Experence that caused you to become an atheist?
Der Senfmeister
news:20000221211904...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb
went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
> exsist?"(you probably didn't say that in so many words, but..) I remember
for
> me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex, and
> sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which weren't
bad
> objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell
for..which
> I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic
type
> person.
I stopped going to church for awhile when I was 16. I didn't stop at the
time because I didn't believe it, I stopped because it was the most boring
thing possible (I was Mormon, btw. Church goes on for HOURS). After about
two or three months, things just made a lot more sense to me. I didn't
realize it then, but that was when I became an atheist. I just stopped
caring about the church, and all that stuff. Well, there ya go.
--
Der Senfmeister,
a.a #1732
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation,
whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a
reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual
survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts
through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
-- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955
Animeg3282
atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
exsist?"(you probably didn't say that in so many words, but..) I remember for
me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex, and
sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad
objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell for..which
I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type
person.
Hana no Kaitou
Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
Cause of the month: Pastel Yumi
http://members.aol.com/Animeg3282/index.html ,
http://members.aol.com/animeg3282/page5/index.htm<--Please visit both my main
home page, and Fancy Lala fanclub.
Francois Tremblay
<20000221211904...@ng-cp1.aol.com>:
<snip>
>I remember for me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started
>thinking about sex, and sexuality and things like that. I had
>some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad objectively, but I had been
>taught that God would throw me into hell for..which I thought of as
>unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type person.
Geeze, you can come out of the closet. No need to do so much hemming.
--Franc
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Dan McEwen
wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
>atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
>off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
>exsist?"(you probably didn't say that in so many words, but..) I remember for
>me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex, and
>sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad
>objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell for..which
>I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type
>person.
I actually converted away from my religion (Catholicism) first.
Honestly, I always had doubts about the accuracy of the Bible. I just
couldn't bring myself to believe its contents were literal. The led
to me divorcing myself from centralized religion.
As time wore on, the belief in a deity just seemed less and less
plausible. It didn't particularly make any sense. The idea of a
causeless entity just didn't work. Also, the acts of wanton violence
and bigotry perpetrated by the God I knew most about just turned me
away. Sure, I could have tried other gods, but there just wasn't any
appeal. It seemed more likely that if this widespread religion I had
believed in was false, because it was man-made, the chances were quite
high that the others were the same.
I couldn't ever pin down a time when I actually moved to atheism, but
I know now that I am an atheist.
redrum
ferro...@lsh.org says...
This is going to seem funny, but I started questioning my parent's
religion (Mormonism) when I got chicken pox at the beginning of June
1987 and was laid up for weeks. Freed from the constant Bible pounding
of church, I had time to consider God and the belief systems built
around him. I was an outcast at church (the other kids were really mean
to me) and I thought why does a God of love allow so much hate in his
holy building? I simply couldn't reconcile the hate of the kids at
church with a God of love. It was probably then that I decided to be an
atheist.
Panama Floyd
For me, it was reading. I know it's a "lost art" these days..
>From: anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282)
>Date: 2/21/00 9:19 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20000221211904...@ng-cp1.aol.com>
snip..but only after understanding that theistic rejection of normal human
sexual activity causes folks to post stuff like this.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta
aa# maybe soon...
EAC Reclamation Committee Chair (..Soylent Green is people!!...)
"The altar cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain, Notebook, 1898
I'm the EAC, and I vote!!
Blackguard
wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
>atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
>off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
>exsist?"(you probably didn't say that in so many words, but..) I remember for
>me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex, and
>sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad
>objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell for..which
>I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type
>person.
No. Never really gave it a thought.
---
# 3.14159 Most Holy Blackguard, High Priest of the Church of
Iconoclasts
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Tirdun
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems
to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light
bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system
doesn't
> exsist?"
There was no defined switch between "theist" and "atheist" for me. I
began doubting when my pastor started pushing me to go to seminary. I
had been an altar-boy, Deacon, and all around church-goer up until
college. When I started college and was suddenly flooded with alternate
views (religious and otherwise) I started to take a long hard look at
my own beliefs. I "backslid" and started to study the Bible.
Originally, I was searching for the "correct" religion, and when I
couldn't find it within Christianity, I became a weak theist.
After that, I spent several years searching and rejecting religious
beliefs. I became an agnostic (sort-of). I started a search for a god,
not a religion. Finally, I was so disgusted with the search that I took
a break. I had basically become an atheist in all but my own perception
of myself (I didn't like the word "atheist"). Eventually, I started to
research the arguments for and against a deity existing at all, and
realized that I had come to many of the same conclusions. It was very
hard to call myself an atheist at first, and I still hesitate to tell
others, now being familiar with the reactions I always get. I am,
however, convinced that there are no gods, but I'm always willing to be
convinced otherwise.
--
Tirdun
tirdun at yahoo dot com
KoX EAC
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Animeg3282
>Geeze, you can come out of the closet. No need to do so much hemming.
>
^_^; I'm used to being careful, sorry..
Animeg3282
>I stopped going to church for awhile when I was 16. I didn't stop at the
>time because I didn't believe it, I stopped because it was the most boring
>thing possible (I was Mormon, btw. Church goes on for HOURS).
Oh, dear! That's even worse than Baptist church(*only* 2 hours long..*sighs) I
couldn't stand church either..
Animeg3282
>For me, it was reading. I know it's a "lost art" these days..
>
Not really..but you're talking to a bookworm here..
>
>snip..but only after understanding that theistic rejection of normal human
>sexual activity causes folks to post stuff like this.
So rejection of normal sex causes people to post banal polls? :D
chibiabos
<anime...@aol.compelsia> wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
> exsist?"
The carpet-bombing of Hanoi.
-chib
--
wild(at our first)beasts uttered human words
--our second coming made stones sing like birds--
but o the starhushed silence which our third's
--e.e. cummings
Xenu Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rice Xenu
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
> exsist?"
People are _born_ atheists.
--
The Skeptic Tank: http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm aa#857
What the Scientology Crooks don't want you to know: http://www.xenu.net/
Yes, these people's bottons are all flat: http://www.scientology-kills.org/
Panama Floyd
>Date: 2/22/00 7:09 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20000222070934...@ng-cp1.aol.com>
>
>Panama Floyd said:
>
>>For me, it was reading. I know it's a "lost art" these days..
>>
>
>Not really..but you're talking to a bookworm here..
Cool! I live in the US-most folks here would rather watch TV. Ugh. <shivers>
>
>>
>>snip..but only after understanding that theistic rejection of normal human
>>sexual activity causes folks to post stuff like this.
>
>So rejection of normal sex causes people to post banal polls? :D
>
Nah, just folks who can't get (or choose not to have) sex, regardless which
flavor they choose.
When I said "normal", I meant that it's normal to want to get laid a
lot...wrong word to use, I guess! <g>
There were a few threads last week where some xian homophobe (who's probably as
straight as the day is long, and in no danger of ever being approached) wrote a
bunch of stuff about gay folks being sinful, etc. etc...and there was a series
of counter-threads describing hetero sex as dangerous to the world's existence,
etc. etc.
A real party.
Then there's the straight xians that tell me I'm "goin' ta hayull" for not
making up my mind which woman I want. And you should hear the things they say
about the ladies who actually *want* sexual contact. Yikes! I wonder how they
kiss their mothers with mouths that foul!
Once I saw "testimony" here from some poor slob who was gay AND xian. Talk
about a mixed-up kid.
"..You ask me if sex is one of the most important things in life? Absolutely.
But the *lack* of it is even likelier to drive you nuts."
-Harlan Ellison, "The 3 Most Important Things In Life"
jest...@my-deja.com
In a nutshell: I was not raised in any faith, I was allowed to find my
own way (except for a brief detour into a very weak theism at around 7
or 8...my grandparents insisted on taking me to church). I never
thought of myself as "atheist"...to be honest, I never thought much
about it at all.
Whe I finally did start thinking about it (around my freshman year), I
realized that I had already, subconsciously, placed religion in the same
category as I had placed Greek mythology. I just could not see the
difference between them, except that some people still believed in their
faiths.
At that point, I started researching. I've done a fair amount of
research on different faiths, trying to understand them. I was honestly
curious if there was just something I was missing, some argument that
I'd missed that would allow me to "see the light." I haven't found that
argument yet. If, some day, I discover that one of these religions is
right, I'll sign on. I'm not infallible, and can admit that I was
wrong. As of yet, I just have not seen anything that would lead me to
conclude that the gods that have been described to me are real.
-The Jester, 774
Animeg3282
>
>People are _born_ atheists.
True, but many become theists as they get older. I was asking what caused them
to swicth back.
Bill Thacker
Animeg3282 <anime...@aol.compelsia> wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
>atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
>off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
>me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex, and
>sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad
>objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell for..which
>I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type
>person.
Oddly, for me it was the reverse. I lost the last shred of my faith
when churches, just last decade, began to declare that despite their
centuries-held position, being homosexual was *not* a sentence to
hell.
It was at that point that I saw clearly that the church's postures
*reflect* the mores of society, rather than *create* them. I saw
that historically, churches held low esteem for women - until society
reformed, and the churches began admitting women as equals into the
clergy. It's a repeating pattern: and what it made me realize is that
religion isn't teaching any fundamental truth, some godly wisdom that
transcends the workings of humankind. The Bible is just a big
Rorschach ink blot. If you want it to tell you to hate your neighbor,
you can find support for that. And the priesthood makes a living by
finding ways to justify popular things.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker Atheist #1363 gun...@ds.net
Bill's Rail Buggy Page: http://www.ds.net/~gunner/buggy/buggy.html
"Transported to a surreal land, a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again."
- capsule summary of "The Wizard of Oz"
Frank Wustner
Star" at the moment. Also "Slayers".
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
> exsist?"(you probably didn't say that in so many words, but..) I remember for
> me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex, and
> sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad
> objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell for..
> which I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic
> type person.
I've always been an atheist. My parents sent me to sunday
school (at a presbyterian church) when I was four. I
detested it; I wanted to play outside, not waste my time in
a stuffy room listening to what I felt, even back then,
were the stupidest stories I had ever heard. It never even
occured to me at the time that the lady actually expected
me to believe what she was telling us. My parents stopped
sending me after only a couple months.
I later discovered that dad is atheist and mom is, at most,
a terminally lasped xian, which left me confused as to why
they had bothered sending me to sunday school at all. I
got around to asking them why about a year ago. They say
it was to expose me to religion so that I was not totally
ignorent.
Anyway, after the end of the sunday school excursions, I
was raised in a completely non-religious house, to the
point where I never quite realized that anyone actually
believed that stuff. I merely implicitly assumed that
nobody was silly enough to believe it. I was cured of this
naive thought when I was 12 and a member of the Boy Scouts
of America.
To avoid a long digression, I will merely say this. I
quietly learned, from a fellow scout during a camp-out
Sunday service, that some people do, in fact, believe that
religion is true. From there it was merely a matter of
asking my parents a few more questions and then paying
better attention to the world around me. But by that time
my atheism and my contempt of the silly stories told by
religions (xianity in particular) were too firmly ingrained
for me to start believing. I merely added one more opinion
to my collection: that religious people were all total
idiots for believing such stupidity. I went through the
usual agnostic phases to avoid actually calling myself an
atheist, but I always was and still am an atheist.
I've mellowed a bit since over the past five or six years,
but only towards the possibility of accepting a god (should
evidence ever point to one). Towards *religion* I am still
just as contemptuous.
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://deadly_nightshade.tripod.com/
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade/
|-----------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
|"Advice is a form of nostalgia. | Atheist #119 |
|Dispensing it means fishing the | Knight of BAAWA! |
|past from the disposal, wiping it |-----------------------------------|
|off, painting over the ugly parts, | Want to email me? Go to the URL |
|and recycling it for more than | above and email me from there. |
|it's worth." Mary Schmich |-----------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------|
Animeg3282
>Cool! I live in the US-most folks here would rather watch TV. Ugh. <shivers>
>
That's true. I don;t wacth much TV, though. I'd rather wacth on my own schedule
than someone else's...
>
>Nah, just folks who can't get (or choose not to have) sex, regardless which
>flavor they choose.
>When I said "normal", I meant that it's normal to want to get laid a
>lot...wrong word to use, I guess! <g>
>
>There were a few threads last week where some xian homophobe (who's probably
>as
>straight as the day is long, and in no danger of ever being approached) wrote
>a
>bunch of stuff about gay folks being sinful, etc. etc...and there was a
>series
>of counter-threads describing hetero sex as dangerous to the world's
>existence,
>etc. etc.
>A real party.
>
>Then there's the straight xians that tell me I'm "goin' ta hayull" for not
>making up my mind which woman I want. And you should hear the things they say
>about the ladies who actually *want* sexual contact. Yikes! I wonder how they
>kiss their mothers with mouths that foul!
>
...O.o;; I see. I don't want to know what they'd say about me. Bisexual women
who want to have sex but don't have a SO must be one of the groups who really
ge tthweir goat..
>
>Once I saw "testimony" here from some poor slob who was gay AND xian. Talk
>about a mixed-up kid.
Poor guy..
MrGoodSalt
> [snip] I am, however, convinced that there are no gods, but I'm always
willing to be convinced otherwise.
If interested, check out the book lists and corresponding table of contents at
the web page shown in my signature...
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32
Good Christian books listed and described at:
http://www.hometown.aol.com/mrgoodsalt/index.htm
MrGoodSalt
>[snip] At that point, I started researching. I've done a fair amount of
research on different faiths, trying to understand them. I was honestly
curious if there was just something I was missing, some argument that I'd
missed that would allow me to "see the light." I haven't found that argument
An excellent book to check out if "The Universe Next Door" by James W. Sire. It
describes major world views, 7 questions by which any world view can be
assessed, and even more fascinating, shows how they are related to each other
via a logical progression.
The table of contents for this book can be viewed at my website listed in the
signature. Lot's of other books there too.
MrGoodSalt
>[snip] The Bible is just a big Rorschach ink blot. [snip]
The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy. It sickens me
also, and I believe, reflects the Biblical descriptions of the end-times. Lot's
of people in the Christian world are very concerned about this also. That's why
I prefer fundamentalism.
MrGoodSalt
> [snip] I've mellowed a bit since over the past five or six years, but only
towards the possibility of accepting a god (should evidence ever point to one).
If you want more info to explore, check out the website listed in my signature.
Animeg3282
>What anime do you enjoy the most? I'm rather into "Outlaw
>Star" at the moment. Also "Slayers".
>
A whole lot! Utena, Slayers, Brother Dear Brother and Pelsia and Idol Densetu
Eriko are my favs at this moment, but I haven't been wacthing a lot of anime
lately. *sighs*
>
>I've always been an atheist. My parents sent me to sunday
>school (at a presbyterian church) when I was four. I
>detested it; I wanted to play outside, not waste my time in
>a stuffy room listening to what I felt, even back then,
>were the stupidest stories I had ever heard. It never even
>occured to me at the time that the lady actually expected
>me to believe what she was telling us. My parents stopped
>sending me after only a couple months.
Heh, I was bored in church too. I don't even go nowadays because I find it so
boring. The stories were the best part for me. I remember my confusion when it
said in my little book of bible stories that this guy 'lay' with the girl. I
thought it had something to do with sleeping in the same bed, but I couldn't
see how that would be sinful and cause people to be violent.. O.o
>
>I later discovered that dad is atheist and mom is, at most,
>a terminally lasped xian, which left me confused as to why
>they had bothered sending me to sunday school at all. I
>got around to asking them why about a year ago. They say
>it was to expose me to religion so that I was not totally
>ignorent.
Cool, my dad's a lapsed JW and my mom's a religous Baptist ><;;
>
>Anyway, after the end of the sunday school excursions, I
>was raised in a completely non-religious house, to the
>point where I never quite realized that anyone actually
>believed that stuff. I merely implicitly assumed that
>nobody was silly enough to believe it. I was cured of this
>naive thought when I was 12 and a member of the Boy Scouts
>of America.
>
>To avoid a long digression, I will merely say this. I
>quietly learned, from a fellow scout during a camp-out
>Sunday service, that some people do, in fact, believe that
>religion is true. From there it was merely a matter of
>asking my parents a few more questions and then paying
>better attention to the world around me. But by that time
>my atheism and my contempt of the silly stories told by
>religions (xianity in particular) were too firmly ingrained
>for me to start believing. I merely added one more opinion
>to my collection: that religious people were all total
>idiots for believing such stupidity. I went through the
>usual agnostic phases to avoid actually calling myself an
>atheist, but I always was and still am an atheist.
>
>I've mellowed a bit since over the past five or six years,
>but only towards the possibility of accepting a god (should
>evidence ever point to one). Towards *religion* I am still
>just as contemptuous.
>
I was around people who believed it from the start, and at the beginning, even
I thought it was true.
Bill Thacker
MrGoodSalt <mrgoo...@aol.com> wrote:
>w...@cbemg.cb.lucent.com (Bill Thacker) wrote:
>>[snip] The Bible is just a big Rorschach ink blot. [snip]
>
>The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
>mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy. It sickens me
>also, and I believe, reflects the Biblical descriptions of the end-times. Lot's
>of people in the Christian world are very concerned about this also. That's why
>I prefer fundamentalism.
And if I were a religious man, I think I'd be a fundamentalist. It
seems to me that, when you're relying on an ancient tome to tell you
what God's will is (because let's face it, you can't trust most of the
people who claim God has spoken directly to them), you'd better take
it pretty literally. And it had better be a timeless truth, not
subject to (imperfect) human interpretation.
But I'm not a religious man, and in no small part that's because the
Bible doesn't stand up to such scrutiny. The best Bible scholars,
religious people themselves, agree that a lot of it is misleading,
factually incomplete, requires background knowledge of life in
Canaan 2000+ years ago, or is flat-out mistaken, either through
copyists' errors, authors' mistakes, or intentionally. The book is
too full of nonsense, basically, to allow a literal interpretation.
I'll give fundamentalists credit. I think they, more than most
religious people, try to adopt their lives to their religions.
But don't mistake that for praise: adopting your life to a bunch of
fairy tales that cause you to mistreat others (e.g., telling women
that they have to lead second-class lives, per the Southern Baptists)
is no virtue. Turning off your free will to follow the hateful,
narrow-minded teachings of someone else - whether that's Hitler or
the millenia-dead priests of an ancient tribe - is a bad thing.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker gun...@ds.net
Bill's Rail Buggy Page: http://www.ds.net/~gunner/buggy/buggy.html
"Our governor can beat up your governor." - Minnesota bumper sticker
hrgr...@my-deja.com
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems
to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light
bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system
doesn't
> exsist?"(you probably didn't say that in so many words, but..) I
remember for
> me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex,
and
> sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which
weren't bad
> objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell
for..which
> I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta
agnostic type
> person.
Well, I cannot directly contribute here - because I've been an atheist
from birth. My parents - atheists themselves - never told me about any
superior being. This, BTW, is another confirmation of the claim that
atheism is the default state :-).
I was rather surprised when I heard in elementary school (our country
still had mandatory religious school instructions then) about
this "God" that most other kids took for granted.
Regards,
Hans-Richard Grümm
> Hana no Kaitou
> Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
> Cause of the month: Pastel Yumi
> http://members.aol.com/Animeg3282/index.html ,
> http://members.aol.com/animeg3282/page5/index.htm<--Please visit both
my main
> home page, and Fancy Lala fanclub.
>
Panama Floyd
>Date: 2/22/00 5:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <88v18s$e...@nntpb.cb.lucent.com>
>
snip
> The Bible is just a big
>Rorschach ink blot. If you want it to tell you to hate your neighbor,
>you can find support for that. And the priesthood makes a living by
>finding ways to justify popular things.
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Bill Thacker Atheist #1363 gun...@ds.net
Although this was written while describing the dawn of his own atheism, the
statement stands on it's own. Xianity in a nutshell!
Respectfully submitted for AQOTM, Feb. `00.
Seconds?
Brian Westley
>In article <20000223065219...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
>MrGoodSalt <mrgoo...@aol.com> wrote:
>>w...@cbemg.cb.lucent.com (Bill Thacker) wrote:
>>>[snip] The Bible is just a big Rorschach ink blot. [snip]
>>
>>The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
>>mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy. It sickens me
>>also, and I believe, reflects the Biblical descriptions of the end-times. Lot's
>>of people in the Christian world are very concerned about this also. That's why
>>I prefer fundamentalism.
>And if I were a religious man, I think I'd be a fundamentalist. It
>seems to me that, when you're relying on an ancient tome to tell you
>what God's will is (because let's face it, you can't trust most of the
>people who claim God has spoken directly to them), you'd better take
>it pretty literally. And it had better be a timeless truth, not
>subject to (imperfect) human interpretation.
I'd go further than that - council of Nicea my ass! I'd throw out
the political votes that assembled the books of the bible and
decide myself, probably throwing out all of Paul and John.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
lordsh...@my-deja.com
Aw c'mon! It's fun! See, first one half of the NG tells you you're
going to hell! Then the second half tells the first half to eat shit!
It's ever so much fun... Sort of like Jerry Springer, only the
participants have better grammar. (Well at least one half does...)
>
> >
> >Once I saw "testimony" here from some poor slob who was gay AND
xian. Talk
> >about a mixed-up kid.
>
> Poor guy..
>
lordsh...@my-deja.com
but only
> towards the possibility of accepting a god (should evidence ever
point to one).
>
> If you want more info to explore, check out the website listed in my
signature.
>
> "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
JOHN 8:32
> Good Christian books listed and described at:
> http://www.hometown.aol.com/mrgoodsalt/index.htm
>
"Please believe in my myths! Please!"
Piss off Salty.
Andrew Lias
MrGoodSalt <mrgoo...@aol.com> wrote:
>w...@cbemg.cb.lucent.com (Bill Thacker) wrote:
>>[snip] The Bible is just a big Rorschach ink blot. [snip]
>
>The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
>mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy.
I would think that heresy would be a better term. Apostasy refers to the
renunciation of faith, not the distortion of it. As to conforming
interpretation to the social mood, the Bible has long been the subject of
such revision (arguably, from the very beginning).
>It sickens me
>also, and I believe, reflects the Biblical descriptions of the end-times.
Come now! If divergent interpretation is the issue, certainly the
Protestant Reformation with its hydra-headed formation of new and
mutually incompatible creeds would have represented a far deeper crisis.
> Lot's
>of people in the Christian world are very concerned about this also. That's why
>I prefer fundamentalism.
I think that you are deceiving yourself if you think that fundamentalists
don't indulge in convinient interpretation as well. Although
fundamentalists are less apt to claim that a given passage is merely a
metaphor, and although fundamentalists are quite willing to eschew
scientific interpretations of evidence in favor of religious doctrine,
they are just as capable of social reinterpretation as any other Christian
group.
Ask any given fundamentalist if slavery is against gods will. Unless you
are dealing with a fringe supremacist sect, you are (to their moral
credit) most likely to hear an affirmation that slavery is against gods
will. The Bible, however, does not, in any clear manner, denounce
slavery. Of course, this is no more an impedement inferring a
denounciation of slavery from the Bible than it is for a liberal Christian
to infer a denounciation of gay-bashing, but, in either case, it is a
matter of social interpretation. The same can be said of the abortion
issue, or the all-to-common involvement of fundamentalists in the
political process in general.
Even mutual literalist camps are likely to disagree on the meaning of
Biblical passages. Pentacostals and Jehovas Witnesses both insist that
the Bible is literally true with a minimum of metaphor (e.g., the various
proverbs of Jesus), but Pentacostals believe in eternal hell-fire and JW's
reject the concept of Hell outright. Both are literalists, but neither
agrees with the other on this central point. The reason, of course, is
that, unless one is competent to speak ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koin
Greek, it is, quite literally, impossible to read the Bible without
interpretation. Even if you can read the native languages, it is all-too
easy to honestly dispute the intended meaning of various words and
passages, particularly given the absence of original context.
The fundamentalist position that they, and they alone, are adhearing to
the one true meaning of the Bible is, frankly, an exercise in profound
self-deception.
--
Please direct all replies to anrwlias AT hotmail.com | Siste viator
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely
powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is
deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
http://www.wco.com/~anrwlias
Animeg3282
>Aw c'mon! It's fun! See, first one half of the NG tells you you're
>going to hell! Then the second half tells the first half to eat shit!
>It's ever so much fun... Sort of like Jerry Springer, only the
>participants have better grammar. (Well at least one half does...)
>
>>
Ah....Jerry Springer..the most entertaining show in the world,right?
Animeg3282
>The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
>mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy. It sickens
>me
>also, and I believe, reflects the Biblical descriptions of the end-times.
>Lot's
>of people in the Christian world are very concerned about this also. That's
>why
>I prefer fundamentalism.
>
So trying to correct the bigtories of the fairy tales you believe in so they'll
be more relevent to today is bad?
Lisa...@earthling.net
<88v18s$e...@nntpb.cb.lucent.com>,
w...@cbemg.cb.lucent.com wrote:
> The Bible is just a big
> Rorschach ink blot. If you want it to tell you to hate your neighbor,
> you can find support for that. And the priesthood makes a living by
> finding ways to justify popular things.
**That's my nomination for atheist quote of the month.
Second, anyone?
**Lisa Star
Frank Wustner
> mrgoo...@aol.com (MrGoodSalt) wrote:
> > see...@for.email.org (Frank Wustner) wrote:
> > > [snip] I've mellowed a bit since over the past five or six years,
> > > but only
> > > towards the possibility of accepting a god (should evidence ever
> > > point to one).
> > > Towards *religion* I am still just as contemptuous. [snip]
> > If you want more info to explore, check out the website listed in my
> > signature.
<snip sig>
> "Please believe in my myths! Please!"
> Piss off Salty.
Mr. Moron^H^H^H^H^HGoodSalt has apparently forgotten that I
killfiled him a long time ago.
Frank Wustner
>From: w...@cbemg.cb.lucent.com (Bill Thacker)
> > The Bible is just a big
> >Rorschach ink blot. If you want it to tell you to hate your neighbor,
> >you can find support for that. And the priesthood makes a living by
> >finding ways to justify popular things.
> >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >Bill Thacker Atheist #1363 gun...@ds.net
> Although this was written while describing the dawn of his own atheism, the
> statement stands on it's own. Xianity in a nutshell!
> Respectfully submitted for AQOTM, Feb. `00.
> Seconds?
I second it.
Frank Wustner
> Bill Thacker w...@cbemg.cb.lucent.com wrote:
> > The Bible is just a big
> > Rorschach ink blot. If you want it to tell you to hate your neighbor,
> > you can find support for that. And the priesthood makes a living by
> > finding ways to justify popular things.
> **That's my nomination for atheist quote of the month.
> Second, anyone?
Panama Floyd got this one first, and I've already seconded his
nomination.
Panama Floyd
>From: anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282)
>Date: 2/23/00 4:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20000223162523...@ng-bg1.aol.com>
>
>Mrgoodsalt said:
>
>>The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
>>mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy. It sickens
>>me
>>also,
The "disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
mood" is the only reason your sick lil' bronze age comic book has survived this
long, Salt. You need to "get with the program".
The only reason your lil' tax-free torture temples are finally emptying out is
because so many of your "preachers" stopped doing this thing that "sickens"
you.
If any of you xian idiots had written new "scripture" showing that women were
actually people instead of property, or that homosexuals were born instead of
"made", your lil' myth would still be "packing `em in"! You're winning the
battle, but losing the war.
I sleep well at night knowing folks like you have finally made the mistake of
clinging to the old lies instead of creating new ones.
"Apostacy", LOL. Wake up, idiot. Most folks worldwide don't care if it's called
apostacy, heresy, "back-slidin' ", downhill, bobsled, luge or "Southern Fried
Chicken".
We're just happy that you who would piss down our backs and tell us it's
raining are having such problems doing so.
I say again...your "massa's" ability to lie about current social desires
*shouldn't* sicken you...they've been doing it for TWO THOUSAND YEARS, and it's
the only reason that crap lasted long enough for *you* to hear it. You're
cutting your own throat when you say you hate for other xians to lie when
confronted by modern issues.
You folks who ignore the current age to lie about the past should now provide a
new "saint" for ancient spam.
>>Lot's
>>of people in the Christian world are very concerned about this also.
Yeah, the same folks who were *so* worried about how many "angels" fit on a pin
awhile back..ugh.
Salt, unless you fundies give up the literal "meaning" of the babble, and learn
to lie like the pope does, your favorite sky-monkey story is going to end up on
the same library shelf as Zeus and Thor.
That's
>>why
>>I prefer fundamentalism.
And that's just the beginning of why xianity is failing in the modern world.
The fundies have the helm and engine telegraph, and don't care that the ship is
headed for the rocks at "all ahead flank".
Is that too subtle for you, Goodsalt?
I'll be blunt: The things you hate about your religion are the only things that
have kept it alive.
Your fave form of your myth is dying, Goody.. and your disregarding the need
for change is helping kill every other form of your myth. If you want xianity
to survive at all, you need to give up fundamentalism. Your failure to do so is
just helping your enemies.
Normal, decent folks just don't swallow that fundie crap anymore. If you want
*any* form of your "beeluuuved jeezuz" to survive the next two generations, you
better learn to lie. Lying is the only hope any form of your little myth has
left. Since xianity was based on a lie..you may actually have a chance, if
fundies come up with lies just a little more creative!
That's the last "hint" I'm going to give you, Goodsalt.
Personally, I hope you lose (and when you post more fundie crap responding to
my post, I see the victory one step closer!).
I just wish I could live long enough to see my grandchildren dig up the bones,
and wonder why their ancestors ran in fear from fairies in the sky.
Aw, hey...I don't care if I see it or not. It'll happen.
And I feel honored that I at least saw the beginning of it!
Goodsalt...that is the gift you've given me. With all your whirling & swirling
towards the few gaps in the world that your god has to hide in, I can now see
that humanity will beat this disease one day.
Thank you.
>So trying to correct the bigtories of the fairy tales you believe in so
>they'll
>be more relevent to today is bad?
>
See, Goodsalt? The young ones want answers. Since you don't have them, you
better make something up, instead of saying the old ones still work.
OT: Hey, animeg! I've been declared not a "real" otaku, since I like Dragonball
Z.
I'll admit I've seen better since, but hey!
DBZ was the first anime I ever saw. And you know what folks say about never
forgetting your "first time", eh? ;)
-PF
Panama Floyd
>Date: 2/23/00 4:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20000223162357...@ng-bg1.aol.com>
>
>Lordshaithis said:
>
>>Aw c'mon! It's fun! See, first one half of the NG tells you you're
>>going to hell! Then the second half tells the first half to eat shit!
>>It's ever so much fun... Sort of like Jerry Springer, only the
>>participants have better grammar. (Well at least one half does...)
>>
>>>
>
>Ah....Jerry Springer..the most entertaining show in the world,right?
Mmmabee....but I've not seen "Bubblegum Crisis" yet! <big fuckin' anime grin!>
Michelle Malkin
(Panama Floyd) wrote:
>>From: anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282)
>>Date: 2/23/00 4:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: <20000223162357...@ng-bg1.aol.com>
>>
>>Lordshaithis said:
>>
>>>Aw c'mon! It's fun! See, first one half of the NG tells you you're
>>>going to hell! Then the second half tells the first half to eat shit!
>>>It's ever so much fun... Sort of like Jerry Springer, only the
>>>participants have better grammar. (Well at least one half does...)
>>>
>>>>
>>
>>Ah....Jerry Springer..the most entertaining show in the world,right?
>
>Mmmabee....but I've not seen "Bubblegum Crisis" yet! <big fuckin' anime grin!>
>
>-Panama Floyd, Atlanta
>aa# maybe soon...
Ask and ye shall receive. ;)
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
aa atheist/agnostic list #1 ULC #3 ~EAC list #1
High Priestess Bastet of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am
EAC Bible Thumper Thumper BAAWA Knight Who Says SPONG!
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to
give it to others. - William Allen White, Emporia Gazette
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Doug
Tremblay) wrote:
>anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote in
><20000221211904...@ng-cp1.aol.com>:
>
>
><snip>
>>I remember for me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started
>>thinking about sex, and sexuality and things like that. I had
>>some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad objectively, but I had been
>>taught that God would throw me into hell for..which I thought of as
>>unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type person.
>
>
>Geeze, you can come out of the closet. No need to do so much hemming.
You are still an asshole I see.... Some things never change.
Doug
MrGoodSalt
>>> [snip] The Bible is just a big Rorschach ink blot. [snip]
MrGoodSalt <mrgoo...@aol.com> wrote:
>> The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy. It sickens me
also, and I believe, reflects the Biblical descriptions of the end-times. Lot's
of people in the Christian world are very concerned about this also. That's why
I prefer fundamentalism.
w...@cbemg.cb.lucent.com (Bill Thacker) wrote:
> [snip]... But I'm not a religious man, and in no small part that's because
the Bible doesn't stand up to such scrutiny. The best Bible scholars,
religious people themselves, agree that a lot of it is misleading, factually
incomplete, requires background knowledge of life in Canaan 2000+ years ago, or
is flat-out mistaken, either through
copyists' errors, authors' mistakes, or intentionally. The book is
too full of nonsense, basically, to allow a literal interpretation. ... [snip]
Lot's of people claim the Bible is flawed or inaccurate, but the criticisms
don't seem to hold up. Perhaps you and I have been looking at different
information. You might be interested in the following book (it is a excellent
overview of major topics in Christian apologetics):
"Ready With An Answer: For the Tough Questions About God" by John Ankerberg and
John Weldon. You can get more information about this book from the website
listed in my signature.
MrGoodSalt
>>> [snip] The Bible is just a big Rorschach ink blot. [snip]
MrGoodSalt <mrgoo...@aol.com> wrote:
>> The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy.
[snip]
>> It sickens me also, and I believe, reflects the Biblical descriptions of the
end-times.
anrw...@shell.ncal.verio.com (Andrew Lias) wrote:
> Come now! If divergent interpretation is the issue, certainly the
Protestant Reformation with its hydra-headed formation of new and
mutually incompatible creeds would have represented a far deeper crisis.
I can deal with sloppiness between denominations. What concerns me is things
like postmodernism where Christianity is viewed as just another meta-narrative
capable of providing personal meaning but not to be confused with any objective
truth "out there". Oh, and where the only enemy left in the world are those who
claim to know the truth.
You might be interested in the following books which I have not yet added to
the website listing shown in my signature:
"The Death of Truth" by Dennis McCallum
"The New Tolerance" by Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler
"A Primer on Postmodernism" by Stanley J. Grenz
MrGoodSalt
>> The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
also, and I believe, reflects the Biblical descriptions of the end-times. Lot's
of people in the Christian world are very concerned about this also. That's why
I prefer fundamentalism.
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> So trying to correct the bigtories of the fairy tales you believe in so
they'll be more relevent to today is bad?
The whole point of a revealed religion is to preserve and disseminate original
truths given to man by God. You aren't supposed to alter those truths to
appease the mob.
MrGoodSalt
>> The disintegration of Biblical standards to conform to the prevailing social
mood which you have identified is what Christians call apostacy. It sickens me
panam...@aol.compoospam (Panama Floyd) wrote:
> [big snip]... And that's just the beginning of why xianity is failing in the
modern world. The fundies have the helm and engine telegraph, and don't care
that the ship is headed for the rocks at "all ahead flank".
Christianity isn't going to die, it is the anti-God world system that is going
to die, and it will die in the apocalypse which looks like it will arrive in
our lifetimes.
> Is that too subtle for you, Goodsalt? I'll be blunt: The things you hate
about your religion are the only things that have kept it alive.
The 10 commandments are the same today as they were 3000 years ago. Changing
them to conform to the prevailing social mood then would have been just as
foolish as changing them now.
> Your fave form of your myth is dying, Goody.. and your disregarding the need
for change is helping kill every other form of your myth. If you want xianity
to survive at all, you need to give up fundamentalism. Your failure to do so is
just helping your enemies.
Again, It is the world that is dying, not Christianity. The church will live
forever. However, I agree that there is an increasing anti-Christian mood
growing out in the world.
> Normal, decent folks just don't swallow that fundie crap anymore. If you want
*any* form of your "beeluuuved jeezuz" to survive the next two generations, you
better learn to lie. Lying is the only hope any form of your little myth has
left. Since xianity was based on a lie..you may actually have a chance, if
fundies come up with lies just a little more creative! ... [big snip]
The truth is the only hope for any of us. Also, I don't think there is going to
be a next generation prior to the apocalypse.
Tirdun
mrgoo...@aol.com (MrGoodSalt) wrote:
> Tirdun brian_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > [snip] I am, however, convinced that there are no gods, but I'm
always
> willing to be convinced otherwise.
>
> If interested, check out the book lists and corresponding table of
contents at
> the web page shown in my signature...
I already have. I can't claim to have read all or even most, mainly
because they're all very similar in their copious claims but scant
support.
I've read "History and Christianity" and I was almost infuriated until
I noted that the book was written in 1964. Montgomery had very little
to say then, and much of it has been destroyed by further works.
"Mere Christianity" was required reading for courses in comparitive
theology in college. It was an abyssmal farce. I can't even begin to go
into how that book was chewed apart.
"Signature of God" was another skewed attack on history. I barely
managed half of the book and gave up. The theories put forth were
comical at best, idiotic at worst.
"The Bible Code" is a joke. The mathmatics have been proven over and
over. I cannot believe that any intelligent person still gives credence
to the codes. Opponents have all but buried them by producing similar
results in other similar books, and my mathmatical background convinces
me that any work of sufficient length will produce these "codes".
"The positive impact of Christianity" is a big wish-fest while ignoring
the inquisition, crusades, native genocide, witch hunts, and present
day bigotry and evil found in "believers".
I doubt if I'll be reading any of the rest, as the sampling I've
managed to track down has done little to convince me of the merit of
the others.
Tirdun
tirdun at yahoo dot com
KoX EAC
Animeg3282
>The whole point of a revealed religion is to preserve and disseminate
>original
>truths given to man by God. You aren't supposed to alter those truths to
>appease the mob.
>
I don't really believe in a God, so I doubt those truths were given to you by
God, definately since it's so easy to write holy books. Maybe the people
altering them have some sense of logic,ok? They aren't going to get many people
to come to the flock if they are woman hating and to a lesser extent, gay
bashing. Anyway, even if the Bible was truth, how would you know the whole
picture since some books are missing? (Some were removed from the final cut of
the Bible)
Animeg3282
>>From: w...@cbemg.cb.lucent.com (Bill Thacker)
>>Date: 2/22/00 5:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: <88v18s$e...@nntpb.cb.lucent.com>
>>
>
>snip
>
>> The Bible is just a big
>>you can find support for that. And the priesthood makes a living by
>>finding ways to justify popular things.
>>
>>Bill Thacker Atheist #1363 gun...@ds.net
Panama Floyd said:
>Although this was written while describing the dawn of his own atheism, the
>statement stands on it's own. Xianity in a nutshell!
>
>Respectfully submitted for AQOTM, Feb. `00.
>Seconds?
>
I agree?
Animeg3282
>Mmmabee....but I've not seen "Bubblegum Crisis" yet!
>
You should! Real bad dubbing, but good show!
Animeg3282
>> The Bible is just a big
>> Rorschach ink blot. If you want it to tell you to hate your neighbor,
>> you can find support for that. And the priesthood makes a living by
>> finding ways to justify popular things.
Lisa Star said:
>**That's my nomination for atheist quote of the month.
> Second, anyone?
>
I second it again? :D
Abner Mintz
> Lot's of people claim the Bible is flawed or inaccurate, but the criticisms
> don't seem to hold up.
"Actually, the criticisms generally do hold up - unless
you are so attached to the Bible that you are willing
to twist fact and logic to any degree necessary to
protect the Bible from criticism."
>You might be interested in the following book (it is a excellent
> overview of major topics in Christian apologetics):
> "Ready With An Answer: For the Tough Questions About God" by John Ankerberg and
> John Weldon.
"Mr. Goodsalt sent me this book (though he's not willing
to admit to having done so now, which is highly irritating,
as I had wanted to discuss it with him). It was, to put
it bluntly, tripe - it blatantly misrepresents science
to put it in the worst possible light, so how can you
trust it about non-science where the 'answers' are so
much more vague?"
CTThegreat
wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
>atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
>off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
>exsist?"(you probably didn't say that in so many words, but..) I remember for
>me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex, and
>sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad
>objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell for..which
>I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type
>person.
I read the bible.
I could not justify belief in a misogynistic god. This led me to
think about all the other crap and I eventually realised that gods are
nothing but fantasies of the demented.
CT
===
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and
only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind
would be no more justified in silencing that one person,
than he, if he had the power, would be justified in
silencing mankind."---J.S. Mill
Francois Tremblay
<38b4f7c3...@news.uswest.net>:
>On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 03:00:50 GMT, mdi...@sympatico.ca (Francois
>Tremblay) wrote:
>
>>anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote in
>><20000221211904...@ng-cp1.aol.com>:
>>
>>
>><snip>
>>>I remember for me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started
>>>thinking about sex, and sexuality and things like that. I had
>>>some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad objectively, but I had been
>>>taught that God would throw me into hell for..which I thought of as
>>>unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type person.
>>
>>
>>Geeze, you can come out of the closet. No need to do so much hemming.
>
>
> You are still an asshole I see.... Some things never change.
Where did that come from ? Oh well. Another moron to plonk.
--Franc
--
Strong-atheist number 1 -- Boycott alt.atheism numbers !
Left or right - same scam. FREEDOM is the only way out.
Objective Thinking web site - http://www.angelfire.com/pq/fratre/
Mindkites e-zine - http://www.mindkites.com/
"A cathedral symbolizes a person's body. When someone acts like they
know what's going on inside your mind and body, they are violating your
cathedral."
--Richard Ames Hart
Numbers don't exist, but there are alt.atheism bigot numbers.
Frank Wustner
>From: anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282)
> >>Aw c'mon! It's fun! See, first one half of the NG tells you you're
> >>going to hell! Then the second half tells the first half to eat shit!
> >>It's ever so much fun... Sort of like Jerry Springer, only the
> >>participants have better grammar. (Well at least one half does...)
> >Ah....Jerry Springer..the most entertaining show in the world,right?
> Mmmabee....but I've not seen "Bubblegum Crisis" yet! <big fuckin' anime grin!>
I have. I thought it was fuckin' dumb. You might disagree
with my conclusion, though, so don't let me stop you. ^_^x
Concini
Animeg3282 wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
> exsist?"
I always had gone to church with my family, but around 13-14 years old I was
gaining little satisfaction from the sermons. I therefore decided to read the
Bible. That basically killed my belief.
j
FrankML
>off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system doesn't
No, it was a gradual process for me. I was an agnostic for a very long
time before I even thought of the word "atheist." I dallied in
Paganism, Wicca, and Unitarian Universalism before I came to the
realization that I am in fact atheist.
Truth is, I come from a loving family, no abuse or divorce. I was
raised Roman Catholic but both my parents didn't believe in either the
infallibility of the bible or the pope. I was allowed to seek my own
path from an early age (14) without question. It wasn't thinking about
sex or other alleged sins that led me down the path of skepticism.
I simply questioned who god was, apart from what the priests said.
This god never answered, but the priests were sure quick to condemn!
I saw the hypocrasy and the lies. This god continued its silence. I
learned and I moved on. I became conviced via experience that there is
no god or gods, but I didn't lose my humanity along the way.
Ain't life a pip.
Frank
-----
Doubt? It doesn't frighten me.
(Richard Feynman)
Panama Floyd
>Date: 2/24/00 5:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20000224053202...@ng-fz1.aol.com>
>
>Christianity isn't going to die, it is the anti-God world system that is
>going
>to die, and it will die in the apocalypse which looks like it will arrive in
>our lifetimes.
I'd thank him for giving evidence to my postition...but he'd never see it.
>> Is that too subtle for you, Goodsalt? I'll be blunt: The things you hate
>about your religion are the only things that have kept it alive.
>
>The 10 commandments are the same today as they were 3000 years ago. Changing
>them to conform to the prevailing social mood then would have been just as
>foolish as changing them now.
>
>> Your fave form of your myth is dying, Goody.. and your disregarding the
>need
>for change is helping kill every other form of your myth. If you want xianity
>to survive at all, you need to give up fundamentalism. Your failure to do so
>is
>just helping your enemies.
>
>Again, It is the world that is dying, not Christianity. The church will live
>forever. However, I agree that there is an increasing anti-Christian mood
>growing out in the world.
>
In the name of St. Micheal, St. John, and St. George, I give you the right to
bear arms, etc., Goodsalt. I knight you "Sir Cleopatra", since you're the
"queen of de-nile".
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta
aa# maybe soon...
MrGoodSalt
> I doubt if I'll be reading any of the rest, as the sampling I've managed to
track down has done little to convince me of the merit of the others.
Before you give up, I suggest you try one or both of the following:
"The Universe Next Door" by James W. Sire
"Ready With an Answer: For the Tough Questions About God" by John Ankerberg and
John Weldon
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32
Animeg3282
>
>I have read the Bible and my gut feel is that whatever wrote it was no man.
>(Twilight Zone music, please...)
>
well, my 'gut feel' is different.
>
>Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used it
>to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could
>have
>produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
Why? It's easy to write those types of stories. I could write them for you
right now. All you have to be is a capable fiction writer.
>
>There is too much truth and too much holiness in the Bible for it to have
>come
>from this world.
Actually, some of it is lies, and some of it is well..not holy.. (The part
about slautering Midinites, the part where poor Lot's wife gets turned into
salt, the part where Lot's daughters screw him, etc)
MrGoodSalt
>> The whole point of a revealed religion is to preserve and disseminate
original truths given to man by God. You aren't supposed to alter those truths
to appease the mob.
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> I don't really believe in a God, so I doubt those truths were given to you by
God, definately since it's so easy to write holy books.
I have read the Bible and my gut feel is that whatever wrote it was no man.
(Twilight Zone music, please...)
Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used it
to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could have
produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
There is too much truth and too much holiness in the Bible for it to have come
from this world.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32
Animeg3282
>I have. I thought it was fuckin' dumb. You might disagree
>with my conclusion, though, so don't let me stop you. ^_^x
It's ok. I think CCSakura is f---ing dumb. *shurgs*
isa...@my-deja.com
Good question
Unfortunately I was in my 30's before the light bulb went off.
It wasn't any one incident that promoted my conversion. There were
important issues that brought to light the fallacy of a belief system
which did not work. For those christians that say it does work it is not
a god that makes it work but the collective body of individuals with a
common philosophy, shared cultural traits, and like goals, that make it
work. Any support system with shared values will work accordingly.
My conversion stemmed from key life issues that despite the 'promises'
of a deity, in reality had no affect on the situation. In my experience
nothing fails like prayer. No amount of dedication, reverence ect. had
affect on the outcome. I steadily drifted away and when agents of
religion tried to reel me back in I started to ask pertinent questions
in which the answers seemed so ridiculous as to insult my intelligence.
I have always been scientificaly minded and this also seemed to
expediate my retreat. I expressed these concerns to my minister and was
met with a convuluded explaination that my concept of god was flawed.
That I expected a diety to make meaning out of the chaos. That was it
for me. Yes, that IS what I expected, it is an element that the 'good
book' always seems to rest on.
My question was what good is a god that cannot have an affect on
chaos...the answer was..none.
Disussions with my religious siblings and friends regarding my eventual
damnation has only solidified my ideas. I ruffle their feathers when
they ask me what I will do when I appear before god to be judged....I
answer...kick HIS Butt for creating some a dumb-ass system of
beliefs....their eyes widen and they shake their heads....but as we know
I have nothing to worry about.
You were 'converted' at an early age. It is my guess that the younger
one comes to this realization the more 'conscious' they remain for the
rest of their life. In your example 'guilt' may not be as much an issue
regarding sexual practices. The elimination of unwarranted guilt was a
healthy thing (though I am not proposing that deviant sexual practices
that hurt someone else is healthy). But the aspect of reducing guilt,
which religion does NOT do, has to be healthier psychologically in the
long run. Be grateful that you found this out for yourself at an early
age.
Steve Knight
>MrGoodsalt said:
>>> The whole point of a revealed religion is to preserve and disseminate
>original truths given to man by God. You aren't supposed to alter those truths
>to appease the mob.
One of the "truth's" in your book of spells is to kill witches.
It's pretty clear. So are you advocating rounding up witches and
killing them just because the "mob" refuses to do so?
>I have read the Bible and my gut feel is that whatever wrote it was no man.
>(Twilight Zone music, please...)
>
>Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used it
>to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could have
>produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
>
>There is too much truth and too much holiness in the Bible for it to have come
>from this world.
Good grief!
Pedalling religion because you have a "feeling" it's true, is one
of the lamest methods I can think of. It's obvious you cannot grasp
the difference between bleating to nodding god-bots and free thinking
atheists.
Salty, you really are an idiot. Apparently your masturbation
induced dementia has taken you from whining the, "Please, please read
these books!" to, "Believe me because I have a feeling".
Steve Knight #855
Knight of BAAWA
Don Kresch
>Tirdun brian_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> I doubt if I'll be reading any of the rest, as the sampling I've managed to
>track down has done little to convince me of the merit of the others.
>
>Before you give up, I suggest you try one or both of the following:
>
>"The Universe Next Door" by James W. Sire
>
>"Ready With an Answer: For the Tough Questions About God" by John Ankerberg and
>John Weldon
Xer apologetics--trouble is they never get around to apologizing for the
idiocy that is the xer death-cult.
Don
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, EAC Decryption squad
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
matthew...@my-deja.com
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems
to
bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system
doesn't
remember for
> me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex,
and
> sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which
weren't bad
> objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell
for..which
> I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta
agnostic type
> person.
>
Two years boarding in a Benedictine monastry school did it for me.
Yuck...
Matt
(Religious preference... Onanism)
A. O'Reilly
mrgoo...@aol.com says...
> I have read the Bible and my gut feel is that whatever wrote it was no man.
> (Twilight Zone music, please...)
Of course not, it was several men at several different times. This helps
to explain the inconsistencies in it... such as the story of the
crucifixion and resurrection, with the many details which just don't
jive.
> Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used it
> to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could have
> produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
Of course not, if the best of men had produced the Bible, they would
hardly be deserving of the title "best of men" - "mediocre author" would
have been more fitting.
> There is too much truth and too much holiness in the Bible for it to have come
> from this world.
What truths? That we should be nice to each other? Wowzers! Original!
And holiness? How does one identify holiness? I'm sure that a Jew who
reads the New Testament fails to see it...
Puck Greenman
I've told it before, but I will tell it again.
Abridged version.
When I was young, I was a devout member of my church, and very well versed xtanity
and my bible. At the tender age of 12 and a half I was given my own sunday school
class. I attended church and bible class on a regular basis, bible class was four
times a week, and church was five times a week. I had no other desire in life than
to become a minister.
One sunday I asked an indelicate question in bible class, and the minister hit
the roof. He called me a heathen and then an atheist. I knew what a heathen was,
but "atheist" was a new one on me, I was only thirteen, and had led a very
sheltered life. I was thrown off the church grounds, and told to go home and pray,
and not to return until god had forgiven me.
I was very upset, as at that time I had no idea what it was that I had done. When my
mother and grandfather were told I got a beating, several actually, I have still
got
some of the scars.
I was ostracized by the whole village, until such time as I should return to
church.
I started praying, I had no idea what my sin was, and nobody would talk to me to
tell me, all I could get was "You know very well" from the minister, and more
beatings from my mother and grandfather. All that I could do was pray, but I knew
beyond any shadow of doubt that my jesus would forgive me, and I would know that I
was forgiven " By the lightness of my soul, and the joy in my heart". Well I didn't
happen immediately, but I knew that god sometimes tests us, and that he would not
make me suffer his absence very long for a sin committed in ignorance, and I was
truly sorry for what ever it was I had done, I would never deliberately do anything
to hurt my jesus. My faith sustained me for five years. At sixteen my mother
informed me that she would not risk her immortal soul for me any longer as it was
obvious that I had no intention of asking god to forgive me. I was not only thrown
out of my church, but out of my home and village. Still I had unquestioning faith
that my jesus had a good reason for what he was doing, and perhaps there was more
that I could do to prove how sorry I was. I had no idea what that might be though.
At home, when I was not at school I was in my room praying, later when I was not
working I was in my room praying and reading my bible, I knew that the answer was
in there if I only looked with an open heart.
At eighteen a girl forced her way into my life. She insisted on sitting with me in
the works canteen, and trying to make conversation. She had the patience of a
saint, because after five years of solitude I had no idea what she was talking
about most of the time.
She persuaded me to go to a pub with her, it was on the understanding that we could
leave if I didn't like it. We never got to the pub, I just couldn't hack it, drink
was the devil's tool, the only time I was allowed to touch "strong drink", was
during communion, and even then only wet my lips.
In the finnish she took me home to meet her family, atheists all, and they started
my education.
She and I have been together for over forty years, married of thirty two of them,
and I have been an atheist, knowingly for forty years.
With her I finally found peace of mind,the peace of mind that my faith had destroyed
so completely.
My sin?
I asked who Cain had married.
Puck Greenman
#162
BAAWA Knight.
ICQ 15096558
The spelling, like any opinion stated here,
is purely my own
Erwin Hanke
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from theist belief systems
to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence for you when the light
bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity in my belief system
doesn't
> exsist?"(you probably didn't say that in so many words, but..) I
remember for
> me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started thinking about sex,
and
> sexuality and things like that. I had some..uh..oddities, which
weren't bad
> objectively, but I had been taught that God would throw me into hell
for..which
> I thought of as unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta
agnostic type
> person.
>
I read the "good Book" and that did it for me. I found out that God is love. He
so loves to watch innocent babies die that he started the flood.
I found out that God has a sense of humor. He must have laughed himself silly when
he saw what the 12000 horny Israelite soldiers were doing to all those 16000 young
virgins that he gave them as spoils. (Num. 31) Don’t you like to watch little girls
being raped? How about your daughter?
I found out that God enjoys nice smells. Think of the beautiful aroma emanating
from the Israelite hearths as they offered up 352 virgins to their god as He
requested. (Num. 31) And He was pleasaed!
I found out that God’s book sucks. It is a scam perpetrated by the ministers and
priests to exploit to the uneducated for their own monetary gain.
I also prefer to live in a dangerous universe that just happens to be so, than one
that was deliberately designed that way.
Erwin
Michelle Malkin
What sect were these people. Puck? They sound like the
Midwich CuckoosWas the law ever informed of the way they had
treated you for three years and then threw you out, or did
you just say good riddance to a bad lot?
Have any of your relatives tried to contact you since then?
Maybe you were really fortunate, in the long run. You did
escape from their evil brainwashing, and you didn't turn out
like them. And, you met some wonderful people who led you to
a much better life. I'm happy for you. And, I'm certainly
glad you're a member of this newsgroup.
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
aa atheist/agnostic list #1 ULC #3 ~EAC list #1
High Priestess Bastet of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am
EAC Bible Thumper Thumper BAAWA Knight Who Says SPONG!
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to
give it to others. - William Allen White, Emporia Gazette
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Animeg3282
O.o; I'm glad we don't have such terrible punishments nowadays..
Animeg3282
>My conversion stemmed from key life issues that despite the 'promises'
>of a deity, in reality had no affect on the situation. In my experience
>nothing fails like prayer. No amount of dedication, reverence ect. had
>affect on the outcome. I steadily drifted away and when agents of
>religion tried to reel me back in I started to ask pertinent questions
>in which the answers seemed so ridiculous as to insult my intelligence.
> I have always been scientificaly minded and this also seemed to
>expediate my retreat. I expressed these concerns to my minister and was
>met with a convuluded explaination that my concept of god was flawed.
>That I expected a diety to make meaning out of the chaos. That was it
>for me. Yes, that IS what I expected, it is an element that the 'good
>book' always seems to rest on.
>My question was what good is a god that cannot have an affect on
>chaos...the answer was..none.
That's true. My luck actually seems better since I've stopped being religous
O.o;
>
>You were 'converted' at an early age. It is my guess that the younger
>one comes to this realization the more 'conscious' they remain for the
>rest of their life. In your example 'guilt' may not be as much an issue
> regarding sexual practices. The elimination of unwarranted guilt was a
> healthy thing (though I am not proposing that deviant sexual practices
>that hurt someone else is healthy). But the aspect of reducing guilt,
>which religion does NOT do, has to be healthier psychologically in the
>long run. Be grateful that you found this out for yourself at an early
>age.
It's not anything really bad..unless the woman wishes I'd stop looking at her.
*ducks*
MrGoodSalt
>> Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used
it to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could
have produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> Why? It's easy to write those types of stories. I could write them for you
right now. All you have to be is a capable fiction writer.
NOT. There is no way a human could write something like the Bible.
First of all, it is beyond what a human is capable of imagining. A human author
of the Bible would need to be able to imagine what God is like and then come up
with what such a God would say to humanity and why that God would create the
world and mankind in the first place. Therefore, any human created God-story
would be limited by the imaginations of men and could never be "beyond-human".
Sure, you could make up stories, but a human would not be able to imitate the
real thing or go beyond the limits of humanity. I think the Bible is something
that has come from a beyond-human source.
Plus there are all sorts of fascinating characterisitics of the Bible. It is
simple (10 commandments, great commandments) and yet profound. It is written in
several different forms (law, history, poetry, revelation, prophecy) by 40
authors over a couple thousand years and yet it is remarkably consistent and
coherent with a central theme expressed at multiple levels in a variety of ways
from beginning to end.
MrGoodSalt
>> The whole point of a revealed religion is to preserve and disseminate
original truths given to man by God. You aren't supposed to alter those truths
to appease the mob.
Steve Knight cableone wrote:
> One of the "truth's" in your book of spells is to kill witches.
It's pretty clear. So are you advocating rounding up witches and
killing them just because the "mob" refuses to do so?
This brings up the whole issue of why we don't enforce virtually any of the Old
Testament penalties for things like murder, rape, adultery, homosexuality, etc.
I'm not sure why. I THINK it is because the Old Testament was the age of law
and the New Testament started the age of grace. I could be wrong.
>> I have read the Bible and my gut feel is that whatever wrote it was no man.
(Twilight Zone music, please...)
>> Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used
it to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could
have produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
>> There is too much truth and too much holiness in the Bible for it to have
come from this world.
> Good grief!
> Pedalling religion because you have a "feeling" it's true, is one
of the lamest methods I can think of. It's obvious you cannot grasp
the difference between bleating to nodding god-bots and free thinking
atheists. [snip]
I never claimed my "feeling" as the singular reason why I believe God exists
and Christianity is true. Also, I am aware the self-appointed guardians of
science catagorize truth identification via feelings as unscientific.
Shockingly enough, the postmodernists probably will determine truth based
purely on "what feels right for me". You might want to check out:
"The Death of Truth" by Dennis McCallum
"The New Tolerance" by Josh McDowell
"A Primer on Postmodernism" by Stanley Grenz
MrGoodSalt
>> I have read the Bible and my gut feel is that whatever wrote it was no man.
(Twilight Zone music, please...)
a...@harvard.edu (A. O'Reilly) wrote:
> Of course not, it was several men at several different times. This helps to
explain the inconsistencies in it... such as the story of the
crucifixion and resurrection, with the many details which just don't
jive.
They do jive. It may APPEAR inconsistent because not all of the descriptions
are laid out in exact A-Z fashion. Although the Bible generally follows a
past-present-future timeline there are lots of places in the Bible where it is
refering to other parts of the timeline. It can get confusing, but it does
ultimately jive.
>> Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used
it to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could
have produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
> Of course not, if the best of men had produced the Bible, they would hardly
be deserving of the title "best of men" - "mediocre author" would have been
more fitting.
Cute.
>> There is too much truth and too much holiness in the Bible for it to have
come from this world.
> What truths? That we should be nice to each other? Wowzers! Original!
I agree that intellectual understanding of the principle "be a nice person" is
not a profound wowzer, although it's effective application over a lifetime is a
whole other catagory of challenge.
Plus, there are other truths the Bible helps us with:
- Why does the world exist?
- What are we?
- Why is the world the way it is?
- Will things always be this way?
- Is paradise possible?
- How do we tell good from bad?
- Where did we come from and where are we going?
- What is important in life?
> And holiness? How does one identify holiness? [snip]
God determines what is holy. As far as I can tell from the Bible, God is holy
and we definitely are not.
hrgr...@my-deja.com
mrgoo...@aol.com (MrGoodSalt) wrote:
> MrGoodSalt said:
> >> Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests
who used
> it to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of
men could
> have produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
>
> > Why? It's easy to write those types of stories. I could write them
for you
> right now. All you have to be is a capable fiction writer.
>
> NOT. There is no way a human could write something like the Bible.
>
> First of all, it is beyond what a human is capable of imagining. A
human author
> of the Bible would need to be able to imagine what God is like and
then come up
> with what such a God would say to humanity and why that God would
create the
> world and mankind in the first place. Therefore, any human created
God-story
> would be limited by the imaginations of men and could never
be "beyond-human".
An argument that the bible is "beyond-human" which is not based on your
personal say-so would be nice in this place.
My personal opinion is that the god of the bible is much more
anthropomorphic - and thus definitely not "beyond-human" - than the god
of the Qu'ran.
> Sure, you could make up stories, but a human would not be able to
imitate the
> real thing or go beyond the limits of humanity. I think the Bible is
something
> that has come from a beyond-human source.
>
> Plus there are all sorts of fascinating characterisitics of the
Bible. It is
> simple (10 commandments, great commandments) and yet profound. It is
written in
> several different forms (law, history, poetry, revelation, prophecy)
by 40
> authors over a couple thousand years and yet it is remarkably
consistent
No wonder, since the later authors had read the earlier ones - and that
later councils eliminated all those which were not "politically
correct", as we would call it today.
and
> coherent with a central theme expressed at multiple levels in a
variety of ways
> from beginning to end.
So are the Vedas and the Mahabharata. I do not deny that religious
texts are great works of our common human enterprise (similar to world-
famous pictures, plays, mathematical proofs etc.). But they are "beyond-
human" only in the eyes of a believer.
HRG.
lordsh...@my-deja.com
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> Lordshaithis said:
>
> >Aw c'mon! It's fun! See, first one half of the NG tells you you're
> >going to hell! Then the second half tells the first half to eat
shit!
> >It's ever so much fun... Sort of like Jerry Springer, only the
> >participants have better grammar. (Well at least one half does...)
> >
> >>
>
> Ah....Jerry Springer..the most entertaining show in the world,right?
Of course!
(flings a chair)
Actually, about five minutes every three months fills my quota for
unbathed hillbilly mayhem.
>
> Hana no Kaitou
> Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
> Cause of the month: Pastel Yumi
> http://members.aol.com/Animeg3282/index.html ,
> http://members.aol.com/animeg3282/page5/index.htm<--Please visit both
my main
> home page, and Fancy Lala fanclub.
>
Animeg3282
>NOT. There is no way a human could write something like the Bible.
Yes, if the person was good at making things up, they could.
>
>First of all, it is beyond what a human is capable of imagining. A human
>author
>of the Bible would need to be able to imagine what God is like and then come
>up
>with what such a God would say to humanity and why that God would create the
>world and mankind in the first place. Therefore, any human created God-story
>would be limited by the imaginations of men and could never be
>"beyond-human".
>Sure, you could make up stories, but a human would not be able to imitate the
>real thing or go beyond the limits of humanity. I think the Bible is
>something
>that has come from a beyond-human source.
? They didn't go beyond humanity. The Old Testiment goes like normal myths(you
know, like the Greek ones) do. God creates world. Some force causes there to be
a fall. Stories of why things are are put in. The only difference is that there
are a lot of war stories in it, and war stories are easy to make if you have
sufficent imaganation. The NT has some drama in it, with a story of a demi-god
and it ends with wish-fufillment(God forgives everyone's sins. If we do what
God says, we live forever) Throw in some platitudes, and you have the Bible.
You should read some myths from other cultures, you know?
>
>Plus there are all sorts of fascinating characterisitics of the Bible. It is
>simple (10 commandments, great commandments) and yet profound.
I can make simple rules too, and given enough time, I can be prfound.
>It is written in
>several different forms (law, history, poetry, revelation, prophecy) by 40
>authors over a couple thousand years and yet it is remarkably consistent and
>coherent with a central theme expressed at multiple levels in a variety of
>ways
>from beginning to end.
>
It's not consistent. Like in the OT, God is both nice(giving people life,
saving people from slavery) and cruel(giving premission for people to slauter
some other tribe) And in the NT, he turns to all suger-butter. There are some
other inconsistences, too, but you might have to look up a Bibical
inconsistences page for that.
Steve Knight
>Steve Knight cableone wrote:
>> One of the "truth's" in your book of spells is to kill witches.
>It's pretty clear. So are you advocating rounding up witches and
>killing them just because the "mob" refuses to do so?
>
>This brings up the whole issue of why we don't enforce virtually any of the Old
>Testament penalties for things like murder, rape, adultery, homosexuality, etc.
>
Sounds like Salad Bar christianity. Since the Old Testament is
fraught with, by our modern standards, moral obscenity, you choose to
ignore it or use Apologetic's to explain it away.
It's been suggested that the New Testament was only written to tone
down the old. Makes you wonder why your "inspired by god" bible wasn't
written in a more holy perspective.
>>> I have read the Bible and my gut feel is that whatever wrote it was no man.
>(Twilight Zone music, please...)
>I never claimed my "feeling" as the singular reason why I believe God exists
>and Christianity is true.
The bible was written by man. It's as obvious as being hit in the
head with a rock. It's one of the most perfectly written works of man
I have ever seen. A god would not have his creations stone someone to
death, but man would. A god wouldn't need to burn witches, again, man
would because of his fear of the unknown. Your bible just gives him
the moral approval to do so.
Landis D. Ragon
>MrGoodSalt said:
>>> Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used
>it to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could
>have produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
>
>anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
>> Why? It's easy to write those types of stories. I could write them for you
>right now. All you have to be is a capable fiction writer.
>
>NOT. There is no way a human could write something like the Bible.
>
>First of all, it is beyond what a human is capable of imagining. A human author
>of the Bible would need to be able to imagine what God is like and then come up
>with what such a God would say to humanity and why that God would create the
>world and mankind in the first place. Therefore, any human created God-story
>would be limited by the imaginations of men and could never be "beyond-human".
>Sure, you could make up stories, but a human would not be able to imitate the
>real thing or go beyond the limits of humanity. I think the Bible is something
>that has come from a beyond-human source.
Counterargument: J.R.R. Tolkien
>
>Plus there are all sorts of fascinating characterisitics of the Bible. It is
>simple (10 commandments, great commandments) and yet profound. It is written in
>several different forms (law, history, poetry, revelation, prophecy) by 40
>authors over a couple thousand years and yet it is remarkably consistent and
>coherent with a central theme expressed at multiple levels in a variety of ways
>from beginning to end.
>
>
>
>
>
>"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32
>Good Christian books listed and described at:
>http://www.hometown.aol.com/mrgoodsalt/index.htm
--
Landis Ragon (dS = dq/T)
Chief Elf in the Toy Factory.
"I've got a little list--I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed--who never would be missed!"
-- Gilbert and Sullivan : "The Mikado"
Don Kresch
>MrGoodSalt said:
>>> Some people say the Bible was written and updated by evil priests who used
>it to control and exploit the ignorant. I say not even the best of men could
>have produced the Bible, let alone evil men.
>
>anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
>> Why? It's easy to write those types of stories. I could write them for you
>right now. All you have to be is a capable fiction writer.
>
>NOT. There is no way a human could write something like the Bible.
And your evidence is?
>First of all, it is beyond what a human is capable of imagining.
And the evidence for that is?
> A human author
>of the Bible would need to be able to imagine what God is like and then come up
>with what such a God would say to humanity and why that God would create the
>world and mankind in the first place.
And the wholly babble implies that--to save people from this mythical
disease called sin which was created by that god.
>Plus there are all sorts of fascinating characterisitics of the Bible. It is
>simple (10 commandments, great commandments)
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
> and yet profound. It is written in
>several different forms (law, history, poetry, revelation, prophecy) by 40
>authors over a couple thousand years and yet it is remarkably consistent and
>coherent with a central theme expressed at multiple levels in a variety of ways
>from beginning to end.
Well, it was put together for that way, although it does have some major
holes in it.
You do know that the wholly babble was created by the RCC in the 4th C CE,
right?
FrankML
>"The Death of Truth" by Dennis McCallum
>"The New Tolerance" by Josh McDowell
>"A Primer on Postmodernism" by Stanley Grenz
Oh yes, a reading list based entirely on subjective personal faith,
specifically, a faith that embraces creationism to science, and faith
to facts, doubt, and reason.
Peter van Velzen
was just woshfull thinking the day that the editor of a Roma Catholic
weekly, fefushed to print Matthew Chapter 5 as part of a discussion
about nuclear weapons.
I then realized that I tryed to used the alleged words of an ancietn Rabbi
to support my own views, and that this really is not a correct way
to discuss subjects with anyone.
So I know think killing is bad because my mother taught me so,
and because a agree with her.
Not because I would blindy follow an ancient text.
So a finally started to . . . .
--
"Think for yourself"
Peter van Velzen
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
http://callisto.worldonline.nl/~pbamvv/petervve.htm
snip the original posting by animeg3282
Al Klein
>mrgoo...@aol.com says...
>>> I have read the Bible and my gut feel is that whatever wrote it was no man.
>(Twilight Zone music, please...)
>a...@harvard.edu (A. O'Reilly) wrote:
>> Of course not, it was several men at several different times. This helps to
>explain the inconsistencies in it... such as the story of the
>crucifixion and resurrection, with the many details which just don't
>jive.
>They do jive. It may APPEAR inconsistent because not all of the descriptions
>are laid out in exact A-Z fashion. Although the Bible generally follows a
>past-present-future timeline there are lots of places in the Bible where it is
>refering to other parts of the timeline. It can get confusing, but it does
>ultimately jive.
So how many people was it who found that the tomb was empty?
What did Judas die of?
--
Al - Unnumbered Atheist #infinity
aklein at villagenet dot com
slo...@my-deja.com
cp1.aol.com>,
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> A large amount of people have converted from
theist belief systems to
> atheism(obvoiusly). Was there some experence
for you when the light bulb went
> off in your head and you said "Maybe the deity
in my belief system doesn't
> exsist?
Visit my site "Leaving Christianity" at
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html
where you will find hundreds of such stories and
much more.
Steve
Francois Tremblay
<38b4f7c3...@news.uswest.net>:
>On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 03:00:50 GMT, mdi...@sympatico.ca (Francois
>Tremblay) wrote:
>
>>anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote in
>><20000221211904...@ng-cp1.aol.com>:
>>
>>
>><snip>
>>>I remember for me it was when I was about 12 or 13, and started
>>>thinking about sex, and sexuality and things like that. I had
>>>some..uh..oddities, which weren't bad objectively, but I had been
>>>taught that God would throw me into hell for..which I thought of as
>>>unjust, causing me to think and become a sorta agnostic type person.
>>
>>
>>Geeze, you can come out of the closet. No need to do so much hemming.
>
>
> You are still an asshole I see.... Some things never change.
Talk about unprovoked agression. I guess some people can't help hating
people who try to help.
--Franc
--
Strong-atheist #1
Objective Thinking web site - www.angelfire.com/pq/fratre
Mindkites magazine - www.mindkites.com
Andrew Lias
MrGoodSalt <mrgoo...@aol.com> wrote:
>anrw...@shell.ncal.verio.com (Andrew Lias) wrote:
>> Come now! If divergent interpretation is the issue, certainly the
>>Protestant Reformation with its hydra-headed formation of new and
>>mutually incompatible creeds would have represented a far deeper crisis.
>
>I can deal with sloppiness between denominations. What concerns me is things
>like postmodernism where Christianity is viewed as just another meta-narrative
>capable of providing personal meaning but not to be confused with any objective
>truth "out there". Oh, and where the only enemy left in the world are those who
>claim to know the truth.
I can understand that. It irritates me to no end when postmodernists
apply their philosophy to the sciences and I can certainly understand why
it would also iritate you when they do the same to your religious beliefs.
I must confess, however, that if this is the reason you prefer
fundamentalism, I'm not sure that I understand why. Every mainstream
denomination that I know of, including more than a few so-called "liberal"
denominations, do not accept the postmodern thesis that Christianity is
just another narrative. As noted, there are serious disagreements in
interpretation, but I dare say that the majority of them adhere to the
notion that Christianity is a true belief and that the Bible is
fundamentally (if, perhaps, not always literally) true. I would also
suggest that one would have a hard time finding many denominations that
would deny the literal truth to such pivotal events as the crucification
and ressurection of Jesus, the immortality of the soul, and the existence
of Heaven. I think that you would have to go out to the real fringe to
find any that didn't. As such, I find the notion that fundamentalism is
the theological antidote to postmodernism to be on somewhat shakey ground.
>You might be interested in the following books which I have not yet added to
>the website listing shown in my signature:
[...]
Well, if you're trying to convince me that postmodernism, in any of its
myriad forms, is crap, you're already preaching to the choir.
--
Please direct all replies to anrwlias AT hotmail.com | Siste viator
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely
powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is
deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
http://www.wco.com/~anrwlias