Morality cont...
Skypher
Robibnikoff
>
>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Christians don't seem to have a problem with it.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
Graham Kennedy
> In article <20031208132709...@mb-m12.aol.com>, Skypher says...
>
>>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
>
>
> Christians don't seem to have a problem with it.
LOL!!!!! :-)
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
Graham Kennedy
> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Depends on the lie and the circumstances.
"Darling, your finger painting looks great!" is acceptable
to your young son or daughter, even if it looks terrible.
In fact any other answer would be horribly wrong, IMHO.
But "I did NOT have sex with that woman!" was a despicable
lie, whatever games you play with definitions afterwards
to try and make it true.
Skypher
From: Robibnikoff nos...@newsranger.com
Date: 12/8/2003 10:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <yz3Bb.34833$cJ5....@www.newsranger.com>
In article <20031208132709...@mb-m12.aol.com>, Skypher says...
>
>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Christians don't seem to have a problem with it.
Skypher replies :
Every research study that I have read on lying concludes that everyone at some
point in time has told a lie...actually many lies...and these same people
believe that it's wrong.
Why do people lie?
Skypher
"Darling, your finger painting looks great!" is acceptable
to your young son or daughter, even if it looks terrible.
In fact any other answer would be horribly wrong, IMHO.
Skypher replies:
If you were going to tell the truth to your young son or daughter about their
finger painting without hurting their feelings, how would you do it?
Graham Kennedy
I doubt there is any way to do it. At best, you could suggest
improvements. "That's great dear! Now to make the next one
even *better*, why don't you..."
But kids are smart about stuff like this. Be as positive as
you like, they're likely as not thinking "Failed. I did my
best, and it's not good enough."
Robibnikoff
Keep in mind that your opinion of your kid's fingerpainting is just that - an
opinion.
Robibnikoff
So?
>Why do people lie?
Because they can often get away with it, probably.
For the record, I do think lying is wrong.
dr...@lost.net
wrote:
>Skypher wrote:
>
>> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
>
>Depends on the lie and the circumstances.
>
>"Darling, your finger painting looks great!" is acceptable
>to your young son or daughter, even if it looks terrible.
>In fact any other answer would be horribly wrong, IMHO.
>
>But "I did NOT have sex with that woman!" was a despicable
>lie, whatever games you play with definitions afterwards
>to try and make it true.
How about "Do these pants make me look fat"? The only way out is
fainting, and going to the hospital. In this case the question is't a
a question, but a well designed lie to set a trap.
It's about the same mechanism they used to hang Clinton: no answer
would save him. What if he said "If you mean a blow job is sex, then
YES!! I DID - it felt GOOOOD, won't result in an abortion, and I was
on my coffee break!! Geeeesh, find something important, you busybody
sack of shit!!" They had already investigated him and Hillary up,
down, sideways, found nothing, and had to sink to that. See? The truth
hurts, too. Too bad he didn't say it. What would you do, and don't
lie.
Lying is wrong, and putting a person in that position is very, very
bad.
drift
Kate
>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
It's not inherently wrong, but it does tend to create problems if you
want people to take what you say seriously.
Obviously everyone lies because it is just too difficult to try to
always tell the complete truth about everything. Language is too
limited and so is our time to communicate.
What is wrong is to hurt someone by misleading them about something
they care about and you know they care about it.
That doesn't just mean words, it could be actions, it could be
something you didn't say or something you didn't follow up on.
Graham Kennedy
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:53:29 +0000, Graham Kennedy <gra...@ditl.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Skypher wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
>>
>>Depends on the lie and the circumstances.
>>
>>"Darling, your finger painting looks great!" is acceptable
>>to your young son or daughter, even if it looks terrible.
>>In fact any other answer would be horribly wrong, IMHO.
>>
>>But "I did NOT have sex with that woman!" was a despicable
>>lie, whatever games you play with definitions afterwards
>>to try and make it true.
>
>
>
> How about "Do these pants make me look fat"? The only way out is
> fainting, and going to the hospital. In this case the question is't a
> a question, but a well designed lie to set a trap.
That's an interesting one. On the surface, the obvious thing to
do is lie and say no (I'm assuming that the truth is indeed yes).
But you could argue that if she then goes out and gets embarrassed
because of it, you would have caused her that harm by lying. So
isn't it better to be honest?
> It's about the same mechanism they used to hang Clinton: no answer
> would save him. What if he said "If you mean a blow job is sex, then
> YES!! I DID - it felt GOOOOD, won't result in an abortion, and I was
> on my coffee break!! Geeeesh, find something important, you busybody
> sack of shit!!" They had already investigated him and Hillary up,
> down, sideways, found nothing, and had to sink to that. See? The truth
> hurts, too. Too bad he didn't say it. What would you do, and don't
> lie.
I would have either said "mind your own business" right from
the start and never deviated from that, or I would have told
the honest truth right from the start and then took the moral
high ground of "it's over, it doesn't affect my job and never
did, now why don't we all get back to running the country?"
The Republicans were able to dig for damaging secrets so long
and hard only because there was indeed one to be found; if you
admit it up front and then move on, there's not much more that
they would be able to do.
Of course, if I were married I wouldn't have cheated on my wife
in the first place so the problem wouldn't arise.
Skypher
That's an interesting one. On the surface, the obvious thing to
do is lie and say no (I'm assuming that the truth is indeed yes).
But you could argue that if she then goes out and gets embarrassed
because of it, you would have caused her that harm by lying. So
isn't it better to be honest?
Skypher replies :
You could make her answer her own question. Start by asking her to define fat.
Graham Kennedy
Maybe. I suspect it would all end in tears though.
Sometimes I'm almost glad women don't tend to like
me much. It's an easier life... :-)
Therion Ware
On 08 Dec 2003 18:27:09 GMT in alt.atheism, Skypher (sky...@aol.com
(Skypher)) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
I dunno about most atheists, but this one thinks "It depends". Now and
again a to tell a lie might be more moral than to tell the truth, as
you might discover next time the SS ask you where the jews are hiding.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
AngryJohn
>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
If I told the truth I would be lying.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
AngryJohn
You do not have much experience with the fairer sex.
Martin Crisp
(in message <20031208135230...@mb-m12.aol.com>):
[snip rest]
> Why do people lie?
Because they believe it to be in their (or someone else's) best
interests at the time.
What do you include in 'lie' btw? Ever wear platform shoes (lying
about your height?), eye makeup (lying about your looks?),
lipstick (lying about your lip shape/colour?), clothes that hide
the less deirable, or accentuate the more desirable parts of your
anatomy (lying about your looks?)
Total honesty is impossible.
Have Fun
Martin
--
aa #1792
Almost always SMASHed
Martin Crisp
(in message <20031208132709...@mb-m12.aol.com>):
> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
In most circumstances, yes. [This atheist, at least]
Sometimes other factors are more important than being truthful
(e.g. the child's fingerpainting or the Jews in hiding others
mentioned).
dr...@lost.net
wrote:
>dr...@lost.net wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:53:29 +0000, Graham Kennedy <gra...@ditl.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Skypher wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
>>>
>>>Depends on the lie and the circumstances.
>>>
>>>"Darling, your finger painting looks great!" is acceptable
>>>to your young son or daughter, even if it looks terrible.
>>>In fact any other answer would be horribly wrong, IMHO.
>>>
>>>But "I did NOT have sex with that woman!" was a despicable
>>>lie, whatever games you play with definitions afterwards
>>>to try and make it true.
>>
>>
>>
>> How about "Do these pants make me look fat"? The only way out is
>> fainting, and going to the hospital. In this case the question is't a
>> a question, but a well designed lie to set a trap.
>
>That's an interesting one. On the surface, the obvious thing to
>do is lie and say no (I'm assuming that the truth is indeed yes).
>But you could argue that if she then goes out and gets embarrassed
>because of it, you would have caused her that harm by lying. So
>isn't it better to be honest?
Depends if it's an honest question or not. In my example it isn't. It
can be skewed a lot off the seemingly intended topic; a trigger into a
complete interrogation. And by the time you hear the question all the
responses have been planned for, for years, and you have had 10
seconds to come up with an answer, which is too late, which
automatically makes it a lie. See how it works now?
>
>> It's about the same mechanism they used to hang Clinton: no answer
>> would save him. What if he said "If you mean a blow job is sex, then
>> YES!! I DID - it felt GOOOOD, won't result in an abortion, and I was
>> on my coffee break!! Geeeesh, find something important, you busybody
>> sack of shit!!" They had already investigated him and Hillary up,
>> down, sideways, found nothing, and had to sink to that. See? The truth
>> hurts, too. Too bad he didn't say it. What would you do, and don't
>> lie.
>
>I would have either said "mind your own business" right from
>the start and never deviated from that, or I would have told
>the honest truth right from the start and then took the moral
>high ground of "it's over, it doesn't affect my job and never
>did, now why don't we all get back to running the country?"
>The Republicans were able to dig for damaging secrets so long
>and hard only because there was indeed one to be found; if you
>admit it up front and then move on, there's not much more that
>they would be able to do.
>
>Of course, if I were married I wouldn't have cheated on my wife
>in the first place so the problem wouldn't arise.
Actually, you're right, "mind your own business" is out, being under
oath. But Clinton must have calculated that the truth would hurt him
more, don't criticize him for thinking of himself, he did have to stay
alive to continue the government's business. Who knows what was
planned if he DID tell the truth!!
drift
Martin Thomas
>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
In general, lies generate a lot of misery. It is a heck of a lot
of work to keep track of past lies - and then having to speak
fast to plug any gaps in the story while keeping a poker face.
As the years go by I lie less and less, which is good for me and
other people.
But I don't have a cast iron law about it: I once got a violent
person to leave the building I was in by lying to him. I felt so
good about that, that when I ran into him a couple of hours
later, by which time he realised I had lied to him, he didn't do
much more than mumble his complaints and wander off. If I had
felt bad about lying, I would have been in far more danger.
The worse lies of all when, after lots of repetition, people end
up believing their own lies.
-
Martin Thomas
mart...@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
Michelle Malkin
>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Did you when you were an atheist, Jennifer? You must have an
awfully short memory.
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Hands that work are better than mouths that pray -
Robert Ingersoll
****************************************************
socode
> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Does _anyone_ believe lying to be wrong?
What if a lie would stop a greater harm? [i.e.
what should you say when asked e.g. "Does my
bum look big in this?" ;-)
socode
Christopher A. Lee
We all lie sometimes: "Do you like my new hairstyle, dear?".
>socode
Robibnikoff
>
>On 08 Dec 2003 22:14:59 GMT, sky...@aol.com (Skypher) wrote:
>
>>Graham Kennedy wrote :
>>That's an interesting one. On the surface, the obvious thing to
>>do is lie and say no (I'm assuming that the truth is indeed yes).
>>But you could argue that if she then goes out and gets embarrassed
>>because of it, you would have caused her that harm by lying. So
>>isn't it better to be honest?
>>
>>Skypher replies :
>>You could make her answer her own question. Start by asking her to define fat.
>
>
>You do not have much experience with the fairer sex.
LOL - Ouch, you ain't kidding.
I could just imagine the reaction:
"Honey, do I look fat?"
"Um, how would you define "fat"?"
"WHAT?!?!?!?!"
Robibnikoff
Hoo boy, that would go over like a lead balloon.
Mark K. Bilbo
> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Depends on the situation.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
http://nullusfides.blogspot.com/
MarkA
It's not a simple yes/no question. There is value in telling the truth
(establishes trustworthiness, etc); there is value in lying. In each
situation, you have to decide where the trade-off lies.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
Douglas Berry
some sky...@aol.com (Skypher) came forth and told this tale in
alt.atheism
>Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Depends.
When the lie is to save your life, or the life of another, then it
can't be wrong.
If the lie is designed to hurt, or gain an unfair advantage, the it is
wrong.
I'm applying to be on Survivor. If I make it, I know that lying will
be a part of the game. It's just a fact. What will be difficult for
me is balancing my desire to win the million dollars against my desire
to uphold my personal sense of honor. To paraphrase the Bible.. what
good is ot to win the whole game is I lose my self respect?
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
MarkA
Sounds like something Bill Clinton would say.
MarkA
> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Inflicting unnecessary pain on someone is wrong. Sometimes you can avoid
that by telling a "white lie". Sometimes it is better to keep silent.
Sometimes you have to tell the truth, even if it hurts, to avoid even
greater suffering later on.
Maverick
> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Completely wrong all the time, or more or less wrong than a possible
alternative, in different situations?
AngryJohn
wrote:
I never could get by on this question with my ex. Not that she ever
looked fat either. She never believed me no matter what I said. I
can honestly say I never thought she looked fat, even at 9 months
pregnant, even after having two kids, the thought just never entered
my brain. I think the only time she ever accepted an answer was the
one time I was as sarcastic as i could be.
Her: "Honey do these jeans make me look fat?"
Me: "Only if you can imagine a 300 pound water buffalo wearing
spandex."
Her: "Finally you are being honest. But I'm going to wear them
anyways because they are comfortable."
That had to be one of the rare occasions she actually wore what she
had on when she asked me the question. I will never figure out women.
Never, never, never..............
Enkidu
> Skypher wrote:
>
>> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
>
>
> "Darling, your finger painting looks great!" is acceptable
> to your young son or daughter, even if it looks terrible.
> In fact any other answer would be horribly wrong, IMHO.
>
> But "I did NOT have sex with that woman!" was a despicable
> lie, whatever games you play with definitions afterwards
> to try and make it true.
Depends on the time, place, people. Some would claim that protecting a
young woman's reputation worth a lie. In fact, many young women deplore men
for NOT keeping such an event secret.
In Clinton's case, it was a lie that should not have been told.
--
Enkidu
hhe1...@sneakemail.com
PGP KeyID 0xC5FEABDF
-----
Of all things, good sense is the most fairly distributed: everyone
thinks he is so well supplied with it that even those who are the
hardest to satisfy in every other respect never desire more of it than
they already have.
René Descartes, Discours de la Méthode. 1637.
Brian E. Clark
> You could make her answer her own question. Start by asking
> her to define fat.
That would be...indelicate, to say the least. I imagine the result would
involve meat cleavers and the noise of thunderstorms and the
denunciation of all of my male ancestors.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Brian E. Clark
> i.e. what should you say when asked e.g. "Does my
> bum look big in this?" ;-)
The reply is, "You look slender as a lilly's arching stem, my love."
Alan Hobson
> Do atheists believe lying to be wrong?
Lying about gods is wrong.
-Alan
aa#1608 BAAWA
Brian E. Clark
> We all lie sometimes: "Do you like my new hairstyle, dear?".
Answer to questions like that follow a protocol. :) If my wife asks, "Is
that girl prettier than I am?" both she and I know how I will answer, no
matter how bonny the lass the in question.