Subs for more bass outside EAW LA400?
Jim B
I am in a band that plays mostly weddings, corportate parties, etc.
Usuallay around 200 people. We are a Rock n Roll horn band.
Inside our rig sounds fine for our purposes. However, when we
ocassionally play outside we don't have enough bottom end outside.
Current setup (And yes I know most of you are not fans of Carvin):
2 Carvin TR1503 3-ways and a QSC RMX 1450 powering each one (Bi amped)
2 Carvin TR1801 subs and a QSC 1500MX powering each one(Bridge Mono)
The crossovers are dbx's and the subs are crossed at about 130hz. I
can't remember the mid/high corssover frequencies.
We are also lucky enough to have a good sound man as well.
I'd Like to take the next step up and get a more "pro" speaker.
I read good things about the LA400.
Do you think the LA400's would help alot (outside)?
How bout the EAW FR250z?
Should I toss (sell/salvage) the subs I have now and replace it or
simply add on to what we have?
I looked at those JBL dual 18's but they are physically big. The
LA400's seemed promising since they were relatively small for subs.
We have a 6X10 trailer.
George Gleason
"Jim B" <jimb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:140ea9e8.04052...@posting.google.com...
> Hello. I am new to this group so be easy on me.
> I am in a band that plays mostly weddings, corportate parties, etc.
> Usuallay around 200 people. We are a Rock n Roll horn band.
> Inside our rig sounds fine for our purposes. However, when we
> ocassionally play outside we don't have enough bottom end outside.
>
>
> Current setup (And yes I know most of you are not fans of Carvin):
>
> 2 Carvin TR1503 3-ways and a QSC RMX 1450 powering each one (Bi amped)
> 2 Carvin TR1801 subs and a QSC 1500MX powering each one(Bridge Mono)
> The crossovers are dbx's and the subs are crossed at about 130hz. I
> can't remember the mid/high corssover frequencies.
> We are also lucky enough to have a good sound man as well.
>
the LA400 have pretty good output but I would not consider using just one a
side
George
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Ralph Staub
> Current setup (And yes I know most of you are not fans of Carvin):
As you expected, you could replace the carvin subs with anything and be
several steps up.
> The crossovers are dbx's and the subs are crossed at about 130hz.
Most subs ar designed to run < 80Hz. 130 is likely a bit high.
> I'd Like to take the next step up and get a more "pro" speaker.
> I read good things about the LA400.
I was impressed with them in the showroom. I've always been a big fan of
front loaded subs, but the LA400 had a good solid punch and is not
fluffy, boxy or hollow like many of the old styles of horn loaded crap
of the past. I've never used the LA400 live, however.
>
> Do you think the LA400's would help alot (outside)?
Absolutely.
> How bout the EAW FR250z?
The SPL of the FR250z is equal to TWO Carvin SW1801's, watt for watt.
The SPL of the LA400 is equal to EIGHT Carvin SW1801's, watt for watt.
The FR250z and the LA400 both weigh 125 lBs. to the Carvin's 93 lBs.
That may help you to make the decision.
> Should I toss (sell/salvage) the subs I have now and replace it or
> simply add on to what we have?
The carvins can be used... as saw horses. :-)
Do not use any other subs in conjunction with the LA400's without having
a separate DSP channel to drive it. If you use the LA400, you'll want a
DSP instead of the standard crossover. All other speakers should be
delayed by 5-6msec. to account for the length of the horn.
> We have a 6X10 trailer.
The LA400 is the sub you need then.
Ralph
Ralph Staub
> Having no experiance with the Carvin stuff I can not compare them
> the LA400 have pretty good output but I would not consider using just one a
> side
> George
George is correct in that they really like to be clustered in pairs or
quads. They're response below 50Hz tends to slope off pretty quickly
when solo, and there's more gain and directionality when they couple up.
That said, there's still a 9dB (8 times) increase from the Carvin to a
stand alone LA400. If you needed a bit extra, you could always use the
Carvins as speaker stands and couple the LA's (in mono) at center stage.
I don't think you'd be disappointed, regardless.
Ralph
Blind Joni
The SB 250's are better sounding IMO..and small.
SPL has a new sub in developement..small, horn loaded..a design I believe they
stumbled across after real world use of the BDeap32's. Worth checking out ..in
a few weeks hopefully.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
Jim B
> Do not use any other subs in conjunction with the LA400's without having
> a separate DSP channel to drive it. If you use the LA400, you'll want a
> DSP instead of the standard crossover. All other speakers should be
> delayed by 5-6msec. to account for the length of the horn.
>
--snip--
Would something like a dbx driverack work?
Blind Joni
>> delayed by 5-6msec. to account for the length of the horn.
>>
>
>
>--snip--
>
>Would something like a dbx driverack work?
I don't think a Driverack PA has enough delay..the 260 does.
Michael Gaster
I did a gig at the variety in Atlanta which had IIRC 8ea EV XLC (line array
boxes) per side and 4 ea LA400 subs...
it was my first time actually mixing on them... I think the way they were
arranged might not have been the best but at no point was I thinking that
they were not good or didn't compliment the system well... LF extension
probably would of been better had they not been in a straight line and
stacked in a 2x2 cube instead to get those horn mouths together... but
perhaps the SR Co. already tried that and it didn't work...or maybe they are
dumbasses (as the dude who owns or is the GM from the co. is a REAL PRICK)
the on site crew were good guys who were very helpful so nothing said bad
about them... the FOH system tech did tell me at sound check to remember
that the subs had 12" drivers and to be careful... I ran the system as I
normally do (full tilt) and all was fine the show sounded great.... matter a
fact here is a link to download one of the audience recordings
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=12982 ( my personal fav
is MOTA and Crocket & tubbs)
Michael
Tom Hole
Maybe the Yorkville LS800P's:
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=2&id=213
Look like a managable size, if not a bit heavy. Price is right at $890
shipped a piece. The amp rack will be a lot lighter.
I have a pair of Yorkville LS1208's that I use for our heavy metal band that
are very good.
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=2&id=152
They are big and heavy but easy to transport. I put a QSC RMX2450 bridged
onto each one and run them pretty hard. They've held up with no issues for
2 years now.
Tom
Tim S Kemp
> Do you think the LA400's would help alot (outside)?
> How bout the EAW FR250z?
> Should I toss (sell/salvage) the subs I have now and replace it or
> simply add on to what we have?
>
> I looked at those JBL dual 18's but they are physically big. The
> LA400's seemed promising since they were relatively small for subs.
> We have a 6X10 trailer.
Yep - LA400s work for me when size is important, they don't sound very big
unless paired though - which brings you back to transit space.
For an alternative to the FR250z (another sub I like quite abit) try the
Turbosound TXD215 double 15 - bit heavy but goes quite well. There's a
double 18 as well but again, we're back in to space issues again.
Shaun
>> Do not use any other subs in conjunction with the LA400's without having
>> a separate DSP channel to drive it. If you use the LA400, you'll want a
>> DSP instead of the standard crossover. All other speakers should be
>> delayed by 5-6msec. to account for the length of the horn.
> Would something like a dbx driverack work?
Yes, I think it has enough delay time. Something I'll add to what Ralph
mentioned was that these LA400's can take a lot of power and go lower than
their "plain vanilla" ratings, which in fact are spec'ed without a DSP (even
though delay is usually required for the top cab's to match up, if stacked).
You'll need at least two LA400's "per side", but even with two of them you
can lay them in front of the stage on their sides, and they'll couple better
as well as eliminate the lobing problem, and it reduces the delay time if
they're sitting ahead of the top cab's.
Something to try before you give up on the Carvins is to reduce your sub/LF
crossover point, and squeeze the most out of the top cab's LF driver, which
will free up a bit of power for the subs. Raise your subsonic filter on the
subs to eliminate as much sub-low as you can tolerate. The "thump" you need
to transfer to people outdoors comes at a higher frequency. No need for all
of the "ass", when you're under equipped. Maximize what you've got. ;)
I've owned LA400's (my main subs are all KF940's), and I can honestly state
that they WILL kick some serious butt, when properly deployed with DSP's...
--
Shaun Wexler,
MacFOH
http://www.macfoh.com
sh...@macfoh.com
Michael Gaster
what is your budget for subs and type of spaces you play?
I might have a good option for you.
Michael
www.liveperformancesolutions.com
Jim B
>
> I might have a good option for you.
>
Budget - Maybe $1000 to $1500 for a pair. I was hoping I could come
across a something used. It also depends if I can make use of the
current subs or sell them.
Types of place we play were in the original post:
Usually wedding/reception type halls with around 200 people.
But we do ocassionally play outside. That's where we needed the help
because the kick drum doesn't thump as loud outside.
Jim B
I guess that is an option if I want to get 2 per side for a total of
4.
Or - It was suggested to put a single pair in the center.
Is there a better solution with speakers that that do not have to be
paired?
Right now I'm not sure which route to take.
I do realize that I can't have my cake and cake and eat it too (size,
price, sound quality).
Tom Hole
Kindof a deadpan response on the Yorkie LS800P's. I thought for sure 3,000
watts of direct radiators for under $1,800 shipped new would stir some
interest. They would probably play nicely with your Carvins, too.
I know a pair of LS1208's would thump at an outdoor gig the size you are
talkin' because I've used them several times that way. Put a 2450 on each
one, give 'em a little room to breath and you'll throw back some hair. They
are only slightly larger than the LA400's, but $300 cheaper, each. I work
them hard and they keep thumpin'.
Tom
Jim B
How is the resale value?
Shaun
Even with just one per side, they carry more poop than a pair of 2x18's
pushed with 4000w per channel. Start with one per side; add two more when
you can afford it. If you're able to lay them both on the floor in the
center of the stage and run in mono, great. If not, oh well... they'll
still rock. An LA400 cab needs between 1600w and 2000w/8 ohms (ea). I ran
them with one Crest 8002 bridged 4000w @ 4 ohms per pair, and a BSS FDS-366.
Tom Hole
> How is the construction of Yorkville's equipment?
> How is the resale value?
>
Construction of both my LS1208's and my EF500P's is first rate. Although I
hate the rat fur and would definitely have purchased the non-rat fur
version. We have beat the crap out of these speakers for over 2 years now
with the only issue being a small tear in the rat fur carpet covering one of
the 1208's. The 1208's are rated by Yorkville at 1200 watts each program,
but I drive them flat out with 1500 watts each from the 2450's. I had the
2450's go into protect one night when we were opening for a band called
Midevil that had dual 28" kicks and I got a little frisky with the aux fed
subs. The 1208's were fine.
I was going through the exact same decision tree you are right now. I had a
line on a pair of used LA400's for the same price I could get the 1208's. I
went with the 1208's because they were much cheaper than the LA400's 2 years
ago. I got the first pair of 1208's that Audio East sold. I did a quick
search and it looks like LA400's are going for $1070 plus shipping. Audio
East has the 1208's for $790 including shipping. If that were the case
today, I might have gone with the LA400's.
I was worried that my EF500P's wouldn't hold up with the active pieces parts
inside, but they have not given me any trouble.
Not sure about resale. The rental company guys might be able to help here.
I've have had no cause to sell mine nor do I want to. I'd like to get 4 of
the NX550P's to use as monitors. I really like the active route. Didn't
think I would for a heavy metal band, but I do. The processing inside the
500P's is good enough that I only need a 2x31on the mains to keep them
tweaked, so I sold my DRPA.
Tom
Jim B
Shaun wrote:An LA400 cab needs between 1600w and 2000w/8 ohms (ea). I ran
> them with one Crest 8002 bridged 4000w @ 4 ohms per pair, and a BSS FDS-366.
>
Thanks for the response. Now a dumb question -
The LA400 spec sheet says "Power Handling, AES Standard (watts) 500." and you
recommend a 1600 to 2000 watt amp (4ohm bridge mono capability) per 8 ohm load.
Would my pair of QSC 1500mx's be enough to power a pair of LA400's?
Shaun
>> An LA400 cab needs between 1600w and 2000w/8 ohms (ea). I ran
>> them with one Crest 8002 bridged 4000w @ 4 ohms per pair, and a
>> BSS FDS-366.
>
> Thanks for the response. Now a dumb question -
>
> The LA400 spec sheet says "Power Handling, AES Standard (watts) 500." and you
> recommend a 1600 to 2000 watt amp (4ohm bridge mono capability) per 8 ohm
> load.
500 watts is their AES rating, when not using a DSP to control them. The
driver can handle 800w-1000w RMS, when properly crossed & limited (by DSP).
I said that it's best to use an amp that delivers 1600 to 2000 watts (ie per
cab) into 8 ohms, which would 3200 to 4000w into 4 ohms (one pair of LA400).
> Would my pair of QSC 1500mx's be enough to power a pair of LA400's?
They produce 1000-1100w bridged mono into 8 ohms (ie you'd have to use one
1500mx amp per cab). That's "barely" enough if you want to push your
LA400's to the max. As long as you set your limiters properly, you should
be okay until you can upgrade to larger amps. You'd be surprised how much
output these horn-loaded subs will produce, with very little amp power...
they stomp all over just about all 2x18 front-loaded boxes, but you don't
have the bottom octave capability that a good dual-18 can deliver. When you
start pairing up LA400's side-by-side, they effectively increase the horn
mouth and act as one horn, which smoothes the overall response and lowers
their "f3" point. More cabs = better. My ideal "mini" system would be a
pair of EAW KF650z atop a pair of LA400, per stack. I'd power it with two
racks with one each Crest 5200/5200/7200/8200, for a total of 21,000 watts.
Blind Joni
>500 watts is their AES rating, when not using a DSP to control them. The
>driver can handle 800w-1000w RMS, when properly crossed & limited (by DSP).
>
>I said that it's best to use an amp that delivers 1600 to 2000 watts (ie per
>cab) into 8 ohms, which would 3200 to 4000w into 4 ohms (one pair of LA400).
>
>> Would my pair of QSC 1500mx's be enough to power a pair of LA400's?
>
This is what kills me....as compared to products from say SPL or Bassmaxx. You
need as much amp to drive a single 12 on a short horn as 2x12's or 18" on a
long horn. Which results in less bass for the same power...and the LA 400 is no
way a match for a Lab Sub..BDeap 32 or a Bassmaxx B2. So you need twice as many
LA 400's..and twice as much power..not a deal as I see it.
Ralph Staub
Shaun - too much is almost always better than not enough ;-)). If you
ever saw his racks... "What the F*#@??!!" Anyway, IMHO, MX1500's in
bridge mono will be fine for your application.
Ralph
Shaun
> Shaun is, to put it mildly, a power superfreak (No offense intended,
> Shaun - too much is almost always better than not enough ;-)). If you
> ever saw his racks... "What the F*#@??!!"
Yep. ;)
> Anyway, IMHO, MX1500's in bridge mono will be fine for your application.
Yep. Plus they won't need to work very hard, and should last a long time.
The 1w/1m efficiency of the LA400 does not lie. Do the math. They rock!
They are likely the best SPL/performance/price sub on the market. Sound
quality is surprisingly good; tight and clean. Not as good as a KF940 of
course, but pleasing. Even with a small amp, they will still cave in your
chest. As with any other driver or cab, if you clip your amp into it, she's
probably gonna fry. My typical recommendations are designed to squeeze the
absolute maximum level of performance out of components, safely pushing them
to the edge of their capabilities. I've NEVER blown a driver in my EAW
systems, and only roasted a couple PV 1801-4 in my first homebrew subs in
1989, by insanely clipping (my first "real" amp) a Carver PM-900. Lesson
learned; it never happened again! Top-quality high-powered amps can be
heavy and expensive, but it's wise to choose/use them, as it protects your
investment, and they generally have much better sound quality and
performance spec's. Plus you don't have to run-em-to-the-red very often.
liquidator
"Blind Joni" <blin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040528171632...@mb-m25.aol.com...
. So you need twice as many
> LA 400's..and twice as much power..not a deal as I see it.
I tahe it you have never used the LA400?
liquidator
"Shaun" <see.sign...@email.address> wrote in message
news:BCDCF617.254D7%see.sign...@email.address...
> On 5/28/04 8:21 AM, Jim B wrote:
>
> >> An LA400 cab needs between 1600w and 2000w/8 ohms (ea). I ran
> >> them with one Crest 8002 bridged 4000w @ 4 ohms per pair, and a
> >> BSS FDS-366.
> >
> > Thanks for the response. Now a dumb question -
> >
> > The LA400 spec sheet says "Power Handling, AES Standard (watts) 500."
and you
> > recommend a 1600 to 2000 watt amp (4ohm bridge mono capability) per 8
ohm
> > load.
>
> 500 watts is their AES rating, when not using a DSP to control them. The
> driver can handle 800w-1000w RMS, when properly crossed & limited (by
DSP).
We regularly ran 4 LA 400 per side with 2.5 KW into each box. Yes they were
properly EQ'ed and limited.
A slight twitch of the sub level would produce raised eyebrows and "Holy
Shit" from even the most jaded of visiting engineers.
Blind Joni
>I tahe it you have never used the LA400?
>
Yes I have..and I thought they were good but didn't have the low end extension
of the others I mentioned...plus the power considerations I mentioned..I take
it you haven't tried the SPL or Bassmaxx products?
liquidator
> >
> >I tahe it you have never used the LA400?
> >
>
> Yes I have..and I thought they were good but didn't have the low end
extension
> of the others I mentioned...plus the power considerations I mentioned..I
take
> it you haven't tried the SPL or Bassmaxx products?
>
Actually I have. I will grant that without DSP that what you say is true.
But I am not sure that there is that much difference with DSP.
I am not knocking SPL stuff. it's pretty damn good. Just disagreeing the EAW
stuff is inferior.
Blind Joni
>
>I am not knocking SPL stuff. it's pretty damn good. Just disagreeing the EAW
>stuff is inferior.
>But I am not sure that there is that much difference with DSP.
>
>I am not knocking SPL stuff. it's pretty damn good. Just disagreeing the EAW
>stuff is inferior.
Whoa!!..I didn't say the EAW product was inferior. I was commenting on the
power/#of cabinets for a certain frequency range and output. I have tested the
SPL products and there is much real world results available. I have not seen
the coinciding results from real world testing of the EAW boxes. I may try to
set somehting up later this year. My point was..an LA 400..with a single 12" on
a shorter horn..with 2000 watts driving it..is not going to equal a Lab Sub
with the same 2000 watts. The original poster was trying to save space and
money I assumed. I have a friend locally who has 8 LA 400's..trouble is
getting him to actually hook them up and power them.
George
blin...@aol.com (Blind Joni) wrote:
I am sure all it takes is the payment to make it worthwhile
George
Blind Joni
>George
>
Not with this guy..I have to admit that he is my God!! <g>
Shaun
>> All other speakers should be
>>> delayed by 5-6msec. to account for the length of the horn.
> I don't think a Driverack PA has enough delay..the 260 does.
dbx PA literature states that it has 10 ms per channel. 6 < 10, therefore
YES it probably does have PLENTY of delay to allow stereo 2-way cabs atop
LA400's, assuming the top cabs need less than 4 ms themselves (< 2 ms
typical), unless you need your subs sitting 5+ feet BEHIND the top cabs...