Christians argue over rapture nonsense
johac
---
Moderate Christians fight rapture with Sunday school
By Andrea HopkinsTue Mar 13, 7:44 PM ET
Real estate agent Dave Eschenbach is an active member of his church, but
he feels uncomfortable around a sizable portion of U.S. Christians --
those who believe they could be transported to heaven at any moment.
Several years ago, Eschenbach had a boss who scheduled meetings around
the rapture, the term for an event that around 20 percent of U.S.
Christians believe is imminent.
"One day he announced to the employees that they probably wouldn't be
there next week because of the rapture," Eschenbach said of his former
boss. "His church had decided that the rapture would happen that week."
The belief has been fueled by the bestselling "Left Behind" novels,
which tell how Christian believers will soon be whisked to heaven --
leaving clothes, dental fillings and eye-glasses behind -- while others
are left behind to fight the anti-Christ in preparation for the return
of Jesus Christ.
Eschenbach is a member of Cincinnati's Episcopal Christ Church
Cathedral, a mainstream Protestant church. When it hosted a Webcast of a
New York conference on rapture theology, he and about 50 others signed
up to participate.
Speakers at the conference, organized by the Episcopal Church's Trinity
Institute, minced no words in their attempt to turn a tide that has
swept much of middle America.
"The rapture is a racket," said Barbara Rossing, whose 2004 book, "The
Rapture Exposed," criticizes rapture theology as unbiblical.
Rossing, a Lutheran minister and teacher at the Lutheran School of
Theology in Chicago, said fiction that focuses on Armageddon -- the
ultimate battle between good and evil that follows rapture -- is popular
in the United States because it plays into American fear.
"The (Iraq) war isn't going well, there is great anxiety about oil, the
economy, the sense that jobs are going overseas," Rossing said in an
interview. "The specter of more events like Hurricane Katrina ... is
terrifying."
"LIBERAL BRAINWASHING"
In Cincinnati, Rev. Canon Joanna Leiserson said members of her Episcopal
congregation started asking about the rapture when "Left Behind" books,
movies and games flooded onto the market.
Before the books, Leiserson said, mainstream Christians paid little
attention to the Book of Revelation, the part of the Bible that mentions
Armageddon.
"The mainstream churches haven't avoided (Revelation) as much as we just
didn't think it was that big of a thing, until the fundamentalist
churches started making a big production out of it," she said.
For Leiserson, Revelation is a story about Jesus confronting the evils
of the Roman Empire. To help counter the rapture tide, she is developing
a Sunday school curriculum to teach kids that Jesus loves everyone and
would not leave anyone behind.
"We were asleep at the switch for too long, and fundamentalists rushed
in to speak to this vacuum. Now we've got to reclaim it," said Rossing,
the Lutheran minister.
Rossing called on fellow moderates to write their own novels about God's
love -- though she admits that story might not sell as well as the
violent plot of the "Left Behind" books, which have sold more than 43
million copies.
Tim LaHaye, co-author of the "Left Behind" series, said Americans like
his books not because of the violence, but because they believe in a
literal interpretation of the Bible.
"Surprisingly enough with all the liberal brainwashing they've got in
public education, most people that claim to be Christians have a
tendency to believe the Bible," LaHaye said in an interview.
Moderate Christians will never come up with a story that can compare, he
said.
"They are just liberal, socialists, really, and they don't believe the
Bible," LaHaye said. "What they probably will come up with is a
plausible explanation from their liberal standpoint to satisfy their
adherents that are reading our series and liked it. But it will be
inferior because the story will be inferior."
The success of the graphic novels is just one indication of the strength
of belief in rapture, Armageddon, and the subsequent second coming of
Jesus Christ. A 2006 survey for the Pew Forum on Religion and Public
Life found 79 percent of American Christians believe in the second
coming, with 20 percent believing it will happen in their lifetime.
Skeptical Christians at the Cincinnati conference said they don't always
know how to respond when confronted by those who swear the rapture is
imminent.
"Because one of our goals is to be very tolerant, it is sometimes hard
to go to the public. There is limited means to get the message out,"
said Shirley Wang.
Christian moderates also tend to view their fundamentalist cousins with
an indulgent wink, more comfortable joking about the rapture than trying
to change their minds.
Rossing said her students once left piles of clothes on their chairs to
make her think they'd been raptured.
A popular bumper sticker reads "In case of Rapture, this car will be
unmanned." Skeptics counter with an irreverent "Come the Rapture, can I
have your car?"
---
http://tinyurl.com/ytu92h
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
Mark K. Bilbo
> Moderate Christians will never come up with a story that can compare, he
> said.
A story.
Yup.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
Geoff
news:jhachmann-E5DAA...@news.giganews.com...
> "The rapture is a racket," said Barbara Rossing, whose 2004 book, "The
> Rapture Exposed," criticizes rapture theology as unbiblical.
>
> Rossing, a Lutheran minister and teacher at the Lutheran School of
> Theology in Chicago, said fiction that focuses on Armageddon -- the
> ultimate battle between good and evil that follows rapture -- is popular
> in the United States because it plays into American fear.
She's like the automobile dealer complaining about the ethics of the used
car salesman.
johac
"Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
True, but I think that the article shows that there are degrees of
lunacy.
johac
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:24:36 -0700, johac wrote:
>
> > Moderate Christians will never come up with a story that can compare, he
> > said.
>
> A story.
>
> Yup.
Yeah. A Fish story. Oh wait, that was Jonah!
Geoff
news:jhachmann-13418...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <l72dnamKq-peb2rY...@giganews.com>,
> "Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> "johac" <jhac...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:jhachmann-E5DAA...@news.giganews.com...
>>
>> > "The rapture is a racket," said Barbara Rossing, whose 2004 book, "The
>> > Rapture Exposed," criticizes rapture theology as unbiblical.
>> >
>> > Rossing, a Lutheran minister and teacher at the Lutheran School of
>> > Theology in Chicago, said fiction that focuses on Armageddon -- the
>> > ultimate battle between good and evil that follows rapture -- is
>> > popular
>> > in the United States because it plays into American fear.
>>
>> She's like the automobile dealer complaining about the ethics of the used
>> car salesman.
>
> True, but I think that the article shows that there are degrees of
> lunacy.
Didn't that come across in the metaphor?
Pangur Ban
> "LIBERAL BRAINWASHING"
> ---
> http://tinyurl.com/ytu92h
I bought the first one published - some light reading I thought during
lunch. About 2 seconds into the book and I walked over to the nearest
trashcan and dumped it. For a bibliophile - it wasn't at all hard to
do. :-)
--
Pangur Ban
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a
well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways ......totally
worn-out..... shouting, 'Yeehaw.....what a ride!'"
johac
Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote:
I didn't read it but from what I've heard about the series, I can
thoroughly understand your action. :-)
Apparently there's a movie out which I haven't seen either.
johac
"Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
Yes but I don't think that car dealers used or new are necessarily
insane. Both are out to make a buck and both may resort to sly tactics
to get you to buy something that you don't want or don't need. However,
on the ethical sale, the dealer is usually several log factors above the
used car salesman.
Pangur Ban
Haven't read the series; haven't seen the movie; haven't seen Mel
Gibson's production - and don't intend to waste my time on any of the
three.In fact, haven't heard a single person mention any of the three.
Must not be making that big of an impact in my small community.
--
Pangur Ban
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing" Edmund Burke
Geoff
>> >> She's like the automobile dealer complaining about the ethics of the
>> >> used
>> >> car salesman.
>> >
>> > True, but I think that the article shows that there are degrees of
>> > lunacy.
>>
>> Didn't that come across in the metaphor?
>
> Yes but I don't think that car dealers used or new are necessarily
> insane.
The metaphor is the irrationality of the theist versus the ethics of the car
dealers.
> Both are out to make a buck and both may resort to sly tactics
> to get you to buy something that you don't want or don't need. However,
> on the ethical sale, the dealer is usually several log factors above the
> used car salesman.
Likewise, IMHO the irrationality of the fundie is magnitudes of order above
your run-of-the-mill Episcopalian.
johac
Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote:
It's funny they claim to have sold millions of books and I don't know
anyone who has claimed to have read them either. And that includes my
religious friends.
I'm finallly getting around to Reading Jared Diamond's "Collapse". It
deals with a different kind of end times.
johac
"Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
> "johac" <jhac...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:jhachmann-2B7E1...@news.giganews.com...
>
> >> >> She's like the automobile dealer complaining about the ethics of the
> >> >> used
> >> >> car salesman.
> >> >
> >> > True, but I think that the article shows that there are degrees of
> >> > lunacy.
> >>
> >> Didn't that come across in the metaphor?
> >
> > Yes but I don't think that car dealers used or new are necessarily
> > insane.
>
> The metaphor is the irrationality of the theist versus the ethics of the car
> dealers.
OK.
>
> > Both are out to make a buck and both may resort to sly tactics
> > to get you to buy something that you don't want or don't need. However,
> > on the ethical sale, the dealer is usually several log factors above the
> > used car salesman.
>
> Likewise, IMHO the irrationality of the fundie is magnitudes of order above
> your run-of-the-mill Episcopalian.
Agreed.
Geoff
> I'm finallly getting around to Reading Jared Diamond's "Collapse". It
> deals with a different kind of end times.
Great book! "Guns, Germs, and Steel" is great too but I'm sure you already
knew that.
I'm reading (still!) "Team of Rivals" about Lincoln's cabinet.
Pangur Ban
Tell me more. ... as I am unemployed, I have even more time for
reading....
--
Pangur Ban - funter
Free Lunch
Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote in
<mn.7cae7d733...@att.net>:
The book covers a number of different relatively isolated societies and
what happened to them when an ecological calamity (self-inflicted or
not) hit their society. Diamond is a good storyteller and manages to
show us what lessons can apply without hitting us over the head with it.
stumper
> In article <GsOdnd6tHOh302TY...@giganews.com>,
> "Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> "johac" <jhac...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:jhachmann-2B7E1...@news.giganews.com...
>>
>>>>>> She's like the automobile dealer complaining about the ethics of the
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> car salesman.
>>>>> True, but I think that the article shows that there are degrees of
>>>>> lunacy.
>>>> Didn't that come across in the metaphor?
>>> Yes but I don't think that car dealers used or new are necessarily
>>> insane.
>> The metaphor is the irrationality of the theist versus the ethics of the car
>> dealers.
>
> OK.
>>> Both are out to make a buck and both may resort to sly tactics
>>> to get you to buy something that you don't want or don't need. However,
>>> on the ethical sale, the dealer is usually several log factors above the
>>> used car salesman.
>> Likewise, IMHO the irrationality of the fundie is magnitudes of order above
>> your run-of-the-mill Episcopalian.
>
> Agreed.
You sound afraid.
--
~Stumper
Thandarr
> --
> John #1782
>
> "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
> white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
>
> - Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
You mean it's bullshit? Aw, shit! It sounded like such a good idea.
We wake up one morning and all the fundies are gone.
Thandarr
"In Case of Rapture, Can I Have Your Car?
johac
stumper <stu...@newvessel.com> wrote:
Of what? Not the rapture.
Mark K. Bilbo
> The rapture craziness is too much for even some believers.
Funny thing about the "rapture." The bible is so clear on the matter, it
wasn't until the 19th century somebody discovered the concept...
johac
Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote:
He goes into the reason why various societies have collapsed. The ones
on Easter Island and other islands in the Pacific, the Anasazi in the
American South West, the Norse settlers in Greenland and several others.
He looks at all of the factors including climate and climate change,
overexploitation of natural resources, population growth, war, trade
etc. He tries to use these as models for what might happen to our
civilization too.
He also wrote "Guns, Germs, and Steel" which dealt with why some
civilizations flourish and others perish.
For more about "Collapse":
http://www.grist.org/advice/books/2005/02/08/kavanagh-collapse/
Michael Gray
<jhac...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-05526...@news.giganews.com>
Both are also available as audio books.
--
Michael Gray
<gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
- Refer: <pan.2007.03.16....@com.mkbilbo>
>On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:24:36 -0700, johac wrote:
>
>> The rapture craziness is too much for even some believers.
>
>Funny thing about the "rapture." The bible is so clear on the matter, it
>wasn't until the 19th century somebody discovered the concept...
About the same time that they came to the conclusion that it was wrong
about slavery?
--
Pangur Ban
Sounds good - I'll check Amazon for a used copy! Thanks!
--
Pangur Ban
Nemo repente fuit turpissimus.
Pangur Ban
> For more about "Collapse":
> http://www.grist.org/advice/books/2005/02/08/kavanagh-collapse/
Thanks!
stumper
As if you can hear anything!
--
~Stumper
stumper
Yawn.
--
~Stumper
Neil Kelsey
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:37:05 -0700, johac<jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> - Refer: <jhachmann-055261.22370515032...@news.giganews.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article <mn.7cae7d73334db5c3.64...@att.net>,> >> > In article <mn.797d7d7379c91beb.64...@att.net>,> >> >>> In article <mn.75017d7343803eb6.64...@att.net>,
Love those books. The Third Chimpanzee is also worth reading. Diamond
also hosted a three hour series on "Guns, Germs, and Steel" which
makes the rounds on PBS.
Mark K. Bilbo
Have they?
stumper
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:48:49 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:23:57 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
>> <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
>> - Refer: <pan.2007.03.16....@com.mkbilbo>
>>> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:24:36 -0700, johac wrote:
>>>
>>>> The rapture craziness is too much for even some believers.
>>> Funny thing about the "rapture." The bible is so clear on the matter, it
>>> wasn't until the 19th century somebody discovered the concept...
>> About the same time that they came to the conclusion that it was wrong
>> about slavery?
>
> Have they?
>
Yawn.
--
~Stumper
Robibnikoff
snip
>> >> I bought the first one published - some light reading I thought during
>> >> lunch. About 2 seconds into the book and I walked over to the nearest
>> >> trashcan and dumped it. For a bibliophile - it wasn't at all hard to
>> >> do. :-)
>>
>> > I didn't read it but from what I've heard about the series, I can
>> > thoroughly understand your action. :-)
>>
>> > Apparently there's a movie out which I haven't seen either.
>>
>> Haven't read the series; haven't seen the movie; haven't seen Mel
>> Gibson's production - and don't intend to waste my time on any of the
>> three.In fact, haven't heard a single person mention any of the three.
>> Must not be making that big of an impact in my small community.
>
> It's funny they claim to have sold millions of books and I don't know
> anyone who has claimed to have read them either. And that includes my
> religious friends.
The only really religious people I know are my husband's sisters and none of
them read anything more challenging than supermarket circulars with the
exception of one who is addicted to softcore porno, whoops, I mean "romance
novels" ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
tirebiter
> > "Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >> "johac" <jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> >>news:jhachmann-2B7E1...@news.giganews.com...
>
> >>>>>> She's like the automobile dealer complaining about the ethics of the
> >>>>>> used
> >>>>>> car salesman.
> >>>>> True, but I think that the article shows that there are degrees of
> >>>>> lunacy.
> >>>> Didn't that come across in the metaphor?
> >>> Yes but I don't think that car dealers used or new are necessarily
> >>> insane.
> >> The metaphor is the irrationality of the theist versus the ethics of the car
> >> dealers.
>
> > OK.
> >>> Both are out to make a buck and both may resort to sly tactics
> >>> to get you to buy something that you don't want or don't need. However,
> >>> on the ethical sale, the dealer is usually several log factors above the
> >>> used car salesman.
> >> Likewise, IMHO the irrationality of the fundie is magnitudes of order above
> >> your run-of-the-mill Episcopalian.
>
> > Agreed.
>
> You sound afraid.
>
> --
> ~Stumper
There is plenty of reason to be afraid. If these lunatics stayed in
their holes and left everybody else alone it would be one thing. This
story shows how they inflict their special blend of delusion on
friends, family and employees.
There have been recent threads here where christians don't feel that
conservation is necessary because god will replenish the Earth's
resources. Many people's careers have been permanently damaged
because they don't go to the "optional" prayer meetings that their
boss conducts every day. Laws are passed all the time that legislate
"morality". We are dangerously close to having our own constitution
altered to conform with religious dogma.
You can't argue rationally with these people. They have it rigged
that any opposition is part of the prophesy and it convinces them even
more that they are right.
Yes, so I for one am afraid of how my country and my planet is going
to be ruined by crazy people like this.
---
a.a. #2273
stumper
It has been worse for a long time.
IMHO it would not help
to laugh at deluded people here.
There must be better ways.
--
~Stumper
Free Lunch
>After serious thinking Free Lunch wrote :
>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:58:46 -0600, in alt.atheism
>> Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote in
>> <mn.7cae7d733...@att.net>:
>>> johac explained :
...
>>>> I'm finallly getting around to Reading Jared Diamond's "Collapse". It
>>>> deals with a different kind of end times.
>>>
>>> Tell me more. ... as I am unemployed, I have even more time for
>>> reading....
>
>> The book covers a number of different relatively isolated societies and
>> what happened to them when an ecological calamity (self-inflicted or
>> not) hit their society. Diamond is a good storyteller and manages to
>> show us what lessons can apply without hitting us over the head with it.
>
>Sounds good - I'll check Amazon for a used copy! Thanks!
The book is about 18 months old.
I must also recommend, in addition to Amazon used and other wonderful
used book stores, two things: public libraries and public library
friends book sales. For the second, the books may be eclectic, but the
price is wonderful. My local branch (Sequoyah Branch, apparently a very
popular name for a branch library) friends has a clearance sale that
allows me to fill a grocery bag for $3.00. I need new bookshelves.
Michael Gray
<gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
- Refer: <pan.2007.03.16....@com.mkbilbo>
>On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:48:49 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:23:57 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
>> <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
>> - Refer: <pan.2007.03.16....@com.mkbilbo>
>>>On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:24:36 -0700, johac wrote:
>>>
>>>> The rapture craziness is too much for even some believers.
>>>
>>>Funny thing about the "rapture." The bible is so clear on the matter, it
>>>wasn't until the 19th century somebody discovered the concept...
>>
>> About the same time that they came to the conclusion that it was wrong
>> about slavery?
>
>Have they?
No.
It was an act of the purest optimism on my part.
--
Pangur Ban
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:37:58 -0600, in alt.atheism
> Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote in
> <mn.818d7d737...@att.net>:
>> After serious thinking Free Lunch wrote :
>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:58:46 -0600, in alt.atheism
>>> Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote in
>>> <mn.7cae7d733...@att.net>:
>>>> johac explained :
> ...
>>>>> I'm finallly getting around to Reading Jared Diamond's "Collapse". It
>>>>> deals with a different kind of end times.
>>>>
>>>> Tell me more. ... as I am unemployed, I have even more time for
>>>> reading....
>>
>>> The book covers a number of different relatively isolated societies and
>>> what happened to them when an ecological calamity (self-inflicted or
>>> not) hit their society. Diamond is a good storyteller and manages to
>>> show us what lessons can apply without hitting us over the head with it.
>>
>> Sounds good - I'll check Amazon for a used copy! Thanks!
> The book is about 18 months old.
> I must also recommend, in addition to Amazon used and other wonderful
> used book stores, two things: public libraries and public library
> friends book sales.
Frankly, I have more books in my home library than our village library!
I am donating my collection to them ...eventually ... I think they'll
have to double the size of the building! Tells you how small the
village is - not how big my library is! lol
>For the second, the books may be eclectic, but the
> price is wonderful. My local branch (Sequoyah Branch, apparently a very
> popular name for a branch library) friends has a clearance sale that
> allows me to fill a grocery bag for $3.00. I need new bookshelves.
I do love to reread my books - put them on a shelf for a year or two
and they become for the most part a "new" read. Some favorites I read
over and over ... and find something new every time.
--
Pangur Ban
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a
well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways ......totally
worn-out..... shouting, 'Yeehaw.....what a ride!'"
johac
johac
Michael Gray <mike...@newsguy.com> wrote:
That's how I got "Guns, Germs, and Steel".
snex
>
> Skeptical Christians at the Cincinnati conference said they don't always
> know how to respond when confronted by those who swear the rapture is
> imminent.
>
> "Because one of our goals is to be very tolerant, it is sometimes hard
> to go to the public. There is limited means to get the message out,"
> said Shirley Wang.
>
> Christian moderates also tend to view their fundamentalist cousins with
> an indulgent wink, more comfortable joking about the rapture than trying
> to change their minds.
straight from the horse's mouth that sam harris is correct.
Michael Gray
wrote:
- Refer: <vi8mv2lkmghirlltu...@4ax.com>
>On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:37:58 -0600, in alt.atheism
>Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote in
><mn.818d7d737...@att.net>:
>>After serious thinking Free Lunch wrote :
>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:58:46 -0600, in alt.atheism
>>> Pangur Ban <Whistl...@att.net> wrote in
>>> <mn.7cae7d733...@att.net>:
>>>> johac explained :
>
>...
>
>>>>> I'm finallly getting around to Reading Jared Diamond's "Collapse". It
>>>>> deals with a different kind of end times.
>>>>
>>>> Tell me more. ... as I am unemployed, I have even more time for
>>>> reading....
>>
>>> The book covers a number of different relatively isolated societies and
>>> what happened to them when an ecological calamity (self-inflicted or
>>> not) hit their society. Diamond is a good storyteller and manages to
>>> show us what lessons can apply without hitting us over the head with it.
>>
>>Sounds good - I'll check Amazon for a used copy! Thanks!
>
>The book is about 18 months old.
It is also available as an audio book...
--