The Reasons why
Trevor Mytton
either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This faith
comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
isn't it true?
But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
When I say..."I am a Christian"
I'm not shouting "I am saved"
I'm whispering "I get lost!"
"That is why I chose this way."
When I say..."I am a Christian"
I don't speak of this with pride.
I'm confessing that I stumble
and need someone to be my guide.
When I say..."I am a Christian"
I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I'm weak
and pray for strength to carry on.
When I say..."I am a Christian"
I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed
and cannot ever pay the debt.
When I say..."I am a Christian"
I'm not claiming to be perfect,
my flaws are too visible
but God believes I'm worth it.
When I say..."I am a Christian"
I still feel the sting of pain
I have my share of heartaches
which is why I seek His name.
When I say..."I am a Christian"
I do not wish to judge.
I have no authority.
I only know I'm loved.
Arturo Magidin
Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This faith
>comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience....
That's very nice. But let me tell you what my problem with that is.
You decided to come to me, here, in alt.atheism. I am, of course, an
atheist. Moreover, you came here with the intent of convincing me of
something. As such, it seems not only reasonable, but also fair, that
I be allowed to set the conditions under which I will listen to you.
In other words: in order to justify your faith to ->yourself<-, you
may use whatever measures or standars you wish. But in order to
convince ->me<- that I should share ->your<- faith, then you need to
use ->my<- measures and ->my<- standards. Even more so if you came
here uninvited to try to convince me of something.
Imagine I drop by your house uninvited, probably unwanted, and start
arguing with you about the layout of the house and the furniture
therein. I assure you that I put bookcases in such and such a
relationship with the TV, and the TV in such and such a relation with
the door. Imagine, moreover, that there are very good reasons for such
an arrangement (for example, placing the TV elsewhere would mean glare
at certain hours from the window). That's fine for me. But why should
I tell you how to arrange your furniture in your house, even more if
your layout is not even the same as mine?
Now, had you asked me to come over and share my thoughts on home
furniture arrangements, I might have a case in justifying my
comments. But if I wasn't, on what grounds could I possibly demand
that you arrange your house based on the plans for mine and on my
standards and ideals?
Because that is what you are doing here. Coming to my house and telling
me that I ->should<- use ->your<- standards and measures to evaluate
and be convinced.
Now, since you are trying to convince me, please be so kind as to
abide by the standards and measures which ->I<- find convincing.
If all you want to do is witness your faith, then you are in the wrong
place. If you don't want to convince me, then feel free to use
whatever standards you want (or use the standards that the person you
->are<- trying to convince sets up for you to meet). But don't
complain that you disagree with the standards I find convincing if you
are trying to convince me.
> is it or isn't it true?
>
>But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
To you, perhaps. Good for you.
To me, it is not a matter of choice. I don't "choose" to be an
atheist. I happen to be one. If it were a matter of choice, believe
me, 'atheism' in our society is a masochist's choice. Why on Earth
would anyone purposely subject himself to the sheer amount of
prejudice and insult an atheist does, if it were really simply a
matter of choice?
But it isn't one. Given my understanding of the world, my knowledge of
religion and philosophy, and my observations, I have ->no choice<- but
to be an atheist. Any other conclusion would be lying to myself.
You may be able to "choose" your beliefs. I'm too honest with myself
to be anything other than an atheist.
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
mag...@math.berkeley.edu
Don Kresch
wrote:
>So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
Thus irrational. Thus you admit that you have no reason to
believe that there is a god other than your wish that there is one.
> This faith
>comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>isn't it true?
>
>But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
>When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> "That is why I chose this way."
Tacit admission that you don't want to take responsibility for
your own life.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I don't speak of this with pride.
> I'm confessing that I stumble
> and need someone to be my guide.
Ditto the above.
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not trying to be strong.
> I'm professing that I'm weak
> and pray for strength to carry on.
Ditto the above and that you feel you're worthless piece of
shit.
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not bragging of success.
> I'm admitting I have failed
> and cannot ever pay the debt.
Ditto the last above.
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> my flaws are too visible
> but God believes I'm worth it.
Ditto the last above.
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I still feel the sting of pain
> I have my share of heartaches
> which is why I seek His name.
Tacit admission that you want to have an invisible friend to
lean on.
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I do not wish to judge.
> I have no authority.
> I only know I'm loved.
Ditto the above.
Don
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, EAC Decryption Squad
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
Packman
>
> So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
> comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> isn't it true?
You just described self-hypnosis. Years of telling yourself that you're
a worthless sinner. You destroy your own self-image, then build it back
up with some make believe saviour. It's worthless.
Greg Shelley
Trevor Mytton wrote:
>
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
snip
that's nice. When you say "I am a Christian" we say "Fuck off and tell
it to someone who cares"
--
Greg #1636
raven1
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
Trevor, the problem non-believers have with this is that to be blunt,
believing in something on "faith" with no supporting evidence is
pretty silly. It may make you feel good, but there's no reason to
think that your "faith" corresponds in any way with reality. You might
just as well profess "faith" in Bigfoot, UFO abductions, the Loch Ness
monster, leprechauns or gnomes. The "God" concept deserves no
different or special treatment: if you wouldn't put your "faith" in
any of the above (and I hope you wouldn't; if you would, you're among
the ranks of the truly gullible, and I have some nice Real Estate in
Florida to sell you), there's no reason to put it in the existence of
some kind of "God".
>This faith
>comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>isn't it true?
And as you demonstrate below, you throw reason out the window and
decide to accept it as true simply because you *want* it to be true.
Sorry, Trevor, but that's not the pathway to truth, it's the pathway
to self-delusion. It's an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
>But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
Exactly: the choice being are you going to use your brain or put it
aside.
>
>When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> "That is why I chose this way."
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I don't speak of this with pride.
> I'm confessing that I stumble
> and need someone to be my guide.
Everyone makes mistakes. Recognizing that is part of growing up.
Learning to take responsibility for your own actions, rather than
looking for a guide is the answer.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not trying to be strong.
> I'm professing that I'm weak
> and pray for strength to carry on.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not bragging of success.
> I'm admitting I have failed
> and cannot ever pay the debt.
Please, spare us the breast-beating "mea culpa". No one is perfect.
Learn to deal with it.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> my flaws are too visible
> but God believes I'm worth it.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I still feel the sting of pain
> I have my share of heartaches
> which is why I seek His name.
You might try recognizing that it's OK not to be perfect, and to
forgive yourself for it. You might find that when you're able to
forgive yourself, you feel less need to create an imaginary
father-figure to forgive you.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I do not wish to judge.
> I have no authority.
> I only know I'm loved.
Pure arrested development. Theism as the desire to remain in a
childlike state, with an omniscient parent figure to rely on to make
decisions, judge one's actions, and absolve them of responsibility for
them.
Trevor Mytton
Don Kresch <rot13....@xeylax.pbz.getridof.com> wrote in message
news:c458qsoku5qst0ncg...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, in alt.atheism, Trevor Mytton
> wrote:
>
> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
>
> believe that there is a god other than your wish that there is one.
>
> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> >isn't it true?
> >
> >
> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> > "That is why I chose this way."
>
> your own life.
>
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I don't speak of this with pride.
> > I'm confessing that I stumble
> > and need someone to be my guide.
>
>
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I'm not trying to be strong.
> > I'm professing that I'm weak
> > and pray for strength to carry on.
>
> shit.
>
> > I'm not bragging of success.
> > I'm admitting I have failed
> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
>
>
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> > my flaws are too visible
> > but God believes I'm worth it.
>
>
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I still feel the sting of pain
> > I have my share of heartaches
> > which is why I seek His name.
>
>
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I have no authority.
> > I only know I'm loved.
>
>
>
Exactly!
Trevor Mytton
Packman <pma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:D8983FD60947C1D7.5238DF2B...@lp.airnews.net...
> Trevor Mytton wrote:
> >
> > So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to
provide
faith
> > comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it
or
> > isn't it true?
>
> a worthless sinner. You destroy your own self-image, then build it back
> up with some make believe saviour. It's worthless.
NO. For worthless try meaningless
Shep
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This faith
>comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>isn't it true?
>
>But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
>When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> "That is why I chose this way."
"And you better chose the same way as I did or you are going to hell!"
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I don't speak of this with pride.
> I'm confessing that I stumble
> and need someone to be my guide.
"But i still think i am better than you"
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not trying to be strong.
> I'm professing that I'm weak
> and pray for strength to carry on.
"Because i cant live without a greater purpose"
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not bragging of success.
> I'm admitting I have failed
> and cannot ever pay the debt.
"Although i think someone paid it for me"
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> my flaws are too visible
> but God believes I'm worth it.
"And doesnt think you are"
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I still feel the sting of pain
> I have my share of heartaches
> which is why I seek His name.
"Because i cant do anything for myself"
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I do not wish to judge.
> I have no authority.
> I only know I'm loved.
"Because god exists, and I AM RIGHT"
>
>
>
Trevor, you may have your reasons such as this, but it doesnt mean we
need to agree with them. It is, as you stated, your CHOICE to be a
christian. Quit pushing it on everyone else.
Trevor Mytton
Arturo Magidin <mag...@math.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:8o12ui$6f9$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> In article <8o11vu$m9f$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This
faith
> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience....
>
>
> >
> >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
>
> To me, it is not a matter of choice. I don't "choose" to be an
> atheist. I happen to be one. If it were a matter of choice, believe
> me, 'atheism' in our society is a masochist's choice. Why on Earth
> would anyone purposely subject himself to the sheer amount of
> prejudice and insult an atheist does, if it were really simply a
> matter of choice?
>
> But it isn't one. Given my understanding of the world, my knowledge of
> religion and philosophy, and my observations, I have ->no choice<- but
> to be an atheist. Any other conclusion would be lying to myself.
>
> You may be able to "choose" your beliefs. I'm too honest with myself
> to be anything other than an atheist.
>
>
. ======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
[.snip.]
>That's fine by me.
Then perhaps this is the time for you to take your leave of
alt.atheism and to take your poetry and chest-beating elsewhere...
Trevor Mytton
<Mike Smith sm...@rah.ssl> wrote in message
news:ue58qso9nl7r50t7b...@4ax.com...
> "Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> (Note on thread title -- the word "why" adds nothing.)
>
> =So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult
> =to provide either, because it is by faith that we believe in God
> =and Jesus.
>
> And why do you suppose that is? Because it's "difficult to prove"?
> How long do you need? THREE thousand years? Four thousand?
>
Try the number of your days (the length of your life)
> =This faith comes after many years of wrestling with ones own
> =conscience.... is it or isn't it true?
>
> Most times, little children are brainwashed into it. They don't do
> a lot of critical thinking at the age of 5 or 6... luckily for the church.
>
Well not in my case, I became a Christian in my mid twenties!
> =But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
> Yes -- deal with the world as it is, or bail and live in a fantasy
> that makes you feel good and gives you easy answers.
>
That is the reason for my COMFORT.
> --snip cutesy little poem tastelessly posted to alt.atheism--
> __________________________________________
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> Mike Smith | aa #1164 | ULC Ordained Minister
> Air Traffic Controller - EAC Lunar Oil Rig
> __________________________________________
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but
> the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
> - Pr:22:15
Cynical Prophet
> So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's
> we believe in God and Jesus. This faith comes after many
> years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> isn't it true?
> But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter
> of choice.
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
Could you please do your wispering *out*side a public
forum?
Morgan
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Shep
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Don Kresch <rot13....@xeylax.pbz.getridof.com> wrote in message
>news:c458qsoku5qst0ncg...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, in alt.atheism, Trevor Mytton
>> wrote:
>>
<big snip>
>>
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I still feel the sting of pain
>> > I have my share of heartaches
>> > which is why I seek His name.
>>
>> Tacit admission that you want to have an invisible friend to
>> lean on.
>>
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I do not wish to judge.
>> > I have no authority.
>> > I only know I'm loved.
>>
>> Ditto the above.
>>
>>
>Exactly!
That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
Packman
>
> <Mike Smith sm...@rah.ssl> wrote in message
> news:ue58qso9nl7r50t7b...@4ax.com...
> > "Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > (Note on thread title -- the word "why" adds nothing.)
> >
> > =So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult
> > =to provide either, because it is by faith that we believe in God
> > =and Jesus.
> >
> > And why do you suppose that is? Because it's "difficult to prove"?
> > How long do you need? THREE thousand years? Four thousand?
> >
> Try the number of your days (the length of your life)
>
> > =This faith comes after many years of wrestling with ones own
> > =conscience.... is it or isn't it true?
> >
> > Most times, little children are brainwashed into it. They don't do
> > a lot of critical thinking at the age of 5 or 6... luckily for the church.
> >
> Well not in my case, I became a Christian in my mid twenties!
Let me guess: You were a druggie, an alcoholic, or something bad
was going on, and Jesus saved you??
> > =But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> >
> > Yes -- deal with the world as it is, or bail and live in a fantasy
> > that makes you feel good and gives you easy answers.
> That is the reason for my COMFORT.
The fantasy part?
Trevor Mytton
raven1 <Franke...@christianemail.com> wrote in message
news:nt58qsoimp01ra8bp...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
>
> Trevor, the problem non-believers have with this is that to be blunt,
> believing in something on "faith" with no supporting evidence is
> pretty silly.
Well what is faith?
My definition is "The SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCe of things
not seen".
> It may make you feel good, but there's no reason to
> think that your "faith" corresponds in any way with reality.
Oh but it does!
>You might
> just as well profess "faith" in Bigfoot, UFO abductions, the Loch Ness
> monster, leprechauns or gnomes. The "God" concept deserves no
> different or special treatment: if you wouldn't put your "faith" in
> any of the above (and I hope you wouldn't; if you would, you're among
> the ranks of the truly gullible, and I have some nice Real Estate in
> Florida to sell you), there's no reason to put it in the existence of
> some kind of "God".
>
> >This faith
> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> >isn't it true?
>
> And as you demonstrate below, you throw reason out the window and
> decide to accept it as true simply because you *want* it to be true.
> Sorry, Trevor, but that's not the pathway to truth, it's the pathway
> to self-delusion. It's an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
>
That's how satan beguiled eve.
> >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
> Exactly: the choice being are you going to use your brain or put it
> aside.
Why just use your brain?
> >
> >When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> > "That is why I chose this way."
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I don't speak of this with pride.
> > I'm confessing that I stumble
> > and need someone to be my guide.
>
> Everyone makes mistakes. Recognizing that is part of growing up.
> Learning to take responsibility for your own actions, rather than
> looking for a guide is the answer.
>
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I'm not trying to be strong.
> > I'm professing that I'm weak
> > and pray for strength to carry on.
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I'm not bragging of success.
> > I'm admitting I have failed
> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
>
> Please, spare us the breast-beating "mea culpa". No one is perfect.
> Learn to deal with it.
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> > my flaws are too visible
> > but God believes I'm worth it.
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I still feel the sting of pain
> > I have my share of heartaches
> > which is why I seek His name.
>
> You might try recognizing that it's OK not to be perfect, and to
> forgive yourself for it. You might find that when you're able to
> forgive yourself, you feel less need to create an imaginary
> father-figure to forgive you.
>
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I do not wish to judge.
> > I have no authority.
> > I only know I'm loved.
>
> Pure arrested development. Theism as the desire to remain in a
> childlike state, with an omniscient parent figure to rely on to make
> decisions, judge one's actions, and absolve them of responsibility for
> them.
>
>
It's good innnit!
Trevor Mytton
Greg Shelley <gg...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:39A420F6...@aber.ac.uk...
>
>
> Trevor Mytton wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> that's nice. When you say "I am a Christian" we say "Fuck off and tell
> it to someone who cares"
>
speak for every atheist on this ng? .....or are you being selfish.
Whatever the reason, it produced a reaction in you.
> --
> Greg #1636
YOELK
>
> So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
> comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> isn't it true?
I'd say that the regulars in alt.atheism don't just 'look for a proof or
evidence',
but they ask for a proof when they hear a claim so extra-ordinary ....
>
> But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> "That is why I chose this way."
Well, atheists chose another way.
-----
YOELK
Christopher A. Lee
Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Greg Shelley <gg...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:39A420F6...@aber.ac.uk...
>>
>> Trevor Mytton wrote:
>> >
>> that's nice. When you say "I am a Christian" we say "Fuck off and tell
>> it to someone who cares"
>>
>Well thank you for taking the trouble to tell me that YOU don't care! Do YOU
>speak for every atheist on this ng? .....or are you being selfish.
Very likely he does speak for every atheist in this
newsgroup. We've come here as a sort of informal mutual
support group totalk about our own issues with other
atheists.
What you are doing is off-topic, stupid and rude. You don't
have to be a rocket scientist to realise that what you are doing
is going to offend people who have got together to talk atheist
issues with each other.
Telling us you're Christian is as meaningful as eg somebody in
a water-skiing group saying he has cream in his coffee. It
is irrelevent.
>Whatever the reason, it produced a reaction in you.
Your in-our-face stupidity and rudeness did that.
Like far too many Christians, you think being a Christian
entitles you to rub our faces in it. You think that it exempts
you from your own rules of doing to others as you would be
done by, turning the other cheek, giving the soft answer that
turneth away wrath, shaking the dust off your feet etc. In
short, you're a viciously nasty, sociopathic hypocrite.
Greg Shelley
Trevor Mytton wrote:
>
> >
> Well thank you for taking the trouble to tell me that YOU don't care! Do YOU
> speak for every atheist on this ng? .....or are you being selfish.
>
I think I'm speaking for most atheists here, though I could be wrong.
Perhaps you could explain what is selfish about that?
--
Greg #1636
Trevor Mytton
Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:39a422ee...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:06:08 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >Don Kresch <rot13....@xeylax.pbz.getridof.com> wrote in message
> >news:c458qsoku5qst0ncg...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, in alt.atheism, Trevor Mytton
> >> wrote:
> >>
> <big snip>
> >>
> >> > I have my share of heartaches
> >> > which is why I seek His name.
> >>
> >> lean on.
> >>
> >> > I have no authority.
> >> > I only know I'm loved.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Exactly!
>
> That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
>
point.
sit...@extra.newsguy.com
>
>So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE
Most atheist posters in alt.atheism probably prefer people like you would go
witness somewhere else.
Trevor Mytton
> Trevor Mytton wrote:
> >
> > <Mike Smith sm...@rah.ssl> wrote in message
> > news:ue58qso9nl7r50t7b...@4ax.com...
> > > "Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > (Note on thread title -- the word "why" adds nothing.)
> > >
> > > =So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult
> > > =to provide either, because it is by faith that we believe in God
> > > =and Jesus.
> > >
> > > And why do you suppose that is? Because it's "difficult to prove"?
> > > How long do you need? THREE thousand years? Four thousand?
> > >
> > Try the number of your days (the length of your life)
> >
> > > =This faith comes after many years of wrestling with ones own
> > > =conscience.... is it or isn't it true?
> > >
> > > Most times, little children are brainwashed into it. They don't do
> > > a lot of critical thinking at the age of 5 or 6... luckily for the
church.
> > >
> > Well not in my case, I became a Christian in my mid twenties!
>
> Let me guess: You were a druggie, an alcoholic, or something bad
> was going on, and Jesus saved you??
>
Keep guessing!
> > > =But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> > >
> > > Yes -- deal with the world as it is, or bail and live in a fantasy
> > > that makes you feel good and gives you easy answers.
>
> > That is the reason for my COMFORT.
>
> The fantasy part?
Call it what you may!
Christopher A. Lee
Equally? Is 0.000000000000001 equal to 0.999999999999999?
Trevor Mytton
Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1bf56ec8...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com...
> "Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's
> > we believe in God and Jesus. This faith comes after many
> > years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> > isn't it true?
> > But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter
> > of choice.
> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
>
> forum?
>
Christopher A. Lee
Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
>> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
>>
>> Could you please do your wispering *out*side a public
>> forum?
>>
>If I did you wouldn't hear the truth.
All too typical Christian dishonesty and arrogance: YOU HAVE
TO DEMONSTRATE THAT IT'S ACTUALLY THE TRUTH INSTEAD OF ASSERTING
IT. You and I both know it's not "the truth" because Christians
have redefined the word "truth" so it no longer means the degree
with which something corresponds to reality, but "what Christians
believe". They then equivocate between the two. AND THEY ARE
EXTREMELY ARROGANT TO PRESUME THAT THEY'VE GOT SOMETHING WE
SHOULD BE MADE TO LISTEN TO. Hence all the demands for proof, to
get you to put up or shut up. But unfortunately the you obnoxious
in-our-face liars do neither.
Shep
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:39a422ee...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:06:08 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Don Kresch <rot13....@xeylax.pbz.getridof.com> wrote in message
>> >news:c458qsoku5qst0ncg...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, in alt.atheism, Trevor Mytton
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> <big snip>
>> >>
>> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> >> > I still feel the sting of pain
>> >> > I have my share of heartaches
>> >> > which is why I seek His name.
>> >>
>> >> Tacit admission that you want to have an invisible friend to
>> >> lean on.
>> >>
>> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> >> > I do not wish to judge.
>> >> > I have no authority.
>> >> > I only know I'm loved.
>> >>
>> >> Ditto the above.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Exactly!
>>
>> That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
>>
>Of course it doesn't, but equally it could be real. That was my original
>point.
Bzzzzzzzz. Wrong. Your god has as much of a chance of being real as
the little invisible green aliens from the invisible planet in my
pocket who created me and you have.
raven1
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>raven1 <Franke...@christianemail.com> wrote in message
>news:nt58qsoimp01ra8bp...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
>>
>> Trevor, the problem non-believers have with this is that to be blunt,
>> believing in something on "faith" with no supporting evidence is
>> pretty silly.
>
>Well what is faith?
>My definition is "The SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCe of things
>not seen".
Which despite its long history of usage by Christians, is gibberish
that essentially boils down to "wishful thinking". You're going to
have to do better than that.
>
>> It may make you feel good, but there's no reason to
>> think that your "faith" corresponds in any way with reality.
>
>Oh but it does!
Balderdash. Evidence? You seem to think that assertion=argument. It
doesn't.
>
>>You might
>> just as well profess "faith" in Bigfoot, UFO abductions, the Loch Ness
>> monster, leprechauns or gnomes. The "God" concept deserves no
>> different or special treatment: if you wouldn't put your "faith" in
>> any of the above (and I hope you wouldn't; if you would, you're among
>> the ranks of the truly gullible, and I have some nice Real Estate in
>> Florida to sell you), there's no reason to put it in the existence of
>> some kind of "God".
>>
>> >This faith
>> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>> >isn't it true?
>>
>> And as you demonstrate below, you throw reason out the window and
>> decide to accept it as true simply because you *want* it to be true.
>> Sorry, Trevor, but that's not the pathway to truth, it's the pathway
>> to self-delusion. It's an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
>>
>That's how satan beguiled eve.
Please elaborate. I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.
>
>> >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>>
>> Exactly: the choice being are you going to use your brain or put it
>> aside.
>
>Why just use your brain?
What else would you suggest we use, and why should we accept it as a
valid way of obtaining or interpreting information?
>
>> >
>> >When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
>> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
>> > "That is why I chose this way."
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I don't speak of this with pride.
>> > I'm confessing that I stumble
>> > and need someone to be my guide.
>>
>> Everyone makes mistakes. Recognizing that is part of growing up.
>> Learning to take responsibility for your own actions, rather than
>> looking for a guide is the answer.
>>
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not trying to be strong.
>> > I'm professing that I'm weak
>> > and pray for strength to carry on.
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not bragging of success.
>> > I'm admitting I have failed
>> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
>>
>> Please, spare us the breast-beating "mea culpa". No one is perfect.
>> Learn to deal with it.
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not claiming to be perfect,
>> > my flaws are too visible
>> > but God believes I'm worth it.
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I still feel the sting of pain
>> > I have my share of heartaches
>> > which is why I seek His name.
>>
>> You might try recognizing that it's OK not to be perfect, and to
>> forgive yourself for it. You might find that when you're able to
>> forgive yourself, you feel less need to create an imaginary
>> father-figure to forgive you.
>>
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I do not wish to judge.
>> > I have no authority.
>> > I only know I'm loved.
>>
>> Pure arrested development. Theism as the desire to remain in a
>> childlike state, with an omniscient parent figure to rely on to make
>> decisions, judge one's actions, and absolve them of responsibility for
>> them.
>>
>>
>It's good innnit!
I guess, if you want to live in a state of perpetual pre-adolescence.
Trevor Mytton
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
faith
> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> >isn't it true?
> >
> >
> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> > "That is why I chose this way."
> >
> > I don't speak of this with pride.
> > I'm confessing that I stumble
> > and need someone to be my guide.
> >
> > I'm not trying to be strong.
> > I'm professing that I'm weak
> > and pray for strength to carry on.
> >
> > I'm not bragging of success.
> > I'm admitting I have failed
> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
> >
> > I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> > my flaws are too visible
> > but God believes I'm worth it.
> >
> > I still feel the sting of pain
> > I have my share of heartaches
> > which is why I seek His name.
> >
> > I do not wish to judge.
> > I have no authority.
> > I only know I'm loved.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Trevor, you may have your reasons such as this, but it doesnt mean we
> need to agree with them. It is, as you stated, your CHOICE to be a
> christian. Quit pushing it on everyone else.
True, you don't need to agree with them, but it has resulted in some diverse
reactions. I did not post it to offend, but to give some 'proof' to those
who have demanded it in some of my previous posts. It appears that I cannot
be humble now - that's evidence of gullability. Why don't atheists boycott
theist postings?
Shep
was it a door-to-door bible whore?
raven1
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1bf56ec8...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com...
>> "Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> > So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's
>> > difficult to provide either, because it is by faith that
>> > we believe in God and Jesus. This faith comes after many
>> > years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>> > isn't it true?
>> > But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter
>> > of choice.
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
>> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
>>
>> Could you please do your wispering *out*side a public
>> forum?
>>
>If I did you wouldn't hear the truth.
Trevor, what you consider "truth" we consider ignorant superstition,
and you've yet to produce anything besides argument by assertion to
back up your claims, which, incidentally, we've heard before ad
nauseam.
Do you have even one good reason why we should give credence to any of
your assertions?
<as Pascal's Wager looms on the horizon, no doubt...>
John Hattan
>So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This faith
>comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>isn't it true?
Translation: I've given up on arguing, and I've got too much ego to
shake the dust off my sandals and leave, so I'll now just be posting
little proselytize-o-grams that I found elsewhere on the web.
<snip proselyte-o-gram>
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
jo...@thecodezone.com http://www.freespeech.org/shatner
Cynical Prophet
> Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Trevor Mytton" wrote:
> > > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> > > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> > Could you please do your wispering *out*side a
> > public forum?
> >
> If I did you wouldn't hear the truth.
We're not interested in it, thank you very much. Now,
please take your Christian humility and respect, and leave
this NG for one that cares?
raven1
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:39a41563...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This
>faith
>> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>> >isn't it true?
>> >
>> >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>> >
>> >When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
>> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
>> > "That is why I chose this way."
>> "And you better chose the same way as I did or you are going to hell!"
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I don't speak of this with pride.
>> > I'm confessing that I stumble
>> > and need someone to be my guide.
>> "But i still think i am better than you"
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not trying to be strong.
>> > I'm professing that I'm weak
>> > and pray for strength to carry on.
>> "Because i cant live without a greater purpose"
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not bragging of success.
>> > I'm admitting I have failed
>> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
>> "Although i think someone paid it for me"
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not claiming to be perfect,
>> > my flaws are too visible
>> > but God believes I'm worth it.
>> "And doesnt think you are"
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I still feel the sting of pain
>> > I have my share of heartaches
>> > which is why I seek His name.
>> "Because i cant do anything for myself"
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I do not wish to judge.
>> > I have no authority.
>> > I only know I'm loved.
>> "Because god exists, and I AM RIGHT"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Trevor, you may have your reasons such as this, but it doesnt mean we
>> need to agree with them. It is, as you stated, your CHOICE to be a
>> christian. Quit pushing it on everyone else.
>
>True, you don't need to agree with them, but it has resulted in some diverse
>reactions. I did not post it to offend, but to give some 'proof' to those
>who have demanded it in some of my previous posts.
Trevor, if you think what you posted above constitutes "proof", then
you're beyond help. It boils down to "I believe because I want to; it
makes me feel good". That's the same reason New-agers believe in
crystals, or four-year olds have imaginary friends. It's worthless as
any kind of proof or evidence.
> It appears that I cannot
>be humble now - that's evidence of gullability.
No, believing in things without evidence simply because you want to
believe is evidence of gullibility.
> Why don't atheists boycott
>theist postings?
Why don't you stop preaching here where it isn't welcome, like Jesus
said?
Paul G. Wenthold
>
> Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1bf56ec8...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com...
> >
> > Could you please do your wispering *out*side a public
> > forum?
> >
> If I did you wouldn't hear the truth.
>
For someone who likes to spout on about Jee-sus,
you sure don't follow his teaching. It has been
clear that your preaching is not welcome here.
It has also been noted that in the bible Jesus
says that if you aren't welcome, to pass on your
way (ironically, you didn't believe it at first
and had to have it shown to you by the evil atheists
who you are trying to convert; what does it say about
you when the people you are bothering know the bible
better than you do?). Yet, you are still here.
How do you explain your blatent disregard of the
teachings of Jesus?
paul
Shep
>who have demanded it in some of my previous posts. It appears that I cannot
>be humble now - that's evidence of gullability. Why don't atheists boycott
>theist postings?
>
>
"Proof"??? Where was proof in that?
Thomas P.
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1bf56ec8...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com...
snip
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
>> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
>>
>> Could you please do your wispering *out*side a public
>> forum?
>>
>If I did you wouldn't hear the truth.
I can still hear the truth. You are not talking that loudly.
>
>> Morgan
>>
>>
>> * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find
>related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is
>Beautiful
>
>
Thomas P.
Thomas P.
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:39a422ee...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:06:08 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Don Kresch <rot13....@xeylax.pbz.getridof.com> wrote in message
>> >news:c458qsoku5qst0ncg...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, in alt.atheism, Trevor Mytton
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> <big snip>
>> >>
>> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> >> > I still feel the sting of pain
>> >> > I have my share of heartaches
>> >> > which is why I seek His name.
>> >>
>> >> Tacit admission that you want to have an invisible friend to
>> >> lean on.
>> >>
>> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> >> > I do not wish to judge.
>> >> > I have no authority.
>> >> > I only know I'm loved.
>> >>
>> >> Ditto the above.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Exactly!
>>
>> That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
>>
>Of course it doesn't, but equally it could be real. That was my original
>point.
Anything could be real. That is not very significant.
Thomas P.
Packman
>
> Packman <pma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:03DB1BD6821854A0.6DC26459...@lp.airnews.net...
> > Trevor Mytton wrote:
> > >
> > > <Mike Smith sm...@rah.ssl> wrote in message
> > > news:ue58qso9nl7r50t7b...@4ax.com...
> > > > "Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > (Note on thread title -- the word "why" adds nothing.)
> > > >
> > > > =So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult
> > > > =to provide either, because it is by faith that we believe in God
> > > > =and Jesus.
> > > >
> > > > And why do you suppose that is? Because it's "difficult to prove"?
> > > > How long do you need? THREE thousand years? Four thousand?
> > > >
> > > Try the number of your days (the length of your life)
> > >
> > > > =This faith comes after many years of wrestling with ones own
> > > > =conscience.... is it or isn't it true?
> > > >
> > > > Most times, little children are brainwashed into it. They don't do
> > > > a lot of critical thinking at the age of 5 or 6... luckily for the
> church.
> > > >
> > > Well not in my case, I became a Christian in my mid twenties!
> >
> > Let me guess: You were a druggie, an alcoholic, or something bad
> > was going on, and Jesus saved you??
> >
> Neither!
> Keep guessing!
Your dog got ran over? Your wife left you? You got fired? You met
a girl who was a religious fruitcake?
> > > > =But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> > > >
> > > > Yes -- deal with the world as it is, or bail and live in a fantasy
> > > > that makes you feel good and gives you easy answers.
> >
> > > That is the reason for my COMFORT.
> >
> > The fantasy part?
> Call it what you may!
Okay.
Packman
Have you ever had a tea party with Jesus?
Nikitta Riber
Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:39a42f7...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:02:23 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> >news:39a422ee...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
<THE BIG SNIP>
> >> That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
> >>
> >Of course it doesn't, but equally it could be real. That was my original
> >point.
>
> Bzzzzzzzz. Wrong. Your god has as much of a chance of being real as
> the little invisible green aliens from the invisible planet in my
> pocket who created me and you have.
>
You discovered them??? and here I thought that I had managed to hide them so
well from you!!!
--
Med venlig hilsen, Nikitta -
atheist#1759 afda froupie#1416 non-REM-fan#4
Female Homo Sapien, with a gender-ambiguous name.
EAC - Spanker of theists
Afdas pompous cheerleader who's also overbearing
Nikitta Riber
Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:8o17vo$r0q$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snipped to the bone>
> > It may make you feel good, but there's no reason to
> > think that your "faith" corresponds in any way with reality.
>
> Oh but it does!
how??? why??? arguments please!!!
<another one snippes the dust>
> >
> > And as you demonstrate below, you throw reason out the window and
> > decide to accept it as true simply because you *want* it to be true.
> > Sorry, Trevor, but that's not the pathway to truth, it's the pathway
> > to self-delusion. It's an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
> >
> That's how satan beguiled eve.
Why do you seem to think that thinking, not to mention critical thinking is
evil???
>
> > >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> >
> > Exactly: the choice being are you going to use your brain or put it
> > aside.
>
> Why just use your brain?
Emotions are fine, but regardless we need to stick to reality.
<snipped cause I say so>
Nikitta Riber
>
> Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1bf56ec8...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com...
> > > So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's
> > > we believe in God and Jesus. This faith comes after many
> > > years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> > > isn't it true?
> > > But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter
> > > of choice.
> > > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> >
> > Could you please do your wispering *out*side a public
> > forum?
> >
> If I did you wouldn't hear the truth.
You attutude of "I have the truth and therefore you should listen" is far
from whispering and calling it so is hypocracy - listen carfully, I shall
say this only once - *you do not hold the ultimate truth* - get it??? No one
in here are interested in your "truth" (read: "self-delusion" or they
would've gone to religion, by themself - get over it.
Shep
<nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>
>Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> skrev i en
>nyhedsmeddelelse:39a42f7...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:02:23 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >news:39a422ee...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
>
><THE BIG SNIP>
>> >> That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
>> >>
>> >Of course it doesn't, but equally it could be real. That was my original
>> >point.
>>
>> Bzzzzzzzz. Wrong. Your god has as much of a chance of being real as
>> the little invisible green aliens from the invisible planet in my
>> pocket who created me and you have.
>>
>You discovered them??? and here I thought that I had managed to hide them so
>well from you!!!
BWAHAHAHA! My invisible glasses let me see invisible things!
Sterling Crowe
"Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8o11vu$m9f$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
> either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This
faith
> comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> isn't it true?
>
> But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
When I say... "I am a Christian"
And say I don't speak with pride.
I say it in alt.atheism.
Which should tell you I just lied.
When I say... "I am a Christian"
And say you should be, too.
I won't bother with evidence.
I'll just blame it all on you.
--
-Sterling Crowe
The church is near
but the roads are icy.
The tavern is far
but I will walk carefully.
-Ukranian proverb
>
Cynical Prophet
> Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> skrev:
> > Oh but it does!
> how??? why??? arguments please!!!
"It'll be 5£"
.d.a.n.f.a.k.e.
"Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult
> to provide either, because it is by faith that we believe in
> God and Jesus. This faith comes after many years of wrestling
> with ones own conscience.... is it or isn't it true?
>
> But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of
> choice.
Key question - are you choosing to believe (through blind
faith) because
1) you've determined that it is definitely true (oxymoronic
'cause blind faith and definitely true can't both be true,
so this option is out if blind faith is your gig),
2) you've determined that it is likely true (one must wonder
when you cross from blind faith to likely true, is your
belief no longer blind faith but, instead, likely true and
able to be examined in the real world we all know and share ...
if it is, then the blind faith no longer carries weight,
as you're depending on existential reality for your
determination of truth and falsehood, and as such, an
objective weighing of the evidence is the factor you're
going by to determine whether or not it's true),
3) you've determined that it's so attractive to believe
that it's true, what with promises of eternal life and
all, that it doesn't matter if it's true or not (flawed
logic in that anyone can promise you believe ________
and live forever or else, but all the promises in the
world don't make it true or sound or estimable or right,
they're just claims and claims without substantiation,
especially claims made by pre-scientific humans without
a clue about our natural origins in a natural world, are
worthless, an offense against reasoning and logic and
open-minded search for truth and meaning in a natural
world of wonder),
4) you've been scared into believing by threats, so scared
that you've determined that it doesn't matter if it's true
or not (flawed logic in that anyone who is devious and
manipulative and morally clueless can threaten you with
believe ________ or you'll burn in eternal torment forever,
but claiming that doesn't make it so and many feel that
threatening people in such a manner is immoral and has
led humankind on the path to despair/destruction/death in
times past and therefore, that approach is best left in
the cesspool of human failures which must never be
repeated and which certainly should be discarded as
abhorent nonsensical absurdity and evil in the modern
age),
5) you've been influenced by sexual/social/cultural/financial
factors entailing seduction to conform/go along/adopt/withhold
intelligent doubt/subdue "what if" scenarios in an unbalanced
endeavor to "at-a-boy away" any and all doubts via cover-ups
and intellectual dishonesty ... often 5 spins out of childhood
influences projecting God/Jesus as one with goodness and
parental acceptance (even so, it can take place in those
infrequently exposed to religion at a young age) ... many
children are brainwashed (or, if you prefer, heavily
influenced) into a religion at a young age and are never
able to objectively assess it and free themselves from it,
in large part due to the factors listed in 5,
or
6) you just want it to be true and will believe it's true
even if it's not true (flawed logic 'cause desire cannot
lead to truth, it can only lead to feeding the fever of
desire, said desire based on a combination of factors
detailed above and once you cross the line from interest
in truth to interest in satisfaction of desire, well,
you truly are lost and your only way to salvation,
truth, is to relinquish your lust/desire, open your
mind to logic and reason, and question the nature of
the blind faith journey ... let me know if I can help
you with that 'cause I've been there [blind faith] and
I think I know the ways out).
Oh well, I could go on, but 1 through 6 is a tidy little
start to freeing you from the worship/fear of imaginary
beings.
Thanks for the poem - I'll try to write a counter to your
points some time when I'm in a poetic mood - please let
me know if I can help you.
Peace. I love you.
______________________________________________
Dan Fake, FREELOVER #1, who cares deeply about truth,
freedom, and maxing out this one and only experience we
all know and share on this earth, at this time, in this life.
FREELOVER? Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive
Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality
(also, pro-love, free from state and church authorities)
______________________________________________
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> "That is why I chose this way."
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I don't speak of this with pride.
> I'm confessing that I stumble
> and need someone to be my guide.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not trying to be strong.
> I'm professing that I'm weak
> and pray for strength to carry on.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not bragging of success.
> I'm admitting I have failed
> and cannot ever pay the debt.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> my flaws are too visible
> but God believes I'm worth it.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I still feel the sting of pain
> I have my share of heartaches
> which is why I seek His name.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I do not wish to judge.
> I have no authority.
> I only know I'm loved.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mike Dahlke
<8o11vu$m9f$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>:
>
>But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
>When I say..."I am a Christian"
...and I choose to laugh, close the door in your face and get back about my
business.
Now go yak about your shortcomings as a human being to your fellow
sufferers in christ.
Damned if you xters don't sound like the Martians in "Mars Attacks"
Wak! Wak!
Wak! Wak! Wak!
Wak!
--
md
aa #1600
This so-called new religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and
chants designed to take away the money of fools. Now, let's say the Lord's
Prayer forty times, but first let's pass the collection plate.
- Rev. Lovejoy
*Nemo*
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
>
> believing in something on "faith" with no supporting evidence is
> think that your "faith" corresponds in any way with reality.
All gods are simple make-believe. I only wish my atheist parents had helped
me realize that at the time I became a Christian. Would have saved me
decades of pain.
>
> >This faith
> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> >isn't it true?
>
> And as you demonstrate below, you throw reason out the window and
> decide to accept it as true simply because you *want* it to be true.
> Sorry, Trevor, but that's not the pathway to truth, it's the pathway
> to self-delusion. It's an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
This is the biggest stumbling-block for believers. They refuse to admit that
they're believing with no real resons - other than the fact that they *want*
all of it to be true.
> >When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> > "That is why I chose this way."
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I don't speak of this with pride.
> > I'm confessing that I stumble
> > and need someone to be my guide.
>
> Everyone makes mistakes. Recognizing that is part of growing up.
> Learning to take responsibility for your own actions, rather than
> looking for a guide is the answer.
I sometimes wonder at the attitude of believers - wanting to be led through
life, thinking that life is better that way. I look at my mistakes and
realize that life doesn't end when something bad happens. There will always
be pieces to pick up and carry on with - until my death. At that point, it
won't be a problem any more.
<snip more whining about perfection>
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I still feel the sting of pain
> > I have my share of heartaches
> > which is why I seek His name.
>
> You might try recognizing that it's OK not to be perfect, and to
> forgive yourself for it. You might find that when you're able to
> forgive yourself, you feel less need to create an imaginary
> father-figure to forgive you.
If any of these people actually *felt* forgiven, they'd never bother with
churches ever again.
>
> >
> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> > I do not wish to judge.
> > I have no authority.
> > I only know I'm loved.
>
> Pure arrested development.
At a quite annoying stage, too...
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
Antichrist #1 (1 Jn 2:18,19)
http://home.att.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
tanstaafl
**************************************************
Nothing works like prayer!
Corollary:
Prayer works like nothing! Exactly like it!
**************************************************
Chris Brown
Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>True, you don't need to agree with them, but it has resulted in some diverse
>reactions. I did not post it to offend,
What other effect did you imagine that preaching your religion in an
*atheist* discussion group would have?
The mind truly boggles.
--
/* _ */main(int k,char**n){char*i=k&1?"+L*;99,RU[,RUo+BeKAA+BECACJ+CAACA"
/* / ` */"CD+LBCACJ*":1[n],j,l=!k,m;do for(m=*i-48,j=l?m/k:m%k;m>>7?k=1<<m+
/* | */8,!l&&puts(&l)**&l:j--;printf(" \0_/"+l));while((l^=3)||l[++i]);}
/* \_,hris Brown -- All opinions expressed are probably wrong. */
Don Kresch
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> let us all know that:
>
>Don Kresch <rot13....@xeylax.pbz.getridof.com> wrote in message
>news:c458qsoku5qst0ncg...@4ax.com...
>> wrote:
>>
>> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
>>
>> believe that there is a god other than your wish that there is one.
>>
>> > This faith
>> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>> >isn't it true?
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
>> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
>> > "That is why I chose this way."
>>
>> your own life.
>>
>> >
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I don't speak of this with pride.
>> > I'm confessing that I stumble
>> > and need someone to be my guide.
>>
>>
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm professing that I'm weak
>> > and pray for strength to carry on.
>>
>> shit.
>>
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I'm admitting I have failed
>> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
>>
>>
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > my flaws are too visible
>> > but God believes I'm worth it.
>>
>>
>> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
>> > I still feel the sting of pain
>> > I have my share of heartaches
>> > which is why I seek His name.
>>
>> lean on.
>>
>> > I do not wish to judge.
>> > I have no authority.
>> > I only know I'm loved.
>>
>>
>>
>Exactly!
I had to leave that all in. I think I will be putting it as a
TQOTM. Trevor has admitted a few things here with his "exactly"
1. He has no basis for his belief in god other than it is his
wish.
2. He does not want to take responsibility for his own actions.
3. He has low self-esteem.
4. He has not rid himself of having an invisible friend.
Don
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, EAC Decryption squad
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
Virgil
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> "That is why I chose this way."
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I don't speak of this with pride.
> I'm confessing that I stumble
> and need someone to be my guide.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not trying to be strong.
> I'm professing that I'm weak
> and pray for strength to carry on.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not bragging of success.
> I'm admitting I have failed
> and cannot ever pay the debt.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> my flaws are too visible
> but God believes I'm worth it.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I still feel the sting of pain
> I have my share of heartaches
> which is why I seek His name.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I do not wish to judge.
> I have no authority.
> I only know I'm loved.
When I said..."I am a Christian"
I wrote a poem that shows
The psychological need
From which my God arose
-Virgil
Colin R. Day
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I do not wish to judge.
> I have no authority.
> I only know I'm loved.
Loved by whom?
Colin Day
Christopher A. Lee
Steve Knight
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> It appears that I cannot
>be humble now - that's evidence of gullability. Why don't atheists boycott
>theist postings?
Because it's the equivalent of a mangy dog (you) leaping through
our window and shitting on the living room carpet. For the dog (you)
it's a natural thing to do.
(grabs rolled up newspaper)
Whack! whack! whack!
(opens front door)
Now get the fuck out of here.
(gently picks up dog (you) and drop-kicks over hedge and into
Nemo's yard)
Steve Knight #855
Knight of BAAWA
Aaron I. Spielman
<angels_i...@monkeyt.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
=to paraphrase=
"I'm so whiney an insucure that I have must, for my very soul, tell people
who are obviously not interested, how much I love to suck the Crusty
Schlong Of The Imanginary Bearded Sky Daddy Who Is Mighty Pissed Off,
while wanking furiously because no one else will ever love me, etc, etc,
ad nauseum."
You are SO killfiled.
<<<PLONK>>>
--
Aaron I. Spielman|Atheist #1467|"Information is not knowledge, knowledge is
aa...@rockethouse.net|Cussard #.357|not wisdom, wisdom is not truth, truth is
www.rockethouse.net|BAAWA Knight!|not beauty, beauty is not love, love is not
Official Lunatic Biker of the EAC|music. Music is the best." -- Frank Zappa
Aaron I. Spielman
<nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev i en
> nyhedsmeddelelse:1099cd29...@usw-ex0109-069.remarq.com...
> > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> skrev:
> > > > Oh but it does!
> > > how??? why??? arguments please!!!
> >
> > "It'll be 5£"
> >
> Is that the price for fish and chips today???
Nikitta, it's a Monty Python reference... I won't tell you more than that
- you _really_ don't want us to get started.
Things could really get ugly around here.
Trevor Mytton
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:29:46 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >raven1 <Franke...@christianemail.com> wrote in message
> >news:nt58qsoimp01ra8bp...@4ax.com...
> >> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to
provide
> >> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
> >>
> >> believing in something on "faith" with no supporting evidence is
> >> pretty silly.
> >
> >My definition is "The SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCe of
things
> >not seen".
>
> Which despite its long history of usage by Christians, is gibberish
> that essentially boils down to "wishful thinking". You're going to
> have to do better than that.
>
To those Christians, it has been found to be true - it's not gibberish to
me.
> >
> >> It may make you feel good, but there's no reason to
> >> think that your "faith" corresponds in any way with reality.
> >
> >Oh but it does!
>
> Balderdash. Evidence? You seem to think that assertion=argument. It
> doesn't.
>
It is exactly as it says in the bible.
> >
> >>You might
> >> just as well profess "faith" in Bigfoot, UFO abductions, the Loch Ness
> >> monster, leprechauns or gnomes. The "God" concept deserves no
> >> different or special treatment: if you wouldn't put your "faith" in
> >> any of the above (and I hope you wouldn't; if you would, you're among
> >> the ranks of the truly gullible, and I have some nice Real Estate in
> >> Florida to sell you), there's no reason to put it in the existence of
> >> some kind of "God".
> >>
> >> >This faith
> >> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it
or
> >> >isn't it true?
> >>
> >> And as you demonstrate below, you throw reason out the window and
> >> decide to accept it as true simply because you *want* it to be true.
> >> Sorry, Trevor, but that's not the pathway to truth, it's the pathway
> >> to self-delusion. It's an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
> >>
> >That's how satan beguiled eve.
>
> Please elaborate. I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.
>
If I told you, you'd probably tear it apart and tell me I'm wrong.
Think about it
> >
> >> >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> >>
> >> Exactly: the choice being are you going to use your brain or put it
> >> aside.
> >
> >Why just use your brain?
>
> What else would you suggest we use, and why should we accept it as a
> valid way of obtaining or interpreting information?
>
Your spirit.
> >
> >> >
> >> >When I say..."I am a Christian"
> >> > I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> >> > I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> >> > "That is why I chose this way."
> >> >
> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> >> > I don't speak of this with pride.
> >> > I'm confessing that I stumble
> >> > and need someone to be my guide.
> >>
> >> Everyone makes mistakes. Recognizing that is part of growing up.
> >> Learning to take responsibility for your own actions, rather than
> >> looking for a guide is the answer.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> >> > I'm not trying to be strong.
> >> > I'm professing that I'm weak
> >> > and pray for strength to carry on.
> >> >
> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> >> > I'm not bragging of success.
> >> > I'm admitting I have failed
> >> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
> >>
> >> Please, spare us the breast-beating "mea culpa". No one is perfect.
> >> Learn to deal with it.
> >> >
> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> >> > I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> >> > my flaws are too visible
> >> > but God believes I'm worth it.
> >> >
> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> >> > I still feel the sting of pain
> >> > I have my share of heartaches
> >> > which is why I seek His name.
> >>
> >> You might try recognizing that it's OK not to be perfect, and to
> >> forgive yourself for it. You might find that when you're able to
> >> forgive yourself, you feel less need to create an imaginary
> >> father-figure to forgive you.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > When I say..."I am a Christian"
> >> > I do not wish to judge.
> >> > I have no authority.
> >> > I only know I'm loved.
> >>
> >> Pure arrested development. Theism as the desire to remain in a
> >> childlike state, with an omniscient parent figure to rely on to make
> >> decisions, judge one's actions, and absolve them of responsibility for
> >> them.
> >>
> >>
> >It's good innnit!
>
> I guess, if you want to live in a state of perpetual pre-adolescence.
>
Exactly!
"No-one can see the kingdom of God unless he is as a little child"
Trevor Mytton
Nope.
Trevor Mytton
> Trevor Mytton wrote:
> >
> > Packman <pma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
news:03DB1BD6821854A0.6DC26459...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > Trevor Mytton wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <Mike Smith sm...@rah.ssl> wrote in message
> > > > news:ue58qso9nl7r50t7b...@4ax.com...
> > > > > "Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > (Note on thread title -- the word "why" adds nothing.)
> > > > >
> > > > > =So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult
> > > > > =to provide either, because it is by faith that we believe in God
> > > > > =and Jesus.
> > > > >
> > > > > And why do you suppose that is? Because it's "difficult to prove"?
> > > > > How long do you need? THREE thousand years? Four thousand?
> > > > >
> > > > Try the number of your days (the length of your life)
> > > >
> > > > > =This faith comes after many years of wrestling with ones own
> > > > > =conscience.... is it or isn't it true?
> > > > >
> > > > > Most times, little children are brainwashed into it. They don't do
> > > > > a lot of critical thinking at the age of 5 or 6... luckily for the
> > church.
> > > > >
> > > > Well not in my case, I became a Christian in my mid twenties!
> > >
> > > Let me guess: You were a druggie, an alcoholic, or something bad
> > > was going on, and Jesus saved you??
> > >
> > Neither!
> > Keep guessing!
>
> a girl who was a religious fruitcake?
>
> > > > > =But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes -- deal with the world as it is, or bail and live in a fantasy
> > > > > that makes you feel good and gives you easy answers.
> > >
> > > > That is the reason for my COMFORT.
> > >
> > > The fantasy part?
>
> > Call it what you may!
>
> Okay.
Death
Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8o11vu$m9f$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This
faith
> comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> isn't it true?
>
> But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> "That is why I chose this way."
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I don't speak of this with pride.
> I'm confessing that I stumble
> and need someone to be my guide.
>
> I'm not trying to be strong.
> I'm professing that I'm weak
> and pray for strength to carry on.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not bragging of success.
> I'm admitting I have failed
> and cannot ever pay the debt.
>
> I'm not claiming to be perfect,
> my flaws are too visible
> but God believes I'm worth it.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I still feel the sting of pain
> I have my share of heartaches
> which is why I seek His name.
>
Nikitta Riber
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:02:21 +0200, "Nikitta Riber"
> <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>
> >
> >Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> skrev i en
> >nyhedsmeddelelse:39a42f7...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
> >> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> >
> ><THE BIG SNIP>
> >> >> That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
> >> >>
> >> >Of course it doesn't, but equally it could be real. That was my
original
> >> >point.
> >>
> >> Bzzzzzzzz. Wrong. Your god has as much of a chance of being real as
> >> the little invisible green aliens from the invisible planet in my
> >> pocket who created me and you have.
> >>
> >You discovered them??? and here I thought that I had managed to hide them
so
> >well from you!!!
>
> BWAHAHAHA! My invisible glasses let me see invisible things!
>
the invisible planet with the little, invissible, green aliens, who created
you and me - must be someone who wouldn't notice... Don't tell anyone that
you know of this...
Nikitta Riber
Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:1099cd29...@usw-ex0109-069.remarq.com...
> "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> skrev:
> > > Oh but it does!
> > how??? why??? arguments please!!!
>
> "It'll be 5£"
>
Is that the price for fish and chips today???
Shep
<nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
Even better! I'll convince trevor, boaty, and mrgoodslug its true!
Then they will blab about it constantly, thus showing how improbable
it is!
Nikitta Riber
isn't in the bible...
Shep
<nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
Its in... *scribble scribble* the newly found book of hank!
Denis Loubet
(SNIP)
> > You may be able to "choose" your beliefs. I'm too honest with myself
> > to be anything other than an atheist.
> >
> >
> That's fine by me.
If that's so, then why are you still in his house telling him how to arrange
his furniture?
And mine?
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Tim Baker
> > Trevor, the problem non-believers have with this is that to be blunt,
> > believing in something on "faith" with no supporting evidence is
> > pretty silly.
> Well what is faith?
> My definition is "The SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCe of
things
> not seen".
You're making your own definitions for words now, eh... well, in that case,
*MY* definition of faith is "A belief that is unfounded, unrealistic, and
unprovable." No "SUBSTANCE" or "EVIDENCE" at all...
> > It may make you feel good, but there's no reason to
> > think that your "faith" corresponds in any way with reality.
> Oh but it does!
Explain. How, exactly, does faith correspond with reality? You said that
your definition for faith is: "The substance of things *hoped* for." I can
hope for a million, bazillion dollars... but that doesn't mean I have it, in
reality.
> >You might
> > just as well profess "faith" in Bigfoot, UFO abductions, the Loch Ness
> > monster, leprechauns or gnomes. The "God" concept deserves no
> > different or special treatment: if you wouldn't put your "faith" in
> > any of the above (and I hope you wouldn't; if you would, you're among
> > the ranks of the truly gullible, and I have some nice Real Estate in
> > Florida to sell you), there's no reason to put it in the existence of
> > some kind of "God".
> > >This faith
> > >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it
or
> > >isn't it true?
> > And as you demonstrate below, you throw reason out the window and
> > decide to accept it as true simply because you *want* it to be true.
> > Sorry, Trevor, but that's not the pathway to truth, it's the pathway
> > to self-delusion. It's an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
> That's how satan beguiled eve.
This is the wrong place to counter arguements with things like this. We do
NOT believe in the story of Adam and Eve. Please do not insult us by
pretending we do.
> > >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> > Exactly: the choice being are you going to use your brain or put it
> > aside.
> Why just use your brain?
Because my brain is far more reliable, and accurate than any belief I may
have in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or whatever you call your God now days.
::: Christian Poetry Drivel Snipped for the Sake of the Group, and to Save
Valuable Server Space :::
> It's good innnit!
Nope.
Meteorite Debris
writer of our times Trevor Mytton<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk>
did eloquently compose:
> So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
> either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus. This faith
> comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
> isn't it true?
>
> But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
> When I say..."I am a Christian"
> I'm not shouting "I am saved"
> I'm whispering "I get lost!"
> "That is why I chose this way."
<snipped self loathing pity>
How you ever thought that theist belief IS your problem. Your
Christian outlook on the world being the foggy glasses you are wearing
causing you to always stumble and to need a guide.
--
alt.atheism #1417 rot-13 on email reply
Head of the EAC Decryption Squad -
Evil Atheist Conspiracy http://members.dingoblue.net.au/~meteorite/eac.htm
"A cult is a religion with no political power."
- Tom Wolfe
Fingerprint for PGP Keys at key server or go to
http://members.dingoblue.net.au/~meteorite/key1.htm
RSA - 71 BA 7C 45 B5 4A 5F EA 72 DB EC 7F 7F A8 70 99
DSS - 196D 0C35 95C9 BFD2 0677 C238 8FDE 0133 86E9 7B89
Mark Richardson
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to provide
>either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
That is absolutely true.
Spot on.
> This faith
>comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it or
>isn't it true?
If the christian God was real, it would be such an evil thing, that I
could not in all good conscience have faith in it.
Same goes for the blood thirsty gods of the Aztec.
>But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
I choose not to worship *any* gods.
Grovelling before the powerful , be they real or imaginary, is to be
the opposite of what I strive to become.
Now, what is there to talk about?
It's kind of overcast with showers in Hobart, Tasmania right now.
Mark.
------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Richardson
m.rich...@utas.edu.au
____________________________________________________________
Roy Thearle
Arturo Magidin wrote:
...
> To me, it is not a matter of choice. I don't "choose" to be an
> atheist. I happen to be one. If it were a matter of choice, believe
> me, 'atheism' in our society is a masochist's choice. Why on Earth
> would anyone purposely subject himself to the sheer amount of
> prejudice and insult an atheist does, if it were really simply a
> matter of choice?
>
> But it isn't one. Given my understanding of the world, my knowledge of
> religion and philosophy, and my observations, I have ->no choice<- but
> to be an atheist. Any other conclusion would be lying to myself.
...
I think this is sufficiently well written, succinct and true to be nominated for
AQOTM.
Roy
darwinian
Shep wrote:
<snip>
> That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
And what do you say, Harvey? Oh, you're probably right.
--
\ _.-'`-._ "I believe I have acted rightly in steadily
>< DARWIN > following and devoting my life to science."
/ `-.__.-' - Charles Darwin
L L
Nikitta Riber
Aaron I. Spielman <it's.in.t...@the.end.of.the.post> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:it's.in.the.sig-2...@tetsubo.rockethouse.net...
> > nyhedsmeddelelse:1099cd29...@usw-ex0109-069.remarq.com...
> > > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > > Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> skrev:
> > > > > Oh but it does!
> > > > how??? why??? arguments please!!!
> > >
> > > "It'll be 5£"
> > >
> > Is that the price for fish and chips today???
>
> - you _really_ don't want us to get started.
> Things could really get ugly around here.
>
shool of arguments or something - I havn't see that scetch - sorry...
Nikitta Riber
Niall McAuley
>Oh dear - I'm so embarrased for not catching it - if it's the Monty Pythong
>shool of arguments or something - I havn't see that scetch - sorry...
It's linked from the infidels logic FAQ. You can read it at:
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/sn-python.html
--
Niall #36 [real address ends in se, not es.invalid]
Colonel Dexter
"Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> > > > Let me guess: You were a druggie, an alcoholic, or
> > > > something bad was going on, and Jesus saved you??
> > > >
> > > Neither!
> > > Keep guessing!
> >
> > Your dog got ran over? Your wife left you? You got fired? You met
> > a girl who was a religious fruitcake?
> >
> Nope.
>
How about: YOU were in an accident, survived by a narrow margin, but
spent a long time in recovery, contemplating your mortality and the
possible reasons why you might have to endure such an experience;
eventually you decided that there must be some sort of ineffable plan,
and that you would get your reward for enduring unpleasantness in the
afterlife?
Any closer?
Pip, pip!
Clive Dexter
--
They say best men are moulded out of faults,
And for the most, become much more the better
For being a little bad.
Measure for Measure, V. i, Wm. Shakespeare
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Cynical Prophet
> Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev:
> > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > Trevor Mytton skrev:
> > > > Oh but it does!
> > > how??? why??? arguments please!!!
> >
> > "It'll be 5£"
> >
> Is that the price for fish and chips today???
"I'm sorry. Your half hour is over. If you want another
argument, you'll have to pay me again."
Morgan
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Cynical Prophet
> "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev:
> > > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > >
> > > "It'll be 5£"
> > >
> > Is that the price for fish and chips today???
> tell you more than that - you _really_ don't want us to
> get started.
> Things could really get ugly around here.
"No, they couldn't!"
Arky
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> >Well what is faith?
>> >My definition is "The SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCe of
>things
>> >not seen".
However there IS no evidence for the things not seen (gods, souls
heaven).
The "substance of things hoped for" is close to meaningless. If I hope
for something that is not real, it has no substance.
--
arky
Nikitta Riber
> > > > Trevor Mytton skrev:
> > > > > Oh but it does!
> > > > how??? why??? arguments please!!!
> > >
> > > "It'll be 5£"
> > >
> > Is that the price for fish and chips today???
>
> argument, you'll have to pay me again."
>
Nikitta Riber
Niall McAuley <Niall....@eei.ericsson.es.invalid> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:8o2ug6$gh6$1...@newstoo.ericsson.se...
> Nikitta Riber wrote in message <8o2tmr$nra$1...@news.inet.tele.dk>...
> >Oh dear - I'm so embarrased for not catching it - if it's the Monty
Pythong
> >shool of arguments or something - I havn't see that scetch - sorry...
>
>
> It's linked from the infidels logic FAQ. You can read it at:
>
> http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/sn-python.html
Thanks!!!
chibiabos
<mag...@math.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> In article <8o11vu$m9f$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>
> To you, perhaps. Good for you.
Nominated passage:
> To me, it is not a matter of choice. I don't "choose" to be an
> atheist. I happen to be one. If it were a matter of choice, believe
> me, 'atheism' in our society is a masochist's choice. Why on Earth
> would anyone purposely subject himself to the sheer amount of
> prejudice and insult an atheist does, if it were really simply a
> matter of choice?
Call for seconds.
>
> Arturo Magidin
> mag...@math.berkeley.edu
-chib
--
listen;there's a hell
of a good universe next door;let's go
--e.e. cummings
Trevor Mytton
chibiabos <chib...@SPAMBLOCK.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:240820000635486611%chib...@SPAMBLOCK.earthlink.net...
> In article <8o12ui$6f9$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Arturo Magidin
> <mag...@math.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> > In article <8o11vu$m9f$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> >
> > To you, perhaps. Good for you.
>
> Nominated passage:
>
> > To me, it is not a matter of choice. I don't "choose" to be an
> > atheist. I happen to be one. If it were a matter of choice, believe
> > me, 'atheism' in our society is a masochist's choice. Why on Earth
> > would anyone purposely subject himself to the sheer amount of
> > prejudice and insult an atheist does, if it were really simply a
> > matter of choice?
>
> Call for seconds.
>
Trevor Mytton
Colonel Dexter <cold...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8o30je$7q3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8o2t5q$4l9$4...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > > > > something bad was going on, and Jesus saved you??
> > > > >
> > > > Neither!
> > > > Keep guessing!
> > >
> > > Your dog got ran over? Your wife left you? You got fired? You met
> > > a girl who was a religious fruitcake?
> > >
> > Nope.
> >
>
> How about: YOU were in an accident, survived by a narrow margin, but
> spent a long time in recovery, contemplating your mortality and the
> possible reasons why you might have to endure such an experience;
> eventually you decided that there must be some sort of ineffable plan,
> and that you would get your reward for enduring unpleasantness in the
> afterlife?
>
> Any closer?
>
Trevor Mytton
Arky <ar...@aniceplace.com> wrote in message
news:39a51396....@news.freeserve.net...
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:37:34 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> >Well what is faith?
> >> >My definition is "The SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCe of
> >things
> >> >not seen".
>
>
> However there IS no evidence for the things not seen (gods, souls
> heaven).
>
> The "substance of things hoped for" is close to meaningless. If I hope
> for something that is not real, it has no substance.
>
I would agree and so would King Solomon (known for his divine wisdom)
"everything is meaningless"
> arky
>
Cynical Prophet
> Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev:
> > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev:
> > > > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "It'll be 5£"
> > > >
> > > Is that the price for fish and chips today???
> >
> > another argument, you'll have to pay me again."
> >
> I allready did that!!!
"No, you didn't!"
Andrew Lias
Roy Thearle <csi...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>Arturo Magidin wrote:
>
>...
>
>> To me, it is not a matter of choice. I don't "choose" to be an
>
>> atheist. I happen to be one. If it were a matter of choice, believe
>> me, 'atheism' in our society is a masochist's choice. Why on Earth
>> would anyone purposely subject himself to the sheer amount of
>> prejudice and insult an atheist does, if it were really simply a
>> matter of choice?
>>
>> religion and philosophy, and my observations, I have ->no choice<- but
>> to be an atheist. Any other conclusion would be lying to myself.
>
>...
>
>I think this is sufficiently well written, succinct and true to be nominated for
>AQOTM.
Well, I'm always willing to second one of Arturo's posts. [1]
Seconded.
--
Proud supporter of A^4: the August Alt.Atheism Abstinence
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely
powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is
deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
http://www.wco.com/~anrwlias
[1] Well, except the one's where he's promoting his heresys against the
IPU or the one's where he's abusing his power in the EAC, of course. :-)
Mike Dahlke
<8o390a$lkd$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>:
>>
>> Call for seconds.
>>
>I'll second it!
>
Lack of reading comprehension explains so much...
I'll give it a second.
--
md
aa #1600
This so-called new religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and
chants designed to take away the money of fools. Now, let's say the Lord's
Prayer forty times, but first let's pass the collection plate.
- Rev. Lovejoy
Fish
> Arturo Magidin wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > To me, it is not a matter of choice. I don't "choose" to be an
> > atheist. I happen to be one. If it were a matter of choice, believe
> > me, 'atheism' in our society is a masochist's choice. Why on Earth
> > would anyone purposely subject himself to the sheer amount of
> > prejudice and insult an atheist does, if it were really simply a
> > matter of choice?
> >
> > But it isn't one. Given my understanding of the world, my knowledge of
> > religion and philosophy, and my observations, I have ->no choice<- but
> > to be an atheist. Any other conclusion would be lying to myself.
>
> ...
>
> I think this is sufficiently well written, succinct and true to be nominated
> for AQOTM.
Agreed. (IOW: "Seconded!" :)
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
aa #623, ICQ# 25302291
(remove "god" to reply by email)
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Theism: the world's most popular Liars Club.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Arturo Magidin
Andrew Lias <anrw...@wco.digitus_invictus.com> wrote:
[.snip.]
>[1] Well, except the one's where he's promoting his heresys against the
>IPU or the one's where he's abusing his power in the EAC, of course. :-)
"Abusing his power in the EAC"? Except for the division of Temporal
Engineering which I managed to snag, you have systematically
accumulated all available power, and then used it as a blunt weapon
against anyone else, no matter how conciliatory they are. Given that,
I figure I might as well not be conciliatory and enjoy myself a bit.
It's rich seeing the High Lord Executioner and Sole Judge For Life And
Eternity complaining about others abusing their power in the EAC.
As for heresies, although I know there are some deep differences
between our readings of some portions of the Big Golden Book, I
thought it was understood that they are not heresies "against the
IPU." We both want to serve Her (pbuhhh) as best we can. Heresy
against your established power structure, maybe, but not against Her
of the Holy Horn!
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
mag...@math.berkeley.edu
Shep
<mkbilbo@3rdfromsollinknet> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:07:46 GMT, jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca (Shep)
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:02:21 +0200, "Nikitta Riber"
>><nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> skrev i en
>>>nyhedsmeddelelse:39a42f7...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
>>>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:02:23 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>>>> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >Shep <jg...@nospam.sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>> >news:39a422ee...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
>>>
>>><THE BIG SNIP>
>>>> >> That doesnt mean the invisible friend is real.
>>>> >>
>>>> >Of course it doesn't, but equally it could be real. That was my original
>>>> >point.
>>>>
>>>> Bzzzzzzzz. Wrong. Your god has as much of a chance of being real as
>>>> the little invisible green aliens from the invisible planet in my
>>>> pocket who created me and you have.
>>>>
>>>You discovered them??? and here I thought that I had managed to hide them so
>>>well from you!!!
>>
>>BWAHAHAHA! My invisible glasses let me see invisible things!
>
>Hey! Did you steal those things from the Mormons?
Nope, none of those around here.
>
>=======================================================
>Mark K. Bilbo - Atheist 1423
>Member American Atheists, Inc.
>=======================================================
>"And the day will come, when the mystical generation
>of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the
>womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of
>the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter."
>-- Thomas Jefferson
>=======================================================
Trevor Mytton
Mark K. Bilbo <mkbilbo@3rdfromsollinknet> wrote in message
news:akcaqs89t1lpc3uqe...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:59:27 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >chibiabos <chib...@SPAMBLOCK.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:240820000635486611%chib...@SPAMBLOCK.earthlink.net...
> >> In article <8o12ui$6f9$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Arturo Magidin
> >> <mag...@math.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Trevor Mytton <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> > >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
> >> >
> >> > To you, perhaps. Good for you.
> >>
> >> Nominated passage:
> >>
> >> > atheist. I happen to be one. If it were a matter of choice, believe
> >> > me, 'atheism' in our society is a masochist's choice. Why on Earth
> >> > would anyone purposely subject himself to the sheer amount of
> >> > prejudice and insult an atheist does, if it were really simply a
> >> > matter of choice?
> >>
> >>
> >I'll second it!
>
>
No, do you have to be? oh I'm sorry, I thought it was good anyway!
> I must have misread some posts.
>
Keeps you on your toes though don't it?
Trevor Mytton
Mike Dahlke <mda...@satx.rrBITEMESPAM.com> wrote in message
news:8F9A66E57mdahl...@206.210.192.56...
> ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk (Trevor Mytton) wrote in
> <8o390a$lkd$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>:
>
> >>
> >>
> >I'll second it!
> >
>
>
>
Trevor Mytton
<Mike Smith sm...@rah.ssl> wrote in message
news:19faqsg9q22u0elji...@4ax.com...
> "Trevor Mytton" <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> =chibiabos <chib...@SPAMBLOCK.earthlink.net> wrote
> --snip--
> => Call for seconds.
> =>
> =I'll second it!
>
> You bonehead. A "seconded" from you is like a fly landing
> on a pork chop.
>
LOL! LOL!
__________________________________________
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> Mike Smith | aa #1164 | ULC Ordained Minister
> Air Traffic Controller - EAC Lunar Oil Rig
> __________________________________________
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door,
> and my bowels were moved for him." - Song of Solomon 5:4
Nikitta Riber
> "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev:
> > > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > > Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev:
> > > > > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > > > > how??? why??? arguments please!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > "It'll be 5£"
> > > > >
> > > > Is that the price for fish and chips today???
> > >
> > > "I'm sorry. Your half hour is over. If you want
> > > another argument, you'll have to pay me again."
> > >
> > I allready did that!!!
>
> "No, you didn't!"
>
Cynical Prophet
> Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev i en
> nyhedsmeddelelse:0a0bc822...@usw-ex0109-068.remar
> q.com...
> > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com> skrev:
> > > > "Nikitta Riber" <nik...@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > > > > Cynical Prophet <cynical...@yahoo.com>
> > > > another argument, you'll have to pay me again."
> > > >
> > > I allready did that!!!
> >
> > "No, you didn't!"
> >
> Did - too, besides that wasn't an argument!!!
"It's just a contradiction!"
raven1
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>raven1 <Franke...@christianemail.com> wrote in message
>news:vib8qskc3m26lju3j...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:29:46 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >raven1 <Franke...@christianemail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:nt58qsoimp01ra8bp...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:26:46 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>> >> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >So many posters look for PROOF, or EVIDENCE and it's difficult to
>provide
>> >> >either, because it is by faith that we believe in God and Jesus.
>> >>
>> >> Trevor, the problem non-believers have with this is that to be blunt,
>> >> believing in something on "faith" with no supporting evidence is
>> >> pretty silly.
>> >
>> >Well what is faith?
>> >My definition is "The SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCe of
>things
>> >not seen".
>>
>> Which despite its long history of usage by Christians, is gibberish
>> that essentially boils down to "wishful thinking". You're going to
>> have to do better than that.
>>
>To those Christians, it has been found to be true - it's not gibberish to
>me.
Sorry, but linguistically it's nonsensical, and in practice it's
indistinguishable, as stated above, from "wishful thinking". You might
like to *think* it's true because it makes you feel good, as you've
admitted, but to an outside observer, there's no reason to give it
credence.
>
>> >
>> >> It may make you feel good, but there's no reason to
>> >> think that your "faith" corresponds in any way with reality.
>> >
>> >Oh but it does!
>>
>> Balderdash. Evidence? You seem to think that assertion=argument. It
>> doesn't.
>>
>It is exactly as it says in the bible.
Which, in the absence of supporting evidence, is simply an assertion.
Tell me, Trevor, have you ever heard the words "logic"or "critical
thinking" bandied about? You might want to look into them; it will
save your debating opponents a lot of frustration, and perhaps, enable
you to seem that you understand what you're talking about.
>
>> >
>> >>You might
>> >> just as well profess "faith" in Bigfoot, UFO abductions, the Loch Ness
>> >> monster, leprechauns or gnomes. The "God" concept deserves no
>> >> different or special treatment: if you wouldn't put your "faith" in
>> >> any of the above (and I hope you wouldn't; if you would, you're among
>> >> the ranks of the truly gullible, and I have some nice Real Estate in
>> >> Florida to sell you), there's no reason to put it in the existence of
>> >> some kind of "God".
>> >>
>> >> >This faith
>> >> >comes after many years of wrestling with ones own conscience.... is it
>or
>> >> >isn't it true?
>> >>
>> >> And as you demonstrate below, you throw reason out the window and
>> >> decide to accept it as true simply because you *want* it to be true.
>> >> Sorry, Trevor, but that's not the pathway to truth, it's the pathway
>> >> to self-delusion. It's an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
>> >>
>> >That's how satan beguiled eve.
>>
>> Please elaborate. I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.
>>
>If I told you, you'd probably tear it apart and tell me I'm wrong.
>Think about it
If you told me, and you were demonstrably wrong, yes, I'd certainly
tell you. See? You were *right* just now, and I agreed with you. Isn't
that easy? If you don't want me to tear you apart, just be right!
>> >
>> >> >But at the end of the day it comes to a simple matter of choice.
>> >>
>> >> Exactly: the choice being are you going to use your brain or put it
>> >> aside.
>> >
>> >Why just use your brain?
>>
>> What else would you suggest we use, and why should we accept it as a
>> valid way of obtaining or interpreting information?
>>
>Your spirit.
Blah, blah, blah...
First demonstrate the existence of such a thing (without quoting
scripture), then demonstrate that it's something independent of the
brain, then show that it's useful for the above.
>>
>> I guess, if you want to live in a state of perpetual pre-adolescence.
>>
>Exactly!
>"No-one can see the kingdom of God unless he is as a little child"
And little children like to create fantasy worlds to live in. Sorry,
but as much as I enjoy fantasy, I acknowledge that I live in reality.
You might try it sometime.
raven1
<ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Arky <ar...@aniceplace.com> wrote in message
>news:39a51396....@news.freeserve.net...
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:37:34 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
>> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >> >Well what is faith?
>> >> >My definition is "The SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCe of
>> >things
>> >> >not seen".
>>
>>
>> However there IS no evidence for the things not seen (gods, souls
>> heaven).
>>
>Try telling me that next time a polterguist hits you on the head!
Umm, suuuure...
Does this happen to you often?
>
>> The "substance of things hoped for" is close to meaningless. If I hope
>> for something that is not real, it has no substance.
>>
>I would agree and so would King Solomon (known for his divine wisdom)
>"everything is meaningless"
Are you familiar with the term "Non Sequitur"?
Packman
>
> Colonel Dexter <cold...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8o30je$7q3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > > > something bad was going on, and Jesus saved you??
> > > > > >
> > > > > Neither!
> > > > > Keep guessing!
> > > >
> > > > Your dog got ran over? Your wife left you? You got fired? You met
> > > > a girl who was a religious fruitcake?
> > > >
> > > Nope.
> > >
> >
> > How about: YOU were in an accident, survived by a narrow margin, but
> > spent a long time in recovery, contemplating your mortality and the
> > possible reasons why you might have to endure such an experience;
> > eventually you decided that there must be some sort of ineffable plan,
> > and that you would get your reward for enduring unpleasantness in the
> > afterlife?
> >
> > Any closer?
> >
> Just a tiny bit.
You live in a mobile home park and a tornado destroyed all but your place?
Trevor Mytton
Mark K. Bilbo <mkbilbo@3rdfromsollinknet> wrote in message
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:07:58 +0100, "Trevor Mytton"
> <ange...@myttont.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >NO. For worthless try meaningless
>
> Irrelevant. Whether find "meaning" or not has nothing at all to do
> with reality.
>
> Reality just *is. It isn't conditioned on whether you *like what it is
> or not.
>
The same thing could be said of Jesus. "Jesus IS" It says that in the bible
so therefore I can conclude by your reasoning that Jesus is = reality.
> Besides, sans evidence that "gods" exist to create meaning, one must
> logically assume humans create the "meaning" they then attribute to
> invisible beings to obtain authority for the created "meaning." But
> humans created the meaning to begin with so who needs "gods?" Just do
> what we've always done, create meaning.
>
Which is the very reason that God revealed himself to us in the first place.
He tells us to have "No other gods before Him" which tells me He's quite
aware of the human propensity to worship other gods or create them.
We were made in God's image or likeness and therefore the ability to create
is within us but no matter how we try, we cannot create an earth and heaven
in 6 days (which is not saying that God can't - he did it)
> Christianity is the laziest belief system around. Get off your butt.
> and get on with being human. Create meaning, don't just eat the pablum
> some dictatorial priest class spoons out.
>
True Christianity is alot more hard work than you would imagine. You ought
to experience it one day!