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When Atheists Claim, "I lack belief in a god", what is it they are really saying?
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Calvin Ramsey
Sep 3, 2012, 7:26:30 PM9/3/12
to
The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
In discussions with them, they tell me they lack belief in God the way
they lack belief in invisible pink unicorns. In other words, they have
no position, take no intellectual action, and have no belief or unbelief
on the matter concerning God. To them it is a non-issue. Though this
may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once you are introduced
to an idea, you cannot stay neutral about it. You invariably make a
judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can
brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject
it, or do something in between. But you cannot return to a lack of
belief position, if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual
commitment or non-action concerning belief.
In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see,
if they say they have no position by saying they lack belief, then their
position is not open to attack and examination, and they can quietly
remain atheists.
The problem for atheists, however, is that atheism is coming under more
serious attack by Christians and others who recognize its problems and
are exposing them. Without a doubt, there are far more people in the
world who believe in God (or a god) than don't, and more and more
Christians are tackling atheism as an untenable position. If the
majority believe, that doesn't make it right; but the increase in
examination of atheism has made it more difficult for atheists to defend
their position. This also explains why atheists, it seems, are becoming
more aggressive in their attacks on theism in its different forms. There
is an intellectual battle being waged, and both defensive and offensive
measures are being taken on both sides. In the end, the truth will be
known and atheism will become extinct.
(by Matt Slick, "Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry")
In discussions with them, they tell me they lack belief in God the way
they lack belief in invisible pink unicorns. In other words, they have
no position, take no intellectual action, and have no belief or unbelief
on the matter concerning God. To them it is a non-issue. Though this
may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once you are introduced
to an idea, you cannot stay neutral about it. You invariably make a
judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can
brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject
it, or do something in between. But you cannot return to a lack of
belief position, if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual
commitment or non-action concerning belief.
In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see,
if they say they have no position by saying they lack belief, then their
position is not open to attack and examination, and they can quietly
remain atheists.
The problem for atheists, however, is that atheism is coming under more
serious attack by Christians and others who recognize its problems and
are exposing them. Without a doubt, there are far more people in the
world who believe in God (or a god) than don't, and more and more
Christians are tackling atheism as an untenable position. If the
majority believe, that doesn't make it right; but the increase in
examination of atheism has made it more difficult for atheists to defend
their position. This also explains why atheists, it seems, are becoming
more aggressive in their attacks on theism in its different forms. There
is an intellectual battle being waged, and both defensive and offensive
measures are being taken on both sides. In the end, the truth will be
known and atheism will become extinct.
(by Matt Slick, "Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry")
raven1
Sep 4, 2012, 8:52:26 AM9/4/12
to
On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 19:26:30 -0400, Calvin Ramsey
<calvin...@live.com> wrote:
>Without a doubt, there are far more people in the
>world who believe in God (or a god) than don't, and more and more
>Christians are tackling atheism as an untenable position.
And failing miserably, because until they can produce evidence that
<calvin...@live.com> wrote:
>Without a doubt, there are far more people in the
>world who believe in God (or a god) than don't, and more and more
>Christians are tackling atheism as an untenable position.
their beliefs correspond to reality, atheism remains the logical
default position.
Malcolm McMahon
Sep 4, 2012, 10:00:46 AM9/4/12
to
On Tuesday, 4 September 2012 00:26:29 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
>
> In discussions with them, they tell me they lack belief in God the way
>
> they lack belief in invisible pink unicorns. In other words, they have
>
> no position, take no intellectual action, and have no belief or unbelief
>
> on the matter concerning God. To them it is a non-issue. Though this
>
> may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once you are introduced
>
> to an idea, you cannot stay neutral about it. You invariably make a
>
> judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can
>
> brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject
>
> it, or do something in between. But you cannot return to a lack of
>
> belief position, if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual
>
> commitment or non-action concerning belief.
>
>
No, it's more that we've examined (often at considerable length) the proposition that God exists and have concluded that there's no convincing evidence, while admitting that an omnipotent God or Gods are, by definition, capable of existing without providing such evidence.
> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
>
> In discussions with them, they tell me they lack belief in God the way
>
> they lack belief in invisible pink unicorns. In other words, they have
>
> no position, take no intellectual action, and have no belief or unbelief
>
> on the matter concerning God. To them it is a non-issue. Though this
>
> may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once you are introduced
>
> to an idea, you cannot stay neutral about it. You invariably make a
>
> judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can
>
> brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject
>
> it, or do something in between. But you cannot return to a lack of
>
> belief position, if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual
>
> commitment or non-action concerning belief.
>
>
The weak atheist position does not result from not considering the question, but rather from considering the question and concluding that it's not possible to answer it definitively one way or the other but, that in the absence of evidence, it doesn't make sense to act as if so extraordinarily improbable a claim were true.
Calvin Ramsey
Sep 5, 2012, 6:19:06 AM9/5/12
to
The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
In discussions with them, they tell me they lack belief in God the way
they lack belief in invisible pink unicorns. In other words, they have
no position, take no intellectual action, and have no belief or unbelief
on the matter concerning God. To them it is a non-issue. Though this
may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once you are introduced
to an idea, you cannot stay neutral about it. You invariably make a
judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can
brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject
it, or do something in between. But you cannot return to a lack of
belief position, if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual
commitment or non-action concerning belief.
In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see,
if they say they have no position by saying they lack belief, then their
position is not open to attack and examination, and they can quietly
remain atheists.
The problem for atheists, however, is that atheism is coming under more
serious attack by Christians and others who recognize its problems and
are exposing them. Without a doubt, there are far more people in the
facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see,
if they say they have no position by saying they lack belief, then their
position is not open to attack and examination, and they can quietly
remain atheists.
The problem for atheists, however, is that atheism is coming under more
serious attack by Christians and others who recognize its problems and
world who believe in God (or a god) than don't, and more and more
Malcolm McMahon
Sep 5, 2012, 6:33:56 AM9/5/12
to
On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
>
And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance any discussion.
> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
>
None of it is true. Actually the Atheist position has become easier and easier to defend, partly because of the advancement of scientific understanding, but mostly because, at least in Europe, Theists are being prevented from using their traditional physical violence as a response difficult to defend against by rhetoric.
A couple of centuries back, there were a lot of aspects of the world that were difficult to explain from an atheist perspective. Virtually all of these things are now completely understandable without reference to God. We had a very shoddy world-picture, where people felt the need for a god of the gaps, a God to provide a pseudo-explanation for all the gaps in scientific understanding.
The thinking man, today, knows that scientific explanations exist, even the man that doesn't know the details.
We know have a scientific understanding not only of the physical world, but even of the origins of such qualities as altruism and ethics.
The Christians may imagine that they have convincing arguments, but actually they convince only themselves. For the most part they just don't understand (and don't dare to understand) the reasoning of those they argue against.
Mitchell Holman
Sep 5, 2012, 9:06:33 AM9/5/12
to
Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in news:k278um$rif$1@dont-
email.me:
>
> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
> facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position.
Atheists don't have to defend their position.
Religionists are the ones asserting a position
without proof, remember?
email.me:
>
> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
> facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position.
Religionists are the ones asserting a position
without proof, remember?
Christopher A. Lee
Sep 5, 2012, 10:43:29 AM9/5/12
to
one we don't have that they invented for us.
Budikka666
Sep 5, 2012, 5:22:46 PM9/5/12
to
On Sep 3, 6:08 am, Calvin Ramsey <calvinram...@live.com> wrote:
> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
It's not a "common position", it's *the* defintion of atheism -
> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
lacking belief in gods. You're seriously out of your depth if you
think it's just a "common position".
But before you can attack atheism, you need to estbalish your own
position, because atheism is the default position until and unless
there is solid evdience suggesting that there actually are gods. Got
that?
So why don't you and I formally debate your position that this god or
gods exist(s)?
Why don't you post your best five "evidences" for this creator god of
yours: either positive scientific evidence demonstrating that such a
being exists, or independent objective evidence demonstrating the
same?
Because if you can't do that all you have is hot air and that's not
going to convince anyone who has functional brain cells.
So go ahead, post your evidences, and let's you and me formally debate
them right here. I'll be more than happy to defend my atheistic
position. Can you defend your theistic one?
Let's see.
That was my original message above, in two separate threads and here you
are running and hiding in yet another thread and hoping I won't find
you! lol!
If you truly have an omnipotent god to back you up, why are you so
terrified of me?
Budikka
Andrew W
Sep 6, 2012, 12:14:50 AM9/6/12
to
"Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
--
Religions breed hypocrisy and self-righteousness.
Many Christians spend more time looking down on other people than up
towards Christ.
news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>> atheists.
>>
>
> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
> any discussion.
>
It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>> atheists.
>>
>
> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
> any discussion.
>
--
Religions breed hypocrisy and self-righteousness.
Many Christians spend more time looking down on other people than up
towards Christ.
Andrew
Sep 6, 2012, 2:49:17 AM9/6/12
to
"Budikka666" wrote in message news:k28fr6$riq$1...@dont-email.me...
> On Sep 3, 6:08 am, Calvin Ramsey <calvinram...@live.com> wrote:
>
>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
>
> It's not a "common position", it's *the* defintion of atheism -
> lacking belief in gods. You're seriously out of your depth if you
> think it's just a "common position".
>
> But before you can attack atheism, you need to estbalish your own
> position, because atheism is the default position until and unless
> there is solid evdience suggesting that there actually are gods.
~ DNA ~
>
>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
>
> It's not a "common position", it's *the* defintion of atheism -
> lacking belief in gods. You're seriously out of your depth if you
> think it's just a "common position".
>
> But before you can attack atheism, you need to estbalish your own
> position, because atheism is the default position until and unless
> there is solid evdience suggesting that there actually are gods.
Devils Advocaat
Sep 6, 2012, 6:04:41 AM9/6/12
to
On 6 Sep, 07:47, "Andrew" <andrew.321re...@usa.net> wrote:
> "Budikka666" wrote in messagenews:k28fr6$riq$1...@dont-email.me...
And once again Andrew makes his feeble claim.
> "Budikka666" wrote in messagenews:k28fr6$riq$1...@dont-email.me...
Calvin Ramsey
Sep 6, 2012, 6:19:30 AM9/6/12
to
On 9/6/2012 12:14 AM, Andrew W wrote:
> "Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
>> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>>> atheists.
>>>
>>
>> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
>> any discussion.
>>
>
> It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
Who said anything about a "discussion"?
> "Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
>> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>>> atheists.
>>>
>>
>> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
>> any discussion.
>>
>
> It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
There hasn't been a "discussion" here in a.a. for years.
Look up the word "advertisement".
<smirk>
Calvin Ramsey
Sep 6, 2012, 6:32:34 AM9/6/12
to
Why am I not surprised?
Mitchell Holman
Sep 6, 2012, 8:21:38 AM9/6/12
to
Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in
news:k29u42$t5b$1...@dont-email.me:
need to defend anything.
Religionists make the claim there is a god,
therefore THEY have a position they need to defend.
Mitchell Holman
Sep 6, 2012, 8:22:43 AM9/6/12
to
Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in news:k29tbi$pl3$1@dont-
email.me:
Not when religionists end every argument with
"you just have to have faith".
What is there left to discuss after that?
email.me:
"you just have to have faith".
What is there left to discuss after that?
Malcolm McMahon
Sep 6, 2012, 8:32:08 AM9/6/12
to
Almost all atheists are "weak" atheists, in that they admit that God, is too ill-defined a concept to be disproved. Theists have learned not to make testable (and hence disprovable) predictions, at least except for some nut cultists who give dates for the end of the world (revised when the initial date has come and gone). If you keep your God concept ineffable enough you're safe from actual disproof.
And yes, we know that people hear voices in their heads, get that sensation of "immanence", but all that tells you is something about the human mind.
Disbelief really comes down to Occam's razor.
Calvin Ramsey
Sep 6, 2012, 12:44:19 PM9/6/12
to
hoping to change the subject.
I guess that's one of the reasons why I have to keep reposting it.
Eventually, you'll learn where you're wrong.
There are some people who just have to learn by osmosis.
<smirk>
Andrew W
Sep 6, 2012, 4:51:27 PM9/6/12
to
"Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
news:k29tbi$pl3$1...@dont-email.me
>
> There hasn't been a "discussion" here in a.a. for years.
>
Really.
>
> Look up the word "advertisement".
>
Then you're a spammer.
>
> <smirk>
>
<double smirk>
news:k29tbi$pl3$1...@dont-email.me
> On 9/6/2012 12:14 AM, Andrew W wrote:
>> "Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>> news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
>>> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>>>> atheists.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
>>> any discussion.
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
>
> Who said anything about a "discussion"?
>
What are newsgroups for?
>> "Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>> news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
>>> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>>>> atheists.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
>>> any discussion.
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
>
> Who said anything about a "discussion"?
>
>
> There hasn't been a "discussion" here in a.a. for years.
>
>
> Look up the word "advertisement".
>
>
> <smirk>
>
<double smirk>
Andrew W
Sep 6, 2012, 5:05:39 PM9/6/12
to
"Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
news:k29u42$t5b$1...@dont-email.me
I didn't have time to read the whole post. What was the point exactly?
You see theists made atheists. I mean the preaching in the streets by loud
theists about all of us being 'sinners' deserving 'hell' and having to
accept your 'Christ' dripping on a cross is what made loud atheists. Strong
atheists do not exist in their own right. You people made them.
So why are you surprised there are strong atheists? And why on earth would
you call it a belief system?
news:k29u42$t5b$1...@dont-email.me
You see theists made atheists. I mean the preaching in the streets by loud
theists about all of us being 'sinners' deserving 'hell' and having to
accept your 'Christ' dripping on a cross is what made loud atheists. Strong
atheists do not exist in their own right. You people made them.
So why are you surprised there are strong atheists? And why on earth would
you call it a belief system?
Budikka666
Sep 6, 2012, 6:30:29 PM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 1:47 am, "Andrew" <andrew.321re...@usa.net> wrote:
> "Budikka666" wrote in messagenews:k28fr6$riq$1...@dont-email.me...
Which you openly admitted was yet another in your long history of
juvenile LIES when you FLED from debating it with me in another
admission that your supposedly omnipotent creator is absolutely
worthless and useless.
Coward-For-Christ™ Andrew-a-Blank Ran from a simple question in SIX
THREADS simultaneously:
http://tinyurl.com/7zghp7o
http://tinyurl.com/76a8chm
http://tinyurl.com/6q3q498
http://tinyurl.com/6n2swsr
http://tinyurl.com/7rvtlyu
http://tinyurl.com/7x4m3fv
Coward-For-Christ™ Andrew-a-Blank Ran from a debate on DNA in TEN
THREADS simultaneously:
http://tinyurl.com/7zcuwsb
http://tinyurl.com/7t47anq
http://tinyurl.com/7wvegqc
http://tinyurl.com/6rg67wc
http://tinyurl.com/8yqo8fw
http://tinyurl.com/77bopo8
http://tinyurl.com/86zwhj6
http://tinyurl.com/7zlzxtd
http://tinyurl.com/7eknx73
http://tinyurl.com/6lgcwpq
Coward-For-Christ™ Andrew-a-Blank denies Christ thrice:
http://tinyurl.com/7x9c5wn
http://tinyurl.com/74h455e
http://tinyurl.com/7kl4hc7
Coward-For-Christ™ Andrew-a-Blank ran from debate:
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/7dd8ed410470f4c2?hl=en
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/e8da88e0f6b5a76b?hl=en&scoring=d&
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/245ef4c4f9f8933b?scoring=d&
Budikka
> "Budikka666" wrote in messagenews:k28fr6$riq$1...@dont-email.me...
juvenile LIES when you FLED from debating it with me in another
admission that your supposedly omnipotent creator is absolutely
worthless and useless.
Coward-For-Christ™ Andrew-a-Blank Ran from a simple question in SIX
THREADS simultaneously:
http://tinyurl.com/7zghp7o
http://tinyurl.com/76a8chm
http://tinyurl.com/6q3q498
http://tinyurl.com/6n2swsr
http://tinyurl.com/7rvtlyu
http://tinyurl.com/7x4m3fv
Coward-For-Christ™ Andrew-a-Blank Ran from a debate on DNA in TEN
THREADS simultaneously:
http://tinyurl.com/7zcuwsb
http://tinyurl.com/7t47anq
http://tinyurl.com/7wvegqc
http://tinyurl.com/6rg67wc
http://tinyurl.com/8yqo8fw
http://tinyurl.com/77bopo8
http://tinyurl.com/86zwhj6
http://tinyurl.com/7zlzxtd
http://tinyurl.com/7eknx73
http://tinyurl.com/6lgcwpq
Coward-For-Christ™ Andrew-a-Blank denies Christ thrice:
http://tinyurl.com/7x9c5wn
http://tinyurl.com/74h455e
http://tinyurl.com/7kl4hc7
Coward-For-Christ™ Andrew-a-Blank ran from debate:
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/7dd8ed410470f4c2?hl=en
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/e8da88e0f6b5a76b?hl=en&scoring=d&
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/245ef4c4f9f8933b?scoring=d&
Budikka
Calvin Ramsey
Sep 6, 2012, 7:49:13 PM9/6/12
to
On 9/6/2012 4:51 PM, Andrew W wrote:
> "Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
> news:k29tbi$pl3$1...@dont-email.me
>> On 9/6/2012 12:14 AM, Andrew W wrote:
>>> "Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
>>>> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>>>>> atheists.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
>>>> any discussion.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
>>
>> Who said anything about a "discussion"?
>>
>
> What are newsgroups for?
Show me one rational "discussion", without the repeated use of fallacies
> "Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
> news:k29tbi$pl3$1...@dont-email.me
>> On 9/6/2012 12:14 AM, Andrew W wrote:
>>> "Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
>>>> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>>>>> atheists.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
>>>> any discussion.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
>>
>> Who said anything about a "discussion"?
>>
>
> What are newsgroups for?
(http://www.nizkor.com), in the last year.
>
>>
>> There hasn't been a "discussion" here in a.a. for years.
>>
>
> Really.
Prove me wrong.
>>
>> There hasn't been a "discussion" here in a.a. for years.
>>
>
> Really.
>
>>
>> Look up the word "advertisement".
>>
>
> Then you're a spammer.
discussions, the answer is no.
I just do whatever it takes to get the most results.
Why don't you learn how to use "message filters"?
I'll give you a hint: it's very easy.
<smirk>
Calvin Ramsey
Sep 6, 2012, 7:52:18 PM9/6/12
to
On 9/6/2012 5:05 PM, Andrew W wrote:
> "Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
> news:k29u42$t5b$1...@dont-email.me
>> On 9/5/2012 10:43 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:06:33 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>> <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in
>>>> news:k278um$rif$1@dont- email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to
>>>>> avoid facing and defending the problems in their atheistic
>>>>> position.
>>>>
>>>> Atheists don't have to defend their position.
>>>>
>>>> Religionists are the ones asserting a position
>>>> without proof, remember?
>>>
>>> ..while at the same time repeatedly and nastily demanding we defend
>>> one we don't have that they invented for us.
>>
>> Both of you missed the whole point being made.
>>
>> Why am I not surprised?
>>
>
> I didn't have time to read the whole post. What was the point exactly?
I'll repost tomorrow morning. Read it again.
> "Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
> news:k29u42$t5b$1...@dont-email.me
>> On 9/5/2012 10:43 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:06:33 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>> <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in
>>>> news:k278um$rif$1@dont- email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to
>>>>> avoid facing and defending the problems in their atheistic
>>>>> position.
>>>>
>>>> Atheists don't have to defend their position.
>>>>
>>>> Religionists are the ones asserting a position
>>>> without proof, remember?
>>>
>>> ..while at the same time repeatedly and nastily demanding we defend
>>> one we don't have that they invented for us.
>>
>> Both of you missed the whole point being made.
>>
>> Why am I not surprised?
>>
>
> I didn't have time to read the whole post. What was the point exactly?
> You see theists made atheists. I mean the preaching in the streets by loud
> theists about all of us being 'sinners' deserving 'hell' and having to
> accept your 'Christ' dripping on a cross is what made loud atheists. Strong
> atheists do not exist in their own right. You people made them.
> So why are you surprised there are strong atheists? And why on earth would
> you call it a belief system?
Never mind. That was a rhetorical question. I already know why.
<smirk>
Andrew W
Sep 6, 2012, 8:09:14 PM9/6/12
to
"Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
news:k2bcvi$70a$1...@dont-email.me
> On 9/6/2012 5:05 PM, Andrew W wrote:
>> "Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
>> news:k29u42$t5b$1...@dont-email.me
>>> On 9/5/2012 10:43 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:06:33 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>> <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:k278um$rif$1@dont- email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to
>>>>>> avoid facing and defending the problems in their atheistic
>>>>>> position.
>>>>>
>>>>> Atheists don't have to defend their position.
>>>>>
>>>>> Religionists are the ones asserting a position
>>>>> without proof, remember?
>>>>
>>>> ..while at the same time repeatedly and nastily demanding we defend
>>>> one we don't have that they invented for us.
>>>
>>> Both of you missed the whole point being made.
>>>
>>> Why am I not surprised?
>>>
>>
>> I didn't have time to read the whole post. What was the point
>> exactly?
>
> I'll repost tomorrow morning. Read it again.
>
Oh please don't.
>> "Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
>> news:k29u42$t5b$1...@dont-email.me
>>> On 9/5/2012 10:43 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:06:33 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>> <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:k278um$rif$1@dont- email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to
>>>>>> avoid facing and defending the problems in their atheistic
>>>>>> position.
>>>>>
>>>>> Atheists don't have to defend their position.
>>>>>
>>>>> Religionists are the ones asserting a position
>>>>> without proof, remember?
>>>>
>>>> ..while at the same time repeatedly and nastily demanding we defend
>>>> one we don't have that they invented for us.
>>>
>>> Both of you missed the whole point being made.
>>>
>>> Why am I not surprised?
>>>
>>
>> I didn't have time to read the whole post. What was the point
>> exactly?
>
> I'll repost tomorrow morning. Read it again.
>
Surely you can summarise your point?
>
>> You see theists made atheists. I mean the preaching in the streets
>> by loud theists about all of us being 'sinners' deserving 'hell' and
>> having to accept your 'Christ' dripping on a cross is what made loud
>> atheists. Strong atheists do not exist in their own right. You
>> people made them. So why are you surprised there are strong atheists? And
>> why on earth
>> would you call it a belief system?
>
> Why do you have to make up lies?
>
> Never mind. That was a rhetorical question. I already know why.
>
> <smirk>
>
You can't handle truth and present reality, so you see everything you don't
like as lies.
This is how theists are trained by their religion.
Calvin Ramsey
Sep 7, 2012, 5:51:37 AM9/7/12
to
>
>>
>>> You see theists made atheists. I mean the preaching in the streets
>>> by loud theists about all of us being 'sinners' deserving 'hell' and
>>> having to accept your 'Christ' dripping on a cross is what made loud
>>> atheists. Strong atheists do not exist in their own right. You
>>> people made them. So why are you surprised there are strong atheists? And
>>> why on earth
>>> would you call it a belief system?
>>
>> Why do you have to make up lies?
>>
>> Never mind. That was a rhetorical question. I already know why.
>>
>> <smirk>
>>
>
> What lies?
> You can't handle truth and present reality, so you see everything you don't
> like as lies.
> This is how theists are trained by their religion.
you're a Child of Satan.
"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's
desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do
with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he
speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
--John 8:44 (ESV)
Malcolm McMahon
Sep 7, 2012, 6:34:17 AM9/7/12
to
On Thursday, 6 September 2012 17:44:19 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 9/6/2012 8:32 AM, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:32:35 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> On 9/5/2012 10:43 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:06:33 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>
> >>
>
> >>> <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in news:k278um$rif$1@dont-
>
> >>
>
> >>>> email.me:
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Atheists don't have to defend their position.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Religionists are the ones asserting a position
>
> >>
>
> >>>> without proof, remember?
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> ..while at the same time repeatedly and nastily demanding we defend
>
> >>
>
> >>> one we don't have that they invented for us.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Both of you missed the whole point being made.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Why am I not surprised?
>
> >
>
> > It's more that any point being made missed whatever it was aimed at.
>
> >
>
> > Almost all atheists are "weak" atheists, in that they admit that God, is too ill-defined a concept to be disproved. Theists have learned not to make testable (and hence disprovable) predictions, at least except for some nut cultists who give dates for the end of the world (revised when the initial date has come and gone). If you keep your God concept ineffable enough you're safe from actual disproof.
>
> >
>
> > And yes, we know that people hear voices in their heads, get that sensation of "immanence", but all that tells you is something about the human mind.
>
> >
>
> > Disbelief really comes down to Occam's razor.
>
>
>
> You either missed the main point again, or you're missing it on purpose,
Your main point seems to be that, having examined a question like the existence of God, one has some kind of moral imperative to come up with a yes or no answer, even in the absence of evidence.
> On 9/6/2012 8:32 AM, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:32:35 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> On 9/5/2012 10:43 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:06:33 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>
> >>
>
> >>> <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in news:k278um$rif$1@dont-
>
> >>
>
> >>>> email.me:
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Atheists don't have to defend their position.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Religionists are the ones asserting a position
>
> >>
>
> >>>> without proof, remember?
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> ..while at the same time repeatedly and nastily demanding we defend
>
> >>
>
> >>> one we don't have that they invented for us.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Both of you missed the whole point being made.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Why am I not surprised?
>
> >
>
> > It's more that any point being made missed whatever it was aimed at.
>
> >
>
> > Almost all atheists are "weak" atheists, in that they admit that God, is too ill-defined a concept to be disproved. Theists have learned not to make testable (and hence disprovable) predictions, at least except for some nut cultists who give dates for the end of the world (revised when the initial date has come and gone). If you keep your God concept ineffable enough you're safe from actual disproof.
>
> >
>
> > And yes, we know that people hear voices in their heads, get that sensation of "immanence", but all that tells you is something about the human mind.
>
> >
>
> > Disbelief really comes down to Occam's razor.
>
>
>
> You either missed the main point again, or you're missing it on purpose,
Nobody but you believes such nonsense.
Therefore your argument is simply based on bad logic.
Calvin Ramsey
Sep 7, 2012, 6:40:18 AM9/7/12
to
On 9/7/2012 6:34 AM, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Thursday, 6 September 2012 17:44:19 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 9/6/2012 8:32 AM, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:32:35 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> On 9/5/2012 10:43 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:06:33 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in news:k278um$rif$1@dont-
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> email.me:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Atheists don't have to defend their position.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Religionists are the ones asserting a position
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> without proof, remember?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> ..while at the same time repeatedly and nastily demanding we defend
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> one we don't have that they invented for us.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Both of you missed the whole point being made.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Why am I not surprised?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> It's more that any point being made missed whatever it was aimed at.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Almost all atheists are "weak" atheists, in that they admit that God, is too ill-defined a concept to be disproved. Theists have learned not to make testable (and hence disprovable) predictions, at least except for some nut cultists who give dates for the end of the world (revised when the initial date has come and gone). If you keep your God concept ineffable enough you're safe from actual disproof.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> And yes, we know that people hear voices in their heads, get that sensation of "immanence", but all that tells you is something about the human mind.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Disbelief really comes down to Occam's razor.
>>
>>
>>
> On Thursday, 6 September 2012 17:44:19 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 9/6/2012 8:32 AM, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:32:35 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> On 9/5/2012 10:43 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:06:33 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Calvin Ramsey <calvin...@live.com> wrote in news:k278um$rif$1@dont-
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> email.me:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Atheists don't have to defend their position.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Religionists are the ones asserting a position
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> without proof, remember?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> ..while at the same time repeatedly and nastily demanding we defend
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> one we don't have that they invented for us.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Both of you missed the whole point being made.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Why am I not surprised?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> It's more that any point being made missed whatever it was aimed at.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Almost all atheists are "weak" atheists, in that they admit that God, is too ill-defined a concept to be disproved. Theists have learned not to make testable (and hence disprovable) predictions, at least except for some nut cultists who give dates for the end of the world (revised when the initial date has come and gone). If you keep your God concept ineffable enough you're safe from actual disproof.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> And yes, we know that people hear voices in their heads, get that sensation of "immanence", but all that tells you is something about the human mind.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Disbelief really comes down to Occam's razor.
>>
>>
>>
>> You either missed the main point again, or you're missing it on purpose, hoping to change the subject.
>
>
> Your main point seems to be that, having examined a question like the existence of God, one has some kind of moral imperative to come up with a yes or no answer, even in the absence of evidence.
Wrong.
You really are trying to change the subject, aren't you?
You might as well forget that.
Not gonna happen.
Don Martin
Sep 7, 2012, 7:27:07 AM9/7/12
to
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:09:14 +1000, "Andrew W"
<remove_...@optusnet.com.au> wrote to Calvin Ramsey:
>> I'll repost tomorrow morning. Read it again.
>>
>
>Oh please don't.
>Surely you can summarise your point?
He is never content with boring others only once.
--
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
<remove_...@optusnet.com.au> wrote to Calvin Ramsey:
>> I'll repost tomorrow morning. Read it again.
>>
>
>Oh please don't.
>Surely you can summarise your point?
--
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
Malcolm McMahon
Sep 7, 2012, 7:42:10 AM9/7/12
to
On Friday, 7 September 2012 11:40:16 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> > Your main point seems to be that, having examined a question like the existence of God, one has some kind of moral imperative to come up with a yes or no answer, even in the absence of evidence.
>
>
>
>
>
> Wrong.
>
Then what is your "main point" because that's all I get from your perennial post.
>
> > Your main point seems to be that, having examined a question like the existence of God, one has some kind of moral imperative to come up with a yes or no answer, even in the absence of evidence.
>
>
>
>
>
> Wrong.
>
>
>
> You really are trying to change the subject, aren't you?
>
No, I'm groping to find what the subject is supposed to be.
>
> You really are trying to change the subject, aren't you?
>
>
>
>
> Not gonna happen.
Yes, it's beginning to look like that. There _is_ no subject to change.
Yap
Sep 7, 2012, 8:24:34 AM9/7/12
to
On Sep 4, 7:26 am, Calvin Ramsey <calvinram...@live.com> wrote:
> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of atheists.
> In discussions with them, they tell me they lack belief in God the way
> they lack belief in invisible pink unicorns. In other words, they have
> no position, take no intellectual action, and have no belief or unbelief
> on the matter concerning God. To them it is a non-issue. Though this
> may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once you are introduced
> to an idea, you cannot stay neutral about it. You invariably make a
> judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can
> brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject
> it, or do something in between. But you cannot return to a lack of
> belief position, if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual
> commitment or non-action concerning belief.
>
> they lack belief in invisible pink unicorns. In other words, they have
> no position, take no intellectual action, and have no belief or unbelief
> on the matter concerning God. To them it is a non-issue. Though this
> may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once you are introduced
> to an idea, you cannot stay neutral about it. You invariably make a
> judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can
> brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject
> it, or do something in between. But you cannot return to a lack of
> belief position, if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual
> commitment or non-action concerning belief.
>
> In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid
> facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see,
> if they say they have no position by saying they lack belief, then their
> position is not open to attack and examination, and they can quietly
> remain atheists.
>
> The problem for atheists, however, is that atheism is coming under more
> serious attack by Christians and others who recognize its problems and
> are exposing them. Without a doubt, there are far more people in the
> world who believe in God (or a god) than don't, and more and more
> Christians are tackling atheism as an untenable position. If the
> majority believe, that doesn't make it right; but the increase in
> examination of atheism has made it more difficult for atheists to defend
> their position. This also explains why atheists, it seems, are becoming
> more aggressive in their attacks on theism in its different forms. There
> is an intellectual battle being waged, and both defensive and offensive
> measures are being taken on both sides. In the end, the truth will be
> known and atheism will become extinct.
>
> (by Matt Slick, "Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry")
So, what happen if I introduce to you my concept of "Jonster" which
> if they say they have no position by saying they lack belief, then their
> position is not open to attack and examination, and they can quietly
> remain atheists.
>
> The problem for atheists, however, is that atheism is coming under more
> serious attack by Christians and others who recognize its problems and
> are exposing them. Without a doubt, there are far more people in the
> world who believe in God (or a god) than don't, and more and more
> Christians are tackling atheism as an untenable position. If the
> majority believe, that doesn't make it right; but the increase in
> examination of atheism has made it more difficult for atheists to defend
> their position. This also explains why atheists, it seems, are becoming
> more aggressive in their attacks on theism in its different forms. There
> is an intellectual battle being waged, and both defensive and offensive
> measures are being taken on both sides. In the end, the truth will be
> known and atheism will become extinct.
>
> (by Matt Slick, "Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry")
will attack you whenever you are sleepy, you would have to worry like
hell every day?
A nut like you remains a nut.
raven1
Sep 7, 2012, 9:57:36 AM9/7/12
to
On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 19:49:13 -0400, Calvin Ramsey
<calvin...@live.com> wrote:
>On 9/6/2012 4:51 PM, Andrew W wrote:
>> "Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
>> news:k29tbi$pl3$1...@dont-email.me
>>> On 9/6/2012 12:14 AM, Andrew W wrote:
>>>> "Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
>>>>> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>>>>>> atheists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
>>>>> any discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
>>>
>>> Who said anything about a "discussion"?
>>>
>>
>> What are newsgroups for?
>
>Show me one rational "discussion", without the repeated use of fallacies
You have a point there. I don't remember any posts from theists
<calvin...@live.com> wrote:
>On 9/6/2012 4:51 PM, Andrew W wrote:
>> "Calvin Ramsey" <calvin...@live.com> wrote in message
>> news:k29tbi$pl3$1...@dont-email.me
>>> On 9/6/2012 12:14 AM, Andrew W wrote:
>>>> "Malcolm McMahon" <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:bfeecd90-e9fb-43b4...@googlegroups.com
>>>>> On Wednesday, 5 September 2012 11:19:04 UTC+1, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> The statement "I lack belief in a god" is a common position of
>>>>>> atheists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And how does restating your original post verbatim actually advance
>>>>> any discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't. His mind is cracked. Too much Bible reading did it.
>>>
>>> Who said anything about a "discussion"?
>>>
>>
>> What are newsgroups for?
>
>Show me one rational "discussion", without the repeated use of fallacies
without fallacies over the past year.
>(http://www.nizkor.com), in the last year.
>>
>>>
>>> There hasn't been a "discussion" here in a.a. for years.
>>>
>>
>> Really.
>
>Prove me wrong.
>
>>
>>>
>>> Look up the word "advertisement".
>>>
>>
>> Then you're a spammer.
>
>Since this is not a "regular and normal" newsgroup, with rational
>discussions, the answer is no.
>
>I just do whatever it takes to get the most results.
revulsion to your psychopathic theology. An odd thing to strive for,
but whatever floats your boat...
>Why don't you learn how to use "message filters"?
unwelcome?
<smirk>
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