OT - Political Compass

Lord Calvert

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Jun 21, 2002, 12:20:47 PM6/21/02

to

Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
exercise on this group.

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html

Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.

Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
(libertarian-moderate).

Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX)

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as
I'm the dictator." - George W. Bush, during a photo-op with Congressional
leaders 18 December 2000

Fred Stone

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Jun 21, 2002, 12:34:15 PM6/21/02

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Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 2.12
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36

Whoops, not very authoritarian at all, Rich. Maybe their test isn't
calibrated right, huh?

--
Fred Stone
aa # 1369; linux user # 254178; machine # 138214

Gregory Gadow

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Jun 21, 2002, 12:41:23 PM6/21/02

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Lord Calvert wrote:

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
> (libertarian-moderate).

I rated (-3.62, -5.79), left-leaning libertarian. I'm also happy to state that I
answered "Strongly Disagree" to all of the religion questions :-)
--
Gregory Gadow
tech...@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear

If it is the act of a traitor to speak out against the
unConstitional acts of my government, to excercise my
rights guaranteed by that Constitution -- the right to
publish my opinions and speak my thoughts, the right
to petition for a redress of grievances, the right to
be secure in my person and property against search and
seizure without due process of law -- then I am a traitor.
And God grant us many, many more traitors, for we are in
dire need of them.

Adam Marczyk

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Jun 21, 2002, 12:56:40 PM6/21/02

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Lord Calvert <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess
that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
> (libertarian-moderate).

Wow. I'm -5.12, -5.38; apparently I'm a hard-left libertarian. Funny, I would've
thought I was more moderate than that.

--
a.a. #2001
"Blasphemy is a victimless crime."
Director, EAC Black Monolith Division - "My God, it's full of stars"
Operative: EAC Electronic Warfare Division
EAC Subversive Fiction Division

http://www.ebonmusings.org ICQ: 8777843 PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737

Cynic

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Jun 21, 2002, 1:04:02 PM6/21/02

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"Lord Calvert" <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...

Here's what I got:
Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.95

This is an interesting test. I'll have to look it over and have some people
I know take it.
Thanks.

Gregory Gadow

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Jun 21, 2002, 1:32:08 PM6/21/02

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Adam Marczyk wrote:

> Lord Calvert <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
> news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...
> > Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
> > exercise on this group.
> >
> > http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
> >
> > Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> > two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
> >
> > Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess
> that
> > most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
> > (libertarian-moderate).
>
> Wow. I'm -5.12, -5.38; apparently I'm a hard-left libertarian. Funny, I would've
> thought I was more moderate than that.

For me, a lot of the questions were... well, questionable. I *hate* multiple choice;
too many of them I want to answer "Agree, but...." or "Strongly disagree,
however...."

Elf Sternberg

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Jun 21, 2002, 1:46:02 PM6/21/02

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In article <20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com>
forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) writes:

>Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
>most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
>(libertarian-moderate).

Heh, I'm more of a right-wing moderate. 4.75 to the RIGHT, 3.13
towards LIBERTARIAN.

Elf

--
Elf M. Sternberg
Disproportionately Popular Among Homosexuals.
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/ (under construction)

ath...@home.com

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Jun 21, 2002, 1:55:22 PM6/21/02

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On 21 Jun 2002 16:20:47 GMT, forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert)
wrote:

>Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
>exercise on this group.
>
>http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
>Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
>Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
>most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
>(libertarian-moderate).
>

Economic Left/Right: 2.00
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -1.64

atheist@home#1554

Mark Gradwell

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:01:13 PM6/21/02

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"Lord Calvert" <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...

-------
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.49
------
According to this I'm a Liberal Democrat called Simon Hughes!
AAAAGGGGHHHHHH!

Stupid test anyway (sniff).

--
Regards
Mark
aa#1478

Daniel Kolle

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:04:53 PM6/21/02

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Slightly Right-Wing.

Your political compass:
Economic Left/Right: 0.62
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -1.59
--
-Kolle (kohl-lee); 14. A.A. #2035.
EAC Director of the Department of Phonetic Spelling.
Koji Kondo is my god.
Feed not that inept troll.

Patrick Brown

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:36:43 PM6/21/02

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Lord Calvert <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess
that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
graph
> (libertarian-moderate).

Economic Left/Right: -6.38 (pretty far to the left)
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.38 (pretty far to the libertarian)

Seems pretty accurate in my case.

--
Patrick Brown
remove IHATESPAM to reply

The Ulster Cycle http://irelandnow.com/ulstercycle
Patrick Brown - Cartoonist http://homepage.ntlworld.com/patrick.brown

Dave W

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:42:31 PM6/21/02

to

Fred Stone wrote in alt.atheism:

> Lord Calvert wrote:
>> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it
>> would be an interesting exercise on this group.
>>
>> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>>
>> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this
>> uses a two-dimensional graph; right-left and
>> authoritarian-libertarian.
>>
>> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here
>> rate. I would guess that most cluster around where I do
>> somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
>> (libertarian-moderate).
>>
>>
>> Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX)
>>
>> "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot
>> easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." - George W.
>> Bush, during a photo-op with Congressional leaders 18
>> December 2000
>>
>
> Your political compass
> Economic Left/Right: 2.12
> Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36
>

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 2.00
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.26

--
Dave W a.a. #1967
ROT e-mail addy in header
Pinky, Are You Pondering What I'm Pondering?
I think so Brain, but this time you put the trousers on the chimp.

Lord Calvert

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:41:44 PM6/21/02

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>Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess
>that
>most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
>graph
>(libertarian-moderate).

My own numbers were
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.85 (extremely libertarian)
Right/Left: -1.00 (left leaning moderate)

I would guess that the overwhelming majority of US politicians are on the upper
half of the graph. My own guesses as to how major US politicians would rate:

GOP (overall): Authoritarian 6, Right 6
Dems (overall): Authoritarian 5, Left 1
Greens (overall): Authoritarian 6, Left 7
Bush: Authoritarian 9, Right 9
Ashcroft: Authoritarian 10, Right 8
W. Clinton: Authoritarian 5, Right 1
T. Kennedy: Authoritarian 2, Left 4
Gore: Authoritarian 3, Left 3
Buchanan: Authoritarian 10, Right 10
Ventura: Libertarian 5, Right 4
Rehnquist: Authoritarian 7, Right 10

The only people currently on the Hill that I think would fall in the
Libertarian half of the graph are Amo Houghton and Bernie Sanders. Houghton
would probably be a Libertarian 3, Right 6 and Sanders would likely be a
Libertarian 5, Right 2.

Ethan Young

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:48:41 PM6/21/02

to

"Gregory Gadow" <tech...@serv.net> wrote in message
news:3D136277...@serv.net...

| Adam Marczyk wrote:
|
| > Lord Calvert <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
| > news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...
| > > Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
interesting
| > > exercise on this group.
| > >
| > > http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
| > >
| > > Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
| > > two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
| > >
| > > Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
guess
| > that
| > > most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of
the graph
| > > (libertarian-moderate).
| >
| > Wow. I'm -5.12, -5.38; apparently I'm a hard-left libertarian. Funny, I
would've
| > thought I was more moderate than that.
|
| For me, a lot of the questions were... well, questionable. I *hate*
multiple choice;
| too many of them I want to answer "Agree, but...." or "Strongly disagree,
| however...."

YES! I second that observation...plus, many of them I've never thought
about before...so many of them are so multidimensional that one must wonder
what they are doing in a MC format....

Ethan

Ethan Young

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:48:43 PM6/21/02

to

"Lord Calvert" <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...

| Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
interesting
| exercise on this group.
|
| http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
|
| Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
| two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
|
| Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess
that
| most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
graph
| (libertarian-moderate).

I'm almost smack-dab in the middle of Quadrant II:
(-4.5, -5.95)

I'm a Left Libertarian....Libertarian is has the root Liberty, and I live in
the US, so I'm fine with that. That mix would make anyone a moderate
overall (controlling business somewhat, letting citizens be free), just as
Right-Authoritarian would make someone else a moderate, IMO, although in a
worse way: Letting business roam free and controlling the citizens...ouch.
That just never clicked for me...

But in order to have a moderate gov't, we need equal amounts of both...none
of this "political party platform" BS...this scale is a great idea, and IMO
should be made official in some way, required for all politicians to take so
voters can vote for whom they really would like to see in gov't....I see no
downside to a system such as that...it sure makes lying a bit more pointless
and difficult!

Ethan

Ethan Young

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:48:42 PM6/21/02

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"Mark Gradwell" <mark...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:IRJQ8.3327$n_2.1...@news8-gui.server.ntli.net...

It's okay, Mark, Democrats aren't ALWAYS as bad as Republicans....
:-P

Ethan

|
| Stupid test anyway (sniff).

Hehe...

|
| --
| Regards
| Mark
| aa#1478
|
|

Cynic

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Jun 21, 2002, 3:02:44 PM6/21/02

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"Lord Calvert" <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message

news:20020621144144...@mb-fa.aol.com...

> >Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
guess
> >that
> >most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
> >graph
> >(libertarian-moderate).
>
> My own numbers were
> Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.85 (extremely libertarian)
> Right/Left: -1.00 (left leaning moderate)
>
> I would guess that the overwhelming majority of US politicians are on the
upper
> half of the graph. My own guesses as to how major US politicians would
rate:

I disagree with your numbers below (but some are pretty good guesses):

> GOP (overall): Authoritarian 6, Right 6
> Dems (overall): Authoritarian 5, Left 1

I would be surprised if Bill Clinton, for example, scored a -1 on the
right/left scale. I would guess it would be more like +2.

> Greens (overall): Authoritarian 6, Left 7

Here's what I got:

Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.95

And I agree with the greens on many issues. And, yes, I did vote for Nader.

> Bush: Authoritarian 9, Right 9
> Ashcroft: Authoritarian 10, Right 8

Pretty accurate.

> W. Clinton: Authoritarian 5, Right 1

Oops, my bad. I guess I shouldn't have lumped Bill in with the Dems above,
but I don't think dems overall are that "left".

Gregory Gadow

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Jun 21, 2002, 3:03:11 PM6/21/02

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Ethan Young wrote:

> "Mark Gradwell" <mark...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
> news:IRJQ8.3327$n_2.1...@news8-gui.server.ntli.net...
>

> | Your political compass
> | Economic Left/Right: -0.62
> | Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.49
> | ------
> | According to this I'm a Liberal Democrat called Simon Hughes!
> | AAAAGGGGHHHHHH!
>
> It's okay, Mark, Democrats aren't ALWAYS as bad as Republicans....
> :-P

Indeed; sometimes they are worse.
--
Gregory Gadow (Who, me? Upset? What do you mean?)

Gregory Gadow

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Jun 21, 2002, 3:15:23 PM6/21/02

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Lord Calvert wrote:

> I would guess that the overwhelming majority of US politicians are on the upper
> half of the graph. My own guesses as to how major US politicians would rate:
>
> GOP (overall): Authoritarian 6, Right 6
> Dems (overall): Authoritarian 5, Left 1
> Greens (overall): Authoritarian 6, Left 7

The problem with the "overall" classification is that there are several ways to
build the classification (Platforms? Voting records from Congress? The average
voting records of State Legislators? Opinion polls of self-identified membership?)
I would put the Dem platform at about a -4 (on the left), but the voting records of
the Dems in Congress since 2000 indicate more of a 3 (on the right.) Likewise, the
GOP platform looks like a 6 to me, but if you go by voting record it's more of a 4.
The Greens, well... the platform might be -7, but I've known influential Greens who
would get placed in the right. And I strongly disagree with you putting Greens as
Authoritarian; a significant part of the platform talks about personal freedoms and
responsibilities and the rank-and-file tend to be quite libertarian.

> Bush: Authoritarian 9, Right 9
> Ashcroft: Authoritarian 10, Right 8
> W. Clinton: Authoritarian 5, Right 1
> T. Kennedy: Authoritarian 2, Left 4
> Gore: Authoritarian 3, Left 3

This, I strongly disagree with. Gore is not, by any possible definition, a liberal.
While in the House and Senate, he out conservatived most Republicans. Based his
actual voting record, his platform, statements and press releases during his 1984
bid for the Democratic nomination and his actual *actions* (as opposed to his
rhetoric) during 8 years as VP, I would put Gore as Right 4, at least.

> Buchanan: Authoritarian 10, Right 10
> Ventura: Libertarian 5, Right 4

I tend to think that Ventura is more left than that, around Right 2.

> Rehnquist: Authoritarian 7, Right 10
>
> The only people currently on the Hill that I think would fall in the
> Libertarian half of the graph are Amo Houghton and Bernie Sanders. Houghton
> would probably be a Libertarian 3, Right 6 and Sanders would likely be a
> Libertarian 5, Right 2.

--
Gregory Gadow

Animeg3282

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Jun 21, 2002, 3:39:37 PM6/21/02

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Lord Calvert said:

>Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
>exercise on this group.
>
>http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
>Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
>Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess
>that
>most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
>graph
>(libertarian-moderate).
>

>Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.03

I'm a left libertarian,

Hana no Kaitou
http://peachcoloredsky.keenspace.com <--- Now updating again!
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282 <---Fancy Lala Club!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fancy_lala
"You write the life that's vividest'- Jarman

Bill Thacker

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Jun 21, 2002, 4:05:17 PM6/21/02

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In article <20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com>,

Lord Calvert <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote:
>Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
>exercise on this group.
>
>http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html

OK... for your amusement, I'll take this interactively.

First, there are four possible answer: Strongly Agree, Agree,
Disagree, Strongly Disagree. I'll abbreviate SA, A, D, SD henceforth.
In terms of survey design, it's generally the case that you need
to allow a neutral response. Sometimes you don't want that, but
I think this introduces a bias.

Now, question by question:

1. If globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity
rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.

I answer A. This is because it's not at all obvious that these
two interests are mutually opposing. Corporations are made of
people, and their income are paid out to people. I think this
is really a class-envy question: substitute "the wealthy" for
"trans-national corporations."

2. I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong.

I answer A. But what does "support" mean? I certainly disagree
loudly when I think we're wrong, but if I were drafted to fight
a war, I would go even if it was another Vietnam. I'll pay
my taxes, even if they fund the occasional overseas dictator.
I'll support my country until it becomes so bad that I
choose to leave.

3. No one chooses their country of birth, so it's absurd to be proud
of it.

I'm proud of the USA. It's not a personal pride; I didn't make this
country what it is, and I don't see its greatness as a reflection
on myself. I think that the common phrase, "proud to be an American"
is really a mis-use of the word. "Damned glad to be an American"
is more accurate. I think the colloquial use of pride sounds
stilted when turned around as it is in this question. I answer
D.

4. Our nation has many unique virtues.

SA.

5. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Agree. Not because the statement is true when you dissect it. This
is a quote - of Mao, I think - and as such is a somewhat
poetic expression. It would be more correct to say, "The enemy of
my enemy is my ally," which is really the thought being conveyed.
If I were ignorant of that background, I would argue that logically
the statement above is nonsense.

6. Jews surely have to take some of the responsibility for their
persecution over the past 2000 years.

Agree. I'm not antisemitic, I just happen to think that the Jewish
practice of cultural separatism - marriage only within the
community, strict dietary laws and dress codes, a separate sabbath
day - guarantees that wherever they live they are seen as
mysterious outsiders. They're not to blame for the persecution
that results, but humans are a xenophobic lot; these customs
amount to waving a red flag in front of a bull. But I'm sure my
answer to this question is scored as "Right-wing nutcase".

7. The growing fusion between information and entertainment is a
worrying contribution to the public's shrinking attention span.

Agree. This leads to debate-by-soundbite, which is ridiculous.

8. Class background determines peoples' consciousness more than their
membership of a particular nation.

Damned if I know, but since I can't be neutral, D.

9.Controlling inflation is more important than controlling
unemployment.

SD. I think that so long as people are employed, the rest is
just numbers. (Implicit is the assumption that someone will
quit working rather than keep in a job that doesn't pay enough for
them to survive.) Controlling inflation is also vital for those
living on a fixed income - too little inflation kills them.

10. Corporations cannot be trusted to voluntarily respect the
environment.

A. Most people would SA, but I think that's short-sighted.
Corporations will do whatever makes them profitable, and if we
can find a way to make bad environmental policies hit their
bottom line, they *will* voluntarily respect the environment.
As written, the question seems to be "Corporations will not
do good things that we don't pay them to do," which shouldn't
even be controversial enough to put in the quiz.

11. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
is a fundamentally good idea.

SD. Like the Mao quote, this one from Marx cannot be separated
from what it implied - that capitalism is a bad economic system.
I do very much like the sound of this expression; indeed, for
some species other than humanity, it probably describes the
optimum. Unfortunately, humans are innately too selfish to
make this "fundamentally good vision" a "fundamentally good idea."

12. It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as
drinking water is now a consumer product.

SD. It's a fine tribute to capitalism that the market can produce
so many different variants of what people once thought was a
simple commodity. I also like being able to get a cold bottle of
water from machines that used to dispence only soda.

13. Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold

SD. That which cannot be owned has no value and will be treated as
such. That's why bald eagles are nearly extinct and cattle are
more plentiful than ever.

14. Many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate
money and contribute nothing to their society.

D. Manipulating money often *is* a contribution to society.
For example, after the last big San Francisco earthquake investors
rushed to buy stock in construction companies. They were just
manipulating money to make fortunes, but the increased demand
made the stock price go up, improving the companies' credit,
allowing them to purchase new capital equipment to gear up and
rebuild. I don't SD because I do agree that many of the
fortunes are made without achieving anything so noble as this.
I want to SD, though, because I think the equation of
"manipulate money" to "contribute nothing" shows a fundamentally
flawed view of economics.

15. Protectionism is sometimes a necessary element in trade.

SA. Sometimes trading partners in countries with different
gov'ts and economic systems leverage their national might to
torpedo one industry. The Japanese attacks on our IC industry
back in the 80s were a prime example. Now, if that never
happened, protectionism would never be necessary.

16. The only social responsibility of a company should be to deliver
a profit to its shareholders.

D. I'm not entirely sure what "responsibility" really means.
A company *should* contribute to its community; but I wouldn't
try to force it to do so. (Likewise, a person *should* do
some volunteer work, but not at gunpoint.)

17. The rich are too highly taxed.

D. But I don't think they're horribly under-taxed, either.

18. Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher
standards of medical care and education.

SA, because I think if your money can't make you live longer,
there's something screwed up. But I favor minimum standards of
care, too. I also don't like the use of "right" in this
context, because it sounds like "The rich should have a separate
medical care system from the rest of us," which I don't support.
I merely think that if you have enough money, you should be allowed
to purchase any medical treatment available; that nobody
should deny you the right to spend your money to preserve your life.
If the government implements universal health care, and that
doesn't include (say) heart transplants, then I think I should have
the right to sell my house and pay for one myself if I need it.

19. We'd be better off if companies simply told the truth, rather than
spending a fortune on manipulative consumer advertising.

A. Of course, we'd also be better off if politicians told the
truth and if everyone was fair. The problem is that the truth is
too subjective. I'm sure the people at GM really do think their
cars are better than Ford's, and vice versa.

20. The freer the market, the freer the people.

SA. Of course, a monopoly is not a free market. (This has the
ring of a catch-phrase, but I've not heard it before, so I'm
not aware if it has a contextual meaning.)

21. Abortion, when the mother's life is not threatened, should always
be illegal.

SD. It should always be legal the day after conception, for instance.

22. All authority must be questioned.

SA. But that doesn't mean disobeyed.

23. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

D. It's not usually appropriate, but sometimes it is the best way.

24. All theatres and museums that can't survive on a commercial basis
deserve to perish.

A. I think there are rare examples to the contrary; some things
we just need to preserve as a national heritage even if nobody
today wants to look at it (e.g., the Ford presidential library).
But most museums are simply entertainment, and if the visitors
can't pay for it they shouldn't fob off the cost onto their neighbors
via taxes.

25. Education should involve enabling children to develop their own
personality.

How can I not agree? But I think kids' personalities are mostly
developed outside the classroom. I'm content that education does
not *prevent* their personality development. A.

26. Everyone has their rights, but it is better for all of us that
different sorts of people should keep to their own kind.

I might interpret this as meaning "It's good that people can
join private organizations like churches and clubs that have
membership restrictions," with which I would agree. But I
think they're talking about segregation, so SD.

27. Good parents sometimes have to spank their children, to teach them
right from wrong.

A. Not all kids need this, but sometimes a slap on the butt is
what it takes to get a kid's attention.

28. It's natural for children to keep some secrets from their parents.

SA. Is there any other reasonable answer?

29. Marijuana and hashish should be legalised.

SA. No worse than tobacco and alcohol.

30. Schools pay too much attention to the arts and not enough towards
their real function - equipping the future generation to find jobs.

SD. They don't pay much attention to the arts as it is. And I
see their function as more than job training; they should expose
kids to things that can enrich the rest of their lives. Since a
major, major source of enjoyment for me is band music, I
benefitted immensely from school arts. What schools pay too much
attention to is athletics. Show me some who's 41 and still plays
football 3 nights a week... :-)

31. Significantly physically disabled people should not be allowed to
reproduce.

D. What stops it from being SD is that I have to seriously
question the ethics of someone producing a baby if they are
themselves too disabled to care for the child, or if they are sure
of passing on a serious debilitation like mental retardation. I
see it as a matter of being cruel to the child. But I'm not pushing
for any legislation, in any case.

32. The most important thing for children to learn is discipline.

D. Discipline is very important; but I doubt it's the most
important thing. I'd have to rank "being nice to people" and
"thinking" above that.

33. There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only
different cultures.

SD. Afghan culture is barbaric and semi-civilized. The
Afghans are a savage people.

34. Those who are able to work and do not should not expect to eat.

SA. I'd feed them anyway, but they should not *expect* me to.

35. When a person is troubled, it's better not to think about it, but
to keep busy with more cheerful things.

D. You need to think some about it, but don't get obsessed.

36. First-generation immigrants can never be fully integrated within
their new country.

D. But I'm hedging on "fully". I'm not sure *anyone* is ever
*fully* integrated in their country. I'm not sure *I* am.

37. What's good for the most successful corporations is always,
ultimately, good for all of us.

A. Not really always, but usually.

38. No broadcasting institutions should receive public funding.

A. We should fund the Emergency Broadcast System, for instance,
and I think Voice of America is a good idea, too. But I don't
think we should fund PBS.

39. A government must give its citizens as much social freedom as
possible.

SA. Hard to imagine someone answering otherwise, though it hinges
on the word "possible" - to me, that precludes anarchy, which is
more freedom than is possible to maintain.

40. A one-party state is better because it avoids all the arguments
that delay progress in a democratic political system.

SD.

41. Although the electronic age makes official surveillance easier,
people who haven't done anything wrong shouldn't be worried.

D. In fact, the police usually don't try to screw people
who aren't causing problems. Usually.

42. Capital punishment should be a judicial option.

SD.

43. In a civilised society, one must always have people above to obey
and people below to command.

SD. This doesn't even make sense. Who commands the President?
Who do I command? Is there actually a school of political
thinking that holds this to be true?

44. Abstract art, because it doesn't represent anything, shouldn't be
considered art at all.

SD. Art is in the eye of the beholder. If you want to buy a
urinal and call it art, why should I stop you?

45. In criminal justice, punishment is as important as
rehabilitation.

D. Punishment probably has value, but my ideal justice system
would bend all effort to rehabilitation. Punishment only
makes sense as a deterrent to people who cannot be rehabilitated.

46. Social workers waste their time trying to rehabilitate those who
are simply born bad.

SD. I don't think anyone is "born bad."

47. The businessman and the manufacturer are more important than the
writer and the artist.

Since I can't be neutral, I Agree; but I certainly don't think
we can do without writers and artists.

48. It's fine for women to have careers, but their first duty is to
be homemakers.

SD.

49. On environmental issues, thinking globally and acting locally is
a basically good idea.

A. Seems harmless enough.

50. Young people may have some rebellious ideas, but it's normal to
grow out of them and settle down.

A. And better yet, sometimes they don't grow out of them, but rather
change the world for the better.

51. Astrology can explain many more things than most people presently
realise

SD, with the possible exception of explaining why some people
are such suckers.

52. Religion and morality are inseparable.

SD.

53. Sex outside marriage is a sin.

SD.

54. Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the
genuinely disadvantaged.

SA. While it's not capitalized, I can't see "social security" as
meaning anything other than Social Security, which is a retirement
plan, not a public relief system. I think I'm missing the point here.

55. Some people are naturally unlucky.

SD. But some people have habits that make them fall victim to bad
luck more often than others. (E.g., if I run out of gas, it's
not a big deal; I use my cell phone, call AAA, they send a truck
and give me enough gas to get to the filling station, where I
use my credit card to fill up. Some people don't plan for such
damage control; if they run out of gas they don't have a cell
phone, so they have to walk to the nearest gas station, buy a
gas can and gas, and walk back to their car. We both had
the same luck, but for me it wasn't a big deal.)
they

56. Faith-based schools have a positive role to play in our education
system.

SD. They can't do anything a private, secular school couldn't do.

57. A same sex couple in a stable, loving relationship, should not be
excluded from the possibility of child adoption.

SA.

58. Pornography, depicting consenting adults, should be legal for the
adult population.

SA.

59. What goes on in a private bedroom between consenting adults is no
business of the state.

SA, on the assumption they're talking about sex. But I don't agree
if they're talking about a plot to blow up a school.

60. One day, science may be able to cure homosexuality.

I have to SA, for all that I object to the use of "cure", as if
it's a disease. I'm pretty sure that science can find a way
to make people stop being homosexual; but I don't think it's a good
idea.

61. It's fine for society to be open about sex, but these days it's
going too far.

A, mostly because of its pervasive presence on television. The thing
is, we're not open about sex, so we spend way too much time hinting
at it. I'd rather we be open and frank, and not fixated.

So, my scores. On a +/- 10 point scale, I got

Economic Left/Right: 3.12
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36

This puts me moderately in the lower right quadrant. Interestingly,
I get the impression that the great majority fall in the upper right
or lower left quadrant; those of us in the other two are oddballs.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker BAAWA Knight, Atheist #1363 bi...@woods-car.com
Bill's Rail Buggy Page: http://www.woods-car.com

Director of the EAC Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Fast Cars,
and Pornography.

"Be nice to your neighbor. Be hell to his ideas."
Jim Versluys, editor, The Texas Mercury

Bill Thacker

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Jun 21, 2002, 4:10:58 PM6/21/02

to

In article <Xns9234771C2...@199.45.49.11>,

Dave W <yermon...@mydoor.netinvalid> wrote:
>Fred Stone wrote in alt.atheism:
>

>> Your political compass
>> Economic Left/Right: 2.12
>> Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36
>>
>
>Your political compass
>Economic Left/Right: 2.00
>Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.26

Economic Left/Right: 3.12
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36

No wonder I think you guys are such political
geniuses! :-)

Fred Stone

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Jun 21, 2002, 4:37:50 PM6/21/02

to

Bill Thacker wrote:
> In article <Xns9234771C2...@199.45.49.11>,
> Dave W <yermon...@mydoor.netinvalid> wrote:
>
>>Fred Stone wrote in alt.atheism:
>>
>>
>>>Your political compass
>>>Economic Left/Right: 2.12
>>>Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36
>>>
>>
>>Your political compass
>>Economic Left/Right: 2.00
>>Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.26
>
>
>
> Economic Left/Right: 3.12
> Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36
>
> No wonder I think you guys are such political
> geniuses! :-)

Great minds in the same gutter? ;-)

Dave W

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Jun 21, 2002, 4:49:42 PM6/21/02

to

Fred Stone wrote in alt.atheism:

> Bill Thacker wrote:
>> In article <Xns9234771C2...@199.45.49.11>,
>> Dave W <yermon...@mydoor.netinvalid> wrote:
>>
>>>Fred Stone wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Your political compass
>>>>Economic Left/Right: 2.12
>>>>Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36
>>>>
>>>
>>>Your political compass
>>>Economic Left/Right: 2.00
>>>Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.26
>>
>>
>>
>> Economic Left/Right: 3.12
>> Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36
>>
>> No wonder I think you guys are such political
>> geniuses! :-)
>
> Great minds in the same gutter? ;-)
>

<SPLASH SPLASH> Oooh, a penny!

Cynic

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Jun 21, 2002, 4:53:25 PM6/21/02

to

"Bill Thacker" <w...@cbemi.cb.lucent.com> wrote in message
news:af00tt$a...@nntpb.cb.lucent.com...

> In article <20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com>,
> Lord Calvert <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote:
> >Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
interesting
> >exercise on this group.
> >
> >http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> OK... for your amusement, I'll take this interactively.
>
> First, there are four possible answer: Strongly Agree, Agree,
> Disagree, Strongly Disagree. I'll abbreviate SA, A, D, SD henceforth.
> In terms of survey design, it's generally the case that you need
> to allow a neutral response. Sometimes you don't want that, but
> I think this introduces a bias.
>
> Now, question by question:

You're inviting some comments on these by posting, so I must....

>
> 1. If globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity
> rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.
>
> I answer A. This is because it's not at all obvious that these
> two interests are mutually opposing. Corporations are made of
> people, and their income are paid out to people. I think this
> is really a class-envy question: substitute "the wealthy" for
> "trans-national corporations."

I feel that globalization and interests of MOST people are not compatible.
Globalization allows corporations to use job flight to other countries as a
weapon against labor. Corporations pay peanuts to their workers in third
world countries. Sure, the standard of living is not as high in those
countries, so the $4/day will get them more than if they lived in the U.S.,
but it is still peanuts. It also strikes fear in workers here in the states.
More importantly, have you ever heard what the globalization proponents are
really shooting for? Most modern world trade organizations want an
unaccountable pseudo-government running the world. Nation states can be
brought to "court" for violating trade clauses which give all power to the
corporations and strip national sovereignty. These courts are not open to
the public, nor are the people who make decisions voted on. This is
anti-democracy, plain and simple. Besides, these very important economic
decisions are being decided in PRIVATE. Hell, I couldn't find one person
back in 97 that had heard of MAI (Multilateral Agreement on Investment). It
failed, but is attempting to find its way into other agreements. It is like
a super-powered NAFTA.
In 1997, the Ethyl Corporation filed a lawsuit against the Canadian
government. It sued for Canada's ban on a toxic gasoline additive (MMT or
MTM??). Anyway, NAFTA gave them the right to do this. If you don't find this
troubling, I'm not sure why. Governments are (in theory at least)
accountable. People vote for their elected officials, etc. So,
theoretically, Canada's ban on this toxic was a democratic act - but in the
whole world of global trade, this is illegal. Investers' rights over local
populations is not right.

You have to remember that the U.S. has often used this line of thought when
choosing their friends. (previous friends include: Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan,
etc.)

>
> 6. Jews surely have to take some of the responsibility for their
> persecution over the past 2000 years.
>
> Agree. I'm not antisemitic, I just happen to think that the Jewish
> practice of cultural separatism - marriage only within the
> community, strict dietary laws and dress codes, a separate sabbath
> day - guarantees that wherever they live they are seen as
> mysterious outsiders. They're not to blame for the persecution
> that results, but humans are a xenophobic lot; these customs
> amount to waving a red flag in front of a bull. But I'm sure my
> answer to this question is scored as "Right-wing nutcase".

While I somewhat disagree with you here, I am often called an antisemite for
my views on the Israel/Palestine affair. I think one should be able to
criticise actions of Jewish people without being labeled an antisemite.

Not sure where you are from, but here in the U.S. (New England), local water
quality is so poor that everyone buys gallons of water to drink. You just
DON'T drink tap water around here unless you are risky or have had it tested
and it's ok.
This is disturbing.

>
> 13. Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold
>
> SD. That which cannot be owned has no value and will be treated as
> such. That's why bald eagles are nearly extinct and cattle are
> more plentiful than ever.
>
> 14. Many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate
> money and contribute nothing to their society.
>
> D. Manipulating money often *is* a contribution to society.
> For example, after the last big San Francisco earthquake investors
> rushed to buy stock in construction companies. They were just
> manipulating money to make fortunes, but the increased demand
> made the stock price go up, improving the companies' credit,
> allowing them to purchase new capital equipment to gear up and
> rebuild. I don't SD because I do agree that many of the
> fortunes are made without achieving anything so noble as this.
> I want to SD, though, because I think the equation of
> "manipulate money" to "contribute nothing" shows a fundamentally
> flawed view of economics.
>
> 15. Protectionism is sometimes a necessary element in trade.
>
> SA. Sometimes trading partners in countries with different
> gov'ts and economic systems leverage their national might to
> torpedo one industry. The Japanese attacks on our IC industry
> back in the 80s were a prime example. Now, if that never
> happened, protectionism would never be necessary.

I find it terribly strange that you answered how you did here but find
globalization fine. Globalization's goal is to tear down the ability for
countries to do what you are saying.

> 16. The only social responsibility of a company should be to deliver
> a profit to its shareholders.
>
> D. I'm not entirely sure what "responsibility" really means.
> A company *should* contribute to its community; but I wouldn't
> try to force it to do so. (Likewise, a person *should* do
> some volunteer work, but not at gunpoint.)
>
> 17. The rich are too highly taxed.
>
> D. But I don't think they're horribly under-taxed, either.

I just strongly disagree with your answer.

>
> 18. Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher
> standards of medical care and education.
>
> SA, because I think if your money can't make you live longer,
> there's something screwed up. But I favor minimum standards of
> care, too. I also don't like the use of "right" in this
> context, because it sounds like "The rich should have a separate
> medical care system from the rest of us," which I don't support.
> I merely think that if you have enough money, you should be allowed
> to purchase any medical treatment available; that nobody
> should deny you the right to spend your money to preserve your life.
> If the government implements universal health care, and that
> doesn't include (say) heart transplants, then I think I should have
> the right to sell my house and pay for one myself if I need it.

Well, to keep this one short, let me just say that I STRONGLY support
universal health care.

> 19. We'd be better off if companies simply told the truth, rather than
> spending a fortune on manipulative consumer advertising.
>
> A. Of course, we'd also be better off if politicians told the
> truth and if everyone was fair. The problem is that the truth is
> too subjective. I'm sure the people at GM really do think their
> cars are better than Ford's, and vice versa.
>
> 20. The freer the market, the freer the people.
>
> SA. Of course, a monopoly is not a free market. (This has the
> ring of a catch-phrase, but I've not heard it before, so I'm
> not aware if it has a contextual meaning.)

Not quite sure what this means, but I'd like to mention that my concerns
about global capital apply here.

ANY physical reprimanding of a child is a) counter-productive and b)
child-abuse

You're kidding?

Well put.

Jowysiren

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Jun 21, 2002, 8:04:06 PM6/21/02

to

I've taken this test before and the results tend to fluctuate, but they are
always in the negatives. Last time I took the test, I got:

Left/Right: -5.96
Libertartian/Authoritarian:-5.65

Kania
aa#1755 decon #49
http://jowysiren.sexsexworld.com

Darth Smartass

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Jun 21, 2002, 8:45:19 PM6/21/02

to

forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) wrote in
news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com:

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
> interesting exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>

> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom
> centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).

My political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.12
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.15

I'm kinda close to Gandhi :)

--
Darth Smartass: Dark Stratocopy Strangler of the Sith
Commander, EAC 8th Air Force
aa #One double one, one, double-oh, one hundred, double-one.

The Bible: A Manual for Scientific Illiterates

Apostate

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Jun 21, 2002, 9:04:39 PM6/21/02

to

On 21 Jun 2002 16:20:47 GMT, forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert)
wrote:

>Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting

>exercise on this group.
>
>http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
>Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
>Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
>most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
>(libertarian-moderate).
>
>

>Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX)

Right off the top (something like 4 of the first six
questions), there are far too many unanswerable questions, since all
offered alternatives are wtf too simplistic or all just wrong.

--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by vernon
I doubt, therefore I might be.

maky m.

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Jun 21, 2002, 10:27:51 PM6/21/02

to

forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) wrote in message news:<20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com>...

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
> (libertarian-moderate).

loaded questions.

the moment i got the result:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 2.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -1.90

then i knew that test was a crock of crap...

traditionally i have been a quasi-liberal with strong libertarian tendencies...

> Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX)
>

Ethan Young

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Jun 21, 2002, 10:52:41 PM6/21/02

to

"Gregory Gadow" <tech...@serv.net> wrote in message

news:3D1377CF...@serv.net...

| Ethan Young wrote:
|
| > "Mark Gradwell" <mark...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
| > news:IRJQ8.3327$n_2.1...@news8-gui.server.ntli.net...
| >
| > | Your political compass
| > | Economic Left/Right: -0.62
| > | Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.49
| > | ------
| > | According to this I'm a Liberal Democrat called Simon Hughes!
| > | AAAAGGGGHHHHHH!
| >
| > It's okay, Mark, Democrats aren't ALWAYS as bad as Republicans....
| > :-P
|
| Indeed; sometimes they are worse.

Six of one, half dozen of the other, please.

Ethan

Ethan Young

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Jun 21, 2002, 10:52:50 PM6/21/02

to

I'd like to point out I pretty much agree with everything Cynic said (except
for a small thing or two), and agreed with most of what Bill Thacker
said....responses below

"Cynic" <sdg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9nMQ8.280070$cQ3.13986@sccrnsc01...

YES! Indeed, this is what is happening.

I would say the enemy of my enemy is my asset....not friend. Friend is way
too strong. You can trust a friend (which will also be an asset). You
don't have to trust an asset (nor should you in all cases).

|
| >
| > 6. Jews surely have to take some of the responsibility for their
| > persecution over the past 2000 years.
| >
| > Agree. I'm not antisemitic, I just happen to think that the Jewish
| > practice of cultural separatism - marriage only within the
| > community, strict dietary laws and dress codes, a separate sabbath
| > day - guarantees that wherever they live they are seen as
| > mysterious outsiders. They're not to blame for the persecution
| > that results, but humans are a xenophobic lot; these customs
| > amount to waving a red flag in front of a bull. But I'm sure my
| > answer to this question is scored as "Right-wing nutcase".
|
| While I somewhat disagree with you here, I am often called an antisemite
for
| my views on the Israel/Palestine affair. I think one should be able to
| criticise actions of Jewish people without being labeled an antisemite.
|

Dressing differently, speaking differently, keeping to themselves is part of
their culture, a DIFFERENT culture. I don't see how they've done much to
warrant persecution...if they've actually DONE something deratory, please
let me know, but as far as I know, they were picked on cuz they killed Jesus
and because they were different. THAT is wrong.

| > 7. The growing fusion between information and entertainment is a
| > worrying contribution to the public's shrinking attention span.
| >
| > Agree. This leads to debate-by-soundbite, which is ridiculous.
| >
| > 8. Class background determines peoples' consciousness more than their
| > membership of a particular nation.
| >
| > Damned if I know, but since I can't be neutral, D.
| >
| > 9.Controlling inflation is more important than controlling
| > unemployment.
| >
| > SD. I think that so long as people are employed, the rest is
| > just numbers. (Implicit is the assumption that someone will
| > quit working rather than keep in a job that doesn't pay enough for
| > them to survive.) Controlling inflation is also vital for those
| > living on a fixed income - too little inflation kills them.
| >
| > 10. Corporations cannot be trusted to voluntarily respect the
| > environment.
| >
| > A. Most people would SA, but I think that's short-sighted.
| > Corporations will do whatever makes them profitable, and if we
| > can find a way to make bad environmental policies hit their
| > bottom line, they *will* voluntarily respect the environment.
| > As written, the question seems to be "Corporations will not
| > do good things that we don't pay them to do," which shouldn't
| > even be controversial enough to put in the quiz.

It's part of social responsibility. Sure, by neglecting the environment,
some businesses are making a slightly larger short-term profit. But as it
is, many corporations could care less about the long-term effects of their
actions, both socially, environmentally, and economically (which could end
up being bad for THEM). This is what I say: US Citizens must respect the
environment, or suffer the applicable consequences under the law.
Businesses are a groups of people, and therefore, they, too must obey the
law and respect the environment, especially since, being a larger body of
several entities, they leave a substantially larger footprint than an
individual (and therefore must be punished accordingly if they disobey).

| >
| >
| > 11. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
| > is a fundamentally good idea.
| >
| > SD. Like the Mao quote, this one from Marx cannot be separated
| > from what it implied - that capitalism is a bad economic system.
| > I do very much like the sound of this expression; indeed, for
| > some species other than humanity, it probably describes the
| > optimum. Unfortunately, humans are innately too selfish to
| > make this "fundamentally good vision" a "fundamentally good idea."

Capitalism is the best working system we've got right now. It's got its
flaws, but eventually, hopefully, something better WILL come along (and it
may not be all that different from current capitalsim) that I will embrace.
Until then...

| >
| > 12. It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as
| > drinking water is now a consumer product.
| >
| > SD. It's a fine tribute to capitalism that the market can produce
| > so many different variants of what people once thought was a
| > simple commodity. I also like being able to get a cold bottle of
| > water from machines that used to dispence only soda.
|
| Not sure where you are from, but here in the U.S. (New England), local
water
| quality is so poor that everyone buys gallons of water to drink. You just
| DON'T drink tap water around here unless you are risky or have had it
tested
| and it's ok.
| This is disturbing.

Yes. Water is the essence of life (crap...did I get that from Zoolander??).
We pay our water bills. We expect clean tap water from the mains. We
shoudn't have to buy the only water we can drink at outrageous prices when
we have it from the tap. 50% of all bottled waters are bottled at the
municipal water supply, anyway, which means they are only slightly better
than tap...paying outrageous prices for bottled tap water is outrageous.
(from a free issue of an E magazine)

I disagree with this. We don't have a right to trample other living being's
rights just to pursue our needs as they are based upon a system WE made up.
But like I said earlier, right now its the best system we've got right
now...how the hell are we going to manage land in a reasonable manner if
it's not "ownable" somehow? The best we can do is be conscientious of our
footprint, and try to reduce it as much as possible to keep the world a
livable place...for all creatures (includng us!)

| >
| > 14. Many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate
| > money and contribute nothing to their society.
| >
| > D. Manipulating money often *is* a contribution to society.
| > For example, after the last big San Francisco earthquake investors
| > rushed to buy stock in construction companies. They were just
| > manipulating money to make fortunes, but the increased demand
| > made the stock price go up, improving the companies' credit,
| > allowing them to purchase new capital equipment to gear up and
| > rebuild. I don't SD because I do agree that many of the
| > fortunes are made without achieving anything so noble as this.
| > I want to SD, though, because I think the equation of
| > "manipulate money" to "contribute nothing" shows a fundamentally
| > flawed view of economics.

Yeah..."nonexistent 'power crisis'" for example....

| >
| > 15. Protectionism is sometimes a necessary element in trade.
| >
| > SA. Sometimes trading partners in countries with different
| > gov'ts and economic systems leverage their national might to
| > torpedo one industry. The Japanese attacks on our IC industry
| > back in the 80s were a prime example. Now, if that never
| > happened, protectionism would never be necessary.
|
| I find it terribly strange that you answered how you did here but find
| globalization fine. Globalization's goal is to tear down the ability for
| countries to do what you are saying.
|
| > 16. The only social responsibility of a company should be to deliver
| > a profit to its shareholders.
| >
| > D. I'm not entirely sure what "responsibility" really means.
| > A company *should* contribute to its community; but I wouldn't
| > try to force it to do so. (Likewise, a person *should* do
| > some volunteer work, but not at gunpoint.)

They have the responsibility to NOT make things worse, just like citizens.
The only expectation of anyone is "maintaining the status-quo." What
exactly that is is up for debate constantly...

I didn't see much to disagree with here...I personally think they could be
taxed a bit more. The point is, the rich don't want to pay to live in
America, becase they have the money to not have to rely on the gov't
services on which everyone else relies. You live in America, you pay.
Period. Just because you don't FEEL like using a public pool cuz you have
your own doesn't mean you don't pay for it.

I don't think they should be taxed so much that they aren't "rich" anymore
(God forbid!), but they have enough money to make a more substantial
contribution to their fellow citizen's lives...

|
| >
| > 18. Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher
| > standards of medical care and education.
| >
| > SA, because I think if your money can't make you live longer,
| > there's something screwed up. But I favor minimum standards of
| > care, too. I also don't like the use of "right" in this
| > context, because it sounds like "The rich should have a separate
| > medical care system from the rest of us," which I don't support.
| > I merely think that if you have enough money, you should be allowed
| > to purchase any medical treatment available; that nobody
| > should deny you the right to spend your money to preserve your life.
| > If the government implements universal health care, and that
| > doesn't include (say) heart transplants, then I think I should have
| > the right to sell my house and pay for one myself if I need it.
|
| Well, to keep this one short, let me just say that I STRONGLY support
| universal health care.
|
| > 19. We'd be better off if companies simply told the truth, rather than
| > spending a fortune on manipulative consumer advertising.
| >
| > A. Of course, we'd also be better off if politicians told the
| > truth and if everyone was fair. The problem is that the truth is
| > too subjective. I'm sure the people at GM really do think their
| > cars are better than Ford's, and vice versa.

And if they didn't, it wouldn't matter. THey would still, and do still, say
so. Both car companies aren't that good, IMO (but that's a bit off-topic).

Free market often means, unfortunately, economically enslaved people...only
because greed exists becase money exists because for some reason some humans
get very greedy and want $$ at the expense of their fellow living beings'
lives and livelyhoods and habitats...

If there were NO business regulations, this world would be a HORRIBLE place
in which to live. People have regulation to thank for the fact that the
earth is still livable and they are still free people, not dominated by the
WTO or the like (like Cynic stated).

|
| > 21. Abortion, when the mother's life is not threatened, should always
| > be illegal.
| >
| > SD. It should always be legal the day after conception, for instance.
| >
| > 22. All authority must be questioned.
| >
| > SA. But that doesn't mean disobeyed.
| >
| > 23. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
| >
| > D. It's not usually appropriate, but sometimes it is the best way.

We got rid of that a while ago. Now, any formal punishment is cruel and
unusual punishment. We don't have punishment anymore in the USA. We have
two separate ways to rid society of a problematic person: Jail, and death.
The former is more expensive but reversible, the latter is less expensive,
and obviously not reversible.

We pay for other public facilities that are less necessary than theatres and
museums because they couldn't otherwise sustain themselves...if a particular
gov't wants to do it (because it is the will of the people) I see no harm.
Museums are also a resource, not just for entertainment, btw.

| > 25. Education should involve enabling children to develop their own
| > personality.
| >
| > How can I not agree? But I think kids' personalities are mostly
| > developed outside the classroom. I'm content that education does
| > not *prevent* their personality development. A.

Formal education from k-12 is trying to right now.....don't get too smug.

I tend to agree here...a properly educated and raised child shouldn't have
to be spanked at all...if the child has a condition and can't be kept "under
control" it still doesn't deserve to be spanked. It deserves treatment. I
see no reason for spanking...

| > 28. It's natural for children to keep some secrets from their parents.
| >
| > SA. Is there any other reasonable answer?
| >
| > 29. Marijuana and hashish should be legalised.
| >
| > SA. No worse than tobacco and alcohol.

Worse-o-meter (when abused):
1)Alcohol (contributes to over 100,000 deaths annually, acc. to Discover
magazine)
2)Tobacco (sooo addicting)
3)Marijuana (......minor lung problems? Developmental problems if abused at
a young age).

| >
| > 30. Schools pay too much attention to the arts and not enough towards
| > their real function - equipping the future generation to find jobs.
| >
| > SD. They don't pay much attention to the arts as it is. And I
| > see their function as more than job training; they should expose
| > kids to things that can enrich the rest of their lives. Since a
| > major, major source of enjoyment for me is band music, I
| > benefitted immensely from school arts. What schools pay too much
| > attention to is athletics. Show me some who's 41 and still plays
| > football 3 nights a week... :-)

YES!

I disagree. They are in the midst of a cultural crisis and a clash of
cultures. They don't have the stability to be "civilized" like we are in
the USA with our bottled drinking water, but that doesn't make them savage.
I would say any religion makes a culture more primitive, including the
USA...

A lot of it is oppression, NOT culture, anyway. I discriminate between the
two.

| >
| > 34. Those who are able to work and do not should not expect to eat.
| >
| > SA. I'd feed them anyway, but they should not *expect* me to.

Freeloaders are assholes. :-)

Okay, here goes: What is good for business in the long-term IS good for the
people...the problem is businesses don't always do what is best for them AND
the world in which they work (including its fellow inhabitants). Enron is a
prime example of this. Ignorance of the importance of environmental
maintenance is another...

|
| > 38. No broadcasting institutions should receive public funding.
| >
| > A. We should fund the Emergency Broadcast System, for instance,
| > and I think Voice of America is a good idea, too. But I don't
| > think we should fund PBS.

PBS is one of our best public assets. Public funding ensures that we don't
receive the same culture-filtered business BS that we recieve from private
broadcasting. But that, too, is slowly changing :-(

If a population wants to pay directly to receive informative, unbiased
information, I see no reason to object.

| >
| > 39. A government must give its citizens as much social freedom as
| > possible.
| >
| > SA. Hard to imagine someone answering otherwise, though it hinges
| > on the word "possible" - to me, that precludes anarchy, which is
| > more freedom than is possible to maintain.
| >
| > 40. A one-party state is better because it avoids all the arguments
| > that delay progress in a democratic political system.
| >
| > SD.

I don't like the party system. It's general and nondescript, and does
complicate things by segregating the gov't into factions that practically
hate each other. I don't think people need to conform into one party, but
instead completely INDIVIDUAL platforms where people vote for an individual
because of exactly WHAT that individual stands for...it wouldn't ruin
anything.

| >
| > 41. Although the electronic age makes official surveillance easier,
| > people who haven't done anything wrong shouldn't be worried.
| >
| > D. In fact, the police usually don't try to screw people
| > who aren't causing problems. Usually.
| >
| > 42. Capital punishment should be a judicial option.
| >
| > SD.
| >
| > 43. In a civilised society, one must always have people above to obey
| > and people below to command.
| >
| > SD. This doesn't even make sense. Who commands the President?
| > Who do I command? Is there actually a school of political
| > thinking that holds this to be true?

Technically, we command the president. He's supposed to serve US, and
represent US in one body (because we elected him, after all ;-).

Yes, rehabilitation...and like I said above, we really don't have much of
any punishment system in tact here.

Some maybe are. Some become bad. Either way, I think they could have
something positive to contribute to society...even if they can't be "good"
again (they can work for us).

I disagree. I think they are equally important. If you want to get picky,
farmers are the most important commodity to us. Everything else is
secondary. We don't need businesses or manufacturers to survive...just
community and food. Our current farming practices are
less-than-satisfactory right now, anyway. Horrible waste and extremely
inefficient, among other problems.

| >
| > 48. It's fine for women to have careers, but their first duty is to
| > be homemakers.
| >
| > SD.
| >
| > 49. On environmental issues, thinking globally and acting locally is
| > a basically good idea.
| >
| > A. Seems harmless enough.

"It's crazy enough...it just might work!" If everyone thought that way,
this world would be a better place. Because by everyone acting locally,
global action ensues, albeit in an incremental and controlled manner.

Yes!

"Innocent until proven guilty" Privacy is privacy...got reasonable cause?
Cool. No? Then don't even think of violating the privacy clause...it's
counter-productive.

"One day, science may give humans the option to be homo or hetero sexual"
I think is how we see it.

Here's my take on this: The "hinting at sex" is only bad because we aren't
open about it. If and when we do become truly open about sex, people can
hint at it all they want for all I care...I don't see it as an either or,
but as a one and then the other.

1)Openness
then
2)hinting/joking, etc

This is very important. You have to be serious about a subject before you
can truly joke about it (taking into account the definition of "joke," not
"nervously beat around the bush").

|
| >
| >
| >
| > So, my scores. On a +/- 10 point scale, I got
| >
| > Economic Left/Right: 3.12
| > Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.36
| >
| > This puts me moderately in the lower right quadrant. Interestingly,
| > I get the impression that the great majority fall in the upper right
| > or lower left quadrant; those of us in the other two are oddballs.
| >

Indeed! Haha, oddball! Oddball!

Ethan

pan

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Jun 21, 2002, 11:39:20 PM6/21/02

to

On 21 Jun 2002 16:20:47 GMT, forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert)

wrote:

>Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
>exercise on this group.
>
>http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>

>Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
>Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
>most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
>(libertarian-moderate).

my results: in the moderate range of the "libertarian left".

Economic Left/Right: -3.00
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.56

pan

Michael Stanley

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Jun 22, 2002, 12:07:42 AM6/22/02

to

"Lord Calvert" <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message

news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess
that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
graph
> (libertarian-moderate).
>

Economic Left/Right: -2.50
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -3.44

about what I figured.

--
AA #2039

EAC Ambassador to the DNRC

"The only difference between God and Adolf Hitler
is that God is more proficient at genocide."
Unknown, from http://www.math.unl.edu/%7Eaugustyn/godisdead.html

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Etherman

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Jun 22, 2002, 12:44:43 AM6/22/02

to

"Gregory Gadow" <tech...@serv.net> wrote in message

news:3D136277...@serv.net...

> > Wow. I'm -5.12, -5.38; apparently I'm a hard-left libertarian.
Funny, I would've
> > thought I was more moderate than that.
>
> For me, a lot of the questions were... well, questionable. I *hate*
multiple choice;
> too many of them I want to answer "Agree, but...." or "Strongly
disagree,
> however...."

Economic Left/Right: 3.88
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -2.15

I think these results are pretty much nonsense. I'm an
anarcho-capitalist. Too many questions try to infer a political stance
from a non-political question (e.g. the question about spanking
children) or don't give us a neither or undecided choice. The best
example is the question about controlling unemployment or inflation.
I'd say that I strongly disagree with the premise of the question.

Using two axes is much better than using just one, I think that we can
and should add more axes. At the very least we need an axis for
Isolationist-Globalist. There should also be a Green-Rape the Earth
axis.

--
Etherman

AA # pi

EAC Director of Ritual Satanic Abuse Operations

AMTCode(v2): [Poster][TÆ][A5][Lx][Sx][Bx][FD][P-][CC]

socode

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Jun 22, 2002, 2:37:58 AM6/22/02

to

"Adam Marczyk" <ebon...@hotmailNOTexcite.com> wrote in message
news:uh6mtik...@corp.supernews.com...

> Lord Calvert <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
> news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...
> > Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
interesting
> > exercise on this group.
> >
> > http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
> >
> > Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> > two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
> >
> > Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
guess
> that
> > most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
graph
> > (libertarian-moderate).
>

> Wow. I'm -5.12, -5.38; apparently I'm a hard-left libertarian. Funny, I
would've
> thought I was more moderate than that.

-5.62; -4.62

Me too; I suspect it's being skewed by my aversion to faith and
voluntary market controls ;)

socode

johac

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Jun 22, 2002, 3:55:27 AM6/22/02

to

In article <20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com>,
forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) wrote:

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
> interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
> guess that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of
> the graph
> (libertarian-moderate).

Pretty much. I'm a slightly left of center fairly strong libertarian.
I'd say that's accurate for me.

>
>
> Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX)
>
> "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so
> long as
> I'm the dictator." - George W. Bush, during a photo-op with
> Congressional
> leaders 18 December 2000
>

--

John Hachmann, aa #1782

It was the schoolboy who said: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910).

Meteorite Debris

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Jun 22, 2002, 5:30:01 AM6/22/02

to

On 21 Jun 2002 16:20:47 GMT the ET form known as Lord
Calvert<forl...@aol.comstipated> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
> (libertarian-moderate).
>
>

> Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX)

Libertarian Left. No surprise there.
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.79

The chart of UK pollies is a bit of a worry. It is weighted towards
Right Authoritarianism. I would guess that most countries would be
similar that since 9-11 there would have been a drift towards
authoritarianism.

--
apatriot #1, atheist #1417, rot-13 on email reply
Chief EAC prophet -
Evil Atheist Conspiracy
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov

Fingerprint for PGP Keys at key server or go to
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
RSA - 71 BA 7C 45 B5 4A 5F EA 72 DB EC 7F 7F A8 70 99
DSS (revoked) - 196D 0C35 95C9 BFD2 0677 C238 8FDE 0133 86E9 7B89

Mike Ruskai

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Jun 22, 2002, 5:37:09 AM6/22/02

to

On 21 Jun 2002 16:20:47 GMT, Lord Calvert wrote:

>Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
>exercise on this group.
>
>http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
>Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
>Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
>most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
>(libertarian-moderate).

I came out at about -3, -5.

However, the phrasing of many of the statements was ambiguous. Several had
me both agreeing and disagreeing, depending on the interpretation.

One in particular made no sense whatsoever - something like, "For
environmental issues, thinking globally and acting locally is basically a
good idea."

What does this mean? I disagreed, because the best interpretation I could
come up with was that "acting locally" meant acting only the interests of
one's immediate local environment. However, I can easily see another
interpretation, where "thinking globally" means considering the global
environmental impact of any given item of debate, and taking local action
based on that global thinking.

Too many of the statements were sufficiently ambiguous to allow opposite
answers, depending on the interpretation.

--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

Puck Greenman

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Jun 22, 2002, 6:12:41 AM6/22/02

to

On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 05:37:09 -0400 (EDT), "Mike Ruskai"
<spammoc.r...@begoneynnaht.net> wrote:

>On 21 Jun 2002 16:20:47 GMT, Lord Calvert wrote:
>
>>Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
>>exercise on this group.
>>
>>http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>>
>>Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>>two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>>
>>Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
>>most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
>>(libertarian-moderate).
>
>I came out at about -3, -5.
>
>However, the phrasing of many of the statements was ambiguous. Several had
>me both agreeing and disagreeing, depending on the interpretation.
>
>One in particular made no sense whatsoever - something like, "For
>environmental issues, thinking globally and acting locally is basically a
>good idea."
>
>What does this mean? I disagreed, because the best interpretation I could
>come up with was that "acting locally" meant acting only the interests of
>one's immediate local environment. However, I can easily see another
>interpretation, where "thinking globally" means considering the global
>environmental impact of any given item of debate, and taking local action
>based on that global thinking.

That is how I read it, and responded accordingly.

I thought that the "art & museums", question was ridiculous.
While museums are repositories for knowledge, and should therefore
be state financed, art serves no useful function.

My rating

Economic Left/Right: -4.62
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.69

>
>Too many of the statements were sufficiently ambiguous to allow opposite
>answers, depending on the interpretation.

Agreed. One question, I simply did not answer.

I am going to do it again, and ignore all of the ambiguous questions
--

Puck Greenman

The spelling Like any opinion stated here
is purely my own

#162 BAAWA Knight.
ICQ 15096558

MEow

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Jun 22, 2002, 7:10:42 AM6/22/02

to

forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) writes:

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
> interesting exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the
> bottom centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).
>

I got

Economic Left/Right: -5.50
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.21

I'm not surprised.

--
Nikitta on Ichi's computer. Kitten owned human
aa# 1759
"UNLESS you die, you are immortal." bd (afda)

Therion Ware

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Jun 22, 2002, 7:16:29 AM6/22/02

to

In alt.atheism (and doubtless elsewhere), on 22 Jun 2002 13:10:42
+0200, MEow <nik...@ichimusai.org> brought the total lines of text
written about "Re: OT - Political Compass" to 25. I decided to
observe the following about them:

>forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) writes:
>
>> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
>> interesting exercise on this group.
>>
>> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>>
>> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>>
>> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
>> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the
>> bottom centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).
>>
>I got
>
>Economic Left/Right: -5.50
>Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.21
>
>I'm not surprised.

Jesus, I'm a cross between Ghandi and Claire Short.

Terrifyingly accurate....
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
There is no EAC, so delete it from the email, if you want to communicate.

MEow

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Jun 22, 2002, 7:48:51 AM6/22/02

to

Therion Ware <tw...@video2cd.eac.com.eac> writes:

> >> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
> >> interesting exercise on this group.
> >>
> >> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
> >>
> >> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> >> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
> >>
> >> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
> >> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the
> >> bottom centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).
> >>
> >I got
> >
> >Economic Left/Right: -5.50
> >Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.21
> >
> >I'm not surprised.
>
> Jesus, I'm a cross between Ghandi and Claire Short.
>
> Terrifyingly accurate....

What numbers did you get?

--
Nikitta on Ichi's computer. Kitten owned human
aa# 1759

"The ratio of damn fools to villains is high" Robert Heinlein
(The Puppet Masters)

Therion Ware

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 8:13:21 AM6/22/02

to

In alt.atheism (and doubtless elsewhere), on 22 Jun 2002 13:48:51

+0200, MEow <nik...@ichimusai.org> brought the total lines of text

written about "Re: OT - Political Compass" to 32. I decided to

observe the following about them:

>Therion Ware <tw...@video2cd.eac.com.eac> writes:

>
>> >> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
>> >> interesting exercise on this group.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>> >>
>> >> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>> >> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>> >>
>> >> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
>> >> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the
>> >> bottom centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).
>> >>
>> >I got
>> >
>> >Economic Left/Right: -5.50
>> >Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.21
>> >
>> >I'm not surprised.
>>
>> Jesus, I'm a cross between Ghandi and Claire Short.
>>
>> Terrifyingly accurate....
>
>What numbers did you get?

Lost the page now, libertarian left.

Fred Stone

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 8:27:42 AM6/22/02

to

Etherman wrote:
> "Gregory Gadow" <tech...@serv.net> wrote in message
> news:3D136277...@serv.net...
>
>>>Wow. I'm -5.12, -5.38; apparently I'm a hard-left libertarian.
>>
> Funny, I would've
>
>>>thought I was more moderate than that.
>>
>>For me, a lot of the questions were... well, questionable. I *hate*
>
> multiple choice;
>
>>too many of them I want to answer "Agree, but...." or "Strongly
>
> disagree,
>
>>however...."
>
>
> Economic Left/Right: 3.88
> Authoritarian/Libertarian: -2.15
>
> I think these results are pretty much nonsense.

Your overt politics may differ from your emotional stance about issues.

> I'm an
> anarcho-capitalist. Too many questions try to infer a political stance
> from a non-political question (e.g. the question about spanking
> children)

That's a political question from when I was a kid. My parents wouldn't
consider it controversial either, they would strongly agree that
spanking is OK. :-(

> or don't give us a neither or undecided choice.

It's called "forced selection" in psych test design. If the test is
designed right, they factor in with everything else. This test probably
wasn't designed right.

> The best
> example is the question about controlling unemployment or inflation.
> I'd say that I strongly disagree with the premise of the question.
>
> Using two axes is much better than using just one, I think that we can
> and should add more axes. At the very least we need an axis for
> Isolationist-Globalist. There should also be a Green-Rape the Earth
> axis.

That's how they got these two axes, by *starting* with them. The *right
way* would take a lot more work, doing multiple different factor
analyses of very broad-based surveys to pick out the types of questions
that had the most impact on the groupings that showed up in the data.
Just figuring out how many axes to use, without giving any of them
specific labels, can be a major effort.

And then figuring out what the axes *mean* is another exercise.

As an example of what happens when you're sloppy about your factor
analysis, look at Hammond and his Eigenvectors.

Mark Whickman

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 8:47:50 AM6/22/02

to

"Lord Calvert" <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess
that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
graph
> (libertarian-moderate).
>

Libertarian left of centre - Just a bit less left than Gandhi.

Mark Whickman

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 8:50:42 AM6/22/02

to

"Ethan Young" <laisse...@att.net> wrote in message
news:eyKQ8.47754$LC3.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

>
> "Mark Gradwell" <mark...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
> news:IRJQ8.3327$n_2.1...@news8-gui.server.ntli.net...
> |

> | > Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX)
> | >

> | > "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so
> long
> | as
> | > I'm the dictator." - George W. Bush, during a photo-op with
> Congressional
> | > leaders 18 December 2000
> | >

> | -------

> | Your political compass
> | Economic Left/Right: -0.62
> | Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.49
> | ------
> | According to this I'm a Liberal Democrat called Simon Hughes!
> | AAAAGGGGHHHHHH!
>
> It's okay, Mark, Democrats aren't ALWAYS as bad as Republicans....
> :-P
>

Wrong country.

Therion Ware

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 8:54:13 AM6/22/02

to

In alt.atheism (and doubtless elsewhere), on Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:47:50
+0100, "Mark Whickman" <markwh...@blackfortress.freeserve.co.uk>

brought the total lines of text written about "Re: OT - Political

Compass" to 22. I decided to observe the following about them:

Ha! That means you don't get to sleep with many naked young women with
a view to testing your vow of celibacy.

MEow

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 9:28:47 AM6/22/02

to

Therion Ware <tw...@video2cd.eac.com.eac> writes:

> >> >> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
> >> >> interesting exercise on this group.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
> >> >>
> >> >> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> >> >> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
> >> >>
> >> >> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
> >> >> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the
> >> >> bottom centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).
> >> >>
> >> >I got
> >> >
> >> >Economic Left/Right: -5.50
> >> >Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.21
> >> >
> >> >I'm not surprised.
> >>
> >> Jesus, I'm a cross between Ghandi and Claire Short.
> >>
> >> Terrifyingly accurate....
> >
> >What numbers did you get?
>
> Lost the page now, libertarian left.

MTAAW, but now we can't see how much. Well - nevermind...

--
Nikitta on Ichi's computer. Kitten owned human
aa# 1759

"Is Scotland in Europe?" - A man in the local kiosk

Mark Whickman

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 11:49:46 AM6/22/02

to

"Therion Ware" <tw...@video2cd.eac.com.eac> wrote in message
news:7ps8huo6mmn738m4j...@4ax.com...

> In alt.atheism (and doubtless elsewhere), on Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:47:50
> +0100, "Mark Whickman" <markwh...@blackfortress.freeserve.co.uk>
> brought the total lines of text written about "Re: OT - Political
> Compass" to 22. I decided to observe the following about them:
>
> >
> >"Lord Calvert" <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote in message
> >news:20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com...
> >> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
> >interesting
> >> exercise on this group.
> >>
> >> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
> >>
> >> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> >> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
> >>
> >> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
guess
> >that
> >> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of
the
> >graph
> >> (libertarian-moderate).
> >>
> >
> >Libertarian left of centre - Just a bit less left than Gandhi.
>
> Ha! That means you don't get to sleep with many naked young women with
> a view to testing your vow of celibacy.

So that's why I can't pull....

Ethan Young

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 2:59:09 PM6/22/02

to

"Mark Whickman" <markwh...@blackfortress.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message news:af26bp$m81$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

Hehe, it's not my celibacy I'D be testing....I already know THAT works...

Ethan
and I WAS VERY close to Ghandi's position....woot!
|

Ethan Young

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 2:59:08 PM6/22/02

to

"Mark Whickman" <markwh...@blackfortress.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in

message news:af1rs0$ft0$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

Oh come on, does it REALLY matter? I thought politicians were pretty
universally evil (with a few exceptions)....

Ethan

|
|

Therion Ware

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 3:04:19 PM6/22/02

to

In alt.atheism (and doubtless elsewhere), on Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:59:09
GMT, "Ethan Young" <laisse...@att.net> brought the total lines of
text written about "Re: OT - Political Compass" to 49. I decided to

<nonchalance>anyone want to sleep over?</nonchalance>

Brian Kunst

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 3:39:14 PM6/22/02

to

forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) wrote in message news:<20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com>...

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
> (libertarian-moderate).
>
>

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.03

Damn, I'm further left and more libertarian than Ghandi?

Brian Kunst a.a. 1986

phobos

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 5:42:53 PM6/22/02

to

"Etherman" <ether...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<%gTQ8.283405$cQ3.13671@sccrnsc01>...

> Using two axes is much better than using just one, I think that we can
> and should add more axes. At the very least we need an axis for
> Isolationist-Globalist. There should also be a Green-Rape the Earth
> axis.

Hmm... left-liberal globalist earth-rapist, I think...

Last time I tried politicalcompass I was a little bit left and a _long_ way south.

Jowysiren

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 6:54:06 PM6/22/02

to

>art serves no useful function.
>

WHAT!? So far as I'm concerned, art has a multitude of uses ranging from
entertainment, to escapism, to communicating to gettting people to THINK! Or at
least try to.

I think that art is the best thing that ever happened to this world and I would
die without it. So would a lot of people.

Kania
aa#1755 Decon#49
http://jowysiren.sexsexworld.com

Jeremy Martin

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 7:31:44 PM6/22/02

to

[alt.atheism] Puck Greenman (pu...@pooks.hill.fey):

> art serves no useful function.

Uh..

Sorry, boys and girls, but all expression will be drained from the world
now because it has no useful function.

Sorry!

--
Jeremy Martin (Dethstryk) aa #75C
BAAWA Knit

"Consider the ignorance of the average fundamentalist. Then realize that by
definition fully half of them must be even dumber than that."
- Velvet Elvis

Jeremy Martin

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 7:45:39 PM6/22/02

to

[alt.atheism] Lord Calvert (forl...@aol.comstipated):

> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
> interesting exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>
> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom
> centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.50
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.56

So, I'm a left-leaning libertarian. I hate labels.

--
Jeremy Martin (Dethstryk) aa #75C
BAAWA Knit

"I want a 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ' as much as I want
'rusty nails pounded through my dick.'"
- Altivec, SA Forums

Ethan Young

unread,

Jun 22, 2002, 9:41:54 PM6/22/02

to

"Therion Ware" <tw...@video2cd.eac.com.eac> wrote in message

news:6gi9huk9r7lpdmi7j...@4ax.com...

<nonchalance>who's bringing the spritely young virgins?</nonchalance>

Ethan

Mark Whickman

unread,

Jun 23, 2002, 10:56:17 AM6/23/02

to

"Ethan Young" <laisse...@att.net> wrote in message

news:0O3R8.49289$LC3.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

An American democrat is horrifically right wing compared to a British
liberal democrat. What I find frightening is that the American republicans
are more right wing than the conservative party. *gibber*

Ethan Young

unread,

Jun 23, 2002, 5:16:07 PM6/23/02

to

"Mark Whickman" <markwh...@blackfortress.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in

message news:af4njf$81n$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

I'm in denial. Go away. You're scaring me.

Ethan
crap...I hate cruel reminders...

|

Walking on Glass

unread,

Jun 23, 2002, 6:42:31 PM6/23/02

to

Therion Ware wrote in news:t2n8huo9cm57irm6d...@4ax.com:

> In alt.atheism (and doubtless elsewhere), on 22 Jun 2002 13:10:42
> +0200, MEow <nik...@ichimusai.org> brought the total lines of text
> written about "Re: OT - Political Compass" to 25. I decided to
> observe the following about them:
>
>>forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) writes:
>>
>>> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
>>> interesting exercise on this group.
>>>
>>> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>>>
>>> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>>> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>>>
>>> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
>>> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the
>>> bottom centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).
>>>
>>I got
>>
>>Economic Left/Right: -5.50
>>Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.21
>>
>>I'm not surprised.
>
> Jesus, I'm a cross between Ghandi and Claire Short.
>
> Terrifyingly accurate....

At -3.88,-5.03 I'm nestling between Red Ken and Simon Hughes.

--
Walking on Glass (remove NOSPAM to email me)
Zymurgist #12
"If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or
you can inoculate...Try science"
Carl Sagan - "The Demon-Haunted World"

Elf Sternberg

unread,

Jun 23, 2002, 6:54:24 PM6/23/02

to

In article <lti8hucurs993abvl...@4ax.com>
Puck Greenman <pu...@pooks.hill.fey> writes:

> I thought that the "art & museums", question was ridiculous.
>While museums are repositories for knowledge, and should therefore be
>state financed, art serves no useful function.

I disagree that either museums or galleries need state funding.
Art serves a number of extraordinarily useful functions; art is one of
the major sources of human pleasure, and pleasing people is the
fundamental engine that drives civilization.

It's certainly preferable to driving civilization on pain.
That's religion's job.

Elf

--
Elf M. Sternberg
Disproportionately Popular Among Homosexuals.
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/ (under construction)

Therion Ware

unread,

Jun 23, 2002, 7:05:01 PM6/23/02

to

In alt.atheism (and doubtless elsewhere), on 23 Jun 2002 22:42:31 GMT,
Walking on Glass <walking_...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> brought the
total lines of text written about "Re: OT - Political Compass" to 41.

I decided to observe the following about them:

>Therion Ware wrote in news:t2n8huo9cm57irm6d...@4ax.com:
>
>> In alt.atheism (and doubtless elsewhere), on 22 Jun 2002 13:10:42
>> +0200, MEow <nik...@ichimusai.org> brought the total lines of text
>> written about "Re: OT - Political Compass" to 25. I decided to
>> observe the following about them:
>>
>>>forl...@aol.comstipated (Lord Calvert) writes:
>>>
>>>> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
>>>> interesting exercise on this group.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>>>>
>>>> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>>>> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>>>>
>>>> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
>>>> guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around the
>>>> bottom centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).
>>>>
>>>I got
>>>
>>>Economic Left/Right: -5.50
>>>Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.21
>>>
>>>I'm not surprised.
>>
>> Jesus, I'm a cross between Ghandi and Claire Short.
>>
>> Terrifyingly accurate....
>
>At -3.88,-5.03 I'm nestling between Red Ken and Simon Hughes.

That's one way to get votes, I suppose!

MEow

unread,

Jun 24, 2002, 6:57:34 AM6/24/02

to

bku...@ups.edu (Brian Kunst) writes:

> > http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
> >
> > Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> > two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
> >
> > Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I
> > would guess that most cluster around where I do somewhere around
> > the bottom centre of the graph (libertarian-moderate).
> >
> >
>
> Your political compass
> Economic Left/Right: -6.75
> Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.03
>
> Damn, I'm further left and more libertarian than Ghandi?
>

No worries. IIRC, so am I. So?

--
Nikitta on Ichi's computer. Kitten owned human
aa# 1759

"What's more disturbing is that she appears to be using Gnus.
I wonder if any imploding took place." Bz2 (afdaniain)

Mark Whickman

unread,

Jun 24, 2002, 9:43:34 AM6/24/02

to

"Ethan Young" <laisse...@att.net> wrote in message

news:rUqR8.50657$LC3.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

*puts on elephant and donkey masks and speaks through both of them*

blaaaaa.....

Bill Thacker

unread,

Jun 24, 2002, 5:07:13 PM6/24/02

to

In article <%gTQ8.283405$cQ3.13671@sccrnsc01>,

Etherman <ether...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Using two axes is much better than using just one, I think that we can
>and should add more axes. At the very least we need an axis for
>Isolationist-Globalist. There should also be a Green-Rape the Earth
>axis.

Damned anarchists... they've always got axes to grind.

:-)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker BAAWA Knight, Atheist #1363 bi...@woods-car.com
Bill's Rail Buggy Page: http://www.woods-car.com

Director of the EAC Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Fast Cars,
and Pornography.

"Be nice to your neighbor. Be hell to his ideas."
Jim Versluys, editor, The Texas Mercury

Bill Thacker

unread,

Jun 25, 2002, 4:32:12 PM6/25/02

to

In article <9nMQ8.280070$cQ3.13986@sccrnsc01>, Cynic <sdg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Bill Thacker" <w...@cbemi.cb.lucent.com> wrote in message
>news:af00tt$a...@nntpb.cb.lucent.com...
>> In article <20020621122047...@mb-fa.aol.com>,

>> Lord Calvert <forl...@aol.comstipated> wrote:
>> >Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
>interesting
>> >exercise on this group.
>> >
>> >http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>>

>> OK... for your amusement, I'll take this interactively.
>>
>You're inviting some comments on these by posting, so I must....

My main purpose was to show how many of the quiz questions forced me
into answers that probably distorted the outcome of the test; e.g.,
forcing me to say "I think the Jews are somewhat the cause of their
own problem", which to me is a statement on human psychology, not
anti-semitism. But I have no objection to discussing the answers
themselves...

(But geez, couldn't you have trimmed out the unnecessary quoted
text? It's a common courtesy...)

>> 1. If globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity
>> rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.
>>
>> I answer A. This is because it's not at all obvious that these
>> two interests are mutually opposing. Corporations are made of
>> people, and their income are paid out to people. I think this
>> is really a class-envy question: substitute "the wealthy" for
>> "trans-national corporations."
>
>I feel that globalization and interests of MOST people are not compatible.
>Globalization allows corporations to use job flight to other countries as a
>weapon against labor.

I can't deny that. But let's picture the world in reverse, shall we?
Suppose there was already global free trade, and the jobs had
shifted around, resulting in lower salaries and work spread
across the world.

Now, imagine someone in the US saying, "It's not right that all
those people in Mexico have jobs building cars. Let's pass a law
that forces automakers to put the jobs here, and then we'll
demand higher salaries." Could you defend such a law? How
would you convince the Mexicans that they need to remain unemployed -
or at least, to keep doing unskilled, nasty jobs instead of
nice, clean factory work - so that we Yanks can enjoy pay raises?

>More importantly, have you ever heard what the globalization proponents are
>really shooting for? Most modern world trade organizations want an
>unaccountable pseudo-government running the world.

Could be. But I can oppose that while supporting free trade.

>Nation states can be
>brought to "court" for violating trade clauses which give all power to the
>corporations and strip national sovereignty. These courts are not open to
>the public, nor are the people who make decisions voted on. This is
>anti-democracy, plain and simple.

I'm ignorant of the courts you're describing, unless you mean things
like the World Trade Organization.

Anti-democratic? Yes and no. If the nations of Europe, all
democratic nations, agree to drop trade barriers per some
treaty, that's democratic. Now, Germany had a law called the
Reinheitsgebot - the famous beer purity law that says you
cannot call a product "beer" if it contains anything apart from
water, barley malt, yeast and hops. Under this law, they
prohibit the import of Guinness Extra Stout, which claims
to be beer but had other additives. England claims this
is an unfair trade barrier.

How would you resolve the dispute? Have the people of Germany
vote whether to accept that claim and void their law?

I think it's pretty reasonable to have a court make a judgement.
Now, I agree that closed hearings and anonymous, non-elected
judges are dubious concepts - though if the judges are elected,
by whom? (In the example, I'd say by the EC Parliament.) No
point making it a popular vote; that just says that the biggest
nation gets to put its buddy in charge of the decision.

And the claim that this is non-democratic is a little silly.
These courts are empowered by treaties, and the citizens of
a nation can always demand that their country withdraw
from the treaty. At no time is a nation's sovereignty in
question, only the conditions under which it may trade
with its neighbors.

>In 1997, the Ethyl Corporation filed a lawsuit against the Canadian
>government. It sued for Canada's ban on a toxic gasoline additive (MMT or
>MTM??). Anyway, NAFTA gave them the right to do this. If you don't find this
>troubling, I'm not sure why.

See above; should Germany get to ban 99% of imported beer
because of national taste, yet still claim to be a free trading
partner?

If Canada needs to ban that additive, they either need to convince
their trading partners to accept that, or stop demanding the
benefits of free trade and thus lose money from overseas markets.
Nobody's saying they have to accept poisoned products.

>> 5. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
>>
>> Agree. Not because the statement is true when you dissect it. This
>> is a quote - of Mao, I think - and as such is a somewhat
>> poetic expression. It would be more correct to say, "The enemy of
>> my enemy is my ally," which is really the thought being conveyed.
>> If I were ignorant of that background, I would argue that logically
>> the statement above is nonsense.
>
>You have to remember that the U.S. has often used this line of thought when
>choosing their friends. (previous friends include: Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan,
>etc.)

Of course. It's also how we gained our independence - France
helped us because we were the enemy of their enemy.

>> 12. It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as
>> drinking water is now a consumer product.
>>
>> SD. It's a fine tribute to capitalism that the market can produce
>> so many different variants of what people once thought was a
>> simple commodity. I also like being able to get a cold bottle of
>> water from machines that used to dispence only soda.
>
>Not sure where you are from, but here in the U.S. (New England), local water
>quality is so poor that everyone buys gallons of water to drink. You just
>DON'T drink tap water around here unless you are risky or have had it tested
>and it's ok.

Wow, sure sucks to live there! Why do you put up with this? Here
in Ohio my local water is safe - we have laws against pollution
that aren't perfect but at least leave the water safe enough that
you don't have to worry about drinking it.

But our water does have a high iron content and unpleasant taste.
When my parents were my age, that was tough bananas - the water is
the water and if you don't like it, move. I think it's cool that
instead of having to live with what's here, I can A) hook up to
city water, which is treated, or B) buy bottled water.

>> 15. Protectionism is sometimes a necessary element in trade.
>>
>> SA. Sometimes trading partners in countries with different
>> gov'ts and economic systems leverage their national might to
>> torpedo one industry. The Japanese attacks on our IC industry
>> back in the 80s were a prime example. Now, if that never
>> happened, protectionism would never be necessary.
>
>I find it terribly strange that you answered how you did here but find
>globalization fine. Globalization's goal is to tear down the ability for
>countries to do what you are saying.

Did you read my entire answer? I only support protectionism when
a trading partner is not playing fair. It's a little like
saying guns are necessary to preserve peace.

If the statement had been, "Protectionism is sometimes a necessary
element in FREE trade" I'd have answered SD.

>> 18. Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher
>> standards of medical care and education.
>>
>> SA, because I think if your money can't make you live longer,
>> there's something screwed up. But I favor minimum standards of
>> care, too. I also don't like the use of "right" in this
>> context, because it sounds like "The rich should have a separate
>> medical care system from the rest of us," which I don't support.
>> I merely think that if you have enough money, you should be allowed
>> to purchase any medical treatment available; that nobody
>> should deny you the right to spend your money to preserve your life.
>> If the government implements universal health care, and that
>> doesn't include (say) heart transplants, then I think I should have
>> the right to sell my house and pay for one myself if I need it.
>
>Well, to keep this one short, let me just say that I STRONGLY support
>universal health care.

That's fine. Do you support making it illegal for people to pursue
medical treatment outside the universal plan?

>> 37. What's good for the most successful corporations is always,
>> ultimately, good for all of us.
>>
>> A. Not really always, but usually.
>
>You're kidding?

No. As the saying goes, "The business of America is business."
I owe my entire lifestyle to successful corporations; without
them, I'd be grubbing in the dirt for a living - literally, since
I wouldn't have iron plows and tractors like my grandfather did.

Where do corporate profits go? Into my paycheck as salary; into
tax coffers; into dividends payments to stockholders and
profits to investors. The success of a corporation benefits all
who are involved with it. You seem to see corporations as your
enemy; I see them as us.

Etherman

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Jun 28, 2002, 2:55:45 PM6/28/02

to

"Fred Stone" <fsto...@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:3D146D3E...@earthling.com...

> Etherman wrote:
> Your overt politics may differ from your emotional stance about
issues.

Take this question for example: One day, science may be able to cure
homosexuality. What could possibly be gleaned from the answer that
relates to politics or economics? I agreed (with reservations about
the term cure). Presumably this answer pushes me towards the
authoritarian camp, like my agreement about spanking children. While
science may some day be able to "cure" homosexuality I'd never want to
force anyone into taking the cure. Likewise, I think spanking is
useful as psychological conditioning for children I don't think the
logic should carry over to adults being physically punished by the
state to instill morals.

--
Etherman

AA # pi

EAC Director of Ritual Satanic Abuse Operations

AMTCode(v2): [Poster][TÆ][A5][Lx][Sx][Bx][FD][P-][CC]

Fred Stone

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Jun 28, 2002, 3:21:31 PM6/28/02

to

Etherman wrote:
> "Fred Stone" <fsto...@earthling.com> wrote in message
> news:3D146D3E...@earthling.com...
>
>>Etherman wrote:
>>Your overt politics may differ from your emotional stance about
>
> issues.
>
> Take this question for example: One day, science may be able to cure
> homosexuality. What could possibly be gleaned from the answer that
> relates to politics or economics?

That's a big right-wing thing, "curing" homosexuals.

> I agreed (with reservations about
> the term cure). Presumably this answer pushes me towards the
> authoritarian camp, like my agreement about spanking children. While
> science may some day be able to "cure" homosexuality I'd never want to
> force anyone into taking the cure. Likewise, I think spanking is
> useful as psychological conditioning for children I don't think the
> logic should carry over to adults being physically punished by the
> state to instill morals.

Corporal punishment was a BIG issue when I was a kid. BIG political
issue over whether schools should be allowed to spank. Now they call it
ADD and prescribe Ritalin.

lisac77

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Jun 28, 2002, 9:41:40 PM6/28/02

to

Lord Calvert wrote:
> Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an interesting
> exercise on this group.
>
> http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>

> Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>
> Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would guess that
> most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the graph
> (libertarian-moderate).
>
>
> Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX)
>
> "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as
> I'm the dictator." - George W. Bush, during a photo-op with Congressional
> leaders 18 December 2000
>

I got a strong libertarian-left.

Later,
Lisa C.
a.a #2017

hypa...@comcast.net

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Jun 29, 2002, 12:55:58 AM6/29/02

to

"lisac77" <la_la_li...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3D1D0F0B...@yahoo.com...

> Lord Calvert wrote:
> > Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
interesting
> > exercise on this group.
> >
> > http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
> >
> > Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
> > two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
> >
> > Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
guess that
> > most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
graph
> > (libertarian-moderate).

Right on the nose with Ghandi Liberal leftist.
--
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list #1
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
http://www.geocities.com/hypatiab7/

stoney

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Jun 29, 2002, 11:40:08 AM6/29/02

to

On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 04:55:58 GMT, <hypa...@comcast.net>, Message
ID: <y5bT8.439974$Gs.32...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;

>
>"lisac77" <la_la_li...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:3D1D0F0B...@yahoo.com...
>> Lord Calvert wrote:
>> > Someone on another list just sent me this. Thought it would be an
>interesting
>> > exercise on this group.
>> >
>> > http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
>> >
>> > Instead of a one-dimensional right-left determination this uses a
>> > two-dimensional graph; right-left and authoritarian-libertarian.
>> >
>> > Just curious as to where the rest of the regulars here rate. I would
>guess that
>> > most cluster around where I do somewhere around the bottom centre of the
>graph
>> > (libertarian-moderate).
>
>Right on the nose with Ghandi Liberal leftist.

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.62
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.54

a little to the right and down from that point.
--

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!