The Book of Mormon traced in Classical History writing?
Nick Youngh
This is a site from a group of Mormon and History students to find
the events in of the BoM back in history and archeology books.
1 Nephi 18:23: 600 BC
"and we arrived at the "promised land"
History books show that the arrival could have been in Israel or
Canaan.Both of which are called "The Promised land"
The forgotten Jewish nomad empire of Khazaria, known elsewhere as"the
Hemlah Jiddovskya "
of "the Russian Chronicle" is a place readily identified with Mormons
land of Zarahemlah.
At the bottom of each page of the BoM there appears a date on which
the
events of that page are agreed to have had happened.
The BoM timeline starts with King Zedekia of the Bible round. 600 BC.
Therefore we should be able to identify remarkable events, such as
the
destruction of an army of 2 million men (Ether- undated) or the sea
travel to "the promissed land" ( Nephi - 594 BC).
Interestingly, history books speak about an army of 2 million men
(Xerxes) and sea travel in 594 BC (the sailors of Farao Necho, who
sailed from the Red Sea around Africa to the Nile in Egypt).
Both of these events however were in the Middle East and not in
America, as is the
general understanding of the BoM encourages
So lets have a look, what the texts in the Book of Mormon say:
1 Nephi 18:8 And we sailed into the (Red) sea and we were driven by
the wind to the promissed land.
1 Nephi 18:23 And after we sailed for many days, we reached the
promissed land.
So Lehi and Nephi sailed from the Red Sea to Israël and to do so,
would have to sail around the bottom of Africa!
With this replacement of the landfall ( the Land of Lehi - Lycia) in
the America's
with the Middle East all pieces of this, up till now, unsolvable,
riddle, called BoM,
fall into place.
- The Mormon prophet Lehi from 600 BC becomes the Biblical Jeremia;
both prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem.
- Mormon Nephi's seatravel to America in 594bC becomes the historical
circumnavigation of Africa by Farao Necho in 594bC.
- Mormon King Mosiah possessed with the gift of tongues (100 BC)
would
be Mithridates 6 of Pont 120-83 BC who fluently spoke more than 25
languages.
- The terrible wars in the Book of Mormon are nothing else than the 3
Mithridatic wars between Rome and Pont.
- In 375 CE Mormon went into the final battle with the Lamanites and
died at the age of 110. Historically he is the Ostrogotic king
Ermanarich, who in the 4th century CE ruled in Rusland from the East
Sea to the Black Sea. He died in 375 CE in de Hunbattle,
at a ripe old age of 110 years .
In the Eddahsages Ermanarich is also called Yormon-rkkr
- The Land of Nephi was Pont near Asia and Zarahemlah was the
forgotten Jewish empire of Khazaria in Rusland from the 7th century
CE.
-- the bottleneck of water was the Bosporus, Bountifull was Ucrania
So the book of Mormon has an actual historical happening as a
counterpart, in our European history books.
There are some widely disputed claims about the origin of the BoM,
about the Golden plates, the angel Moroni. It would have been
possible
for Joseph Smith (JS) to have obtained records of history that
detailed
the Middle East history.
Some justification of this perspective is because Zoram of the BoM
looks to be the same as Zoroaster (Greek for Zarathoestra) whose
Gathas
were only found and first translated long after the death of JS.
We maintain that the Book of Mormon is a historical record,the lost
Khazar archives from the forgotten Jewish imperium Khazaria in
Rusland
of the 7th century CE.
We can only assume that the Mormon Church has in archive the original
documents that became the BoM; we request such documents to be made
available for study of lost and forgotten civilizations
(This original design of this theory is claimed
by Nico de Jongh of Mormons Historical Revival),
Nick Youngh
Don Martin
> On 30 okt, 22:14, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
and you actually believe this bullshit?
Nick Youngh
> On Oct 30, 4:20 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> and you actually believe this bullshit?-
Yes, why is it hard to believe that the events in the BoM dated 600BC
(the circumnavigation of Africa) happened in real if they were
described too by Herodotus and Flavius Josephus.
It was widespread common sense around 1830 that the history in America
and Europa evoluated (pyramids)the same way.
panam...@hotmail.com
> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
make it more presentable (if nothing else).
That being said, I must ask..Why did you think anybody in
*alt.atheism* would be interested in apologia for the Moron Church, or
for the Book of LSD?
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Michael Gray
<dejon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
The BoM is clearly a very crude fiction.
Nothing more.
__
The scientific method is accepted because it works, not because it is believed.
- Christopher A. Lee
Green Skeptic
>The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>This is a site from a group of Mormon and History students to find
>the events in of the BoM back in history and archeology books.
Yes, the Mormon hate cult has what they call "Mormon Archeology"
which is amusingly insane and backed by not one shred of actual
observation or evidence.
The insane hate cult thinks that horses were extant in North
America before they were introduced by Spain/Conquistidores and
no end of amusingly idiot notions.
---
Does belief in astrology cause insanity? http://www.skeptictank.org/edm.htm
Green Skeptic
>On Oct 30, 4:14=A0pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
>themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
>make it more presentable (if nothing else).
Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
Newsguy
says...
>
>panam...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>On Oct 30, 4:14=A0pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>>Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
>>themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
>>make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>
>Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
>mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
>drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
>the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
>something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>
Joseph Smith created mummies and sold them?
Where'd you get that idea?
panam...@hotmail.com
> panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >On Oct 30, 4:14=A0pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
> >Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
> >themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
> >make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>
> Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
> mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
> drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
> the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
> something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
The L. Ron Hubbard of his time. Ya wanna be rich, start a religion.
Not that he lived long enough to get much money out of it...<g>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
Michael Gray
wrote:
>On Oct 30, 9:37 pm, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:
>> panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >On Oct 30, 4:14=A0pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>> >Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
>> >themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
>> >make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>>
>> Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
>> mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
>> drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
>> the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
>> something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>
>
>The L. Ron Hubbard of his time. Ya wanna be rich, start a religion.
>Not that he lived long enough to get much money out of it...<g>
Didn't you know?
El Ron lives.
Just ask Xenu.
Devils Advocaat
> On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:29:38 -0700 (PDT), panamfl...@hotmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 30, 9:37 pm, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:
> >> panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> >On Oct 30, 4:14=A0pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
> >> >Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
> >> >themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
> >> >make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>
> >> Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
> >> mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
> >> drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
> >> the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
> >> something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>
> >The L. Ron Hubbard of his time. Ya wanna be rich, start a religion.
> >Not that he lived long enough to get much money out of it...<g>
>
> Didn't you know?
> El Ron lives.
> Just ask Xenu.
Who is this Xenu? The warrior cross-dresser? :P
Nick Youngh
> Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
> Yes, the Mormon hate cult has what they call "Mormon Archeology"
> which is amusingly insane and backed by not one shred of actual
> observation or evidence.
indeed, but I am talking about historywriting, not archeology, dummy.
> The insane hate cult thinks that horses were extant in North
> America before they were introduced by Spain/Conquistidores and
> no end of amusingly idiot notions.
Why you think the BoM was situated in America ? silly ?
BoM 1 Nephi 18:23:and we arrived at "the promissed land" (Israël)
The Mormon book Ether talks about an army of 2 million man.
That was the historical army of the Persian king Xerxes I, who invaded
Greece.
This army had a lot of horses, camels, elephants etc.
Nick Youngh
> On Oct 30, 4:14 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>
> Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
> themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
> make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>
> That being said, I must ask..Why did you think anybody in
> *alt.atheism* would be interested in apologia for the Moron Church, or
> for the Book of LSD?
Because alt.religion.mormon.fellowship is flooded by nonsense posted
by atheists.
Why you think my identification of BoM events as old world history is
an apology of the LDS church ?
Nick Youngh
> On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT), Nick Youngh
>
> >The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>
> The BoM is clearly a very crude fiction.
> Nothing more.
Copied historywriting is no fiction !!!
>
> __
>
> The scientific method is accepted because it works, not because it is believed.
> - Christopher A. Lee
History is no science
It can be proved only by evidence according to the "historicäl mrethod
Don Martin
> On 30 okt, 23:42, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Oct 30, 4:14 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>
> > Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
> > themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
> > make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>
> > That being said, I must ask..Why did you think anybody in
> > *alt.atheism* would be interested in apologia for the Moron Church, or
> > for the Book of LSD?
>
> Because alt.religion.mormon.fellowship is flooded by nonsense posted
> by atheists.
Having read a couple of your posts, the "nonsense" of atheists must
be a breath of fresh air over there. Why are you not posting this
nonsense to alt.religion.mormon.fellowship as well as here if you are
taking a stand for that One True Church?
> Why you think my identification of BoM events as old world history is
> an apology of the LDS church ?
I don't think that. I think what you have posted is absolute bullshit
pulled out of your arse to convince only such people so ignorant and
gullible as to STILL be searching for the "any" key on their
computers. Incidentally, Defender of the Faith, you may wish to look
up "apologia:" it does not mean "apology."
But pray continue. As I have often observed, I _like_ Mormon
missionaries. They don't smoke, they don't drink, they get plenty of
exercise, and they come in pairs--just enough to fill up the freezer.
The aftermarket on their bicycles is just icing on the cake.
Nick Youngh
> In article <g_Odnbk_n4nyVVHRnZ2dnUVZ_gWdn...@posted.sonicnet>, Green Skeptic
> says...
Very good, wise gay.
JS bought mummies and papyri and showed them in his museum.
Why he could not have bought the lost Khazar (Russian Jewish nomad
empire) archives from Abraham Firkovitch ?
Buck Mulligan
Lucky for me I'm usually the same size as my Mormon "visitors", so I've
got a whole closet full of shirts and slacks, sweaters and ties, and
bicycle helmets. In fact, it's about time for another yard-sale.
Wombat
There was another BBC programme about Scientology recently. As I
recall, when the presenter asked about Xenu there was a lot of humming
and hawing. At least one of the cult had never heard of it. Perhaps
she hadn't paid enough money yet?
Wombat
panam...@hotmail.com
>
> > On Oct 30, 4:14 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>
> > Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
> > themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
> > make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>
> > That being said, I must ask..Why did you think anybody in
> > *alt.atheism* would be interested in apologia for the Moron Church, or
> > for the Book of LSD?
>
> Because alt.religion.mormon.fellowship is flooded by nonsense posted
> by atheists.
So, then..two wrongs make a right. Gotcha. That good ol' "religious
morality" again, I suppose. Besides, if your newsgroup was intended
for Mormons to discuss their beliefs publicly, I'm sure it was quite
full of nonsense before any of the atheists arrived.
> Why you think my identification of BoM events as old world history is
> an apology of the LDS church ?
Because it appears to be an attempt to show that the BoM is actually a
legitimate history, simply because it makes reference to real-world
events. This is fallacious. After all, the "Spider Man" comics
specifically say Spider Man/Peter Parker lives in New York City. Is
this evidence that Spider Man is a real person?
Nick Youngh
> > Why are you not posting this
> > nonsense to alt.religion.mormon.fellowship as well as here if you are
> > taking a stand for that One True Church?
I did post all my decoding of the BoM overthere.It was not appreciated
as
what the Mormon Church teaches is not what is written in the BoM
Nick Youngh
> recall, when the presenter asked about Xenu there was a lot of humming
> and hawing. At least one of the cult had never heard of it. Perhaps
> she hadn't paid enough money yet?
Hé bad Womb,
Why you put your off topic shit on my thread about the decoding ofthe
BoM.
Do not these godless Scientologist have their own discussion site ?
.
Don Martin
Jesus H Fucking Christ on a Frootloop, if the True Believing Mormons
think you are spouting bullshit with this crap, what sort of reception
did you expect from the atheists?
You might wish to rethink your position on this one.
Freedom Man
Adults no longer believe in the Tooth Fairy - but they still torture and
kill each other over ancient myths and superstitions.
"We all remember how many religious wars were fought for a religion of love
and gentleness; how many bodies were burned alive with the genuinely kind
intention of saving souls from the eternal fire of hell." --- Karl Popper
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many
people suffer from a delusion, it is called Religion."
--- Robert M. Pirsig
Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot, or he can but does not want to.
If he wants to but cannot he is impotent. If he can but does not want to, he
is wicked. If he neither can nor wants to, then he is both powerless and
wicked.
--- Epicurus, Greek philosopher, circa 300 B.C.
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and
evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that
takes religion."
--- Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false,
and by rulers as useful."
--- Seneca the Younger (4? BC - 65 AD)
"Religion once ruled the world. It was called the Dark Ages." --- Ruth
Green.
"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings." ---
Victor Stenger.
"I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose." ---
Clarence Darrow
"As my ancestors are free from slavery, I am free from the slavery of
religion." --- Butterfly McQueen
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." --- Mark Twain
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in
all fiction." --- Richard Dawkins
"Cult today, religion tomorrow."
The Freedom From Religion Foundation: http://ffrf.org/
The Secular Coalition for America: www.secular.org
Secular Student Alliance: www.secularstudents.org
www.infidels.org
www.humaniststudies.org
www.atheistalliance.org
www.americanhumanist.org
Nick Youngh
>Besides, if your newsgroup was intended
> for Mormons to discuss their beliefs publicly, I'm sure it was quite
> full of nonsense before any of the atheists arrived.
I am not a Mormon, but a non religious amateur Historian.
>
> > Why you think my identification of BoM events as old world history is
> > an apology of the LDS church ?
>
> Because it appears to be an attempt to show that the BoM is actually a
> legitimate history, simply because it makes reference to real-world
> events.
The BoM does not give references to old world history, but seems to
give eye witness records to events like "the fest of Gedalya" and "the
circumnavigation of Africa" by Pharaoah Necho II.
In my humble opinion the golden plates are real historical records of
the exiled Jews in the Diaspora. Like the lost archives of the
forgotten Jewish nomad empire of Khazaria in Russia.
They were not taken to heaven, but possibly hidden in the vaults of
the LDS temple in SLC in Utah.
We should force the Mormon church to exhibit them there, so we could
study them.
http://groups.google.nl/group/the-book-of-mormon-in-the-classical-historywriting?hl=nl
Nick Youngh
> See what RELIGION does to peoples' minds?
What this has to do with the subjectof this thread ?
trolling ?
Michael Gray
<dejon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 30 okt, 23:42, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Oct 30, 4:14οΏ½pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>>
>> Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
>> themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
>> make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>>
>> That being said, I must ask..Why did you think anybody in
>> *alt.atheism* would be interested in apologia for the Moron Church, or
>> for the Book of LSD?
>
>Because alt.religion.mormon.fellowship is flooded by nonsense posted
>by atheists.
Yes. Without atheists, Mormonism makes perfect sense.
Michael Gray
<dejon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 31 okt, 01:00, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT), Nick Youngh
>>
>> <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>>
>> The BoM is clearly a very crude fiction.
>> Nothing more.
>
>Copied historywriting is no fiction !!!
Pure gibbersish.
>> The scientific method is accepted because it works, not because it is believed.
>> οΏ½- Christopher A. Lee
>
>History is no science
I agree.
>It can be proved only by evidence according to the "historic?l mrethod
WTF?
Don Martin
wrote:
>On 31 okt, 20:46, "Freedom Man" <libe...@once.net> wrote:
You are the example to which he refers. It is no surprise that you fail to get
the point.
-
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
panam...@hotmail.com
> On 31 okt, 18:40, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:>Besides, if your newsgroup was intended
> > for Mormons to discuss their beliefs publicly, I'm sure it was quite
> > full of nonsense before any of the atheists arrived.
>
> It is not my Google discussion group, I am not a member
> I am not a Mormon, but a non religious amateur Historian.
Then why do you appear to presuppose that the "golden plates" actually
exist later in your reply to my post?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/a83cb2ef9e6c8311
> > > Why you think my identification of BoM events as old world history is
> > > an apology of the LDS church ?
>
> > Because it appears to be an attempt to show that the BoM is actually a
> > legitimate history, simply because it makes reference to real-world
> > events.
>
> The BoM does not give references to old world history, but seems to
> give eye witness records to events like "the fest of Gedalya"
I try not to comment upon spelling, but in this case, I feel it's
required. Did you mean the "Fast of Gedalia"? Regardless of whether
the old Jewish stories of "Babylon's" conquest of Palestine are true,
in the English language, the words "fest" and "fast" (when the word
"fast" is used to refer to food consumption, rather than to velocity)
are almost diametrically opposed.
(aside to chibiabos...years ago, I once ridiculed a post by some
theist by describing semantics as "useless"..you attempted to remind
me that it isn't. I disagreed, and you are now allowed to laugh at me
for being so, so wrong back then! <g>)
> and "the
> circumnavigation of Africa" by Pharaoah Necho II.
An interesting hypothesis..and there *is* evidence that other ancient
peoples were capable of such voyages. The recent discovery of Chinese
influence in Eastern Africa (it would have been a voyage by Zhung He)
comes to mind:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11531398
I will not claim that Necho did *not* circumnavigate Africa..but I
will await similar kinds of evidence before I'll admit that *every*
tale of ancient mariners has a basis in truth.
> In my humble opinion the golden plates are real historical records of
> the exiled Jews in the Diaspora.
Even though there has never been *any* evidence that they actually
existed?
You've described yourself as an "amateur" historian. Accepting
unsupported claims about human history would certainly place you well
within that catagory.
> Like the lost archives of the
> forgotten Jewish nomad empire of Khazaria in Russia.
Forgotten? Hardly. There's even a wikipedia entry for them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
> They were not taken to heaven,
I'm curious. Are you asserting that "heaven" exists, or are you simply
using the word in a metaphorical context? Since you seem to be
presupposing that the stupid mormon "plates" are extant, I wonder if
you're making the same mistake by presupposing supernatural nonsense.
> but possibly hidden in the vaults of
> the LDS temple in SLC in Utah.
> We should force the Mormon church to exhibit them there, so we could
> study them.
Heh. Good luck. When "inquiring minds" asked a similar request of the
Catholic Church about the `True Cross' they have "possibly hidden in
the vaults" of the Vatican, they just tossed us that insipid "Shroud
of Turin" as a distraction. As if modern technology couldn't prove
that the stupid thing wasn't a fraud within the first 20 minutes.
And yet, the poor ignorant folks who can't rationalize that fact in
their mind *still* trot out that poor piece of cloth as if the
research never happened.
http://secweb.infidels.org/article815.html
I cannot help but think that if such plates actually exist (and I'm
still betting ten Euros that they do *not*), any study of them would
lead to a similar result.
panam...@hotmail.com
Any half serious anthropological study of human religions should show
that religions are all the same in nature, if not in influence upon
human society.
> trolling ?
No. "Trolling" would be posting topics about Moronism into alt.atheism
without a desire to discuss them honestly. If you wish to discuss this
topic with atheists, you should have placed an "OT" notice in the
title of your original post, so that folks could easily ignore it if
they're tired of people who wish to discuss such garbage as anthing
else than a social phenomenon.
Green Skeptic
>In article <g_Odnbk_n4nyVVHR...@posted.sonicnet>, Green Skeptic
He created a variety of "artifacts" that he sold to rubes, including
mummies. A number of biographies of the drunken crook cover the fake
artifact frauds, including "Trouble Enough" and "This is the Place."
http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Enough-Joseph-Smith-Mormon/dp/0879752610
Both books, amusingly enough, were written by Mormon hate cultists.
---
Does belief in astrology cause insanity? http://www.skeptictank.org/edm.htm
"We even have Apple Pie pussy!" -- Dusk 'Till Dawn.
Newsguy
says...
>
>Newsguy <Newsguy...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>In article <g_Odnbk_n4nyVVHR...@posted.sonicnet>, Green Skeptic
>>>panam...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>>>>Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
>>>>themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
>>>>make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>>>
>>>Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
>>>mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
>>>drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
>>>the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
>>>something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>>
>>Joseph Smith created mummies and sold them?
>> Where'd you get that idea?
>
>He created a variety of "artifacts" that he sold to rubes, including
>mummies. A number of biographies of the drunken crook cover the fake
>artifact frauds, including "Trouble Enough" and "This is the Place."
>
>http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Enough-Joseph-Smith-Mormon/dp/0879752610
>
You have not presented a single piece of evidence to
support your claim that Joseph Smith created mummies
and sold them -- all you've done here is to make the
additional unsupported claim that the proof is in two
books you seem to have pulled at random off Amazon.
You reject and berate religionists who counter scientific
fact with mealy mouthed bullshit. You're doing the same
thing here that they do -- where is your evidence?
In another post you claim that atheists are more honest
than theists. Demonstrate that you can actually support
your claim validly, or else admit honestly that you erred
on the point. Live up to your atheist ideal.
Nick Youngh
> On Oct 31, 3:46 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > It is not my Google discussion group, I am not a member
> > I am not a Mormon, but a non religious amateur Historian.
>
> Then why do you appear to presuppose that the "golden plates" actually
> exist later in your reply to my post?
Because the BoM seems to recount events,. which appear in the same
years in real
history.Mosiah 11 gives all the few details we know about the
forgotten Jewish nomad empire Chazaria on the Crimea in South Russia.
So it is sensible to suspect that the golden plates were the lost
Khazar archives.
The BoM talks about a Jewish land Zarahemla (Tsarenheim) possibly
Chazaria.
Moreover there is "the professor Anthon document", possibly a
facsimile of a real page of the BoM made ans sent by JS to and
ridiculed by Prof. Anton. Recently recovered it shows in the top right
corner an framed alphabet, seeming the Glagolitic alphabet made by
Saint Cyrill after his failed mission to the Khazar's.>
Nick Youngh
> I try not to comment upon spelling, but in this case, I feel it's
> required. Did you mean the "Fast of Gedalia"? Regardless of whether
> the old Jewish stories of "Babylon's" conquest of Palestine are true,
> in the English language, the words "fest" and "fast" (when the word
> "fast" is used to refer to food consumption, rather than to velocity)
> are almost diametrically opposed.
(Wikipedia)
The Fast of Gedaliah is observed to lament for the wrongs done in the
past and commemorate the righteous ruler. The event actually ranks as
a minor fast and is observed for a half of the day. The Fast of
Gedaliah falls on the second day of Rosh Hashana, that is, the third
day of the Tishrei in the Jewish year. The fast is however, deferred
to Sunday if it falls on Shabbat as the Jewish customs do not permit
any public fast on a Saturday. The fast lasts from dawn to nightfall
during which the day is spent with a number of rituals. The Jewish
community in Israel observes the day in a succession of prayers. With
humble incantations of the Mincha amidah and recitations from the
Torah and Haftorah, the day bears a distinct sobriety
So it is a rememberance day (fest) and no fasts are allowed on a
public holiday
Nick Youngh
> On Oct 31, 3:46 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > and "the
>
> An interesting hypothesis..and there *is* evidence that other ancient
> peoples were capable of such voyages. The recent discovery of Chinese
> influence in Eastern Africa (it would have been a voyage by Zhung He)
> comes to mind:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11531398
BoM 1 Nephi speaks about a Jewish sea travel around 600 bC from the
Red Sea till "the promissed land"(Israel not America)
Herodotus, the father of History Writing tells us that at the same
time, Phoenician sailors of Pharaoh Necho circumnavigated Africa from
the Red Sea till the Nile.
(If that is no evidence that the BoM is historical correct and
happened in real)
>
> You've described yourself as an "amateur" historian. Accepting
> unsupported claims about human history would certainly place you well
> within that category.
I do not accept any claim of JS or the LDS church about the BoM
>
> > Like the lost archives of the
> > forgotten Jewish nomad empire of Khazaria in Russia.
> Forgotten? Hardly. There's even a wikipedia entry for them.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
Khazaria is known among historians as "the forgotten Jewish empire in
Russia
> > They were not taken to heaven,
> I'm curious. Are you asserting that "heaven" exists, "
No and nor do angels and golden plates cannot fly
> Heh. Good luck. When "inquiring minds" asked a similar request of the
> Catholic Church about the `True Cross' they have "possibly hidden in
> the vaults" of the Vatican, they just tossed us that insipid "Shroud
> of Turin" as a distraction. As if modern technology couldn't prove
> that the stupid thing wasn't a fraud within the first 20 minutes.
>
> And yet, the poor ignorant folks who can't rationalize that fact in
> their mind *still* trot out that poor piece of cloth as if the
> research never happened.
Do not change the subject, troll
>
> I cannot help but think that if such plates actually exist (and I'm
> still betting ten Euros that they do *not*), any study of them would
> lead to a similar result.
They seem to give us more information about Khazaria and Glacolitic
Green Skeptic
>On Oct 30, 9:37=A0pm, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:
>> panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >On Oct 30, 4:14=3DA0pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>> >Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
>> >themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
>> >make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>> Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
>> mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
>> drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
>> the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
>> something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>Not that he lived long enough to get much money out of it...<g>
What's interesting is that Hubbard may well be the last of these
crooks in Westernized nations thanks to the Internet(s). As for
Smith, a number of books cover his artifacts and antiques frauds
yet some of it is on line:
http://www.mormondoctrine.net/articles/BoA_Dr_Ritner_debunks_LDS_claim.htm
Green Skeptic
>On 31 okt, 02:35, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:
>> Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>> Yes, the Mormon hate cult has what they call "Mormon Archeology"
>> which is amusingly insane and backed by not one shred of actual
>> observation or evidence.
>indeed, but I am talking about historywriting, not archeology, dummy.
>> The insane hate cult thinks that horses were extant in North
>> America before they were introduced by Spain/Conquistidores and
>> no end of amusingly idiot notions.
>Why you think the BoM was situated in America ? silly ?
It was written in the United States by someone who lived in the
United States who tried to write a story about the Jesus mythos
coming alive this time in the United States.
Because science shows that's all nonsense, Mormon cultists came up
with "Mormon Archeology" which is, well, stupid.
Green Skeptic
>Because alt.religion.mormon.fellowship is
>flooded by nonsense posted by atheists.
Strange, when you find nonsense that's some how mistaken or in
error, would you let us know, please? Thanks.
Green Skeptic
>But pray continue. As I have often observed, I _like_ Mormon
>missionaries. They don't smoke, they don't drink, they get plenty of
>exercise, and they come in pairs--just enough to fill up the freezer.
>The aftermarket on their bicycles is just icing on the cake.
And the authorities don't even bother trying to find their remains.
panam...@hotmail.com
> panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >On Oct 30, 9:37=A0pm, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:
> >> panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> >On Oct 30, 4:14=3DA0pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
> >> >Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
> >> >themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
> >> >make it more presentable (if nothing else).
> >> Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
> >> mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
> >> drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
> >> the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
> >> something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
> >The L. Ron Hubbard of his time. Ya wanna be rich, start a religion.
> >Not that he lived long enough to get much money out of it...<g>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.
>
> What's interesting is that Hubbard may well be the last of these
> crooks in Westernized nations thanks to the Internet(s). As for
> Smith, a number of books cover his artifacts and antiques frauds
> yet some of it is on line:
>
Thanks! Bookmarked. A good place to start some research..<g>
panam...@hotmail.com
> On 1 nov, 06:47, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Oct 31, 3:46 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > It is not my Google discussion group, I am not a member
> > > I am not a Mormon, but a non religious amateur Historian.
>
> > Then why do you appear to presuppose that the "golden plates" actually
> > exist later in your reply to my post?
>
> Because the BoM seems to recount events,. which appear in the same
> years in real
> history.Mosiah 11 gives all the few details we know about the
> forgotten Jewish nomad empire Chazaria on the Crimea in South Russia.
> So it is sensible to suspect that the golden plates were the lost
> Khazar archives.
That only describes why *you* think they exist, and not why you
presuppose they do when talking to others.
> The BoM talks about a Jewish land Zarahemla (Tsarenheim) possibly
> Chazaria.
> Moreover there is "the professor Anthon document", possibly a
> facsimile of a real page of the BoM made ans sent by JS to and
> ridiculed by Prof. Anton. Recently recovered it shows in the top right
> corner an framed alphabet, seeming the Glagolitic alphabet made by
> Saint Cyrill after his failed mission to the Khazar's.>
Please provide citations for the discovery of the `recently
discovered' version of the "Anthon document", and what modern
Egyptologists think of it. After all, there have been quantum advances
in humanity's understanding of ancient human languages (including
Egyptian) since 1828.
panam...@hotmail.com
So what? More ancient superstitious nonsense. I still have no idea why
you introduced this information into a discussion about just how the
founder of Mormonism copied "Classical History" while crafting his
fraud.
panam...@hotmail.com
> On 1 Nov, 06:47, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Oct 31, 3:46 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > and "the
> > > circumnavigation of Africa" by Pharaoh Necho II.
>
> > An interesting hypothesis..and there *is* evidence that other ancient
> > peoples were capable of such voyages. The recent discovery of Chinese
> > influence in Eastern Africa (it would have been a voyage by Zhung He)
> > comes to mind:
>
> >http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11531398
>
> Could you give me the related BoM verses ?
Of course not. The BoM does not reference China in any way. I was just
trying to be polite by pointing out that since *some* old stories
about sailors (i.e. Zheng He) eventually found some evidence to
support them, that it was within the realm of possibility that *other*
old stories (i.e., Necho II around Africa) might find evidence in
their favor as well.
> BoM 1 Nephi speaks about a Jewish sea travel around 600 bC from the
> Red Sea till "the promissed land"(Israel not America)
> Herodotus, the father of History Writing tells us that at the same
> time, Phoenician sailors of Pharaoh Necho circumnavigated Africa from
> the Red Sea till the Nile.
> (If that is no evidence that the BoM is historical correct and
> happened in real)
Pardon me, but I don't quite understand what you're saying here.
> > You've described yourself as an "amateur" historian. Accepting
> > unsupported claims about human history would certainly place you well
> > within that category.
>
> I do not accept any claim of JS or the LDS church about the BoM
Yet, you seem to be quoting that book with great frequency...
> > > Like the lost archives of the
> > > forgotten Jewish nomad empire of Khazaria in Russia.
> > Forgotten? Hardly. There's even a wikipedia entry for them.
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
>
> Khazaria is known among historians as "the forgotten Jewish empire in
> Russia
>
> > > They were not taken to heaven,
> > I'm curious. Are you asserting that "heaven" exists, "
>
> No and nor do angels and golden plates cannot fly
And yet, you implied earlier in your post that they'd been moved from
the Crimea to Manchester, NY.
> > Heh. Good luck. When "inquiring minds" asked a similar request of the
> > Catholic Church about the `True Cross' they have "possibly hidden in
> > the vaults" of the Vatican, they just tossed us that insipid "Shroud
> > of Turin" as a distraction. As if modern technology couldn't prove
> > that the stupid thing wasn't a fraud within the first 20 minutes.
>
> > And yet, the poor ignorant folks who can't rationalize that fact in
> > their mind *still* trot out that poor piece of cloth as if the
> > research never happened.
>
> Do not change the subject, troll
You seem to misunderstand..I compared the Catholic reaction to those
who seek to research *their* relics (the wooden fragments various
Catholic temples claim are parts of the wooden device their alleged
"Christ" was executed upon) to the Mormons' reaction to your own
desire to research Mormon relics (the "golden plates").
Please visit *this* website before you accuse me of such dishonesty as
"trolling" again.
http://www.literacy.uconn.edu/compre.htm
> > I cannot help but think that if such plates actually exist (and I'm
> > still betting ten Euros that they do *not*), any study of them would
> > lead to a similar result.
>
> They seem to give us more information about Khazaria and Glacolitic
Irrevevant, unless they actually exist. You once again presume that
they do. Why do you continue to do so?
I'd also like to suggest that in the future, you place your counter-
arguments to a single post into *one* post, instead of creating new
ones for every point I argue. "Splitting" a post makes you appear
evasive and dishonest, even if you are not intending to be.
Green Skeptic
The Mormon cult is one of the brands of Christianity is pushes their
followers to actually read their mythologies -- except that they have
had to alter their myths over the years in accord with contemporary
political climates.
Green Skeptic
>> > On 31 Oct, 06:06, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote
>> recall, when the presenter asked about Xenu there was a lot of humming
>> she hadn't paid enough money yet?
>BoM.
>Do not these godless Scientologist have their own discussion site ?
But these Scientology customers *do* have gods. They just added
L. Ron Hubbard to their pantheon.
Green Skeptic
>In my humble opinion the golden plates are real historical records of
>the exiled Jews in the Diaspora.
LOL. There were no "golden plates." The biographies and history of
the Mormon cult covered why Joseph Smith came up with that lie and
the amusing consequences of the jokes played on him. He was the
village jester, the butt of everyone's jokes.
Green Skeptic
>> > It is not my Google discussion group, I am not a member
>> > I am not a Mormon, but a non religious amateur Historian.
>> Then why do you appear to presuppose that the "golden plates" actually
>> exist later in your reply to my post?
>Because the BoM seems to recount events,. which appear in the same
>years in real history.
Gee, so does "Salem's Lot." Guess vampires are real, huh?
Green Skeptic
>In article <4uOdnX1dQ6dpSFPR...@posted.sonicnet>, Green Skeptic
>>Newsguy <Newsguy...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>>In article <g_Odnbk_n4nyVVHR...@posted.sonicnet>, Green Skeptic
>>>>panam...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>On Oct 30, 4:14pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>>>>>Logic would suggest that anyone trying to concoct a historically-
>>>>>themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
>>>>>make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>>>>Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
>>>>mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
>>>>drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
>>>>the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
>>>>something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>>>Joseph Smith created mummies and sold them?
>>> Where'd you get that idea?
>>He created a variety of "artifacts" that he sold to rubes, including
>>mummies. A number of biographies of the drunken crook cover the fake
>>artifact frauds, including "Trouble Enough" and "This is the Place."
>>http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Enough-Joseph-Smith-Mormon/dp/0879752610
>You have not presented a single piece of evidence to
>support your claim that Joseph Smith created mummies
>and sold them
Translation: The cultist declined to read biographies of his Messiah
because he's shit scared to do so. The fact that biographies and
histories have to be *read* allows cultists to pretend evidence some
how does not exist.
Dude, it doesn't sting for long. The truth really is liberating.
Don Martin
Considering that Smith plagiarized pretty much everything else he
"wrote," that part is, at least, a pretty good assumption.
Nick Youngh
> Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Yes, the Mormon hate cult has what they call "Mormon Archeology"
> >> which is amusingly insane and backed by not one shred of actual
> >> observation or evidence.
> >> The insane hate cult thinks that horses were extant in North
> >> no end of amusingly idiot notions.
> >Why you think the BoM was situated in America ? silly ?
>
> It was written in the United States by someone who lived in the
> coming alive this time in the United States.
So the beginning of the BoM is situated in the middle east, not in
America.
Later they went by ship and overland to a land to a land Zarahemla,
(Tsarenheim) clearly historic Khazaria of the Russian Jews.
Jesus was born, resurrected and went to heaven according to the BoM in
Zarahemla on the Crimea of the Russian Jews.
Donot forget that Historians prove, that all the Greek Jews,who
crowded the temple in Jesus time, actually came from the Crimea.
>
> Because science shows that's all nonsense, Mormon cultists came up
> with "Mormon Archeology" which is, well, stupid.
Scientist and historians do not burn their fingers on the BoM, so they
have not shown any nonsense.
Neither could you prove that God, Jesus and the holy spirit do not
exist.
Its only me who has traced the events in the BoM back in real history.
Giving sound historic evidence for the BoM.
And if you go to dig in Israel and south Russia, you will find a lot
of archaeological proof as well
>
> ---
> Does belief in atheism cause insanity?http://www.skeptictank.org/edm.htm
Nick Youngh
> >Because the BoM seems to recount events,. which appear in the same
> >years in real history.
>
> Gee, so does "Salem's Lot." Guess vampires are real, huh?> ---
Salem and vampires are not mentionnedin the BoM
Nick Youngh
> Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Because alt.religion.mormon.fellowship is
> >flooded by nonsense posted by atheist
> error, would you let us know, please? Thanks.
insults.
Can not we make a truce:
If atheist do not put their unproven beliefs on ARMF,
Iwill not put my historical evidence of the BoM
on alt.atheism
> ---
> Does belief in arheism cause insanity?http://www.skeptictank.org/edm.htm
Nick Youngh
http://groups.google.nl/group/the-book-of-mormon-in-the-classical-historywriting?hl=nl
Nick Youngh
>
> Please provide citations for the discovery of the `recently
> discovered' version of the "Anthon document",
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=1&id=188
and what modern
> Egyptologists think of it. After all, there have been quantum advances
> in humanity's understanding of ancient human languages (including
> Egyptian) since 1828.
What Egyptologists have to do with the Hebrew, Khazar and Glacolitic
languages ?
MarkA
> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>
> This is a site from a group of Mormon and History students to find the
> events in of the BoM back in history and archeology books.
>
Mormonism and Scientology have in common the fact that they were both
founded by con men who recognized that religions attract a great deal of
money with no accountability. I salute the entrepreneurial skills of L
Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith.
--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock
Nick Youngh
JS and the LDS church have no clue what the BoM is all about
1 Nephi recounts the last Jew (Jeremia)leaving Judea after the murder
of Gedalyah and circum navigating Africa.
So the BoM are real historical records of exiled Jews in the Diaspora.
Nick Youngh
nor did comparem them
> > > You've described yourself as an "amateur" historian. Accepting
> > > unsupported claims about human history would certainly place you well
> > > within that category.
>
> > I do not accept any claim of JS or the LDS church about the BoM
>
> Yet, you seem to be quoting that book with great frequency.
Yes if one wants to proof the BoM historical correct, one should quote
many verses and many history writers
You should have noted that I do not quote JS or the LDS church a
single time..They haveno clue what the BoM IS ALL ABOUT
>
> > > > Like the lost archives of the
> > > > forgotten Jewish nomad empire of Khazaria in Russia.
> > > Forgotten? Hardly. There's even a wikipedia entry for them.
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
>
> > Khazaria is known among historians as "the forgotten Jewish empire in
> > Russia
>
> > > > They were not taken to heaven,
> > > I'm curious. Are you asserting that "heaven" exists, "
>
> > No and nor do angels and golden plates cannot fly
>
> And yet, you implied earlier in your post that they'd been moved from
> the Crimea to Manchester, NY.
You did not read my leading article, did you, nor the following ones.
I said that JS probably bought the Khazar archives from the Russian
antiquair/collector Abraham Firkovitch
> > > Heh. Good luck. When "inquiring minds" asked a similar request of the
> > > Catholic Church about the `True Cross' they have "possibly hidden in
> > > the vaults" of the Vatican, they just tossed us that insipid "Shroud
> > > of Turin" as a distraction. As if modern technology couldn't prove
> > > that the stupid thing wasn't a fraud within the first 20 minutes.
>
> > > And yet, the poor ignorant folks who can't rationalize that fact in
> > > their mind *still* trot out that poor piece of cloth as if the
> > > research never happened.
>
> > Do not change the subject, troll
> > > I cannot help but think that if such plates actually exist (and I'm
> > > still betting ten Euros that they do *not*), any study of them would
> > > lead to a similar result.
>
> > They seem to give us more information about Khazaria and Glacolitic
>
> Irrevevant, unless they actually exist. You once again presume that
> they do. Why do you continue to do so?
Why should I change my mind, if I did not hear any documented
argument.
You clearly never heard about the circumavigation of Afrika, the fast
of Gedalya, Khazaria and the Glacolitic
> I'd also like to suggest that in the future, you place your counter-
> arguments to a single post into *one* post, instead of creating new
> ones for every point I argue. "Splitting" a post makes you appear
> evasive and dishonest, even if you are not intending to be.
The BoM has more than 10.000 verses covering 1000 years history
one should compare event by event in the same years.
Identifications however should form a consistent storyline
Newsguy
says...
First off, I'm not a Mormon. I'm an atheist.
Second, I've read pretty much every book there is
on Smith and the history of Mormonism, including
the bios you cited. That sucks for you.
Third, the truth is that you're being evasive because
you've been caught saying something erroneous, but
you refuse to admit it. You are doing *exactly* what
you accuse religious cultists of doing: lying to cover
up a falsehood.
Joseph Smith did not create mummies and sell them.
That's you making up stuff. Admit it.
Or else, try to back it up with evidence.
(You didn't even *try* -- you went straight for
the ad hominem insult. Don't you hate when cultists
do that? I do, and you're acting just like them.)
In another post, you claim that atheists are more honest
than theists. Demonstrate that you can actually support
your claim validly, or else admit honestly that you erred
on the point. Live up to atheist ideals.
Unless you do, you're offensive to atheists who do.
Nick Youngh
>
> > On 1 Nov, 06:47, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Oct 31, 3:46 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > and "the
> > > > circumnavigation of Africa" by Pharaoh Necho II.
>
> > > An interesting hypothesis..and there *is* evidence that other ancient
> > > peoples were capable of such voyages. The recent discovery of Chinese
> > > influence in Eastern Africa (it would have been a voyage by Zhung He)
> > > comes to mind:
>
> > >http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11531398
>
> > Could you give me the related BoM verses ?
>
> Of course not. The BoM does not reference China in any way.
You should read the verses about the Gandianton Robbers (Cantonese
robbers) a reference to the founder of the Han Dynasty, A bush robber.
Seemingly the Wan Tan Intermezzo (50 BC/ACE) and the secret gangs that
made an end to them.
Khazaria, present Kazakstan, was not so far from China.
Nick Youngh
> First off, I'm not a Mormon. I'm an atheist.
A Mormon atheist ?
Mohamed and Joseph Smith were no gods but prophrts
>
> Second, I've read pretty much every book there is
> on Smith and the history of Mormonism, including
> the bios you cited. That sucks for you.
you should read real history books and compare them withthe BoM, SAME
TIMELINE
Don Martin
wrote:
>On 1 nov, 06:47, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Oct 31, 3:46 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > It is not my Google discussion group, I am not a member
>> > I am not a Mormon, but a non religious amateur Historian.
>>
>> Then why do you appear to presuppose that the "golden plates" actually
>> exist later in your reply to my post?
>
>Because the BoM seems to recount events,
The BoM _seems_ to do many things. The reality of the plagiarism is about the
only thing rising above "seems".
-
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
Newsguy
Nick Youngh says...
Yeah, I know, Mormons say that.
I don't see how the BoM can possibly be
an authentic history of the Americas.
BOfL
> See what RELIGION does to peoples' minds?
>
> Adults no longer believe in the Tooth Fairy - but they still torture and
> kill each other over ancient myths and superstitions.
>
> "We all remember how many religious wars were fought for a religion of love
> and gentleness; how many bodies were burned alive with the genuinely kind
> intention of saving souls from the eternal fire of hell." --- Karl Popper
>
> "When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many
> people suffer from a delusion, it is called Religion."
> --- Robert M. Pirsig
>
> Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot, or he can but does not want to.
> If he wants to but cannot he is impotent. If he can but does not want to, he
> is wicked. If he neither can nor wants to, then he is both powerless and
> wicked.
> --- Epicurus, Greek philosopher, circa 300 B.C.
>
> "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and
> evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that
> takes religion."
> --- Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
>
> "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false,
> and by rulers as useful."
> --- Seneca the Younger (4? BC - 65 AD)
>
> "Religion once ruled the world. It was called the Dark Ages." --- Ruth
> Green.
>
> "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings." ---
> Victor Stenger.
>
> "I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose." ---
> Clarence Darrow
>
> "As my ancestors are free from slavery, I am free from the slavery of
> religion." --- Butterfly McQueen
>
> "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." --- Mark Twain
>
> "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in
> all fiction." --- Richard Dawkins
>
> "Cult today, religion tomorrow."
>
> The Freedom From Religion Foundation: http://ffrf.org/
> The Secular Coalition for America: www.secular.org
> Secular Student Alliance: www.secularstudents.orgwww.infidels.orgwww.humaniststudies.orgwww.atheistalliance.orgwww.americanhumanist.org
All very valid comments.
The 'herd mentality' creates its religions. Religions dont create the
herd mentality. This applies to the 'for or against' religious
thinking groups.
LRH understood that, showed how people could move beyond all the
mental garbage as referred to above (much of which was as a result of
religious manipulations,) via Dianetics,(now mainstream under
different labels,which became a threat to the psychiatric lobby, so
for protection of the constitution decided to declare religious
status.
He utilized the characters and story line from his Science Fiction
stories to provide a framework, and legitimately argued they were as
valid as the traditional stories, and also enjoyed the tax benefits.He
simply adapted to the constitution.
This allowed him to develop his organisation to the level that the
psychiatric lobby was under much greater threat, and organised with
the CIA to have him kicked out of the country.
The rest was easy. The herd is always ready to stampede.
The org today is a money making racket, in the same pattern as the
Vatican became.
The psychiatric lobby together with big pharma, have now become public
enemy number one, the very label they created for LRH.
Now let's see, by the responses, who are members of the herd, and
those who can think for themselves.
BOfL
Virgil
<1e5d86e8-9c44-4453...@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
BOfL <bigfl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > �www.secularstudents.orgwww.infidels.orgwww.humaniststudies.orgwww.atheistal
> > liance.orgwww.americanhumanist.org
>
> All very valid comments.
>
> The 'herd mentality' creates its religions. Religions dont create the
> herd mentality. This applies to the 'for or against' religious
> thinking groups.
>
> LRH understood that, showed how people could move beyond all the
> mental garbage as referred to above (much of which was as a result of
> religious manipulations,) via Dianetics
Dianetics and all that follows it are mere con games.
Sir Frederick Martin
The brains of all people are consistently similar,
just as they pretty much all have noses. "Herd" or
no "herd". 'Humans' need their stories.
Nick Youngh
> In article <32ddcbad-42d8-4d42-a01a-5235be77e...@r29g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
You cannot know, I discovered it.
Mormons cannot prove the BoM is situated in America
The BoM sdays it is situated in Israël, where Jews lived in 600bC
Nick Youngh
>
> The BoM _seems_ to do many things. The reality of the plagiarism is about the
> only thing rising above "seems".
The BoM events and persons are traceable in real history on the same
date.
It cannot be plagiarism because some of these events were discovered
after JS died.
Like Zoram in the BoM, who start a new religion with Isaia like
prophecies in a Isaia like style.
Zoram looks like Zoroaster, Zarathustra, whose Gathas were discovered
and translated only long after his dead.
Michael Gray
How old are you?
--
The scientific method is accepted because it works, not because it is believed.
- Christopher A. Lee
Nick Youngh
> On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 02:56:59 -0700 (PDT), Nick Youngh
>
>
>
>
>
> <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On 3 Nov, 00:49, Don Martin <drdonmar...@"
>
> >> The BoM _seems_ to do many things. The reality of the plagiarism is about the
> >> only thing rising above "seems".
>
> >The BoM events and persons are traceable in real history on the same
> >date.
> >It cannot be plagiarism because some of these events were discovered
> >after JS died.
>
> >Like Zoram in the BoM, who start a new religion with Isaia like
> >prophecies in a Isaia like style.
>
> >Zoram looks like Zoroaster, Zarathustra, whose Gathas were discovered
>
> How old are you?
65 WHY ?
bigfl...@gmail.com
Spoken as someone with no experience.Tell that to the rest of the
psychological profession involved in retrogressive therapies.
If it was a con, why would the CIA go to so much trouble? There are
plenty of con men who become 'mainstream'.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
Sir Frederick Martin wrote:
>
> The brains of all people are consistently similar,
> just as they pretty much all have noses. "Herd" or
> no "herd". 'Humans' need their stories.
If you substitute the word script, some are still at the stage where
they follow others and some have developed where they can write their
own.
You seem use the term 'story' in a derogatory sense, implying
falseness.If you follow or are caught up in others' script (for you),
it is illusory.
Writing your own script is akin to planning, and is invariably
motivated by the diminishing returns of being a follower.
BOfL
BOfL
Nick Youngh
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:49:22 -0700 (PDT), Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 31 okt, 20:46, "Freedom Man" <libe...@once.net> wrote:
> >> See what RELIGION does to peoples' minds?
>
> >trolling ?
>
> You are the example to which he refers. It is no surprise that you fail to get
> the point.
I wrote before I am no Mormon, but a non religious amateur historian
Still putting trash from the Atheist religion on my thread is trolling.
Michael Gray
You exhibit a by far lower mental age, that is why.
I am attempting to understand the disparity.
Is it medical, educational, environmental or something other?
My enquiry is in the interests of science.
Nick Youngh
> On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:14:53 -0700, Nick Youngh wrote:
> > The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
>
> > This is a site from a group of Mormon and History students to find the
> > events in of the BoM back in history and archeology books.
>
> Mormonism and Scientology have in common the fact that they were both
> founded by con men who recognized that religions attract a great deal of
> money with no accountability. I salute the entrepreneurial skills of L
> Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith.
Mormons and JS had and have no clue what the BoM is all about
What the LDS church is saying is contrary to the BoM.
Scientology is allmost unknown in Europe
and off topicto this, my, thread.
Trolling ?
Newsguy
Got nothing to say,
Mr. Atheists Are More Honest Than Theists?
Nick Youngh
> The Mormon cult is one of the brands of Christianity is pushes their
> followers to actually read their mythologies -- except that they have
> had to alter their myths over the years in accord with contemporary
> political climates.
The BoM starts with the departure of a Jeremiah look alike from
Jerusalem around 600 BC and his flight to Erytrea and circumnavigating
Africa.
Till 100bC with the Mithridatic wars and the Jewish wars.
So Mormonism is an offspring of Judaism,not of Christianity.
Why do you not read first the Book of Mormon and the classicalhistory
books of Herodotus and Flavius Josephus before you pass unbased
opinons in this, mine
thread
> ---
Green Skeptic
>Virgil wrote:
>> Dianetics and all that follows it are mere con games.
>Spoken as someone with no experience.Tell that to the rest of the
>psychological profession involved in retrogressive therapies.
>If it was a con, why would the CIA go to so much trouble?
You idiot, the CIA "went to the trouble" because they had the
Scientology crime syndicate heavily infiltrated. During Hubbard's
Operation Snow White, the crime syndicate was breaking in to
government offices and stealing documents which Scientology was
"leaking" to female Soviet spies through idiot sex traps.
The history of that crime syndicate's idiot thefts that allowed
our nation's enemies access to the very documents that the crime
syndicate was stealing is why the CIA had to step in. They
handled the leaks they same way they would when committed by
governmental officials.
---
Does belief in astrology cause insanity? http://www.skeptictank.org/edm.htm
Immortalist
...religious belief can be explained by the evolution of the human
brain...
...religious cognition represents a by-product of various evolutionary
adaptations, including folk psychology, and purposeful violations of
innate expectations about how the world is constructed (for example,
bodiless beings with thoughts and emotions) that make religious
cognitions striking and memorable...
...belief in God is natural because it depends on mental tools
possessed by all human beings. ...the way our minds are structured and
develop make belief in the existence of a supreme god with properties
such as being superknowing, superpowerful and immortal highly
attractive...
...a propensity to engage in religious behavior evolved early in human
history...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology_of_religion
such a paste! I mean pest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMReUsxTt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SD-uF8uisA
Michael Gray
<dejon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 2 nov, 16:33, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:>
>> The Mormon cult is one of the brands of Christianity is pushes their
>> followers to actually read their mythologies -- except that they have
>> had to alter their myths over the years in accord with contemporary
>> political climates.
>
>The BoM starts with the departure of a Jeremiah look alike from
>Jerusalem around 600 BC and his flight to Erytrea and circumnavigating
>Africa.
>Till 100bC with the Mithridatic wars and the Jewish wars.
>So Mormonism is an offspring of Judaism,not of Christianity.
Fictional garbage.
>Why do you not read first the Book of Mormon and the classicalhistory
>books of Herodotus and Flavius Josephus before you pass unbased
>opinons in this, mine
>thread
I have.
harry k
I suspect the beginnings of religion began with the first caveman to
realize that if he could convince his group that there was a sky spook
he could get them to give him presents, food and shelter and he
wouldn't have to work ever again. It's been working ever since. The
BoM is just one of the latest instances. How any thinking person
couild buy into that garbage is beyond me...Ah! I see the problem. A
"thinking person" wouldn't buy into any religion.
Harry K
Nick Youngh
>
> I suspect the beginnings of religion began with the first caveman
It was worse, religion is in our genes
https://groups.google.com/group/the-book-of-mormon-in-the-classical-historywriting/topics?hl=nl
panam...@hotmail.com
> On 2 nov, 05:41, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Please provide citations for the discovery of the `recently
> > discovered' version of the "Anthon document",
>
> http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=1&id=188
>
> and what modern
>
> > Egyptologists think of it. After all, there have been quantum advances
> > in humanity's understanding of ancient human languages (including
> > Egyptian) since 1828.
>
> What Egyptologists have to do with the Hebrew, Khazar and Glacolitic
> languages ?
Not much, but I thought you now wished to discuss the evidence for the
"golden plates" and the Anthon document's attempt to interpret them.
In fact, I thought that was the only reason you'd brought up the
Anthon document in the first place. Besides, if the "golden plates"
themselves turn out to be fallacious, shouldn't that mean that there's
no reason (other than the anthropologial) to study Hebrew/Khazar &
Glacolitic languages in the first place?
If you can't decide upon just *which* tangent of your claim you'd like
to discuss, I suggest you post elsewhere. alt.sci.ADHD, perhaps?
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
panam...@hotmail.com
> On 2 nov, 06:09, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 1, 7:22 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 1 Nov, 06:47, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Oct 31, 3:46 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > and "the
> > > > > circumnavigation of Africa" by Pharaoh Necho II.
>
> > > > An interesting hypothesis..and there *is* evidence that other ancient
> > > > peoples were capable of such voyages. The recent discovery of Chinese
> > > > influence in Eastern Africa (it would have been a voyage by Zhung He)
> > > > comes to mind:
>
> > > >http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11531398
>
> > > Could you give me the related BoM verses ?
>
> > trying to be polite by pointing out that since *some* old stories
> > about sailors (i.e. Zheng He) eventually found some evidence to
> > support them, that it was within the realm of possibility that *other*
> > old stories (i.e., Necho II around Africa) might find evidence in
> > their favor as well.
>
> > > BoM 1 Nephi speaks about a Jewish sea travel around 600 bC from the
> > > Red Sea till "the promissed land"(Israel not America)
> > > Herodotus, the father of History Writing tells us that at the same
> > > time, Phoenician sailors of Pharaoh Necho circumnavigated Africa from
> > > the Red Sea till the Nile.
> > > (If that is no evidence that the BoM is historical correct and
> > > happened in real)
>
> > Pardon me, but I don't quite understand what you're saying here.
>
> Of course you never read the BoM, Herodotus nor Flavius Josephus
> nor did comparem them
>
> > > > You've described yourself as an "amateur" historian. Accepting
> > > > unsupported claims about human history would certainly place you well
> > > > within that category.
>
> > > I do not accept any claim of JS or the LDS church about the BoM
>
> > Yet, you seem to be quoting that book with great frequency.
>
> Yes if one wants to proof the BoM historical correct, one should quote
> many verses and many history writers
ROFL! If one wants to prove the BoM historically correct, they should
move to Utah..and disconnect their radio, their television, and their
online access.
> You should have noted that I do not quote JS or the LDS church a
> single time..
Irrelevant, except for the fact that saying such a thing gives
evidence that you don't seem to understand that it's quite possible
that JS crafted the thing as a fabrication in the first place.
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Mind-Joseph-Smith-Psychobiography/dp/1560851252
> They haveno clue what the BoM IS ALL ABOUT
On *this*, we agree. After all, I have seen similar behavior on the
part of the various Protestant churches & the Catholic hierarchy
pretending that their own books (the various translations of the
Christian "bible") are somehow historically accurate as well. People
with a vested interest into such nonsense often lack the ability to
accept what modern scholarship & science has shown about their insipid
"sacred" tomes..
> > > > > Like the lost archives of the
> > > > > forgotten Jewish nomad empire of Khazaria in Russia.
> > > > Forgotten? Hardly. There's even a wikipedia entry for them.
> > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
>
> > > Khazaria is known among historians as "the forgotten Jewish empire in
> > > Russia
>
> > > > > They were not taken to heaven,
> > > > I'm curious. Are you asserting that "heaven" exists, "
>
> > > No and nor do angels and golden plates cannot fly
>
> > And yet, you implied earlier in your post that they'd been moved from
> > the Crimea to Manchester, NY.
>
> You did not read my leading article, did you, nor the following ones.
Quite possible. You post a lot of stuff that seems to assert that the
BoM isn't simply copied from older *real* historical accounts..and you
also have a problem expressing yourself in a single reply instead of
creating multiple replies to a single post. As I've said before..that
kind of behavior makes you appear to be willfully dishonest (instead
of accidentally so).
> I said that JS probably bought the Khazar archives from the Russian
> antiquair/collector Abraham Firkovitch
If that is true, it actually reinforces *my* contention that the BoM
is a work of fiction, created from various older documents to give it
some semblance of "truth".
> > > > Heh. Good luck. When "inquiring minds" asked a similar request of the
> > > > Catholic Church about the `True Cross' they have "possibly hidden in
> > > > the vaults" of the Vatican, they just tossed us that insipid "Shroud
> > > > of Turin" as a distraction. As if modern technology couldn't prove
> > > > that the stupid thing wasn't a fraud within the first 20 minutes.
>
> > > > And yet, the poor ignorant folks who can't rationalize that fact in
> > > > their mind *still* trot out that poor piece of cloth as if the
> > > > research never happened.
>
> > > Do not change the subject, troll
> > > > I cannot help but think that if such plates actually exist (and I'm
> > > > still betting ten Euros that they do *not*), any study of them would
> > > > lead to a similar result.
>
> > > They seem to give us more information about Khazaria and Glacolitic
>
> > Irrevevant, unless they actually exist. You once again presume that
> > they do. Why do you continue to do so?
>
> Why should I change my mind, if I did not hear any documented
> argument.
> You clearly never heard about the circumavigation of Afrika, the fast
> of Gedalya, Khazaria and the Glacolitic
And *you* seem to be ignorant of the fact that if the "golden plates"
do *not* exist, then discussing what may or may not have been on them
is mental masturbation.
> > I'd also like to suggest that in the future, you place your counter-
> > arguments to a single post into *one* post, instead of creating new
> > ones for every point I argue. "Splitting" a post makes you appear
> > evasive and dishonest, even if you are not intending to be.
>
> The BoM has more than 10.000 verses covering 1000 years history
And my favorite Japanese cartoon has as many references to the Meiji
period (and the cultural leftovers about the previous 1000 year
history from the Kamakura to Meiji periods) in Japan. Just because
something is written down does *not* mean that it is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin
> one should compare event by event in the same years.
Again, I believe doing so will simply show that the founders of the
LDS simply copied older documents to create a new one. I hope Mormons
don't feel bad about that..it's actually the same process by which the
"Torah", "Bible", and "Qu'ran" were created.
As I've previously said, the only ridiculous thing here is when people
still think such nonsense is actually accurate.
> Identifications however should form a consistent storyline
Pity that the BoM does not..otherwise your assertions might actually
be less foolish than they are.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/contra/by_name.html
panam...@hotmail.com
snip
> You should read the verses
snip
And *you* should learn how to make a single reply to a single post,
instead of these insipid multiples. You appear as if you wish to avoid
adressing points when you behave in such a way.
Michael Gray
>On Nov 2, 12:20 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2 nov, 05:41, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Please provide citations for the discovery of the `recently
>> > discovered' version of the "Anthon document",
>>
>> http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=1&id=188
>>
>> and what modern
>>
>> > Egyptologists think of it. After all, there have been quantum advances
>> > in humanity's understanding of ancient human languages (including
>> > Egyptian) since 1828.
>>
>> What Egyptologists have to do with the Hebrew, Khazar and Glacolitic
>> languages ?
>
>Not much, but I thought you now wished to discuss the evidence for the
>"golden plates" and the Anthon document's attempt to interpret them.
>In fact, I thought that was the only reason you'd brought up the
>Anthon document in the first place. Besides, if the "golden plates"
>themselves turn out to be fallacious, shouldn't that mean that there's
>no reason (other than the anthropologial) to study Hebrew/Khazar &
>Glacolitic languages in the first place?
>
>If you can't decide upon just *which* tangent of your claim you'd like
>to discuss, I suggest you post elsewhere. alt.sci.ADHD, perhaps?
Oh look. A birdie just flew past the...
I like to play with pencils.
Michael Gray
>On Nov 2, 1:11 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>> You should read the verses
>
>snip
>
>And *you* should learn how to make a single reply to a single post,
>instead of these insipid multiples. You appear as if you wish to avoid
>adressing points when you behave in such a way.
Such behaviour is symptomatic of mild mental illness.
Believing in and supporting Mormonism is symptomatic of truly profound
and disabling mental illness.
Nick Youngh
> On Nov 2, 12:20 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > What Egyptologists have to do with the Hebrew, Khazar and Glagolitic
> > languages ?
>
> Not much, but I thought you now wished to discuss the evidence for the
> "golden plates" and the Anthon document's attempt to interpret them.
> In fact, I thought that was the only reason you'd brought up the
> Anthon document in the first place. Besides, if the "golden plates"
> themselves turn out to be fallacious, shouldn't that mean that there's
> Glagolitic languages in the first place
BoM events are traceable on the same year in real history.
An explanation for that could be, that the golden plates are dealing
with real historical records, for instance records of the exiled Jews
in the Diaspora, such as the lost archives of the forgotten Jewish
nomad empire of the Khazar's in southern Russia.
A few years ago the only copy of a page of the BoM, made by JS for
professor Anthon reappeared (The Hoffman forgery of the Anthon
document) and showed in the right top corner the Glacolitic alphabet,
made by Saint Cyrill after his failed mission to the Khazar's.
Michael Gray
<dejon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 6 Nov, 00:32, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Nov 2, 12:20 pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 2 nov, 05:41, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote> > > Egyptian) since 1828.
>>
>> > What Egyptologists have to do with the Hebrew, Khazar and Glagolitic
>> > languages ?
>>
>> Not much, but I thought you now wished to discuss the evidence for the
>> "golden plates" and the Anthon document's attempt to interpret them.
>> In fact, I thought that was the only reason you'd brought up the
>> Anthon document in the first place. Besides, if the "golden plates"
>> themselves turn out to be fallacious, shouldn't that mean that there's
>> no reason (other than the anthropological) to study Hebrew/Khazar &
>> Glagolitic languages in the first place
>
>BoM events are traceable on the same year in real history.
>An explanation for that could be, that the golden plates are
... a very crude con-game by a very crude con-artist.
Woody Brison
> Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
> >the events in of the BoM back in history and archeology books.
>
> which is amusingly insane and backed by not one shred of actual
> observation or evidence.
>
> The insane hate cult thinks that horses were extant in North
> America before they were introduced by Spain/Conquistidores and
> no end of amusingly idiot notions.
Somehow we've got to get you to do a little reading before
you go setting yourself up as an authority, advising the
human race on issues where you're pretty ignorant, yet
which are crucial issues for people.
Maybe this is a good place to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagerman_Horse
Carbon dating seems a bit odd where the specimen has been
soaking in a tar pit for a long, long time. If you research
this out, you'll find that the *conjectured* extinction date
of the horse in America is actually a range, and the near
end of that range included the time when the Nephites said
they found horses in America.
Wood
Woody Brison
> panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >On Oct 30, 4:14=A0pm, Nick Youngh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> The Book of Mormon traced in Classical Historywriting ?
> >themed fraud would attempt to include bits of "real" history in it, to
> >make it more presentable (if nothing else).
>
> Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
> mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
> drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
> the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
> something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
WOW was that an ignorant paragraph. Joseph Smith's mummies
came from an Egyptian tomb opened in 1821. The tomb raider,
Antonio Lebolo, sold mummies from it to half the museums of
Europe. He accumulated a collection of them for himself also,
and about eleven of them were shipped to America by someone,
after Lebolo died in 1830.
The chain of possession at that point is uncertain, but
Michael Chandler took them on tour and went thru dozens of
cities and towns in the United States, exhibiting the mummies
and papyri that were in the their coffins with them. His
travels can be partly traced by newspaper articles of the
time; it was somewhat of a sensation for Americans to see
real Egyptian mummies in that decade.
Various experts looked at them and discussed them with him.
No one could read Egyptian in the early 1830's; Champollion's
work was just being published and it was only a beginning.
Several times he was told that he ought to take them to
Joseph Smith, who had translated the Book of Mormon from
plates written in a dead language evolved partly from
Egyptian.
When he got to Kirtland, Ohio where Joseph Smith had his
residence, he showed them to the prophet. In their
discussions, he discovered that Joseph's explanations of
various hieroglyphics corresponded well with what other
scholars had said about them.
Some of Joseph's friends collected money and bought the whole
exhibit from Chandler. He had sold various pieces during his
travels - he was down to 4 mummies - but he wouldn't sell any
more individual pieces since the exhibit was getting so
small. Joseph proceeded to translate one of the large rolls
of papyrus, the Book of Abraham. He published the translation
in 1842, including reproductions of 3 pictures from the
papyri.
When Joseph died, his papyri were scattered; the LDS moved
west to Salt Lake and his wife did not go; she sold the
mummies and they were distributed to several museums and the
papyri mostly disappeared to history.
In 1966, some of the papyri turned up in the archives of the
NY Met. There can be no question whatsoever that they are
genuine Egyptian papyri.
You've also got several other false statements there... I
could go thru them but it's a lot easier to simply note that
you didn't make a single true statement, or even hint at one,
in your little paragraph there.
Wood
Woody Brison
> On Oct 30, 9:37 pm, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:
> > Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
> > mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
> > drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
> > the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
> > something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>
> The L. Ron Hubbard of his time. Ya wanna be rich, start a religion.
> Not that he lived long enough to get much money out of it...<g>
Joseph Smith didn't get rich. If he wanted to get rich he
might have exhibited his gold plates for a quarter a person,
but he didn't. He translated them and most of the books were
sold at cost or given away. Still are. The plates were taken
back by the angel, but over a dozen solid witnesses saw them
and never changed their story that they had seen them, felt
them.
Some of the bitterest or stoutest critics of Mormonism hang
out on alt.religion.mormon. A few years ago I started a
discussion there on the existence of the gold plates. Not a
person there could come up with a coherent story to refute
the testimony of those witnesses. Here is a url to that
discussion:
http://tinyurl.com/ARM-plates-real
Wood
Nick Youngh
start:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagerman_Horse
>
> Carbon dating seems a bit odd where the specimen has been
> soaking in a tar pit for a long, long time. If you research
> this out, you'll find that the *conjectured* extinction date
> of the horse in America is actually a range, and the near
> end of that range included the time when the Nephites said
> they found horses in America.
>
> Wood
Welcome between the atheists, Woody.
Using my thread about historical evidence for the BoM, to defend an
American location of the BoM falls well under the Workpiece's
definition of trolling.
I am quite surprised, that Mormon scholars found a way to fit the
Mormon horse within the timeline of the Hagerman horse
Which Mormon horses are you talking about ?
Those of Alma or those of Ether ?.
Could you please give me a link to the original article of that Mormon
scholar
Free Lunch
<woody....@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Oct 30, 11:29 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Oct 30, 9:37 pm, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:
>
>> > Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
>> > mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
>> > drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
>> > the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
>> > something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>>
>> The L. Ron Hubbard of his time. Ya wanna be rich, start a religion.
>> Not that he lived long enough to get much money out of it...<g>
>
>Joseph Smith didn't get rich. If he wanted to get rich he
>might have exhibited his gold plates for a quarter a person,
>but he didn't. He translated them and most of the books were
>sold at cost or given away. Still are. The plates were taken
>back by the angel, but over a dozen solid witnesses saw them
>and never changed their story that they had seen them, felt
>them.
There were no plates. Oh, sure, Smith might have faked something to con
a few folks, but he got rid of them before any serious examination was
done.
Woody Brison
> On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 10:50:51 -0700 (PDT), Woody Brison
>
>
>
> >On Oct 30, 11:29 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> On Oct 30, 9:37 pm, GreenSkep...@Apikoros.Org (Green Skeptic) wrote:
>
> >> > Well, Joseph Smith used to create "archeological artifacts" including
> >> > mummies and sell them to ruibes, marks, and suckers when he wasn't
> >> > drunk or raping little girls. He was thge clown of the township and
> >> > the "golden plates" were a joke pulled on the drunk -- a joke which
> >> > something like 8 million hate mongers now believe.
>
> >> The L. Ron Hubbard of his time. Ya wanna be rich, start a religion.
> >> Not that he lived long enough to get much money out of it...<g>
>
> >Joseph Smith didn't get rich. If he wanted to get rich he
> >might have exhibited his gold plates for a quarter a person,
> >but he didn't. He translated them and most of the books were
> >sold at cost or given away. Still are. The plates were taken
> >back by the angel, but over a dozen solid witnesses saw them
> >and never changed their story that they had seen them, felt
> >them.
>
> There were no plates. Oh, sure, Smith might have faked something to con
> a few folks, but he got rid of them before any serious examination was
> done.
It's so strange to see something like this. I move among
rational humans so much that this kind of thing surprises
me. Look at my very next paragraph!
> >Some of the bitterest or stoutest critics of Mormonism hang
> >out on alt.religion.mormon. A few years ago I started a
> >discussion there on the existence of the gold plates. Not a
> >person there could come up with a coherent story to refute
> >the testimony of those witnesses. Here is a url to that
> >discussion:
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/ARM-plates-real
Just brush that off, don't read it, it might upset you.
There were good, solid reasons why the plates were taken
away by the angel. If we had them, they would have to be
kept in a vault, every rascal in the world would try to
steal them to destroy them and sell the gold. It might
be possible to appoint a committee, say a dozen
representative people, to go in an verify their existence,
give a description of them. That is exactly what was done
anyway, why not read those witness statements?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents
Thanks, "Green Skeptic" aka "ScienceWins" for crossposting
to ARMF so we'd stir ourselves to dialog with all these
people who seem to need it.
Wood
RetroProphet
Woody Brison says...
>
>On Oct 30, 11:29=A0pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Woody.
I'd like to revisit that a.r.m. discussion from 2007, too.
Your first post in it read, in its entirety:
=====
"The law of multiple witnesses, taught in
the Bible and all criminal law, yields the
conclusion that Joseph Smith had real gold plates.
Can anyone refute this?" (May 18 2007)
=====
My reply humorously mimicked a judge
rendering a decision in a hypothetical
court charged with the case of the missing
golden plates.
Nevertheless, and humor aside, I had a serious
point to make -- if the "law of multiple witnesses"
is so important to the evaluation of the testimony
of those who claimed to have seen the plates
(there being multiple witnesses to that)
why would we not also apply the
"law of multiple witnesses" to evaluate
the testimony of those who claimed to know
that the plates were taken back by an angel
(there being merely *one* witness to that)?
The pertinent portion of my reply read:
=====
"For it is noted that though multiple witnesses assert
that the Plates indeed exist, the court notes a fewer
number of witnesses to their removal, in fact only one
in number, that one being the Finder himself.
This court must consider the possibility that this
one witness may be purposefully withholding the Plates
from this court to avoid exposing them to scrutiny
in public, and beyond the witnesses he has gathered."
(May 19 2007)
=====
I maintain that I amply refuted the
initial premise of the thread you are
now claiming as a victory.
Free Lunch
<woody....@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Nov 6, 12:08锟絧m, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 10:50:51 -0700 (PDT), Woody Brison
>> <woody.bri...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Oct 30, 11:29锟絧m, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > 锟絟ttp://tinyurl.com/ARM-plates-real
>
>Just brush that off, don't read it, it might upset you.
I've read your claims. Yes, they must be "brushed off".
Which witnesses could read Egyptian hieroglyphs?
The fact that his followers believed what he said was of no account.
The actual 'testimony' says nothing at all. They 'appear' to be gold.
As for the procedure to ask God, well, God never answers anyone, so
that's a meaningless procedure.
>There were good, solid reasons why the plates were taken
>away by the angel. If we had them, they would have to be
>kept in a vault, every rascal in the world would try to
>steal them to destroy them and sell the gold.
So the angel was incapable of protecting them?
>It might
>be possible to appoint a committee, say a dozen
>representative people, to go in an verify their existence,
>give a description of them. That is exactly what was done
>anyway, why not read those witness statements?
It's all nonsense. Go watch "The Sting" or "The Music Man".
Newsguy
Woody Brison says...
>
>On Nov 6, 12:08=A0pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 10:50:51 -0700 (PDT), Woody Brison
>> <woody.bri...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>
>
>away by the angel. If we had them, they would have to be
>kept in a vault, every rascal in the world would try to
>steal them to destroy them and sell the gold.
Why is this even a reason?
So what if they were stolen, destroyed and sold?
What downside was prevented, exactly?
>It might
>be possible to appoint a committee, say a dozen
>representative people, to go in an verify their existence,
>give a description of them. That is exactly what was done
>anyway, why not read those witness statements?
>
Sir, you write like a duplicitous lawyer.
Your witnesses were a "representative" group?
That's "exactly what was done"?
Nonsense. They were all friends and family of
the guy who found it, all of similar backgrounds
and skills and none were educated in specialized
knowledge that would have made them expert
witnesses. They were as non-representative
a group as could have been assembled, as suspiciously
an inner circle group as possible.
You concede that a representative group
could have been selected, but then you essentially
lie in claiming that the one that was chosen was
representative -- tell me, can you not imagine
a truly representative group being chosen,
and the advantage such a group would have
brought to credibility?
Nick Youngh
> Which witnesses could read Egyptian hieroglyphs?>
Very interesting question, to what avail.
They confirmed that the golden plates existed, not what was written on
it.
However I agree, that it is important,to concentrate on what was
written on it, because that can give an indication where the plates
came from, which language was written on it and so on.
Green Skeptic
Idiot, the Christanic mythologies *are* Hebrewic as well as Mithratic
and Sumerian religions with pieces of a fairly large number of other
beliefs mixed together, and the extant variants of the Christanic
mythologies even start with Mesopotamian poetry.
Trying to pretend that the Mormon cult is some how Jewish, not
Christanic is pure idiocy.
---
Does belief in astrology cause insanity? http://www.skeptictank.org/edm.htm
"Show me on the doll where Cook Source Magazine touched you."