Is small venue live sound really that hard?
Ironfist
I've noticed that the vast majority of bands I see in local dives sound like
complete crap mix-wise. Of course the majority of them sound like crap
volume-wise, but that's to be expected. I've narrowed it down to a few big
culprits:
1. Way Too Loud! What's the use of having a good mix or playing well when
your volume level is almost intolerable? Almost every single band I've seen
has had this problem. It's probably due at least in part to guitarists who
refuse to turn down their amps on stage (or the ones who start if off low in
soundcheck but then crank when it's showtime).
2. Sonic Sludge. This describes what most bands sound like when up and
playing. When you have two guitars and a bass playing with drums it sounds
like a big wall of indistinct noise with a beat behind it. It always seems
like there's too much lows and low-mids in the eq and it ends up being
muddy. The guitarists like to use too much distortion so that definitely
doesn't help things one bit.
3. No room to breathe. This might relate to my "sonic sludge" concept but
it's as if the members of the band are constantly stepping on one another's
toes musically. No, guitar chords do not always need to be held onto until
the guitar amp starts feeding back. Bassists that like to play big
root-five chords underneath dual guitars don't help either. Vocals often
get buried under loud instruments. This is really more of a band issue- not
the soundman's.
Am I somewhat correct on my assessment? Why are decent sounding live
bands so hard to find? I'd bet that over 90% of small rock acts out there
could fit under my description. Any suggestions so I don't run into this
same problem with my current and future bands?
Joe.
Phildo
"Ironfist" <brogeNOS...@tds.net> wrote in message
news:JaLE5.5382$4j7.1...@ratbert.tds.net...
> I have a small rant here. I am in no way an expert on live sound,
but
> I've noticed that the vast majority of bands I see in local dives
sound like
> complete crap mix-wise. Of course the majority of them sound like
crap
> volume-wise, but that's to be expected. I've narrowed it down to a
few big
> culprits:
You forgot
4. the majority of clubs can't afford decent equipment so don't get a
good sound
5. the majority of clubs can't afford good engineers so don't get a good
sound (all the best engineers are on the road).
6. the majority of good bands have graduated from playing clubs and are
now doing better venues.
Phildo
Phildo
when
> your volume level is almost intolerable? Almost every single band
I've seen
> has had this problem. It's probably due at least in part to
guitarists who
> refuse to turn down their amps on stage (or the ones who start if off
low in
> soundcheck but then crank when it's showtime).
This is more commonly known as the
"guitarist-trying-to-be-macho-while-compensating-for-his-incredibly-smal
l-genitalia,-his-failure-to-lose-his-virginity-and-his-suppressed-homose
xual-tendancies" syndrome.
> 2. Sonic Sludge. This describes what most bands sound like when up
and
> playing. When you have two guitars and a bass playing with drums it
sounds
> like a big wall of indistinct noise with a beat behind it. It always
seems
> like there's too much lows and low-mids in the eq and it ends up being
> muddy. The guitarists like to use too much distortion so that
definitely
> doesn't help things one bit.
Inexperienced bands. Nothing a soundman can do for them except give them
advice.
> 3. No room to breathe. This might relate to my "sonic sludge"
concept but
> it's as if the members of the band are constantly stepping on one
another's
> toes musically. No, guitar chords do not always need to be held onto
until
> the guitar amp starts feeding back. Bassists that like to play big
> root-five chords underneath dual guitars don't help either. Vocals
often
> get buried under loud instruments. This is really more of a band
issue- not
> the soundman's.
Again down to inexperience.
> Am I somewhat correct on my assessment? Why are decent sounding
live
> bands so hard to find?
Because they're playing the big clubs for big bucks who can afford
decent sound gear and engineers.
> I'd bet that over 90% of small rock acts out there
> could fit under my description. Any suggestions so I don't run into
this
> same problem with my current and future bands?
Yeah, don't work in clubs. Get a professional attitude, think about what
you're doing musically, control your individual levels on stage and
remember "it's not what you put in that's important but what you leave
out".
Phildo
GK
400 club gigs.
1.Try to carry your own monitor rig if possible. A 4 wedge 4 channel setup
is likely to be better than a lot of the clubs have. This allows you to be
able to:
2. Demand that the aforementioned loud amps be turned down to a decent level
which can then be fed back to the needy musician thru the monitors.
3. Take control. Most of the poor house sound I've run into has been because
the house guy isn't very good. The club has a pile of usable stuff but no
one can even figure out the EQ. If poor gain structure is the problem, find
it and fix it if you can.
4. Submix. For instance, our keyboard player has a B3/Leslie, Rhodes,
Kurzweil, Roland Juno, and Moog all on stage at once and uses all of them
during the course of a show. These are all submixed to stereo, compressed,
gated and output to a pair of DIs on stage. The key submix rack is just
another part of the (monstrous) rig. The result is a complicated keyboard
mix that is much more consistent from venue to venue and easy to fit into
those 12 channel mixes.
5. Carry your own small FOH mixer. Speaking of 12 channel mixes. Sometimes
the house mixer is such crap that you can't use it. With your own mixer you
can do your thing and feed it into an aux input of the mains or something
like that. Your own FX would be a good idea, too. A Nanoverb and
Nanocompressor or two are cheap and cheesy but handy in a pinch. More useful
than FX built into the mixer because you can use them anytime.
6. Carry every ground lifting device you can find with you and use where
necessary to eliminate hums.
Hope this is helpful
GK
www.ancientharmony.com
Mike Borkhuis
> I've noticed that the vast majority of bands I see in local dives sound like
> complete crap mix-wise.
Simple rule... Garbage in = garbage out. How can a 'bar band' sound good
when they're mediocre players at best, BEFORE they start drinking??? Which,
as I've observed, usually starts when they walk thru the door to setup.
> 1. Way Too Loud! What's the use of having a good mix or playing well
> when your volume level is almost intolerable? Almost every single band
> I've seen has had this problem. It's probably due at least in part to
> guitarists who refuse to turn down their amps on stage (or the ones who
> start if off low in soundcheck but then crank when it's showtime).
This stems from poor practice environments, where all the band does is
cranks their respective amps to 11 while the drummer wails away on the kit....
Come showtime, the band has no idea how to manage stage volume. Not to
mention an understanding that less is more....
> 2. Sonic Sludge. This describes what most bands sound like when up
> and playing. When you have two guitars and a bass playing with drums
> it sounds like a big wall of indistinct noise with a beat behind it. It
> always seems like there's too much lows and low-mids in the eq and it
> ends up being muddy. The guitarists like to use too much distortion so
> that definitely doesn't help things one bit.
Part of this is the aforementioned garbage rule.....
Part of this is poor system design, setup and tuning. Either by the house
tech (if it's a house system) or the bands engineer (if it's the house system
and he dicked with it OR if it's his own portable rig)....
Part of this is, like you mentioned, band members playing over each other
(in the next point)....
> 3. No room to breathe. This might relate to my "sonic sludge" concept
> but it's as if the members of the band are constantly stepping on one
> another's toes musically. No, guitar chords do not always need to be
> held onto until the guitar amp starts feeding back. Bassists that like to
> play big root-five chords underneath dual guitars don't help either.
heheheee.. But that's the 'big rock' sound/style... :P
> Vocals often get buried under loud instruments. This is really more of a
> band issue- not the soundman's.
Yes and no... The sound guy should be keeping the vocals on top and
clear... HOWEVER, he can't do that if the guitar amps are screaming louder
than the PA and/or the vocalist isn't doing his/her job...
> Am I somewhat correct on my assessment?
Yup.
> Why are decent sounding live bands so hard to find?
Well, either they don't care.... They don't know.... They're too drunk
to notice... OR, they're good enough that they've moved on.
> I'd bet that over 90% of small rock acts out there could fit under my
> description.
Perhaps..... Then again, the market can only sustain so many national and
reagonal level acts.
> Any suggestions so I don't run into this same problem with my
> current and future bands?
Learn the difference between the practice envirnoment and the show one...
Learn what makes for a good show....
Find a good sound engineer and work with him consistantly... Even during
rehearsals.
LISTEN to your engineer when it comes to what he needs to do the job
you're paying him to do....
Treat your engineer as part of the team instead of an outsider....
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Ironfist
> > I have a small rant here. I am in no way an expert on live sound,
but
> > I've noticed that the vast majority of bands I see in local dives sound
like
> > complete crap mix-wise.
>
> Simple rule... Garbage in = garbage out. How can a 'bar band' sound
good
> when they're mediocre players at best, BEFORE they start drinking???
Which,
> as I've observed, usually starts when they walk thru the door to setup.
I don't drink and even if I did I wouldn't drink on a gig. My observations
coincide with yours though- most bands have members that are inebriated by
the second set. I saw a band once that actual had bottles of hard liquor up
on stage and drank between songs. I guess it makes sense though- they don't
care that much in the first place, they care even less when drunk... all
they want is the cash at the end of the night and maybe a desperate bar skag
for a one nighter (shudder). I suppose there's nothing a good sound man can
do if the band performing is complete garbage. Maybe a a good soundman can
make them sound like clear and well mixed garbage, but garbage nonetheless.
Joe.
David Griffiths
mixing.. In the words of old f..ts like me .. ya got club chops!!
Mixing in small clubs is FAR more agrivating (for MANY reasons,
including the club owner) than any large venue, and sometimes ya gotta
play the clubs to build up your following.
Here is a tip. Place your instrument amps side stage and fire them
across the stage!! cuts down on the clutter and bleed and the players
themselves will tell EACH other to TURN DOWN!!
( have club chops and you can mix ANYWHERE!)
To the musicians... remeber G O O D is not spelled L O U D! although
they BOTH ar four letter words!!
Reese Thomas
>( have club chops and you can mix ANYWHERE!)
>
Gotta disagree Although club chops are important, it's a whole new ball game
doing large venue. Different set of chops-and much harder IMO
GK
"Reese Thomas" <tho...@strato.net> wrote in message
news:86SE5.1047$515.2...@news-west.usenetserver.com...
I agree with that.
GK
www.ancientharmony.com
GK
musicians there. I'm talking about bars that serve beer in the bottle at
least, no canned beer. 8~)
"Mike Borkhuis" <bork...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rcQE5.441$C52.1...@typhoon1.nyroc.rr.com...
Mike Borkhuis
Good for you... You're one up on most. =)
> My observations coincide with yours though- most bands have members
> that are inebriated by the second set. I saw a band once that actual had
> bottles of hard liquor up on stage and drank between songs. I guess it
> makes sense though- they don't care that much in the first place, they
> care even less when drunk... all they want is the cash at the end of the
> night and maybe a desperate bar skag for a one nighter (shudder).
I got a last minute call to do a bar band... Once there and setup, I was
told that I was expected to drink while I mixed... I said sure, as long as
it's water. They laughed and said nope.... I said if that's the way you want
it, I'm out'a here. They didn't believe me till I started packing up. Ended
up they conceeded and I stayed....
Funny thing though. At the end of the nite they all complimented me and
said it was the best sound they've ever had. Can't imagine why... ;)
> I suppose there's nothing a good sound man can do if the band performing
> is complete garbage. Maybe a a good soundman can make them sound
> like clear and well mixed garbage, but garbage nonetheless.
In that case, do the best you can with what they give you... Then refuse
the job next time. Course, my core business isn't doing bar bands, it's doing
church related gigs..... So, I have a decent excuse to turn them down....
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Mike Borkhuis
> musicians there. I'm talking about bars that serve beer in the bottle at
> least, no canned beer. 8~)
Sorry, no can beer bars around here (beer can festivals in the summer
though).... Just the bottle (and draft) kind... And the micro breweries...
And the 'upscale' clubs... Funny though... They all sound the same.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
David Shorter
> I don't drink and even if I did I wouldn't drink on a gig. My observations
> coincide with yours though- most bands have members that are inebriated by
> the second set. I saw a band once that actual had bottles of hard liquor up
> on stage and drank between songs. I guess it makes sense though- they don't
> care that much in the first place, they care even less when drunk... all
> they want is the cash at the end of the night and maybe a desperate bar skag
> for a one nighter (shudder). I suppose there's nothing a good sound man can
> do if the band performing is complete garbage. Maybe a a good soundman can
> make them sound like clear and well mixed garbage, but garbage nonetheless.
Oh my god, stop the show! You mean real actual hard liquor, heaven forbid!
A lot of musicians drink while on stage, from club bands to international
touring acts. There's a lot of difference between drinking and being drunk.
For some people alcohol can help loosen inhibitions and calm nerves that
can cause even experienced performers to regularly throw up before going
on stage.
--
Regards,
David Shorter
DazzReal Sound Labs
Auckland, New Zealand
Any errors in tact, fact or spelling
are entirely due to transmission error.
E. Hill
> across the stage!! cuts down on the clutter and bleed and the players
> themselves will tell EACH other to TURN DOWN!!
Never tried that, but I have faced the amps back at the players, then use a
mic or DI. That's especially useful outside, when there's nothing but air
behind them.
- Eric
Dinsdale
Bar owner couldn't understand it when I told him, "you want me to do sound, pay
me, you want me to drink I'll do it away from the board." No sense in getting myself
a reputation as an incompetent drunk.
martin heller
>1. Way Too Loud! What's the use of having a good mix or playing well when
>your volume level is almost intolerable? Almost every single band I've seen
>has had this problem. It's probably due at least in part to guitarists who
>refuse to turn down their amps on stage (or the ones who start if off low in
>soundcheck but then crank when it's showtime).
Guitarists are egocentrics, and think, they are the most important
part of the band. I never met a "normal" guitarist, and i met a lot,
and hey i was one of them.
Another problem are those big amps. I got the sound i wanted, when
turning the preamp gain around middle, and main volume at 10. Guess
the spl at a 100W JCM900 with a 4x12 cabinet?
Finally at our "gig", the sound guy turned me nearly off on the mixer,
because i was loud enough without a PA.
These monitors cannot replace you baby :-)
Would have been better to buy a little amp. So you can play with the
main amp, but still have normal vol.
One of the most important things too, for a lot of musicians:
I would not have been able to enter stage, without a lot of beers. Way
to nervous, shakinfg the whole day before the gig.
So, bad sound in little clubs, may be more a problem, of unexperienced
and ignorant bands, and especially their guitarists :-)
If you want them to turn down volume, you have to be more of a
psychologist, then a sound guy. If the musicians are quite new, and
did not have many gigs, or if it is their first gig, they will be
nervous, and even you will scare them to death.
I had a lot of respect of this hobby sound guy at our gig, but i
simply was too drunken, to do what he wanted.
Was our first and our last gig.
Did not play guitar for 7 years now:-)
>muddy. The guitarists like to use too much distortion so that definitely
>doesn't help things one bit.
Oh, that helps a lot in many cases. When they use distortion to mask
their bad playing. I did that too, simply because i was not able to
play some clean tones. With distortion it sounded nice :-)
CU
Martin
Keith Broughton
Never heard the truth put so well!
You have hit the facts right on the money!!
How loud you play, what range you play in and what you DON'T play all work
to create the either magic or "sonic sludge"
It's not just a matter of "fixing the mix"
George Gleason
>
> I don't drink and even if I did I wouldn't drink on a gig. My
observations
> coincide with yours though- most bands have members that are inebriated by
> the second set. I saw a band once that actual had bottles of hard liquor
up
> on stage and drank between songs
Not a preacher I don't even play one on the Internet but Many great and
famous musicians partook of the demon alcohol on stage from time to time
(before they died) Greg Allman and Janis Joplin are the first that come to
mind. There is a long connection between altered consciousness and great
music-as well as a long connection to problems such abuse brings with it.
Hank William's, Jaco Pastorious, Jerry Garcia,Robert Johnson,Keith Richards
so the mere presence of a bottle of whisky is not the be all or end all to
music
George Gleason
>
Phildo
"George Gleason" <g.p.g...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:MEYE5.1098$9T4....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Not a preacher I don't even play one on the Internet but Many great
and
> famous musicians partook of the demon alcohol on stage from time to
time
> (before they died) Greg Allman and Janis Joplin are the first that
come to
> mind. There is a long connection between altered consciousness and
great
> music-as well as a long connection to problems such abuse brings with
it.
> Hank William's, Jaco Pastorious, Jerry Garcia,Robert Johnson,Keith
Richards
> so the mere presence of a bottle of whisky is not the be all or end
all to
> music
You could always do what Axl Rose did and have a Jack Daniels bottle
filled with cold lemon tea on stage. Then again alcohol may calm the
nerves but a lot of people think they play better on alcohol with is a
complete crock. It's like saying a few drinks make you drive better and
the only person you're fooling is yourself and not that nice man with
the flashing blue lights on his car asking you to blow into the little
balloon he's carrying.
As for the club sound thing, the best thing I ever did was to go back
and mix in shitty clubs for a while. I was just getting over the
accident and didn't want to tour so I went to work in some of the LA
clubs. It sharpens you up no end. Anyone can make a $million sound
system sound reasonable but if you want to make a cheap system sound
good then you really have to work and pay attention. My time spent going
back to clubs has made me ten times the engineer I was before.
Phildo
Ironfist
> as I've observed, usually starts when they walk thru the door to setup.
> >
> > I don't drink and even if I did I wouldn't drink on a gig. My
> observations
> > coincide with yours though- most bands have members that are inebriated
by
> > the second set. I saw a band once that actual had bottles of hard
liquor
> up
> > on stage and drank between songs
>
> famous musicians partook of the demon alcohol on stage from time to time
> (before they died) Greg Allman and Janis Joplin are the first that come
to
> mind. There is a long connection between altered consciousness and great
> music-as well as a long connection to problems such abuse brings with it.
> Hank William's, Jaco Pastorious, Jerry Garcia,Robert Johnson,Keith
Richards
> so the mere presence of a bottle of whisky is not the be all or end all to
> music
I understand that musicians have performed well while somewhat intoxicated
but I believe they could be better if they were sober. According to Time
Life's account on Hank Williams, he drank so much that usually his live
performances degenerated into shambles after a few songs. I do agree with
you about the bottle of whisky not being the be all/end all though. It's
just that when lousy musicians start drinking, they can only get worse.
Joe.
GK
them even had their own PA. In that case they all sounded like our little
"get by" PA. Must be what the club owners want.
GK
"Mike Borkhuis" <bork...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bxTE5.1122$C52.2...@typhoon1.nyroc.rr.com...
GK
> >
> I got talked into a run sound for free beer thing. Was bad for everyone
all around.
> Bar owner couldn't understand it when I told him, "you want me to do
sound, pay
> me, you want me to drink I'll do it away from the board." No sense in
getting myself
> a reputation as an incompetent drunk.
>
I don't think I could drink enough to equal what I expect for payment. I
tried once and passed out after about $35. worth of tab was run up. That was
a long time ago, though. Usually about 3 draft Bass per night is just fine
for me. I usually don't start on them until after sound check or whenever
things seem to be worked out and the band is comfortable on stage. Gimme
cash to pay me for my work and I'll do my drinking on my own time. The free
food thing is a different matter, though.
GK
Mike Borkhuis
Ahhhh yes... Free food is a good thing. Except thta I'm a picky eater...
:P
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Phildo
"Dinsdale" <dins...@piranhaSPAMbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:8s12us$blm$1...@news.jump.net...
> I got talked into a run sound for free beer thing. Was bad for
everyone all around.
> Bar owner couldn't understand it when I told him, "you want me to do
sound, pay
> me, you want me to drink I'll do it away from the board." No sense in
getting myself
> a reputation as an incompetent drunk.
>
of a lot of root beer to make it worth my while.
Phildo
Mike Borkhuis
> of a lot of root beer to make it worth my while.
Last job I did, the bar manager was quite surprised with me.... He
offered me the usual free drinks... I said thanks. Then preceded to ask him
for a pitcher of ice water and a glass.... He looked at me quite puzzled and
asked if that was all I wanted. I said yup... Told him I didn't want to get
dehydrated (I was sweating like a pig from the load in) and that I rarely
drink, let alone drink on the job.
He smiled (knowing I wasn't going to cost him much), shook his head in
disbelief and walked away......
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
mri...@my-deja.com
"Mike Borkhuis" <bork...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
setup, I was
> told that I was expected to drink while I mixed... I said sure, as
long as
> it's water. They laughed and said nope.... I said if that's the way
you want
> it, I'm out'a here. They didn't believe me till I started packing up.
Ended
> up they conceeded and I stayed....
> Funny thing though. At the end of the nite they all complimented
me and
> said it was the best sound they've ever had. Can't imagine why... ;)
You know, I stayed out of the local music scene for a number or years
because of a phenomenon similar to this. Every audition would end with
them wanting to spark one up. I'd given the stuff up years before that.
I drink heavily at times, but not while playing. Music and
mind-altering substances don't mix, IMO.
But there was this expectation that you'd participate in the excesses
along with the rest of the band. I invariably got branded as a stuffed
shirt. Years later, I keep running into musicians who've given up
drinking altogether because it was that or die. I can still have a beer
or two, I can still do shots of tequila when it's appropriate, I can
still *not* do those things when I'm playing. IOW, it's still a choice
for me. It's not really a choice for a lot of those guys. I like
having choices.
--
Michael Riehle http://www.mriehle.com
http://www.allnightmusic.com
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
SRC
snare drums. Man they are loud. How many times
have you guys done gig's where you haven't even
had the snare in the mix cause it was so loud on stage? Guitarists are
definitely guilty as well.
Scott/SRC
GK
I carry my own mikes for the whole stage and clips for the drum kit. Clips
cause less clutter on already crowded club stages than do stands. My own
mikes may or may not be any better quality than the house mikes, but mine
are definitely treated better and work consistently. If left up to most
house guys, they would put a SM57 on our guitar cabinet and this particular
rig sounds real raspy with a SM57. My own condensor mike is my preference
for guitar and makes everyones night easier.
If you are doing regular work for a band that has some talent and potential,
but can't get the message, try taping a few of their shows from audience
mikes and let them listen to it. If the band really cares about what they
are doing, they'll pay attention to the tape and tighten up their show.
Dinsdale
>
>> >
>> I got talked into a run sound for free beer thing. Was bad for everyone
> all around.
>> Bar owner couldn't understand it when I told him, "you want me to do
> sound, pay
>> me, you want me to drink I'll do it away from the board." No sense in
> getting myself
>> a reputation as an incompetent drunk.
>>
>
> tried once and passed out after about $35. worth of tab was run up. That was
> a long time ago, though. Usually about 3 draft Bass per night is just fine
> for me. I usually don't start on them until after sound check or whenever
> things seem to be worked out and the band is comfortable on stage. Gimme
> food thing is a different matter, though.
>
That was the problem, even at patron cost of 3 bucks a guinness I was only
making 24 dollars for the whole night, and after about 15 dollars worth I wasn't
very useful or attentive. Divided by 5 hours...worked out to less than 5 bucks
an hour if I wanted to do a lousy job. Two or three pints for the whole night and
I was working for between 2 and 3, which definitely didn't seem worth it. :^)
Mike Borkhuis
True, them snares (and the associated drummer) are loud... BUT at least a
snare hit is a short thingy... Not like a guitar amp set on kill and played
all nite long that loud.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Reese Thomas
>
> I got a last minute call to do a bar band... Once there and setup, I was
>told that I was expected to drink while I mixed... I said sure, as long as
>it's water. They laughed and said nope.... I said if that's the way you want
>it, I'm out'a here. They didn't believe me till I started packing up. Ended
>up they conceeded and I stayed....
> Funny thing though. At the end of the nite they all complimented me and
>said it was the best sound they've ever had. Can't imagine why... ;)
>
>
there, none in my area could or would afford me,) I meet one of the
bartenders, tell them I am diabetic, can't drink, and if someone buys me one,
just make me a diet coke with club soda in a rocks glass. Everybody's happy,
the club (money) the bartender (tip) the guy who bought (hell he bought me a
drink,) and me (I can still function at 1:45 am) Then after the show,
sometimes a miraculous cure............
Curt Wells
stuff. I am the house guy at The Star Community Bar here in Atlanta, and am
quite proud of the sound there. I also do about 150 days a year on the road
(Us, europe, brazil) with a band called Man Or Astroman? and we typically
play venues from 100-1000.
1. I disagree with the "Low Volume and Put it in the monitors" mentality-
Monitors in small clubs typically suck and vocals get lost quickly- I make
the bands do a quick jam with no mics or monitors during soundcheck and have
them sculpt their sound. My typical line is, "Assume I am the worst flippin'
soundguy ever. Make your band sound as good as you possibly can right now.
Talk amongst yourselves." Bands will usually respond well to this line of
thought.
2. Guitarist still too loud? I love this gag: Feed a little bit back into
his monitor at him. He will ask 'Could you take my guitar out of the
monitor' Lie and reply 'Your guitar is not in the monitor- that is bleed
onto the vocal mics cuz youre so loud.' if he doesn't respond, put it into
ALL of the monitors til his bandmats wanna kick his ass if he doesn't turn
down.
3. If you have subgroups, try compressing the vocals as a group. a few good
reasons for this- one when only one cat is singing, the compressor isn't
hitting that hard so he comes thru clearer, but if a few join in for the
choruses, the level doesn't increase cuz the compressor kicks in harder.
two, often you are sending to the monitors from the channel, and compression
will make feedback more likely because of the overall gain increase of the
noise floor (Pro guys- I don't think 'Noise Floor' is the right term, but
its the best I can think of- someone wanna help me out?). not compressing
on the channel is better for the monitors, IMHO. do it on a subgroup. in my
setup, I also have an overall EQ for the group before the compression that I
use as a High-Pass filter at 150 Hz, which makes my overall comp kick in
less too. most rock acts don't suffer from this. on Quieter nights where
the vocals are more noticable, I put some of the lows back in, but this is
Okay since I am not cranking the system anyway. We get some great Girls in
the club- If you see Kelly Hogan or Neko Case coming your way, go see their
sets.
A few tips for small club sound guys:
4.Small club guys should learn the difference between Instrument Cable and
Speaker Cable! The amount of times I run across monitors patched together
with cheap crappy guitar cables with molded plastic ends is disgusting.
5. Just because there are 31 sliders on an EQ doesn't mean you have to use
them all. Heck when the fewest possible ae used I'm happier. I get to so
many clubs where EQs that were pieces of Sh*t when they came out in 1982 are
in line with the monitors and they look like a Redneck Dental Exam. Last
month I flattened a monitor EQ and pressed 'Bypass' befor starting mycheck
and the house guy was FLOORED over how good the vocals were coming thru -
"Wow! Lemme write down your settings on that EQ!!!" was the quote. Uhh, its
the bypass button, Einstein.
6. Clean your freakin stage, Chucklehead! Just like the brown M&Ms were
indicators of how a gig was going to go, A stage with Cigarette buts,
smashed bottles kicked into the corner, and last nights cables strewn about
says "The house guy is a moron who doesn't give a snot." It really only
takes a few minutes at the end of the night, and you can even do it stoned
AND drunk. not that tough.
7. Get there on time and have proper amount of time to get everything done.
I'm sorry the club doesn't pay you the big bucks, and arriving late is your
lame protest, but arriving on time makes your day more pleasant and makes
the band relaxed. relaxed band = better performing band = easier night.
I happen to have the Killer Stuation of the club owners are great cats who
understand that good sound in their club is as important as the air
conditioning. One of 'em worked at a club where the sound wasn't taken
seriously and he saw the fact that beer sales were lost when people would
leave the club to go down the street cuz the sound sucked. people would
watch the one band they came to see and not stick around. He also treats
bands real well for a similar reason- guys in bands like to go to bars where
they feel like bigshots, and guys in bands often drink plenty when they are
not playing. On any decent night at the Star, there are loads of cats in
other bands hanging out- a few are even playing down the street, but prefer
to Hang at the Star cuz "Man, the Sound is so awful at that other club!"
Well, that's enough outta me. If you're ever in Atlanta, stop by and give
me a kick in the pants. I'll buy the drinks.
Curt.
Tim Willets
>Another problem are those big amps. I got the sound i wanted, when
>turning the preamp gain around middle, and main volume at 10. Guess
>the spl at a 100W JCM900 with a 4x12 cabinet?
20-odd years ago 100watt amps were needed to be loud enough as PAs weren't
what they are nowadays. For some reason the 100W guitar amp is still
regarded as the "industry standard" - but if you want power-stage
distortion (instead of buzzy pre-amp fuzz) 100 watts is to big and
too loud for most places. I find a small (15-30 watts amp) turned up
pretty high works fine - I can hear it, I can crank it to where it
works best - and it doesn't drown the PA.
>Finally at our "gig", the sound guy turned me nearly off on the mixer,
>because i was loud enough without a PA.
One guy at a club once told me my 15watt amp was far too loud and was
drowning his 8K PA rig....
The next time I played there I took along my old Super-Lead, turned it
well up....and he said the guitar sat in the mix really well.
>These monitors cannot replace you baby :-)
>Would have been better to buy a little amp. So you can play with the
>main amp, but still have normal vol.
Guitarist's saga:
Aged 17 own a Fender Princeton, AC15 or similar small valve amp.
Aged 20 sell small amp, buy big Marshall/Twin.
Aged 30 upgrade to Mesa or similar big amp.
Aged 40 remember how good small valve amp sounded and how it could
be run flat out at a sensible volume. Hunt down Princeton/whatever
and find the amp you traded 20 years ago for a few quid/bucks now attracts
vintage price tags.
>One of the most important things too, for a lot of musicians:
>I would not have been able to enter stage, without a lot of beers. Way
>to nervous, shakinfg the whole day before the gig.
With nerves that bad you'd probably not have been exactly great with
or without the beer :)
On the other hand, don't matter who you are or how experienced, some
gigs/venues still make you shake - whether you're playing guitar
or a mixing desk.
>>muddy. The guitarists like to use too much distortion so that definitely
>>doesn't help things one bit.
I reckon amp manufacturers are at least partly to blame - most of the more
recent amp designs (the ones with "overdrive" channels) seem to give
two sounds - very stiff and clean, or huge amounts of gain and fuzz. The
"crunchy chords, clean single note" kind of sound seems to get missed
off the specs.
Tim
George Gleason
was
> told that I was expected to drink while I mixed
I have been involed with some bands that expect you to acid to mix them BOY
did we have fun lol
George
Steve K
martin...@kar.magwien.gv.at (martin heller) wrote:
> Guitarists are egocentrics, and think, they are the most important
> part of the band.
Maybe that's because the guitarist IS THE BAND.
The bass guitar and drums are the concrete, joists, sheetrock, nails, etc.
The guitarist is the fine carpet, the fine paint, the grandfather clock in
the hallway, the leather couch, the lighting. Anything that makes that
house different from the next house. You change guitarists, the whole soul
of the band has changed.
Not to say this should give any guitarist an upper hand, but I'm sure some
feel with all that "power" they can be buttheads.
Phildo
"Steve K" <sm...@Cornellx.edux> wrote in message
news:smk17-12100...@132.236.38.105...
> In article <97124903...@mozart.adv.magwien.gv.at>,
> martin...@kar.magwien.gv.at (martin heller) wrote:
>
> > Guitarists are egocentrics, and think, they are the most important
> > part of the band.
>
>
> Maybe that's because the guitarist IS THE BAND.
What are you on? Whatever it is I want some. Obviously blows licking
frogs away and right now I could do with some delusional escapism like
that :>)
Phildo
Phildo
I couldn't believe Adrian Sherwood when I was working with Little Axe
(Skip McDonald, Keith LeBlanc, Doug Wimbush etc).He was mixing FOH
although was considered part of the band and was popping Es like
smarties. They really mess up your hearing so how he got such a good mix
I don't know.
Maybe it's time to resurrect an old post from yesteryear:
You can always tell what drug a sound engineer is on:
Weed - muffled sound, no high end
Coke or speed - all high end, no lows
Acid - lots of weird delays and effects going on
Ecstacy - the engineer is either hugging/proposing to a subwoofer (been
there, done that) or is in the middle of the audience dancing.
PCP/Angel Dust - the engineer is currently taking on allcomers outside
the venue and is incurring some serious hospital expenses through
insulting the security staff
Alcohol - the engineer is chatting up some dodgy-looking "women" at the
bar.
Valium - the engineer is asleep at the desk while the 3.15khz feedback
is causing everyone's ears to bleed.
Phildo
Robert C. Gilbert
> 2. Guitarist still too loud? I love this gag: Feed a little bit back into
> his monitor at him. He will ask 'Could you take my guitar out of the
> monitor' Lie and reply 'Your guitar is not in the monitor- that is bleed
> onto the vocal mics cuz youre so loud.' if he doesn't respond, put it into
> ALL of the monitors til his bandmats wanna kick his ass if he doesn't turn
> down.
<<<LOL>>>. A stroke of GENIUS!
--
Robert C. Gilbert // Business Cards Plus Graphic Design
Fon: (306) 373-9438 Fax: (306) 477-2494
ICQ#: 74738683 email: bcp...@home.com
Personal -WWW-: http://members.home.net/bcpgd/ IBO#: 0867122
Business -WWW-: http://www.Quixtar.com Password: ebiz
Mike Borkhuis
> there, none in my area could or would afford me,) I meet one of the
> bartenders, tell them I am diabetic, can't drink, and if someone buys me
one,
> just make me a diet coke with club soda in a rocks glass. Everybody's happy,
> the club (money) the bartender (tip) the guy who bought (hell he bought me a
> drink,) and me (I can still function at 1:45 am) Then after the show,
> sometimes a miraculous cure............
Well, in the case I mentioned, it was the usual (around here anyways) free
tab for the band..... They, the band, expected me to go drink for drink with
them all night long. NOT!!! Funny, the band leader didn't mention that when
he booked me... :P
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Mike Borkhuis
Thanks, I was telling a local guy about this... Haven't had the time to
dig it up.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Mike Borkhuis
> because i was loud enough without a PA.
OK, standard operating procedure... For me anyways.
Mic guitar cabinets because, #1 I was asked to (or required by the
band)... #2 so I can put it in the monitors.... When setting up the board,
leave the guitar channels ALL the way down in the FOH mix.... During sound
check, ask guitar players to turn down because they're too loud out front...
When asked, reply "because you're guitar(s) are louder then the mains and I DO
NOT have the guitars in the mains." Persist amongst arguments like "I need it
that loud to FEEL the music" and "I can barely hear it now." Feed enough of
their guitar into the monitors to make them think they're amp is too loud, so
they turn it down.
I thought about making a couple of guitar amp stands that are about....
4-5ft high. Put the amp on that blasting into the back of their head.
Probably won't work, but at least then they won't be blasting the people in
the front rows. Either that or get a couple of the metal kick back style amp
stands......
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Mike Borkhuis
> feel with all that "power" they can be buttheads.
Perhaps, but a PA toting sound guy has more power (and potential to be a
prick) than he does.....
Not that I'm trying to start a pissing (or loud volume, hearing loosing)
contest....
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Mike Borkhuis
> 4-5ft high. Put the amp on that blasting into the back of their head.
> Probably won't work, but at least then they won't be blasting the people in
> the front rows. Either that or get a couple of the metal kick back style
amp
> stands......
Almost forgot, I did a gig once where a guitar player had (and used) one
of these with a small amp... We were talking about it before hand and he
mentioned that even though he missed the feel and sound of the larger amp, he
was getting complaints from the sound guys that he was too loud. So,
reluctantly, he switched to the small rig and has learned to live with it....
Come sound check time, he cranks it up. Hmmmm... Sounds kind'a loud to
me... So, I took a SPL measurement on it. I was getting 100-105dB about 25'
in front of the stage... :P
And this is the quiet one.....
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Mike Borkhuis
> compression will make feedback more likely because of the overall
> gain increase of the noise floor (Pro guys- I don't think 'Noise Floor'
> is the right term, but its the best I can think of- someone wanna help
> me out?).
More properly known as 'gain before feedback'... If you set the gain with
the compressor reducing it, you can run into problems when the gain reduction
goes away if the system is running close to that point. So, if you're singing
away, with the compresser squishing the group (in your case), all is well...
Once they stop, the gain goes up and FEEDBACK!!!!
> not compressing on the channel is better for the monitors, IMHO. do
> it on a subgroup.
OR, if you have enough channels available, you could split the mic into
two channels and use one (with compression) for the mains and the other
(without) for the monitors.
> in my setup, I also have an overall EQ for the group before the
> compression that I use as a High-Pass filter at 150 Hz, which makes my
> overall comp kick in less too. most rock acts don't suffer from this. on
> Quieter nights where the vocals are more noticable, I put some of the
> lows back in, but this is Okay since I am not cranking the system anyway.
The low cut filter (and perhaps the low and/or mid EQ) on the channels
would also work for this....
> 5. Just because there are 31 sliders on an EQ doesn't mean you have to use
> them all. Heck when the fewest possible ae used I'm happier.
Course, that depends on how well the system sounds 'un-EQed'.....
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
George Gleason
Mike Borkhuis <bork...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7vvF5.10284$JS3.2...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> > I thought about making a couple of guitar amp stands that are
about....
> > 4-5ft high. Put the amp on that blasting into the back of their head.
>
Mike , Marshall already did that its called a "full stack"
George
David
get these last minute gigs where I was dropped in on short notice. I would
find the EQ set to what I know call 'panic curve', everything down. Not
knowing better I would bring everything up to 0, take out the problem
frequencies and leave the rest alone. I got a reputation as a good monitor
guy cause the bands would love the fact that they would get a "full" sound.
I am still amazed when I see everything down and the sound guy still
complains about the sh*tty monitors that feed all the time.
I think the main point of being a good tech is that if you treat your job
professionally and act accordingly alot of the problems that other guys have
tend not to occur.
Arkady
->>>doesn't help things one bit.
->
->I reckon amp manufacturers are at least partly to blame - most of the more
->recent amp designs (the ones with "overdrive" channels) seem to give
->two sounds - very stiff and clean, or huge amounts of gain and fuzz. The
->"crunchy chords, clean single note" kind of sound seems to get missed
->off the specs.
->
->Tim
The kind of distortion you are talking about here has to due with
compression level within the guitar amp. It's my experiance that most
solid state amps do what you describe. With an all tube amp you can set
your master volume level on the amp to the point that you get the amount
of power-amp distortion/overall volume you want. Then adjust the preamp
acordingly (I usually cranked mine)
Then with the volume on the guitar, adjust the amount of input into your
pre-amp tubes. So, with the twist of your volume you can go clean and
still be very warm sounding. Start digging into the strings and you get
that much loved dirty/clean sound, then crank the volume on the guitar for
heavy distortion.
Also, a good EQ running before your preamp and a compressor after your
pre-amp (For those eddie van halen heavy gain tones) help alot too.
Just two cents from a guitar player.
Oh, and buy a damned power soak if you have one of monster 4x12 amps. That
way you can crank the thing to get you tubes nice and hot and still keep
it at a decent volume.
Jason
Arkady
->In article <97124903...@mozart.adv.magwien.gv.at>,
->martin...@kar.magwien.gv.at (martin heller) wrote:
->
->> Guitarists are egocentrics, and think, they are the most important
->> part of the band.
->
->
->Maybe that's because the guitarist IS THE BAND.
->
->The bass guitar and drums are the concrete, joists, sheetrock, nails, etc.
->
->The guitarist is the fine carpet, the fine paint, the grandfather clock in
->the hallway, the leather couch, the lighting. Anything that makes that
->house different from the next house. You change guitarists, the whole soul
->of the band has changed.
->
->Not to say this should give any guitarist an upper hand, but I'm sure some
->feel with all that "power" they can be buttheads.
Ummmm WRONG! The guitarist is just that, a guitarist. My bassplayer can
be "the fine carpet... yatta yatta" if that is what the piece calls
for. So can I on Keys or Guitar. And for that matter so can my DJ with a
piece of vinal and a mixer. The point here is you are in a band... as in
band of musicians. It's a team. You play your part, the next guy adds his
etc etc untill you are all creating a sonic picture.
That picture always sucks when you have some idiot who paints nothing but
neon red all night long... get my drift?
Jason
mikeof...@hotmail.com
Why do I get the feeling your a guitarist...
wizkid
Curt Wells
>> compression that I use as a High-Pass filter at 150 Hz, which makes my
>> overall comp kick in less too. most rock acts don't suffer from this.
on
>> Quieter nights where the vocals are more noticable, I put some of the
>> lows back in, but this is Okay since I am not cranking the system anyway.
>
> The low cut filter (and perhaps the low and/or mid EQ) on the channels
>would also work for this....
Yeah, but then it also reduces the low end in the monitors then.
Curt.
Mike Marlow
> I thought about making a couple of guitar amp stands that are
about....
> 4-5ft high. Put the amp on that blasting into the back of their head.
> Probably won't work, but at least then they won't be blasting the people
in
> the front rows. Either that or get a couple of the metal kick back style
amp
> stands......
>
These are actually a pretty good option (the kick back stands). I keep mine
by my monitor, and pointed at me. (mic'd of course). Gives me all the
sound I need to hear from my guitar, but keeps the mix available for me to
hear at the same time. Lets me control myself in the mix to some degree.
Works fine as long as the sound guy is working as hard at mixing the FOH as
he is at satisfying our requests for monitor mix. Sometimes that's the case
and sometimes it's not.
-Mike-
mike....@usa.net
Mike Borkhuis
> mine by my monitor, and pointed at me. (mic'd of course).
Most of the guys around here balk at that idea (or putting the amp on the
side behind the main speakers).... "I have to have my amp HERE (pointing
about 8-12' behind them on the stage).... That's the only place it works for
me." Makes a sound guy want to pimp-slap some musicians.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Mike Borkhuis
> >would also work for this....
>
> Yeah, but then it also reduces the low end in the monitors then.
Huh??? Most of the time we're using pre-fader auxes (which are usually
pre-EQ) for the monitors... Not to mention that a lot of monitors won't do
low end real well.
Also, you'll get 'wraparound' from the subs. That'll give the band the
low end that they want without the monitors.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
jpen...@mailbox.bellatlantic.net
> 2. Guitarist still too loud? I love this gag: Feed a little bit back into
> his monitor at him. He will ask 'Could you take my guitar out of the
> monitor' Lie and reply 'Your guitar is not in the monitor- that is bleed
> onto the vocal mics cuz youre so loud.' if he doesn't respond, put it into
> ALL of the monitors til his bandmats wanna kick his ass if he doesn't turn
> down.
>
>
Curt,
99% of the time I am able to accomidate the performers without being
devious : ) However, on occasions when I use this method, I also turn down the
vocals in the monitors. This usually motivates the lead singer to convince the
offending party to turn down. The effectiveness of this tactic is directly
proportionate to the size of the singer's ego. Take care,
JP
Arkady
On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 mikeof...@hotmail.com wrote:
->In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.001013...@use.usit.net>,
-> ark...@REMOVETHESPAM.usit.net wrote:
->> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Steve K wrote:
->>
->> ->In article <97124903...@mozart.adv.magwien.gv.at>,
->> ->martin...@kar.magwien.gv.at (martin heller) wrote:
->> ->
->> ->> Guitarists are egocentrics, and think, they are the most important
->> ->> part of the band.
->> ->
->> ->
->> ->Maybe that's because the guitarist IS THE BAND.
->> ->
->> ->The bass guitar and drums are the concrete, joists, sheetrock,
->nails, etc.
->> ->
->> ->The guitarist is the fine carpet, the fine paint, the grandfather
->clock in
->> ->the hallway, the leather couch, the lighting. Anything that makes
->that
->> ->house different from the next house. You change guitarists, the
->whole soul
->> ->of the band has changed.
->> ->
->> ->Not to say this should give any guitarist an upper hand, but I'm
->sure some
->> ->feel with all that "power" they can be buttheads.
->>
->
->Why do I get the feeling your a guitarist...
->wizkid
->
->
->Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
->Before you buy.
->
Tim Willets
>
> Almost forgot, I did a gig once where a guitar player had (and used) one
>of these with a small amp... We were talking about it before hand and he
>mentioned that even though he missed the feel and sound of the larger amp,
Having used small amps for a few years now I find a big amp lacks the sound
and feel (especially power stage compression) I'm used to...probably because
it's impossible to turn a big amp up to the point it really starts to work well
unless the gig is in a big room or outdoors (and outdoors everything tends to
sound puny).
he
>was getting complaints from the sound guys that he was too loud. So,
>reluctantly, he switched to the small rig and has learned to live with it....
> Come sound check time, he cranks it up. Hmmmm... Sounds kind'a loud to
>me... So, I took a SPL measurement on it. I was getting 100-105dB about 25'
>in front of the stage...
Quite possible, consider how little difference there is in volume between 100
and 50 watt amps - a Super-Lead 100watter won't drown out an AC30 or Bassman,
and speaker efficiency plays a part of course. Add to that how directional
some cabs are (a 4x12" is a bit like a searchlight - wander off to the side
of it and the volume drops very quickly - but 20 feet in front of the cab
your ears bleed). the last time I had to use an amp provided by the engager
they supplied a JCM800 combo, which (apart from not having the tone I wanted)
was not as (subjectively?) loud as the Laney LC15 (cheap, but great tone with
NOS valves in it) I use a lot. If I played metal I suppose I may need a bigger
amp, but I doubt it.
Get a civilised drummer and a tilt stand for a combo and 15-30 watts does fine
for playing blues/r'n'b/rock and roll - if you need more (or the band want more
guitar) then put it through the monitors.
Tim
D. Show
it but too much reflected sound came off the back walls and contributed to a
lot of mud out front (mid and bass, no highs) so we discontinued that.
Recently we have been putting our amps off to the side. We are a two guitar
band and this has made our soundman happy as he can actually put us in the
mains in even smaller rooms. It also gives me more control of dynamics such
as feedback as I can face the amp without turning my back to the audience.
It is true that with a huge amp or several stacks this effect can be
achieved but the volume is way out of control that way unless one is in a
large hall. As a guitar player I would love to do that and do nothing but
large rooms but the real world is that it is more practical for me to
continue to learn how to get the best sound in a small venue and let the
sound engineer adjust for the room size. It also lets the Vocals come
through which regardless of the size of the guitarists ego is what most
people relate to.
Mike Borkhuis <bork...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Aq%F5.18694$JS3.3...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
mikeof...@my-deja.com
was talking about. Sorry.
hank alrich
> > These are actually a pretty good option (the kick back stands). I keep
> > mine by my monitor, and pointed at me. (mic'd of course).
> Most of the guys around here balk at that idea (or putting the amp on the
> side behind the main speakers).... "I have to have my amp HERE (pointing
> about 8-12' behind them on the stage).... That's the only place it works for
> me." Makes a sound guy want to pimp-slap some musicians.
The other side of that coin is that when playing in a fully amplified
configuration I often like to have all our amps behind us in a line and
all the musos a good distance in front of them, such that we all hear
each other's level and together work toward a nicely balanced level
right on stage. Having a good balance within the ensemble always seems
to beget better music.
--
hank alrich * secret__mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
Christopher Lavigne
Our lead guitarist in the worship team has a Peavey Classic 50 (all
tube) on his Strat. Stage volume's
a really big thing, because even though we do pretty heavy style stuff, it
is a church and people don't
like it any more than 90 dB at FOH (we get a lot of blast off the stage in
our little place).
What we did this morning, something like you had suggested, was take a
couple of our unused Yamaha
12" club series speakers (not good for much anyway) and place them behind
the main stage right FOH tripod,
and put his Classic 50 on top. That way he had it almost shoulder-level and
got what he though was a pretty
sweet looking "stack" pointing at him and away from the audience.
Chris Lavigne
Grace Harvest Church
Saint John, NB Canada
> Most of the guys around here balk at that idea (or putting the amp on
the
> side behind the main speakers).... "I have to have my amp HERE (pointing
> about 8-12' behind them on the stage).... That's the only place it works
for
> me." Makes a sound guy want to pimp-slap some musicians.
>
> Mike Borkhuis
> Worship Technology
>
>
>
Mike Borkhuis
> configuration I often like to have all our amps behind us in a line and
> all the musos a good distance in front of them, such that we all hear
> each other's level and together work toward a nicely balanced level
> right on stage. Having a good balance within the ensemble always
> seems to beget better music.
True enough... But, the same can be accomplished using monitors at a
lower stage volume, making for a better FOH sound... Course, that's assuming
that the band is willing to work with the sound guy AND the sound guy can
deliver the goods.
The biggist thing that get's me is that the amps are shooting at their
feet.... So they turn it up... They forget that it shoots right past their
feet and blasts out the audience (because it's soo loud). Doesn't help that
it's all upper midrange stuff that CUTS thru everthing... :P
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Tim Willets
>->>>muddy. The guitarists like to use too much distortion so that definitely
>->>>doesn't help things one bit.
>->
>->I reckon amp manufacturers are at least partly to blame - most of the more
>->recent amp designs (the ones with "overdrive" channels) seem to give
>->two sounds - very stiff and clean, or huge amounts of gain and fuzz. The
>->"crunchy chords, clean single note" kind of sound seems to get missed
>->off the specs.
>->
>->Tim
>
>
>The kind of distortion you are talking about here has to due with
>compression level within the guitar amp.
Yes - but the point at which the compression occurs is important, and makes
a difference.
>It's my experiance that most
>solid state amps do what you describe.
So do most valve-amps (e.g Marshalls from the JCM800 onwards, the higher
gain settings on the Fender HotRods, and so on).
>With an all tube amp you can set
>your master volume level on the amp to the point that you get the amount
>of power-amp distortion/overall volume you want. Then adjust the preamp
>acordingly (I usually cranked mine)
There aren't that many all-valve amps out there any more - most modern
"valve" amps have a good scattering of transistors and ICs in the signal
path.
Using the controls in effect reversed (turn up the master then control the
overall volume with the pre-amp gain) does help some
>Then with the volume on the guitar, adjust the amount of input into your
>pre-amp tubes. So, with the twist of your volume you can go clean and
>still be very warm sounding.
>Start digging into the strings and you get
>that much loved dirty/clean sound, then crank the volume on the guitar for
>heavy distortion.
Indeed.
>
>Also, a good EQ running before your preamp and a compressor after your
>pre-amp (For those eddie van halen heavy gain tones) help alot too.
I prefer guitar->Fender reverb -> amp myself. Let the power stage
do the compressing (and the location of the amp's eq is one of the big
differences between Fender and Marshall of course). For a crunchy sound
use a small amp, for a clean sound use a bigger amp. In either case the
volume should be low enough not to interfere with the PA (in all but small
venues, which are often best hadled using backline with the PA as
reinforcement where needed anyway).
>
>Just two cents from a guitar player.
>
>Oh, and buy a damned power soak if you have one of monster 4x12 amps. That
>way you can crank the thing to get you tubes nice and hot and still keep
>it at a decent volume.
Or hook a 15watt amp up to a 4x12 with greenbacks fitted. Works very well.
Tim
>
NecrOmaN
(not by smashing it on the ground... but by "playing" it)
NecrOmaN
Mike Borkhuis <bork...@rochester.rr.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
x_aF5.6528$JS3.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> > In my experience one of the worst culprits are
> > snare drums. Man they are loud. How many times
> > have you guys done gig's where you haven't even
> > had the snare in the mix cause it was so loud on stage? Guitarists are
> > definitely guilty as well.
>
> True, them snares (and the associated drummer) are loud... BUT at
least a
> snare hit is a short thingy... Not like a guitar amp set on kill and
played
> all nite long that loud.
>
> Mike Borkhuis
> Worship Technology
>
>
Phildo
"NecrOmaN" <necr...@wol.be> wrote in message
news:wi2H5.36098$s31.6...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
> I once had a drummer that completely trashed a new sabian 14" rock
crash...
> (not by smashing it on the ground... but by "playing" it)
>
arm on the cymbal stand.
Not the most subtle of drummers.
Phildo
Phildo
"David Shorter" <dazz...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:39ED90ED...@ihug.co.nz...
> to put Johnny Holmes to shame.
>
They were sticks? I thought he was just using a pair of Canadian
Redwoods trimmed down a bit.
Phildo
Shaun
> They were sticks? I thought he was just using a pair of Canadian
> Redwoods trimmed down a bit.
I know a drummer named Tim Phillips who used to play with homemade sticks
that were whittled down cut-off broom handles. He got an endorsement deal
through (some stick manufacturer, I forget the name), who built a line of
them to his spec's (as a novelty rather than an honest product, IMHO).
This guy is a gangly 6'10" with huge hands and feet. He also plays a
14"x14" snare! Talk about overkill, and LOUD! He'd break Zildjian
platinum cymbals all the time. I never saw his kit without at least one of
them cracked.
--
Shaun K. Wexler,
Hellsgate Sound
http://www.hellsgate-sound.com
David Shorter
> "NecrOmaN" <necr...@wol.be> wrote in message
> news:wi2H5.36098$s31.6...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
> > I once had a drummer that completely trashed a new sabian 14" rock
> crash...
> > (not by smashing it on the ground... but by "playing" it)
> >
> I saw Mel Gaynor from simple minds hit a cymbal and snap the bloody boom
> arm on the cymbal stand.
>
> Not the most subtle of drummers.
>
> Phildo
What do you expect when some drummers use sticks big enough
to put Johnny Holmes to shame.
--
Regards,
David Shorter
DazzReal Sound Labs
Auckland, New Zealand
Any errors in tact, fact or spelling
are entirely due to transmission error.
Arkady
->>Oh, and buy a damned power soak if you have one of monster 4x12 amps. That
->>way you can crank the thing to get you tubes nice and hot and still keep
->>it at a decent volume.
->
->Or hook a 15watt amp up to a 4x12 with greenbacks fitted. Works very well.
->
I used to use a PV bandit practice amp set on clean routing out of my
preamp to an eq then to my PV Roadmaster Head. The damned thing was a 60
cycle hum machine but it sounded like the voice of god at loud levels. My
neighbors hated me.
Chad Wahls
SaTim wrote:
> Star Bar.... Man, I sure miss Tuesday Night Funk. :(
>
> Tampa is just SO lame!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> :)
>
> "Curt Wells" <robob...@mindspring.com> wrote:MisTress, may I reply
> To
> >Actually, Kids- This is where i jump in with my tidbits. I love Small Venue
> >stuff. I am the house guy at The Star Community Bar here in Atlanta, and am
> >quite proud of the sound there. I also do about 150 days a year on the road
> >(Us, europe, brazil) with a band called Man Or Astroman? and we typically
> >play venues from 100-1000.
>
Kids; now,now. The last time I saw that band I heard nothing but shrill vocals,
tinny kick, and lots of ride cymbal. It was my birthday 2 years ago Sept 29, it
hurt so bad that I held the world record for chugging a pint and heading for the
door.
> >
> >1. I disagree with the "Low Volume and Put it in the monitors" mentality-
> >Monitors in small clubs typically suck and vocals get lost quickly- I make
> >the bands do a quick jam with no mics or monitors during soundcheck and have
> >them sculpt their sound. My typical line is, "Assume I am the worst flippin'
> >soundguy ever. Make your band sound as good as you possibly can right now.
> >Talk amongst yourselves." Bands will usually respond well to this line of
> >thought.
>
I always assume myself as part of the band, I listen to the monitors first and
know if they are going to cut the cake. IF they are weak then the band and I
have a long talk. The band will never assume that they are dealing with the
worst soundpuke. I do my best to instill confidence, it's my job.
> >
> >2. Guitarist still too loud? I love this gag: Feed a little bit back into
> >his monitor at him. He will ask 'Could you take my guitar out of the
> >monitor' Lie and reply 'Your guitar is not in the monitor- that is bleed
> >onto the vocal mics cuz youre so loud.' if he doesn't respond, put it into
> >ALL of the monitors til his bandmats wanna kick his ass if he doesn't turn
> >down.
>
Don't f*ck with the band you"may" someday be their "bitch".
> >
> >3. If you have subgroups, try compressing the vocals as a group. a few good
> >reasons for this- one when only one cat is singing, the compressor isn't
> >hitting that hard so he comes thru clearer, but if a few join in for the
> >choruses, the level doesn't increase cuz the compressor kicks in harder.
> >two, often you are sending to the monitors from the channel, and compression
> >will make feedback more likely because of the overall gain increase of the
> >noise floor (Pro guys- I don't think 'Noise Floor' is the right term, but
> >its the best I can think of- someone wanna help me out?). not compressing
> >on the channel is better for the monitors,
On some "good" boards "pre" means Pre. Pre insert also.
> IMHO. do it on a subgroup. in my
> >setup, I also have an overall EQ for the group before the compression that I
> >use as a High-Pass filter at 150 Hz, which makes my overall comp kick in
> >less too. most rock acts don't suffer from this. on Quieter nights where
> >the vocals are more noticable, I put some of the lows back in, but this is
> >Okay since I am not cranking the system anyway. We get some great Girls in
> >the club- If you see Kelly Hogan or Neko Case coming your way, go see their
> >sets.
> >
> >A few tips for small club sound guys:
> >
> >4.Small club guys should learn the difference between Instrument Cable and
> >Speaker Cable! The amount of times I run across monitors patched together
> >with cheap crappy guitar cables with molded plastic ends is disgusting.
>
Not in my house!
> >
> >5. Just because there are 31 sliders on an EQ doesn't mean you have to use
> >them all. Heck when the fewest possible ae used I'm happier. I get to so
> >many clubs where EQs that were pieces of Sh*t when they came out in 1982 are
> >in line with the monitors and they look like a Redneck Dental Exam. Last
> >month I flattened a monitor EQ and pressed 'Bypass' befor starting mycheck
> >and the house guy was FLOORED over how good the vocals were coming thru -
> >"Wow! Lemme write down your settings on that EQ!!!" was the quote. Uhh, its
> >the bypass button, Einstein.
>
Amen, more cuts than boosts, little bits in right places. Proper low end
processing helps that alot.
> >6. Clean your freakin stage, Chucklehead! Just like the brown M&Ms were
> >indicators of how a gig was going to go, A stage with Cigarette buts,
> >smashed bottles kicked into the corner, and last nights cables strewn about
> >says "The house guy is a moron who doesn't give a snot." It really only
> >takes a few minutes at the end of the night, and you can even do it stoned
> >AND drunk. not that tough.
> >
I walked onto a stage at 8:30 AM in a club not too long ago and saw.......CONDOMS
open but unused "whisky dick" I almost retired at an indisclosed age. Freaking
SICK my java seemed un-inviting at that time (amazing).
>
> >7. Get there on time and have proper amount of time to get everything done.
> >I'm sorry the club doesn't pay you the big bucks, and arriving late is your
> >lame protest, but arriving on time makes your day more pleasant and makes
> >the band relaxed. relaxed band = better performing band = easier night.
>
Bingo, be there early, and know your stage plot and input lists.
> >I happen to have the Killer Stuation of the club owners are great cats who
> >understand that good sound in their club is as important as the air
> >conditioning. One of 'em worked at a club where the sound wasn't taken
> >seriously and he saw the fact that beer sales were lost when people would
> >leave the club to go down the street cuz the sound sucked. people would
> >watch the one band they came to see and not stick around. He also treats
> >bands real well for a similar reason- guys in bands like to go to bars where
> >they feel like bigshots, and guys in bands often drink plenty when they are
> >not playing. On any decent night at the Star, there are loads of cats in
> >other bands hanging out- a few are even playing down the street, but prefer
> >to Hang at the Star cuz "Man, the Sound is so awful at that other club!"
> >
Good trick, here it comes... low end sells beer. It excites the human body
because after all this evolution we still do not know how to precieve it. Our
ancestors thought of it as a warning sign. A "good" club system would make a
caveman fill his drawers. Use the power and not the volume and the beer sales
will go through the roof, somebody might get laid, because they could have a
conversation within the bar, makes the band look good.
>
> >Well, that's enough outta me. If you're ever in Atlanta, stop by and give
> >me a kick in the pants. I'll buy the drinks.
> >
> >Curt.
> >
Should be there soon, would love to chew the fat with you, even better news, it's
vacation for me and the wife has the work, come on guys this is rare, I'll buy
drinks just for being a mouthy bitch.
chad
Phildo
"Chad Wahls" <ch...@soltec.net> wrote in message
news:3A3F04A4...@soltec.net...
> Good trick, here it comes... low end sells beer. It excites the human
body
> because after all this evolution we still do not know how to precieve
it.
I'm a bass junkie but also teetotal. How do you explain that?
I do remember the first time I ever too ecstasy though. Spent all night
hugging a subwoofer and was seriously considering proposing to it by the
end of the night :>)
Phildo
Chad Wahls
Phildo wrote:
LOL I've never quite heard it put that way, but oh so true.
Happy Holidays,
Chad