Fundy juries
Dave Jones
witholding medication from a child on religious grounds, causing
his death. It seems to be an epidemic. This time the charge is manslaughter,
not simple child endangerment. I think the newsperson said "Christian
Science", but I'm not sure.
Anyway, they are trying to impanel the jury, and one of the attorneys
asks about the prospective juror's religious beliefs and the other
says, "Whoa! Wait a minute!" and that's just what they are doing
while the judge thinks it over.
The news didn't say, but I am assuming it was the prosecutor who
was asking because he was afraid of jury-nullification of the law.
You know, the juror says, well yeah, it's against the law to withhold
vital medical attention from a child, but according to my religion,
it should not be, so, "Not guilty!"
It looks clear-cut to me. The prosecutor should be allowed to question
the jurors and dismiss those who, because of religion or any other
reason would refuse to uphold the law. "Freedom of religion" does not
mean freedom to rewrite the law of the land, any more than it means
freedom to abuse your children. We will see what happens.
Erann Gat
> It looks clear-cut to me. The prosecutor should be allowed to question
> the jurors and dismiss those who, because of religion or any other
> reason would refuse to uphold the law. "Freedom of religion" does not
> mean freedom to rewrite the law of the land, any more than it means
> freedom to abuse your children.
Actually, that is exactly what it means. It used to be the law of the land
that students had to pray in the public schools. This law was found to be
in conflict with the freedom of religion guaranteed in the first amendment
and that law is no longer upheld.
Now, I will grant you that the case of Christian Scientists and others
letting their children die of treatable diseases is very different from
forced prayer in the schools. But to call it "the freedom to abuse your
children" is not being quite fair. These people did not withold medical
treatment from their children out of a desire to see them suffer and die.
They did it because they loved their children and believed in their heart
of hearts that to put their fate in the hands of God was the best thing
they could do for them.
Now, you may be horrified at this attitude. There are those who are
equally horrified by people who favor the ban on prayer in the schools.
There are people far less radical than Christian Scientists who believe
that prayer is at least as important for one's overall well being as
medical care. There are people who are as shocked that children are
being denied spiritual care as you are that children are being denied
medical care. Should your prejudices carry more weight than theirs?
What people have to face up to is that freedom has a price. The price
is that sometimes you have to let people do things that shock and
horrify you. Sometimes you even have to let people die in order to
preserve freedom. (Though I have no data, I stringly suspect that the
freedom to hang glide has claimed more lives than the Christian Scientists.)
Perhaps when enough children have died, people will start to think twice
about becoming (or remaining) Christian Scientists.
Erann Gat
g...@ai.jpl.nasa.gov
These opinions are my own, but everyone is welcome to as many as they want.
David Hatcher
> Sometimes you even have to let people die in order to
>preserve freedom.
Sad, but true!
> (Though I have no data, I stringly suspect that the
>freedom to hang glide has claimed more lives than the Christian Scientists.)
I know that automobile accidents have.
David Hatcher
Jeffrey Schavland
>
>Medical care is a human right.
>
Since when is medical care a human right? I always thought that people
have (in theory) the "right" to do anything they want as long as it doesn't
infringe upon the "rights" of others. Saying that medical care is a human
right is just as wrong as saying that employment or silly putty is a
human right.
--
Jeffrey A. Schavland | schv...@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois | schv...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
at Urbana-Champaign | j-sch...@uiuc.edu
"If Communism goes, I've still got the U.S. House of Representatives."
-Robert Novak
Brad Pierce
>What people have to face up to is that freedom has a price. The price
>is that sometimes you have to let people do things that shock and
>horrify you. Sometimes you even have to let people die in order to
>preserve freedom.
This price of freedom should not be paid by children. There are people
that beat their children because they believe that "spare the rod
spoil the child". Should society allow this behavior in the name of
the parents' freedom?
Medical care is a human right.
Whoever deprives another of a human right, whether the denier is a
government or parent, is not exercising freedom, but abusing power.
It is gross injustice to treat another human as property, even if
you are that person's parent.
-- Brad
Ronald BODKIN
transfusion]
>Now, you may be horrified at this attitude...
>What people have to face up to is that freedom has a price. The price
>is that sometimes you have to let people do things that shock and
>horrify you. Sometimes you even have to let people die in order to
>preserve freedom. (Though I have no data, I stringly suspect that the
>freedom to hang glide has claimed more lives than the Christian Scientists.)
advocating forcing an adult C.S. to receive a blood transfusion -- this is
their unalienable right. BUT, the child is a separate human being, and
not a property of their guardian(s) (i.e. parent(s)), and just as a parent
who INSISTED their child hang glide would indeed be abusing the child,
the same holds here. It is also not acceptable for a parent to insist
on their child taking a 40 day hunger strike, although it is perfectly
legitimate for the parent to do so themself. When a parent is allowed
to enforce irrational and extremely damaging prejudices on their child,
this departs from the area of PERSONAL liberty.
Ron
Jeff Schavland
>In article <1990Apr21....@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> schv...@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey Schavland) writes:
>|In article <34...@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> pie...@cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:
>|>
>|>Medical care is a human right.
>|>
>|Since when is medical care a human right? I always thought that people
>|have (in theory) the "right" to do anything they want as long as it doesn't
>|infringe upon the "rights" of others. Saying that medical care is a human
>|right is just as wrong as saying that employment or silly putty is a
>|human right.
>
> for sure that silly putty is a human right.
>
> It puzzles me why anyone would attack the concept
> of "Medical care is a human right". Somehow the
> idea of medical care infringing on the rights of
> others is laughable.
Medical care can very easily infringe on the rights of others. If you
tax me to pay for your "right" of medical care, then it becomes my business.
If you force me as a, let's say parent who is a Christian Scientist, to
provide medical care to my children, you have certianly "infringed" on
my rights.
--
Jeffrey A. Schavland
schv...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu | Illini Space Development Society
schv...@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu | NSS Chapter at the University of Illinois
j-sch...@uiuc.edu | 104 Transportation Building
"Mr. Hiss represents the concealed enemy against which we are all fighting, and
I am fighting. I have testified against him with remorse and pity, but in a
moment of history in which this Nation now stands, so help me God, I could not
do otherwise."
-Whittaker Chambers, testifying before HUAC, 25 August 1948
Ronald BODKIN
> It puzzles me why anyone would attack the concept
> of "Medical care is a human right". Somehow the
> idea of medical care infringing on the rights of
> others is laughable.
care -- but the right to medical care as in right to force others to
pay/give this care is a different question. THIS would infringe on
those paying/being forced to provide said care.
Ron
Bruce Becker
|>
|>Medical care is a human right.
|>
|Since when is medical care a human right? I always thought that people
|have (in theory) the "right" to do anything they want as long as it doesn't
|infringe upon the "rights" of others. Saying that medical care is a human
|right is just as wrong as saying that employment or silly putty is a
|human right.
I'm not so sure about employment, but I know
for sure that silly putty is a human right.
It puzzles me why anyone would attack the concept
of "Medical care is a human right". Somehow the
idea of medical care infringing on the rights of
others is laughable.
--
,u, Bruce Becker Toronto, Ontario
a /i/ Internet: b...@becker.UUCP, br...@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
`\o\-e UUCP: ...!uunet!mnetor!becker!bdb
_< /_ "I still have my phil-os-o-phy" - Meredith Monk
Barry Shein
From: schv...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Jeff Schavland )
>Medical care can very easily infringe on the rights of others. If you
>tax me to pay for your "right" of medical care, then it becomes my business.
But presumably you enjoy the same right, so you're taxing each other.
Change the topic, if you tax me to pay for your "right" of free
speech, then it becomes my business. Just as only one of us might
become sick, only one of us might be demanding protection of our free
speech.
Is the complaint about medical care, or taxes in general? Your
statement seems to be far too broad a sweep to figure this out.
>If you force me as a, let's say parent who is a Christian Scientist, to
>provide medical care to my children, you have certianly "infringed" on
>my rights.
That's been argued in the courts over a thousand issues, if you choose
to not partake, voluntarily (due to religious or personal preference),
of something which is freely available to you, that's your business.
But it doesn't, a priori, excuse you from all taxes relating to that.
It was your choice not to walk in the park or whatever, no matter how
good or solid the reason (you're deathly allergic to grass, etc.)
Or is all this only true in some mythical world which exists only in
your head?
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | {xylogics,uunet}!world!bzs | b...@world.std.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
James Seidman
>From: schv...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Jeff Schavland )
>>Medical care can very easily infringe on the rights of others. If you
>>tax me to pay for your "right" of medical care, then it becomes my business.
>
>But presumably you enjoy the same right, so you're taxing each other.
Just out of curiosity, are you really *that* naive? Do you really think
that in a system of socialized medicine, it isn't the rich subsidizing the
poor? If so I recommend you take a class in economics.
--
Jim Seidman, Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711. (714) 621-8000 x2026
"All of us who attempt to heal the wounds of others will ourselves be wounded;
it is, after all, inherent in the relationship."
- From "Healing the Wounds" by David Hilfiker, M.D.
Bradley L. Richards
>letting their children die of treatable diseases is very different from
>forced prayer in the schools.
>
>equally horrified by people who favor the ban on prayer in the schools.
>There are people far less radical than Christian Scientists who believe
>that prayer is at least as important for one's overall well being as
>medical care. There are people who are as shocked that children are
>being denied spiritual care as you are that children are being denied
>medical care. Should your prejudices carry more weight than theirs?
>
You're right--these are *very* different issues. The ban on prayer in
public schools is a ban on *organized* prayer. Those people who believe
prayer is important are free to pray on their own. And if some children
of non-Christians grow up and convert to Christianity, that change of belief
is just fine. But denying medical care to a child is a little more
dramatic--the child never gets that second chance.
It's a tough question: how much do we allow the government into our family
lives. I know someone who spanked her child in public and some well-meaning
nitwit reported her to the police for child abuse. The cops came and put
the whole family through a nightmare while they did a home study. Where
do we draw the line?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bradley L. Richards bra...@cs.utexas.edu
Department of Computer Science uucp: cs.utexas.edu!bradley :-)
Univ of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 AFIT/CISP, WPAFB, OH 45433
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gunther Wil Anderson
>I'm not a lawyer or anything, but IMHO medical care and employment are
>covered under "pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration of Independence.
>
Pursuit of Happiness is a neat concept, but is really only useful when
you're trying to rally the locals. To use it as a legal principle is
to invite all manner of difficulties. If abusing women gratifies me
tremendously, am I guaranteed the same protection under the law? If
destruction of my neighbors properts eases my tension, am I not
culpable? Employment and medical care are not rights, per se. They
are considered to be basic human necessities, but to declare them as
rights places the government in the position of providing it.
Unemployment insurance is such a right. (Before I am called a
nincompoop, other rights such as free speech are guaranteed simply not
to be infringed, since they cannot be provided).
(Also, the Declaration of Independence was, as far as our legal system
is considered, a non-binding resolution. The niceties of its
composition, if they exist at all in out government now, are there by
coincidence -- not by plan.)
>I think your definition of "right" is a little off. We have the right to
>free speech. We have the right to keep and bear arms. It is possible to
>be entitled to certain things that we call rights. And as far as I'm
>concerned, medical care falls under the heading, "You have the right
>not to be killed." (see the Clash, not the Constitution)
>
(But do I have the right to die?)
Back to the original question (if I've followed the thread properly),
yes, you do have the right to live, in general, but the trick is that
you have the right to live (again, in general) as you please. (Yes,
this right has been continuously and deeply infringed, but that's not
the topic here.) If I should happen to cut my leg off with a
chainsaw, and I decide it looks neat, I am at liberty not to seek
medical care. In order for that care to be forcedon me, I must be
declared incompetent first. Even though medical care is available,
and necessary to my future well being, I must seek it out.
The question here is whether the government is required to
preserve the life of someone until they are old enough to make the
determination to seek or not themselves. As always, this discussion
boils down to personal morality and religion. There is no universal
truth here, and all the government can do is take a stand, and hope it
pans out. In this case, they've decided that you must reach your
majority before you can decide to not seek care. Your parents are not
at liberty to make that determination for you.
>| Bryan Whitehead | The currents rage so deep inside us |
>| br...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu | This is the age of Video Violence |
>| br...@next.cc.ukans.edu | No age of reason landing upon us |
>| I never check mail on my | This is the age of Video Violence |
>| other accounts! | - Lou Reed |
> The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye - Prof. Brian O'Blivion
Gunther W. Anderson
gun...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
... crabcake...
... jhuvms...
... jhuvm...
br...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> In article <34...@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> pie...@cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:
>>
>>Medical care is a human right.
>>
> Since when is medical care a human right? I always thought that people
> have (in theory) the "right" to do anything they want as long as it doesn't
> infringe upon the "rights" of others. Saying that medical care is a human
> right is just as wrong as saying that employment or silly putty is a
> human right.
Weelllllll....
I'm not a lawyer or anything, but IMHO medical care and employment are
covered under "pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration of Independence.
Silly Putty may be another matter, however.
I think your definition of "right" is a little off. We have the right to
free speech. We have the right to keep and bear arms. It is possible to
be entitled to certain things that we call rights. And as far as I'm
concerned, medical care falls under the heading, "You have the right
not to be killed." (see the Clash, not the Constitution)
- Bryan
br...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> In article <82...@becker.UUCP> b...@becker.UUCP (Bruce Becker) writes:
> If you force me as a, let's say parent who is a Christian Scientist, to
> provide medical care to my children, you have certianly "infringed" on
> my rights.
You're confusing "right" and "obligation."
You have the right to own a gun. However, except for one or two isolated
rural communitites, nowhere in the U.S. actually requires you to possess
a firearm (in fact, most places would just as soon you didn't). Medical
care is the same way.
I guess the real fundamental issue here is that it's stupid for human
beings to suffer and die merely because they can't afford the medical
attention available to their wealthy counterparts. If you're arguing that
this isn't guaranteed by the Constitution, I hate to agree with you but
I do. Nonetheless, that's not necessarily the way it should be.
David Heisterberg
> I'm not a lawyer or anything, but IMHO medical care and employment are
> covered under "pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration of Independence.
Note that it's pursuit, not attainment. Also, the DofI doesn't have any
legal significance, except maybe to clarify original intent.
And as far as I'm
> concerned, medical care falls under the heading, "You have the right
> not to be killed."
Isn't that stretching it? I would like to agree with you, I mean, it
sounds nice and all, but just because people "ought" to have something
doesn't mean we have the capability of providing it. If a meteor falls
on your head and kills you, there's nothing anyone can do about it. And
if it falls on your head and turns you into a vegetable, requiring
incredibly expensive treatment just to keep you alive, well, to be
honest, I'd rather keep my money than have the government force me to
give it up for your sake. In fact, unless I'm the one who bounced the
rock off your noggin, I don't think anyone has the right to make me
fork over my money for your well being. However, I might just do it
anyway. Remember, you can't fool economics: the government's money is
MY money, and YOUR money, and HIS money, and HER money, etc.
--
David J. Heisterberg d...@osc.edu And you all know
The Ohio Supercomputer Center d...@ohstpy.bitnet security Is mortals'
Columbus, Ohio ohstpy::djh chiefest enemy.
James Seidman
>I'm not a lawyer or anything, but IMHO medical care and employment are
>covered under "pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration of Independence.
Well, IMHO this line of thinking is a very dangerous one. Does that mean
that unemployment (and accompanying welfare) is covered under the "pursuit
of happiness" clause? How about those people who want to use XTC under that
clause? Maybe medical care should be covered under the "life" part of it,
but I think that the "pursuit of happiness" is so vague as to serve no
function other than giving something for lawyers to invoke when they're
desparate.
--
Jim Seidman, Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711. (714) 621-8000 x2026
The Doctor: It was a terrible babble of inhuman voices.
Prof. Chronotis: Oh, that was just the undergraduates!
- Doctor Who, "Shada"
Doug Linder
> However, Doug Linder seems to have returned, and he suggested this
> experiment: ^ I wasn't aware that I had left
>> OK, say we take 100 kids and put them in a standard hospital where they
>>recieve whatever medical care trained doctors feel necessary. then we
>>take 100 other kids as a control group (poor things) and put them in an
>>ideantical hospital in every way except instead of doctors, priests pray
>>over them for the same amount of time. [ And legislate whichever works
>> best. - kwh ]
>
> Firstly, if I remember my statistics correctly, the effectiveness rate for
> `modern medicine' is about 80%, and the effectiveness rate for `doing
> nothing at all' is about 60%. I don't know of any data on prayers. (If
> these statistics are old or mangled by senility, corrections are welcome.)
You don't have any data on prayers because "doing nothing" == "praying"
> But more importantly, I find Doug's article horrifying.
> What scares me about him is that, though he clearly believes the control
> group is going to have more children die, Doug is willing to sacrifice them
> to prove his point -- apparently, those children who die are insignificant
> when it comes to getting his own opinions legislated.
[ more stuff about what a child-killing ogre I am ]
Oh, please, Darren, I thought even you were smarter than this. I almost
didn't even reply to your message because I find it very hard to belive that
anyone would take your babble about me callously killing children seriously.
However, there *are* some thiests about, so I'd better make myself very clear.
I'll try to use small words. Perhaps it is my fault after all for not being
clear in the first place, I thought everyone would understand - that's what I
get for overestimating the brains of fundies. Here we go:
I wasn't *serious*, Darren. It was a *hypothetical* situation, intended to
desmonstrate through analogy what I thought about the effectiveness of prayer
as a substitute for medical care - i.e; not much. If anyone ever tried to
preform this experiment, I'd be first in line trying to stop them. As far as
I'm concerned, religious freedom does not extend to killing children. I never
thought I'd find myself using an argument from the pro-lifers, but did anyone
ever ask the children if they wanted to live? Maybe, but then again the kids
are probably so programmed that they'd opt for prayer too.
Please don't think that this kind of thinly veiled ad hominem rhetoric will
affect me in any way. I highly doubt that anyone except you honestly thought
that I was in favor of sacrificing children.
> (The rest of Doug's article was the standard Christianity bashing that he
> has posted nonstop since he first showed up on the net, and since he said
> nothing new there's no point in replying to it.)
Oh, don't give me this patronizing BS. Do you really think the content of
*your* posts has changed? Please, be serious. We both write and respond to
each issue as it comes up from our own perspective. Don't tell me you haven't
indulged in any "bashing" yourself. Implying that you are somehow better than
I when it comes to posting is senseless. You certainly aren't any better at
writing or debate.
--
Douglas D. Linder lin...@merrimack.edu
Merrimack College, N. Andover, MA {uunet,wang,ulowell}!samsung!hubdub!linderd
v^v^v Atheism: Living life on your own two feet - not on your knees! v^v^v^
"By the cold and religious we were taken in hand -
shown how to feel good; and told to feel bad."
- Roger Waters, from The Final Cut (Pink Floyd)
Doug Linder
> Now, you may be horrified at this attitude. There are those who are
> equally horrified by people who favor the ban on prayer in the schools.
> There are people far less radical than Christian Scientists who believe
> that prayer is at least as important for one's overall well being as
> medical care. There are people who are as shocked that children are
> being denied spiritual care as you are that children are being denied
> medical care. Should your prejudices carry more weight than theirs?
Erann, I read an understood your posting, and I agree with you that there are
some costs of freedom which we might not always like. However, in this case I
really do think my opinions (not prejudices) do in fact carry more weight. I
suggest that we do this logically. Suppose we agree that what everyone wnats
is for children to be healthy and not die. OK, say we take 100 kids and put
them in a standard hospital where they recieve whatever medical care trained
doctors feel necessary. then we take 100 other kids as a control group (poor
things) and put them in an ideantical hospital in every way except instead of
doctors, priests pray over them for the same amount of time. In addition,
families and even churches around the country are encouraged to pray that these
kids get well. At the end, why don't we make the law based on a logical
experiment: whichever group had more surviving kids? I think we all know which
group that would be.
Actually, I wonder why ANY christians send their kids to hospitals at all.
It would seem that if, as a chraistain, a person's faith were TRULY strong,
then they would think they way the Christin Scientists (oxymoron) do: is "god"
is almighty (and we believe he is) then he will heal the kid if he wants, and
let the kid die if that's what he desires.
So, how about it? Hey, Charley Wingate, do you send your kids to the doctor
when they are sick? How strong is YOUR faith? Rodney Raymond Morrison?
What's that? You DO send your kids to the doctor? What's the matter, isn't
your faith strong enough? You DO think god is omnipotent, don't you?
> Perhaps when enough children have died, people will start to think twice
> about becoming (or remaining) Christian Scientists.
Feh! You'd think that by now enough PEOPLE have died, period, as a result of
xtainity that people would have to be PAID to profess that belief in the
death-cult in ANY sect.
--
Douglas D. Linder lin...@merrimack.edu
Merrimack College, N. Andover, MA {uunet,wang,ulowell}!samsung!hubdub!linderd
v^v^v Atheism: Living life on your own two feet - not on your knees! v^v^v^
"Though I drew this conclusion, now it draws me."
- Friedrich Nietzsche, from Thus Spake Zarathustra
btif...@pbs.uucp
Date: 21 Apr 90 21:55:27 GMT
>This price of freedom should not be paid by children. There are people
>that beat their children because they believe that "spare the rod
>spoil the child". Should society allow this behavior in the name of
>the parents' freedom?
"Society" has no business interfering in the matter, provided we are
talking about loving, God-ordained discipline designed to train up a child in
the way that he should go, so that when he is old he will not depart from it.
Withholding the rod of discipline because of the current society's warped
views regarding the supposed inherent goodness of man is possibly the worst
type of child abuse, and it's pretty clear from even a cursory look at the
ills of our present society what a lack of discipline leads to. Foolishness
is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod will drive it far from him. The
irksome thing is that most people apparently can see no difference between
loving correction using "the rod" (whatever non-injuring instrument that might
be), and the perverted abusive beating, scalding, whipping, punching, or
whatever else it is that is done to children [or wives, for that matter] by
sick people. In our zeal to correct such abuse we must not deny parents
their God-ordained right to function as God's representatives in instructing
and training their children in the right way, which will from time to time
involve physical discipline.
>Medical care is a human right.
The opportunity to care for oneself medically or to seek medical care
would fit the Founding Fathers' idea of a "right". They would not have said
you had a right to require me to provide it. Of course, if you were in need
and I could assist and refused to, I'd be wrong. Nevertheless, it is worse
to extort money or other services from me to pay for your medical care
involuntarily.
>Whoever deprives another of a human right, whether the denier is a
>government or parent, is not exercising freedom, but abusing power.
What is a "human right"? This must be answered before your assertion
can be evaluated. The Founding Fathers recognized man as an eternal being
whose rights are endowed by his Creator, and that temporal governments were
obligated to uphold those eternal rights. If you mean that any authority
which seeks to abridge such God-given rights is abusing power, you are right.
Such is the case with our present government. If there is no God, and man is
not eternal, we have no rights, only revokable privileges granted by the state,
which becomes god. That, in fact, is the situation in this country now (not
that there is no God, but that we have denied His existence and replaced Him
with ourselves), and our rights are in the gravest peril. We have lost most
of what was won in the War for Independence, and the rate of decline is
increasing.
"For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or
give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish
heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged
the glory of the incorruptible [immortal] God for an image in the form of
corruptible [mortal] man ... therefore God gave them over to the lusts of
their hearts ... for they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and
worshiped and served the creature [i.e., themselves] rather than the
Creator ..." -- Romans 1:21-25
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Psalm 14:1
>It is gross injustice to treat another human as property, even if
>you are that person's parent.
"Behold, children are a GIFT [heritage] of the Lord; the fruit of
the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the
children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of
them ..." Psalm 127:3-5. Children belong to God and are lent to parents,
thus they belong to the parents. They do NOT belong to the state, contrary
to the general belief going around these days. They also do not merely
belong to themselves (and neither do you). God has designated the FAMILY
as the training ground for children; not the school (man's invention), not
the peer group, not the government. Fathers are charged with the responsibility
of bringing up their children in the knowledge and admonition of the Lord.
"There never was a society throughout all of history....without a
family as the central unit for launching the education of children,
the character formation, and as the moral agent of society."
-- Amitai Etzioni
"The group consisting of mother, father, and child (is) the main
educational agency of mankind."
-- Martin Luther King
=============================================================
From: schv...@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey Schavland)
Date: 21 Apr 90 22:31:30 GMT
>Since when is medical care a human right? I always thought that people
>have (in theory) the "right" to do anything they want as long as it doesn't
>infringe upon the "rights" of others. Saying that medical care is a human
>right is just as wrong as saying that employment or silly putty is a
>human right.
That is the present day view: I have a right to do whatever I want
as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else (or infringe on their rights, which
is construed to be their "right to do whatever they want"). Aside from the
fact that it never did, does not now, and never will work, it is far, far
removed from the original understanding of rights upon which this nation was
founded. You do NOT have a right to do whatever you want. You are temporarily
allowed to get away with it, it is true, but don't confuse mercy with a right.
The original understanding of rights was that they come from God, and we are
responsible to God. (Remove God, and of course, I have just as much "right"
to do anything I want as anybody; in fact, without God, who are you to tell me
I can't do something which hurts you if it pleases me and I'm big enough to
get away with it? If there is no God, there are no rights, just the rule
of the strongest -- THINK ABOUT IT before you blast me!) Without belief in
God (the true God, not the New Age concept), there can be no lasting virtue in
the people, and the nation cannot long endure. This will become more evident
in the near future.
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it
connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil
government with the principles of Christianity, from the day of
the Declaration ... They (the American people) were bound by
the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel,
which they nearly all acknowledged as the rules of their
conduct."
-- John Quincy Adams, 1821
"[In American democracy, rights] were granted on the ground that
man is God's creature. That is, freedom was given to the
individual conditionally, in the assumption of his constant
religious responsibility."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
"It is indeed a truth, which all the great apostles of freedom
outside the nationalistic school have never tired of emphasizing,
that freedom has never worked without deeply ingrained moral beliefs
and that coercion can be reduced to a minimum only where individuals
can be expected as a rule to conform voluntarily to certain
principles."
-- Friedrich Hayek
"Men are qualified for civil liberty, in exact proportion to their
disposition to put moral chains upon their appetites; in proportion
as their love of justice is above their rapacity; in proportion as
their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their varity
and presumption; in proportion as they are more disposed to listen
to the counsel of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery
of knaves."
-- Edmund Burke, in "Letter to a Member of the National Assembly"
"To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or
happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical
idea."
-- James Madison
(in debates during the Virginia ratifying convention, June 20, 1788)
"Republican institutions in the hands of a virtuous and God-fearing
nation are the very best in the world, but in the hands of a corrupt
and irreligious people they are the very worst, and the most
effective weapons of destruction. An indignant people may rise in
rebellion against a cruel tyrant: but who will rise against the
tyranny of the people in possession of the ballot-box and the whole
machinery of government? Here lies our great danger, and it is
increasing every year.
"Destroy our churches, close our Sunday-schools, abolish the Lord's
Day, and our Republic would become an empty shell, and our people
would tend to heathenism and barbarism. Christianity is the most
powerful factor in our society and the pillar of our institutions."
-- Philip Shaff, 1889
==============================================================
From: bra...@cs.utexas.edu (Bradley L. Richards)
Date: 23 Apr 90 05:09:53 GMT
>You're right--these are *very* different issues. The ban on prayer in
>public schools is a ban on *organized* prayer. Those people who believe
>prayer is important are free to pray on their own. And if some children
>of non-Christians grow up and convert to Christianity, that change of belief
>is just fine. But denying medical care to a child is a little more
>dramatic--the child never gets that second chance.
There wouldn't be such a flap over school prayer if only offically
organized prayer were being repressed. The fact is, children and students
(and teachers) in public schools are being harassed and persecuted by the
authorities for such activities as: being seen with a Bible; wearing T-shirts
that say anything perceived as "Christian"; being caught praying silently on
their own; meeting separately to pray and/or study the Bible, etc. Some
legal cases have even involved school officials firing Christian teachers or
harassing Christian students for meeting together off school property, after
school hours, in their own homes, on their own time!!!!! It is permissable
to teach transcendental meditation or promote a homosexual lifestyle, but
the Jewish/Christian God is illegal.
"The government is God's servant. That means that AS MEN all
government officials stand on an equal footing with their
subordinates; have no claim to superiority in any sense whatever ...
For exactly the same reason the Calvinist gives preference to a
republican form of government over any other type. In no other form
of government does the sovereignty of God, the derivative character
of government powers and the equality of men as men, find a clearer
and more eloquent expression."
-- J. C. Monsma in "What Calvinism Has Done For America"
"Indeed the concern over the Christian status of the nation is
well founded."
-- Supreme Court in 1791, upholding the right of five ratifying states to
protest the omission of a direct mention of God in the new Constitution.
"Christianity is part of our common law ... its divine origin
and truth are admitted and therefore it is not to be maliciously
and openly reviled and blasphemed against, to the annoyance of
believers or the injury of the public."
-- Supreme Court Court in 1844, Vidol vs. Girard
"Probably at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and
of the First Amendment to it ... the general, if not the
universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to
receive encouragement by the state so far as was not
incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the
freedom of religious worship. Any attempt to level all
religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all
in utter indifference would have created universal
disapprobation, if not universal indignation."
-- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, 1851
"Our law and our institutions must be necessarily based upon and
embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is
impossible that it should be otherwise, and in this sense and to
the extent that our civilization and our institutions are
emphatically Christian ... No purpose of action against
religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national,
because this is a religious people. This is historically true.
From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there
is a single voice making this affirmation .. We find everywhere
a clear recognition of the same truth ... this is a Christian
nation."
-- Supreme Court in 1892, Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S.
"We are a Christian people, according to our motto. The right
of religious freedom, demands acknowledgment, with reverence,
and duty of obedience to the will of God."
-- Supreme Court, 1952, Zorack vs. Clauson
"We have already seen that the First Amendment to the Constitution
originally applied only to the Federal Government. Thus contrary to
the popular notion, the First Amendment does not in principle set
forth the separation of 'Church and State', as it is called: the
more appropriate terms being 'religion' (the term used in the
Amendment) and 'government' (of which, in the federal area, Congress
is a branch). The First Amendment but draws a line beyond which the
powers of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT cannot extend. But on the other
side of that line, the powers of the individual States are left
unimpaired; as is made plain by the Tenth Amendment. The Bill of
Rights begins, 'Congress shall not,' and ends with 'reserved to the
States respectively.'"
-- James Bulman in "It Is Their Right"
"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the God of mankind is the
reason and the end of government ... therefore government
itself is a venerable ordinance of God."
-- The Great Law of Pennsylvania, April 26, 1685
"Be it therefore enacted ... that no person or persons
whatsoever within this province ... professing to believe in
Jesus Christ ... shall henceforth be any ways troubled,
molested (or disapproved of) ... in respect to his or her
religion nor in the free exercise thereof ..."
-- Maryland Toleration Act, April 21, 1649
"The rights of the colonists as Christians ... may be best
understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of
the Great Lawgiver and Head of the Christian church, which are
to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New
Testament."
-- Samuel Adams, 1772
"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought
to be obedient. He reigns in heaven, and from the rising of the
sun to the setting of the sun let His kingdom come."
-- Samuel Adams at the signing of the Declaration of Independence
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political
prosperity, religion and morality are indespensable supports.
In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who
should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness,
these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere
politician, equally with pious man, ought to respect and cherish
them. A volume could not trace all the connections with private
and public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the
security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of
religious obligation desert the oathes, which are the
instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us
with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be
maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the
influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure,
reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national
morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
-- George Washington announcing his farewell from public life
on September 17, 1796
"It is impossible to govern rightly without God and the Bible."
-- George Washington
"All human laws which contradict His laws, we are bound in
conscience to disobey."
-- George Mason, 1789
"By our form of government, the Christian religion is the
established religion."
-- Supreme Court of Maryland, 1799
"...a government and a country were to commence with the very
first foundations laid under the divine light of the Christian
religion. Let us not forget the religious character of our
nation."
-- Daniel Webster, 1820
"The Bible is the rock on which our republic rests."
-- President Andrew Jackson, 1845
"I am much afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of
hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy
Scriptures, and engraving them in the hearts of youth. I advise
no one to place his child where the Scriptures do not reign
paramount."
-- Martin Luther
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have
removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the
people that their liberties are the gift of God?"
-- Thomas Jefferson
"[The] Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which
[the clergy] have enveloped it, is a religion of all others most
friendly to liberty, science and the freest expressions of the
human mind."
-- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Moses Robinson, March 23, 1801
"The statist notion that governmental power should supersede
parental authority in all cases because some parents abuse and
neglect children is repugnant to American tradition."
-- Supreme Court of the United States
"If man is not governed by God, then he must be governed by
tyrants."
-- William Penn
"Men and nations will change their principles to perpetuate
their existence, but God is the same yesterday, today, and
forever."
-- Star R. Scott
"Those who are not willing to fight for freedom by day are
doomed to fight tyranny by night."
"If we really value pluralism, we must recognize that it is not
appropriate in a free society for the government to use
subsidies to impose its social philosophy upon educational
institutions. That is tyranny, and must be recognized and
proclaimed as such. True, a free society cannot long endure
without a consensus of values -- but that consensus must be
genuine and vital, not a by-product of government manipulation
... There is, in other words, a direct relationship between the
abdication of moral and intellectual authority by many educators
and the persistent erosion of our freedoms -- especially our
economic freedoms."
__ Dr. John A. Howard, recently retired President of Rockford
College in Illinois, commenting on the LACK of a wall between
government and education in America today.
=============================================================================
=============================================================================
Sobering quote from Ohio School Guide Compulsory Education Law:
"The natural rights and parents to custody and control of their
children are subordinate to the power of the state to provide
for the education of children. Laws providing for the education
of children are for the protection of the state itself."
So God's laws are subordinate to the state, and the state is now God, and
individual rights are subordinate to the state (which means they are no longer
rights, merely revokable privileges), a 180-degree turnaround from the views
of the Founding Fathers. The ultimate obective is the welfare of the state.
"If we can separate a people from their history, they will be
easily persuaded." -- Karl Marx
>It's a tough question: how much do we allow the government into our family
>lives. I know someone who spanked her child in public and some well-meaning
>nitwit reported her to the police for child abuse. The cops came and put
>the whole family through a nightmare while they did a home study. Where
>do we draw the line?
A few years ago at a swimming pool I observed a pretty serious case
of child abuse perpetrated by a LARGE woman who probably outweighed her
3-year-old son about 8 times. The boy was playing in the water on the steps
at the shallow end. It was time to go: the mother informed him of this. No
response. Mother gently takes son by the hand; son begins to fly into a rage,
mother quickly lets go. Mother tries sweet talking. Son continues to play
in water. Mother resorts to lying and bribery, a sure fire way to teach her
son moral values ("if you don't come right now you won't get a candy bar").
Son ignores her: he knows he can get anything he wants if he makes a fuss,
and he knows his mom will not physically back up her authority (i.e., she has
relinquished her authority, but not her accountability for the damage she is
doing). A couple more attempts to take the boy by the hand fail miserably.
Mother resorts to pleading, a deserate "What can I do?" look on her face. I
knew exactly what she could and should do, and what that child needed, but
it wasn't my business to interfere. This woman was a victim of the current
popular and grossly mistaken ideology, and the real victim is her son. Without
the benefit of discipline he has very little chance of turning out right.
This mother is raising a rebel, and I would not want to see the end result,
when her son is 18 or 20. Whereas it was amusing to see this small boy in
complete control of this large woman, it was also pretty disgusting.
Of course, when all is said and done, one would have to admit to an
alienable right to silly putty :-) ...
Disclaimer: My views are generally diametrically opposed to those of my
employer, who assumes no responsibility for them; but this in no way makes
them any less valid.
Ken Fernald
>In article <7...@forsight.Jpl.Nasa.Gov>, g...@robotics.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Erann Gat) writes:
>>
>
> It has never, ever been the law in this nation that children or
>anyone else HAD TO pray, either in school or anywhere else. Children used
>to be free to pray or not to pray; now they are only free not to pray.
No, now they are free to pray or not to pray ON THEIR OWN TIME.
Before, they were forced to sit quitely while a public prayer was
conducted in class. Sure, they could have asked to step out for
a moment, but I don't know many pre-teens willing to submit themselves
to the resulting ridicule. In fact, when I was in school, asking would
have certainly resulting in indirect (if not direct) disciplinary action.
--
/------------------------------------------\
/ kenneth w. fernald (k...@ecersg.ncsu.edu) \
\ north carolina state university /
\------------------------------------------/
Erann Gat
> However, in this case I
> really do think my opinions (not prejudices) do in fact carry more weight.
and prayer deleted]
> At the end, why don't we make the law based on a logical experiment [?]
Not everyone shares your conviction that life should be lived according
to the outcome of scientific experiments. In particular, Christian
Scientists don't believe it, and the first amendement guarantees them
the right not to believe it. There are less extreme examples. There have
been studies that show that sex tends to reduce heart disease. Should we
require everyone, married or not, to engage in regular sex? (Hey, I'm all
for it!)
The point is PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE IRRATIONAL. There is perhaps
an argument to be made that they do not have the right to be irrational
with their children, but this launches us down a slippery slope. For my
money I would rather let a few Christian Scientists' children die than
open the door to the government regulating how I raise my kids.
> Actually, I wonder why ANY christians send their kids to hospitals at all.
Some Christians believe that God helps those who help themselves. Others
are simply hypocrites.
Hal J Eisen
definition of being a child's legal guardian and the definition of
child abuse. I feel that child abuse is when a parent comes home
upset about something other than the child's behaviour, yet relieves
their frustration by physically beating up on thier child. The
responsibility of a guardian is to make decisions for another
individual because that individual is incapabale of deciding for his
or her self. This includes picking a religion for the individual.
Thus, if a parent says "my child is also a Christian Scientist" then
that is as good as the child saying "please don't heal me - i trust in
god." Someone please correct me if my impression of these terms is
wrong.
Hal J Eisen
Charles Hedrick
>It would seem that if, as a chraistain, a person's faith were TRULY strong,
>then they would think they way the Christin Scientists (oxymoron) do: is "god"
>is almighty (and we believe he is) then he will heal the kid if he wants, and
>let the kid die if that's what he desires.
It may be useful to understand that Christian Science is a rather
unusual form of Christianity (if indeed it is one at all). In relying
solely on prayer, they are not just asserting that God should be
allowed to decide whether the person lives or dies. I'm not the right
person to explain Christian Science, but as I understand it, they
believe that natural law is ultimately not real. It is binding only
on those who believe it is, or who are part of a community that
believes it is and aren't individually enlightened. This is not just
an exaggerated view of the role of prayer in the rest of the Church.
It's based on a view of reality that is fundamentally different from
the one most of us believe in.
It is very unusual for Christians to have any objection to medical
service (aside from some specific cases such as abortion). The only
case I can think of the Jehovah's Witnesses' objection to some
treatments (transfusions?). None of the "major" Christian groups
(measured by numbers of members) have such objections. (A fairly
large fraction of hospitals in the U.S. were started by religious
groups.) Even those who do object to medical treatment do not do so
on the grounds that you propose (that God can heal them if he wants).
Generally Christians believe that God does most of his work through
human agents. The goal of Christianity is for us to become
instruments of God's work. To refuse help from others because God can
do it directly is to fly in the face of some of the most basic
teachings of Christ.
This is probably not the right place to discuss prayer. I'd be
interested in the results of a study such as the one you described,
where a controlled attempt is made to see whether prayer helps a
patient. (Of course setting it up is probably impossible, since you'd
have to have a control group matched to the experimental in other
ways, for whom you were sure no prayers were being offered by anyone.)
At any rate, prayer is not primarily intended to create miracles. For
the most committed Christians, it is a spiritual discipline intended
to develop their relationship to God, and to make them more effective
in serving him. It is not primarily (and for many, not at all) a way
to request miracles.
I confess that I am somewhat ambivalent about claims for miraculous
healing. The only attempt I know of to investigate such claims was by
Nolan (author of a number of well-known novels). His book "Healing"
serves as a caution to those who believe miracles have happened. It's
clear from his book that people can believe they have seen a
miraculous healing and be wrong. Unfortunately his book isn't as
helpful to me as it might be, because none of the healers he studied
was an orthodox Christian. The only one who claimed to be a Christian
faith healer was Kathryn Kuhlman, but even she had some disquieting
aspects from a Christian point of view. (She is apparently also an
astrologer.) The more plausible reports come from individual
healings, rather than the well-known media types that he studied.
I am reluctant to completely rule out healing based on prayer. I know
otherwise plausible people who have reported such events. But it's
not the hope of one of these rather unusual miracles that motivates
most people to pray, nor would any sane Christian suggest that we omit
normal medical care while praying.
Dust In The Wind
I was going to stay out of this thread, because all the useful things had
already been said.
So far, the best comment was that more children die in car accidents than as
a result of religious refusal of health care. We all know this, and we all
know that humans have a right not to ride in cars, but nobody has said that
parents shouldn't be allowed to expose their children to such a danger.
However, Doug Linder seems to have returned, and he suggested this
experiment:
> OK, say we take 100 kids and put them in a standard hospital where they
>recieve whatever medical care trained doctors feel necessary. then we
>take 100 other kids as a control group (poor things) and put them in an
>ideantical hospital in every way except instead of doctors, priests pray
>over them for the same amount of time. [ And legislate whichever works
> best. - kwh ]
Firstly, if I remember my statistics correctly, the effectiveness rate for
`modern medicine' is about 80%, and the effectiveness rate for `doing
nothing at all' is about 60%. I don't know of any data on prayers. (If
these statistics are old or mangled by senility, corrections are welcome.)
But more importantly, I find Doug's article horrifying.
What scares me about him is that, though he clearly believes the control
group is going to have more children die, Doug is willing to sacrifice them
to prove his point -- apparently, those children who die are insignificant
when it comes to getting his own opinions legislated.
At first, it might seem ironic that Doug, who goes on long & loud about the
separation of church and state, and who likes to talk about how horrible
religious organisations have been, would suggest that we sacrifice some
children in order to control the free exercise of religion. But it has been
my experience that fanatics of any flavor are equally unconcerned with human
life -- all that matters is that _they_ have control of the people who do
manage to survive.
(The rest of Doug's article was the standard Christianity bashing that he
has posted nonstop since he first showed up on the net, and since he said
nothing new there's no point in replying to it.)
kil...@cs.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy
"Silence is the best reply to a fool."
-- Ali ibn-abu-Talib, cit. from Ali the Caliph
btif...@pbs.uucp
Carl Tait
>br...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>>I'm not a lawyer or anything, but IMHO medical care and employment are
>>covered under "pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration of Independence.
>
>Well, IMHO this line of thinking is a very dangerous one. Does that mean
>that unemployment (and accompanying welfare) is covered under the "pursuit
>of happiness" clause? How about those people who want to use XTC under that
>clause? Maybe medical care should be covered under the "life" part of it,
>but I think that the "pursuit of happiness" is so vague as to serve no
>function other than giving something for lawyers to invoke when they're
>desparate.
And remember that "pursuit of happiness" != "happiness." The government
cannot prevent me from attempting to write and publish The Great American
Novel (assuming it doesn't contain national defense secrets), but there's
certainly no guarantee I will achieve the Nirvana of actual publication.
Neither can the state coerce taxpayers into forking over the money to get
my literary gem into print. Freedom of speech lets me write what I want,
but at my own expense. I'm free to pursue happiness, but that doesn't
mean I'll attain it.
Carl Tait
Ronald BODKIN
>an argument to be made that they do not have the right to be irrational
>with their children, but this launches us down a slippery slope. For my
>money I would rather let a few Christian Scientists' children die than
>open the door to the government regulating how I raise my kids.
parents to do anything they like with their children. Obviously, there
comes a point where irrational treatment becomes child abuse. Is
withholding life-saving treatment child abuse when it was readily
available? I think so. What if the parents, instead of being christians,
just had "bad vibes" about "hospitals and all that stuff". Would you
still be happy to allow their decision not to save their child's life
alone?
Ron