Speaker choice and placement for a bar
Béru
I need some advice in choosing and placing speakers in our bar. The
room is about 55'x16' (18m x 5m). Walls are concrete blocks and there
is a suspended ceiling. We will just be playing CDs, no live bands
yet.
Thanks !
Beru
GregS
Need to know the requirments. Do you just want something playing in the background,
or do you want people to be there and say, this sounds good.
Levels, population. type of music, stc. Stereo/mono?
greg
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Béru" <bens...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183943367.3...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I would use lots of smallish speakers, broken up into "zones for individual
control of volume
many smaller speakers will give more even coverage and add a couple of sub
woffers and the sound can be quite impressive
check the EAW line up
George
>
GregS
They have one of the only multidirectional speakers out there. I heard one at
a ball game. I was impressed with the sound. This was a fill in speaker. Model UM42.
They certainly make a good selection of speakers if one can afford them.
Many places don't want to spend a lot of money. The budget was also
not mentioned.
greg
Mike Dobony
"GregS" <szek...@pitt.edu> wrote in message
news:f6ti4g$qnp$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu...
Greg, remember you are talking to King George who demands that you sacrifice
everything important to buy the best equipment. It doesn't matter if you
don't have the funds available and go bankrupt to get the best. To him,
sound reinforcement is a god to sacrifice to. Sound reinforcement is a
master to be served instead of a tool to serve. Sound reinforcement is God
and he is the high priest.
His idea about small speakers spread around the bar is a good idea given the
concrete block walls. Given that this is probably a startup business (the
impression I get) and money has to be spent in many areas, EAW is probably
an extravagant choice. Behringer is probably a better choice to get started
or shop around the pawn shops for some better brands at low prices.
Mike D.
Béru
> >I need some advice in choosing and placing speakers in our bar. The
> >room is about 55'x16' (18m x 5m). Walls are concrete blocks and there
> >is a suspended ceiling. We will just be playing CDs, no live bands
> >yet.
>
> Need to know the requirments. Do you just want something playing in the background,
> or do you want people to be there and say, this sounds good.
> Levels, population. type of music, stc. Stereo/mono?
No dancing, but good sounding background music. We expect people will
come here to speak to each other, laugh... we hope it'll be party-like
on week-ends, and maybe more quiet on week days.
Music will be eclectic... no classical but world, rock, electronic,
pop etc... The music selection is going to be a distinctive feature of
our place so people need to be able to hear it clearly, but also to be
able to talk to each other, so it will never be very very loud.
And lastly, we have a small budget, 1000 to 1500$ max.
thanks !
Beru
Béru
> His idea about small speakers spread around the bar is a good idea given the
> concrete block walls. Given that this is probably a startup business (the
> impression I get) and money has to be spent in many areas, EAW is probably
> an extravagant choice. Behringer is probably a better choice to get started
> or shop around the pawn shops for some better brands at low prices.
I have been thinking about small speakers, but what kind exactly ?
I have looked at Behringer CE1000 or S1020, Yorkville Coliseum, at
Mackies also but the srm450 are too expensive.... Would 4 of such
speakers be enough or should I go for 6 or 8 smaller speakers ?
Thanks !
Beru
michael gaster
1ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=78&title=110TB&s=6
and 6ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=65&title=CMS401e&s=6
I can source these if you need
--
Michael Gaster
Gaster Engineering
Eeyore
Béru wrote:
Those are far too large for your needs. They'll have the ability to deafen your
customers.
What you need is more smaller speakers. JBL's Control One is entirely adequate to
the task of background music and is small and unobtrusive. You can pick them up
really cheap sometimes too.
http://www.richersounds.com/showproduct.php?cda=showproduct&pid=JBL-CONTROL1-SIL
Equivalent to $49.95 each.
Graham
Eeyore
michael gaster wrote:
> "Béru" <bens...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > I need some advice in choosing and placing speakers in our bar. The
> > room is about 55'x16' (18m x 5m). Walls are concrete blocks and there
> > is a suspended ceiling. We will just be playing CDs, no live bands
> > yet.
>
>
> 1ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=78&title=110TB&s=6
> and 6ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=65&title=CMS401e&s=6
> I can source these if you need
Ceiling speakers ?
Graham
GregS
I didn't really get the location.
The Tannoy suggestion looks good. If
it were me, I would whip up my own speakers. The Behringer suggestion
may be a good one. I also look for bargains from MCM company. Stay
away from piezo units. I would want something like 5 small pairs for the place,
in stereo. Usable speakers are scarce below $100 ea. Position the units toward
the floor if mounted high near a ceiling. MCM also has subwoofer kits, and parts.
One 12 inch sub should provide moderate levela of bass. With the MCM kits,
you can do it for $500. Its not common to get or hear stereo. You need speakers within 10 to 15 feet
from the peoples ears to perceive stereo, but I like it. Thats what I would do.
Mono might be better for very high SPL levels.
Wiring, amplifiers... part two.
greg
GregS
I totally agree. The speaker "in your face" type, is going to be hard to control
sound and get listening enjoyment.
greg
GregS
How about Behringer 1C.
greg
michael gaster
news:469283F4...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> michael gaster wrote:
>>
>> 1ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=78&title=110TB&s=6
>> and 6ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=65&title=CMS401e&s=6
>> I can source these if you need
>
> Ceiling speakers ?
>
> Graham
>
"Walls are concrete blocks and there is a suspended ceiling. We will just be
playing CDs, no live bands yet."
what are your suggestions?
GregS
Bare concrete blocks are good for sound. With thick coats of paint they become
just smooth hard walls. Muraled sound absorbors can be placed in problem
areas. If you paint bare concrete block, spray it, don't roller it.
Bands?? That will be another system.
greg
Eeyore
GregS wrote:
> >I totally agree. The speaker "in your face" type, is going to be hard to
> > control sound and get listening enjoyment.
>
> How about Behringer 1C.
That would be fine too. JBL's got more street cred though.
Graham
Eeyore
michael gaster wrote:
> "Eeyore" wrote
> > michael gaster wrote:
> >>
> >> 1ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=78&title=110TB&s=6
> >> and 6ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=65&title=CMS401e&s=6
> >> I can source these if you need
> >
> > Ceiling speakers ?
>
>
> "Walls are concrete blocks and there is a suspended ceiling. We will just be
> playing CDs, no live bands yet."
>
> what are your suggestions?
Wall mounted speakers. Readily tiltable and they point in the right direction so
you can hear the treble.
Graham
Béru
wrote:
> > I have looked at Behringer CE1000 or S1020, Yorkville Coliseum, at
> > Mackies also but the srm450 are too expensive.... Would 4 of such
> > speakers be enough or should I go for 6 or 8 smaller speakers ?
>
> Those are far too large for your needs. They'll have the ability to deafen your
> customers.
>
> What you need is more smaller speakers. JBL's Control One is entirely adequate to
> the task of background music and is small and unobtrusive. You can pick them up
Thanks, but aren't those going to lack bass with such small woofers ?
would I need a sub, then ?
> Equivalent to $49.95 each.
At that price I could buy 8 I guess.
Can you recommend amplifiers that would go well with those ?
Thanks Greg & Graham... very helpful comments !
Beru
TimPerry
play the radio instead <g> here's why:
http://www.ascap.com/licensing/generalfaq.html
An amendment to the Copyright Act, designed to clarify and expand the scope
of the exemption for certain performances of music in food service, drinking
and retail establishments by means of radio and television transmissions,
became effective on January 26, 1999. (Public Law No. 105-298, which amended
17 U.S.C. 110(5).)
The amendment law applies only to performances by means of
radio-over-speakers or televisions, only if no direct charge is made to see
or hear the performances, only if the performances are not further
transmitted beyond the establishment where they are received, and only if
the original transmission is licensed by the copyright owners -- that is,
the radio or television station, cable system or satellite carrier is
licensed by the copyright owners or their performing rights organizations.
The scope of the exemption in the old law had been unclear, and led to much
litigation. The new law contains objective standards which will enable both
music users and copyright owners to determine whether particular
radio-over-speaker and television performances are exempt from copyright
liability. Two types of music users are exempt, under different standards: a
food service or drinking establishment(defined as "a restaurant, inn, bar,
tavern, or any other similar place of business in which the public or
patrons assemble for the primary purpose of being served food or drink, in
which the majority of the gross square feet of space that is nonresidential
is used for that purpose, and in which nondramatic musical works are
performed publicly") and an other establishment (defined as "a store, shop,
or any similar place of business open to the general public for the primary
purpose of selling goods or services in which the majority of the gross
square feet of space that is nonresidential is used for that purpose, and in
which nondramatic musical works are performed publicly").
A food service or drinking establishment is eligible for the exemption if it
(1) has less than 3750 gross square feet of space (in measuring the space,
the amount of space used for customer parking only is always excludable); or
(2) has 3750 gross square feet of space or more and (a) uses no more than 6
loudspeakers of which not more than 4 loudspeakers are located in any 1 room
or adjoining outdoor space; and (b) if television sets are used, there are
no more than 4 televisions, of which not more than 1 is located in any 1
room and none has a diagonal screen size greater than 55 inches.
An other establishment is eligible for the exemption if it (1) has less than
2000 gross square feet of space; or (2) has 2000 or more gross square feet
of space and satisfies the same loudspeaker and television set requirements
as for food service or drinking establishments.
michael gaster
Whack!!!! (imagine a school house nun with a ruler applying it your your
hands)
you weren't paying attention (again) were you???
go back, look, read, and report your findings here...
I will even make it a little easier for you:
http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/products/65/CMS401e-data-file.pdf
Béru
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:46929D27...@hotmail.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > michael gaster wrote:
>
> >> "Eeyore" wrote
> >> > michael gaster wrote:
>
> >> >> and 6ea
> >> >>http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=65&title=CMS401e&s=6
> >> >> I can source these if you need
>
> >> > Ceiling speakers ?
>
> >> "Walls are concrete blocks and there is a suspended ceiling. We will just
> >> be
> >> playing CDs, no live bands yet."
>
> >> what are your suggestions?
>
> > Wall mounted speakers. Readily tiltable and they point in the right
> > direction so
> > you can hear the treble.
>
> > Graham
>
> Whack!!!! (imagine a school house nun with a ruler applying it your your
> hands)
>
> you weren't paying attention (again) were you???
>
> go back, look, read, and report your findings here...
>
> I will even make it a little easier for you:
>
> http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/products/65/CMS401e-data-file.pdf
Interesting suggestion, but all the Tannoys I've looked at are too
expensive for us.
What about Electro Voice EVID ?
Thanks,
Beru
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Mike Dobony" <sw...@notasarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:FQski.4174$bz7....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
and so you are my minon seving me
the God of all things audio
how does your false god feel about that?
your such a tiny man bony
grow the fuck up
George
>
>
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
I would get something more resilient than the behringers
the behringers are good as small speakers for small speaker jobs
like monitoring in a recording or background music
if you opening a club the behringers/yorkvilles/yamaha's/jbl/peaveys will be
on the curb within a month
cry 4 times or cry once
its your choice
Eeyore
Béru wrote:
> Eeyore wrote
>
> > > I have looked at Behringer CE1000 or S1020, Yorkville Coliseum, at
> > > Mackies also but the srm450 are too expensive.... Would 4 of such
> > > speakers be enough or should I go for 6 or 8 smaller speakers ?
> >
> > Those are far too large for your needs. They'll have the ability to deafen your
> > customers.
> >
> > What you need is more smaller speakers. JBL's Control One is entirely adequate to
> > the task of background music and is small and unobtrusive. You can pick them up
> > really cheap sometimes too.http://www.richersounds.com/showproduct.php?cda=showproduct&pid=JBL-C...
>
> Thanks, but aren't those going to lack bass with such small woofers ?
> would I need a sub, then ?
No.
Low bass will simply annoy your patrons. It will interfere with their conversation. They're there
primarily to socialise, not to listen to music I assume.
> > Equivalent to $49.95 each.
>
> At that price I could buy 8 I guess.
>
> Can you recommend amplifiers that would go well with those ?
Don't use lots of watts, again you'll just annoy the customers. You probably only need a couple of watts
per speaker for a comfortable level. I *hate* having to shout above the background music. It's a
conversation killer and will cause ppl to leave.
If you're using the standard 8 ohm speakers, you'll want the lowest power amp you can find most likely
that'll drive 2 ohms ( 4 speakers per channel) .
Whilst it has *far* more power than you need, the QSC RMX850 will do the job and is cheap. $320 here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-QSC-RMX-850-amp-amplifier-RMX850-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQitemZ330142716141QQihZ014QQcategoryZ23787QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
That'll be around $750 for your speakers and an amp which should fit your budget nicely.
Graham
Eeyore
michael gaster wrote:
> "Eeyore" wrote
> > michael gaster wrote:
> >> "Eeyore" wrote
> >> > michael gaster wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1ea http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=78&title=110TB&s=6
> >> >> and 6ea
> >> >> http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?product=65&title=CMS401e&s=6
> >> >> I can source these if you need
> >> >
> >> > Ceiling speakers ?
> >>
> >>
> >> "Walls are concrete blocks and there is a suspended ceiling. We will just
> >> be playing CDs, no live bands yet."
> >>
> >> what are your suggestions?
> >
> > Wall mounted speakers. Readily tiltable and they point in the right
> > direction so you can hear the treble.
>
>
> Whack!!!! (imagine a school house nun with a ruler applying it your your
> hands)
>
> you weren't paying attention (again) were you???
>
> go back, look, read, and report your findings here...
>
> I will even make it a little easier for you:
>
> http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/products/65/CMS401e-data-file.pdf
The range of tilt still ends up with the treble mainly on the floor.
Graham
Ian
Hi Beru,
As you said in one of your posts that music quality is important for
your venture you'll find that 1000-1500 USD for a whole system is
going to be really cutting it fine. Ideally you'd need a couple of
times that budget to bring in really high quality sound. However, one
has to deal with the budget one's got. You can always extend or
upgrade the system later when funds permit.
Do your dimensions for the bar you gave include the bar service area
or is it just the patron area? How heigh are the ceilings?
First things first, Check to see what if any noise restrictions are
placed on the proposed bar, your local council (municiple authority)
should know.
Secondly, as Tim Perry pointed out in his post, you'll be limted to 4
speakers if you don't want to run the chance of having to face the
RIAA in court and cough up copyright royaltes. Given the mood of the
RIAA of late and their litigation happy band of laywers I'd really
recommend keeping it down to 4 speaker cabs in total.
How much volume level do you really need? Food for thought time! A
quiet restaraunt is around 50 dB SPL and a noisy factory is around 90
dB SPL which happens to a noise limit imposed in a lot of Australian
bars and clubs for live music these days. 110-120 dB SPL is the range
for most rock concerts. So In reality you'll probably find you won't
need to push it much over 100 dB SPL in your bar at any time. If you
do then it's nice to have some headroom in your speaker system.
In real terms you'll probably seldom need to go over 90-95 dB SPL on
reasonably busy nights, that is assuming around 100 patrons at a time.
Unlike the others I'm not going to give you a list of specific speaker
models to go look at, as it's impossible to recommend speakers for a
room without hearing the room accoustics etc. However there are a few
general concepts that will help you in finding a suitable set at the
right price.
I'd suggest looking at something with a 8-12" driver and horn. I'd
suggest they be wired as 2 stereo pairs. Since each speaker will be
covering an area of around 4.5 x 5m (14.7 feet by 16.5 feet) you won't
need very high powered cabinets, something in the range of 100-150
Wrms should do the trick nicely depending on the effeceincy of the
speaker cabinet.
I'd really suggest talking with your local audio suppliers and see if
you can borrow a couple of speaker cabs to try out in the bar to see
how they sound in situ.
In a pinch you can use foldback wedges for this type of application,
though it's not a preferred method it does work and with careful
placement it can work quite well.
For a CD player, you'd probably be best off with a 5 platter type CD
player or a CD player jukebox such as a Pioneer.
Use a cheapo Behringer UB series mixer as a preamp (A UB802 would be
ideal with a single CD jukebox type player) as this will give you
basic tone shaping and the necessary signal gain to drive a power
amplier.
Power amp wise, I'd be checking the local pawn brokers, band rehearsal
rooms etc for a used Behringer, Biema or QSC amplifier. Something
around 250-300 Wrms per channel should be fine.
One last area that needs to be addressed is speaker mounting brackets.
You'll need heavy duty brackets, don't skimp here as all you need is a
drunk patron to play at being Tarzan or a bracket to fail with the
result being an injured patron to discover the joys (read pain) of
lawsuits.
Cheers,
Ian
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> In reality you'll probably find you won't need to push it much over 100 dB
> SPL in your bar at any time.
That would make ordinary conversation quite impossible.
I'm perplexed by the number of ppl who apparently want to deafen the customers.
Graham
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> I'd suggest looking at something with a 8-12" driver and horn. I'd
> suggest they be wired as 2 stereo pairs. Since each speaker will be
> covering an area of around 4.5 x 5m (14.7 feet by 16.5 feet) you won't
> need very high powered cabinets, something in the range of 100-150
> Wrms should do the trick nicely depending on the effeceincy of the
> speaker cabinet.
You're out of your fucking brain.
Graham
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
>
> Use a cheapo Behringer UB series mixer as a preamp (A UB802 would be
> ideal with a single CD jukebox type player) as this will give you
> basic tone shaping and the necessary signal gain to drive a power
> amplier.
A CD player doesn't need a pre-amp you utter moron !
Just how fucking IGNORANT are you ?
Graham
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> One last area that needs to be addressed is speaker mounting brackets.
> You'll need heavy duty brackets, don't skimp here as all you need is a
> drunk patron to play at being Tarzan or a bracket to fail with the
> result being an injured patron to discover the joys (read pain) of
> lawsuits.
How about the lawsuits for loss of hearing ?
Graham
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> 110-120 dB SPL is the range for most rock concerts.
Where the fuck are you measuring 120dB in a venue ?
You haven't the tiniest idea what you're talking about.
Graham
Ian
It's a common level used in bars for 'party atmosphere' as per the
OP's comment in one of his posts. Note my comment was won't need to
push it over ...
Ian
Ian
On the contrary .. available power doesn't mean you have to use it.
Ian
Ian
Swearing now, oh my. A few facts time. Cd players (domestic) put out
anywhere from 400mV to 1V rms at the output (I've measured a few
dozen) while professional grade units are invariable 1V rms output
mostly. Professional amplifiers require up to 2.75V rms to drive.
Secondly a pre-amp doesn't have to provide gain though I'd rather have
3-6dbV gain for a CD player. The main reason however is for the basic
3 way tone control the UB802 has, otherwise you are entirely stuck
wthout anyway of frequency response adjustment using a direct CD to
power-amp and considerably reduced finesse in volume level adjustment.
Ian
Ian
Never heard of one!
Ian
You're the one who's clueless. Having done a few thousand shows and
measured the SPL at the FOH everytime I stand by those figures.
I guess you've only ever done Jazz or low volume chruch type sound
reinforcment work, if any.
Ian
Ron(UK)
120db? In a bar?
Ron(UK)
Béru
wrote:
> Do your dimensions for the bar you gave include the bar service area
> or is it just the patron area? How heigh are the ceilings?
It's the total area of the main room. The suspended ceilings are 10'
high.
> First things first, Check to see what if any noise restrictions are
> placed on the proposed bar, your local council (municiple authority)
> should know.
No problem, the guys who rented the place had a live band permit and
never had a problem. We'll stay far from such levels.
> Secondly, as Tim Perry pointed out in his post, you'll be limted to 4
> speakers if you don't want to run the chance of having to face the
> RIAA in court and cough up copyright royaltes. Given the mood of the
> RIAA of late and their litigation happy band of laywers I'd really
> recommend keeping it down to 4 speaker cabs in total.
I live in Canada !
Thanks
Beru
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> >Ian wrote:
> >
> >> In reality you'll probably find you won't need to push it much over 100 dB
> >> SPL in your bar at any time.
> >
> >That would make ordinary conversation quite impossible.
> >
> >I'm perplexed by the number of ppl who apparently want to deafen the customers.
>
> It's a common level used in bars for 'party atmosphere' as per the
> OP's comment in one of his posts. Note my comment was won't need to
> push it over ...
Who says it's a common level ?
It it was actually that loud in a bar, employers would have to provide ear
protection for the staff.
Graham
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> >Ian wrote:
> >
> >> 110-120 dB SPL is the range for most rock concerts.
> >
> >Where the fuck are you measuring 120dB in a venue ?
> >
> >You haven't the tiniest idea what you're talking about.
>
>
> You're the one who's clueless. Having done a few thousand shows and
> measured the SPL at the FOH everytime I stand by those figures.
Where exactly have you measured *120dB SPL* ? How long for, measurement method
(weighting response etc) ?
> I guess you've only ever done Jazz or low volume chruch type sound
> reinforcment work, if any.
Er No. Plenty of 'rock and roll' but I don't like to destroy the hearing of the
customers.
Graham
Ian
<r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:
>Ian wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:30:00 +0100, Eeyore
>> <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ian wrote:
>>>
>>>> 110-120 dB SPL is the range for most rock concerts.
>>> Where the fuck are you measuring 120dB in a venue ?
>> I guess you've only ever done Jazz or low volume chruch type sound
>> reinforcment work, if any.
>>
>> Ian
>
>120db? In a bar?
I never said it was in a bar ... kindly don't misquote.
>Ron(UK)
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:16:05 +0100, Eeyore
> <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Ian wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Use a cheapo Behringer UB series mixer as a preamp (A UB802 would be
> >> ideal with a single CD jukebox type player) as this will give you
> >> basic tone shaping and the necessary signal gain to drive a power
> >> amplier.
> >
> >A CD player doesn't need a pre-amp you utter moron !
> >
> >Just how fucking IGNORANT are you ?
>
>
> Swearing now, oh my. A few facts time. Cd players (domestic) put out
> anywhere from 400mV to 1V rms at the output (I've measured a few
> dozen) while professional grade units are invariable 1V rms output
> mostly.
Utter and complete drivel.
All mains powered CD players have near identical output levels (or should do -
it's meant to be standardised ) which correspond to 2V @ 0dBFS.
> Professional amplifiers require up to 2.75V rms to drive.
Very few do. How about you name a few ? Most are happilly driven to full power
with +4dBu or therabouts.
In any case you *don't want* to drive the amplifier to maximum.
Graham
Ian
>> Secondly, as Tim Perry pointed out in his post, you'll be limted to 4
>> speakers if you don't want to run the chance of having to face the
>> RIAA in court and cough up copyright royaltes. Given the mood of the
>> RIAA of late and their litigation happy band of laywers I'd really
>> recommend keeping it down to 4 speaker cabs in total.
>
>I live in Canada !
Canada is a signatory to the Berne Convention on Copyright 1971 (and
amendments) which means that sooner or later it can and will be
applied if the local version of the RIAA nazi's decide to go after a
cheap source of revinue. Which given the dramatic decrease globally
in turnover for the record companies won't take long.
Ian
Ron(UK)
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:27:58 +0100, "Ron(UK)"
> <r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:
>
>> Ian wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:30:00 +0100, Eeyore
>>> <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ian wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 110-120 dB SPL is the range for most rock concerts.
>>>> Where the fuck are you measuring 120dB in a venue ?
>
>>> I guess you've only ever done Jazz or low volume chruch type sound
>>> reinforcment work, if any.
>>>
>>> Ian
>> 120db? In a bar?
>
> I never said it was in a bar ... kindly don't misquote.
>
>> Ron(UK)
But we are discussing music in a bar. 100db would be too much, 120db
would be damaging to the patrons. It would probably result in a law suit.
Ron(UK)
Eeyore
"Ron(UK)" wrote:
> Ian wrote:
> > "Ron(UK)"
> > <r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:
> >> Ian wrote:
> >>> Eeyore wrote:
> >>>> Ian wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> 110-120 dB SPL is the range for most rock concerts.
> >>>> Where the fuck are you measuring 120dB in a venue ?
> >
> >>> I guess you've only ever done Jazz or low volume chruch type sound
> >>> reinforcment work, if any.
> >>>
> >>> Ian
> >> 120db? In a bar?
> >
> > I never said it was in a bar ... kindly don't misquote.
>
>
> But we are discussing music in a bar. 100db would be too much, 120db
> would be damaging to the patrons. It would probably result in a law suit.
An average level of 120dB would leave your ears ringing and hearing sensitivity
seriously depressed (temporary threshold shift) after only a couple of minutes.
An 'average' 120dB (as measured by most SPL meters) would imply peaks in the
130dB region.
Graham
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Ron(UK)" <r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:n9WdnSwzOZS...@bt.com...
most the bands with thier own engineers end up around 116 in my town
but I had one act that soundchecked at 128!!!
iot was painful outside the venue
of course the engineer at the controls /and the venue is liable for the
abuse and damage done to the audience
I try to keep 105 as my max
george
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
i see 116 avaerge in(small) bars(100 or so punters) constantly
ear protection'
never leave home without it
Ron(UK)
> most the bands with thier own engineers end up around 116 in my town
> but I had one act that soundchecked at 128!!!
> iot was painful outside the venue
> of course the engineer at the controls /and the venue is liable for the
> abuse and damage done to the audience
> I try to keep 105 as my max
I did a briefcase gig last week in a small club where the limit was 108
at the desk. 108db seemed less than loud at the mix position, but up
front by the stacks it was shatteringly loud to me, those 'ugly bags of
water' sure do soak it up.
Ron(UK)
GregS
>
>"Béru" <bens...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183999266.8...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 9, 11:52 am, "Mike Dobony" <s...@notasarian-host.net> wrote:
>>> His idea about small speakers spread around the bar is a good idea given
>>> the
>>> concrete block walls. Given that this is probably a startup business
>>> (the
>>> impression I get) and money has to be spent in many areas, EAW is
>>> probably
>>> an extravagant choice. Behringer is probably a better choice to get
>>> started
>>> or shop around the pawn shops for some better brands at low prices.
>>
>> I have been thinking about small speakers, but what kind exactly ?
>>
>> I have looked at Behringer CE1000 or S1020, Yorkville Coliseum, at
>> Mackies also but the srm450 are too expensive.... Would 4 of such
>> speakers be enough or should I go for 6 or 8 smaller speakers ?
>>
>> Beru
>>
>unless this is a very low level "background" music application
>I would get something more resilient than the behringers
>the behringers are good as small speakers for small speaker jobs
>like monitoring in a recording or background music
>if you opening a club the behringers/yorkvilles/yamaha's/jbl/peaveys will be
>on the curb within a month
>cry 4 times or cry once
>its your choice
It totally depends if you want ear splitting music. We have a large pool hall restuarant
in town that uses mini speakers, and has plenty of volume for that required. The speakers
have been up for many years. I know another place well out of town. They have simple small
Bose speakers and a subwoofer. One subwoofer for a place close to 10000 sq. ft. The
The 4 inch Bose speaker actually sounds better than the larger Bose speaker.
I would add the subwoofer myself, but the system can be first tried without
one. Again, I like stereo for a less boring sound.
greg
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"GregS" <szek...@pitt.edu> wrote in message
news:f70241$ee2$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu...
if its simply a cd feed, not being "mixed by a dj" a less durable speaker
may work out
if they are going to have a dj them you need(NEED) some really well built
durable speakers
but what I am reading this sounds more like a lounge than a club
so pretty much any small speaker and sub will give them basic sound
george
Bob Urz
In the US, you better have ASCAP, and rights organizations Sticker and
permit unless you have a jukebox type permit. It does not matter how
many speakers you have. Otherwise , you open yourself up for being sued.
And you better be careful of what your putting in the ceiling.
Distributed is fine. But if your in a plenum ceiling with a non rated
wooden box and are stupid and have a fire or such, you may be in
for a lot more than you expected.
Bob
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Eeyore
"Ron(UK)" wrote:
How is the 108dB measured ?
Graham
Bob Urz
tbmo...@peoplepc.com wrote:
Sound like a great new cottage industry for music bars. A rubber and a
set of earplugs to go.....
Safety first! ;)
TimPerry
> On Jul 9, 8:31 am, szeke...@pitt.edu (GregS) wrote:
> > >I need some advice in choosing and placing speakers in our bar. The
> > >room is about 55'x16' (18m x 5m). Walls are concrete blocks and there
> > >is a suspended ceiling. We will just be playing CDs, no live bands
> > >yet.
> >
> > Need to know the requirments. Do you just want something playing in the
background,
> > or do you want people to be there and say, this sounds good.
> > Levels, population. type of music, stc. Stereo/mono?
>
> No dancing, but good sounding background music. We expect people will
> come here to speak to each other, laugh... we hope it'll be party-like
> on week-ends, and maybe more quiet on week days.
>
> Music will be eclectic... no classical but world, rock, electronic,
> pop etc... The music selection is going to be a distinctive feature of
> our place so people need to be able to hear it clearly, but also to be
> able to talk to each other, so it will never be very very loud.
>
> And lastly, we have a small budget, 1000 to 1500$ max.
>
> thanks !
> Beru
>
I would suggest MG speakers http://www.mgelectronics.com/ as a good
compromise on price/performance.
Here's some freeware to use if you decide on ceiling speakers
http://www.toaelectronics.com/speaker_software.asp
Eeyore
TimPerry wrote:
> I would suggest MG speakers http://www.mgelectronics.com/ as a good
> compromise on price/performance.
That's not a very good joke really.
Graham
GregS
I have used some MG stuff. Definately price/peformance winner.
They even have some indoor/outdoor speakers with built in transformers
with volume selector!!!!!!!
greg
GregS
I get the feeling its MONO-BORING, but looks interesting.
greg
TimPerry
You are going to get a stereo effect for background music in a 55X16 ft
room?
If even coverage is desired a distributed speaker system is indicated.
GregS
>
>> >> > >I need some advice in choosing and placing speakers in our bar. The
>> >> > >room is about 55'x16' (18m x 5m). Walls are concrete blocks and
>there
>> >> > >is a suspended ceiling. We will just be playing CDs, no live bands
>> >> > >yet.
>> >> >
>>
>>
>>
>> greg
>
>You are going to get a stereo effect for background music in a 55X16 ft
>room?
>
>If even coverage is desired a distributed speaker system is indicated.
Thats another question. We don't know the coverage, or I missed it.
I see no problem with stereo in those dimensions, or or I better say
spacial information or 3D vs one demension. In a large 100 by 100 ft.
room, crisscrossing ceiling speakers can be done. it may not
be true stereo, but it sounds much different than mono. I never find stereo
installations. Its much easier to install mono, and cheaper, perhaps
the prime reason why I can't hear stereo.
greg
Ian
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Ian wrote:
>
>> Eeyore wrote:
>> >Ian wrote:
>> >
>> >> 110-120 dB SPL is the range for most rock concerts.
>> >
>> >Where the fuck are you measuring 120dB in a venue ?
>> >
>> >You haven't the tiniest idea what you're talking about.
>>
>>
>> You're the one who's clueless. Having done a few thousand shows and
>> measured the SPL at the FOH everytime I stand by those figures.
>
>Where exactly have you measured *120dB SPL* ? How long for, measurement method
>(weighting response etc) ?
FOH Mix position, which varies anywhere from 10-50m from the front of
stage depending on venue.
Metering using a Bruel and Kajer 2239A a class 1 meter.
My standard volume measuring methodology is as follows:
Meter held at arms length with the measuring position being approx 1
meter off to the side of the front of the FOH console. This eliminates
reflection from the console.
Metering scale: Primary: A weighted with slow response.
and supplimentary C weighted slow measurement.
Duration of measurement. 30-40 seconds typical.
>> I guess you've only ever done Jazz or low volume chruch type sound
>> reinforcment work, if any.
>
>Er No. Plenty of 'rock and roll' but I don't like to destroy the hearing of the
>customers.
Nor do I like to destroy the punters hearing, gone are the good old or
bad days (depends on one's view) of the early to mid 80s when we'd
pile in obscene quantaties of large horn loaded cabs in to toilet
sized venues.
Ian
Ian
>most the bands with thier own engineers end up around 116 in my town
>but I had one act that soundchecked at 128!!!
>iot was painful outside the venue
>of course the engineer at the controls /and the venue is liable for the
>abuse and damage done to the audience
>I try to keep 105 as my max
>george
>
Australia is wierd with it's venue licensing. Over in the Eastern
states a lot of the smaller suburban pub/club type venues have the
lights 'o death meters hooked in to the main power distro.
Many of the lights of death are set for 90 dB SPL (A weighted slow
response), which is fine for an accoustic act or duo but way too low
for rock, punk, metal etc.
For those that haven't encountered a meter 'o death it's an SPL meter
and cut out switch that has 3 lamps that give a visual indication of
how loud the gig is. If the top lamp (red) glows for more than about
a second the power is cut to the stage area and FOH power feeds. On
the third cut out it's usual practice to have a time lockout engaged
that precludes any more performance that night. Needless to say
bypassing the lights 'o death is an absolute no no as not only can the
venue loose its license but who ever is responsible for bypassing the
unit can be fined thousands of dollars under various state noise
abatement regulations.
Other venues are unrestricted, though it's sensible to keep it to
around 100-110 at the FOH position which is what I aim for at most
pub/club gigs with larger concerts creeping up to 115-120 dB.
Gone are the days of shovelling a triple or quad 4 or 5 way system in
to a dunny sized gig and then pushing it to the limits. I like to
have my hair au natural these days and not blowing in the wake of the
kick drum.
Ian
GregS
This one even has a 6.5 inch driver
SB800TB - 70 Volt/8 ohm indoor / outdoor corner compatible loudspeaker system (packed in pairs)
Seems substantial. MCM even sells these. Out of stock.
greg
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> Other venues are unrestricted, though it's sensible to keep it to
> around 100-110 at the FOH position which is what I aim for at most
> pub/club gigs with larger concerts creeping up to 115-120 dB.
Why exactly do you think it's normal for 'larger concerts' (do you mean venues)
to be 10dB louder ?
Graham
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:17:58 GMT, <tbmo...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> >most the bands with thier own engineers end up around 116 in my town
> >but I had one act that soundchecked at 128!!!
> >iot was painful outside the venue
> >of course the engineer at the controls /and the venue is liable for the
> >abuse and damage done to the audience
> >I try to keep 105 as my max
> >george
> >
>
> Australia is wierd with it's venue licensing. Over in the Eastern
> states a lot of the smaller suburban pub/club type venues have the
> lights 'o death meters hooked in to the main power distro.
>
> Many of the lights of death are set for 90 dB SPL (A weighted slow
> response), which is fine for an accoustic act or duo but way too low
> for rock, punk, metal etc.
Too low for many an acoustic instrument too.
Graham
Ron(UK)
Audiences make more noise than that!
Ron(UK)
Eeyore
"Ron(UK)" wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> > Ian wrote:
> >> <tbmo...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> most the bands with thier own engineers end up around 116 in my town
> >>> but I had one act that soundchecked at 128!!!
> >>> iot was painful outside the venue
> >>> of course the engineer at the controls /and the venue is liable for the
> >>> abuse and damage done to the audience
> >>> I try to keep 105 as my max
> >>> george
> >>>
> >> Australia is wierd with it's venue licensing. Over in the Eastern
> >> states a lot of the smaller suburban pub/club type venues have the
> >> lights 'o death meters hooked in to the main power distro.
> >>
> >> Many of the lights of death are set for 90 dB SPL (A weighted slow
> >> response), which is fine for an accoustic act or duo but way too low
> >> for rock, punk, metal etc.
> >
> > Too low for many an acoustic instrument too.
>
>
> Audiences make more noise than that!
It's not unknown for orchestra musicians to have damaged hearing too.
Graham
michael gaster
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46933BE1...@hotmail.com...
>>
>> Whack!!!! (imagine a school house nun with a ruler applying it your your
>> hands)
>>
>> you weren't paying attention (again) were you???
>>
>> go back, look, read, and report your findings here...
>>
>> I will even make it a little easier for you:
>>
>> http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/products/65/CMS401e-data-file.pdf
>
> The range of tilt still ends up with the treble mainly on the floor.
>
> Graham
>
as with anything audio... at what frequency?
--
Michael Gaster
Gaster Engineering
michael gaster
> Interesting suggestion, but all the Tannoys I've looked at are too
> expensive for us.
>
> What about Electro Voice EVID ?
>
> Thanks,
> Beru
Tannoy make products in your price range, you might not be able to get the
fisheye ones, but there are cost effective options... you have 1000~1500 to
spend on speakers correct?
Ian
<r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:
>Audiences make more noise than that!
>
>Ron(UK)
They sure do. Though I don't do much over East these days, when the
lights o' death were first being installed in the early 90s a lot of
the units were being forced on clubs/pubs as part of their "live
venue" license and a lot were going in to pubs/clubs next to domestic
dwellings whose inhabitants had long histories of bitching about the
noise levels. NSW was hit hardest (Sydney).
A fairly typical scenario (a bowling/recreation club on the central
coast of NSW, about 90 minutes drive north of Sydney) was that the
club would run bands on Friday and Saturday night and then after a
dozen years the complaints started up, so the club was ordered by the
local council to cut back to one night a week and install a meter 'o
death. Less than a year later the venue was no longer taking any live
acts. They installed a disco/karaloke setup. During the 1990s this
happened to literally hundreds of venues over in the Eastern States of
Australia and the live music scene at a local level was given a
massive blow from which it's never really recovered.
Naturally there's a lot of other reasons, including changing tastes of
audiences, the rise of Karaoke and video games in pubs along with far
more stringent licensing requirements for a live music venue license,
increases in public liabiity insurance and the local Musicians Union
being a pathetic joke and doing bugger all to save the live scene. If
the truth be told the Muso's union was run by a bunch of old F*wits
who were only interested in Jazz and as long as their beloved Jazz
dives didn't suffer they didn't give a damn. In the end the Muso's
Union was swallowed up by Actors Equity.
Ian
Ian
Not just larger venues but also larger better funded tours in the same
venue. It's mostly to do with running larger better equipped rigs and
audiences expecting it to be louder (and thus giving the audience what
it wants). Permanent engineering staff for a tour help a lot as they
tend to push it along on the faders. Live rock has this trait.
For me a typical example is a fiarly well known venue here in Perth. I
go in with a local act and it's a 110db SPL A weighted (slow) level at
the FOH control imposed by venue management. Yet a month later I do
the same venue with an international act and the management bitch that
it's too quiet at 110 dB and want it pushed up to 118-120 dB. After
discussions with managment their rationale is that the punters
expected a major act to be a lot louder than a local act given the 8 x
ticket price difference.
So it' out with the ear plugs (eventually) and push up the faders a
few more notches. (grin).
ian
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Ian" <per_ardua_a...@yahoo.remove.com> wrote in message
news:5jh793pnf9stbon0t...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:17:58 GMT, <tbmo...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>>most the bands with thier own engineers end up around 116 in my town
>>but I had one act that soundchecked at 128!!!
>>iot was painful outside the venue
>>of course the engineer at the controls /and the venue is liable for the
>>abuse and damage done to the audience
>>I try to keep 105 as my max
>>george
>>
>
> Australia is wierd with it's venue licensing. Over in the Eastern
> states a lot of the smaller suburban pub/club type venues have the
> lights 'o death meters hooked in to the main power distro.
>
> Many of the lights of death are set for 90 dB SPL (A weighted slow
> response), which is fine for an accoustic act or duo but way too low
> for rock, punk, metal etc.
>
> For those that haven't encountered a meter 'o death it's an SPL meter
> and cut out switch that has 3 lamps that give a visual indication of
> how loud the gig is. If the top lamp (red) glows for more than about
> a second the power is cut to the stage area and FOH power feeds. On
> the third cut out it's usual practice to have a time lockout engaged
> that precludes any more performance that night.
I wish we had that here
it would take all the piss and vinager out of those cocky DJ's
george
michael gaster
>> Ian
>
> 120db? In a bar?
>
> Ron(UK)
hehehe
TimPerry
> >You are going to get a stereo effect for background music in a 55X16 ft
> >room?
> >
> >If even coverage is desired a distributed speaker system is indicated.
>
> Thats another question. We don't know the coverage, or I missed it.
Room size was given in the first post.
> I see no problem with stereo in those dimensions, or or I better say
> spacial information or 3D vs one demension. In a large 100 by 100 ft.
> room, crisscrossing ceiling speakers can be done. it may not
> be true stereo, but it sounds much different than mono. I never find
stereo
> installations. Its much easier to install mono, and cheaper, perhaps
> the prime reason why I can't hear stereo.
>
> greg
At one point in my life I did sales/service/instillations for what seemed
like every bar & club in a major city (and suburbs). One particular bar used
to redesign itself every 6 months. No two systems were ever alike. One bar
used a stage mixer and a zone matrix to adjust multiple feeds to multiple
Zones. This bar also had a zone of Bertagni flat panel speakers that fit in
the drop ceiling.
I had one with a 30" (approx) subwoofer mounted in the ceiling. (it sounded
like dreck)
I had one with literally hundreds of peizos mounted in banks on the dance
floor walls (also sounded like dreck)
Pretty much the only constant was: stereo for dance floor, mono everywhere
else.
The whole point of a distributed system is to space the speakers so the
listener mainly hears mainly one or two.
Although the ceiling height hasn't been mentioned I would assume it will be
in the 8' range. A very high ceiling would affect the recommendation.
There is no reason that a ceiling speaker system for weekdays and a larger
performance system for party time could not be employed here. (other then
budget constraints) One of the problems with a performance system in this
sized venue is it can be so loud that bartenders can't hear the drink
orders. This is a serious concern to them as it will affect their tips.
Eeyore
michael gaster wrote:
> "Eeyore" wrote
> >>
> >> Whack!!!! (imagine a school house nun with a ruler applying it your your
> >> hands)
> >>
> >> you weren't paying attention (again) were you???
> >>
> >> go back, look, read, and report your findings here...
> >>
> >> I will even make it a little easier for you:
> >>
> >> http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/products/65/CMS401e-data-file.pdf
> >
> > The range of tilt still ends up with the treble mainly on the floor.
>
>
> as with anything audio... at what frequency?
The treble frequencies.
Do you normally listen to speakers by placing yourself off-axis wrt them ?
Graham
Eeyore
Ian wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> >Ian wrote:
> >
> >> Other venues are unrestricted, though it's sensible to keep it to
> >> around 100-110 at the FOH position which is what I aim for at most
> >> pub/club gigs with larger concerts creeping up to 115-120 dB.
> >
> >Why exactly do you think it's normal for 'larger concerts' (do you mean venues)
> >to be 10dB louder ?
>
>
> Not just larger venues but also larger better funded tours in the same
> venue. It's mostly to do with running larger better equipped rigs and
> audiences expecting it to be louder (and thus giving the audience what
> it wants). Permanent engineering staff for a tour help a lot as they
> tend to push it along on the faders. Live rock has this trait.
>
> For me a typical example is a fiarly well known venue here in Perth. I
> go in with a local act and it's a 110db SPL A weighted (slow) level at
> the FOH control imposed by venue management. Yet a month later I do
> the same venue with an international act and the management bitch that
> it's too quiet at 110 dB and want it pushed up to 118-120 dB. After
> discussions with managment their rationale is that the punters
> expected a major act to be a lot louder than a local act given the 8 x
> ticket price difference.
>
> So it' out with the ear plugs (eventually) and push up the faders a
> few more notches. (grin).
It's bloody stupid.
I've thankfully only once seen that attitude once in many years now.
Sam Brown played the local venue and they demanded 'rock and roll' levels, so
wouldn't use the house rig ( ~ 4kW) for the 300 capacity venue. The back room where
the band plays is only about 1/3 of the floor area btw. The brought their own kit
and it was truly the most horrible sound ever. I didn't have the SPL meter handy
but I expect it would have registered 120dB. It was painful to listen to. No-one
seemd to enjoy it. I retreated to another part of the pub to save my hearing. I hope
the sound tech dies a painful death.
Graham
Eeyore
tbmo...@peoplepc.com wrote:
> "Ian" wrote
> >
> > Many of the lights of death are set for 90 dB SPL (A weighted slow
> > response), which is fine for an accoustic act or duo but way too low
> > for rock, punk, metal etc.
> >
> > For those that haven't encountered a meter 'o death it's an SPL meter
> > and cut out switch that has 3 lamps that give a visual indication of
> > how loud the gig is. If the top lamp (red) glows for more than about
> > a second the power is cut to the stage area and FOH power feeds. On
> > the third cut out it's usual practice to have a time lockout engaged
> > that precludes any more performance that night.
>
> I wish we had that here
No you don't.
It makes amplified music *IMPOSSIBLE*.
"Many of the lights of death are set for 90 dB SPL"
Graham
Eeyore
TimPerry wrote:
> There is no reason that a ceiling speaker system for weekdays and a larger
> performance system for party time could not be employed here.
That's not what he asked for.
Graham
Ian
<gas...@gastereng.com> wrote:
>"Ron(UK)" <r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
>news:n9WdnSwzOZS...@bt.com...
>
>>> Ian
>>
>> 120db? In a bar?
>>
>> Ron(UK)
>
>hehehe
I don't think Ron or Graham would wanna be within 20 miles of a
Motorhead gig in a bar ....
Ian
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>It's bloody stupid.
It can be.
>I've thankfully only once seen that attitude once in many years now.
>Sam Brown played the local venue and they demanded 'rock and roll' levels, so
>wouldn't use the house rig ( ~ 4kW) for the 300 capacity venue. The back room where
>the band plays is only about 1/3 of the floor area btw. The brought their own kit
>and it was truly the most horrible sound ever. I didn't have the SPL meter handy
>but I expect it would have registered 120dB. It was painful to listen to. No-one
>seemd to enjoy it. I retreated to another part of the pub to save my hearing. I hope
>the sound tech dies a painful death.
That would have been painful on the ears. Bright twangy rock and roll
guitars and country and western etc don't do well at high SPL levels.
I worked quite a lot of gigs with a 60s cover band years ago and
always kept them down to around 105 dB at the desk. It was a nice
level that wasn't fatiguing on the ears.
The scooped mids of a heavy rock guitar are far better suited to high
SPL applications.
Ian
Ian
>> For those that haven't encountered a meter 'o death it's an SPL meter
>> and cut out switch that has 3 lamps that give a visual indication of
>> how loud the gig is. If the top lamp (red) glows for more than about
>> a second the power is cut to the stage area and FOH power feeds. On
>> the third cut out it's usual practice to have a time lockout engaged
>> that precludes any more performance that night.
>
>I wish we had that here
>it would take all the piss and vinager out of those cocky DJ's
>george
I love most DJ's (not). I've met a few that know what they are doing,
but most are about as clueless as their audience. By far away the
worst DJ rig I've ever heard was at the old Electric Ballroom in
Sydney, the rig was from memory 9 or 10 Renkus Heinz M1 or 2s with B1
subs scattered through the venue. I can vividly remember hearing the
unsweet sound of massive speaker breakup at even low volume levels
when the system was being run as background music and thinking to
myself the f**k we are going to use this for FOH tonight.
I've just had a chance to check what's left of my old gig/ venue
notes. A lot of the meters were also set for 100 dB SPL A weighted
slow. Given the meters were usually mounted within a couple of meters
of the stage it's still too bloody low for a lot of rooms.
Ian
Ian
wrote:
>And you better be careful of what your putting in the ceiling.
>Distributed is fine. But if your in a plenum ceiling with a non rated
>wooden box and are stupid and have a fire or such, you may be in
>for a lot more than you expected.
>
>Bob
I suspect that's the case in most western countries these days.
Ian
Phildo
> "Mike Dobony" <sw...@notasarian-host.net> wrote in message
> news:FQski.4174$bz7....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>> Greg, remember you are talking to King George who demands that you
>> sacrifice everything important to buy the best equipment. It doesn't
>> matter if you don't have the funds available and go bankrupt to get the
>> best. To him, sound reinforcement is a god to sacrifice to. Sound
>> reinforcement is a master to be served instead of a tool to serve. Sound
>> reinforcement is God and he is the high priest.
Please ignore anything this fuckwit writes. He has proven on here many times
over he is a sanctimonious, holier-than-though arrogant prick who doesn't
have a clue about pro audio and is nowhere near qualified to give advice on
anything audio related.
George is one of most respected posters on here, runs a very successful
sound company and has done hundreds if not thousands of installs of the type
you are asking about. Dobby volunteers to do sound at his local church and
has zero knowledge or professional experience. You do the math.
He is just pissed at George because George has helped Dobby make a fool of
himself on numerous occasions on here. Suffice to say you are best off doing
what most of the rest of the group has done already and killfile this
loony-toons bible thumper who is the very worst kind of xtian and would make
his god ashamed of the actions Dobby carries out in his name. [1]
Phildo
[1] the lack of a well-placed lightning bolt leaving only a smoking pair of
shoes where Dobby once stood is yet more proof that his god doesn't exist.
Phildo
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:30:00 +0100, Eeyore
> <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Ian wrote:
>>
>>> 110-120 dB SPL is the range for most rock concerts.
>>
>>Where the fuck are you measuring 120dB in a venue ?
>>
>>You haven't the tiniest idea what you're talking about.
>>
>
> You're the one who's clueless. Having done a few thousand shows and
> measured the SPL at the FOH everytime I stand by those figures.
>
> reinforcment work, if any.
Let's just say he's regarded in the same light as the other person we
discussed in another thread on here in the last few days by most people.
Pity as he used to be a useful and respected poster but has suffered some
sort of nervous breakdown recently and gone off on some wild vendetta
against Behringer. By the way, if he threatens to set his lawyers on you
then don't worry, it's all hot air on his part. George and myself are both
still waiting to hear from them after he promised faithfully to sue us. [1]
Phildo
[1] something else he has in common with the FOH fuckwit previously
discussed who also promised to set lawyers on George and myself then tried
to back-pedal with some hilarious excuses (as usual)
Phildo
> For those that haven't encountered a meter 'o death it's an SPL meter
> and cut out switch that has 3 lamps that give a visual indication of
> how loud the gig is. If the top lamp (red) glows for more than about
> a second the power is cut to the stage area and FOH power feeds. On
> the third cut out it's usual practice to have a time lockout engaged
> that precludes any more performance that night. Needless to say
> bypassing the lights 'o death is an absolute no no as not only can the
> venue loose its license but who ever is responsible for bypassing the
> unit can be fined thousands of dollars under various state noise
> abatement regulations.
They have a formula sound guardian in the crew bar on the ship I was on up
until last week which was set by one of the electro-tech officers.
Unfortunately the guy who set it just happened to have a cabin directly
above the crew bar and liked an early night. Suffice to say crew discos have
been disasters ever since ;-(
Phildo
Ron(UK)
> Sam Brown played the local venue and they demanded 'rock and roll' levels, so
> wouldn't use the house rig ( ~ 4kW) for the 300 capacity venue. The back room where
> the band plays is only about 1/3 of the floor area btw. The brought their own kit
> and it was truly the most horrible sound ever. I didn't have the SPL meter handy
> but I expect it would have registered 120dB. It was painful to listen to. No-one
> seemd to enjoy it. I retreated to another part of the pub to save my hearing. I hope
> the sound tech dies a painful death.
>
She`s coming to my venue soon - she won't be getting 'rock n roll' levels!
Ron(UK)
Ron(UK)
Back in the 70s I witnessed Uriah Heap in a tiny cellar bar! At that
time they claimd to be the loudest band on Earth - That was before
Disaster Area of course.
Ron(UK)
Eeyore
Phildo wrote:
> Pity as he used to be a useful and respected poster but has suffered some
> sort of nervous breakdown recently
Projection again !
Graham
Eeyore
"Ron(UK)" wrote:
That'll be an improvement.
Graham
Frisco
Sure he did... "we hope it'll be party-like
on week-ends, and maybe more quiet on week days"
Paul
Béru
> Hi,
>
> I need some advice in choosing and placing speakers in our bar. The
> room is about 55'x16' (18m x 5m). Walls are concrete blocks and there
> is a suspended ceiling. We will just be playing CDs, no live bands
> yet.
Thanks everyone for the helpful comments... One last question: how
should I place the speakers ? Especially, what height, knowing that
the suspended ceiling is 10' high ?
Beru
Eeyore
Frisco wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> >TimPerry wrote:
> >
> >> There is no reason that a ceiling speaker system for weekdays and a larger
> >> performance system for party time could not be employed here.
> >
> >That's not what he asked for.
>
> Sure he did... "we hope it'll be party-like
> on week-ends, and maybe more quiet on week days"
" no live bands yet." In my book that means no 'performances'.
Graham
TimPerry
your book needs editing.
Eeyore
Béru wrote:
> Béru <bense...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I need some advice in choosing and placing speakers in our bar. The
> > room is about 55'x16' (18m x 5m). Walls are concrete blocks and there
> > is a suspended ceiling. We will just be playing CDs, no live bands
> > yet.
>
> Thanks everyone for the helpful comments... One last question: how
> should I place the speakers ? Especially, what height, knowing that
> the suspended ceiling is 10' high ?
I'd place them a bit above head height (say 7'6") and angled slightly down.
Graham
michael gaster
>
> The treble frequencies.
>
> Do you normally listen to speakers by placing yourself off-axis wrt them ?
>
> Graham
>
Graham,
do you have any real design/build experience with commercial/music system
installations?
I don't think you really understand the application here, what the listener
will be in the room for, the dispersion of the (suggested) speakers (or any
for that matter) @ 6, 8 or 10kHz (not that that really matters at this
point). nor am I going to take the time to educate you.
you may be a fine system tech/fader jockey but I'm not too impressed with
what you have had to say with regards to music/distributed audio systems.
Eeyore
michael gaster wrote:
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >
> > The treble frequencies.
> >
> > Do you normally listen to speakers by placing yourself off-axis wrt them ?
> >
> > Graham
>
> Graham,
>
> do you have any real design/build experience with commercial/music system
> installations?
Yes.
> I don't think you really understand the application here,
I understand it perfectly. It's just like the venue I'm involved with.
> what the listener will be in the room for, the dispersion of the (suggested)
> speakers (or any
> for that matter) @ 6, 8 or 10kHz (not that that really matters at this
> point). nor am I going to take the time to educate you.
I can't even begin to understand the above since for one thing it's not a proper
sentence. Removing the bits in parentheses we have.....
"what the listener will be in the room for, the dispersion of the speakers @ 6,
8 or 10kHz "
That's not a sentence.
I suspect you may be trying to say the HF dispersion doesn't matter. I certainly
can't agree with that.
> you may be a fine system tech/fader jockey but I'm not too impressed with
> what you have had to say with regards to music/distributed audio systems.
Please explain why you think a ceiling speaker that basically points towards the
floor will sound better for moderately decent quality *music* than wall mounted
speakers at head height. that won't be far off-axis with most ppls' ears.
Graham
michael gaster
news:1184154893....@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Beru
What speakers are you going with and how many?
michael gaster
<snip>
you really have a hard time paying attention. here I will re write this...
I don't think you really understand:
- the application here
-what the listener will be in the room for
-the dispersion of the (suggested) speakers (or any for that matter) @ 6, 8
or 10kHz (not that that really matters at this point)
what doesn't matter is the dispersion when it seems you don't get the 1st
two points.
michael gaster
>
> Please explain why you think a ceiling speaker that basically points
> towards the
> floor will sound better for moderately decent quality *music* than wall
> mounted
> speakers at head height. that won't be far off-axis with most ppls' ears.
>
> Graham
actually Graham... would you care to explain why every manufacture is
expanding their inwall/ceiling speaker lines?
and could you tell me why in a BGM application you would want on axis sound?
Frisco
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>michael gaster wrote:
>
>> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>
>I understand it perfectly. It's just like the venue I'm involved with.
>
>> what the listener will be in the room for, the dispersion of the (suggested)
>> speakers (or any
>> for that matter) @ 6, 8 or 10kHz (not that that really matters at this
>> point). nor am I going to take the time to educate you.
>
>I can't even begin to understand the above since for one thing it's not a proper
>sentence. Removing the bits in parentheses we have.....
>
>"what the listener will be in the room for, the dispersion of the speakers @ 6,
>8 or 10kHz "
>
>That's not a sentence.
>
Hmmm... no offense, but it actually *was* a sentence before you
chopped it in half and put your comments in the middle. Put it back
together and replace the comma's with the word "or" if that works
better for you.
>> I don't think you really understand the application here OR
>> what the listener will be in the room for OR
>> the dispersion of the speakers @ 6, 8 or 10kHz
Eeyore
michael gaster wrote:
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> <snip>
>
> you really have a hard time paying attention.
I think you're having a hard time understanding the OP's requirements but there
you go...
> here I will re write this...
>
> I don't think you really understand:
> - the application here
'Background' music. Actually, my interpretation is that it's more than just
'background' but OTOH it's not intended to be so overpowering as to interfere
with conversation. I'm very familiar with this kind of application. You'll find
it in many bars. It's intended to be decent quality and it's not required as a
PA system for performers.
> -what the listener will be in the room for
To socialise primarily and have a few drinks.
> -the dispersion of the (suggested) speakers (or any for that matter) @ 6, 8
> or 10kHz (not that that really matters at this point)
>
> what doesn't matter is the dispersion when it seems you don't get the 1st
> two points.
I'm getting the impression you don't understand those points actually.
I reckon you also need a few lessons in English. You're hopless at sentence
construction and explaining WTF you're talking about.
Graham