Re: Historical Proofs
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> Historical Proofs
>
> The third area in which probability plays a crucial role in determining and
> sustaining truth concerns historical facts. How do we know Abraham
> Lincoln, Napoleon Bonaparte, Julius Caesar, Siddhartha Gautama (the
> Buddha), Jesus Christ, or any other historical figure ever lived? How do we
> know the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620? How do we know
> Joan of Arc was burned at the stake in 1431? None of these events can be
> confirmed by science because they are not repeatable and observable
> events. Yet we believe all to be historical facts. Why? Because they are
> substantiated by probability evidence.
>
> Once again, as in science and law, historical conclusions are not dependent
> on absolute certainty as in mathematics or formal logic. However, as
> Habermas and Miethe have stated:
>
> The concept of probability does not preclude our achieving certainty in
> matters of well-established historical findings [e.g., the testimony of
> Scriptures]. Events that are validated by careful historical research (and
> especially those established for long periods of time) in the absence of
> contrary findings are proven facts.?15?
>
> As in science and law, historical investigation is carried forth by employing
> the same sort of verification techniques used in almost all the affairs of life.
> Christianity demands nothing more than what is applied to other areas of
> human knowledge; it needs no greater test to authenticate it than what is
> used to authenticate scientific, legal, and now historical matters.
>
> How do responsible historians work? They adhere to two important rules.
> First, they are unbiased in their approach. They do not allow their own
> presuppositions to influence their investigation or their conclusions. They
> hold to the conviction that the truthfulness of any historical event depends on
> the preponderance of evidence supporting it. So they investigate and analyze
> all pertinent evidence.
>
> Second, in order to determine fact from fiction, historians seek the best
> evidence available to support or disavow a particular event. What kind of
> evidence is best? There is only one kind that is reliable enough to determine
> beyond reasonable doubt the factuality of any historical event: primary
> source evidence (firsthand testimony). This entails recorded documentation
> by qualified and honest eyewitnesses to the event. If observers are
> psychologically sound and do not disqualify themselves by contradictions,
> inaccuracies, opposing evidence, or obvious bias, their testimony is
> considered valid to substantiate truth. The most convincing and irrefutable
> historical incidents rely on this kind of documentation.
>
> Can this be applied to Christianity? Absolutely. I will illustrate this with an
> example.
>
> All Christian truth-claims ultimately rest with the reliability of the Bible. What
> we know about the nature of God, deity of Christ, work of the Holy Spirit,
> means to salvation, answered prayer, and all other Christian truths rests
> squarely on the authenticity of Scripture.?16? If we cannot sustain the
> Bible's authority and reliability, Christianity crumbles. Its truth-claims would
> then rest on the subjective religious experiences or the personal
> interpretation of people-which, we saw, cannot be tested independently
> for truth. It is the reliability of the Bible that sets Christianity apart from all
> other religions.
>
> The Bible is a historical document that Christians claim is the revelation of
> God. Its authors are dead and much of its contents are not only fantastic, but
> impossible to prove with mathematical certainty (e.g., miracles, deity of
> Christ, and creation). How does historical evidence prove the reliability and
> authenticity of the Bible? It does so in two ways.
>
> First, it reveals positive evidence. The same methods of historical
> investigation used to determine the authenticity of any ancient document can
> be applied to the Bible. The results of this investigation demonstrate beyond
> doubt that the Bible is completely accurate and trustworthy with regard to its
> textual composition, its historical, scientific, and prophetic claims, and its
> geographical and cultural descriptions. Here are a few examples.
>
> Archaeology has verified almost all the historical events, peoples, nations,
> cities, and customs portrayed in Scripture. Many of these facts were once
> rejected by skeptics because, for centuries, their existence was mentioned
> only in the Bible. Likewise, hundreds of Old Testament prophecies have
> been borne out by history.?17? Most noteworthy are the dozens of
> prophecies that predict the coming, life, ministry, death, and resurrection of
> Jesus Christ.?18? All together, these and other historical evidences are
> powerful and compelling proof of the historicity of the Bible.
>
> What conclusion can we draw? In every area in which it can be checked
> out, the Bible is proven to be totally reliable. If its verifiable contents are
> proven to be accurate and reliable, it is logical to assume that its subjective
> truth-claims (i.e., its spiritual contents) are equally trustworthy. There is no
> logical reason to reject this. The key here is that the Bible's subjective truths
> do not attempt to stand alone. They rest squarely and firmly on a foundation
> of verifiable facts.
>
> Second, historical investigation provides negative evidence. When the same
> techniques of historical investigation used to verify the Bible are applied to
> other religious documents, the non-Christian documents are found to be
> spurious. Much of their historical, scientific, and prophetic claims are false.
> Indeed, all non-Christian religions are conspicuous by the absence of
> historical evidence. Ultimately, non-Christian religions fall back on personal
> experiences and the unverified so-called "revelations" of their religious
> leaders.
>
> No other religious book in the world passes the test of objective historical
> investigation that the Bible does. As such, Christianity attains the highest
> level of certainty available in the area of historical proof.
>
> [1]
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 15 Habermas and Miethe, Why Believe? 241.
>
> 16 Two excellent books on the historical reliability of Scripture are: F. F.
> Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (Downers
> Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 5th ed., 1984) and John Warwick
> Montgomery, History and Christianity (San Bernardino, Calif.: Here's Life
> Publishers, 1983).
>
> 17 Many books have been written that record details of fulfilled Old
> Testament prophecy. Good introductory studies include Josh McDowell,
> Evidence That Demands a Verdict, chapters 9 and 11, and John Warwick
> Montgomery, ed., Evidence for Faith, chapter 4.
>
> 18 John Ankerberg, John Weldon, and Walter C. Kaiser Jr., The Case for
> Jesus the Messiah: Incredible Prophecies that Prove God Exists (Eugene,
> Ore.: Harvest House, 1989).
>
> [1]Story, D. (1998). Christianity on the offense : Responding to the beliefs
> and assumptions of spiritual seekers (83). Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel
> Publications.
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for compelling you
to cross-post this.
Laus Deo ! ! !
May GOD continue to heal our hearts with HIS living water so that we
can love our neighbors a little more and LORD Jesus Christ a whole lot
more, dear brother whom I love unconditionally.
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://EmoryCardiology.com
Mark K. Bilbo
> Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for compelling you
> to cross-post this.
He didn't. You did.
Quit lying.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"For men become civilized, not in proportion to their
willingness to believe, but in proportion to their
readiness to doubt." - H.L. Mencken
Kurt Gavin
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How
can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the
end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought
her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to
sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.
And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no
longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If
he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her
food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any
of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any
payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves
as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both
male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die
right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the
slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave
survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his
own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Bill M
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@emorycardiology.com> wrote in message
news:1169483118.3...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>> What conclusion can we draw? In every area in which it can be checked
>> out, the Bible is proven to be totally reliable. If its verifiable
>> contents are
>> proven to be accurate and reliable, it is logical to assume that its
>> subjective
>> truth-claims (i.e., its spiritual contents) are equally trustworthy.
>> There is no
>> logical reason to reject this. The key here is that the Bible's
>> subjective truths
>> do not attempt to stand alone. They rest squarely and firmly on a
>> foundation
>> of verifiable facts.
>>
The foundation of all Christian religions are the Bibles
The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence. Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are
available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable
veracity. The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the
invention of the printing press. Even the so called originals were
supposedly written by 56 or more different authors of unknown veracity. They
are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And
the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their follower's
belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions
alone.
The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true!
There is NO - NADA _evidence the Bibles are the word of any Gods. They are
no more than the words of hundreds of errant religious leaders motivated to
impress and control their flock.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence as to their authenticity and
veracity. The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
contradictions, human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding,
misogyny, destruction, barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not
accurate history and certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an
insane and totally untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
NONE of the Bibles were written during Jesus' 'CLAIMED LIFE TIME'. Time and
distance was required to allow the creation of fictional stories and the
embellishment of history.
There is also the matter of the Biblical canon itself. After all, ancient
Israel and the early church knew of many more religious books than the ones
that now constitute the Bible. For example, there were over 50 gospels in
circulation at the time New Testaments were chosen by church leaders, yet
only four made it into the New Testament. Who decided which of the books
would become part of the Christian scriptures, and again, "Why?" Who
decided, "This book belongs... this book doesn't..."? What were their
reasons? What were their motives? How do we know if ANY of them were
authentic? In addition there is evidence that the Bibles were altered by
church leaders to support their personal motives and ambitions.
The fact is, there are no clear records available which document the
church's process of determining which books were acceptable and which books
were unacceptable and why. The general consensus of opinion among scholars
is that the decision was based on whether or not the book agreed with the
prevailing theological thought and motives at the time. In other words, the
only books accepted were the ones that agreed with the opinions, desires and
motives of the church leadership at the time
It is interesting to note that NONE of the Bibles were written during Jesus'
claimed life time. It seems time needed to pass to permit the creation of
tales and the embellishment of history.
According to Bart Ehrman, professor and Chair of the Dept. of Religious
Studies at the University of North Carolina, The Bible is not the error-free
word of any god. There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the
basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have
uncovered more thousands of differences in those texts.
The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark appear to have been added to the
text many years later -- and these are the only verses in that book that
mention Christ reappearing after his death.
Another critical passage is in 1 John, which explicitly sets out the Holy
Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). It is a cornerstone of
Christian theology, and this is the only place where it appears in any of
the Bibles -- and it appears to have been added to the text centuries later,
by an unknown scribe.
For a man who originally believed the Bible was the inspired Word of God,
Ehrman sought the true originals to shore up his faith. The problem: he
found there are NO original manuscripts of ANY of the Bibles - Old or New
Testaments!
If the history of the resurrection of Christ had not really happened, the
message . . . according to the authority of the apostle Paul, had to be
'null and void'. Ehrman slowly came to a horrifying realization: There was
no real historical record. It was, he felt, no more than myths and fables,
told by illiterate men and not set down in writing for decades that
followed.
There is no solid agreement even within the Christian community on the
interpretation of the Bibles. There are 18 English versions alone. There are
thousands of variations and opinions as to the meaning of various Biblical
statements.
If Jesus was God, why did he not leave behind an authentic record of his
rules and commands? Why are there NO Biblical documents written during his
'claimed' time on earth? The Old Testaments were written 'before his birth'.
The New Testaments were written '60 and more years after his death' by men
that could never have known Jesus personally. NONE were written during his
'claimed' life time. Studies by Tony Busby indicate the new testaments were
really not compiled until the third century by the church leadership at the
time.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence as to their authenticity and
veracity. The Bibles contain both historical and scientific errors. They
contain manifest absurdities, unfulfilled prophesies, immoralities,
indecencies, obscenities, atrocities, barbarities, myths, folklore and
legends. They are nothing more than hearsay, myths, contradictions and
implausible tales.
Here is just a small sampling of implausible Bible stories.
The Fallacy of Miracles
Is Jesus divine because of his miracles, particularly that he raised the
dead? If so, then why is he singled out as special when others have done the
same long before? Moses parted the sea, changed a stick into a serpent, and
changed water into blood. Must he not have been divine? We have seen Elisha
and Elijah do the same sort of miracles as Jesus. Elisha raised the dead,
resurrected himself, healed a leper, fed a hundred people with twenty barley
loaves and a few ears of corn, and healed a blind man (2 Kings 4:35; 13:21;
5:14; 4:44; 6:11), while Elijah made an inexhaustible bowl of flour and an
inexhaustible jar of oil, and also raised the dead (1 Kings 17:14, 22). Why
are they not equal to Jesus, if such miracles denote divinity? Indeed,
someone in the Jewish scriptures far surpasses Jesus in raising up dead
bodies-Ezekiel raised "a great, an immense army", and all in one go (Ezekiel
37:1-10). In fact, the miracle of stopping the sun in its daily rotation
(Joshua 10:12-13) was a vastly greater miracle than just raising the dead.
The story of creation
A totally illogical Biblical story is the story of creation. It is obviously
pure fiction.
Genesis says that God created first the earth, then the Sun and Moon.
We know from astronomical data that our Sun and Moon is much older than the
earth. And all of these are older by eons than man. Only uneducated
egocentric humans could have written such nonsense.
Biblically, God created the world about six thousand years ago. 'Scientific
Evidence' indicates the Universe, as we now know it, began more than 13
BILLION years ago or more.
In the Bible, the Universe is a firmament and the Earth is a fixed (not to
mention flat) Planet and the Son, Moon and other planets revolve around the
earth. This was believed until modern scientific inquiry showed this was
totally false. We now KNOW the Earth revolves around the Son and the
Universe is over 20 BILLION light years in diameter and is made up of
trillions of Stars and Planets of which our planetary system is a very
miniscule and inconsequential part. There was no concept of a 'Universe' in
Biblical times.
Everything beyond our immediate Son and planets was considered Heaven.
In the Bible the earth is created in the first day, before the Son, Moon and
Stars. Objective scientific evidence is that the Earth did not form until
approximately 10 BILLION YEARS after the beginning of the present Universe
and after the formation of the Son, and many other stars.
The Creation of the World
Genesis
In the beginning of creation, when God made heaven and earth, the earth was
without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a
mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters. God said, Let there
be light, and there was light; and God saw that the light was good, and he
separated light from darkness. He called the light day, and the darkness
night. So evening came, and morning came, the first day. God created light
before he created the Sun and the Moon!
Astronomical evidence shows the Son existed long before the Earth; therefore
the earth was not created before the Son. It is equally obvious that the
writers of that time thought the World was the center the firmament and that
they had no conception of the size and nature of the Universe. Everything
beyond the Sun and Moon was considered to be gods Heaven
God said, Let there be a vault between the waters, to separate water from
water. So God made the vault, and separated the water under the vault from
the water above it, and so it was; and God called the vault heaven. Evening
came, and morning came, a second day.
God said; Let the waters under heaven be gathered into one place, so that
dry land may appear; and so it was. God called the dry land earth, and the
gathering of the waters he called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then
God said, Let the earth produce fresh growth, let there be on the earth
plants bearing seed, fruit-trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its kind. So it was; the earth yielded fresh growth, plants bearing seed
according to their kind and trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its king; and God saw that it was good. Evening came, and morning came, a
third day.
And this good and loving God created animals that eat other animals (and
man) and poisonous plants and snakes that kill!
God said, Let there be lights in the vault of heaven to separate day from
night, and let them serve as signs both for festivals and for seasons and
years. Let them also shine in the vault of heaven to give light on earth. So
it was; God made the two great lights, the greater to govern the day and the
lesser to govern the night; and with them he made the stars. God put these
lights in the vault of heaven to give light on earth, to govern day and
night, and to separate light from darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Evening came, and morning came, a fourth day.
Ancient man erroneously thought the stars beyond the Sun and Moon to be
Heaven. The Moon was NOT considered a reflection from the light of the Sun
but a lesser light.
God, said, Let the waters teem with countless living creatures, and let
birds fly above the earth across the vault of heaven. God then created the
great sea-monsters and all living creatures that move and swarm in the
waters, according to their kind, and every kind of bird; and God saw that it
was good. So he blessed them and said, be fruitful and increase, fill the
waters of the seas; and let the birds increase on land. Evening came, and
morning came, a fifth day.
And this all loving God created creatures of that kill and eat other
creatures including man.
Archaeological evidence shows that animals evolved from primitive cells over
a period of about four billion years - not in one day!
God said, let the earth bring forth living creatures, according to their
kind: cattle, reptiles, and wild animals, all according to their kind. So it
was; God made wild animals, cattle, and all reptiles, each according to its
kind; and he saw that it was good. Then God said, Let us make man it our
image and likeness to rule the fish in the sea , the birds of heaven, the
cattle, all wild animals on earth, and all reptiles that crawl upon the
earth. So God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created
him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, be
fruitful and increase, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish in
the sea, the birds of heaven, and every living thing that moves upon the
earth. God also said, I give you all plants that bear seed everywhere on
earth, and every tree bearing fruit which yields seed: they shall be yours
for food. All green plants I give for food to the wild animals, to all the
birds of heaven, and to all reptiles on earth, every living creature. So it
was; and God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Evening came,
and morning came, a sixth day.
And God created animals that need to kill and eat other animals including
man in order to survive. This is a loving and caring God?
Thus heaven and earth were completed with all their mighty throng. On the
sixth day God completed all the work he had been doing, and on the seventh
day he ceased from all his work. God blessed the seventh day and made it
holy, because on that day he ceased from all the work he had set himself to
do and rested.
Why would a God that is not physical but spiritual, get tired and need rest?
If this creator is such a loving and caring guy, why does he permit totally
innocent children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?
Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence?
Why does this loving and caring god create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions that effect people indiscriminately regardless of
their conduct or religious beliefs? Why does he permit millions of both
young and old to starve to death?
These afflict humans indiscriminately - young and old, atheists and members
of all religious beliefs.
Why did he design humans to suffer the decrepitude and malignancies of old
age? Even those that devote their lives to religious leadership suffer these
punishments of old age.
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals that need to eat other
animals to survive?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. The objective evidence is that, if there is a
god creator, he has no concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
Adam and Eve
In the Bible, there are two different accounts of Adam and Eve's creation.
According to the Priestly (P) history of the 5th or 6th century BC (Genesis
1:1-2:4), God on the sixth day of Creation created all the living creatures
and, "in his own image," man both "male and female." God then blessed the
couple, told them to be "fruitful and multiply," and gave them dominion over
all other living things.
According to the lengthier Yahwist (J) narrative of the 10th century BC
(Genesis 2:5-7, 2:15-4:1, 4:25), God, or Yahweh, created Adam at a time when
the earth was still void, forming him from the earth's dust and breathing
"into his nostrils the breath of life." God then gave Adam the primeval
Garden of Eden to tend but, on penalty of death, commanded him not to eat of
the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Subsequently, so that
Adam would not be alone, God created other animals but, finding these
insufficient, put Adam to sleep, took from him a rib, and created a new
companion, Eve. The two were persons of innocence until Eve yielded to the
temptations of the evil serpent and Adam joined her in eating the forbidden
fruit, whereupon they both recognized their nakedness and donned fig leaves
as garments. Immediately, God recognized their transgression and proclaimed
their punishments-for the woman, pain in childbirth and subordination to
man, and, for the man, relegation to an accursed ground with which he must
toil and sweat for his subsistence. Adam died at the age of 930!
In later Christian theology, the concept of original sin (q.v.) took hold-a
sin in which human kind has been held captive since the fall of Adam and
Eve. The doctrine was based on Pauline Scripture but has not been accepted
by a number of Christian sects and interpreters. Why should BILLIONS of
innocent people be punished over thousands of years for this original sin
that they had no part in?
This is both sadistic and ridiculous!
Jonah
As the story is related in the Book of Jonah, the prophet Jonah is called by
God to go to Nineveh (a great Assyrian city) and prophesy disaster because
of the city's wickedness. Jonah, in the story, feels about Nineveh as does
the author of the Book of Nahum-that the city must inevitably be destroyed
because of God's judgment against it. Thus Jonah does not want to prophesy,
because Nineveh might repent and thereby be saved. So he rushes down to
Joppa and takes passage in a ship that will carry him in the opposite
direction, thinking to escape God.
A storm of unprecedented severity strikes the ship, and it shows signs of
breaking up and foundering. Jonah confesses that it is his presence on board
that is causing the storm. At his request, he is thrown overboard, and the
storm subsides.
A "great fish," appointed by God, swallows Jonah, and he stays within the
fish's maw for three days and nights. He prays for deliverance and is
"vomited out" on dry land (ch. 2).
Totally implausible. He would have been digested by the fish in those three
days!
Sodom and Gomorrah
According to the Bible these cities and everyone in them, except Lot and his
family, were destroyed by fire and brimstone for their sinfulness. Lot's
wife was turned into a pillar of salt for disobeying God's command to not
look back at her city of birth being destroyed.
There is no way that EVERYONE in two cities could be so sinful, especially
innocent children, to deserve destruction by fire and brimstone.
Sodom and Gomorrah constituted, along with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and
Zoar (Bela), the five biblical "cities of the plain." Destroyed by"brimstone
and fire" because of their wickedness (Genesis 19:24).
Sodom and Gomorrah probably were devastated about 1900 BC by an earthquake
in the Dead Sea area of the Great Rift Valley, an extensive rift extending
from the Jordan River valley in Israel to the Zambezi River system in East
Africa. When the catastrophic destruction occurred, the petroleum and gases
existing in the area probably contributed to the imagery of "brimstone and
fire"
Cruel, inhumane and pure nonsense!
The Tower of Babel
Genesis 11.1 - 11.9
God became concerned that the Tower being built would reach his heaven.
He confounded the builders by giving them different languages so they could
no longer communicate with each other to continue the construction.
Why would this be of any concern to an all powerful God creator and wouldn't
this God creator realize that no tower could possibly reach his spiritual
heaven?
Noah and the Ark
The Bible is claimed to be the inerrant word of God
The story of Noah and the flood is only one of many ridiculous biblical
tales with no authentication or plausibility of any kind. It is an
impossible story.
1. The largest boat ever built to this day could not even come CLOSE to
housing Noah, his sons, wives and two of every type of animal on earth.
2. How were the 1.7 MILLION species collected in a boat and
cared for by a few people. How did he manage to get them all back to Asia,
Africa, Australia, North America, South America, the Arctic and Antarctic?
3. And this was a boat built of wood many thousands of years ago. There
are 1.7 million KNOWN species of animals on this planet. This story is
patently impossible, using only materials and tools available to Noah, to
build an arch large enough to hold all these creatures, together with
suitable environments for each of them to live in, keeping them all
separated so they don't kill and eat each other. And then provide room and
an environment for many hundreds of millions of known species of insects,
plants, molds etc. on this planet?
4. Where did they house all of the new born during this ten month
escapade?
5. In addition, the ship would have to carry a TEN MONTHS supply of food
and fresh water for the people and thousands of animals for them to survive.
What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone
extinct. How did they dispose of the thousands of tons of feces? It must
have been one stinking ship!
6. Now according to the Bible the earth was flooded for ten months. This
would kill off all the vegetation. What did the animals eat for an
additional year or more after the flood subsided?
7. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove
returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out
again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive
the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't
germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11.
8. And according to this myth, Noah was also over 600 years old!
This is a grossly implausible tale that ranks as a greater tale than Santa
Claus, The Wizard of Oz, The Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy!
Genesis 6:6
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was
filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face
of the earth: men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and
birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."
9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he
walked with God.
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family,
because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven
[a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every
kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind
of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the
earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days
and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living
creature I have made."
6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7
And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of
birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female,
came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after
the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.
This is patently ridiculous and impossible. How could they capture and load
over three million animals in a period of seven days???
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the
second month-on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and
the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth
forty days and forty nights.
13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with
his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with
them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to
their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its
kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs
of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and
entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every
living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters
increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and
increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the
water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under
the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the
mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [, 21 Every living thing that
moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the
creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry
land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing
on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures
that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the
earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.
This of course would have also killed all the vegetation on Earth!
Genesis 7:6 (New International Version)
6 Noah was "six hundred" years old when the floodwaters came on the earth.
7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood
Genesis 8
1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that
were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters
receded.
3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and
fifty days the water had gone down,
4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on
the mountains of Ararat.
5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day
of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible
And what did they eat until all the vegetation recovered from the flood???
Genesis 9 God's Covenant with Noah
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and
increase in number and fill the earth.
2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and
all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground,
and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands.
3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you
the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand
an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an
accounting for the life of his fellow man.
Before man learned how to create a fire, he had no choice but to eat raw
meat!
Samson
Hebrew Shimshon, Israelite hero portrayed in an epic narrative in the Old
Testament (Judg. 13-16). He was a Nazirite (q.v.) and a legendary warrior
whose incredible exploits hint at the weight of Philistine pressure on
Israel during much of the early, tribal period of Israel in Canaan
(1200-1000).
Samson was claimed to possess extraordinary physical strength, and the moral
of his saga relates the disastrous loss of his power to the violation of his
Nazirite vow. Credited with remarkable exploits-e.g., the slaying of a lion
and moving the gates of Gaza-he first broke his religious promises by
feasting with a woman from the neighboring town of Timnah, who was also a
Philistine, one of Israel's mortal enemies. Other remarkable deeds follow;
e.g., his decimating the Philistines in a private war. On another occasion
he repulsed their assault on him at Gaza, where he had gone to visit a
harlot. He finally fell victim to his foes through love of Delilah, a woman
of the valley of Sorek, who beguiled him into revealing the secret of his
strength: his long Nazirite hair. As he slept, Delilah had his hair cut and
betrayed him. He was captured, blinded, and enslaved by the Philistines, but
in the end he was granted his revenge; through the return of his old
strength, he supposedly demolished the great Philistine temple of the god
Dagon, at Gaza, destroying his captors and himself (Judg.16:4-30).
A truly implausible tale!
God created a three level Universe - Heaven above, a flat World resting on
water. Genesis 1:6-10; 7:11; 8:2; 11:11-9; 19:24; 28:12-13; Exodus 20:4;
Numbers 16:30-33; Deuteronomy 33:17.
God created the Sun and the Moon on the fourth day but created light on the
first day! Genesis1:1-9; 14-19
It is claimed that the Eve, first woman, was created from one of Adam's
ribs.
Genesis 3:1-5 Men and women have the same number of ribs on each side of
their body? And in any case why would a god that has created the Universe
and everything in it need to tale rib from Adam to create Eve???
The Bibles claim that a talking snake talked Eve into eating the forbidden
fruit.
The Bibles claim that Adam lived 930 years, Seth 912 years, Enosh 905 years,
Kenan910 years, Mahalael 895 years, Jared 962 years, Methuselah 969 years;
Lamech 777 years, and Noah 950 years. Genesis 5:-31; 9:29
God commanded that every baby boy at age of eight days be circumcised.
At that time sterilization (of knives) was unknown and many died of
infection for which they new no cure. Why did this almighty and all caring
God create baby boys with foreskins on their penis that he then required to
be painfully and dangerously removed?
This all caring and loving God sent ten horrible plagues upon the Egyptians
Exodus 7:14-12:32 and in his loving generosity gave Israel the land of the
Canaanites and the Israelites slaughtered every person of seven nations.
Twenty one million, men women and innocent children, were slaughtered
according to the Bible. Exodus 12:1-2
This is a loving god???
According to the verse, Jesus was being tempted by Satan, for forty
days. Assuming that Jesus is God, we are required to believe that God
was tempted by Satan, who was created by God in the first place.
[NIV, Mark 1:12-13]
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all
the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give
you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to
him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your
God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10] If Jesus is God,
would the Devil promise him that he will give him the kingdoms of the
world when all the all kingdoms of the world were created by and already
belong to God??
======================================================
God in the Bibles classifies bats as birds when anyone with an elementary
knowledge of biology knows that bats are flying MAMMALS!
Letiviticus11:13, 19
This God can't control his temper resulting in killing thousands of people.
Numbers 11:31-35; 25:1-9
He and Moses ordered the Israelites to kill all the male and Female
Medianites who had ever had sex but to spare the young women who were
virgins and keep them for themselves to enjoy. Numbers 31:14-1
Jeremiah:16:1: The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,
2: Thou shall not take thee a wife, neither shall thou have sons or
daughters in this place.
3: For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters
that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them,
and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land;
4: They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither
shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth:
and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses
shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
5: For thus saith the LORD, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go
to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people,
saith the LORD, even loving kindness and mercies.
======================================================
According to the unerring Bible, the earth is the oldest object in the
Universe. (Genesis 1:1), snakes can talk (Genesis 3:1-5), and Man had
dominion over the dinosaurs (Genesis 1:26, 28)."
Really??? The Earth did not come into existence until 10 BILLION years after
the Universe. Man came into existence MILLIONS of years AFTER the extinction
of the Dinosaurs.
======================================================
God is satisfied with his works
[Gen 1:31]
God is dissatisfied with his works.
[Gen 6:6]
God dwells in chosen temples
[2 Chron 7:12,16]
God dwells not in temples
[Acts 7:48]
======================================================
Jesus' claimed last words on the cross, 'My God, my God, why hast thou
forsaken me?' Hardly seems like the words of a god that created and
controlled the whole world and who planned his entry and exit on earth.
More obvious nonsense!
======================================================
Additional Bible nonsense too voluminous to quote fully;
Mt.4:8: Gen. 1:6; Deut. 30.4; Job. 9:6,22:13, 26:11; PSA 75.3, 103.12;
1 Sam 2.8; Isa. 13.5, 40.21-22; Dan 4.10-11; Re. 7.1, 20.8; Psa 93:1, 96:10,
105.5Job. 22.14; Rev. 6.14; Acts 10:11; Rev. 6:13, 8:14; Mat. 2:9; Gen 1:16;
Lev.19.27, 11.7,10-12: Mat. 5:17-19; Luke 16:17; Lev. 19.19; Luke 16:1-9;
Amos 3:6; Isa. 45:7; Lev, 18.22, 20.13; Deut. 13.6; Judges 14.20; 1 Sam
16:21-23, 18.1-3; Sam 1:26, 13:3, 15:37, 16:16-17: Mat. 2:13-15; Luke 2:1-7,
21; Gen. 11.6, 18:21, 27:33; Exod. 9:14, 12:12; Num 33.4; Deut. 3.23; Exod.
18:11; Eccl. 9.5-6, 9:10; Job 7.9-10, 13:28, 14:1-2, 14:1-2, 10-12, 21; Prov
2:18-19; Eccl. 10:17, 17:27, 28, 30, 19.3, 44:9; wisdom 2:1-5
This is just a sampling of ridiculous Bible tales. The Bibles are obviously
a mixture of fiction, fables, folklore and pure nonsense.
And these Bibles were dictated by God??? Then this God must be a demented
idiot.
TomP
"Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eGoth.813$p%6....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
> "0" <0...@john-14-6.info> wrote in message
> news:3l5th.49509$oA1....@newsfe19.lga...
>> Historical Proofs
>>
>> The third area in which probability plays a crucial role in determining
>> and
>> sustaining truth concerns historical facts. How do we know Abraham
>> Lincoln, Napoleon Bonaparte, Julius Caesar, Siddhartha Gautama (the
>> Buddha), Jesus Christ, or any other historical figure ever lived? How do
>> we
>> know the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620? How do we know
>> Joan of Arc was burned at the stake in 1431? None of these events can be
>> confirmed by science because they are not repeatable and observable
>> events. Yet we believe all to be historical facts. Why? Because they are
>> substantiated by probability evidence.
>
> in 1534
Bill, Bill, Bill . . .can't you atheists get anything right? When was the
printing press invented? Hint: It was some years before 1534. Don't you
atheist ninnies ever look up anything before you post your nincompoopery?
> are confirmed by dozens and thousands of printed papers by numerous
> independent
> authors and reporters.
Please show us the "dozens and thousands of printed papers by numerous
independent authors and reporters" of the proceedings of the Constitutional
Convention of 1787.
There are only three accounts. None is verbatim. Not precisely "confirmed
by dozens and thousands of printed papers by numerous independent authors
and reporters," are they?
>
> Ancient documents like the Bibles are of questionable veracity because
> they are copies
> of copies with NO ORIGINALS in existence to verify their authenticity.
>
There are "NO ORIGINALS in existence to verify their authenticity" of
Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Timaeus, Polybius, Julius Caesar, Tacitus,
Pliny, Dio Cassius, Plutarch, Suetonius, or just about any other author from
classical antiquity you can name.
And a pretty good case can be made that codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus may
well be original manuscripts of the first Christian Bible. Prove one or both
of these manuscripts is not the first Christian Bible ever produced.
Prove that P. Oxy. 4404 is not an original of the Gospel of Matthew. Prove
that P. Egerton 2 is not the original of what is now called the Egerton
Gospel. Prove that Gr. P. 457 is not the original manuscript of the Gospel
according to John.
>
> The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand.
Hell, Bill M., everything you post is "a foundation of quicksand." You get
the most elementary facts and premises wrong and then you construct
far-ranging conclusions on your false premises. Didn't anyone ever tell you
that true conclusions cannot be founded in false premises?
> There are NO ORIGINALS in existence.
Prove that. Bet you can't.
> Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are available
> are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable veracity. The
> books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the invention of
> the printing press.
So, in your feeble brain no event occurred or human being existed or did or
said anything before the invention of the printing press?
Are you truly such a nincompoop as to believe your own nincompoopery here?
This post of yours, Bill M, is as asinine as your defense of the ninnies who
claimed (falsely) that Thomas Jefferson was an atheist.
The remainder of Bill M's nincompoopery snipped . . .
ShellStockTrader
" TomP" <th_o_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45b688d0$0$390$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Your circular reasoning still fails to prove anything about your ghosts,
gods or delusional thoughts.
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme
being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable
of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson
(letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)
Mu
> If Jesus was God, why did he not leave behind an authentic record of his
> rules and commands?
Why would He have to? Belief is not driven by evidence that is concrete in
terms of scientific process. You may require such, that is your burden to
bear and that is what will forever separate you from Christ.
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Kurt Gavin
Mu
> Andrew, you're doing the mu thing again?
Is this moronic behavior a genetic predisposition or do you truly see value
in making an ass out of yourself?
Ever thought before you post these Gavin truisms to look at the Google
archives to see if you will be judged as fool or fruitcake.....or both in
this case?
Maybe you simply enjoy self-degrading commentary. The only thing I am sure
of is that you're mentally deranged, yes, I am sure of that. No one can
fake it over the years as well as you have, no one.
Carry on, Mu = Chung, as you wish.
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Mark K. Bilbo
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:43:00 GMT, Kurt Gavin wrote:
>
>> Andrew, you're doing the mu thing again?
>
> Is this moronic behavior a genetic predisposition or do you truly see value
> in making an ass out of yourself?
>
> Ever thought before you post these Gavin truisms to look at the Google
> archives to see if you will be judged as fool or fruitcake.....or both in
> this case?
>
> Maybe you simply enjoy self-degrading commentary. The only thing I am sure
> of is that you're mentally deranged, yes, I am sure of that. No one can
> fake it over the years as well as you have, no one.
>
> Carry on, Mu = Chung, as you wish.
How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because
if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather
than that of blindfolded Fear"
- Thomas Jefferson
Kurt Gavin
Kurt Gavin
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:6fadnaqbCtZi_yrY...@giganews.com...
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 02:22:20 -0500, Mu wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:43:00 GMT, Kurt Gavin wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew, you're doing the mu thing again?
>>
>> Is this moronic behavior a genetic predisposition or do you truly see
>> value
>> in making an ass out of yourself?
>>
>> Ever thought before you post these Gavin truisms to look at the Google
>> archives to see if you will be judged as fool or fruitcake.....or both in
>> this case?
>>
>> Maybe you simply enjoy self-degrading commentary. The only thing I am
>> sure
>> of is that you're mentally deranged, yes, I am sure of that. No one can
>> fake it over the years as well as you have, no one.
>>
>> Carry on, Mu = Chung, as you wish.
>
> How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
What's next, jebus-moo?
LOL
Mu
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:43:00 GMT, Kurt Gavin wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew, you're doing the mu thing again?
>>
>> Is this moronic behavior a genetic predisposition or do you truly see value
>> in making an ass out of yourself?
>>
>> Ever thought before you post these Gavin truisms to look at the Google
>> archives to see if you will be judged as fool or fruitcake.....or both in
>> this case?
>>
>> Maybe you simply enjoy self-degrading commentary. The only thing I am sure
>> of is that you're mentally deranged, yes, I am sure of that. No one can
>> fake it over the years as well as you have, no one.
>>
>> Carry on, Mu = Chung, as you wish.
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:45:35 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
> How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
And along comes Gavin's playmate, Moron Number 2.
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TomP
"ShellStockTrader" <spam...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:J8wth.50481$oA1....@newsfe19.lga...
believe you identified in my response to the atheist ninny Bill M's
nincompoopery? Bet you can't, "ShellStockTrader," but I eagerly await your
efforts.
Never tried to prove anything about any ghosts, and I am pretty sure I don't
possess any ghosts. What is your point? Is your point that you think
Thomas Jefferson was an atheist?
Do you think true conclusions can be based on false premises,
"ShellStockTrader"?
The atheist twit "Bill M" always runs away when he is challenged, so I never
expect a response from a coward such as him. Can you answer any of the
questions I posed, "ShellStockTrader"?
Or are you ninny enough to believe the nincompoopery Bill M posts? Do you
believe the printing press was invented in 1534, "ShellStockTrader"?
> "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme
> being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the
> fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas
> Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)
>
Oh goody, "ShellStockTrader"! I just love it when some atheist or
fundamentalist nincompoop who obviously hasn't read Jefferson tries to quote
Jefferson at me. Much like yourself. You see, "ShellStockTrader," I have
read hundreds, maybe thousands, of texts written by Jefferson, and many of
the other founders of the United States. And I just happen to have a book
in front of me. This book is "Lester J., Capon, editor, "The
Adams-Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas
Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams," Chapel Hill, NC: University of
North Carolina Press, 1987. The letter you tried to quote from appears on
pages 591-594. You should read it some time. As it is obvious you have not
read the entire letter, or else you presume I have not and you can somehow
slip by that out of context quote you posted.
By the way, "ShellStockTrader," the sentence immediately preceding the one
you quoted reads: "The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines
of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have
perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely
incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words." And the
sentence immediately following the one you quoted reads: "But we may hope
with the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will
do away all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and
genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors."
Gosh, "ShellStockTrader," there goes Jefferson calling Jesus Christ "the
most venerated reformer of human errors." Does that mean Jefferson
venerated Jesus Christ? Yes, indeed "ShellStockTrader," that is exactly
what Jefferson wrote. Bet you weren't trying to prove that Jefferson
venerated Jesus Christ by posting that quote, were you? See what context
does, "ShellStockTrader"?
Is that quote of yours from the same Thomas Jefferson who wrote: "He was
indeed an atheist which I can never be . . ."? Read that again,
"ShellStockTrader." "He was indeed an atheist which I can never be . . ."
The sentence I just quoted is the third sentence in Thomas Jefferson's
letter to John Adams of April 11, 1823. Gosh, "ShellStockTrader," that's
the very same letter you attempted to quote from. And Jefferson explicitly
and categorically denies he was ever an atheist. And there are several
other goodies in this same letter that really do obliterate several common
use net atheist misunderstandings about Jefferson. Don't you wish you had
read the whole letter before you posted? As opposed to whatever atheist or
infidel web site you purloined that alleged quote from. Bet the web site
you snagged that quote from didn't bother to include Jefferson's explicit
rejection of atheism I quoted above. Did it, "ShellStockTrader"?
Care to guess what the fourth sentence reads in that same letter you quoted
from? Read on and learn, "ShellStockTrader." "The being described in his
5. points is not the God whom you and I acknoledge and adore, the Creator
and benevolent governor of the world; but a demon of malignant spirit."
Whoopsie! Golly, "ShellStockTrader," in that single sentence Jefferson
explicitly and unequivocally states that he "acknoledges" [sic] the same God
as John Adams. (Keep reading, because I will quote the last paragraph of
this letter, wherein Jefferson himself tells us exactly who this God is.
Bet you didn't read that paragraph on your atheist web page, did you?)
Jefferson also unequivocally and with exactitude claims to "adore" that same
God. That God Jefferson declares he acknowledged and adored is the
Judeo-Christian God, "ShellStockTrader."
But wait, there's more, "ShellStockTrader"! Jefferson also states that this
God he acknowledged and adored created the world. Gosh, that is pretty much
a Judeo-Christian concept, isn't it, "ShellStockTrader"?
But wait again, there's even more, "ShellStockTrader"! Jefferson also wrote
that this God he (Jefferson) acknowledged, adored, and credited with
creating the world, but this God also governs the world. Gosh,
"ShellStockTrader," isn't the Christian God considered by many Christian
sects to intervene in human affairs? And Jefferson tells us he believed in
an interventionist God.
But wait, there is even more, "ShellStockTrader"! My oh my, what a great
value! You picked a quote from a very long letter in which much of
Jefferson's theology is laid right out. Bet you didn't know that, did you,
"ShellStockTrader"? Jefferson also wrote at length in this letter on the
requirement for a first cause, which according to Jefferson was God.
Jefferson then quotes from the New Testament in Greek, and from Origen and
Tertullian in Latin, and again from John's Gospel in Greek and write one his
(Jefferson's) extraordinarily long paragraphs interpreting these passages in
which he essentially argues that his religious faith and belief in God is
based in reason as opposed to revelation, a notion not original to
Jefferson, or even the Enlightenment. And then we come to the last
paragraph, which I quote in its entirety.
"So much for your (John Adams') quotation of Calvin's 'mon dieu! jusqu'a
quand' in which, when addressed to the God of Jesus, and our God, I join you
cordially, and await his (God's) time and will with more readiness than
reluctance. May we meet there again, in Congress, with our antient
Colleagues, and receive with them the seal of approbation 'Well done, good
and faithful servants'." (Bet you didn't find that paragraph on your atheist
web site, did you, "ShellStockTrader"?)
Wow, "ShellStockTrader"! Jefferson unequivocally and explicitly declares
that his God is the "God of Jesus." That pretty much settles the issue of
which God Jefferson believed in, worshipped, and believed governed the
world.
But wait, there is even more, "ShellStockTrader"! Jefferson also exposed
his belief in life after death and that human consciousness survives death
and proceeds into a life after death. Jefferson also believed that he would
be judged in his life after death, and believed his God would judge him
favorably and permit Jefferson to meet his colleagues from the Continental
Congresses in the after life.
You seem to have opened a can of worms here, "ShellStockTrader," which is
not at all favorable to the rather juvenile notions prevalent among certain
atheists on use net that Jefferson did not believe in the Judeo-Christian
God and many other doctrines of Judaism and Christianity. Want to quote
some more Jefferson to me? How about Ben Franklin? Tom Paine? How about
James Madison? Or Alexander Hamilton? John Adams? Not an atheist among
them. Nope, not one. If you think you can make a case for any of the
founding fathers being atheist, in the words of Al Bundy, "let's rock,"
"ShellStockTrader." I welcome the challenge. But remember, some of us have
actually read the texts these men wrote, and not the highly edited and out
of context drivel found on most atheist and infidel web pages. Much like the
nincompoopery you posted, "ShellStockTrader."
Kurt Gavin
>
>
>>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:43:00 GMT, Kurt Gavin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andrew, you're doing the mu thing again?
>>>
>>> Is this moronic behavior a genetic predisposition or do you truly see
>>> value
>>> in making an ass out of yourself?
>>>
>>> Ever thought before you post these Gavin truisms to look at the Google
>>> archives to see if you will be judged as fool or fruitcake.....or both
>>> in
>>> this case?
>>>
>>> Maybe you simply enjoy self-degrading commentary. The only thing I am
>>> sure
>>> of is that you're mentally deranged, yes, I am sure of that. No one can
>>> fake it over the years as well as you have, no one.
>>>
>>> Carry on, Mu = Chung, as you wish.
>
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:45:35 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>
>> How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
>
> And along comes Gavin's playmate, Moron Number 2.
Andrew, it is YOU who is judged to be both fool AND fruitcake....
...and spammer, and probably pervert.
"Mu" at Gmail INDEED ;-)))))
How is Tedi Haggard these days?
Can he still afford your services?
aversiveness
On Jan 23, 5:40 pm, " TomP" <th_o_m_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote in messagenews:eGoth.813$p%6....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
> > "0" <0...@john-14-6.info> wrote in message
> >news:3l5th.49509$oA1....@newsfe19.lga...
> >> Historical Proofs
>
> >> The third area in which probability plays a crucial role in determining
> >> and
> >> sustaining truth concerns historical facts. How do we know Abraham
> >> Lincoln, Napoleon Bonaparte, Julius Caesar, Siddhartha Gautama (the
> >> Buddha), Jesus Christ, or any other historical figure ever lived? How do
> >> we
> >> know the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620? How do we know
> >> Joan of Arc was burned at the stake in 1431? None of these events can be
> >> confirmed by science because they are not repeatable and observable
> >> events. Yet we believe all to be historical facts. Why? Because they are
> >> substantiated by probability evidence.
>
> > All of the events which occured since the invention of the printing press
> > in 1534
>
> Bill, Bill, Bill . . .can't you atheists get anything right? When was the
> printing press invented? Hint: It was some years before 1534.
Bill may have had that date in his head as the year Martin Luther's
translation of the bible appeared. The printing press dates to 1447.
These bits, of course, are irrelevant to Bill's larger point.
> Don't you
> atheist ninnies ever look up anything before you post your nincompoopery?
>
Sweeping ad hom noted.
> > are confirmed by dozens and thousands of printed papers by numerous
> > independent
> > authors and reporters.
>
> Please show us the "dozens and thousands of printed papers by numerous
> independent authors and reporters" of the proceedings of the Constitutional
> Convention of 1787.
>
Hmm.... but the 'event's existence (occurence, actually) is not in
question. And the outcome of the event does exist. Should someone
have questioned the validity of the outcome on the premise of the event
never occurred, then it was testable at the time by witnesses. So I
don't think this is quite analogous to testing veracity of the bible as
a record of events.
Looks like a red herring.
> There are only three accounts. None is verbatim. Not precisely "confirmed
> by dozens and thousands of printed papers by numerous independent authors
> and reporters," are they?
>
> > Ancient documents like the Bibles are of questionable veracity because
> > they are copies
> > of copies with NO ORIGINALS in existence to verify their authenticity.
>
> There are "NO ORIGINALS in existence to verify their authenticity" of
> Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Timaeus, Polybius, Julius Caesar, Tacitus,
> Pliny, Dio Cassius, Plutarch, Suetonius, or just about any other author from
> classical antiquity you can name.
>
Red herring.
> And a pretty good case can be made that codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus may
> well be original manuscripts of the first Christian Bible. Prove one or both
> of these manuscripts is not the first Christian Bible ever produced.
>
> Prove that P. Oxy. 4404 is not an original of the Gospel of Matthew. Prove
> that P. Egerton 2 is not the original of what is now called the Egerton
> Gospel. Prove that Gr. P. 457 is not the original manuscript of the Gospel
> according to John.
>
More red herring. You do like fish.
>
>
> > The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand.Hell,
>
> Bill M., everything you post is "a foundation of quicksand." You get
> the most elementary facts and premises wrong and then you construct
> far-ranging conclusions on your false premises. Didn't anyone ever tell you
> that true conclusions cannot be founded in false premises?
>
So, so far your counter argument consists of picking on a date error,
and throwing red herring at him?
> > There are NO ORIGINALS in existence.
>
> Prove that. Bet you can't.
>
True. The correct statement that Bill should have used is that there
are no KNOWN originals in existence.
> > Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are available
> > are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable veracity. The
> > books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the invention of
> > the printing press.
>
> So, in your feeble brain no event occurred or human being existed or did or
> said anything before the invention of the printing press?
>
Hmm... that doesn't seem to be what he said. You wouldn't be trying to
put words in his mouth, now would you? That would be disingenuous.
> Are you truly such a nincompoop as to believe your own nincompoopery here?
Ad hom.
>
> This post of yours, Bill M, is as asinine as your defense of the ninnies who
> claimed (falsely) that Thomas Jefferson was an atheist.
>
> The remainder of Bill M's nincompoopery snipped . . .
A truly stellar rebuttal, Mr. TomP. Well done, ol' chap!
Brilliant strategy of, rather than responding to the challenge on point
with any proof of the veracity of the bible - instead throwing not just
one, but many, many redherring challenges of your own to Bill to prove
the veracity of numerous things whose veracity is either a) not in
question or b) not relevant.
I have to honestly say I would never have thought of such a rebuttal
strategy! And you managed to even slip in a couple of ad homs as well!
Christopher A.Lee
On 24 Jan 2007 14:43:13 -0800, "aversiveness" <aversi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Jan 23, 5:40 pm, " TomP" <th_o_m_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote in messagenews:eGoth.813$p%6....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> > "0" <0...@john-14-6.info> wrote in message
>> >news:3l5th.49509$oA1....@newsfe19.lga...
>> >> Historical Proofs
>>
>> >> The third area in which probability plays a crucial role in determining
>> >> and
>> >> sustaining truth concerns historical facts. How do we know Abraham
>> >> Lincoln, Napoleon Bonaparte, Julius Caesar, Siddhartha Gautama (the
>> >> Buddha), Jesus Christ, or any other historical figure ever lived? How do
>> >> we
>> >> know the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620? How do we know
>> >> Joan of Arc was burned at the stake in 1431? None of these events can be
>> >> confirmed by science because they are not repeatable and observable
>> >> events. Yet we believe all to be historical facts. Why? Because they are
>> >> substantiated by probability evidence.
Apart from Jesus they're all conclusions from the historical process.
Which includes evidence from multiple and diverse sources,
corroboration etc. Not just beliefs. While Jesus is a belief, a
presumption looking for that kind of evidence and finding nothing
outside religious tradition.
Don't believers who use this invalid comparison ever think before
insulting our intelligence with it?
If there were the same kind of evidence for an historical Jesus as
there is for the things and people mentioned he might have a point.
But there isn't. And the use of belief is dishonest as well - it
equated conclusion from evidence with a presumption for which there is
no evidence to support it.
>> > All of the events which occured since the invention of the printing press
>> > in 1534
>>
>> Bill, Bill, Bill . . .can't you atheists get anything right? When was the
>> printing press invented? Hint: It was some years before 1534.
>
>Bill may have had that date in his head as the year Martin Luther's
>translation of the bible appeared. The printing press dates to 1447.
>These bits, of course, are irrelevant to Bill's larger point.
Looks that way.
>> Don't you
>> atheist ninnies ever look up anything before you post your nincompoopery?
More of TomP's nastiness.
Mark K. Bilbo
>
>
>>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:43:00 GMT, Kurt Gavin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andrew, you're doing the mu thing again?
>>>
>>> Is this moronic behavior a genetic predisposition or do you truly see value
>>> in making an ass out of yourself?
>>>
>>> Ever thought before you post these Gavin truisms to look at the Google
>>> archives to see if you will be judged as fool or fruitcake.....or both in
>>> this case?
>>>
>>> Maybe you simply enjoy self-degrading commentary. The only thing I am sure
>>> of is that you're mentally deranged, yes, I am sure of that. No one can
>>> fake it over the years as well as you have, no one.
>>>
>>> Carry on, Mu = Chung, as you wish.
>
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:45:35 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>
>> How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
>
> And<SLAP>
Bad troll!
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards,
witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling
from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical,
absurd and primitive stories, and you say that *we* are the
ones that need help?" - Jon Stoll
Mu
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:45:35 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>>
>>> How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
>>
>> And here comes Gavin's playmate, Moron Number 2
>
> Bad troll!
*PLONK*
Fair is fair.
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Cary Kittrell
>
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:23:05 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:45:35 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
> >>
> >>> How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
> >>
> >> And here comes Gavin's playmate, Moron Number 2
> >
> > Bad troll!
>
> *PLONK*
PLONK?
Geez, that doesn't mean you're killfiling Mark, does it?
Hope not, because Andrew has told us -- I am not making this
up -- that killfiling someone is acting on the thought
of killing them. and that for that reason Jesus may
well turn you away.
No, really. He said that.
-- cary
aversiveness
is) then he is only 1/33 guilty of the sin?
Mark K. Bilbo
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:23:05 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>
>>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:45:35 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>>>
>>>> How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
>>>
>>> And here comes Gavin's playmate, Moron Number 2
>>
>> Bad troll!
>
> *PLONK*
Yuk! I am not picking that up...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys
on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING
like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
Robibnikoff
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:23:05 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>
>>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:45:35 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>>>
>>>> How many personalities you got in that head now Chunky?
>>>
>>> And here comes Gavin's playmate, Moron Number 2
>>
>> Bad troll!
>
> *PLONK*
>
> Fair is fair.
Oooooh! Now you did it!
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
Cary Kittrell
Actually, I don't think Andrew does the sock puppet thing. His
style is so distinctive -- stereotyped, humorless, highly
repetitious -- that I'd be surprised if he is capable of
writing like, say, Mu.
-- cary