Remastering live band mini disc recordings
James
tidy up. I've taken the songs off minidisc using an optical cable and I've
got hold of MAGIX audio cleaning lab in addition to Wavelab.
However I'm really struggling to get to grips with how to improve the sound
(I'm a drummer with little experience in sound engineering). I wondered if
there was any 'intelligent' software that would improve the sound without me
needing to know lots about equalisation, etc. Failing that, would anyone
care to give any tips? I'd be happy to upload a WAV for someone to have a
listen / comment on possible approaches if there is anyone out there who has
the time
Regards
James
George's Pro Sound Co.
"James" <nor...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:gQf9m.66930$e11....@newsfe14.ams2...
the crap
you are not going to bring up th vocals, or turn down th keys
it is what it is, you need to put the attention where it belongs, on the
capture side of the equation
if you had multi tracked it then remixing and or overdubbing parts would be
possible
georg
James
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
> minidisc is live to two track, there is not much you can do except edit
> out the crap
And that is exactly what I want to do; I'm sure there is a little tweaking
that could be done to improve the occasional clips, etc
George's Pro Sound Co.
want
george
Richard Crowley
> I've got a number of recordings made on mini disc which I want to try
> and tidy up. I've taken the songs off minidisc using an optical cable
> and I've got hold of MAGIX audio cleaning lab in addition to Wavelab.
>
> However I'm really struggling to get to grips with how to improve the
> sound
"Improve" implies that something is wrong that needs changing.
You have not mentioned anything specific that you want to fix?
Start by noting what it is that you don't like about certain sections
of each song. Without that you have only "nonspecific, free-floating
anxiety" which is of no help to you (or us).
> wondered if there was any 'intelligent' software that would improve
> the sound without me needing to know lots about equalisation, etc.
Pretty unlikely, but then we don't know what it is that you think
needs fixing?
> Failing that, would anyone care to give any tips? I'd be happy to
> upload a WAV for someone to have a listen / comment on possible
> approaches if there is anyone out there who has the time
Sure. People here will listen to sample clips posted online somewhere
(NOT HERE!). But we don't know your group or what you want
from your recordings, so you need to provide notes with each clip
that says what you want to change or what you don't like about it.
Laurence Payne
wrote:
Ok, the pedants have moved in, including one who didn't notice you had
Wavelab available :-)
Sure, post a wav. Better on a website, as it'll be big. An MP3 won't
help much.
James
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
> Ok, the pedants have moved in, including one who didn't notice you had
> Wavelab available :-)
>
> Sure, post a wav. Better on a website, as it'll be big. An MP3 won't
> help much.
Thanks Laurence
Part of the problem I guess is that I'm not knowledgeable enough with sound
to know 'what' could be improved, let alone knowing how it can be done.
Would be grateful for any advice as I have a number of recordings that I
made during my gigging career that I'd like to clean up for personal use.
They are all pretty much the same quality.
Have put a file called 'pass the peas' here for anyone who could spare a
listen to give advice:
www.adrive.com
username: ja...@jamesvarty.com
password: Recording1 (needs to be capital R)
Regards
James
Richard Crowley
> Part of the problem I guess is that I'm not knowledgeable enough with
> sound to know 'what' could be improved, let alone knowing how it can be
> done. Would be grateful for any advice as I have a number of recordings
> that I made during my gigging career that I'd like to clean up for
> personal use. They are all pretty much the same quality.
>
> Have put a file called 'pass the peas' here for anyone who could spare a
> listen to give advice:
>
> www.adrive.com
> username: ja...@jamesvarty.com
> password: Recording1 (needs to be capital R)
Some initial observations...
The recording seems to be monaural (L & R channels identical).
They used to do tricks to make mono recordings sound like "stereo"
but none were very successful. Probably better to leave it as-is.
The recording is pretty heavily compressed and/or limited at around
-2dBFS. It is SO uniform that it seems very likely that artificial
compression/limiting was imposed. That is not particularly uncommon
these days with popular music and it may not be an issue here(?)
The POV of the recording seems a bit distant and somewhat "hollow"
and/or "tubby". Sounds like it was recorded with a mic that was
a bit too far away in an acoustic space that was less than flattering.
Or possibly the effect of inadvertently combining stereo mics back
into mono? I would try some gentle to moderate midrange EQ to
attempt to make the tonal balance somewhat more natural sounding.
Dunno there is much more you can do. Also dunno what your
expectations are? Do you know how it was recorded? Are you
extracting from the original discs? If you listen from the MD
player, does it sound different ? (stereo?)
James
"Richard Crowley" wrote
>
> Some initial observations...
>
> The recording seems to be monaural (L & R channels identical).
> They used to do tricks to make mono recordings sound like "stereo"
> but none were very successful. Probably better to leave it as-is.
>
> The recording is pretty heavily compressed and/or limited at around
> -2dBFS. It is SO uniform that it seems very likely that artificial
> compression/limiting was imposed. That is not particularly uncommon
> these days with popular music and it may not be an issue here(?)
>
> The POV of the recording seems a bit distant and somewhat "hollow"
> and/or "tubby". Sounds like it was recorded with a mic that was
> a bit too far away in an acoustic space that was less than flattering.
> Or possibly the effect of inadvertently combining stereo mics back
> into mono? I would try some gentle to moderate midrange EQ to
> attempt to make the tonal balance somewhat more natural sounding.
>
> Dunno there is much more you can do. Also dunno what your
> expectations are? Do you know how it was recorded? Are you
> extracting from the original discs? If you listen from the MD
> player, does it sound different ? (stereo?)
>
Thanks for that. It was recorded using a mini disc player and a (relatively
cheap) Sony stereo mic. The placement was on the stage, near to the front
(so it picked up front of house sound and stage). I have extracted using
optical cable from the original disc
Scott Dorsey
>
>Thanks for that. It was recorded using a mini disc player and a (relatively
>cheap) Sony stereo mic. The placement was on the stage, near to the front
>(so it picked up front of house sound and stage). I have extracted using
>optical cable from the original disc
Something is clipping severely. It could be the microphone, it could be
the preamp, it could be the limiter. Given this, I would not be surprised
if it were the microphone clipping.
A little expansion might help to get a little of the range back, but not
much. Once information is lost, it's lost, and nothing can get it back.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Peter Larsen
> Something is clipping severely. It could be the microphone, it could
> be the preamp, it could be the limiter. Given this, I would not be
> surprised if it were the microphone clipping.
And unclipping doesn't work, at a guess because the atrac encode-decode
messed the peaks up. It could of course also be the pa clipping.
> A little expansion might help to get a little of the range back, but
> not much. Once information is lost, it's lost, and nothing can get
> it back.
If there was also a board tape from the event, then things might get doable.
There are some interesting examples to be found in the Internet Archive.
The best to do with this here audio is to burn to CD as is, at leaast it is
probably honest, ie. it really sounded like that in the room.
> --scott
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
Don Pearce
wrote:
Sounds like automatic level control was used on the recorder. No way
back from that, I'm afraid. Also this was recorded in a very poor room
which has layered its signature all over it.
Call this one a lesson, I think.
d
WillStG
You probably want to upsample the audio to 24 bits, it is unlikely
the mini disk recorded at a higher sample rate than `16 so you need to
import the audio into a session created with the higher bit rate.
That way any editing you do will do less damage to the original
files.
Tweaking your tracks you want to eq a bit, and use a Limiter
plugin. When you Eq, try to bring out instruments buried in the mix,
and cut anything that sounds really really ugly. The Mastering
Limiter will add a polish to the sound and bring levels hotter, but
don't over squash. I try using slow attack and fast release times, to
make things punchier - helpful if your automatic leveler has crushed
things a lot already. I try to get the limiter to make the mix sound
more rhythmic, as opposed to crushing it flat. This is the proverbial
"pumping" of a compressor or limiter, you try to make ot work for you,
not against you.
Good luck.
Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Peter Larsen
> Tweaking your tracks you want to eq a bit, and use a Limiter
> plugin.
It is limited flat already. I'm beginning to think it is the recorder, some
of the time Sony makes good agc's - as in the TC 510 - but they have
forgotten all about it since.
> When you Eq, try to bring out instruments buried in the mix,
> and cut anything that sounds really really ugly.
The ensemble sound and mix is not bad, it is just that it is recorded with a
""stereo mic"" having two (omni?) capsules that are 2 inches apart placed
20+ feet from the stage.
> The Mastering
> Limiter will add a polish to the sound and bring levels hotter, but
> don't over squash. I try using slow attack and fast release times, to
> make things punchier - helpful if your automatic leveler has crushed
> things a lot already. I try to get the limiter to make the mix sound
> more rhythmic, as opposed to crushing it flat. This is the proverbial
> "pumping" of a compressor or limiter, you try to make ot work for you,
> not against you.
It's contra to what I like to do, guess I need to try that some day, it
probably is the proper tool some of the time. Breaking rules is not always
bad, be it on stage or in mixing.
> Good luck.
Will, I tried a bit of "doing things" prior to posting my "do nothing"
suggestion, it is as tightly clipped as the lawn on Forest Dreams Cementary
already. There is no bessermachen that really bessers with this audio, leave
be and enjoy the music. Comparing to my most alternative vinyl (Velvet
Underground taped with early model compact cassette) it is ultra-fi.
> Will Miho
> NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
James
to help me out, its much appreciated.
If only I'd given more thought to listening back to these recordings when I
first recorded them!
WillStG
> WillStG wrote:
> > The Mastering
> > Limiter will add a polish to the sound and bring levels hotter, but
> > don't over squash. I try using slow attack and fast release times, to
> > make things punchier - helpful if your automatic leveler has crushed
> > things a lot already. I try to get the limiter to make the mix sound
> > more rhythmic, as opposed to crushing it flat. This is the proverbial
> > "pumping" of a compressor or limiter, you try to make ot work for you,
> > not against you.
>
> It's contra to what I like to do, guess I need to try that some day, it
> probably is the proper tool some of the time. Breaking rules is not always
> bad, be it on stage or in mixing.
It's just a different rule.
When I was a Tape Op, I learned from Rock and Roll Engineers for
whom the concept of "Making it pump" was the norm. Aerosmith even
named an album "Pump". A classical music engineer on the other hand
will have a damn hard time getting drums to sound like Metallica with
a fast attack slow release setting on a transparent limiter. Even
some live sound guys I know do.
> Will, I tried a bit of "doing things" prior to posting my "do nothing"
> suggestion, it is as tightly clipped as the lawn on Forest Dreams Cementary
> already. There is no bessermachen that really bessers with this audio, leave
> be and enjoy the music. Comparing to my most alternative vinyl (Velvet
> Underground taped with early model compact cassette) it is ultra-fi.
>
Well I was trying to outline for a newbie what to listen for when
he tries to work on mastering his cuts. And because some limiters are
pretty frequency dependent, you can sometime reintroduce a rhythmic
pulse to stuff that's been pretty flattened.
But I'll take your word for it... <g>
Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away''' Tom Waits
Peter Larsen
>> It's contra to what I like to do, guess I need to try that some day,
>> it probably is the proper tool some of the time. Breaking rules is
>> not always bad, be it on stage or in mixing.
> It's just a different rule.
And one I will cherish and keep in mind in case that young rap kid I met at
a summer course wants some multitrack recording or mixing.
Not that there is a lot of chance of me doing anything large, three
consecutive slipped disks in the lower back .... :-( .... one of those
putting pressure on the ischias nerve bundle. Mostly no pain - just a left
leg that is partially off-line, but no more lifting no nutting unless
supported by a large bundle of helium balloons ....
> Well I was trying to outline for a newbie what to listen for when
> he tries to work on mastering his cuts. And because some limiters are
> pretty frequency dependent, you can sometime reintroduce a rhythmic
> pulse to stuff that's been pretty flattened.
Appreciated.
> Will Miho
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
Scott Dorsey
And THAT is the number one important thing to learn, which it sounds like
you have....
Philippe Lemaire
As far as I can see both channels are exactly identical...
Philippe
Nomen Nescio
>>listen / comment on possible approaches if there is anyone out there who has
>>the time
Jim, I think a previous poster once said a long time ago, (I think it's in the FAQ):)
"You can not get blood from a turnip" never forget that. Good luck with your
transferring of recordings.
Jacqueline