Atheists Are Wrong
EGordon873
Yes, atheists are wrong, but isn't it interesting that they are so adamant
about their convictions? A lot of teenagers follow the atheist dogma because
they see it as a means to rebel against authority. I like what one girl said
during an interview after her and some others survived a structural fire. She
said:
We were all praying. Not to a god or anything, but just kind of for ourselves.
It's easy to be an atheist when you don't need God. Of course, God will let
you burn to death. He does it all the time. It's just interesting how
atheists really aren't talking about God at all when they deny His existence.
What they are really talking about is you. They are saying: "I don't like you,
and I'm different than you."
They don't really have the foggiest whether God exists or not, and somehow I
get the feeling that God is not shocked or offended by their statements.
Afterall, He has to put up with what the Christians say about Him, too.
Now, you ask, how can I be so sure that there is a God. I will tell you that I
have a hard time defining God, so I can't really tell you if He exists. We all
try to hard to determine if God exists without first defining what God is.
If you ask me, is God the non-physical, Will that created the universe. I
would say , yes, God exists. If you ask me if God is a person, I would be hard
pressed to prove it. God has never shown me anger, jealousy, or any other
emotion. He has never expressed an opinion to me, nor has he ever told me he
didn't like something. Though he did give me a religion called Veridicanism,
but the most you can get from it is that he has a preference for reality and
truth. So, if He is a person, I don't know how to define him.
When I think about my belief in God. I realize that He is a fundamental part
of my psychology. When I am alone, I feel as if there is something observing
me. All the time, and everywhere. It's not a strong obsession, and it doesn't
keep me from doing socially unacceptable things when I am alone, but I realize
that the feeling is always there. I wonder if it is real, or simply a part of
my development as a child.
Is God merely my mother? (help us all). If I didn't have this feeling of
otherness, would I believe in God? Is it a gift or a delusion? I understand
suffering in the world; I understand why God would not prove Himself to His
creation, I understand the logical arguments for God's existence, I have seen
miracles and strange phenomena, but those don't do it for me. I believe in God
becuase of this life-long feeling I have had that I am never alone.
I must explore the psychology of that feeling. I must know the truth. I must
go to God once again, even after He gave me an argument for the soul and life
after death, even after He gave me an argument for his existence, even after He
gave me a religion to live by. I have to go to Him again with doubts. I have
to go to Him and say that none of those things are sufficient. I must ask why
I feel Him near me. I must battle the atheist that is still living in me. The
thing that rises from the mud every now and again to cause me disease.
Will this be the end of it? If I find that there is no God, only a
psychological delusion from infancy, will I be able to accept that. Yes, of
course. But I would never reveal it to those who have depended on me for their
faith. Unlike the atheists in the NG, I know the horrible conclusions of a
life without God. I know what it does to the mind of a man to be alone in the
universe.
Can anyone help me with this?
Ed Gordon
Stephen DeVoy
Well, Gordon, personally, I don't want to help you with this. You
demonstrate such a lack of concern and understanding for we atheists that I
cannot fathom why you would expect that any of us would want to help you.
I've been an atheist, or more precisely a non-theist, for most of my life.
Contrary to your assertions, being an atheist wasn't a choice nor was it an
attempt to rebel. For me, not believing in the existence of god was
obviously more rational than believing in spooky stuff like souls, god,
gods, or an intelligent universe.
You begin your message with many assertions about god. For example, you
state "Of course, God will let you burn to death. He does it all the time."
Later you state that you don't know if god exists. Then you contradict your
self to say that you believe that he does.
Your reason and logic so confounded as it is, I find it no surprise that you
need help. May I suggest a few courses in philosophy?
Steve DeVoy
Barry Laderman
>
> SONNET
>
>Lift not the painted veil which those who live
>Call life: though unreal shapes be pictured there,
>And it but mimic all we would believe
>With colors idly spread -- behind, lurk Fear
>And Hope, twin Destinies; who ever weave
>Their shadows o'er the chasm, sightless and drear.
>I knew one who had lifted it -- he sought,
>For his lost heart was tender, things to love,
>But found them not, alas! Nor was there aught
>The world contains, the which he could approve.
>Through the unheeding many he did move,
>A splendor among shadow, a bright blot
>Upon this gloomy scene, a Spirit that strove
>For truth, and like the Preacher found it not.
>
>
Bravo! Which Shelley wrote this?
Chris Hamilton
egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
< snip >
>Will this be the end of it? If I find that there is no God, only a
>psychological delusion from infancy, will I be able to accept that. Yes, of
>course. But I would never reveal it to those who have depended on me for their
>faith. Unlike the atheists in the NG, I know the horrible conclusions of a
>life without God. I know what it does to the mind of a man to be alone in the
>universe.
What horrible conclusions? I'm not alone in the universe. I've got friends
and family, and myself to walk with me.
Chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Hamilton -- aa# 1186
Tone...@erols.com
http://www.serve.com/cowpb/chamilton.html
EGordon873
>What horrible conclusions? I'm not alone in the universe. I've got friends
and family, and myself to walk with me.
You've got to be kidding me. You can't get in anyone's head. You only know
the ficade that the put on. And no one can ever really know you. You are
utterly alone in this world. You can't even be sure you are not dreaming.
Perhaps you and I do not want the same things out of life. What you say in the
end is true. You have yourself to walk with, but unless you are insane,
yourself cannot alleviate loneliness. But nevertheless, whatever works for you
is fine by me. If there is no God, I am utterly alone. That's all I can say
for sure.
Ed
Jeff Wilson
On 23 Jun 1998 23:42:09 GMT, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
>
>Will this be the end of it? If I find that there is no God, only a
>psychological delusion from infancy, will I be able to accept that. Yes, of
>course. But I would never reveal it to those who have depended on me for their
>faith. Unlike the atheists in the NG, I know the horrible conclusions of a
>life without God. I know what it does to the mind of a man to be alone in the
>universe.
So are you saying warm falsehood is better than cold
intellectual honesty? Or as Shelley put the dilemma (the
"Preacher" is Ecclesiastes):
SONNET
--
Please remove the two capital X's from my e-mail address before replying via e-mail.
(They are an attempt to thwart unsolicited commercial mail.)
CyberDave
EGordon873 wrote in message
<199806232342...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Yes, atheists are wrong, but isn't it interesting that they are so adamant
>about their convictions? A lot of teenagers follow the atheist dogma
because
>they see it as a means to rebel against authority.
Says you. How would you possibly know why someone is an atheist.
I like what one girl said
>during an interview after her and some others survived a structural fire.
She
>said:
>
>We were all praying. Not to a god or anything, but just kind of for
ourselves.
People often pray out of habit. It is also very easy to misinterpret what
one says on the spur of the moment.
>It's easy to be an atheist when you don't need God.
Again, how would you possibly know?
Of course, God will let
>you burn to death. He does it all the time. It's just interesting how
>atheists really aren't talking about God at all when they deny His
existence.
>What they are really talking about is you. They are saying: "I don't like
you,
>and I'm different than you."
I don't know where you got that from. The only way I could explain it is
psychological projection; you subconciously feel guilty about hating
atheists and you attempt to project this prejudiced disposition on those you
disagree with. Classic textbook case.
>They don't really have the foggiest whether God exists or not, and somehow
I
>get the feeling that God is not shocked or offended by their statements.
>Afterall, He has to put up with what the Christians say about Him, too.
Actually we have a very good idea whether He exists or not. This same idea
we have about the existence of dragons and medusae. A conclusion easily
reached by a rational mind.
>Now, you ask, how can I be so sure that there is a God. I will tell you
that I
>have a hard time defining God, so I can't really tell you if He exists. We
all
>try to hard to determine if God exists without first defining what God is.
The God mentioned in the Bible, how about that? Why would you believe in
something you don't can't even define. That's like believing in a Zurple.
What's a zurple, you ask?
I dunno...
>If you ask me, is God the non-physical, Will that created the universe. I
>would say , yes, God exists. If you ask me if God is a person, I would be
hard
>pressed to prove it. God has never shown me anger, jealousy, or any other
>emotion. He has never expressed an opinion to me, nor has he ever told me
he
>didn't like something. Though he did give me a religion called
Veridicanism,
>but the most you can get from it is that he has a preference for reality
and
>truth. So, if He is a person, I don't know how to define him.
Why can't this 'will' just be a natural phenomenon, like all we know
(science) indicates? Why must it be some ridiculous 'divine' power? You
seem to stretch odd interpretations from non-facts, although you aren't the
only one.
>When I think about my belief in God. I realize that He is a fundamental
part
>of my psychology. When I am alone, I feel as if there is something
observing
>me. All the time, and everywhere. It's not a strong obsession, and it
doesn't
>keep me from doing socially unacceptable things when I am alone, but I
realize
>that the feeling is always there. I wonder if it is real, or simply a part
of
>my development as a child.
I feel that too. It can be psychologically attributed to human tendencies;
guilt, paranoia, the superego's intervention. To interpret that as 'God' is
quite a stretch. I would venture to say most people feel it, and a lot
probably don't notice it. Just a lack of introspection; nothing serious.
>Is God merely my mother? (help us all). If I didn't have this feeling of
>otherness, would I believe in God? Is it a gift or a delusion? I
understand
>suffering in the world; I understand why God would not prove Himself to His
>creation, I understand the logical arguments for God's existence, I have
seen
>miracles and strange phenomena, but those don't do it for me. I believe in
God
>becuase of this life-long feeling I have had that I am never alone.
Logical arguments for God's existence? Give me one and I will eat a pound
of glass.
But seriously, I know the feeling your talking about. Don't commit yourself
to an unadmirable cause just because of it. I feel it too, I think a lot
of people do. I had never thought of it as God, but as I said there are
many psychological explanations for it. if that is your only reason, maybe
it isn't worth it.
>I must explore the psychology of that feeling. I must know the truth. I
must
>go to God once again, even after He gave me an argument for the soul and
life
>after death, even after He gave me an argument for his existence, even
after He
>gave me a religion to live by. I have to go to Him again with doubts. I
have
>to go to Him and say that none of those things are sufficient. I must ask
why
>I feel Him near me. I must battle the atheist that is still living in me.
The
>thing that rises from the mud every now and again to cause me disease.
Why don't you give credit to yourself and not an entity with only an alleged
existence?
If I interpret your metaphors correctly (I sure hope they're metaphors) you
say you have doubts about God. Don't allow yourself to linger in the
'maybe' column; it will only cause you more anxiety. I am happy with my
atheist standing because there are no flaws in it. No holes, no
contradictions, no assumptions. The only Disease you are feeling is that of
'God.' 'He' is making you doubt Him. Come to the Dark side, Luke.
MWAHAHA!!
>Will this be the end of it? If I find that there is no God, only a
>psychological delusion from infancy, will I be able to accept that. Yes,
of
>course. But I would never reveal it to those who have depended on me for
their
>faith. Unlike the atheists in the NG, I know the horrible conclusions of a
>life without God. I know what it does to the mind of a man to be alone in
the
>universe.
Think of it as a beginning. The beginning of freedom from centuries of
lies, and a swiss-cheese belief system. You will have a solid foundation
for logic and reasoning for once. Who depends on you for their faith?
Certainly no one of too much faith, otherwise 'God' would be able to support
them. If we are so ignorant to the conclusions of a life without God, tell
us. Indulge us. Our lives are more that any theist could imagine. Freedom
from axiety caused by condradictions in faith. Freedom from guilt caused by
the atrocities of religion. An open mind. The denial of these things is
the horrible conclusion of a live WITH God. We aren't alone in the
universe. You don't lose the apparent presence of the rest of the world.
>Can anyone help me with this?
I certainly hope so. Please think about what I had to say.
>Ed Gordon
Rev. CyberDave Free person #1157
Chris Hamilton
Chris H. wrote:
>>What horrible conclusions? I'm not alone in the universe. I've got friends
>and family, and myself to walk with me.
Ed wrote:
>You've got to be kidding me. You can't get in anyone's head. You only know
>the ficade that the put on. And no one can ever really know you.
I'm only speaking for myself. I like myself and I enjoy my own company. No
one knows me like me, but sometimes others see things in me that I didn't, so
I try to learn from that. And of course I put on a facade. EVERYONE does, to
some degree.
>You are utterly alone in this world.
Not utterly. If you like yourself, you've always got that.
>You can't even be sure you are not dreaming.
Uh, I'm pretty sure I'm not ...
>Perhaps you and I do not want the same things out of life. What you say in the
>end is true. You have yourself to walk with, but unless you are insane,
>yourself cannot alleviate loneliness.
Well sure, everyone needs companionship. But a person who can like themselves
and depend on themselves for things is not insane. In fact I think they are
more likely to better in personal interactions because they won't drain other
people so heavily for the emotional things they need (oh oh I think I'm about
to rant about my ex- here ... )
> But nevertheless, whatever works for you is fine by me.
Yes - I like that!
> If there is no God, I am utterly alone. That's all I can say for sure.
No, you're not - at worst you've got UseNet with a gazillion people to talk
to, good bad and ugly. At best you've got friends to talk to and interact
with. :-)
You don't need an imaginary playmate for that.
Stephen Knight
On 23 Jun 1998 23:42:09 GMT, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
Snip the fucking piece of shit rant.
For those of you not familiar with EGordon, Ed, The Veridican, he
is a troll of the sickest kind. Don't be fooled by his smooth psycho
babble.
Some quotes from a couple of his original posts to a.a..
11/29/97 " Atheists are Bad"
"nothing wrong with exterminating the atheist"
12/2/97 "Veridican Solution to Atheism"
"we must exterminate the atheist wherever he is found and imprison
Christians who produce such atheists"
"use them in organ farms"
This is only scratching the surface. He is much worse. Check
dejanews before you decide talk to this creep.
Steve Knight #855
Michelle Malkin
"Barry Laderman" <barry.l...@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>> SONNET
>>
>>Lift not the painted veil which those who live
>>Call life: though unreal shapes be pictured there,
>>And it but mimic all we would believe
>>With colors idly spread -- behind, lurk Fear
>>And Hope, twin Destinies; who ever weave
>>Their shadows o'er the chasm, sightless and drear.
>>I knew one who had lifted it -- he sought,
>>For his lost heart was tender, things to love,
>>But found them not, alas! Nor was there aught
>>The world contains, the which he could approve.
>>Through the unheeding many he did move,
>>A splendor among shadow, a bright blot
>>Upon this gloomy scene, a Spirit that strove
>>For truth, and like the Preacher found it not.
>>
>>
Poicy
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Mickey (Michelle Malkin)
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list #1
unnumbered member of the EAC
Rev Mick of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am (ULC Minister #3)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
I know of no book which has been a source of brutality and sadistic conduct,
both public and private,that compares with the Bible - Lord Paget
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Unasked for e-mail advertisements will be deleted unread.
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
erikc
On 23 Jun 1998 23:42:09 GMT
-- origin: alt.atheism:
>|Yes, atheists are wrong, but isn't it interesting that they are so adamant
>|about their convictions? A lot of teenagers follow the atheist dogma because
>|during an interview after her and some others survived a structural fire. She
>|said:
>|
>|We were all praying. Not to a god or anything, but just kind of for ourselves.
>|
>|you burn to death. He does it all the time. It's just interesting how
>|atheists really aren't talking about God at all when they deny His existence.
>|What they are really talking about is you. They are saying: "I don't like you,
>|and I'm different than you."
>|
>|get the feeling that God is not shocked or offended by their statements.
>|Afterall, He has to put up with what the Christians say about Him, too.
>|
>|have a hard time defining God, so I can't really tell you if He exists. We all
>|try to hard to determine if God exists without first defining what God is.
>|
>|would say , yes, God exists. If you ask me if God is a person, I would be hard
>|pressed to prove it. God has never shown me anger, jealousy, or any other
>|emotion. He has never expressed an opinion to me, nor has he ever told me he
>|didn't like something. Though he did give me a religion called Veridicanism,
>|but the most you can get from it is that he has a preference for reality and
>|truth. So, if He is a person, I don't know how to define him.
>|
>|of my psychology. When I am alone, I feel as if there is something observing
>|me. All the time, and everywhere. It's not a strong obsession, and it doesn't
>|keep me from doing socially unacceptable things when I am alone, but I realize
>|that the feeling is always there. I wonder if it is real, or simply a part of
>|my development as a child.
>|
>|otherness, would I believe in God? Is it a gift or a delusion? I understand
>|suffering in the world; I understand why God would not prove Himself to His
>|creation, I understand the logical arguments for God's existence, I have seen
>|miracles and strange phenomena, but those don't do it for me. I believe in God
>|becuase of this life-long feeling I have had that I am never alone.
>|
>|go to God once again, even after He gave me an argument for the soul and life
>|after death, even after He gave me an argument for his existence, even after He
>|gave me a religion to live by. I have to go to Him again with doubts. I have
>|to go to Him and say that none of those things are sufficient. I must ask why
>|I feel Him near me. I must battle the atheist that is still living in me. The
>|thing that rises from the mud every now and again to cause me disease.
>|
>|psychological delusion from infancy, will I be able to accept that. Yes, of
>|course. But I would never reveal it to those who have depended on me for their
>|faith. Unlike the atheists in the NG, I know the horrible conclusions of a
>|life without God. I know what it does to the mind of a man to be alone in the
>|universe.
>|
>|
Yeah. It's all crap.
There just isn't any evidence for a god or gods. Period.
Erikc (WA #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
| "The Truth against the World."
| -- Bardic Motto
bcde...@hotmail.com
egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
>
> Yes, atheists are wrong, but isn't it interesting that they are so adamant
> about their convictions?
Hi and hail. Some are, sum ain't...
>
> It's easy to be an atheist when you don't need God. It's just interesting how
> atheists really aren't talking about God at all when they deny His existence.
> What they are really talking about is you. They are saying: "I don't like
you, and I'm different than you."
> They don't really have the foggiest whether God exists or not, and somehow I
> get the feeling that God is not shocked or offended by their statements.
God doesn't mind because he ISN'T THERE, YOU M*&%N!
> Now, you ask, how can I be so sure that there is a God. I will tell you that
I have a hard time defining God, so I can't really tell you if He exists. We
all
> try to hard to determine if God exists without first defining what God is.
>
> If you ask me, is God the non-physical, Will that created the universe. I
> would say , yes, God exists..... God has never shown me anger, jealousy, or
any other
> emotion..... Though he did give me a religion called Veridicanism,
> but the most you can get from it is that he has a preference for reality and
> truth.
> When I think about my belief in God. I realize that He is a fundamental part
> of my psychology. When I am alone, I feel as if there is something observing
> me. All the time, and everywhere.
You are obviously paranoid, my child.....
It's not a strong obsession, and it doesn't
> keep me from doing socially unacceptable things when I am alone, but I realize
> that the feeling is always there. I wonder if it is real, or simply a part of
> my development as a child.
It's no longer unacceptable, and no, you won't go blind or crazy, either...
> Is God merely my mother? (help us all). If I didn't have this feeling of
> otherness, would I believe in God? Is it a gift or a delusion? I understand
> suffering in the world; I understand why God would not prove Himself to His
> creation, I understand the logical arguments for God's existence, I have seen
> miracles and strange phenomena, but those don't do it for me. I believe in
God
> becuase of this life-long feeling I have had that I am never alone.
Schizoid? Hear voices? Twins, separated at birth???
> I must explore the psychology of that feeling. I must know the truth. I must
> go to God once again,.............(snip)..................... I have
> to go to Him and say that none of those things are sufficient. I must ask why
> I feel Him near me. I must battle the atheist that is still living in me. The
> thing that rises from the mud every now and again to cause me disease.
You must mean the other guy, I'm Playdough(tm).. See Other posts by me...
> Will this be the end of it? If I find that there is no God, only a
> psychological delusion from infancy, will I be able to accept that. Yes, of
> course. But I would never reveal it to those who have depended on me for
their
> faith. Unlike the atheists in the NG, I know the horrible conclusions of a
> life without God. I know what it does to the mind of a man to be alone in the
> universe.
Too late, your cranium's fried. A man is not alone unless he chooses to be,
mankind may not be alone either. You may be our 'first contact',....
> Can anyone help me with this?
Zoloft, Paxil, Lithium, Depacote, Thorazine, Librium, restraints....
> Ed Gordon
>
Did the kids ever call you 'flash', back when you were young?? Bunch666
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Andrew Berry
In article <199806240103...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, EGordon873
<URL:mailto:egord...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> If there is no God, I am utterly alone. That's all I can say for
> sure.
And there we have the ultimate reason for believing in god. If it makes
you feel better to believe that god exists then that's great, and I
won't even think about objecting. Just please don't try and persuade us
to go along with your little fantasy.
Most of us here have "come to terms" with being apart from your god,
and are just making the most of our lives with friends and family. We
don't _need_ a god to provide comfort, but if you do then most of us
will have no problem with that.
Cheers,
--
Andrew Berry (and...@metallinks.com), atheist #1141
http://www.metallinks.com/
Don't take your failures to heart
advers@ry
There were some interesting points made here and I won't dwell on most of
them. I do find a recurring theme in many discussions regarding atheism though and
thought I'd post my personal viewpoint...
There is this pervasive idea that a universe without a god or deity of some
sort is obscene and horrific. Further, that a universe without such a prime force
must be futile and pointless. And still further, that a universe without a point
or purpose would be truly the worst possible scenario and not worth living in.
Now, I happen to believe that the last case is the actuality, you may disagree
but that is not the point in my argument. In my opinion, the universe exists
without any purpose per se. This I find wonderful. In fact, the inherent
purposelessness of the universe is part of it's greatest beauty. That simple (ish
;) rules can produce such marvelous diversity and truly joyous complexity without
any need for design or cognition at all makes me feel that we are witnessing a
great thing. So what that it has no purpose? It is immaterial to my enjoyment of
it. That there is pain and suffering is undeniable but that is not reason enough to
condemn the entirety of the universe for the manner in which we experience it.
ty,
advers@ry
EGordon873
Oh, come now, steve. You know that in the past I was trolling for fun. But
now I am here to learn from you all. You shouldn't take things so seriously
and, really, is saving my old posts really worth it?
Ed
EGordon873
Erik wrote:
>Yeah. It's all crap. There just isn't any evidence for a god or gods.
Period.
Unfortunately, your simplistic view of the world fails to persuade me. There
seems to be a great deal of evidence, as far as I am concerned. For me, I see
watches all over the ground, I just can't find the watchmaker. Evidence is not
a problem, but evidence isn't proof, is it?
Ed
EGordon873
Mr. DeVoy wrote:
>I cannot fathom why you would expect that any of us would want to help you.
Because I keep hearing how atheists are so much more moral than Christians.
>Contrary to your assertions, being an atheist wasn't a choice nor was it an
attempt to rebel. For me, not believing in the existence of god was obviously
more rational than believing in spooky stuff like souls, god, gods, or an
intelligent universe.
Why is it so important to be rational?
Ed
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <199806232342...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
;Yes, atheists are wrong, but isn't it interesting that they are so adamant
And yet atheists have more proof to support their view of the universe than
any theist does. How do you conclude they're wrong? Because they're not in
line with *your* "faith". Hello, troll.
;What they are really talking about is you. They are saying: "I don't like you,
;and I'm different than you."
Sorry, sir. I'm far beyond being a rebellious teenager. I'm quite the grownup
now, with a wife and children, a mortgage, two cars, etc. Rebellion isn't what
it's about. It's rationality, intellect, knowledge and putting aside childish
bogeymen in favor of realism.
;They don't really have the foggiest whether God exists or not, and somehow I
;get the feeling that God is not shocked or offended by their statements.
I'm sure Buddha isn't bothered by your lack of belief. Nor is Odin (though
he'll be happy to let Hela get her hands on you at Ragnarok). But, I
digress...
;Afterall, He has to put up with what the Christians say about Him, too.
A nugget of truth!
;If you ask me, is God the non-physical, Will that created the universe. I
He's The Force? Does he permiate all things and tie them together too? Does he
have a Dark Side?
;pressed to prove it. God has never shown me anger, jealousy, or any other
;emotion. He has never expressed an opinion to me, nor has he ever told me he
Are you being selective about your own scriptures? He's said he's a jealous
god, an angry god, a god of fire and brimstone. Doesn't your mythology say
that he wiped out the entire world with a flood in a fit of anger? Didn't he
repent for his own evils once or twice? Didn't he kill one of his own priests
for tripping and touching the Ark, in your mythology?
As for opinions, how much more opinionated can you be than to say, "Follow me
or I'll send you to hell for all eternity"? You're being quite loopy here.
;didn't like something. Though he did give me a religion called Veridicanism,
Ah! I see! So, you're not quite an xtian, not quite an atheist. More like an
agnostic. Now I understand where you're coming from. I still don't believe
but, fortunately, you're not trying to convert me (according to the 12 tenets
of the Veridican faith).
Mise le meas,
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------+
| Darryl L. Pierce, Atheist #1142 | "Those not shocked by quantum |
| Resource Solutions, Int'l @ IBM/RTP | theory have not understood it." |
| (919) 254-4583 (919) 547-7177 | Neils Bohr |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------+
| This message reflects *MY* opinion and not that of my employer. |
| Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day |
| storage expense to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email. |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------+
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <199806240103...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
;You've got to be kidding me. You can't get in anyone's head. You only know
Why would this be a "problem"? How much more intimate and personal do you need
to be with everyone? My wife and I are very emotionally and intellectually
intimate. I'm sure I don't know everything about her psyche, nor her mine, but
would anyone really *want* that? Anyone who was emotionally stable, that is?
;utterly alone in this world. You can't even be sure you are not dreaming.
Nor can you be sure using religion as a crutch...
;end is true. You have yourself to walk with, but unless you are insane,
;yourself cannot alleviate loneliness. But nevertheless, whatever works for you
;is fine by me. If there is no God, I am utterly alone. That's all I can say
;for sure.
You're going against your religion by trying to convert here.
Why do you consider not having a Gawd being "alone" or "lonely"? Why is being
an individual, without a belief in some supernatural being invading my
privacy, a bad thing to you? Why is being without your Gawd the same as being
"insane"? I know quite a few lucid, sane individuals who have no need for or
want of a supernatural being in their lives. I also know quite a few
whack-jobs who depend on a supernatural Gawd to justify their every action as
his "will".
Our lack of belief is fine by you? Then please go away, this is alt.ATHEISM.
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <6mpkt9$4ut$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, tone...@erols.com (Chris Hamilton) wrote:
;No, you're not - at worst you've got UseNet with a gazillion people to talk
;with. :-)
Sure are alot of bads and uglies, though. I'm sure glad for the goods though.
=)
;You don't need an imaginary playmate for that.
I still have an imaginary playmate. Her name is Monique and she's quite a good
dancer... =)
EGordon873
>They are saying: "I don't like you, and I'm different than you."
>God doesn't mind because he ISN'T THERE, YOU M*&%N!
I think you have made my point
>I feel as if there is something observing me. All the time, and everywhere.
>You are obviously paranoid, my child....
Actually, it is not paranoia. I don't feel that the presence wants to hurt me.
Paranoid persons usually are insecure and have a great deal of anxiety. I
would tend to feel that this is more of a dissasociaton. That is, assuming it
is not God.
>It's no longer unacceptable, and no, you won't go blind or crazy, either...
Oh, yeah, masturbation, of course, but I was actually thinking about picking my
nose. Thanks for your input just the same, though.
>Schizoid? Hear voices? Twins, separated at birth???
Again, schizoid personalities tend to be withdrawn and antisocial. So, I don't
think it is that, but your attempts at psychological assesments are
encouraging. I think you simply have a problem with definitions. I don't
actually hear voices so I don't think I am psychotic, and I don't have a twin.
>I must explore the psychology of that feeling. I must know the truth. I must
go to God once again,.............(snip)..................... I have to go to
Him and say that none of those things are sufficient.
This is interesting. If I tried to do that "snip" thing, it would take me
longer than what I actually had typed in there to begin with. You have
painstakingly removed my reference to the arguments God has given me for the
soul, His existence, and the religion of Veridicanism that He gave me. Why
would you snip all that, when you have left everything else? I can imagine
that those parts threaten your sense of self-worth. They intimidate you.
Perhaps this is at the root of your atheism. Perhaps atheism allows you to put
on the lab coat and be smarter and more powerful than the "majority" who
believe in God.
>Zoloft, Paxil, Lithium, Depacote, Thorazine, Librium, restraints....
I see you have some experience here. I find that interesting as well.
>Did the kids ever call you 'flash', back when you were young??
Actually, they still do. It's better than a guy I know who's last name is
Gorton. He always got fish jokes. At least I get to be a super hero.
Look, I told you that everything else aside, I believe in God primarily for a
sense of another that I seem to have. I am willing to explore the psychology
of that. Why don't you tell me why you are an atheist.
Ed Gordon
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <35904d0d...@news.supernews.com>, Xjmw...@hooked.netX (Jeff Wilson) wrote:
;So are you saying warm falsehood is better than cold
;"Preacher" is Ecclesiastes):
My wife's grandmother has had two major strokes and a series of minor strokes.
She's convinced her husband (dead 20 years) is still alive and coming to visit
her, everytime we see her in the nursing home. I guess, for the incapacitated,
a fantasy is better than reality. Breaks my heart, though...
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <YwYj1.98$Vz3.7...@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca>, "CyberDave" <cain...@escape.ca> wrote:
;The God mentioned in the Bible, how about that? Why would you believe in
;something you don't can't even define. That's like believing in a Zurple.
;What's a zurple, you ask?
;I dunno...
Um... Take a look at Dr. Seuss's "ABC" book. I think it's in there under 'Z'.
=)
Pioneer
> Yes, atheists are wrong, but isn't it interesting that they are so adamant
> about their convictions?
But not nearly as adamant as the average theist...
<snip>
Now, you ask, how can I be so sure that there is a God. I will tell you that I
> have a hard time defining God, so I can't really tell you if He exists.
First you say that atheists are wrong in not believing in any gods, then
you say that you cannot really tell if any gods exist.
See the problem here? It's a fundamental contradiction. You would have
been much better by simply admitting that you *think* atheists are wrong,
not dogmatically asserting that they are. You would have been much better
admitting that, since you cannot tell if any gods exist, then there is
nothing so odd about being adamant in not seeing any reason to believe.
<snip>
> Can anyone help me with this?
Yes: work on your logic and fight your dogmatism
--
Austin Cline: Publicity Coordinator, Campus Freethought Alliance
Regional Director, Council for Secular Humanism
Home: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/2850/
Secular Humanism in OH & PA: http://www.geocities.com/~shiwpa/
Council for Secular Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org/
Agnosticism/Atheism on the Web.: http://atheism.miningco.com
--- "A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence." David Hume
--- "Thinking men cannot be ruled." Ayn Rand
EGordon873
>> If there is no God, I am utterly alone. That's all I can say for sure.
>
feel better to believe that god exists then that's great, and I
>won't even think about objecting. Just please don't try and persuade us to go
along with your little fantasy.
So, perhaps, I have created this presence in an effort to minimize my feelings
of aloneness. I must admit, without going into a great deal of details, that I
was extensively abandon as a child. But surely, just because I need to believe
in God doesn't change God's existence. I mean if He really does exist, then my
messed up psychology isn't going to change that, correct?
And, of course, I have no desire to persuade you to my belief in God. I need
you to remain an athiest. You cannot help me if all of the sudden you start
believing in God, too.
>Most of us here have "come to terms" with being apart from your god, and are
just making the most of our lives with friends and family. We don't _need_ a
god to provide comfort, but if you do then most of us will have no problem with
that.
Well, I'm glad that you have given me your blessing to go ahead and believe
however I choose, I must admit, that is a great relief. But tell me, are your
friends and family atheists as well?
See, I am all willing to admit that my sense of God is simply me comforting
myself. But, what do I do with all the evidence out there. I mean, I'd have
to buy into evolution of everything by mere chance and give up completely any
theories as to how the universe banged to begin with. I like evolution and I
still can't except it as an explanation. So, how do you settle your curiosity
about the origins of life, your consciousness, and the start of the universe?
Surely, you don't just ignore these mysteries do you. I mean atheists are
supposed to be the intellecutal answer-providers. So, I am willing to convert
to atheism, but I need you to help me believe in it.
Sincerely,
Ed
EGordon873
>There were some interesting points made here and I won't dwell on most of
them. I do find a recurring theme in many discussions regarding atheism though
and thought I'd post my personal viewpoint...
Please do.
>There is this pervasive idea that a universe without a god or deity of some
sort is obscene and horrific. Further, that a universe without such a prime
force must be futile and pointless. And still further, that a universe without
a point or purpose would be truly the worst possible scenario and not worth
living in.
That seems to be how I view it.
>Now, I happen to believe that the last case is the actuality, you may disagree
but that is not the point in my argument. In my opinion, the universe exists
without any purpose per se.
Fair enough.
>This I find wonderful.
You're kidding?
> In fact, the inherent purposelessness of the universe is part of it's
greatest beauty. That simple (ish;) rules can produce such marvelous diversity
and truly joyous complexity without
>any need for design or cognition at all makes me feel that we are witnessing a
great thing.
Wouldn't that be giving the universe a purpose? I mean, you are saying that if
nothing else, the universe serves a purpose by giving you pleasure in it's
mindless complexity. It's the same purpose that art has. So, it seems that
you cannot stand the idea of a purposeless universe either. Presented with the
problem, you immediately give thy universe a purpose. In fact, you are calling
it a piece of art. I think the same thing. I think God created the universe
for the same reason that artists create their works. Actually, though you have
tried to phrase it in atheistic terms, you are right in line with orthodox
religious thought. How am I ever supposed to get over my belief in God, if you
atheists keep doing that?
> So what that it has no purpose? It is immaterial to my enjoyment of it. That
there is pain and suffering is undeniable but that is not reason enough to
condemn the entirety of the Universe for the manner in which we experience it.
I agree. Actually, I believe that the universe shows a great deal more mercy
than we would expect to find in it. Most creatures are perfectly content for
the majority of their lives. They really only suffer, relatively speaking, a
short time before they die.
Oh well, talk to you later.
Ed Gordon
Greg Gyetko
EGordon873 wrote:
> Yes, atheists are wrong, but isn't it interesting that they are so adamant
> about their convictions?
Only when idiots like you start bothering us.
> It's easy to be an atheist when you don't need God.
That's the point. We grew up. We don't fairytales anymore. No more Santa Claus,
no more Easter Bunny, no more "God".
> It's just interesting how atheists really aren't talking about God at all when
> they deny His existence.
> What they are really talking about is you. They are saying: "I don't like you,
> and I'm different than you."
Actually, most atheist I know are much better at speaking and would probably say,
"I don't like you. I'm different *from* you."
> If you ask me, is God the non-physical, Will that created the universe. I
> would say , yes, God exists.
Er, in other words, what you call God, we might call "quantum vaccuum
fluctuations"?
> If you ask me if God is a person, I would be hard pressed to prove it.
No shit dickhead. Thus atheism.
> When I think about my belief in God. I realize that He is a fundamental part
> of my psychology.
Yeah, like we always says, you're fucked in the head.
> When I am alone, I feel as if there is something observing me.
That's us. Black helicopters, y'know. We'll be more discreet in the future.
> All the time, and everywhere. It's not a strong obsession, and it doesn't
> keep me from doing socially unacceptable things when I am alone, but I realize
> that the feeling is always there. I wonder if it is real, or simply a part of
> my development as a child.
No, no. It's because you're fucked in the head.
> Can anyone help me with this?
For a new brain, write to:
ACME Brains Inc,
P.O. Box 66600,
Idiot Boulevard,
Hollywood, CA.
> Ed Gordon
Greg.
--
alt.atheism Atheist #911
"I'd worship Satan, but I'm going to hell anyway,
so why waste my time?"
EAC homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9916/
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <199806241403...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
;I think you have made my point
Does your religion also know the concept of "sarcasm"?
;Oh, yeah, masturbation, of course, but I was actually thinking about picking my
;nose. Thanks for your input just the same, though.
Maybe it does know the concept, just not the application by non-believers?
Niall McAuley
Greg Gyetko <ggy...@blah.newbridge.com> writes:
>The Veridican wrote:
>> When I am alone, I feel as if there is something observing me.
>That's us. Black helicopters, y'know. We'll be more discreet in the future.
Whisper mode still seems effective according to our dB measurements.
Gordo may be subliminally detecting the microwave lasers effect on
his skull cavity contents, which should be medium-well by now.
--
Niall #36 [real address ends in se, not es]
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <199806241419...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
;was extensively abandon as a child. But surely, just because I need to believe
;in God doesn't change God's existence. I mean if He really does exist, then my
;messed up psychology isn't going to change that, correct?
Neither will it make him exist if he doesn't...
;And, of course, I have no desire to persuade you to my belief in God. I need
And yet you keep responding in alt.atheism solely...
;you to remain an athiest. You cannot help me if all of the sudden you start
;believing in God, too.
Phew! Big weight off of my shoulders!
;Well, I'm glad that you have given me your blessing to go ahead and believe
;however I choose, I must admit, that is a great relief. But tell me, are your
;friends and family atheists as well?
Wow, that sarcasm stuff again! That's what makes a good article to me. =)
;See, I am all willing to admit that my sense of God is simply me comforting
;myself. But, what do I do with all the evidence out there. I mean, I'd have
Please explain. What objective evidence is there?
;Surely, you don't just ignore these mysteries do you. I mean atheists are
;supposed to be the intellecutal answer-providers. So, I am willing to convert
;to atheism, but I need you to help me believe in it.
Science (not atheism) doesn't claim to hold all of the answers. But, it *does*
seek to ask the hard questions and look for the answers, where theism says
"it's Gawd's will" and ignores everything not found in the Buybull. And, you
don't "convert" to atheism. You either believe in a supreme being (theism) or
you don't (atheism).
Victor Danilchenko
You have always lied before, gordy; you broke your word a number of
times -- you even went so far as to say that you feel no obligation to
keep your word. You are a self-confessed liar, gordy -- do you think we
for a moment believe that you are actually being honest this time?
You've cried "wolf!" way too many times.
--
| Victor A. Danilchenko CSCF support |
| dani...@cs.umass.edu A313, 5-4231 |
+--------------------------------------------+
| Quando omni flunkus, moritati. |
YOELK
EGordon873 wrote:
> ?What horrible conclusions? I'm not alone in the universe. I've got friends
> and family, and myself to walk with me.
>
> You've got to be kidding me. You can't get in anyone's head. You only know
> the ficade that the put on. And no one can ever really know you.
That proposition already assumes many assumptions.
> You are
> utterly alone in this world. You can't even be sure you are not dreaming.
> Perhaps you and I do not want the same things out of life. What you say in the
> end is true. You have yourself to walk with, but unless you are insane,
> yourself cannot alleviate loneliness. But nevertheless, whatever works for you
> is fine by me. If there is no God, I am utterly alone. That's all I can say
> for sure.
> Ed
You are confusing loneliness with uncertainity/doubt , that's for sure.
You can't be sure that you are alone either.
----
Yoel
EGordon873
>You have always lied before, gordy; you broke your word a number of times --
you even went so far as to say that you feel no obligation to keep your word
I am surprised that I left such a lasting impression. Actually, I'm already
bored again, so you probably won't here from me for a while. But always know
that I am monitoring our little newsgroup.
Ed
Todd Adamson
EGordon873 says...
> Yes, atheists are wrong, but isn't it interesting that they are so adamant
> about their convictions? A lot of teenagers follow the atheist dogma because
> they see it as a means to rebel against authority. I like what one girl said
> during an interview after her and some others survived a structural fire. She
> said:
>
> We were all praying. Not to a god or anything, but just kind of for ourselves.
>
Define atheist dogma. Why are atheists wrong? What does your babbling
about teenage rebellion have to do with my not seeing evidence for a god?
> It's easy to be an atheist when you don't need God. Of course, God will let
> you burn to death. He does it all the time. It's just interesting how
> atheists really aren't talking about God at all when they deny His existence.
> What they are really talking about is you. They are saying: "I don't like you,
> and I'm different than you."
Do you often project your feelings of rejection on people you don't know?
It's interesting that when I deny god's existence it's because I see no
evidence for one.
> They don't really have the foggiest whether God exists or not, and somehow I
> get the feeling that God is not shocked or offended by their statements.
> Afterall, He has to put up with what the Christians say about Him, too.
Oh, I've got more than a foggy notion that there is no evidence for a
god.
> Now, you ask, how can I be so sure that there is a God. I will tell you that I
> have a hard time defining God, so I can't really tell you if He exists. We all
> try to hard to determine if God exists without first defining what God is.
Perhaps that's why you're screwed up, you believe in things you can't
even describe. If you can't reasonably define what you believe your god
to be, why criticize us for not accepting its existence.
> If you ask me, is God the non-physical, Will that created the universe. I
> would say , yes, God exists. If you ask me if God is a person, I would be hard
> pressed to prove it. God has never shown me anger, jealousy, or any other
> emotion. He has never expressed an opinion to me, nor has he ever told me he
> didn't like something. Though he did give me a religion called Veridicanism,
> but the most you can get from it is that he has a preference for reality and
> truth. So, if He is a person, I don't know how to define him.
Veridicanism? I'm afraid I lost you on that one. The fact that you have
no clue about what it is you believe in, leaves me with the impression
that you may not have all of your faculties running at peak proficiency.
> When I think about my belief in God. I realize that He is a fundamental part
> of my psychology. When I am alone, I feel as if there is something observing
> me. All the time, and everywhere. It's not a strong obsession, and it doesn't
> keep me from doing socially unacceptable things when I am alone, but I realize
> that the feeling is always there. I wonder if it is real, or simply a part of
> my development as a child.
May I suggest you are making up an imaginary friend to help you coup with
reality.
<snip>
> Will this be the end of it? If I find that there is no God, only a
> psychological delusion from infancy, will I be able to accept that. Yes, of
> course. But I would never reveal it to those who have depended on me for their
> faith. Unlike the atheists in the NG, I know the horrible conclusions of a
> life without God. I know what it does to the mind of a man to be alone in the
> universe.
>
> Can anyone help me with this?
>
Why should we help you? You obviously don't have any respect for us.
--
Todd Adamson #1114 - SPAMGOO_tadamson@SPAMGOO_netins.net
(Remove spam goo to respond)
Corruption, in the goat herd
Flesh crumbles, in the real world
- Godflesh
March on up to the cannon's mouth and say,
"I can do any Goddamn thing I want."
- Foetus
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <199806242023...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
;I am surprised that I left such a lasting impression. Actually, I'm already
;bored again, so you probably won't here from me for a while. But always know
;that I am monitoring our little newsgroup.
Do you smoke cigarettes and pretend you're Raul Bloodworth too?
Barry Laderman
>>>
>>Bravo! Which Shelley wrote this?
>
>Poicy
>
dunke
DonnaCoyne
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Atheists Are Wrong
>From: Greg Gyetko <ggy...@blah.newbridge.com>
>Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 10:39 EDT
>Message-id: <35910FBC...@blah.newbridge.com>
>
>EGordon873 wrote:
>
>For a new brain, write to:
>
>ACME Brains Inc,
>P.O. Box 66600,
>Idiot Boulevard,
>Hollywood, CA.
>
Chapter 11, and has suspended its commercial
dealings for the time being, because it's in
the process of fighting a huge product
negligence lawsuit brought against it by
Wile E. Coyote.
Cabrutus
EGordon873 <egord...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806232342...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
[snipped assertions]
[snipped Veridican talking about subjective personal revelation as if he
thought it were valid]
>
> Is God merely my mother? (help us all). If I didn't have this feeling of
> otherness, would I believe in God? Is it a gift or a delusion? I
understand
> suffering in the world; I understand why God would not prove Himself to
His
Good, please explain suffering in the world.
> creation, I understand the logical arguments for God's existence, I have
seen
None of them work. You still have to show existence demands a conscious
observer. And what is observation, exactly?
> miracles and strange phenomena, but those don't do it for me. I believe
in God
> becuase of this life-long feeling I have had that I am never alone.
I see, and you think this "feeling" can actually make the inference of an
all-powerful intelligent being that created the universe a justified
inference.
[snip]
> faith. Unlike the atheists in the NG, I know the horrible conclusions of
a
> life without God. I know what it does to the mind of a man to be alone
in the
> universe.
Good, tell me more please. What horrible conclusions?
>
> Can anyone help me with this?
>
> Ed Gordon
>
>
>
>
>
--
Cabrutus -- alt.atheism atheist #820 -- EAC conspirator #29
loc...@geocities.SPAMMERS.SUCK.PAT.ROBERTSON.com
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3587/
Van Isaac Anderson
EGordon873 wrote:
> See, I am all willing to admit that my sense of God is simply me
> comforting myself. But, what do I do with all the evidence out there.
> I mean, I'd have to buy into evolution of everything by mere chance
> and give up completely any theories as to how the universe banged to
> begin with. I like evolution and I still can't except it as an
> explanation. So, how do you settle your curiosity about the origins
> of life, your consciousness, and the start of the universe?
Why do you think a god-concept precludes the idea of evolution, the big
bang, etc? Why do you think that science precludes the existence of any
sort of god? I can't speak for all of us here, but my lack of belief in
gods simply stems from the fact that I have never seen anything that
would lead me to believe in gods, and I have no emotional need for
gods. Just because you have a need for god(s), does not mean that you
have to shed everything else. I have close friends who are theist
agnostics. They simply believe in a god that started everything at the
big bang, and let the universe run its course. They believe that when
they die, they will go on to an afterlife with that god. They know
nothing about this god, and don't believe that they have the right to
know anything about it. They simply believe, and are strong because of
their belief and the fact that their belief doesn't effect their
interactions with the world and doesn't effect reason.
> Surely, you don't just ignore these mysteries do you.
No. You come up with sound, logical, explainations that have absolutely
nothing to do with the god in which you believe. Gods do not preclude
science, and science does not preclude gods.
> I mean atheists are supposed to be the intellecutal answer-providers.
No, we are simply people who call 'em as they see 'em. If you think we
are anything else, then you have been misled. We try to describe the
world as best we can. If we fail, we have at least tried.
> So, I am willing to convert to atheism, but I need you to help me
> believe in it.
Why? If you need the crutch of a god, why? If you haven't come to it
yourself, why?
> Sincerely,
>
> Ed
--
Van Isaac Anderson #716
_ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ __
_|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|__
____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____
_|_____|____DEFEND THE WALL____|_____|__
____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____
_|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|__
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
In article <35917D...@geocities.com>, Van Isaac Anderson wrote:
>
>Why do you think a god-concept precludes the idea of evolution, the big
>bang, etc? Why do you think that science precludes the existence of any
>sort of god? I can't speak for all of us here, but my lack of belief in
never read genesis, huh?
The biblical story of creation, leading to original sin which is a
required doctrine for christiality, precludes the idea of evolution.
Stephen Knight
On 24 Jun 1998 13:36:52 GMT, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
>Oh, come now, steve. You know that in the past I was trolling for fun. But
>now I am here to learn from you all. You shouldn't take things so seriously
>and, really, is saving my old posts really worth it?
>
>Ed
Eat me Pus Brain. Don't flatter yourself into thinking your posts
are worth saving. I guess you are too stupid to know about dejanews.
You are on the twit list. And if possible, you will be a Net Kook.
Just what you always wanted, to be noticed.
Steve Knight #855
Stephen Knight
On 24 Jun 1998 20:23:29 GMT, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
>>You have always lied before, gordy; you broke your word a number of times --
>you even went so far as to say that you feel no obligation to keep your word
>
>I am surprised that I left such a lasting impression. Actually, I'm already
>bored again, so you probably won't here from me for a while. But always know
>that I am monitoring our little newsgroup.
>
>Ed
Who care fuckwit. Just go away. Remember your first post to a.a.
you said "it was revealed to me". Implying your special relationship
with the space pixie. What a laugh! I guess you didn't wait long
enough to come back. There are still a.a.'s that remember you and your
sick mind fuck.
Steve Knight #855
matab
On 24 Jun 1998 14:32:32 GMT, egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
>> In fact, the inherent purposelessness of the universe is part of it's
>>greatest beauty. That simple (ish;) rules can produce such marvelous
>>diversity and truly joyous complexity without any need for design or
>> cognition at all makes me feel that we are witnessing a great thing.
>Wouldn't that be giving the universe a purpose?
No, funny you say so.
>I mean, you are saying that if nothing else, the universe serves a purpose
> by giving you pleasure in it's mindless complexity.
Did he say so? Where.
Are you sure you are not making it up?
>It's the same purpose that art has.
>So, it seems that you cannot stand the idea of a purposeless universe either.
To you maybe. Not to any sensible person.
I definitely think you are making it up for some weird purpose,
let's see....
>Presented with the problem, you immediately give thy universe a purpose.
>In fact, you are calling it a piece of art.
He is not! You are.
Pieces of art are produced for some reasons, a wonderful sunset
has no author and no purpose. It is only wonderful to the eyes
of the observer.
>I think the same thing. I think God created the universe
>for the same reason that artists create their works.
Here you are! That's the reason why you invented imaginary purposes
in advers@ri's post.
>How am I ever supposed to get over my belief in God, if you
>atheists keep doing that?
A question comes to my mind: are you a compulsive liar?
>...I believe that the universe shows a great deal more mercy
>than we would expect to find in it. Most creatures are perfectly content for
>the majority of their lives.
Especially the gazelle whose everyday worry is only to avoid to be eaten
by the lion.
>They really only suffer, relatively speaking, a short time before they die.
Why don't YOU give it a try?
As long as it happens to other creatures, what's so scary in
being eaten ALIVE?
Manlio
matab WA #926
Denis Loubet
<snip>
> > In fact, the inherent purposelessness of the universe is part of it's
> greatest beauty. That simple (ish;) rules can produce such marvelous
diversity
> and truly joyous complexity without
> >any need for design or cognition at all makes me feel that we are
witnessing a
> great thing.
>
that if
> nothing else, the universe serves a purpose by giving you pleasure in
it's
> mindless complexity.
I think he's saying that the universe has no intrinsic purpose, in and of
itself. The universe was not CREATED for a purpose, and has no meaning. An
individual can give the universe a purpose, but that purpose exists only in
the individual's mind, and is meaningful only to that individual.
> It's the same purpose that art has. So, it seems that
> you cannot stand the idea of a purposeless universe either. Presented
with the
> problem, you immediately give thy universe a purpose.
First off, I wouldn't call it a problem. Second, it's human nature to find
patterns and "meaning" in the universe around us. We are uncomfortable
unless we have a sense of where we stand in the universe. So we decide what
the universe means TO US. The universe, aloof and impersonal, if I may
anthropomorphize, continues on, unaware and uncareing of what meaning or
purpose we give it. The universe continues to be the universe irrespective
of our wishes and interpretations.
> In fact, you are calling
> it a piece of art. I think the same thing. I think God created the
universe
> for the same reason that artists create their works. Actually, though
you have
> tried to phrase it in atheistic terms, you are right in line with
orthodox
> religious thought. How am I ever supposed to get over my belief in God,
if you
> atheists keep doing that?
Yes, we sometimes anthropomorphize natural wonders and describe them as
works of art, but we know full well that that is just poetic license, and
that a real piece of art requires an artist. No one denies that a sunset
can be beautiful, but a sunset is not a piece of art. A photo or painting
of the sunset IS a piece of art. The difference is intent. Both the
photographer and painter excercise their artistic sensibilities to present
their interpretation of the sunset.
That being the case, we can admire the wonders of nature with the full
knowledge that there is no artist or intent involved in the wonder itself.
<snip>
--
Denis Loubet
VP Art Production
Illusion Machines Inc.
denis at illusionmachines.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.illusionmachines.com
erikc
On 24 Jun 1998 13:46:36 GMT
egord...@aol.com (EGordon873) wrote:
-- origin: alt.atheism:
>|Erik wrote:
>|
>|>Yeah. It's all crap. There just isn't any evidence for a god or gods.
>|Period.
>|
>|Unfortunately, your simplistic view of the world fails to persuade me. There
>|seems to be a great deal of evidence, as far as I am concerned. For me, I see
>|watches all over the ground, I just can't find the watchmaker. Evidence is not
>|a problem, but evidence isn't proof, is it?
Give it up. There is no evidence whatever *outside you own mind* that
this god whatchamacallit exists, never mind is capable of doing the
things you ascribe to it. If you are happy wallowing in these
fantasies, and if they comfort you, that's just bully. I am not, and
never will be .
Since I have decided that you are a troll, this exchange is ended.
Erikc (WA #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
| "The Truth against the World."
| -- Bardic Motto
cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
EGordon873 (egord...@aol.com) wrote:
: Erik wrote:
: >Yeah. It's all crap. There just isn't any evidence for a god or gods.
: There seems to be a great deal of evidence, as far as I am concerned.
Your personal standards as to what constitutes evidence is apparently
quite low...
: For me, I see watches all over the ground, I just can't find the
: watchmaker.
The refuted-to-death "Argument from design" is a logical fallacy.
--
***********************************************************
* *
* | Logic used | Logic not used | *
* -----------------|---------------|------------------| *
* Data used | Science | Empiricism | *
* -----------------|---------------|------------------| *
* Data not used | Rationalism | Mysticism | *
* *
***********************************************************
cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
EGordon873 (egord...@aol.com) wrote:
: >They are saying: "I don't like you, and I'm different than you."
: >God doesn't mind because he ISN'T THERE, YOU M*&%N!
: I think you have made my point
Painting everyone with the same brush, eh Gordo?
Yet I can't say I'm disappointed in you because I never expected better.
Mark Richardson
world and how it evolved are nor "real" christians?
Not all christians are biblical literalists - many theologians would
argue that belief in an infallible bible is a form of idolatory and
therefore blasphemous.
Christian fundermentalists do not posses the wit and sophistication to
understand such ideas of course.
Cheers Mark.
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Richardson
m.rich...@utas.edu.au
____________________________________________________________
Andrew Berry
In article <199806241419...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, EGordon873
<URL:mailto:egord...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > If there is no God, I am utterly alone. That's all I can say for
> > > sure.
> >
> > makes you feel better to believe that god exists then that's great,
> > and I won't even think about objecting. Just please don't try and
> > persuade us to go along with your little fantasy.
>
> So, perhaps, I have created this presence in an effort to minimize my
> feelings of aloneness. I must admit, without going into a great deal
> just because I need to believe in God doesn't change God's existence.
> I mean if He really does exist, then my messed up psychology isn't
> going to change that, correct?
Correct. And if he doesn't exist then pretending (or believing) that he
does won't change the fact that he doesn't.
> And, of course, I have no desire to persuade you to my belief in God.
> I need you to remain an athiest. You cannot help me if all of the
> sudden you start believing in God, too.
I don't have any plans to do that. :-)
> > Most of us here have "come to terms" with being apart from your
> > god, and are just making the most of our lives with friends and
> > family. We don't _need_ a god to provide comfort, but if you do
> > then most of us will have no problem with that.
>
> Well, I'm glad that you have given me your blessing to go ahead and
> believe however I choose, I must admit, that is a great relief.
> But tell me, are your friends and family atheists as well?
Most of my friends are; my family I'm not so sure about. They don't go
to church and never mention religion, but I don't know for sure what
they do or don't believe.
> See, I am all willing to admit that my sense of God is simply me
> comforting myself. But, what do I do with all the evidence out
> there. I mean, I'd have to buy into evolution of everything by mere
> chance and give up completely any theories as to how the universe
> banged to begin with. I like evolution and I still can't except it
> as an explanation.
Why not? Just because it does against the word of the bible? Which
would you rather believe - your common sense (based on the scientific
findings of others) or a book of uncertain origin?
> So, how do you settle your curiosity about the origins of life, your
> consciousness, and the start of the universe? Surely, you don't just
> ignore these mysteries do you.
No, but neither do I feel that answers to various "why" questions
necessarily have an answer. I'm quite willing to accept that we may
never find out, and I believe this approach to be a more honest one
than simply saying "god did it" and pretending that this is an adequate
answer.
> I mean atheists are supposed to be the intellecutal answer-providers.
> So, I am willing to convert to atheism, but I need you to help me
> believe in it.
We may never know the answers to some questions... you have to accept
that.
Cheers,
--
Andrew Berry (and...@metallinks.com), atheist #1141
http://www.metallinks.com/
The power and the majesty amidst the blood and steel
Darryl L. Pierce
In article <slrn6p32bd.92n.TheC...@nyx10.nyx.net>, TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:
;In article <35917D...@geocities.com>, Van Isaac Anderson wrote:
;>Why do you think a god-concept precludes the idea of evolution, the big
;never read genesis, huh?
;
;The biblical story of creation, leading to original sin which is a
;required doctrine for christiality, precludes the idea of evolution.
He said "god-concept", meaning a belief in *some* divine being(s). This is not
a reference to the xtian Gawd, but to gods in general.
W. Kiernan
EGordon873 wrote:
>
> (various incoherent gibberish snipped)
>
> Can anyone help me with this?
>
> Ed Gordon
Yes, I can help you. Go away. Stop posting to alt.atheism. Go find a
Christian newsgroup. Here is a short list of them:
alt.religion.christian
talk.religion.misc
alt.bible.prophecy
alt.christnet
Go bother them with your idiocy. Maybe they can "help you" put your
incoherent ravings in some sort of logical order.
Of course, you really don't want any sort of help. You just posted this
rubbish to annoy us atheists. You did this out of sheer malice. Don't
quote me that ass Saint Paul about evangelism. One does not evangelize
by slapping the listener across the face in the first line of one's
sermon. The fact is, you posted this crap for the one and only reason
that you want to piss off a bunch of strangers.
Some "Christian"! Using Christianity itself as a tool with which to
express your hostility to complete strangers! If you knew a tenth as
much about the doctrine of Jesus as I do, and if you were really a
Christian, which you're not, you'd realize that that was a sin, and
you'd repent.
Sincerely, WDK - WKie...@concentric.net