The Most Atheist Country in the World - Harbinger of the Dark Future of the West
Words of Truth
Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer
20-23 July 2003
As I got off the plane in the Prague airport eager to kick off HLI's
first pro-life missionary trip to the Czech Republic in a decade, I
saw before me a twenty-foot-tall billboard featuring a totally naked
woman. At that moment I knew I was in for trouble. I couldn't help but
think of a statement I read in Pat Buchanan's book The Death of the
West. In his book Buchanan quotes former Czech president Vaclav Havel
as uttering this frightening statement: what we are creating, he said,
is "the first atheistic civilization in the history of mankind."
Buchanan says that only 3 percent of the people in the Czech Republic
practice their faith, but others told me that the statistic is as low
as 2 percent. As if to confirm the power of the culture of death,
there is only one NFP-only ob/gyn and only two hospitals in the entire
country that do not perform abortions. Depressing figures, I know, and
if it were not for our hope in Christ, we might give up the battle.
What is now the Czech Republic is the western region of what used to
be called Czechoslovakia, and at one time Bohemia. This country was
carved out of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire after the First World
War and made an independent nation all its own in the heart of Europe.
The region was isolated by mountains on every side, a Slavic enclave
that was generally resistant to other cultural influences until the
Modern Era. Slovakia and the Czech Republic contain two distinctly
different Slavic peoples with their own languages and customs. These
regions split up peacefully into two separate countries in 1993 after
the so-called "Velvet Revolution" of 1991 in which the people
overthrew their Communist oppressors and established democracy. They
are almost buried in the middle of Europe between Germany to the west,
Poland to the north, Austria to the south and the Ukraine to the east.
The Czech Republic is home to one of the most beautiful cities in the
world-Prague, its capital-and has boasted of a deeply Catholic culture
that penetrated into every nook and cranny of its existence. In fact,
the Czech Republic had such a Catholic history that "good king
Wenceslaus" was named the patron saint of the country!
How could this people have fallen so far?
CATHOLICISM DESTROYED BY MASONS AND COMMUNISTS: THE PERFECT CRIME
Our HLI representatives, Mr. Radim Uchac (pron. oo-kotch) and his
wife, Katarina, gave me a brief, but gripping, historical survey of
the destruction of the Faith in this land. Czechoslovakia experienced
a resurgence of nationalism at the end of the 19th and beginning of
the 20th centuries. It was not a bad thing, in itself, but the Masons
entered in during this time and did a lot of damage, especially to
derail nationalism and separate it from the Church. Quite a different
story is how nationalism developed in Poland, its neighbor, where the
national spirit remained united to the faith life of its people.
The Masons sought to drive the Czech people from the Faith by
proposing Jan Hus, a 15th Century church reformer, as a martyr and
symbol of the Czech national identity. Hus was, in actual fact, a
heretic trying to insert Protestant practices into the Czech culture
and was burned at the stake in 1415. Pope Martin V called for a
crusade against the Husite Rebellion in 1420, which shows the
virulence of the anti-Catholic forces that Hus unleashed. For that
reason alone, he qualified as a Masonic martyr and a handy instrument
of division at a time when all things Czech still meant "Catholic." At
the dawn of the industrial revolution, when the Czech people were
forming a stronger identity as a people, a Masonic dichotomy of
"either-or" was presented, which drove a wedge in the strictly
Catholic identity that used to unite them. Some began to think that to
be Czech one had to be Husite even though to be Czech had always meant
to be Catholic.
There is a huge statue of Jan Hus in the main square of Prague. There
used to be a large statue of the Immaculate Conception about 30 feet
from where Hus is commemorated now, but a fanatical woman took a rope
and tore down the statue single-handedly after the First World War. A
legend grew up that the nation would be in a constant state of decline
until that statue was replaced. It is surprising how accurate that
"legend" has proven. Since the demise of the statue, the nation has
only declined and is still suffering through a below-replacement birth
rate and a cultural decadence that is a new revolution: the culture of
death. Needless to say, the statue has yet to be replaced.
The Masonic manipulation of national sentiment also corresponded with
the scapegoating and raping of the Church at the beginning of the last
century. The Czech leaders blamed all of Czechoslovakia's problems on
the Austro-Hungarian Empire's alliance with Rome and alienated the
culture from everything having to do with Vienna and Rome after the
First World War. They couldn't be truly an independent nation, they
said, if they were beholden to foreign powers under the dominion of
priests; they proceeded to steal Church property, vilify Catholicism
and create a climate that was anti-clerical and ripe for an atheistic
revolution.
The Communists, who came to power after the Second World War,
capitalized on these divisions, made Hus a revolutionary hero and
institutionalized atheism as they did in the entire Eastern Bloc. Even
today these Masonic and Communist scars remain: the Czech Republic is
the only post-communist country of Europe that still does not have a
concordat with the Vatican. My hosts, Radim and Katarina, reflected
ironically on how things make a full circle when people and movements
are not of God: the Czech Republic is joining the European Union next
year, and they are happy about it. The only problem is that they are
trading the precious nationalism they worked so hard to gain for
membership in the European club, which is wiping out national
differences and customs!
SIGNS OF THE CULTURE OF DEATH
Since 1957 abortion has been legal, and when Communism fell the Czechs
did not bother to change their laws, like the Poles did, and thus
abortion is still legal on demand in this country up until the 12th
week of pregnancy. In the case of risk to the life or health of the
mother, abortion is legal until birth. For all practical purposes,
then, there are no restrictions on abortion in the Czech Republic. The
liberalization of the abortion law in 1986 caused the number of
surgical abortions to skyrocket to 100,000 per year. The number hovers
around 30,000 now, not counting chemical abortions.
There is a creepy secularism and moral relativism that infects this
land. During my visit I saw huge disgusting billboards showing the
intimate apparel of a man and a woman strewn on a bedroom floor.
Written across the top of these billboards were the words: "anywhere,
anytime, with anyone." they were, of course, condom ads. Does it
surprise you that the unwed birth rate increased from 8 percent to 20
percent in the decade of the 90s? Likewise there was reduction of the
actual number of marriages from 81,000 to 53,000 (a significant drop),
and the fertility rate is perfectly abysmal at 1.13 children per
woman, typical of the whole situation in Europe. I was also told that
there are 10 IVF centers in this country with no laws to regulate in
vitro fertilization, cloning, genetic manipulation and reproductive
medicine.
HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL
Lest I paint a totally negative picture of this beautiful people, I
must mention a few points of light emanating from this small country
of 10 million. The first point of light, of course, is that HLI is
there! Our affiliate is an organization known as Hnuti Pro Život
(simply, the Pro-Life Movement). It was founded by a pro-life hero,
Dr. Zdenek Hejl, in 1957 just after the Communists legalized abortion.
Dr. Hejl almost miraculously kept the pro-life cause alive underground
during all the years of Communism and thereafter. Dr. Hejl passed away
four years ago, but I met his secretary, Mrs. Sylva Bernardova, who is
a magnificent pro-lifer in her own right and who to this day gives
pro-life talks to kids and NFP talks to young adults in marriage
preparation.
Hnuti Pro Život has an impressive record, even despite its battle
scars. In 1968 they brought forth legislation to change the anti-life
abortion law in their country, but the Communists stopped it. What
courage! In 1985-86 they held a series of secret meetings and did a
popular petition against abortion. In 1989 they started a secret
pro-life newspaper and lobbied politicians to change the abortion law.
They brought pro-life amendments to change the constitution after the
1991 revolution but were rejected by the new class of professionals
who were in charge at that time. They have also initiated vast
letter-writing campaigns against sex ed in the schools and the RU-486
death pill and held pilgrimages, marches and publicity campaigns in
defense of life. They are a marvelous group.
Because of its totally Catholic stance on all the life issues, Hnuti
Pro Život finds it tough to work with other pro-life groups in
the country-groups that advocate birth control in their crisis
pregnancy centers and endorse sex ed in the schools. The leader of one
of these groups even has a CPC located in an in vitro fertilization
clinic and sees nothing wrong with it.
My new friends Radim and Katarina are now the driving forces behind
Hnuti Pro Život, and Mrs. Bernardova is thankful for their energy
and enthusiasm. They have four young children, yet they somehow manage
to publish a regular newsletter, organize educational campaigns and
"Helpers" prayer vigils, and they are even hoping to open up a fully
Catholic crisis pregnancy center soon. They are HLI to the core!
During my visit I also made the acquaintance of Dr. František
Matušina who had met Fr. Marx in Czechoslovakia, just after the
fall of Communism, and was instrumental in setting up the first HLI
group which is now replaced with Hnuti Pro Život. Dr.
Matušina has been extremely faithful to the HLI mission over many
years and is a great friend of HLI.
A second point of light is Dr. Jiri Karas, the only fully pro-life
member of Parliament. He is very clear on the life issues and recently
proposed measures to the Parliament on limiting abortion, which was
brought up for discussion the day after I arrived in the country.
Needless to say, the Parliament decided not to do anything about the
country's abortion law, citing as their main reason the United Nations
conventions that allow a woman to decide the size of her family. Their
position takes an analagous stance, for example, to refusing to object
to Hitler killing Jews in concentration camps because the totally
immoral Nuremburg laws said it was okay. We will pray for Dr. Karas
and his lone attempts to change the culture of death into the culture
of life.
HOLINESS SHINING THROUGH THE ATHEISM
On my last day in Prague I had the privilege of praying in the two
most beautiful shrines in the Czech Republic: St. Vitus Cathedral and
the Infant of Prague shrine. Radim, Katarina and I took a walk across
the famous Charles Bridge where St. John Nepomucen was martyred, and
we walked up the hill to the famous picturesque Cathedral of St.
Vitus. For those not familiar with the name, St. John Nepomucen was
the 14th century priest who is invoked as the patron saint of the seal
of the confessional. As the story goes, the wicked King Wenceslaus IV
was terribly jealous of his wife and suspected her of immorality.
After she went to confession to St. John Nepomucen, the king made
every attempt to get the priest to break the seal of the confessional
and reveal to him what she told him in confession. St. John refused.
He was tortured with fire by the King's executioners, his body tied
into a circle (feet to head) and was gagged, then finally thrown off
the Charles Bridge to drown. For me, as a priest, it was a powerful
moment to stand in front of his statue there on the bridge and pledge
again my absolute commitment to maintaining the sacred seal of the
Sacrament of Confession. It is a commitment unto death.
St. Vitus Cathedral is undoubtedly one of the most magnificent
churches in Christendom. It is a Gothic-style cathedral perched on the
highest point of land in Prague, with the whole complex of government
offices situated around and below it on the hill. It is quite symbolic
in itself of how the Church should always be over the state as a moral
authority. The tomb of St. Wenceslaus is located in a side chapel of
the cathedral, with the stunning crown jewels of the Czech Republic in
a compartment behind that locked with seven locks. The crown jewels
contain not only a crown, but a jeweled scepter and a globe that the
monarch used to hold in his hand as a symbol of his concern for all
peoples. Our time of prayer in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel of the
Cathedral was perhaps the pinnacle of my trip in every sense.
Located on a slope of the hill just below the Cathedral, is the
Carmelite Church with the beautiful and tender statuette of the
grace-filled Infant of Prague (as the locals call Him). Most of us
know that image, but few know the story behind it. This small wax
statue was the work of an unknown Spanish artist in the 1500s and the
pious possession of Maria Manrique de Lara, who married a Czech
nobleman and brought the statuette to Prague in 1556. Her daughter
gave it as a gift to the Carmelites in 1628. During the Thirty Years'
War it was desecrated and thrown behind an altar until a pious priest
named Fr. Cyril of Our Lord's Mother searched it out and found it in
1637. When he restored it to its niche, there were many extraordinary
events attributed to it, and people immediately began once again to
venerate the image of Christ. These miraculous events occurred at a
time in Europe when the faith of people in the divinity of Jesus was
growing cold. Single-handedly this beautiful little reminder of the
simplicity and love of the Child Jesus has been a powerful means of
returning many people to the Faith. Let us pray that the Infant of
Prague will lead many more back to the Faith in this time of cultural
and moral devastation.
PRAYERS OF THANKSGIVING
My time in the shrine was spent exclusively for you. I prayed to the
Holy Infant of Prague for all of the HLI staff, board of directors,
international leaders and especially for those of you who make this
mission possible through your constant prayer and generosity. I spent
a good long time thanking the Lord for giving me the privilege of
being able to serve so exalted a mission as HLI's. I know that the
good Lord will continue to bless our friends in the Czech Republic,
and all of us, with the grace of perseverance in this most worthy
cause -saving the lives of many of His precious infants.
Jiri Pecka
Truth) wrote:
>INTO THE CZECH REPUBLIC
>
>
>Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer
>
>
>20-23 July 2003
>
<..>There is a creepy secularism and moral relativism that infects
>this land. During my visit I saw huge disgusting billboards showing
>the intimate apparel of a man and a woman strewn on a bedroom floor.
<...>
Good grief, isn't this incredible! They really dared to show intimate
apparel of a man and a woman?! How disgusting and depraved. Must be
the work of Satan. May the Lord have mercy on their souls!
Jiri Pecka
PS Proud to be a Czech after reading this, by the way. ;-)
JPG
And so you should be. A fine country and a fine people, long may you prosper
without the shackles of religion.
Your beer's good as well - and cheap.
FEEB
I feel the same after reading this load of crap. The guy talks like if he
surfaced from a madrassah in the midst of the second millenia.
Frank Bures, <fe...@chem.utoronto.ca>
Jiri Pecka
<fe...@chem.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>I feel the same after reading this load of crap. The guy talks like if he
>surfaced from a madrassah in the midst of the second millenia.
>
>
>Frank Bures, <fe...@chem.utoronto.ca>
>
BTW I just discovered this:
http://www.400monkeys.com/God/
Enjoy! :-)
Jiri Pecka
Stan R
Love it! Very factual and to the point! :-)
S
The Black Monk
Good for you. As your nation disappears whoever inhabits your land
afterward will look on in amusement at the pride you and your
generation felt at your own self-destruction, the death of your
civilization that took a millenium to build and develope. It is worth
the absinthe, the entertainment, the "free choices" and other forms of
self-indulgence, isn't it?
Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
BM
Jiri Pecka
Monk) wrote:
>> Good grief, isn't this incredible! They really dared to show intimate
>> apparel of a man and a woman?! How disgusting and depraved. Must be
>> the work of Satan. May the Lord have mercy on their souls!
>>
>> Jiri Pecka
>>
>> PS Proud to be a Czech after reading this, by the way. ;-)
>
>Good for you. As your nation disappears whoever inhabits your land
>afterward will look on in amusement at the pride you and your
>generation felt at your own self-destruction, the death of your
>civilization that took a millenium to build and develope. It is worth
>the absinthe, the entertainment, the "free choices" and other forms of
>self-indulgence, isn't it?
>
>Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
I don't like circenses, but I might take some of the panem please. And
while I don't drink absinthe, I don't generally mind free choices, and
other forms of self-indulgence. (Especially chocolate, can you
imagine? Yes, I know, I must be possessed by the Devil - this goes
back all the way to my school days. Oh well.)
But it any case, I enjoy myself every day, how about you? OK, now you
better go back to your bible, buddy. Please make sure you avoid
looking at intimate men's and women's apparel, lest you not be lead
into temptation. You will pray for me, won't you?
God bless,
Jiri Pecka
Vic Sagerquist
whirled, then shouted:
> As I got off the plane in the Prague airport eager to kick off HLI's
> first pro-life missionary trip to the Czech Republic in a decade, I
> saw before me a twenty-foot-tall billboard featuring a totally naked
> woman. At that moment I knew I was in for trouble.
When you get off a plane in Dallas, Texas, one of the first things you
notice is there is a chapel in the airport. What do you prefer, a naked
picture of a woman to massage your brain, or a priest to wash it for you?
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
______________
The whole foundation of Christianity is based on the idea that
intellectualism is the work of the Devil. Remember the apple on the tree?
Okay, it was the Tree of Knowledge. "You eat this apple, you're going to be
as smart as God. We can't have that."
[Frank Zappa]
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
christianism. It meams that the end is close...
Soon Jesus will get you with him... isn't it? An whole lifetime of
worshipping may finally pay off. Hehe
"Words of Truth" <wordsof...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.04102...@posting.google.com...
FEEB
Sasha from Novgorod
"Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message
news:tmugd.8$sU...@fe51.usenetserver.com...
> Hey Words, you should be quite happy that the world is turning away from
> christianism. It meams that the end is close...
> Soon Jesus will get you with him... isn't it? An whole lifetime of
> worshipping may finally pay off. Hehe
>
Or in your case, time to pay up?
Pavel Vozenilek
"Words of Truth" wrote:
> INTO THE CZECH REPUBLIC
>
[snipped]
Politically powerfull churches are indeed
nonexistent in Czech Republic.
Religion is seen as private to individual.
People like OP are seen as crazy fanatics.
/Pavel
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
"Sasha from Novgorod" <Supe...@GoodGuys.org> wrote in message
news:3Uvgd.10174$UC4.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>
> "Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message
> news:tmugd.8$sU...@fe51.usenetserver.com...
> > Hey Words, you should be quite happy that the world is turning away from
> > christianism. It meams that the end is close...
> > Soon Jesus will get you with him... isn't it? An whole lifetime of
> > worshipping may finally pay off. Hehe
> >
>
> Or in your case, time to pay up?
>
I've a good lawyer
FEEB
Sasha from Novgorod
>
> "Sasha from Novgorod" <Supe...@GoodGuys.org> wrote in message
> news:3Uvgd.10174$UC4.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>>
>> "Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message
>> news:tmugd.8$sU...@fe51.usenetserver.com...
>> > Hey Words, you should be quite happy that the world is turning away
>> > from
>> > christianism. It meams that the end is close...
>> > Soon Jesus will get you with him... isn't it? An whole lifetime of
>> > worshipping may finally pay off. Hehe
>> >
>>
>> Or in your case, time to pay up?
>>
>
> I've a good lawyer
>
I hope he's better than your English teacher.
Po-Fransooski govorit Po-Angliski ochen plochaya.
Olrik
If I were not so afraid to fly, Prague would be my second stop, just
after Paris. Stupid phobia...
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
Olrik
Enjoy your cannibalistic religion. It's blood/wine and flesh/bread,
isn't? Oh, and "Jesus" performing "miracles" is kind of a circus, I'd guess.
Well, as the xtians say, "Leave your brain out as you enter, and your
tithe as you leave."
The Black Monk
> On 29 Oct 2004 08:46:41 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> Monk) wrote:
>
> >> Good grief, isn't this incredible! They really dared to show intimate
> >> apparel of a man and a woman?! How disgusting and depraved. Must be
> >> the work of Satan. May the Lord have mercy on their souls!
> >>
> >> Jiri Pecka
> >>
> >> PS Proud to be a Czech after reading this, by the way. ;-)
> >
> >Good for you. As your nation disappears whoever inhabits your land
> >afterward will look on in amusement at the pride you and your
> >generation felt at your own self-destruction, the death of your
> >civilization that took a millenium to build and develope. It is worth
> >the absinthe, the entertainment, the "free choices" and other forms of
> >self-indulgence, isn't it?
> >
> >Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
>
> I don't like circenses, but I might take some of the panem please. And
> while I don't drink absinthe, I don't generally mind free choices,
You missed the quote above. Your choices aren't free, they're
dictated by your corporate masters. Your "freedom" is that of the cow
at pasture.
> and
> other forms of self-indulgence. (Especially chocolate, can you
> imagine? Yes, I know, I must be possessed by the Devil - this goes
> back all the way to my school days. Oh well.)
>
> But it any case, I enjoy myself every day,
Good for you. Maybe, however, you didn't notice that the highest
rates of suicide and depression occur in atheistic countries. An
interesting case study is in Quebec, which experienced the
"liberation" from Christianity quite recently:
Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
church-going part of Canada. In 1998 - 99, Quebec had the highest
suicide rate in Canada - 21.3 per 100,000 people, In the rate for
Canada as a whole was 14 - 33.4 in Quebec
alone. In Japan 17.2 out of every 100,000 take their lives every year
- while in Finland, the rate was 21.9 in 1996.
Highest mental illness rates in the world in the Americas and Europe:
http://www.cmhealth.org/docs/wg1_paper12.pdf
The highest suicide rates in the world are in the secularized
post-soviet societies and in the West.
As I said, I hope you are successful in burying your despair with
material pleasures.
> how about you? OK, now you
> better go back to your bible, buddy. Please make sure you avoid
> looking at intimate men's and women's apparel, lest you not be lead
> into temptation. You will pray for me, won't you?
Sure. And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
will have sharia. But what do you care? You have your
self-indulgence. Enjoy it...
BM
> God bless,
> Jiri Pecka
The Black Monk
Are you suggesting non-Christians are more intelligent than Christians? LOL.
BM
thomas p
Monk) wrote:
I thought that bearing false witness was supposed to be a sin. I
guess it's okay if it is in the service of Jesus.
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
"The Black Monk" <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c21219d5.04103...@posting.google.com...
Too much simplistic. There are many more worthy theories to explain higuer
suicide rates in any society. I know that the christian party in USA says
that removal of school prayers killed over 700 000 peoples by suicide.
That's simply ridiculous. I don't pretend to have the ultimate answer, but
you better look for other possibilities.
Some say that right wing governments increase the suicide rate in a society.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992817
Another study, on Canadian natives enormous suicide rates evaluates the
following reasons: Socio-economic, Psycho-biological and culture stress.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_nati.htm
I find this one very interesting: "Culture stress: The Canadian
government's policies included the destruction of much of Native culture,
values and religion. With the help of the Christian churches, these
traditions were largely replaced with Christianity. The main players were
the Roman Catholic Church, Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church
of Canada. Many native children grow up with little knowledge of their
original culture. The government financed religious institutions so that
they could establish residential school systems. Sometimes, children were
kidnapped and taken long distances from their communities. In school, they
were isolated from their families or origin and forcibly stripped of their
language, religion, traditions and culture. Not mentioned in Coulthard's
essay was the extremely high level of physical and sexual abuse suffered by
Native children at the religious schools. The result has been, depression,
difficulty in effectively parenting future generations, loss of culture --
and suicide."
Quebec's struggle to preserve its culture is certainly a form of cultural
stress. Not as much as the natives, but Quebec doesn't have an as much high
rate of suicide as the natives do.
Also, a deeper analysis shows that suicide rates are way lower in Montreal's
area (the less religiously practicing region of Quebec in percentage) than
in the other Quebec's regions. Regions other than Montreal are slowly dying
economically and in population. Lack of jobs, hopelessness, uprooting,
socio-economic inequalities are good hints about the reasons of the high
suicide rates in regions.
« Je n'invente rien, je ne fais que lire les données publiques de
Statistique Canada », dit M. Côté. Le déracinement systématique des
populations et la lente disparition du monde rural ont causé de terribles
inégalités socioéconomiques entre les régions. Six d'entre elles sont
désormais numériquement en perte sèche : Abitibi, Bas-Saint-Laurent,
Côte-Nord, Gaspésie, Mauricie, Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean (données 1996-2001).
« Or, plus une population manque d'emplois, plus sa morbidité est élevée.
C'est aussi une question de désespoir. » Selon M. Côté, en 1993-1994, la
Gaspésie, par exemple, a « fabriqué », toutes proportions gardées, deux fois
plus de malades que la région de Laval (morbidité hospitalière). « Les
inégalités socioéconomiques vident les régions tout en les rendant plus
malades. C'est aussi simple et cruel que ça ! »
http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/zone30/Classiques_des_sciences_sociales/desintegration/Cote_et_Larouche/taux_de_suicide_qc_2003/taux_de_suicide_texte.html
Many other questions like: Why are dentists the most at risk group for
suicide? Why are males suiciding many times more than women? Why are july
and august the months where the most suicides are commited?
In the bilingual province of New Brunswick, francophones have an higuer risk
of suicide than anglophones. They didn't went through the quiet revolution
of the 60's, unlike Quebeckers.
http://www.inspq.qc.ca/pdf/publications/283-FeuilletEpidemioSuicide.pdf
(French only)
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
"The Black Monk" <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c21219d5.04103...@posting.google.com...
Matt. 11
25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned
(French version specifically says to intelligents)
No further comment
>
> BM
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
"Sasha from Novgorod" <Supe...@GoodGuys.org> wrote in message
>
> "Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message
> news:y7ygd.36$sU5...@fe51.usenetserver.com...
> >
> > "Sasha from Novgorod" <Supe...@GoodGuys.org> wrote in message
> > news:3Uvgd.10174$UC4.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> >>
> >> "Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message
> >> news:tmugd.8$sU...@fe51.usenetserver.com...
> >> > Hey Words, you should be quite happy that the world is turning away
> >> > from
> >> > christianism. It meams that the end is close...
> >> > Soon Jesus will get you with him... isn't it? An whole lifetime of
> >> > worshipping may finally pay off. Hehe
> >> >
> >>
> >> Or in your case, time to pay up?
> >>
> >
> > I've a good lawyer
> >
>
> I hope he's better than your English teacher.
>
> Po-Fransooski govorit Po-Angliski ochen plochaya.
Но он говорить по-руский лучше чем Саша из новгорода.
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
>
> "Sasha from Novgorod" <Supe...@GoodGuys.org> wrote in message
> news:LQzgd.13191$UC4.6...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> >
> > "Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message
> > news:y7ygd.36$sU5...@fe51.usenetserver.com...
> > >
> > > "Sasha from Novgorod" <Supe...@GoodGuys.org> wrote in message
> > > news:3Uvgd.10174$UC4.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > >>
> > >> "Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message
> > >> news:tmugd.8$sU...@fe51.usenetserver.com...
> > >> > Hey Words, you should be quite happy that the world is turning away
> > >> > from
> > >> > christianism. It meams that the end is close...
> > >> > Soon Jesus will get you with him... isn't it? An whole lifetime of
> > >> > worshipping may finally pay off. Hehe
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Or in your case, time to pay up?
> > >>
> > >
> > > I've a good lawyer
> > >
> >
> > I hope he's better than your English teacher.
> >
> > Po-Fransooski govorit Po-Angliski ochen plochaya.
>
> Но он говорить по-руский лучше чем Саша из новгорода.
Et on ne parle pas encore de la merveilleuse langue francaise. Tu as encore
beaucoup de chemin a parcourir pour me rattraper avec les langues mon cher
petit anglo-etatsunien.
thomas p
Monk) wrote:
>no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote in message news:<41826a7e.6378859@news-server>...
>> On 29 Oct 2004 08:46:41 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
>> Monk) wrote:
snip
>>
>> But it any case, I enjoy myself every day,
>
>Good for you. Maybe, however, you didn't notice that the highest
>rates of suicide and depression occur in atheistic countries. An
>interesting case study is in Quebec, which experienced the
>"liberation" from Christianity quite recently:
>
>Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
>3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
>women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
>secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
>church-going part of Canada. In 1998 - 99, Quebec had the highest
>suicide rate in Canada - 21.3 per 100,000 people, In the rate for
>Canada as a whole was 14 - 33.4 in Quebec
>alone. In Japan 17.2 out of every 100,000 take their lives every year
And the only thing that could possibly have caused an increase in
suicide is a change in church attendance. What an argument!
>
>Highest mental illness rates in the world in the Americas and Europe:
All of Scandinavia used to be known for high suicide rates. I
remember being told by a nun that Denmark had a high rate because of
socialism. She was unaware that Denmark did not have a socialist
system, but after the introduction of a comprehensive welfare system
here the suicide rate dropped; there may or may not have been a
connection. That was during the same period that regular attendance at
religious services practically disappeared; there may or may not have
been a connection. Determining the cause of something is extremely
difficult. You make way too many assumptions.
>
>http://www.cmhealth.org/docs/wg1_paper12.pdf
>
>The highest suicide rates in the world are in the secularized
>post-soviet societies and in the West.
The society was not secular under the Soviets?
>
>As I said, I hope you are successful in burying your despair with
>material pleasures.
What despair are you talking about? What personal knowledge do you
have of the person you are responding to? You do like to assume your
conclusions don't you?
>> how about you? OK, now you
>> better go back to your bible, buddy. Please make sure you avoid
>> looking at intimate men's and women's apparel, lest you not be lead
>> into temptation. You will pray for me, won't you?
>
>Sure. And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
>will have sharia. But what do you care? You have your
>self-indulgence. Enjoy it...
Insults with no substantiation and lots of ill will.
QT
(Long, quoted text snipped)
Fuc**ng idiot, stop this stupid habit of crossposting other peoples'
long texts with a stupid, crappy one-liner from you! Learn to snip,
imbecile.
qt
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
"QT" <quicktransR...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:2ui9afF...@uni-berlin.de...
Go tell that to your mommy!
>
>
> qt
>
>
Sasha from Novgorod
Does he mean that you are having sex with low IQ people or that you are
somewhat mentally challenged but live an enjoyable life whilst propgating
more genetically similiar FI's.
>
>>
>>
>> qt
>>
>>
>
>
>
Frank
don't throw pearls to the swines. They don't deserve you words.
They are stupid enough not to understand. I do apologize for them.
Panama Floyd
Apologies for taking advantage of the x-post, but may I ask if Czech
is a difficult language to learn?
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta
aa#2015, Member KoB!
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
"Sasha from Novgorod" <Supe...@GoodGuys.org> wrote in message
I think he means his boyfriend just left him yesterday and now his heart is
broke. This situation causes to him some uncontrolled anger. But he'll
probably find some other boys when he'll finally turn the page.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> qt
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Jiri Pecka
Monk) wrote:
>And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
>will have sharia.
You seem a bit confused buddy: Atheism is not actually the same as
Islam. It means something else altogether. Look it up in a dictionary.
Good luck,
Jiri Pecka
Jiri Pecka
<thomasa...@yahoo.dk> wrote:
>>Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
>
>I thought that bearing false witness was supposed to be a sin. I
>guess it's okay if it is in the service of Jesus.
Not even mentioning "woe to those through whom scandals come". I guess
our friend Black Monk should study the Bible a little harder... ;-)
Jiri Pecka
Jiri Pecka
wrote:
Difficult (for an English speaker), but it may be worth it. The
language is more expressive than English (for example the abundance of
inflections, suffixes, prefixes, diminutives, etc., can provide words
with subtle "shades" of meanings which can be sometimes hard to
express in English). So, by learning Czech, you may find a kind of a
new dimension in language that you might not have experienced before.
Jiri Pecka
strider
> >Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
> >3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
> >women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
> >secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
> >church-going part of Canada. In 1998 - 99, Quebec had the highest
> >suicide rate in Canada - 21.3 per 100,000 people, In the rate for
> >Canada as a whole was 14 - 33.4 in Quebec
> >alone. In Japan 17.2 out of every 100,000 take their lives every year
>
> And the only thing that could possibly have caused an increase in
> suicide is a change in church attendance. What an argument!
And let's not forget the claim this is supposed to substantiate, that
atheism represents a grave threat to civlization itself. Somehow this
not terribly conclusive conenction of atheism to 22 suicides per
100,000 people is convincing proof that atheism will destroy
civlization (through absinth no less).
But, to make an equally unfair turn of the argument back on the monk:
Those people flying the planes into the buildings--you know the ones
who are supposedly about to get WMD and kill millions of innocents,
the ones who (if Clash of Civilizations is to be believed) are bent on
destroying Western Civlization--how many of them are atheists?
Billy Goat
> no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote in message news:<41826a7e.6378859@news-server>...
> > and
> > other forms of self-indulgence. (Especially chocolate, can you
> > imagine? Yes, I know, I must be possessed by the Devil - this goes
> > back all the way to my school days. Oh well.)
> >
> > But it any case, I enjoy myself every day,
>
> Good for you. Maybe, however, you didn't notice that the highest
> rates of suicide and depression occur in atheistic countries. An
> interesting case study is in Quebec, which experienced the
> "liberation" from Christianity quite recently:
>
> Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
> 3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
> women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
> secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
> church-going part of Canada.
Therefore, the church-goers are the ones committing suicide.
--Billy
Jiri Pecka
Monk) wrote:
>> >Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
>>
>> I don't like circenses, but I might take some of the panem please. And
>> while I don't drink absinthe, I don't generally mind free choices,
>
>You missed the quote above. Your choices aren't free, they're
>dictated by your corporate masters.
I have my own business, thank you. A lot of free choices! ! :-)
>Your "freedom" is that of the cow at pasture.
Jesus: I am the good shepherd. (John 1:11, 14-16.)
Isn't it funny how the bible bashers are so obsessed about cattle and
pastures? It's cows at pasture one day, Lamb of God the other, and
then they would all have us herded like sheep in their churches - and
looked after a shepherd.
Wow, now that's really some "freedom of choice": You are free to
choose Jesus Christ today. (Or else, be damned!) :-)
Jiri Pecka
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Well I know of one group who claims to be more 'umnie' than everybody
else ;)
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Well, of course, for someone who does not believe in the concept
of sin (transgression against a god given law code), it wouldn't
be a sin! ;)
Also for some religions it's o.k. to bear false witness, if the
testimony would be damaging for a co-religionist against an
unbeliever. (No JESUS matters involved)
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
I understand that you also have to learn to do without vowels. ;)
How does that sentence about putting ones fingers down ones
throat go again? ;)
Stan R
A bit like speaking in tongues? :-)
QT
... bla bla bla....
Well at least you've learned how to snip.
qt
thomas p
A polite question. Was their a point in the above?
Jiri Pecka
The famous sentence is "strc prst skrz krk". :-)
It is often used as a tongue-twister by kids.
But actually, it is not quite "without vowels": You see, even if there
are no vowel characters in the sentence, the letters "r" in fact
represent *voiced* consonants in Czech (unlike in English, where they
represent an unvoiced "schwa" sound).
So, just imagine "er" instead of the "r" in the above words,
add a little tongue trill to the "r" (a bit like the French do but not
so strong), and the "r" sound will then assume a definite vowel-like
quality (which then makes the above sentence pronouncible)... :-)
Jiri Pecka
HAESSIG Frédéric Pierre Tamatoa
Words of Truth <wordsof...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message :
3d02dea6.04102...@posting.google.com...
Plonk.
HAESSIG Frédéric Pierre Tamatoa
JPG <m...@privacy.net> a écrit dans le message :
vg24o09oevlotn31i...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:27:08 GMT, no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote:
>
> >On 28 Oct 2004 20:53:53 -0700, wordsof...@hotmail.com (Words of
> >Truth) wrote:
> >
> >>INTO THE CZECH REPUBLIC
> >>
> >>
> >>Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer
> >>
> >>
> >>20-23 July 2003
> >>
> >
> ><..>There is a creepy secularism and moral relativism that infects
> >>this land. During my visit I saw huge disgusting billboards showing
> >>the intimate apparel of a man and a woman strewn on a bedroom floor.
> ><...>
> >
> >Good grief, isn't this incredible! They really dared to show intimate
> >apparel of a man and a woman?! How disgusting and depraved. Must be
> >the work of Satan. May the Lord have mercy on their souls!
> >
> >Jiri Pecka
> >
> >PS Proud to be a Czech after reading this, by the way. ;-)
>
>
prosper
> without the shackles of religion.
>
> Your beer's good as well - and cheap.
>
>
Seconded. Religion is a private matter, not a public one.
Al Klein
Monk) said in alt.atheism:
>Are you suggesting non-Christians are more intelligent than Christians? LOL.
"Suggesting"? That's like "suggesting" that the ocean is wetter than
the desert. Non-Christians - at least those of the atheist persuasion
- are intelligent enough to not carry a childish fantasy into
adulthood. Christians aren't.
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus On the True Doctrine, translated by R. Joseph Hoffman, Oxford University Press, 1987
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
Al Klein
>I thought that bearing false witness was supposed to be a sin. I
>guess it's okay if it is in the service of Jesus.
Remind me - which early Christian said that lying for Jesus was no
sin?
Al Klein
<add...@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:
>When you get off a plane in Dallas, Texas, one of the first things you
>notice is there is a chapel in the airport.
Never noticed it. Too busy looking for the bus to the car rental
building. Cars exist.
Al Klein
>I understand that you also have to learn to do without vowels. ;)
I thought that was Welsh.
The Black Monk
> thomas p <thomasa...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:>
>
> > >Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
> > >3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
> > >women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
> > >secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
> > >church-going part of Canada. In 1998 - 99, Quebec had the highest
> > >suicide rate in Canada - 21.3 per 100,000 people, In the rate for
> > >Canada as a whole was 14 - 33.4 in Quebec
> > >alone. In Japan 17.2 out of every 100,000 take their lives every year
> >
> > And the only thing that could possibly have caused an increase in
> > suicide is a change in church attendance. What an argument!
>
> And let's not forget the claim this is supposed to substantiate, that
> atheism represents a grave threat to civlization itself. Somehow this
> not terribly conclusive conenction of atheism to 22 suicides per
> 100,000 people is convincing proof that atheism will destroy
> civlization (through absinth no less).
The real key is the drop in birth rates that come along with
secularization, of course. The suicide rate was never mentioned by me
as the cause of population decline, only as proof of unhappiness rife
in the secular world.
> But, to make an equally unfair turn of the argument back on the monk:
>
> Those people flying the planes into the buildings--you know the ones
> who are supposedly about to get WMD and kill millions of innocents,
> the ones who (if Clash of Civilizations is to be believed) are bent on
> destroying Western Civlization--how many of them are atheists?
Sorry, I never claimed all religions are equal. But the morality of
religions and religion as necessary for a culture's survival are two
entirely different issues. In the latter sense Islamic countries are
doing far better than secularized ones.
BM
The Black Monk
> On 29 Oct 2004 08:46:41 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> Monk) wrote:
>
> >no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote in message news:<4181fee5.1173359@news-server>...
> >> Truth) wrote:
> >>
> >> >INTO THE CZECH REPUBLIC
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >20-23 July 2003
> >> >
> >>
> >> <..>There is a creepy secularism and moral relativism that infects
> >> >this land. During my visit I saw huge disgusting billboards showing
> >> >the intimate apparel of a man and a woman strewn on a bedroom floor.
> >> <...>
> >>
> >> Good grief, isn't this incredible! They really dared to show intimate
> >> apparel of a man and a woman?! How disgusting and depraved. Must be
> >> the work of Satan. May the Lord have mercy on their souls!
> >>
> >> Jiri Pecka
> >>
> >> PS Proud to be a Czech after reading this, by the way. ;-)
> >
> >afterward will look on in amusement at the pride you and your
> >generation felt at your own self-destruction, the death of your
> >civilization that took a millenium to build and develope. It is worth
> >the absinthe, the entertainment, the "free choices" and other forms of
> >self-indulgence, isn't it?
> >
> >Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
>
> guess it's okay if it is in the service of Jesus.
Empty claim from you, of course.
BM
The Black Monk
Use that mind of yours. I'll spell it out for you. Atheism = low
birth rate. Low birth rate = need for immigration. Guess where
they're coming from?
Maybe now you can figure out where sharia fits intot he picture? Or
should I try to s-p-e-l-l it out for you even more carefully?
Given current population trends Spain will be majority Muslim in 50
years. The rest of Europe will follow. But hey, it's worth it for
you isn't? You get to enjoy watching underwear on billboards, a
symbol of your freedom and liberty.
------------------
BM
The Black Monk
> On 30 Oct 2004 07:35:20 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> Monk) wrote:
>
> >> >Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
> >>
> >> I don't like circenses, but I might take some of the panem please. And
> >> while I don't drink absinthe, I don't generally mind free choices,
> >
> >You missed the quote above. Your choices aren't free, they're
> >dictated by your corporate masters.
>
> I have my own business, thank you. A lot of free choices! ! :-)
Actually, none at all. The market dictates to you what you think and
who you are. You are enslaved by it. Your "choices" are merely the
work of the marketing experts, themselves part of the same system.
Any look into the empty souless eyes of the western bourgoueis tells
you that quite quickly. Did you hear about the Czech sheep all coming
to that fake store in the field? Poor lost sheep...
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3070274
It is no wonder that your ilk choose suicide. Directly in some cases,
indirectly through national extinction in others. Or murder-suicide
on a grand scale with the post-Christian Nazi degenerates bringing
about their gotterdammerung.
> >Your "freedom" is that of the cow at pasture.
>
> Jesus: I am the good shepherd. (John 1:11, 14-16.)
>
> Isn't it funny how the bible bashers are so obsessed about cattle and
> pastures?
Given the fact that the Biblical events occurred in a rural society
and context it's hardly surprising. Why does this surprise you?
> It's cows at pasture one day, Lamb of God the other, and
> then they would all have us herded like sheep in their churches - and
> looked after a shepherd.
>
> Wow, now that's really some "freedom of choice": You are free to
> choose Jesus Christ today. (Or else, be damned!) :-)
Sorry pal, Dostoyevsky already proved that Christianity = freedom.
regards,
BM
> Jiri Pecka
The Black Monk
> >
>
> >Good for you. Maybe, however, you didn't notice that the highest
> >rates of suicide and depression occur in atheistic countries. An
> >interesting case study is in Quebec, which experienced the
> >"liberation" from Christianity quite recently:
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
> >3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
> >women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
> >secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
> >church-going part of Canada. In 1998 - 99, Quebec had the highest
> >suicide rate in Canada - 21.3 per 100,000 people, In the rate for
> >Canada as a whole was 14 - 33.4 in Quebec
> >alone. In Japan 17.2 out of every 100,000 take their lives every year
>
> And the only thing that could possibly have caused an increase in
> suicide is a change in church attendance.
Never said it was the only thing. But a highly likely factor.
> What an argument!
You have yet to produce even this - an argument.
> >
> >Highest mental illness rates in the world in the Americas and Europe:
>
>
> All of Scandinavia used to be known for high suicide rates. I
> remember being told by a nun that Denmark had a high rate because of
> socialism. She was unaware that Denmark did not have a socialist
> system, but after the introduction of a comprehensive welfare system
> here the suicide rate dropped; there may or may not have been a
> connection. That was during the same period that regular attendance at
> religious services practically disappeared; there may or may not have
> been a connection. Determining the cause of something is extremely
> difficult. You make way too many assumptions.
>
> >
> >http://www.cmhealth.org/docs/wg1_paper12.pdf
> >
> >The highest suicide rates in the world are in the secularized
> >post-soviet societies and in the West.
>
> The society was not secular under the Soviets?
Of course, hence high suicide rates there now.
> >As I said, I hope you are successful in burying your despair with
> >material pleasures.
>
> What despair are you talking about? What personal knowledge do you
> have of the person you are responding to? You do like to assume your
> conclusions don't you?
Not really.
>
> >> how about you? OK, now you
> >> better go back to your bible, buddy. Please make sure you avoid
> >> looking at intimate men's and women's apparel, lest you not be lead
> >> into temptation. You will pray for me, won't you?
> >
>
> >Sure. And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
> >will have sharia. But what do you care? You have your
> >self-indulgence. Enjoy it...
>
> Insults with no substantiation and lots of ill will.
Birth rate and immigration rates are substantiation. It is you who
are incapable of offering anything to back up your empty words.
BM
The Black Monk
debate/argument.
"Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message news:<YfQgd.134$sU...@fe51.usenetserver.com>...
> > >
> > > But it any case, I enjoy myself every day,
> >
> > Good for you. Maybe, however, you didn't notice that the highest
> > rates of suicide and depression occur in atheistic countries. An
> > interesting case study is in Quebec, which experienced the
> > "liberation" from Christianity quite recently:
> >
> > Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
> > 3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
> > women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
> > secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
> > church-going part of Canada. In 1998 - 99, Quebec had the highest
> > suicide rate in Canada - 21.3 per 100,000 people, In the rate for
> > Canada as a whole was 14 - 33.4 in Quebec
> > alone. In Japan 17.2 out of every 100,000 take their lives every year
> > - while in Finland, the rate was 21.9 in 1996.
>
>
> Too much simplistic. There are many more worthy theories to explain higuer
> suicide rates in any society. I know that the christian party in USA says
> that removal of school prayers killed over 700 000 peoples by suicide.
> That's simply ridiculous. I don't pretend to have the ultimate answer, but
> you better look for other possibilities.
>
> Some say that right wing governments increase the suicide rate in a society.
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992817
Right. Erich Fromm brilliantly described the disgusting way in which
capitalism supplanted Christian humanism starting in the 18th century.
But Quebec's government has hardly been right wing during
secularization.
> Another study, on Canadian natives enormous suicide rates evaluates the
> following reasons: Socio-economic, Psycho-biological and culture stress.
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_nati.htm
>
> I find this one very interesting: "Culture stress: The Canadian
> government's policies included the destruction of much of Native culture,
> values and religion. With the help of the Christian churches, these
> traditions were largely replaced with Christianity. The main players were
> the Roman Catholic Church, Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church
> of Canada. Many native children grow up with little knowledge of their
> original culture. The government financed religious institutions so that
> they could establish residential school systems. Sometimes, children were
> kidnapped and taken long distances from their communities. In school, they
> were isolated from their families or origin and forcibly stripped of their
> language, religion, traditions and culture. Not mentioned in Coulthard's
> essay was the extremely high level of physical and sexual abuse suffered by
> Native children at the religious schools. The result has been, depression,
> difficulty in effectively parenting future generations, loss of culture --
> and suicide."
A good point. Note that I did not claim that suicide was only caused
by lack of religion. I simply pointed to higher suicide rates in
secular socieites as proof of more despair in those societies.
Contradicitng that Czech guy's fact-free assertions to the contrary.
> Quebec's struggle to preserve its culture is certainly a form of cultural
> stress. Not as much as the natives, but Quebec doesn't have an as much high
> rate of suicide as the natives do.
So they were less stressed before the 1960's.
> Also, a deeper analysis shows that suicide rates are way lower in Montreal's
> area (the less religiously practicing region of Quebec in percentage) than
> in the other Quebec's regions.
And still higher in Montreal, the most secular city, than in any other
Canadian city.
> Regions other than Montreal are slowly dying
> economically and in population. Lack of jobs, hopelessness, uprooting,
> socio-economic inequalities are good hints about the reasons of the high
> suicide rates in regions.
Certainly those factors also make a difference. However much poorer
areas in the world that are religious (i.e., Mexico, Guatemala,
Nigeria) don't have this problem. And there have been times in the
past when Quebec's economy was much worse than it is now - but prior
to secularization, no big suicide rates. So it's reasonable to
conclude that secualization is a big (although not only) factor in
suicide rates and that this reflects more despair in secular
societies.
regards,
BM
> « Je n'invente rien, je ne fais que lire les données publiques de
> Statistique Canada », dit M. Côté. Le déracinement systématique des
> populations et la lente disparition du monde rural ont causé de terribles
> inégalités socioéconomiques entre les régions. Six d'entre elles sont
> désormais numériquement en perte sèche : Abitibi, Bas-Saint-Laurent,
> Côte-Nord, Gaspésie, Mauricie, Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean (données 1996-2001).
> « Or, plus une population manque d'emplois, plus sa morbidité est élevée.
> C'est aussi une question de désespoir. » Selon M. Côté, en 1993-1994, la
> Gaspésie, par exemple, a « fabriqué », toutes proportions gardées, deux fois
> plus de malades que la région de Laval (morbidité hospitalière). « Les
> inégalités socioéconomiques vident les régions tout en les rendant plus
> malades. C'est aussi simple et cruel que ça ! »
> http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/zone30/Classiques_des_sciences_sociales/desintegration/Cote_et_Larouche/taux_de_suicide_qc_2003/taux_de_suicide_texte.html
>
>
> Many other questions like: Why are dentists the most at risk group for
> suicide? Why are males suiciding many times more than women? Why are july
> and august the months where the most suicides are commited?
>
> In the bilingual province of New Brunswick, francophones have an higuer risk
> of suicide than anglophones. They didn't went through the quiet revolution
> of the 60's, unlike Quebeckers.
> http://www.inspq.qc.ca/pdf/publications/283-FeuilletEpidemioSuicide.pdf
> (French only)
>
>
> >
> > Highest mental illness rates in the world in the Americas and Europe:
> >
> > http://www.cmhealth.org/docs/wg1_paper12.pdf
> >
> > The highest suicide rates in the world are in the secularized
> > post-soviet societies and in the West.
> >
> > As I said, I hope you are successful in burying your despair with
> > material pleasures.
> >
> > > how about you? OK, now you
> > > better go back to your bible, buddy. Please make sure you avoid
> > > looking at intimate men's and women's apparel, lest you not be lead
> > > into temptation. You will pray for me, won't you?
> >
> > Sure. And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
> > will have sharia. But what do you care? You have your
> > self-indulgence. Enjoy it...
> >
> > BM
> >
> > > God bless,
> > > Jiri Pecka
Vic Sagerquist
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:29:07 -0500, Vic Sagerquist
> <add...@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:
>
>>When you get off a plane in Dallas, Texas, one of the first things you
>>notice is there is a chapel in the airport.
>
> Never noticed it. Too busy looking for the bus to the car rental
> building. Cars exist.
AL KLEIN! Long time no see! How ya been?
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
______________
Vote for John Kerry
God belongs in church, not the White House.
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
"The Black Monk" <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c21219d5.04103...@posting.google.com...
> You seem to be the only one of this bunch capable of a rational
> debate/argument.
>
Well, thank you. I could say the same about you.
Depends. If you compare it to traditionnal society, it is quite right-wing.
While Quebec is almost as left as possible in Canada, it still present great
changes to its society.
They were also more lowly educated and maybe could not understand the stakes
of our society. 1960's revolution brought universal access to higuer
education.
> > Also, a deeper analysis shows that suicide rates are way lower in
Montreal's
> > area (the less religiously practicing region of Quebec in percentage)
than
> > in the other Quebec's regions.
>
> And still higher in Montreal, the most secular city, than in any other
> Canadian city.
>
Not really, Montreal is doing in the average.
> > Regions other than Montreal are slowly dying
> > economically and in population. Lack of jobs, hopelessness, uprooting,
> > socio-economic inequalities are good hints about the reasons of the high
> > suicide rates in regions.
>
> Certainly those factors also make a difference. However much poorer
> areas in the world that are religious (i.e., Mexico, Guatemala,
> Nigeria) don't have this problem. And there have been times in the
> past when Quebec's economy was much worse than it is now - but prior
> to secularization, no big suicide rates. So it's reasonable to
> conclude that secualization is a big (although not only) factor in
> suicide rates and that this reflects more despair in secular
> societies.
>
It is an easy answer, I agree. But scientific research shows other paths
wich are more complex. Quiet revolution didn't implied only religious drop,
which was not instantly effective either. Still today. a majority of
Quebeckers claim to be catholic while many of them don't actively practice
it. There was an almost complete change of our society to jump into the
highest spheres of modernity.
If you want to blame someone for this, blame the US life-style that
influenced the way the Quebec society evolved in the 60's. Today, it would
be quite different however.
thomas p
Monk) wrote:
>strider...@yahoo.com (strider) wrote in message news:<3f37935a.04103...@posting.google.com>...
>> thomas p <thomasa...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:>
>>
snip
>Sorry, I never claimed all religions are equal. But the morality of
>religions and religion as necessary for a culture's survival are two
>entirely different issues. In the latter sense Islamic countries are
>doing far better than secularized ones.
What an incredibly silly statement!
thomas p
Monk) wrote:
>no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote in message news:<41846adc.9579921@news-server>...
>> On 30 Oct 2004 07:35:20 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
>> Monk) wrote:
>>
>> >> >Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
>> >>
>> >> I don't like circenses, but I might take some of the panem please. And
>> >> while I don't drink absinthe, I don't generally mind free choices,
>> >
>> >You missed the quote above. Your choices aren't free, they're
>> >dictated by your corporate masters.
>>
>> I have my own business, thank you. A lot of free choices! ! :-)
>Actually, none at all. The market dictates to you what you think and
>who you are.
What incredible arrogance.
snip
thomas p
wrote:
>On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:40:00 +0200, thomas p
><thomasa...@yahoo.dk> said in alt.atheism:
>
>>I thought that bearing false witness was supposed to be a sin. I
>>guess it's okay if it is in the service of Jesus.
>
>Remind me - which early Christian said that lying for Jesus was no
>sin?
Hello Al. Nice to hear from you.
thomas p
Monk) wrote:
Not at all. You made a great deal of nasty implications about an
individual that you do not know. That is bearing false witness.
John Ritson
Monk <cherni...@hotmail.com> writes>news:<41826a7e.6378859@news-server>...
>> On 29 Oct 2004 08:46:41 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
>> Monk) wrote:
>>
>> >> Good grief, isn't this incredible! They really dared to show intimate
>> >> apparel of a man and a woman?! How disgusting and depraved. Must be
>> >> the work of Satan. May the Lord have mercy on their souls!
>> >>
>> >> Jiri Pecka
>> >>
>> >> PS Proud to be a Czech after reading this, by the way. ;-)
>> >
>> >Good for you. As your nation disappears whoever inhabits your land
>> >afterward will look on in amusement at the pride you and your
>> >generation felt at your own self-destruction, the death of your
>> >civilization that took a millenium to build and develope. It is worth
>> >the absinthe, the entertainment, the "free choices" and other forms of
>> >self-indulgence, isn't it?
>> >
>> >Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
>>
>> while I don't drink absinthe, I don't generally mind free choices,
>
>You missed the quote above. Your choices aren't free, they're
>at pasture.
>
>> and
>> other forms of self-indulgence. (Especially chocolate, can you
>> imagine? Yes, I know, I must be possessed by the Devil - this goes
>> back all the way to my school days. Oh well.)
>>
>> But it any case, I enjoy myself every day,
>
>Good for you. Maybe, however, you didn't notice that the highest
>rates of suicide and depression occur in atheistic countries. An
>interesting case study is in Quebec, which experienced the
>"liberation" from Christianity quite recently:
>
>Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
>3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
>women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
>secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
>church-going part of Canada. In 1998 - 99, Quebec had the highest
>suicide rate in Canada - 21.3 per 100,000 people, In the rate for
>Canada as a whole was 14 - 33.4 in Quebec
>alone. In Japan 17.2 out of every 100,000 take their lives every year
>- while in Finland, the rate was 21.9 in 1996.
>
>
>http://www.cmhealth.org/docs/wg1_paper12.pdf
>
>The highest suicide rates in the world are in the secularized
>post-soviet societies and in the West.
The highest 'recorded' suicide rates. In many religious societies
suicide is considered shameful for the family involved and gets covered
up and described as an accident.
--
John Ritson
Jack Stone
"The Black Monk" <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote
> .... And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
> will have sharia. But what do you care? You have your
> self-indulgence. Enjoy it...
>
> BM
Well, those who preach and practice sharia aren't that much different from
christians who burned so called "witches" at stake, undertook the Crusades
and did all kinds of other evil deeds throughout the centuries in the name
of God. Same kind of evil. Of course some ideologies that preach atheism can
be evil as well considering Stalin, Mao etc. But atheism without other evil
ideology is quite harmless. Christianity is not the answer, atheism in a
well established democracy is :-)
--
Jack Stone
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Lepsi pivo v zaludku nezli voda na plicich."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
''
"It's better to have beer in the stomach than water in the lungs."
J. Cimrman
Jack Stone
"The Black Monk" <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c21219d5.04102...@posting.google.com...
> > On 28 Oct 2004 20:53:53 -0700, wordsof...@hotmail.com (Words of
> > Truth) wrote:
> >
> > >INTO THE CZECH REPUBLIC
> > >
> > >
> > >Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer
> > >
> > >
> > >20-23 July 2003
> > >
> >
> > <..>There is a creepy secularism and moral relativism that infects
> > >this land. During my visit I saw huge disgusting billboards showing
> > >the intimate apparel of a man and a woman strewn on a bedroom floor.
> > <...>
> >
> > apparel of a man and a woman?! How disgusting and depraved. Must be
> > the work of Satan. May the Lord have mercy on their souls!
> >
> > Jiri Pecka
> >
> > PS Proud to be a Czech after reading this, by the way. ;-)
>
> Good for you. As your nation disappears whoever inhabits your land
> afterward will look on in amusement at the pride you and your
> generation felt at your own self-destruction, the death of your
> civilization that took a millenium to build and develope. It is worth
> the absinthe, the entertainment, the "free choices" and other forms of
> self-indulgence, isn't it?
>
> Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
>
Well, the Czech Republic (formerly Czech Kingdom) doesn't appear anywhere
closer sliding to Hell than for example the United States :-) Actually, when
considering crime and all other things related to future self destruction of
certain countries or societies, atheist Czech Republic is doing quite well
and is one of the most peaceful places on this planet. It is religious
fundametalists that cause most evil things in today's world. May they be
muslims, christians or whatever. So yeah, It is worth the absinthe, the
entertainment, the "free choices" and other forms of self-indulgence if they
don't harm others. And they surely don't as much as religion does. Atheism
is one of the few good things that happened to this country because of its
communist past (actually socialism, communism never existed anywhere yet)
Jack Stone
"Vic Sagerquist" <add...@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9591609A...@216.196.97.142...
> on 28 Oct 2004 in alt.atheism, Words of Truth dropped trou, farted,
> whirled, then shouted:
>
> > As I got off the plane in the Prague airport eager to kick off HLI's
> > first pro-life missionary trip to the Czech Republic in a decade, I
> > saw before me a twenty-foot-tall billboard featuring a totally naked
> > woman. At that moment I knew I was in for trouble.
>
> When you get off a plane in Dallas, Texas, one of the first things you
> picture of a woman to massage your brain, or a priest to wash it for you?
>
Well, both cases are probably correct considering their locations. Texans
are mostly practicing christians, so they go after their flight to their
chapel to prey to God that they survived it (considering today's state of
air travel, terrorism etc. :-) And Czechs coming back to Prague on the other
hand get an idea what to do right after they get home since they survived
their flight as well and don't have to worry anymore about dying in it :-)
Of course the Prague case is much more enjoyable but hey, whatever floats
their boat :-)
Vic Sagerquist
>
> "Vic Sagerquist" <add...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9591609A...@216.196.97.142...
>> on 28 Oct 2004 in alt.atheism, Words of Truth dropped trou, farted,
>> whirled, then shouted:
>>
>> > As I got off the plane in the Prague airport eager to kick off
>> > HLI's first pro-life missionary trip to the Czech Republic in a
>> > decade, I saw before me a twenty-foot-tall billboard featuring a
>> > totally naked woman. At that moment I knew I was in for trouble.
>>
>> When you get off a plane in Dallas, Texas, one of the first things
>> you notice is there is a chapel in the airport. What do you prefer,
>> a naked picture of a woman to massage your brain, or a priest to wash
>> it for you?
>>
>
> Well, both cases are probably correct considering their locations.
> Texans are mostly practicing christians, so they go after their flight
> to their chapel to prey to God that they survived it (considering
> today's state of air travel, terrorism etc. :-) And Czechs coming back
> to Prague on the other hand get an idea what to do right after they
> get home since they survived their flight as well and don't have to
> worry anymore about dying in it :-) Of course the Prague case is much
> more enjoyable but hey, whatever floats their boat :-)
>
It floats mine...
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Yes
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Well, Yeah. But when, in the long thread about consonants in Slavic,
that was cross posted between here (scr) and the linguistic newsgroup,
I raised the possibility of vowels voiced during the actual speaking,
but unwritten, I was assured that this was not the case ;)
I tried to illustrate by referring to the Ukrainian pronounciation
which would be something like "sterchy persti skriz' kark"
where the vowels are both pronounced and longer. ;)
--
Rostyk
Gene Wirchenko
>On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 02:30:32 -0500, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
><urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
>>I understand that you also have to learn to do without vowels. ;)
>>How does that sentence about putting ones fingers down ones
>>throat go again? ;)
>
>The famous sentence is "strc prst skrz krk". :-)
>
>It is often used as a tongue-twister by kids.
>
>But actually, it is not quite "without vowels": You see, even if there
>are no vowel characters in the sentence, the letters "r" in fact
>represent *voiced* consonants in Czech (unlike in English, where they
>represent an unvoiced "schwa" sound).
>
>So, just imagine "er" instead of the "r" in the above words,
>add a little tongue trill to the "r" (a bit like the French do but not
>so strong), and the "r" sound will then assume a definite vowel-like
>quality (which then makes the above sentence pronouncible)... :-)
Is the same true for the sentence that was mentioned in
Guinness's Book of World Records? That sentence translates to "The
skunk fell down and ruptured its larnyx." Apparently, it is also
vowelless.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Jiri Pecka
Monk) wrote:
>Actually, none at all. The market dictates to you what you think and
>who you are.
The "market" is my customers. I am finding it actually quite proper
that they should dictate what I do for them, as I dictate to my own
suppliers, too. They certainly do not dictate what I think and who I
am: I think freely, and I know who I am - and I do like it that way. I
doubt that you can say the same thing of yourself, otherwise you would
not be spreading all this hateful shit around.
>You are enslaved by it. Your "choices" are merely the
>work of the marketing experts, themselves part of the same system.
>Any look into the empty souless eyes of the western bourgoueis tells
>you that quite quickly.
Oh now I can well understand your "crusade". Your true colour is now
clearly shining through your black habit, and it is - no surprises -
RED. I always suspected that there is no much difference between
communists and religious fanatics - the same hateful ilk.
> Did you hear about the Czech sheep all coming
>to that fake store in the field? Poor lost sheep...
>
>
> http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3070274
What are you actually trying to prove by this article? In any case,
interesting that you have chosen then most intelligent
pro-free-market and secular publication today. I do commend on your
choice. But what a pity you apparently don't read it most of it - as
you should, from cover to cover. It will do you better than your
bible.
>> Isn't it funny how the bible bashers are so obsessed about cattle and
>> pastures?
>
>Given the fact that the Biblical events occurred in a rural society
>and context it's hardly surprising. Why does this surprise you?
It does not actually. I just said it was "funny". (In the "ha ha"
sense.) I bet this is where you would like to return: to a 15th
century feudal utopia where the church rules supreme over the souls of
meek, docile, hard-working, god-loving, sheep-like peasants.
And of course no free market under the tsar (or the commissar).
So pictoresque, so bucolic, and so naive. Yes, I am still finding it
very funny. Although it is also a little bit sad that someone would
still harbour such views in the 21st century.
>> It's cows at pasture one day, Lamb of God the other, and
>> then they would all have us herded like sheep in their churches - and
>> looked after a shepherd.
>>
>> Wow, now that's really some "freedom of choice": You are free to
>> choose Jesus Christ today. (Or else, be damned!) :-)
>
>Sorry pal, Dostoyevsky already proved that Christianity = freedom.
Sorry pal, he did not prove anything, he just wrote a few gloomy,
depressing novels, obsessed about suicide, and as gloomy and
depressing as Christianity itself. No wonder you call yourself Black
Monk: You have an obsessive and dark mind indeed. I bet your childhood
hero was Savonarola, and you really can't wait for the Apocalypse to
come, can you: Better repent now, buddy. But you already know that.
Jiri Pecka
Jiri Pecka
<urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>J
>>
>Well, Yeah. But when, in the long thread about consonants in Slavic,
>that was cross posted between here (scr) and the linguistic newsgroup,
>I raised the possibility of vowels voiced during the actual speaking,
>but unwritten, I was assured that this was not the case ;)
Nah, of course they are voiced. I could even show you a spectrogram
if I had the time. VERY voiced. Trust me. :-)
>I tried to illustrate by referring to the Ukrainian pronounciation
>which would be something like "sterchy persti skriz' kark"
>where the vowels are both pronounced and longer. ;)
And you were right. :-)
Jiri Pecka
Jiri Pecka
Monk) wrote:
>no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote in message news:<418449f8.1160390@news-server>...
>> On 30 Oct 2004 07:35:20 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
>> Monk) wrote:
>>
>> >And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
>> >will have sharia.
>>
>> You seem a bit confused buddy: Atheism is not actually the same as
>> Islam. It means something else altogether. Look it up in a dictionary.
>>
>> Good luck,
>> Jiri Pecka
>
>Use that mind of yours. I'll spell it out for you. Atheism = low
>birth rate. Low birth rate = need for immigration. Guess where
>they're coming from?
>
>Maybe now you can figure out where sharia fits intot he picture? Or
>should I try to s-p-e-l-l it out for you even more carefully?
>
>Given current population trends Spain will be majority Muslim in 50
>years. The rest of Europe will follow. But hey, it's worth it for
>you isn't? You get to enjoy watching underwear on billboards, a
>symbol of your freedom and liberty.
A decline in population in an already overcrowded place like Europe
may not be such a bad thing, and may be in fact quite beneficial in
some respects (such as less pressure on resources and infrastructure).
But at the same time, Europe should keep immigrant Muslims out of
course - and this will require a lot of political will, which it may
not be able to find and agree on. Most importantly, Europeans need to
dismantle the existing social security system and increase the
retirement age. These are the main culprits which are causing
islamisation of Europe - certainly not the prevailing atheism of its
current population.
The atheist Czech republic has so far largely avoided Muslim
immigration, unlike the far more religious Spain, France, and Germany
- which are the main worry. The Germans, for example, are certainly
far more religious than the Czechs, and yet started to import their
Turkish workers decades ago.
You worry rightly about islamisation of Europe, but you picked the
wrong cause of it, and a wrong remedy.
Jiri Pecka
Al Klein
<thomasa...@yahoo.dk> said in alt.atheism:
>On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:07:25 GMT, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:40:00 +0200, thomas p
>><thomasa...@yahoo.dk> said in alt.atheism:
>>
>>>I thought that bearing false witness was supposed to be a sin. I
>>>guess it's okay if it is in the service of Jesus.
>>
>>Remind me - which early Christian said that lying for Jesus was no
>>sin?
>
>Hello Al. Nice to hear from you.
Hi, thomas - nice to be heard again. Been busy buying a new business.
I may be back regularly now that I'm only spending half days (12
hours) at the office.
Al Klein
<add...@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:
>On 31 Oct 2004, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:29:07 -0500, Vic Sagerquist
>> <add...@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:
>>
>>>When you get off a plane in Dallas, Texas, one of the first things you
>>>notice is there is a chapel in the airport.
>>
>> Never noticed it. Too busy looking for the bus to the car rental
>> building. Cars exist.
>
>AL KLEIN! Long time no see! How ya been?
Lost 60 pounds. Got older. Same old same old.
thomas p
<urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>thomas p wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 02:19:56 -0500, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
>> <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>thomas p wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 29 Oct 2004 08:46:41 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
>>>>Monk) wrote:
snip
>>>>>
>>>>>Good for you. As your nation disappears whoever inhabits your land
>>>>>afterward will look on in amusement at the pride you and your
>>>>>generation felt at your own self-destruction, the death of your
>>>>>civilization that took a millenium to build and develope. It is worth
>>>>>the absinthe, the entertainment, the "free choices" and other forms of
>>>>>self-indulgence, isn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>>Enjoy your panem et circenses while they last...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I thought that bearing false witness was supposed to be a sin. I
>>>>guess it's okay if it is in the service of Jesus.
>>>
>>>Well, of course, for someone who does not believe in the concept
>>>of sin (transgression against a god given law code), it wouldn't
>>>be a sin! ;)
>>>Also for some religions it's o.k. to bear false witness, if the
>>>testimony would be damaging for a co-religionist against an
>>>unbeliever. (No JESUS matters involved)
>>
>>
>> A polite question. Was their a point in the above?
>>
>>
>Yes
Thank you so much.
Jiri Pecka
Monk) wrote:
>no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote in message news:<418449f8.1160390@news-server>...
>> On 30 Oct 2004 07:35:20 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
>> Monk) wrote:
>>
>> >And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
>> >will have sharia.
>>
>> You seem a bit confused buddy: Atheism is not actually the same as
>> Islam. It means something else altogether. Look it up in a dictionary.
>>
>> Good luck,
>> Jiri Pecka
>
>Use that mind of yours. I'll spell it out for you. Atheism = low
>birth rate.
If so, maybe you would like to read this:
-------------------------------------------------
Vatican sex guide urges Catholics to do 'it' more often
By Julian Coman
(Filed: 31/10/2004)
A Vatican-sanctioned sex guide is encouraging churchgoers to make love
more often in an effort to offset "impotence and frigidity" and
address papal concerns over declining birth-rates among Italian Roman
Catholics.
(Complete article at http://tinyurl.com/6osfy .)
-------------------------------------------------
It's nothing to do with religion, silly: With affluence, yes.
Jiri Pecka
Lisbeth Andersson
copywright lawss by copying a sermon by Rev. Thomas J.
Euteneuer from 20-23 July 2003 in message
news:<3d02dea6.04102...@posting.google.com>...
<.....>
>
> SIGNS OF THE CULTURE OF DEATH
>
> Since 1957 abortion has been legal, and when Communism fell the Czechs
> did not bother to change their laws, like the Poles did, and thus
> abortion is still legal on demand in this country up until the 12th
> week of pregnancy. In the case of risk to the life or health of the
> mother, abortion is legal until birth. For all practical purposes,
> then, there are no restrictions on abortion in the Czech Republic. The
> liberalization of the abortion law in 1986 caused the number of
> surgical abortions to skyrocket to 100,000 per year. The number hovers
> around 30,000 now, not counting chemical abortions.
>
A somewhat longwinded way of saying that the number of abortions is
down 70%.
> There is a creepy secularism and moral relativism that infects this
> land. During my visit I saw huge disgusting billboards showing the
> intimate apparel of a man and a woman strewn on a bedroom floor.
> Written across the top of these billboards were the words: "anywhere,
> anytime, with anyone." they were, of course, condom ads. Does it
This might have caused the abortion rate to drop 70%. Instead of
celebrating that there are a lot fewer abortions the guy is
complaining about it.
> surprise you that the unwed birth rate increased from 8 percent to 20
> percent in the decade of the 90s? Likewise there was reduction of the
> actual number of marriages from 81,000 to 53,000 (a significant drop),
> and the fertility rate is perfectly abysmal at 1.13 children per
> woman, typical of the whole situation in Europe. I was also told that
> there are 10 IVF centers in this country with no laws to regulate in
> vitro fertilization, cloning, genetic manipulation and reproductive
> medicine.
> <.....>
What is he going on about here? There are too few births? There are the
"wrong" children being born (to unwed parents)? Is he upset that the
condom ads are not working or that people choose to have children without
getting married? And when they try to help people having children is
it not a good thing? Or is he complaining that there are too few
IVF centers? Has anybody found any logic in the above paragraph?
In my experience, the people who complain the loudest about abortions
are the ones who are against the most effective methods of reducing
them, sex education and contraceptives.
Lisbeth
-------
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
duke
Lookie here who's back.
>>Are you suggesting non-Christians are more intelligent than Christians? LOL.
>"Suggesting"? That's like "suggesting" that the ocean is wetter than
>the desert. Non-Christians - at least those of the atheist persuasion
>- are intelligent enough to not carry a childish fantasy into
>adulthood. Christians aren't.
But are childish enough to believe that God is a fantasy.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
seth
--> that is, the religious freaks like this "words of truth" wanker....
But then again, logic has always been a foreign concept for God's
servants...
Markku Jantunen
> Sorry, I never claimed all religions are equal. But the morality of
> religions and religion as necessary for a culture's survival are two
> entirely different issues. In the latter sense Islamic countries are
> doing far better than secularized ones.
You may be right in that something like religion may be needed to
force people to procreate at replacement levels. Childrearing is a lot
of work and more than two children per family, which is necessary to
replace also those who can't or won't procreate at all, is more than a
critical majority of people in the secular world generally bother
with. Based on that, some people predict secular societies will vanish
in the course of the next few centuries. I do not believe
sub-replacement level fertility is quite sufficient to spell the
annihilation of a society. At least modest gaps between actual and
replacement level fertility can be filled with immigration and the
assimilation of immigrants. The USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand
are examples of nations succesfully assimilating large numbers of
immigrants from foreign cultures. In fact, almost everyone living in
them has not-too-distant ancestors on other continents. Full
assimulation in the second or third generation is the most typical
course of events. (It's possible, of course, to fuck this up by not
selecting immigrant populations carefully enough or alienating the
newcomers by treating them wrongly.)
But making predections about distant future, say, years 100-200 ahead
from now, is questionable for many other reasons, too. In your
analysis, for instance, you have excluded the potential effect of
technology on the very fundamentals of human condition itself, like
the maximum length of human healthspan (only one particular example).
Thousands of scientists are working hard every day to beat common
killers like cancer and the fundamental mechanisms that cause the body
to fall apart and die. Hundreds of thousands of scientists are working
in fields that more or less directly assist medicine and biotechnology
by creating and improving upon the tools needed. If current trends
continue for the next few decades, computers then will be more
powerful than they are now by several orders of magnitude. The
advancement of computing is already drastically cutting R&D costs in
countless fields, most importantly biochemistry in general and drug
development in particular, where dead ends can be increasingly
detected by simulations. Many fields like computing and material
science have a synergistic effect on each other. Better materials
needed for countless purposes like building better sensors, computing
devices, and manipulators are made possible by better computers.
I'm telling you all of that in the above paragraph for you to see that
predictions into the DISTANT FUTURE are IRRELEVANT as the rules of the
game are constantly changing at a pace that seems to be increasing all
the time.
- mj
The Black Monk
> The Black Monk <cherni...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message : > Use
> that mind of yours. I'll spell it out for you.
>
> >Atheism = low
> > birth rate
>
> counter-exemple invalidate this.
It's more of a general rule than a law.
Then, look at Italy ).
Which has experienced Quebec-style secularization in the latest
generation.
There is a clear trend between atheism and low birth rate. Compare
the birth rate in Czech republic, the most secular people in eastern
Europe, with its more religious neighbor Poland. Compare Catholic
Poland to its more secular eastern neighbors also. Within Ukraine,
there is a great difference in birth rate among the regions:
Births per thousand population:
Lviv 8.75
Ivano-Frankivsk 9.55
Ternopil 8.82
Rivne 11.21
Zarkarpatia 10.94
Luhansk 6.18
Sumy 6.79
Kharkiv 6.68
Donetske 6.17
The former regions (oblasts) are religious and experiencing a revival
of sorts (this is where the Pope drew millions during his visit) the
latter are more Sovietized/atheist.
Obviously other factors are also involved, such as economic, education
(because currently education emphasizes materialisitc concerns), etc.
-although in the example above the higher birth rate regions are as
poor or poorer than low birth rate regions and there are no difference
in education. The statement that there isn't a significant link
between religion and birth rate is simply absurd and flies in the face
of the evidence.
regards,
BM
>
> Religion isn't suposed to be mindless. But sometimes its proponents make it
> seem so.
The Black Monk
> On 30 Oct 2004 07:36:06 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> Monk) said in alt.atheism:
>
> >Are you suggesting non-Christians are more intelligent than Christians? LOL.
>
> "Suggesting"? That's like "suggesting" that the ocean is wetter than
> the desert. Non-Christians - at least those of the atheist persuasion
> - are intelligent enough to not carry a childish fantasy into
> adulthood. Christians aren't.
Given your claims with respect to intelligence, perhaps you can
explain why is it that so many of the greatest geniuses - scientists
(Newton, etc.), writers, thinkers etc. have been Christian while very
few have been atheists. Atheism has always been associated with
mediocrity.
BM
Christopher A. Lee
Monk) wrote:
>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message news:<67s9o0d99pf8rre6u...@4ax.com>...
>> On 30 Oct 2004 07:36:06 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
>> Monk) said in alt.atheism:
>>
>> >Are you suggesting non-Christians are more intelligent than Christians? LOL.
>>
>> "Suggesting"? That's like "suggesting" that the ocean is wetter than
>> the desert. Non-Christians - at least those of the atheist persuasion
>> - are intelligent enough to not carry a childish fantasy into
>> adulthood. Christians aren't.
>
>Given your claims with respect to intelligence, perhaps you can
>explain why is it that so many of the greatest geniuses - scientists
>(Newton, etc.), writers, thinkers etc. have been Christian while very
>few have been atheists. Atheism has always been associated with
>mediocrity.
Pretends the lying troll.
And so many weren't. Do you even have a point?
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
> "HAESSIG Frédéric Pierre Tamatoa" <fhae...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:<41852b1a$0$3606$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr>...
> > The Black Monk <cherni...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message : >
Use
> > that mind of yours. I'll spell it out for you.
> >
> > >Atheism = low
> > > birth rate
> >
> > Prove your hypothesis, then we can talk. ( NB don't forget that any
> > counter-exemple invalidate this.
>
> It's more of a general rule than a law.
>
> Then, look at Italy ).
>
> Which has experienced Quebec-style secularization in the latest
> generation.
>
> There is a clear trend between atheism and low birth rate. Compare
> the birth rate in Czech republic, the most secular people in eastern
> Europe, with its more religious neighbor Poland. Compare Catholic
> Poland to its more secular eastern neighbors also. Within Ukraine,
> there is a great difference in birth rate among the regions:
What about a correlation rather than a causal effect? Maybe something brings
altogether the social changes, increased wealth, drop of religion and lower
birth rates. If we reverse the proposition, we could say as well that low
birth rates reduced people's religious beliefs. Or we could say that
prosperity reduces both birth rates and faith. Making a too quick analysis
could make all these statements seem accurate at first sight.
Besides, state secularity doesn't show to induce lower birth-rates (See
Soviet Union, China). In fact, there is somehow a correlation between
democracy (USA being obviously an exception, while on the other hand there
are many critics and questionning about it. Some analysts qualify today's
USA more as a Republic than a Democracy), respect of human rights, wealth,
education, absence of belief of individuals and low birth rates. This is not
an exhaustive list, but there are clearly many factors involved.
History shows that there is a correlation between hard times in a society
and rise of religious faith. Plagues, starvations, wars, helplessness are
often accompanied by turning to a surnatural force or another in the hope of
receiving help. I don't have detailed statistics, but I would bet that
there are also rises of birth rates. There was a surge of births during the
years following WW2, the baby-boom.
Another important factor to consider are contraceptive measures. Atheists
don't stop having sexual relationships. Low birth-rates are typically a very
modern issue (last 50 years). And from my own personnal experience (which, I
admit, has no scientific value), I don't see a difference between believers
and non-believers about the use of contraceptives.
For someone who is a believer, personnal feelings will probably give this
person the impression that living without faith brings despair. But for a
non-believer, there is not this sense of despair. Despair of what? The quest
for thruth is not an easy one. The origins of humanity always fascinated the
collective soul. Yet, nobody could explain with certainty where we come
from, why we are here (if there is a reason at all), where are we suppose to
go.
I would like to submit another hypothesis on a closely related subject: Man
is denatured by the absence of struggle for survival and disappearance of
suffering. For some members of the specy, it causes mental disorders, sense
of despair and sometimes suicide.
What's do you think about this hypothesis?
Oldrich Kyn
> How does that sentence about putting ones fingers down ones
> throat go again? ;)
There are some other tricks in the Czech language. The famous comedian
and writer Jan Werich wrote the whole short story using just single
syllable words.O.K.
Mike Painter
> Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message
> news:<67s9o0d99pf8rre6u...@4ax.com>...
>> On 30 Oct 2004 07:36:06 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
>> Monk) said in alt.atheism:
>>
>>> Are you suggesting non-Christians are more intelligent than
>>> Christians? LOL.
>>
>> "Suggesting"? That's like "suggesting" that the ocean is wetter than
>> the desert. Non-Christians - at least those of the atheist
>> persuasion - are intelligent enough to not carry a childish fantasy
>> into
>> adulthood. Christians aren't.
>
> Given your claims with respect to intelligence, perhaps you can
> explain why is it that so many of the greatest geniuses - scientists
> (Newton, etc.), writers, thinkers etc. have been Christian while very
> few have been atheists. Atheism has always been associated with
> mediocrity.
>
More to the point however is the fact that this statement is not true today.
The higher up the ladder you go in science, the fewer theists, much less
christians.
Po-Frantsuzki Pozhaluista
"The Black Monk" <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c21219d5.04110...@posting.google.com...
news:<67s9o0d99pf8rre6u...@4ax.com>...
> > On 30 Oct 2004 07:36:06 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> > Monk) said in alt.atheism:
> >
> > >Are you suggesting non-Christians are more intelligent than Christians?
LOL.
> >
> > "Suggesting"? That's like "suggesting" that the ocean is wetter than
> > the desert. Non-Christians - at least those of the atheist persuasion
> > - are intelligent enough to not carry a childish fantasy into
> > adulthood. Christians aren't.
>
> Given your claims with respect to intelligence, perhaps you can
> explain why is it that so many of the greatest geniuses - scientists
> (Newton, etc.), writers, thinkers etc. have been Christian while very
> few have been atheists. Atheism has always been associated with
> mediocrity.
Sorry, I don't agree with that. There was a social pressure to embrace
Christiannity from birth. Living in another society they could have embrace
Islam, Budhism, or anything else. Not being said that a god exists and his
name is christ, they would probably never have tought about this. See a few
quotes coming directly from mediocre people:
If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save
people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of
their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV
preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul,
foul, foul.
-- Isaac Asimov, I. Asimov: A Memoir
I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of
the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the
community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight
against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has
become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any
attempt to organize peace on this planet.
-- Albert Einstein, letter, 1954
He [the Rev. Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my
conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers
were heard.
-- Benjamin Franklin, from Franklin's Autobiography
I am aware that the assumed instinctive belief in God has been used by many
persons as an argument for his existence. The idea of a universal and
beneficent Creator does not seem to arise in the mind of man, until he has
been elevated by long-continued culture.
-- Charles Darwin
Having learned from the time I was at school that there is nothing one can
imagine so strange or so unbelievable that it has not been said by one of
other of the philosophers; and since then, while travelling, having
recognized that those who hold opinions quite opposed to ours are not on
that account barbarians or savages, but that many exercise as much reason as
we do, or more; and having considered how a given man, with his given mind,
being brought up from childhood among the French or Germans becomes
different from what he would be if he had always lived among the Chinese or
among the cannibals ... I was convinced that our beliefs are based much more
on custom and example than on any certain knowledge.
-- René Descartes
Theologians are all alike, of whatever religion or country they may be;
their aim is always to wield despotic authority over men's consciences; they
therefore persecute all of us who have the temerity to tell the truth.
-- Frederick the Great
The psychoanalysis of individual human beings, however, teaches us with
quite special insistence that the god of each of them is formed in the
likeness of his father, that his personal relation to God depends on his
relation to his father in the flesh and oscillates and changes along with
that relation, and that at bottom God is nothing other than an exalted
father.
-- Sigmund Freud
Religion is too important a matter to its devotees to be a subject of
ridicule. If they indulge in absurdities, they are to be pitied rather than
ridiculed.
-- Immanuel Kant
For though a man should be a complete unbeliever in the being of gods; if he
also has a native uprightness of temper, such persons will detest evil in
men; their repugnance to wrong disinclines them to commit wrongful acts;
they shun the unrighteous and are drawn to the upright.
-- Plato
And your favorite one :-)) :
The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have
lost the power of reasoning.
-- Voltaire:
Estimated IQ: 168 http://www.webenet.com/301geniusestable2.htm
This said, I admit that being christian does not prevent someone from
accomplishing great things or making scientifical advanced. Associating
atheism with mediocrity is purely "mauvaise foi" and without base.
Oldrich Kyn
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 02:30:32 -0500, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
> <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >Jiri Pecka wrote:
> >
> >> On 30 Oct 2004 14:21:22 -0700, panam...@aol.com (Panama Floyd)
> >> wrote:
> >>
>
> >> language is more expressive than English (for example the abundance of
> >> inflections, suffixes, prefixes, diminutives, etc., can provide words
> >> with subtle "shades" of meanings which can be sometimes hard to
> >> express in English). So, by learning Czech, you may find a kind of a
> >> new dimension in language that you might not have experienced before.
> >>
> >> Jiri Pecka
> >>
> >How does that sentence about putting ones fingers down ones
> >throat go again? ;)
>
This of course exists in other languages as well.
Once I had a collegue of the Yugoslavian origin, named Terkla, which
was obviously already "weternized" name derived from the original word
TRKL.
There are in the Czech an probably in the other Slavic languages as
well, many similar words, like: krkl, vrkl, smrkl, brnkl, cvrnkl, ....
I also understand that the similar use of r or l as vowels exists in
the Bavarian slang of German. And both Czech and Bavarian cases are
probably remnants of the Celtic language of Boi.
>
> It is often used as a tongue-twister by kids.
>
> But actually, it is not quite "without vowels": You see, even if there
> are no vowel characters in the sentence, the letters "r" in fact
> represent *voiced* consonants in Czech (unlike in English, where they
> represent an unvoiced "schwa" sound).
>
> So, just imagine "er" instead of the "r" in the above words,
> add a little tongue trill to the "r" (a bit like the French do but not
> so strong), and the "r" sound will then assume a definite vowel-like
> quality (which then makes the above sentence pronouncible)... :-)
>
> Jiri Pecka
Not-easily-duped
> INTO THE CZECH REPUBLIC
>
>
> Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer
>
>
> 20-23 July 2003
>
>
> first pro-life missionary trip to the Czech Republic in a decade, I
> saw before me a twenty-foot-tall billboard featuring a totally naked
> think of a statement I read in Pat Buchanan's book The Death of the
> West. In his book Buchanan quotes former Czech president Vaclav Havel
> as uttering this frightening statement: what we are creating, he said,
> is "the first atheistic civilization in the history of mankind."
> Buchanan says that only 3 percent of the people in the Czech Republic
> practice their faith, but others told me that the statistic is as low
> as 2 percent. As if to confirm the power of the culture of death,
> there is only one NFP-only ob/gyn and only two hospitals in the entire
> country that do not perform abortions. Depressing figures, I know, and
> if it were not for our hope in Christ, we might give up the battle.
>
> What is now the Czech Republic is the western region of what used to
> be called Czechoslovakia, and at one time Bohemia. This country was
> carved out of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire after the First World
> War and made an independent nation all its own in the heart of Europe.
> The region was isolated by mountains on every side, a Slavic enclave
> that was generally resistant to other cultural influences until the
> Modern Era. Slovakia and the Czech Republic contain two distinctly
> different Slavic peoples with their own languages and customs. These
> regions split up peacefully into two separate countries in 1993 after
> the so-called "Velvet Revolution" of 1991 in which the people
> overthrew their Communist oppressors and established democracy. They
> are almost buried in the middle of Europe between Germany to the west,
> Poland to the north, Austria to the south and the Ukraine to the east.
> The Czech Republic is home to one of the most beautiful cities in the
> world-Prague, its capital-and has boasted of a deeply Catholic culture
> that penetrated into every nook and cranny of its existence. In fact,
> the Czech Republic had such a Catholic history that "good king
> Wenceslaus" was named the patron saint of the country!
>
> How could this people have fallen so far?
>
> CATHOLICISM DESTROYED BY MASONS AND COMMUNISTS: THE PERFECT CRIME
>
> Our HLI representatives, Mr. Radim Uchac (pron. oo-kotch) and his
> wife, Katarina, gave me a brief, but gripping, historical survey of
> the destruction of the Faith in this land. Czechoslovakia experienced
> a resurgence of nationalism at the end of the 19th and beginning of
> the 20th centuries. It was not a bad thing, in itself, but the Masons
> entered in during this time and did a lot of damage, especially to
> derail nationalism and separate it from the Church. Quite a different
> story is how nationalism developed in Poland, its neighbor, where the
> national spirit remained united to the faith life of its people.
>
> The Masons sought to drive the Czech people from the Faith by
> proposing Jan Hus, a 15th Century church reformer, as a martyr and
> symbol of the Czech national identity. Hus was, in actual fact, a
> heretic trying to insert Protestant practices into the Czech culture
> and was burned at the stake in 1415. Pope Martin V called for a
> crusade against the Husite Rebellion in 1420, which shows the
> virulence of the anti-Catholic forces that Hus unleashed. For that
> reason alone, he qualified as a Masonic martyr and a handy instrument
> of division at a time when all things Czech still meant "Catholic." At
> the dawn of the industrial revolution, when the Czech people were
> forming a stronger identity as a people, a Masonic dichotomy of
> "either-or" was presented, which drove a wedge in the strictly
> Catholic identity that used to unite them. Some began to think that to
> be Czech one had to be Husite even though to be Czech had always meant
> to be Catholic.
>
> There is a huge statue of Jan Hus in the main square of Prague. There
> used to be a large statue of the Immaculate Conception about 30 feet
> from where Hus is commemorated now, but a fanatical woman took a rope
> and tore down the statue single-handedly after the First World War. A
> legend grew up that the nation would be in a constant state of decline
> until that statue was replaced. It is surprising how accurate that
> "legend" has proven. Since the demise of the statue, the nation has
> only declined and is still suffering through a below-replacement birth
> rate and a cultural decadence that is a new revolution: the culture of
> death. Needless to say, the statue has yet to be replaced.
>
> The Masonic manipulation of national sentiment also corresponded with
> the scapegoating and raping of the Church at the beginning of the last
> century. The Czech leaders blamed all of Czechoslovakia's problems on
> the Austro-Hungarian Empire's alliance with Rome and alienated the
> culture from everything having to do with Vienna and Rome after the
> First World War. They couldn't be truly an independent nation, they
> said, if they were beholden to foreign powers under the dominion of
> priests; they proceeded to steal Church property, vilify Catholicism
> and create a climate that was anti-clerical and ripe for an atheistic
> revolution.
You should blame this on the Roman Curia and its dominion of priests.
It is not conform to God's intent for the world.
Vatican should dismantle itself and let every country apply the NEW COVENANT
to its society and nation.
>
> The Communists, who came to power after the Second World War,
> capitalized on these divisions, made Hus a revolutionary hero and
> institutionalized atheism as they did in the entire Eastern Bloc. Even
> today these Masonic and Communist scars remain: the Czech Republic is
> the only post-communist country of Europe that still does not have a
> concordat with the Vatican. My hosts, Radim and Katarina, reflected
> ironically on how things make a full circle when people and movements
> are not of God: the Czech Republic is joining the European Union next
> year, and they are happy about it. The only problem is that they are
> trading the precious nationalism they worked so hard to gain for
> membership in the European club, which is wiping out national
> differences and customs!
>
> SIGNS OF THE CULTURE OF DEATH
>
> Since 1957 abortion has been legal, and when Communism fell the Czechs
> did not bother to change their laws, like the Poles did, and thus
> abortion is still legal on demand in this country up until the 12th
> week of pregnancy. In the case of risk to the life or health of the
> mother, abortion is legal until birth. For all practical purposes,
> then, there are no restrictions on abortion in the Czech Republic. The
> liberalization of the abortion law in 1986 caused the number of
> surgical abortions to skyrocket to 100,000 per year. The number hovers
> around 30,000 now, not counting chemical abortions.
>
> There is a creepy secularism and moral relativism that infects this
> land. During my visit I saw huge disgusting billboards showing the
> intimate apparel of a man and a woman strewn on a bedroom floor.
> Written across the top of these billboards were the words: "anywhere,
> anytime, with anyone." they were, of course, condom ads. Does it
> surprise you that the unwed birth rate increased from 8 percent to 20
> percent in the decade of the 90s? Likewise there was reduction of the
> actual number of marriages from 81,000 to 53,000 (a significant drop),
> and the fertility rate is perfectly abysmal at 1.13 children per
> woman, typical of the whole situation in Europe. I was also told that
> there are 10 IVF centers in this country with no laws to regulate in
> vitro fertilization, cloning, genetic manipulation and reproductive
> medicine.
>
> HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL
>
> Lest I paint a totally negative picture of this beautiful people, I
> must mention a few points of light emanating from this small country
> of 10 million. The first point of light, of course, is that HLI is
> there! Our affiliate is an organization known as Hnuti Pro Život
> (simply, the Pro-Life Movement). It was founded by a pro-life hero,
> Dr. Zdenek Hejl, in 1957 just after the Communists legalized abortion.
> Dr. Hejl almost miraculously kept the pro-life cause alive underground
> during all the years of Communism and thereafter. Dr. Hejl passed away
> four years ago, but I met his secretary, Mrs. Sylva Bernardova, who is
> a magnificent pro-lifer in her own right and who to this day gives
> pro-life talks to kids and NFP talks to young adults in marriage
> preparation.
>
> Hnuti Pro Život has an impressive record, even despite its battle
> scars. In 1968 they brought forth legislation to change the anti-life
> abortion law in their country, but the Communists stopped it. What
> courage! In 1985-86 they held a series of secret meetings and did a
> popular petition against abortion. In 1989 they started a secret
> pro-life newspaper and lobbied politicians to change the abortion law.
> They brought pro-life amendments to change the constitution after the
> 1991 revolution but were rejected by the new class of professionals
> who were in charge at that time. They have also initiated vast
> letter-writing campaigns against sex ed in the schools and the RU-486
> death pill and held pilgrimages, marches and publicity campaigns in
> defense of life. They are a marvelous group.
>
> Because of its totally Catholic stance on all the life issues, Hnuti
> Pro Život finds it tough to work with other pro-life groups in
> the country-groups that advocate birth control in their crisis
> pregnancy centers and endorse sex ed in the schools. The leader of one
> of these groups even has a CPC located in an in vitro fertilization
> clinic and sees nothing wrong with it.
>
> My new friends Radim and Katarina are now the driving forces behind
> Hnuti Pro Život, and Mrs. Bernardova is thankful for their energy
> and enthusiasm. They have four young children, yet they somehow manage
> to publish a regular newsletter, organize educational campaigns and
> "Helpers" prayer vigils, and they are even hoping to open up a fully
> Catholic crisis pregnancy center soon. They are HLI to the core!
> During my visit I also made the acquaintance of Dr. František
> Matušina who had met Fr. Marx in Czechoslovakia, just after the
> fall of Communism, and was instrumental in setting up the first HLI
> group which is now replaced with Hnuti Pro Život. Dr.
> Matušina has been extremely faithful to the HLI mission over many
> years and is a great friend of HLI.
>
> A second point of light is Dr. Jiri Karas, the only fully pro-life
> member of Parliament. He is very clear on the life issues and recently
> proposed measures to the Parliament on limiting abortion, which was
> brought up for discussion the day after I arrived in the country.
> Needless to say, the Parliament decided not to do anything about the
> country's abortion law, citing as their main reason the United Nations
> conventions that allow a woman to decide the size of her family. Their
> position takes an analagous stance, for example, to refusing to object
> to Hitler killing Jews in concentration camps because the totally
> immoral Nuremburg laws said it was okay. We will pray for Dr. Karas
> and his lone attempts to change the culture of death into the culture
> of life.
>
> HOLINESS SHINING THROUGH THE ATHEISM
>
> On my last day in Prague I had the privilege of praying in the two
> most beautiful shrines in the Czech Republic: St. Vitus Cathedral and
> the Infant of Prague shrine. Radim, Katarina and I took a walk across
> the famous Charles Bridge where St. John Nepomucen was martyred, and
> we walked up the hill to the famous picturesque Cathedral of St.
> Vitus. For those not familiar with the name, St. John Nepomucen was
> the 14th century priest who is invoked as the patron saint of the seal
> of the confessional. As the story goes, the wicked King Wenceslaus IV
> was terribly jealous of his wife and suspected her of immorality.
> After she went to confession to St. John Nepomucen, the king made
> every attempt to get the priest to break the seal of the confessional
> and reveal to him what she told him in confession. St. John refused.
> He was tortured with fire by the King's executioners, his body tied
> into a circle (feet to head) and was gagged, then finally thrown off
> the Charles Bridge to drown. For me, as a priest, it was a powerful
> moment to stand in front of his statue there on the bridge and pledge
> again my absolute commitment to maintaining the sacred seal of the
> Sacrament of Confession. It is a commitment unto death.
>
> St. Vitus Cathedral is undoubtedly one of the most magnificent
> churches in Christendom. It is a Gothic-style cathedral perched on the
> highest point of land in Prague, with the whole complex of government
> offices situated around and below it on the hill. It is quite symbolic
> in itself of how the Church should always be over the state as a moral
> authority. The tomb of St. Wenceslaus is located in a side chapel of
> the cathedral, with the stunning crown jewels of the Czech Republic in
> a compartment behind that locked with seven locks. The crown jewels
> contain not only a crown, but a jeweled scepter and a globe that the
> monarch used to hold in his hand as a symbol of his concern for all
> peoples. Our time of prayer in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel of the
> Cathedral was perhaps the pinnacle of my trip in every sense.
>
> Located on a slope of the hill just below the Cathedral, is the
> Carmelite Church with the beautiful and tender statuette of the
> grace-filled Infant of Prague (as the locals call Him). Most of us
> know that image, but few know the story behind it. This small wax
> statue was the work of an unknown Spanish artist in the 1500s and the
> pious possession of Maria Manrique de Lara, who married a Czech
> nobleman and brought the statuette to Prague in 1556. Her daughter
> gave it as a gift to the Carmelites in 1628. During the Thirty Years'
> War it was desecrated and thrown behind an altar until a pious priest
> named Fr. Cyril of Our Lord's Mother searched it out and found it in
> 1637. When he restored it to its niche, there were many extraordinary
> events attributed to it, and people immediately began once again to
> venerate the image of Christ. These miraculous events occurred at a
> time in Europe when the faith of people in the divinity of Jesus was
> growing cold. Single-handedly this beautiful little reminder of the
> simplicity and love of the Child Jesus has been a powerful means of
> returning many people to the Faith. Let us pray that the Infant of
> Prague will lead many more back to the Faith in this time of cultural
> and moral devastation.
>
> PRAYERS OF THANKSGIVING
>
> My time in the shrine was spent exclusively for you. I prayed to the
> Holy Infant of Prague for all of the HLI staff, board of directors,
> international leaders and especially for those of you who make this
> mission possible through your constant prayer and generosity. I spent
> a good long time thanking the Lord for giving me the privilege of
> being able to serve so exalted a mission as HLI's. I know that the
> good Lord will continue to bless our friends in the Czech Republic,
> and all of us, with the grace of perseverance in this most worthy
> cause -saving the lives of many of His precious infants.
>
>
>
> http://www.hli.org/pro-life_czech-republic.html
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
How short was the story? :-P
The Black Monk
> On 31 Oct 2004 09:56:04 -0800, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> Monk) wrote:
>
> >no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote in message news:<418449f8.1160390@news-server>...
> >> On 30 Oct 2004 07:35:20 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> >> Monk) wrote:
> >>
> >> >And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
> >> >will have sharia.
> >>
> >> You seem a bit confused buddy: Atheism is not actually the same as
> >> Islam. It means something else altogether. Look it up in a dictionary.
> >>
> >> Good luck,
> >> Jiri Pecka
> >
> >Use that mind of yours. I'll spell it out for you. Atheism = low
> >birth rate.
>
> If so, maybe you would like to read this:
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Vatican sex guide urges Catholics to do 'it' more often
> By Julian Coman
> (Filed: 31/10/2004)
>
> A Vatican-sanctioned sex guide is encouraging churchgoers to make love
> more often in an effort to offset "impotence and frigidity" and
> address papal concerns over declining birth-rates among Italian Roman
> Catholics.
>
> (Complete article at http://tinyurl.com/6osfy .)
Gee, all the Italian Roman Catholics I know have 5-6 kids. Probably
he's addressing the secularized society.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
> It's nothing to do with religion, silly: With affluence, yes.
Affluence has a lot to do with it. However relatively affluent Poland
has a higher birth rate than more secular, poorer Ukraine or Russia.
The USA's birth rate is among the highest in the industrialized world,
and it has the highest affluence (minor exeptions like Switzerland or
Luxembourg excepted).
The silliness is with the argument that religion and birth rate aren't
signifiantly related. From Utah to the Orthodox Jewish communities to
Latin America to western versus eastern Ukraine, higher level of
religion corresponds to higher birth rates. Check out the Russian and
Ukrainian baptist communities: 5-6 kids is the norm among them (in
comparison to 1 or 0 kids among many many secular Russians).
Honestly, your argument is comparable to saying that the sky is black
during the day. There are eclipses, from time to time but still...
BM
> Jiri Pecka
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> no-...@no-spam.com (Jiri Pecka) wrote in message news:<4184b7aa.29241609@news-server>...
>
>>On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 02:30:32 -0500, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
>><urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
..... Regarding the Czech language ........
>>>
>>>I understand that you also have to learn to do without vowels. ;)
>>>How does that sentence about putting ones fingers down ones
>>>throat go again? ;)
>>
>>The famous sentence is "strc prst skrz krk". :-)
>
> This of course exists in other languages as well.
> Once I had a collegue of the Yugoslavian origin, named Terkla, which
> was obviously already "weternized" name derived from the original word
> TRKL.
> There are in the Czech an probably in the other Slavic languages as
> well, many similar words, like: krkl, vrkl, smrkl, brnkl, cvrnkl, ....
It's just a matter of degree, and there's nothing (morally ;) or
otherwise) wrong with it, so please don't feel defensive.
The vowels which Czech has lost have all seemingly migrated up
to Finland, where they (so I am told,) miaw and yowl "like cats".
The Black Monk
> On 31 Oct 2004 10:07:19 -0800, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> Monk) wrote:
>
> >Actually, none at all. The market dictates to you what you think and
> >who you are.
>
> The "market" is my customers. I am finding it actually quite proper
> that they should dictate what I do for them, as I dictate to my own
> suppliers, too.
Right. That's survival. But I was talking about more insidious
effects...
> They certainly do not dictate what I think and who I
> am: I think freely, and I know who I am
Yes, yes. And Pavlov's dogs also "freely" salivated when the bells
rang (the first market specialists were Watson and other
ex-psychologists).
> - and I do like it that way. I
> doubt that you can say the same thing of yourself, otherwise you would
> not be spreading all this hateful shit around.
It is more contempt, than hatred. Though my tone was impolite, for
which I apologise.
> >You are enslaved by it. Your "choices" are merely the
> >work of the marketing experts, themselves part of the same system.
> >Any look into the empty souless eyes of the western bourgoueis tells
> >you that quite quickly.
>
> Oh now I can well understand your "crusade". Your true colour is now
> clearly shining through your black habit, and it is - no surprises -
> RED.
??? Lenin and his fellow ex law students and other such garbage were
thoroughly bourgeois:
http://www.berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_lib/1917_266.html
> I always suspected that there is no much difference between
> communists and religious fanatics - the same hateful ilk.
Actually the rows upon rows of McMansions in the USA and the rows upon
rows of Khrushchovki in the East demonstrate the same corrupted spirit
of both societies.
> > Did you hear about the Czech sheep all coming
> >to that fake store in the field? Poor lost sheep...
> >
> >
> > http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3070274
>
> What are you actually trying to prove by this article?
I understand that you guys are not conditioned to think much but you
ought to try it...
> In any case,
> interesting that you have chosen then most intelligent
> pro-free-market and secular publication today. I do commend on your
> choice. But what a pity you apparently don't read it most of it - as
> you should, from cover to cover. It will do you better than your
> bible.
Will it teach me that photos of men's and women's underwear are
symbols of freedom and liberation? BTW the ultimate end result of
this freedom was accurately predicted by Huxley's Brave New World.
> >> Isn't it funny how the bible bashers are so obsessed about cattle and
> >> pastures?
> >
> >Given the fact that the Biblical events occurred in a rural society
> >and context it's hardly surprising. Why does this surprise you?
>
> It does not actually. I just said it was "funny". (In the "ha ha"
> sense.)
Okay.
> I bet this is where you would like to return: to a 15th
> century feudal utopia where the church rules supreme over the souls of
> meek, docile, hard-working, god-loving, sheep-like peasants.
> And of course no free market under the tsar (or the commissar).
As opposed to frightened, meek, and _miserable_ cubicle-dwelling ofice
serfs driven like Tantalus to fulfill their insatiable desire for
whatever it is the marketing masters tell them they need?
> So pictoresque, so bucolic, and so naive.
Not really. I am blessed to have known my Ukrainian peasant
grandfather, whose childhood consisted of days toiling out in the
fields. The first one to complete the thirsd grade, he ended up
studying medicine in Munich, having a successful practice in the USA.
He was always surprised at how much happier people in the other world
were, despite hardships, disease, etc. No, Jiri, it is you who are
naive and disconnected. Ernst Junger was quite right:
"What they had done in their youth, and what for milleniums had been
man's vocation, joy, and pleasure - to ride a horse, to plow in the
morning in the steaming fields, to walk behind the oxen, to mow the
yellow grain in the blazing summer heat while streams of sweat poured
down the tanned body...all this, praised by poets since time
immemorial, was now past and gone. Joy in labor had disappeared.
How can one explain this trend toward a more colorless and shallow
life? Well, the work was easier, if less healthy, and it brought more
money, more leisure, and perhaps more entertainment. A day in the
country is long and hard. And yet the fruits of their present life
were worthless compared to a single coin of their former life: a rest
in the evening and a rural festivity. That they no longer knew the
old kind of happiness was obvious from the discontent which spread
over their features. Soon, dissatisfaction, prevailing over all their
moods, became their religion..."
> Yes, I am still finding it
> very funny. Although it is also a little bit sad that someone would
> still harbour such views in the 21st century.
That is certainly your feeling.
> >> It's cows at pasture one day, Lamb of God the other, and
> >> then they would all have us herded like sheep in their churches - and
> >> looked after a shepherd.
> >>
> >> Wow, now that's really some "freedom of choice": You are free to
> >> choose Jesus Christ today. (Or else, be damned!) :-)
> >
> >Sorry pal, Dostoyevsky already proved that Christianity = freedom.
>
> Sorry pal, he did not prove anything, he just wrote a few gloomy,
> depressing novels, obsessed about suicide, and as gloomy and
> depressing as Christianity itself.
Dostoyevsky was the greatest writer according to Freud, Nietzsche,
Camus (atheists btw, just not self-deluded ones), etc. But I guess
you prefer Mickey Mouse. But it is not surprising that you who fear
freedom, real freedom (not the freedom to choose what your corporate
masters programmed you to want) dismiss the guy. There is nothing
gloomy about Raskolnokov's redemption.
> No wonder you call yourself Black
> Monk: You have an obsessive and dark mind indeed.
Not really. But coming back to your Goebbels-like repetition of
gloomy etc. Christianity, you have still not explained how it is that
your Christ-free societies have more people killing themselves and
being depressed than in Christian societies. Your claims are simply
baseless, factfree, revealing perhaps more of your own idiosyncrasies
than any objective reality.
cheers,
BM
The Black Monk
> On 31 Oct 2004 10:11:59 -0800, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
> Monk) wrote:
>
>
> >> >Between 1961 and 1986 suicide rates in Quebec doubled, from
> >> >3.45 per 100,000 women and 10.9 per 100,000 men, to 9.72 per 100,000
> >> >women; 22.0 per 100,000 men. This corresponds exactly to the
> >> >secularization of Quebec's society. Currently Quebec is the least
> >> >church-going part of Canada. In 1998 - 99, Quebec had the highest
> >> >suicide rate in Canada - 21.3 per 100,000 people, In the rate for
> >> >Canada as a whole was 14 - 33.4 in Quebec
> >> >alone. In Japan 17.2 out of every 100,000 take their lives every year
> >>
> >> And the only thing that could possibly have caused an increase in
> >> suicide is a change in church attendance.
> >
>
> >Never said it was the only thing. But a highly likely factor.
>
> Nonsense. The data supplied is wholly inadequate for any conclusion
> to be made - except if one assumes the conclusion beforehand.
Yet another empty assertion.
> >> What an argument!
> >
>
> >You have yet to produce even this - an argument.
>
> For what? I am responding to your silly claims.
So you claim.
> >
> >> >
> >> >Highest mental illness rates in the world in the Americas and Europe:
> >>
> >>
>
> >> All of Scandinavia used to be known for high suicide rates. I
> >> remember being told by a nun that Denmark had a high rate because of
> >> socialism. She was unaware that Denmark did not have a socialist
> >> system, but after the introduction of a comprehensive welfare system
> >> here the suicide rate dropped; there may or may not have been a
> >> connection. That was during the same period that regular attendance at
> >> religious services practically disappeared; there may or may not have
> >> been a connection. Determining the cause of something is extremely
> >> difficult. You make way too many assumptions.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >http://www.cmhealth.org/docs/wg1_paper12.pdf
> >> >
> >> >The highest suicide rates in the world are in the secularized
> >> >post-soviet societies and in the West.
> >>
>
> >> The society was not secular under the Soviets?
> >
>
> >Of course, hence high suicide rates there now.
>
>
> You are really and truly claiming that the Soviet Union did not have a
> secular government, or that most people did not attend any church?
U R clueless.
> In
> any event I think you will find out that religion is on the increase
> in Russia and has been ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Sure.
> If, as you claim, suicides have increased in Russia,
Where did I claim this?
> it contradicts
> your argument rather than support it. The truth is, however, that no
> valid conclusions can be drawn on such little information.
...Because you claim. You criticize belief in Christ but support
belief in "thomas p.". LOL.
> >
> >> >As I said, I hope you are successful in burying your despair with
> >> >material pleasures.
> >>
>
> >> What despair are you talking about? What personal knowledge do you
> >> have of the person you are responding to? You do like to assume your
> >> conclusions don't you?
> >
>
> >Not really.
>
> You made rather large assumptions about a person you do not know.
Sure. I do it all the time.
> You made rather large assumptions about the causes of suicide.
Not really, given the mountain of evidence supporting that assertion,
zero evidence supporting your claims.
> Your
> entire argument is based on the assumption of your conclusion. People
> without religion (you assume) must be in despair. If, you assume, a
> secular society has an increase in suicide, it must be because it is a
> secular society.
Well, combine secularization with increased suicide rate. Add to that
high suicide rates in secular countries relative to religious ones.
Conclusions are quite clear. Your empty assertions are the ones that
don't stand up.
> Laughable!
That's certainly one way of dealing with treality that you find
unpleasant.
> >>
> >> >> how about you? OK, now you
> >> >> better go back to your bible, buddy. Please make sure you avoid
> >> >> looking at intimate men's and women's apparel, lest you not be lead
> >> >> into temptation. You will pray for me, won't you?
> >> >
>
> >> >Sure. And because you reject Christianity your great-grandchildren
> >> >will have sharia. But what do you care? You have your
> >> >self-indulgence. Enjoy it...
> >>
> >> Insults with no substantiation and lots of ill will.
> >
>
> >Birth rate and immigration rates are substantiation. It is you who
> >are incapable of offering anything to back up your empty words.
>
> It is you who are making all the claims. It is you who has not
> supported those claims except by mentioning a handful of statistics,
> which could hardly be considered the basis for any valid conclusions.
Based on your empty (as always) claims.
> I gave one example of the problems involved, which you, of course,
> ignored.
You provided no facts, but mentioned something a nun said to you once.
Back up your empty words with something substantial, if you can.
BM
Daniel Holdsworth
Monk) wrote:
>> A Vatican-sanctioned sex guide is encouraging churchgoers to make love
>> more often in an effort to offset "impotence and frigidity" and
>> address papal concerns over declining birth-rates among Italian Roman
>> Catholics.
>>
>> (Complete article at http://tinyurl.com/6osfy .)
>
>Gee, all the Italian Roman Catholics I know have 5-6 kids. Probably
>he's addressing the secularized society.
That's not quite what *he* says about to whom this publication is
aimed at. But of course you know better. And you know some Italians
who have 5-6 kids. ;-)
>Affluence has a lot to do with it. However relatively affluent Poland
>has a higher birth rate than more secular, poorer Ukraine or Russia.
>The USA's birth rate is among the highest in the industrialized world,
>and it has the highest affluence (minor exeptions like Switzerland or
>Luxembourg excepted).
I guess you forgot about the atheist (but not affluent) population of
China, where the birth rate has been so high that it is being forcibly
kept down by the government. I don't think you can attribute this to
religion.
>The silliness is with the argument that religion and birth rate aren't
>signifiantly related. From Utah to the Orthodox Jewish communities to
>Latin America to western versus eastern Ukraine, higher level of
>religion corresponds to higher birth rates. Check out the Russian and
>Ukrainian baptist communities: 5-6 kids is the norm among them (in
>comparison to 1 or 0 kids among many many secular Russians).
>Honestly, your argument is comparable to saying that the sky is black
>during the day. There are eclipses, from time to time but still...
I am not denying that religion can be a contributing factor, which is
obvious if it teaches believers to "procreate for the glory of god",
as long as they blindly believe in it. But with growing education and
affluence, people tend to discard such messages - as today's example
with Roman Catholics in Italy clearly shows.
The main point is, that whatever answer there may be for Europe to
reverse the trend of its declining population, it is not certainly not
in going backward in time. If you wanted to do that, you would have to
bomb the place back to feudalism, then you would have truly high birth
rates indeed - for a while.
Once a population is liberated from the mental shackles of religion,
then, like with communism, there is no way back. The society is
changing so fast, then in 150 years from now it is quite possible that
a Europe with its 50 million of happy, educated and civilized people
(many of them former muslims) will look back and wonder what the fuss
was all about.
Or maybe not. Maybe a demographic disaster looms. But in any case
religion is never the answer - religion is the problem.
Jiri Pecka
Jiri Pecka
Monk) wrote:
<I am cutting the long preachy garbage, as I really don't have the
time; so I better get to the main point>
Even if it was true that atheism causes a high suicide rate, you have
not provided any proof of it, merely an indication of a possible
correlation. (At the same time, I note that you have rejected a
similar correlation which I have provided about affluence and birth
rate which you have found inconvenient.)
In any case, I consider such "proofs" to be entirely beside the point:
Your main point appears to be that you believe that religion, in
particular Christianity, is the "solution". My point is that you
can't put back people who have liberated themselves from the shackles
of a religion back to the same mental prison again. Religion is one of
the major *causes* of humanity problems, not a solution. I do not
think that suicide can be "cured" by forcing people to believe fairy
tales - but even if this was true, I don't think that this would be
the right long-term cure.
Jiri Pecka
Jiri Pecka
Holdsworth) wrote:
Apologies for the wrong name in the heading of this post. I used this
computer after someone else did (who of course forgot to put my name
back... :-))
Jiri Pecka