Church Monitor Console Suggestions
BNB Sound
Right now they have a Midas Legend 3000 48ch out front and some wheezy
old Yamaha piece of crap for a monitor desk. They're looking to keep
the whole project under US$10k and already have a good split snake.
The production crew is 100% volunteer and they let the performers
touch the mix for their IEMs. (There are also 4 wedge mixes from FOH)
Their standard setup includes 6 wireless IEMS for singers but can call
for more on special occasions and they'd like it to be rider friendly
for when they have acts in from out of town.
I was thinking about an A&H GL2800 which would give me 8 mono and one
stereo plus the main outs and four matrix outs. It's not too
staggering to walk up to as a noob and it fits their price range. I'd
appreciate any comments on that choice and any other suggestions for
consoles you think might work.
Jon D
BNB Sound
Denny Strauser
What kind of wheezy old Yamaha are you talking about? You could probably
buy a used 40 channel Yamaha PM 3000 for about $5,000. It has 16 auxes &
8 matrix, plus VCA's. It should be rider friendly. At that price, you
could have it refurbished & like new.
- Denny
Krooburg Science
The recently discontinued GL2800M (monitor version) has *16* aux
sends. The 16 auxes also can be paired for stereo operation. I'd look
into that.
- K
Joe Kotroczo
b3811d39-d585-46b2...@h36g2000pro.googlegroups.com, "Krooburg
Science" <kroo...@gmail.com> wrote:
For about $7000 I believe one can get a Soundcraft SM20 in very nice
condition, which has 20 sends and which I personally would prefer to mix on.
I've seen 48-channel Soundcraft SM24 go for $10K.
--
only a dead .sig is a good .sig
Michael Dobony
How about a couple of Aviom A-16II Personal Mixers? We have about 8 or so
of these and everybody gets to mix their own mix. Works out pretty well.
George's Pro Sound Company
"BNB Sound" <j...@bnbsound.com> wrote in message
news:9b56aa36-e4e2-4781...@v8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Move into the digital domain with a ls9, even a NEW ls9/32 is under 7500
will give you 16 monitor mixes and full processing along with parametric eq
on every channel and the graphics on the outs
take up a 1/4 of the room of anything you're looking at , will sound better
and be much more reliable than anything A&H has ever marketed under 18K$,
will allow wlan config for on stage tuning , memories for different set ups
, and you will not be buying outmoded crap on the used market
there is no down side to this for you
George
Joe Kotroczo
3YadnX59X7CVB0bQ...@posted.fingerlakestechnologygroup,
I'd strongly suggest to stay well clear of digitial if as he says "they let
the performers touch the mix for their IEMs". It won't work.
George's Pro Sound Company
"Joe Kotroczo" <kotr...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:CA016E58.F3BB9%kotr...@mac.com...
permissions feature to give the muso access to ONLY the features you want
them to have, and password protect everything else, making it more fool
proof than even the simpliest analog unit
George
George's Pro Sound Company
>> I'd strongly suggest to stay well clear of digitial if as he says "they
>> let
>> the performers touch the mix for their IEMs". It won't work.
The yamaha digitals with their password protection are designed exactly to
resolve what you are afraid of Joe, you only give each user access to the
features you(the system admin) decides they can have, the rest is locked
away untouchable, how hard is it to tell them, you are mix six, press this
six and turn the big knob up or down?
,, if you are letting everyone get at everything all the time, nothing is
going to work.
also with the analog to reset you need a mark up sheet for the default and
someone who can read it
if the yamaha get putzed with just recall the base preset and slap those
hands that putz too much
george
Richard Webb
>> Move into the digital domain with a ls9, even a NEW ls9/32 is under 7500
>> will give you 16 monitor mixes and full processing along with parametric eq
>> on every channel and the graphics on the outs
>> take up a 1/4 of the room of anything you're looking at , will sound better
>> and be much more reliable than anything A&H has ever marketed under 18K$,
>> will allow wlan config for on stage tuning , memories for different set ups
>> , and you will not be buying outmoded crap on the used market
>> there is no down side to this for you
> I'd strongly suggest to stay well clear of digitial if as he says
> "they let the performers touch the mix for their IEMs". It won't
> work.
I'm with JOe on this one. IF they had an op dedicated to
mixing monitors I could see that, the ls9 is great kit for
the application, and the only reason I wouldn't spec one for myself if doing that gig would be that I'd have to deal with a computer to run it, and that would mean synthesized
speech, impractical in many sound reinforcement contexts,
but can work, especially once it's set up.
fOr performers tweaking however I'd stick with something
they can operate whilst nearly brain dead, i.e. Lady singer
knows that the x knob on each channel adjusts her mix in her iems, etc.
As George notes, lots of advantages to his approach, but
that would require the church to traing one or more monitor
ops.
Regards,
Richard
... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet<->Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
Michael Dobony
We have at least 20 people on the various praise teams. Each one knows how
to adjust their own mix themselves with personal monitor mixers and IEMs.
They can each put in just what they need/want. No extra tech needed. No
trying to figure out hand gestures from 3 people at once during a song.
They just reach down and make their own adjustments.
alex
it a thousand times here. Is ok.
If musicians are allowed to "touch" the mix doesn't always mean that a
"permission" or "censorship" problem is involved.
Sometimes is just a matter of saving the time needed to teach how to use
the console, every day to every musician.
alex
Denny Strauser
> <snipped>
> For about $7000 I believe one can get a Soundcraft SM20 in very nice
> condition, which has 20 sends and which I personally would prefer to mix on.
> I've seen 48-channel Soundcraft SM24 go for $10K.
I would second this motion.
http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=18
This is designed to be a monitor console.
- Denny
George's Pro Sound Company
"alex" <gra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ddbfb85$0$38650$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...
no it means untrained people feel empowered to get into something they ought
not be doing, and when you can limit them to only what they are allowed to
do via a password that you give them then they do not screw with stuff they
don't understand
as they will when given free access to a entire desk and sound system, why
do you think password protection was created for sound systems
I use it when giving my systems over to guest engineer my crossovers are
password protected as are my system eqs, to not do so is being foolish
alex
> no it means untrained people feel empowered to get into something they ought
> not be doing, and when you can limit them to only what they are allowed to
> do via a password that you give them then they do not screw with stuff they
> don't understand
understand"!
This way you will make the work hard for the occasional musician and
impossible for the skilled engineer. Apparently you like to be called
every two minutes with a "hey Ma, please, help us with you wonderful
knowledge and... your password."
> as they will when given free access to a entire desk and sound system, why
> do you think password protection was created for sound systems
no. this was created to be able to "fire" the resident sound engineer,
George. ;-)
> I use it when giving my systems over to guest engineer my crossovers are
> password protected as are my system eqs, to not do so is being foolish
As guest engineer, sometimes this happen to me too. After the show i
point the problem with the organizer showing how better the sound could
be without this lock on the sys eq. Hopefully they will choose another
sound rental company the next time.
Live music is an artistic expression! You need to work WITH engineers
and musicians not AGAINST. This will make the REAL difference between
your company and the competitors.
alex
Denny Strauser
This is likely because you didn't do your homework. In my situations, I
always do my homework. I download & read all manuals of all equipment I
expect to work with. And more likely than not, the system engineer knows
more about his system when he leaves, then when he came.
- Denny
alex
> This is likely because you didn't do your homework. In my situations, I
> always do my homework. I download & read all manuals of all equipment I
> expect to work with. And more likely than not, the system engineer knows
> more about his system when he leaves, then when he came.
>
> - Denny
same for me but, unfortunately, this not include passwords.
I found really many not-so-well-tuned systems, believe me.
The most common problem is not time aligned subwoofers.
This is very hard to accomplish on a passwd protected system!
Other than this, poor balanced speaker management systems can't be
overrided very well with foh 1/3 octave eq!
I usually don't tune systems by myself but i rather ASK the local
engineer to do it for me, dealing with him, accepting hints and telling
him what i need to be tweaked. We are working together with a common
target, the show.
The most stupid situation is where the local engineer symply doesn't
have the passwd because the rental guy supposed to have found the
"perfect setup" and then he leaves.
By the way, Denny, the OP mentioned the need to allow musicians to
"touch" the mix...
alex
Denny Strauser
If I was someone else here, I might be rude & say exactly what I'm
thinking. It will suffice to say; "Do your homework."
If you leave it up to someone else to do your job, you are FU*KED from
the start. You will likely be doing lights next year ...
- Denny
alex
> If you leave it up to someone else to do your job, you are FU*KED from
> the start. You will likely be doing lights next year ...
systems setup in venues where i'm the GUEST is not my job, but sometime
i need a tweak...
i just said that system "control" and "management" can be done much
better through DEAL and TALK rather than PASSWORDS and CENSORSHIPS.
Nothing less, nothing more. No need to be RUDE at all...
goodnight
alex
Denny Strauser
At my age, I don't hesitate to make my needs, wants & eccentricities
known. I know what I want to accomplish because I've done my homework.
If you - or any system engineer takes it personally - I let that roll
off my shoulder like any rain. If I seem to insult your intelligence, I
apologize. But, I don't care who you are. I have a job to do ..... & ...
I do it ...
- Denny
George's Pro Sound Company
First off ALEX this is NOT a rental system, this is a INSTALLED system where
one spends days analyzing and tuning, do you think for one second anyone
would hand over the access to a carefully tuned system to the knob jockey
of the day?
also with my rental system show me your not the total ignorant asswipe you
come off as here on this newsgroup and I am happy to let you do anything
you want but not until you have shown me more than you have figured out how
to stand upright. there are at least 6 regular posters here who I have hired
who have established themselves as not just great engineers , who I glad
let do what ever they want with my rigs,sometimes for better, sometimes for
worse,but they are also good people, I hire them, I don't see myself adding
your name to that list any time soon
Michael Dobony
Alex, I don't see you arguing from the situation given or the one George
presented. You are changing the situation. Your argument is precisely why a
digital system would be an excellent choice. This is not a rental system,
but a permanently installed system run by the same tech all the time, with
limited access to individual musicians. They will not be allowed to touch
things they don't understand. Your argument gives the musician unlimited
access to things he or she probably does not understand with no guards over
them.
alex
> Alex, I don't see you arguing from the situation given or the one George
> presented. You are changing the situation. Your argument is precisely why a
> digital system would be an excellent choice. This is not a rental system,
> but a permanently installed system run by the same tech all the time, with
> limited access to individual musicians. They will not be allowed to touch
> things they don't understand. Your argument gives the musician unlimited
> access to things he or she probably does not understand with no guards over
> them.
I don't want to give unlimited access to the musician with "limited
knowledge" (even if i know many musicians with a LOT of knowledge!).
I simply stated that is a BAD idea to rely on locking systems instead of
human control.
This is a fixed install, ok.
The same technician i here all the time, ok.
so, why not to manage an open and well tuned system while the local
engineer is here to help an control? I remember to all folks here that
we are talking about a monitor desk! (and we all are OT)
Quality performances are acheived trough a cooperation of professional
figures, why put a stupid hardware limit into this?
Even if is stated that musicians will have a degree of control over his
own mix, why impose quality (not quantity) limits where an engineer is
here to help?
I think human performace is preferable over hardware control, specially
in live situations.
The password lock is here to prevent unhautorized access to the system,
thus they will impose a smaller degree of control. If a local engineer
is always present, this will be just a stupid limit.
Again, i don't talk about "safety" settings for the system, those to
prevent damages, i'm talking about the ability to control your own damn
IEM mix...
digital or not digital?
digitals have the limit to be unfamiliar for people not involved in the
business. Musicians will interface better with a simple small analogue
board than with a (locked) digital. But this is only my opinion.
Well trained guest professionals will work much better with unlocked
systems while producing less damages.
Ok not all guests are "good", but the best way to discover this is
DEALING WITH...
Finally, from the human point of view, the hardware lock is here to
"inform" peoples that they are "unfit" to control the system and that
they can use just a fraction of the system potential.
An high priced system deserve to be USED and its users deserve to get
the most from it.
Protecting access to features with passwords is not the best idea while
protecting the investment.
The show business needs human work. Please don't let somebody fire an
engineer beacuse the password will do better his work...
excuse me for the "imperfections" in the language.
alex
Ron
i don't talk about "safety" settings for the system, those to
> prevent damages, i'm talking about the ability to control your own damn
> IEM mix...
I think you will find that you can cause an awful lot of serious damage
with an out of control IEM.
Ron(UK)
George's Pro Sound Company
> Finally, from the human point of view, the hardware lock is here to
> "inform" peoples that they are "unfit" to control the system
if the shoe fits.
many people feel way more qulified than they actually are.
George's Pro Sound Company
"Ron" <r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:GPqdneGFrqs97kLQ...@bt.com...
and one way to prevent that is to have a non defetable limiter, and mix
eq(if needed, most IEM don't really need mix eq) either password protected
or in a locked cabinet
I don't care which, the end result is the same, system protection, better
quality sound for everyone, even the ones that don't want better quality
sound
Denny Strauser
I have setup password protected systems. But, I've tried to set them up
to only protect the system. But, nothing is fool-proof - trust me. I've
had headliners demand that I only give opening acts 3/4 the system
capability. I don't work that way, unless someone wants to provide a
suitable bribe (everyone has a price). Mine is expensive. If the
headliner gets upstaged, it is not, & never will be, my fault ...
My belief is that we all succeed or fail on our own merits. I've done
both. But, when you've been in this business as long as me, you'll
understand. They cannot all be winners ...
- Denny
alex
> Like hell your touching my carefully aligned crossovers, delay times,
> all pass filters etc etc. All you get is a graphic inserted to LR. I
> set the limits, not you! Promotors that contract me know that and value
> that.
> If you make a mess of it, go to loud, you get one warning only, then you
> are asked to step away from the desk.if you spil drinks or sigaret ash
> your out right away. I you complain about that your sound could be so
> much better when given the total control over a multi hundred thousand
> euro's system i wil find you and your band and make very, very clear
> that they are in need of a sound engineer
> luckaly the guest enineers that i meet are not all totally lame so this
> has happened only once in my 23 years of SR.
> Then i do about 50% briefcase, I come in as a guest and act accordingly.
> If i want something changed of the rig i ASK, and if not possible there
> is 99.9% of the time a valid reason to that.
From the system point of view, you are right, even if the band i'm
working with now, use to place the drum set very close to the stage
front edge, on the left side. This means that we have to touch a little
bit the "delay" setting of the subs to work as best with this setup.
This will help to reduce the need of power, because "aligned" is more
efficent, and the system will be "safer" and tighter. Second, digital
speaker management systems HAS PRESETS, so is pretty fast to revert
every change to the previously carefully obtained setup.
Another change i used to ASK, is a few dB reduction on the lower
section. I found this change much more efficient than correcting it with
the eq. I don't know why, i see many setups with the subwoofers simply
too loud... And sadly very often misplaced in the room.
Too often the very carefully aligned and controlled setup is not aligned
and well tuned at all, believe me. In 20 years of touring i saw almost
everything imaginable!!!
I will not touch your settings, but i will deal with you exposing my
special needs in the hope you can comply with it. I'm pretty sure i told
this before in the previous posts.
Many times i got this answer: "ah.. uh... i don't know... here is the
crossover do yourself!". Good this was not password protected...
I agree with you, Mark, i only stated that a capable engineer present in
the venue will be much better than a password protected system, nothing
more than this!
Your system is well tuned? ok fine, this will save me much time, but i
was hired to get the most out of the system, everyday. Sometimes this
involve some simple tweaking which i will do with the help of the local
engineer not behind his back...
By the way, i remember you Mark that we was talking about stage console
settings, not PA crossover settings...
regards alex
George's Pro Sound Company
> I agree with you, Mark, i only stated that a capable engineer present in
> the venue will be much better than a password protected system, nothing
> more than this!
except that is not what you were arguing for
my original post was to password protect the system so the MUSOs who know
nothing about system engineering can adjust theuir monitor levels when a
trained capable engineer is not on hand, and do so with out getting into
stuff that simply is noe of thier business
now as to if you are capable, 20 years would make you capable on your own
rig , but very doubtful you will do anything good to a system I have
installed and spent days(sometime weeks) analysing and tuning , especially
when you are walking in cold to a room that I have spent years in. with
engineer I trust I take the night off, I give them A1 positions with my
systems , I buy them dinner and listen to suggestions they make, but that
trust does not come from simply showing up 45 minutes before your acts set
and thinking you are god of the night. doesn't happen that way, ever.
George
Denny Strauser
> I'm looking into a new monitor console for a church I'm helping out.
> Right now they have a Midas Legend 3000 48ch out front and some wheezy
> old Yamaha piece of crap for a monitor desk. They're looking to keep
> the whole project under US$10k and already have a good split snake.
> The production crew is 100% volunteer and they let the performers
> touch the mix for their IEMs. (There are also 4 wedge mixes from FOH)
> Their standard setup includes 6 wireless IEMS for singers but can call
> for more on special occasions and they'd like it to be rider friendly
> for when they have acts in from out of town.
>
> I was thinking about an A&H GL2800 which would give me 8 mono and one
> stereo plus the main outs and four matrix outs. It's not too
> staggering to walk up to as a noob and it fits their price range. I'd
> appreciate any comments on that choice and any other suggestions for
> consoles you think might work.
>
> Jon D
> BNB Sound
Consider this:
http://www.aviom.com/AviomApplications/Monitor-Mixing.cfm
- Denny
Denny Strauser
A few of these & an LS9 will give performers the ability of mixing their
own monitors without touching the console.
- Denny
Denny Strauser
Or this:
http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100024
- Denny
Denny Strauser
You might want to read this article:
http://www.churchproduction.com/go.php/article/networked_personal_monitor_mixers?p=1
- Denny
alex
> with
> engineer I trust I take the night off, I give them A1 positions with my
> systems , I buy them dinner and listen to suggestions they make, but that
> trust does not come from simply showing up 45 minutes before your acts set
> and thinking you are god of the night. doesn't happen that way, ever.
> George
time before the show. Nice idea to get the dinner payed ;-)
In medium and small sized venues the time alignment with stage
instrument amplifiers and drum is important. Even a perfectly tuned
system can still need some adjustment depending on the band playing.
This will decrease importance with the growth of the venue and system size.
When i feel this need i always ask! My first need is not to step over
people but, instead, "dealing" with them. I stated this 10 times.
Not all changes come to destroy the system, and as guest engineer i have
the right to ask whatever is possible to make the show better, providing
people and equipement safety and spl limits, of course.
I never had time to retune entirely a system and is not what i'm payed for.
If your system is perfectly tuned George, it doesn't represent the
totality of venues around. I discovered some well noticeable lack of
"tuning" in more than the half of the systems i worked on, believe it or
not.
alex
George's Pro Sound Company
then you ought be carriny your own digital desk with delays for every
channel , that ay you don't have to even ask about setting the drums and the
house in alignment, you just do it, either insert your delays on the house
mix or on your inputs,, which ever suits your needs best as denny was saying
, if you need to do it you need to have the tools to do it with you., Your
own house graphics, your own efx your own mic kit your own what ever you
need, you should neber go in expecting to have access to house graphs
crossovers and limiters, no well installed club would ever make those
available
George
alex
> then you ought be carriny your own digital desk with delays for every
> channel , that ay you don't have to even ask about setting the drums and the
> house in alignment, you just do it, either insert your delays on the house
> mix or on your inputs,, which ever suits your needs best as denny was saying
> , if you need to do it you need to have the tools to do it with you.
George, while moving the drum set from the back to the front edge of the
stage, the alignment delay becomes SHORTER! I don't know inserted
machines capable to ADVANCE soundwaves...
But in a veeeery well tuned system this is certainly possible ;-)
George's Pro Sound Company
you feel the need to tweek a few milliseconds away from the established
(and properly delayed)drum/backline positions or you can't make the mix
happen?
if it was really important to you would have a delay spec advanced in your
rider stage plot, nd it would be done for you by the house engineer prior to
your arrival
I am calling this your strawman argument to either keep argueing or divert
the thread for reasons unknown
and none of this has squat to do with musos getting at the montior desk to
play with their levels, which is what my suggestion on password protection
directly addressed
but thank you for reminding us of all the other reasons(visiting engineers)
we need to lock down our crossovers, alingment and eq set ups
george
>
>
alex
> you feel the need to tweek a few milliseconds away from the established
> (and properly delayed)drum/backline positions or you can't make the mix
> happen?
> if it was really important to you would have a delay spec advanced in your
> rider stage plot, nd it would be done for you by the house engineer prior to
> your arrival
> I am calling this your strawman argument to either keep argueing or divert
> the thread for reasons unknown
>
> and none of this has squat to do with musos getting at the montior desk to
> play with their levels, which is what my suggestion on password protection
> directly addressed
> but thank you for reminding us of all the other reasons(visiting engineers)
> we need to lock down our crossovers, alingment and eq set ups
> george
understand George, You suggested to carry the outboard...
Michael Dobony
I keep looking at the specific situation and trying to reconcile it with
your double talk. I still can't figure out what you are for or against. You
want unlimited access, but you want limited access. You condemn passwords
for the technician, but we are NOT talking about that, but for the
performers. You condemn normal limits to protect the IEM user, but then
promote them. Your argument seems to be both for and against both digital
and analog mixers. You condemn George's suggestion based upon different
circumstances than the OP presented!
We let every performer control their own mix with personal monitor mixers.
They have built-in limits on what they can control. They can only control
volumes and eq's and effects and gains are controlled by the FOH operator.
There is little difference in what George suggested and the personal
monitor mixer solution other than his requires a tech to run it and the
performer can only adjust his or her mix before the performance.
alex
> I keep looking at the specific situation and trying to reconcile it with
> your double talk. I still can't figure out what you are for or against. You
> want unlimited access, but you want limited access. You condemn passwords
> for the technician, but we are NOT talking about that, but for the
> performers. You condemn normal limits to protect the IEM user, but then
> promote them. Your argument seems to be both for and against both digital
> and analog mixers. You condemn George's suggestion based upon different
> circumstances than the OP presented!
>
What i don't want is a protection on the mixing board features. the
worst thing can happen is a *bad* monitor mix.
I don't condemn the limiter inside the IEMs nor the ones on wedges...
In other words i can accept "quantity" limits but not "quality" limits.
I hope this is more clear now.
The big pro of the ls9-32 are the 16 outs that can be useful while
feeding many IEM mixers. Despite of the feature richness of the ls9, i
think a musician will still deal better with a simple analogue board or
IEM mixer for his own mix.
I don't like the whole soundboard password concept, except for
protecting valuable stored presets...
regards
alex
George's Pro Sound Company
> I don't like the whole soundboard password concept, except for
> protecting valuable stored presets...
> regards
> alex
>
while still giving the muso access to what he/she needs and ONLY what he/she
needs.
George
ti...@alaska.net
"BNB Sound" <j...@bnbsound.com> wrote in message
news:9b56aa36-e4e2-4781...@v8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> I'm looking into a new monitor console for a church I'm helping out.
> Right now they have a Midas Legend 3000 48ch out front and some wheezy
> old Yamaha piece of crap for a monitor desk. They're looking to keep
> the whole project under US$10k and already have a good split snake.
> The production crew is 100% volunteer and they let the performers
> touch the mix for their IEMs. (There are also 4 wedge mixes from FOH)
> Their standard setup includes 6 wireless IEMS for singers but can call
> for more on special occasions and they'd like it to be rider friendly
> for when they have acts in from out of town.
>
> I was thinking about an A&H GL2800 which would give me 8 mono and one
> stereo plus the main outs and four matrix outs. It's not too
> staggering to walk up to as a noob and it fits their price range. I'd
> appreciate any comments on that choice and any other suggestions for
> consoles you think might work.
>
> Jon D
> BNB Sound
Maybe SAC?
Krooburg Science
Fuck NO. A bunch of church volunteer retards that can barely operate
an analog desk would be lost an in abyss with SAC. Worst suggestion
ever.
- K
ti...@alaska.net
"ti...@alaska.net" <ti...@alaska.net> wrote in message
news:4deadc6d$1...@news.acsalaska.net...
Krooburg Science
> "t...@alaska.net" <t...@alaska.net> wrote in message
It's one thing to have a church with some money which usually means at
least some knowledgable staff or an experienced mix engineer. But the
majority have non-technical pinhead volunteers who can barely program
their car stereos let along something as complex as SAC or even basic
digital consoles. Or even basic analog consoles. Most can't even wrap
their heads around basic gain structure and EQ let a long a fully
digital control system. And you think SAC is a good idea? Hardly.
- K
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2011-06-05 kroo...@gmail.com said:
<big snip>
>It's one thing to have a church with some money which usually means
>at least some knowledgable staff or an experienced mix engineer.
>But the majority have non-technical pinhead volunteers who can
>barely program their car stereos let along something as complex as
>SAC or even basic digital consoles. Or even basic analog consoles.
>Most can't even wrap their heads around basic gain structure and EQ
>let a long a fully digital control system. And you think SAC is a
>good idea? Hardly.
I waded into this a couple weeks ago, and am obviously in
agreement with this. THere are a few points that should be
remembered when choosing a system that the unwashed masses
will need to interact with.
so, to follow up my earlier post on the subject. First, George's
suggestion would be most cost effective, better bang for the buck
all around, if the op's client had a regular monitor eng present.
But, I've learned a few things over the years when dealing with
hobbyists, volunteers and complex systems. THese folks may
operate advanced technology in their day jobs but don't really have
the time to learn it adequately for their volunteer activities. IN
this case, we're talking about a singer or performer who needs to
adjust his/her own mix on a console which they don't operate that
often. YEs, the tech team can store their preferred setup in the
console ahead of time, but fine adjustments will be needed. Asking
the housewife who volunteers to sing with the church group to
remember to select the appropriate menu item for her aux send on
the fly in the heat of the battle (performance) might diminish her
enjoyment enough after getting flustered a few times that she quits
performing with the church group.
One can always do something with the aux sends such as
different color dots atop each knob or something, remind
Mrs. housewife amateur that she's the blue colored knob, and
Mr. Jones the retired plumber that hhe's the yellow knobs,
etc.
In my volunteer activities I often find myself needing to hand
another ham operator a portable (walkie talkie for the uninitiated)
on the spur of the moment, as he doesn't have one, or doesn't have
spare batteries for his. IF I'm using the 440 mhz band for
communications I prefer to hand him a MOtorolla brick which was
designed and certified for firefighter or law enforcement duty. I
prefer to hand him that over one of my dedicated ham portables, as
it has only six operating channels, adjusted with a knob on the top
and otherwise possessing a volume control.
IF I hand him one of my more versatile units I'd better lock the
keypad so that he can't inadvertently change operating frequency or
other parameters. Every brand of ham portable does things a bit
differently, and getting him set up again may not be possible if he
totally messes up the radio without causing him to abandon his
post. THe MOtorolla brick otoh is dirt simple, if I'm expecting
him to use more than one channel I can have it programmed in the
radio and tell him which channels he'll need. THis can be
done via a laptop computer, or from a machine at home before
we deploy.
The same is true for amateur performers who don't work with a
system more than maybe once a week. I want to be able to point to
the aux send knobs and tell the lady singer that she adjusts her
mix on aux 6 for example, find the auxes, count down (or up as
appropriate) the requisite number, adjust to taste. IF
count down x many is too difficult dots of colored paper or
tape can help as mentioned above.
AS for not giving them access to things they shouldn't
access, parametric equalizers, limiters, etc. can be in a
locked cabinet. WIth volunteers whose knowledge and
intelligence might be all over the map keep it simple stupid
is always the best policy.
Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com
Michael Dobony
Our housewife volunteers have no problem doing their own mixes on the fly.
None of them have quit due to "getting flustered." The backup singers also
rotate through quite a large pool of volunteers so they are not even on it
on a regular weekly basis. The presets are quite adequate most times. OTOH,
I doubt they would be so easily persuaded if they had to start from scratch
every time.
We are not talking about the main EQ, but channel EQ. You cannot lock them
up in a locked cabinet. I need ready access to these, but the performer
does not. With a digital desk you can lock these out to the performer wile
maintaining access throughout the service. Also, I would think that by now
the op already made their decision and purchase. Any further discussion is
theoretical.