price was ex vat. To be honest, the system they
> are suggesting comes to about 4k watts if driven at full power and that is
> way too much for our auditorium. We currently seat about 400 max, with
seats
> in the balcony and at ground level. The main problem from my point of view
> is the on-stage monitoring - the stuff we have at the moment is total
> rubbish and we need to get that right sooner rather than later!
4Kw is not neccessarily OTT - thats it maximum you don't *HAVE* to run it
flat out! - you are better to have too much power and turn it down rather
than pushing a small rig too hard
CAn you give some details of the existing FOH / monitor system - is there a
pressing need to upgrade the FOH or could you spend on the monitors (often
the most neglected part of a rig)
> We're still in the early stages of looking for quotes at the moment and I
> think we need to get a proper sound design company in to look at the
> building, acoustics etc. The company that has quoted us already are a big
AV
> company but they seem to know nothing about sound. Looking at their
website
> they deal mainly with small scale presentation audio etc. Any ideas for
> companies who could do the job better - ie ascertain what we actually
need,
> talk to the PA people, musicians etc and who are sensitive to church music
> needs?
Go to an experienced sound install company, many "AV" companies stuggle with
proper sound and light setup
There's a huge difference from presentation sound to full sound
reinforcement.
There are many good companies around - e-mail me off list if you want more
info
David Meed
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>We're still in the early stages of looking for quotes at the moment and I
>think we need to get a proper sound design company in to look at the
>building, acoustics etc. The company that has quoted us already are a big AV
>company but they seem to know nothing about sound. Looking at their website
>they deal mainly with small scale presentation audio etc. Any ideas for
>companies who could do the job better - ie ascertain what we actually need,
>talk to the PA people, musicians etc and who are sensitive to church music
>needs?
www.churchsoundcheck.com - join the list and ask there.
Can't type more right now, my keyboard isn't working right...
-----
David Meed <dm...@nbnet.nb.ca>
http://www3.nbnet.nb.ca/dmeed (Sony LANC, DMX-512, Panasonic Control M)
http://www.nbbi.ca/nbbi
Daniel Wiltshire
a chat with the powers that be!
Dan Wiltshire
Mark Thackeray
news:addffn$mpf$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi all. I read this group a lot and I have learnt so much from you, so
> thanks!
>
> Quick question: My church is getting quotes done for a complete new audio
> visual system. I play keys and have a keen interest in PA so I am trying
to
> get involved as much as possible.
>
> The first quote we have seems to have specified some good speakers: 4 EAW
> KF300 for the main auditorium, 2 EAW SB330e subs and 2 ARX AMB5-8S (never
> heard of these) under the stage to cover the dead spot in the first few
> rows. However, the amps seem to be very underpowered for the amount of
> speakers. Specified are 1 QSC RMX850, 1 Carver PM950 and 1 C Audio 707. I
> have only just seen the quote and it doesn't say what speakers each amp is
> for, but it seems to be not enough. What do you people think?
>
People are still specing C-Audio 707s? They're ancient. They are robust,
but really heavy and ours have had some reliablity issues, namely
oscillation on outputs, which doesn't do speakers a lot of good!
I'd suggest having a look at the C-Audio Pulse series, some of the cheaper
Crest Amps (the new series are apparently quite cheap for the power) or
Crown.
> Any recommendations about amps or speakers which may be appropriate?
>
Speakers wise, D&B c6/c7 might be ok (with E3 as fills), Nexo PS15 or PS10
depending on the size of room or have a look at some of the Opus stuff (see
below at audioforum). Another good manufacturer is L'acoustics, they are
based in Salisbury in the UK, I know that one of the churches here in
Southampton have looked at them, they might have something suitable. We
have an ARCS system here which is great, but it is probably a bit big for
you!
> We are based in Bristol, UK and are looking for quotes for some decent
stuff
> so if anyone is interested it would be great to hear from you. Total cost
> for that stuff plus cables, flying kits, racks and installation etc was
> around £.23k
>
Have a look in the phonebook for Audioforum, they are based in Brislington.
The guys' name is Mike, he does quite a lot of install stuff in the area,
and might be able to help you out.
bonus
on your soundsystem would have been better spent on helping the needy rather
than giving you toys with which to backslap and play with? i thought that
christians were supposed to help the needy, and i'm sure theres enough
homeless people in the bristol area that could of benefited from that
£23k.....or have i missed the point? please enlighten me..
"Mark Thackeray" <mrt...@soton.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:adiai0$647$1...@aspen.sucs.soton.ac.uk...
Phildo
"bonus" <beartasti...@doodaa.com> wrote in message
news:adkgq6$7m2$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> at risk of it sounding like sour grapes, dont you think that the 23k
spent
> on your soundsystem would have been better spent on helping the needy
rather
> than giving you toys with which to backslap and play with? i thought
that
> christians were supposed to help the needy, and i'm sure theres enough
> homeless people in the bristol area that could of benefited from that
> £23k.....or have i missed the point? please enlighten me..
That £23k is a pittance compared to what they waste in some churches in
the US and Australia.
Phildo
bonus
"Phildo" <Ph...@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:adklkp$11p3ug$1...@ID-77649.news.dfncis.de...
Phildo
> ...anyway i thought that the devil had all the good music..
We do :-)
Phildo
George Gleason
>
> "bonus" <beartasti...@doodaa.com> wrote in message
> news:adkpsi$j62$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> > ...anyway i thought that the devil had all the good music..
There is no such thing as the devil
George
Dave Andrews
shoulder:
"There is no such thing as the devil"
--
With All Due Respect,
Dave Andrews
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists
"Two Hacks Working Out Of A Garage"
Disclaimer: If there are two ways to take my words,
always assume I was after the cheap laugh.
Tim S Kemp
> the US and Australia.
Hillsongs has a three-PM1D setup, you're only jealous ;-)
They also have a succesful business doing live worship CDs.
Daniel Wiltshire
old arguments coming up?
And for what it's worth we do a lot of work with the needy in our area, we
have sheltered housing available, clothing supplies etc etc.
Don't just jump to conclusions
Thanks
Daniel
Phildo
"Tim S Kemp" <ne...@timkemp.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:adlc0t$ft8$1...@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net...
> > That £23k is a pittance compared to what they waste in some churches
in
> > the US and Australia.
>
> Hillsongs has a three-PM1D setup, you're only jealous ;-)
>
Phildo
Tim S Kemp
> >
> Not jealous, disgusted is more like it.
Why?
Because it's not Analogue?
Because it's Australian (fair point, so is Fosters and XXXX and they never
apologised for those, or Neighbours...)?
Because it happens to be in a big Church centre?
Phildo
> > > Hillsongs has a three-PM1D setup, you're only jealous ;-)
> > >
> > Not jealous, disgusted is more like it.
>
> Why?
>
> Because it's not Analogue?
Nope.
> Because it's Australian (fair point, so is Fosters and XXXX and they
never
> apologised for those, or Neighbours...)?
Nope (and there's nothing wrong with Neighbours that isn't negated by
Kylie, Natalie etc).
> Because it happens to be in a big Church centre?
Hit the nail on the head. $millions wasted on a completely pointless
exercise that could have been spent on much more worthy causes. While
rock stars etc waste money at least they don't do it while pretending to
want to make the world a better place. Yet another prime example of the
hypocrisy that is organised religion.
Phildo
Tim S Kemp
> Kylie, Natalie etc).
WHAT???? Kylie maybe (Fever is actually a good album!) but Natilie??? Oh
no.....
<snip to avoid repeat of the religion debate from a few months ago>
Hubert Barth
>Hit the nail on the head. $millions wasted on a completely pointless
>exercise that could have been spent on much more worthy causes. While
>rock stars etc waste money at least they don't do it while pretending to
>want to make the world a better place. Yet another prime example of the
>hypocrisy that is organised religion.
Phildo,
as much as I respect your opinion on the matter.
I doubt people here want to hear that.
If you could boil church bashing down to once a year perhaps ;-)
regards
--
Hubert Barth
Cologne/Germany
http://www.bigbands.de
GK
"Dave Andrews" <dwas...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020605085507...@mb-fi.aol.com...
> George Gleason says with hope in his heart as he sneaks a quick glance
over his
> shoulder:
>
> "There is no such thing as the devil"
Hey George! Check it out! The devil bait worked.
GK
Dave Andrews
=========================================
I've been called worse, GK.
BTW, you know what they say about "paybacks".
Stay alert.
OJB
Try Sound Foundation, they are a company that evolved out of doing christian
events and it is still a large part of their buisness. Ther will be
sensitive to the needs of a church pa
system.
http://www.soundfoundation.com/
Give them a ring, ask tor Graham or Mark.
Hope this helps,
Oli