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What happens after death?
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casey
Jul 8, 2012, 7:13:42 PM7/8/12
to
What happens after we die can be answered if we
understand what we are before we die.
So we don't have to wait until we die to answer
the question. And even if we "found ourselves in
heaven or hell" after death it wouldn't prove
life after death only that whatever appeared in
heaven or hell had the memory of someone who
once lived. So you will not find out for sure
if you (the now you in heaven or hell) really
existed once before after death.
All the evidence is that we are a brain process.
The brain creates a model of its environment and
that includes a model of itself both as a physical
entity and as a process creating that model.
The brain is continually changing so what is it
that continues while the brain is intact that can
be called the Self.
In a dreamless sleep or coma the Self is "turned off".
When the brain awakes the Self returns once again.
At least the Self experiences itself as returning
again because it has a episodic memory system.
That Self can access memories of previous brain states
which included itself as being present.
In reality you only experience yourself as the same
person throughout your life because at any give time
you have access to a episodic memory. Without it
you would have to say you have just "woken up" which
is exactly what subjects with certain brain damage
do say. You would deny that you existed as an awake
person 10 minutes ago when in fact you did exist as
an awake person.
It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
understand what we are before we die.
So we don't have to wait until we die to answer
the question. And even if we "found ourselves in
heaven or hell" after death it wouldn't prove
life after death only that whatever appeared in
heaven or hell had the memory of someone who
once lived. So you will not find out for sure
if you (the now you in heaven or hell) really
existed once before after death.
All the evidence is that we are a brain process.
The brain creates a model of its environment and
that includes a model of itself both as a physical
entity and as a process creating that model.
The brain is continually changing so what is it
that continues while the brain is intact that can
be called the Self.
In a dreamless sleep or coma the Self is "turned off".
When the brain awakes the Self returns once again.
At least the Self experiences itself as returning
again because it has a episodic memory system.
That Self can access memories of previous brain states
which included itself as being present.
In reality you only experience yourself as the same
person throughout your life because at any give time
you have access to a episodic memory. Without it
you would have to say you have just "woken up" which
is exactly what subjects with certain brain damage
do say. You would deny that you existed as an awake
person 10 minutes ago when in fact you did exist as
an awake person.
It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
kni...@baawa.com
Jul 8, 2012, 9:34:15 PM7/8/12
to
On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
<jgkj...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
>that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
No more Brownies for you.
<jgkj...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
>that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
BroilJAB
Jul 8, 2012, 10:23:40 PM7/8/12
to
What happens at death? Just exactly
what everyone knows shall happen:
Judgment for your life
what everyone knows shall happen:
Judgment for your life
Jason
Jul 8, 2012, 10:51:58 PM7/8/12
to
spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
hell.
See John 3:16
Mittler Romney
Jul 8, 2012, 11:00:10 PM7/8/12
to
casey <jgkj...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>What happens after we die can be answered if we
>understand what we are before we die.
You rot and return to ambient temp. Duh. Only shitting insane cultists
>What happens after we die can be answered if we
>understand what we are before we die.
think otherwise.
---
Email address: k.chel...@yahoo.com http://www.skeptictank.org/
And a varmint will not quit, ever.
Jope
Jul 9, 2012, 1:12:45 AM7/9/12
to
body.
And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
his very own body lying in bed.
The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
atheist ,eternal torments await.
Neil Kelsey
Jul 9, 2012, 1:21:07 AM7/9/12
to
Virgil
Jul 9, 2012, 1:44:01 AM7/9/12
to
In article
<a2537159-cdbf-44be...@h10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Until science has verified the existence of a 'soul' whose life is
independent of that of the body, it is merely myth that
(1) anyone has anything like a soul at all, and
(2) that such a soul could survive the death of the body in which it
allegedly resides.
--
<a2537159-cdbf-44be...@h10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
independent of that of the body, it is merely myth that
(1) anyone has anything like a soul at all, and
(2) that such a soul could survive the death of the body in which it
allegedly resides.
--
casey
Jul 9, 2012, 1:52:50 AM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 3:12 pm, Jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
demonstrations of out of body events.
> [...]
> I know of somebody who while doing a breathing exercise
> got out of his body.
> And while standing at an elevated position inside the
> room , he saw his very own body lying in bed.
That is an illusion. There has never been any verifiable
> got out of his body.
> And while standing at an elevated position inside the
> room , he saw his very own body lying in bed.
demonstrations of out of body events.
casey
Jul 9, 2012, 1:58:04 AM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> >understand what we are before we die.
>
> You rot and return to ambient temp.
That is what we observe happens to the body.
> >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> >understand what we are before we die.
>
> You rot and return to ambient temp.
However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
BroilJAB
Jul 9, 2012, 3:57:46 AM7/9/12
to
Jope Virgil said,
The atheist chooses his final estate.
He is given free will to choose.
Btw, every Nym in this thread, so
far, is VIRGIL, except for Jason and me.
Notice, Jason, that 'Virgil' just cannot
help himself: when he concocts a nym
(such as Jope here), he is unable to
inject Realism and an apparently stable
personality into (the Nym's) postings.
The soul is the real you,the body is
just a shell .If you die as an
atheist ,eternal torments await.
BroilJAB said,
just a shell .If you die as an
atheist ,eternal torments await.
The atheist chooses his final estate.
He is given free will to choose.
Btw, every Nym in this thread, so
far, is VIRGIL, except for Jason and me.
Notice, Jason, that 'Virgil' just cannot
help himself: when he concocts a nym
(such as Jope here), he is unable to
inject Realism and an apparently stable
personality into (the Nym's) postings.
Uncle Vic
Jul 9, 2012, 12:00:34 PM7/9/12
to
Jope <jop...@gmail.com> wrote in news:a2537159-cdbf-44be-81b6-
8a6acd...@h10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
> I know of somebody who while doing a breathing exercise got out of his
> body.
> And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
> his very own body lying in bed.
> The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
> atheist ,eternal torments await.
Thanks for the morning belly-laugh, Jope. That was really twisted.
--
Uncle Vic
aa# 2011
Matthew 6:5-6
"Keep thy religion to thyself"
Visit my You Tube Channel!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Vicman6311?feature=mhee
8a6acd...@h10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
> I know of somebody who while doing a breathing exercise got out of his
> body.
> And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
> his very own body lying in bed.
> The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
> atheist ,eternal torments await.
--
Uncle Vic
aa# 2011
Matthew 6:5-6
"Keep thy religion to thyself"
Visit my You Tube Channel!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Vicman6311?feature=mhee
Christopher A. Lee
Jul 9, 2012, 12:07:27 PM7/9/12
to
On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:00:34 -0500, Uncle Vic <so...@noway.com> wrote:
>Jope <jop...@gmail.com> wrote in news:a2537159-cdbf-44be-81b6-
>8a6acd...@h10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I know of somebody who while doing a breathing exercise got out of his
>> body.
>> And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
>> his very own body lying in bed.
>> The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
>> atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
>Thanks for the morning belly-laugh, Jope. That was really twisted.
It takes a fucking moron to threaten anybody outside his religion with
>Jope <jop...@gmail.com> wrote in news:a2537159-cdbf-44be-81b6-
>8a6acd...@h10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I know of somebody who while doing a breathing exercise got out of his
>> body.
>> And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
>> his very own body lying in bed.
>> The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
>> atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
>Thanks for the morning belly-laugh, Jope. That was really twisted.
this bullshit, let alone atheists.
Uncle Vic
Jul 9, 2012, 12:30:58 PM7/9/12
to
Christopher A. Lee <chrisl...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:1c0mv75k5gg7ns130...@4ax.com:
Yup, they're the torment. But it's here now - no waiting.
news:1c0mv75k5gg7ns130...@4ax.com:
kni...@baawa.com
Jul 9, 2012, 1:07:41 PM7/9/12
to
On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:12:45 -0700 (PDT), Jope <jop...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
>atheist ,eternal torments await.
The moral religion has spoken.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
wrote:
>The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
>atheist ,eternal torments await.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
Devils Advocaat
Jul 9, 2012, 1:18:38 PM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 3:51 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> However, your
> spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> hell.
Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
Can you point to its location in the physical body?
>
> See John 3:16
> In article <47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com>, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
> > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
>
> > No more Brownies for you.
>
> > Warlord Steve
> > BAAWA
>
> What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
No, that doesn't happen after death, that is death.
> > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
>
> > No more Brownies for you.
>
> > Warlord Steve
> > BAAWA
>
> What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
> However, your
> spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> hell.
Can you point to its location in the physical body?
>
> See John 3:16
Tim
Jul 9, 2012, 1:20:44 PM7/9/12
to
"BroilJAB" wrote in message
news:1e15694e-2da9-4a19...@6g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
What happens at death? Just exactly
what everyone knows shall happen:
Judgment for your life
And you know that how exactly, lobejob?
Jason
Jul 9, 2012, 5:13:30 PM7/9/12
to
In article
<1889940d-8736-4a2d...@x21g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com>, kni...@baawa.com=
Don't ask for proof since I read the article several years ago.
It's my opinion that the spirit within our bodies has no weight.
<1889940d-8736-4a2d...@x21g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com>, kni...@baawa.com=
> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > > <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
> >
> > > =A0 No more Brownies for you.
> > > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > > <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
> >
> >
> > > Warlord Steve
> > > BAAWA
> >
> > What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
>
> No, that doesn't happen after death, that is death.
>
> > However, your
> > spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > hell.
>
> Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
>
> Can you point to its location in the physical body?
> >
> > See John 3:16
One researcher found out that a human body weights slighly less after they die.
> > > Warlord Steve
> > > BAAWA
> >
> > What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
>
> No, that doesn't happen after death, that is death.
>
> > However, your
> > spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > hell.
>
> Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
>
> Can you point to its location in the physical body?
> >
> > See John 3:16
Don't ask for proof since I read the article several years ago.
It's my opinion that the spirit within our bodies has no weight.
casey
Jul 9, 2012, 5:20:11 PM7/9/12
to
On Jul 10, 7:13 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> [...]
The soul is a mythical being like the angels that were invented
to move the sun across the sky.
The feeling of being a non-physical entity in the body is an illusion.
> [...]
> It's my opinion that the spirit within our bodies has no weight.
There is no evidence for a soul.
The soul is a mythical being like the angels that were invented
to move the sun across the sky.
The feeling of being a non-physical entity in the body is an illusion.
Smiler
Jul 9, 2012, 6:35:30 PM7/9/12
to
evidence." <Christopher Hitchens>
> The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell.
Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> If you die as an atheist ,eternal torments await.
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
Father Haskell
Jul 9, 2012, 6:44:22 PM7/9/12
to
On Jul 8, 7:13 pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> What happens after we die
Carbon.
> can be answered if we
> understand what we are before we die.
Syd M.
Jul 9, 2012, 6:49:30 PM7/9/12
to
Syd M.
Jul 9, 2012, 6:50:40 PM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 3:57 am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> Jope Virgil said,
> The soul is the real you,the body is
> just a shell .If you die as an
> atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> BroilJAB said,
> The atheist chooses his final estate.
Nope.
> Jope Virgil said,
> The soul is the real you,the body is
> just a shell .If you die as an
> atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> BroilJAB said,
> The atheist chooses his final estate.
You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
Syd M.
Jul 9, 2012, 6:53:23 PM7/9/12
to
> <1889940d-8736-4a2d-a340-55c972e6a...@x21g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > In article <47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com>, kni...@baawa.com=
> > wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > > > <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > > > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
>
> > > > =A0 No more Brownies for you.
>
> > > > Warlord Steve
> > > > BAAWA
>
> > > What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
>
> > No, that doesn't happen after death, that is death.
>
> > > However, your
> > > spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > > hell.
>
> > Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
>
> > Can you point to its location in the physical body?
>
> > > See John 3:16
>
> One researcher found out that a human body weights slighly less after they die.
>
> Don't ask for proof since I read the article several years ago.
>
How convenient.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > In article <47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com>, kni...@baawa.com=
> > wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > > > <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > > > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
>
> > > > =A0 No more Brownies for you.
>
> > > > Warlord Steve
> > > > BAAWA
>
> > > What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
>
> > No, that doesn't happen after death, that is death.
>
> > > However, your
> > > spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > > hell.
>
> > Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
>
> > Can you point to its location in the physical body?
>
> > > See John 3:16
>
> One researcher found out that a human body weights slighly less after they die.
>
> Don't ask for proof since I read the article several years ago.
>
Syd M.
Jul 9, 2012, 6:49:15 PM7/9/12
to
casey
Jul 9, 2012, 7:32:13 PM7/9/12
to
So do you think a brain transplant would leave that thinking
feeling you intact?
How can you donate organs if you are not dead, if we are
not carbon as you put it.
Organ donation I would suggest takes place because people
realise it is their brain activity that makes whatever it
is they value about themselves. When the brain is no longer
able to do "you" like a computer program can do a character
in a computer game then you are gone for good.
sbalneav
Jul 10, 2012, 12:13:58 AM7/10/12
to
We can't both be right. We could, however, both be wrong.
--
__ _ | No furniture so charming as books.
(_ |_) | -- Sydney Smith
__)|_) |
casey
Jul 10, 2012, 12:19:26 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 2:13 pm, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
mean when they think about themselves as conscious entities?
What do they mean when they talk about them as opposed to you?
If they were brain dead and they received your brain as a
transplant would they then be alive? Is a brain transplant
different to a liver transplant in that respect?
And so on ...
> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
> >> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >> >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> >> >understand what we are before we die.
>
> >> You rot and return to ambient temp.
>
> > That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
> > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>
> I see you sentient jellyfish floating in plasma.
>
> We can't both be right. We could, however, both be wrong.
So we need to look at the evidence. What do people really
> > On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
> >> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >> >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> >> >understand what we are before we die.
>
> >> You rot and return to ambient temp.
>
> > That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
> > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>
> I see you sentient jellyfish floating in plasma.
>
> We can't both be right. We could, however, both be wrong.
mean when they think about themselves as conscious entities?
What do they mean when they talk about them as opposed to you?
If they were brain dead and they received your brain as a
transplant would they then be alive? Is a brain transplant
different to a liver transplant in that respect?
And so on ...
sbalneav
Jul 10, 2012, 1:19:59 AM7/10/12
to
casey <jgkj...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 2:13 pm, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
>> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> > On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
>> >> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> >> >What happens after we die can be answered if we
>> >> >understand what we are before we die.
>>
>> >> You rot and return to ambient temp.
>>
>> > That is what we observe happens to the body.
>>
>> > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>>
>> I see you sentient jellyfish floating in plasma.
>>
>> We can't both be right. We could, however, both be wrong.
>
> So we need to look at the evidence. What do people really
> mean when they think about themselves as conscious entities?
Seeing as how we don't have a complete picture yet as to how consciousness
> On Jul 10, 2:13 pm, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
>> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> > On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
>> >> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> >> >What happens after we die can be answered if we
>> >> >understand what we are before we die.
>>
>> >> You rot and return to ambient temp.
>>
>> > That is what we observe happens to the body.
>>
>> > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>>
>> I see you sentient jellyfish floating in plasma.
>>
>> We can't both be right. We could, however, both be wrong.
>
> So we need to look at the evidence. What do people really
> mean when they think about themselves as conscious entities?
works yet, probably something incorrect.
> What do they mean when they talk about them as opposed to you?
complete mapping of consciousness to be able to talk about two separate things.
We can talk about "this" rock and "that" rock, and neither of THEM have
consciousness.
> If they were brain dead and they received your brain as a
> transplant would they then be alive?
> Is a brain transplant
> different to a liver transplant in that respect?
"program" running on "hardware", we should be able to "transfer" that WITHOUT
having to physically transfer the brain. In your
made-up-and-not-currently-possible scenario, we're swapping both the hardware
AND the software.
Our current understanding is that consciousness exists as an emergent
phenomenon based upon the arrangement of the physical brain cells and their
connections, as well as the electro-chemical processes that make up standard
brain activity. The "you" you're talking about is inextricably linked to the
brain itself. When the brain is damaged, the processes change, and "you"
change.
> And so on ...
... what?
So far, I'm not seeing anything here but new-age woo and word salad. If you've
got some kind of a case that you're a "program" running on "hardware", then
present your evidence.
--
__ _ | When I look upon men of science and philosophers, man is
(_ |_) | the wisest of all beings; when I look upon priests and
__)|_) | prophets nothing is as contemptible as man. -- Diogenes
casey
Jul 10, 2012, 1:37:37 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 3:19 pm, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 2:13 pm, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
> >> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >> > On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
> >> >> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >> >> >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> >> >> >understand what we are before we die.
>
> >> >> You rot and return to ambient temp.
>
> >> > That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
> >> > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>
> >> I see you sentient jellyfish floating in plasma.
>
> >> We can't both be right. We could, however, both be wrong.
>
> > So we need to look at the evidence. What do people really
> > mean when they think about themselves as conscious entities?
>
> Seeing as how we don't have a complete picture yet as to how consciousness
> works yet, probably something incorrect.
>
> > What do they mean when they talk about them as opposed to you?
>
> I think "you" and "I" are fairly well established concepts. We don't need a
> complete mapping of consciousness to be able to talk about two separate things.
> We can talk about "this" rock and "that" rock, and neither of THEM have
> consciousness.
You and I *as a conscious entity* is not well established. As you
> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 2:13 pm, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
> >> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >> > On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
> >> >> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >> >> >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> >> >> >understand what we are before we die.
>
> >> >> You rot and return to ambient temp.
>
> >> > That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
> >> > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>
> >> I see you sentient jellyfish floating in plasma.
>
> >> We can't both be right. We could, however, both be wrong.
>
> > So we need to look at the evidence. What do people really
> > mean when they think about themselves as conscious entities?
>
> Seeing as how we don't have a complete picture yet as to how consciousness
> works yet, probably something incorrect.
>
> > What do they mean when they talk about them as opposed to you?
>
> I think "you" and "I" are fairly well established concepts. We don't need a
> complete mapping of consciousness to be able to talk about two separate things.
> We can talk about "this" rock and "that" rock, and neither of THEM have
> consciousness.
noted above
we don't yet know how consciousness works.
The issue here is one if identity. What can it mean in terms of your
own
experience to understand my experience? What I am doing here is waving
my hand and hoping you will pick up the concept being talked about.
If you ask me what I mean by "red" I might show you a set of objects
which illustrate the concept and hope you will pick it out.
> > If they were brain dead and they received your brain as a
> > transplant would they then be alive?
>
> My brain would be in the other person's body. So what?
> > Is a brain transplant different to a liver transplant in that respect?
>
> Yeah, we know the brain is where thought processes go on. So? If you're a
> "program" running on "hardware", we should be able to "transfer" that WITHOUT
> having to physically transfer the brain. In your
> made-up-and-not-currently-possible scenario, we're swapping both the hardware
> AND the software.
>
> Our current understanding is that consciousness exists as an emergent
> phenomenon based upon the arrangement of the physical brain cells and their
> connections, as well as the electro-chemical processes that make up standard
> brain activity. The "you" you're talking about is inextricably linked to the
> brain itself. When the brain is damaged, the processes change, and "you"
> change.
talking about, or perhaps have the view there is nothing more to it,
so I guess I can say no more.
>
> > And so on ...
>
> ... what?
>
> So far, I'm not seeing anything here but new-age woo and word salad. If you've
> got some kind of a case that you're a "program" running on "hardware", then
> present your evidence.
thinking in
terms of a computational view of the mind as championed by Steven
Pinker.
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 2:52:01 AM7/10/12
to
In article
<0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
M." <pauldav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See John 3:16
<0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
M." <pauldav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 2:49:07 AM7/10/12
to
> <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
NOT a virtue.
>
> M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 3:57=A0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > BroilJAB said,
> > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > Nope.
> > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See John 3:16
No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 3:57=A0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > BroilJAB said,
> > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > Nope.
> > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See John 3:16
be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
NOT a virtue.
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 3:02:36 AM7/10/12
to
In article
<00857abd-a0d9-40ed...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Father Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
> >
> > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
will end up in heaven or in hell.
<00857abd-a0d9-40ed...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Father Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
> >
> > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> >
> > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> >
> > > Nope.
> > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> >
> > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See John 3:=
> > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> >
> > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> >
> > > Nope.
> > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> >
> 16
>
> No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> NOT a virtue.
Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
>
> No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> NOT a virtue.
will end up in heaven or in hell.
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 2:58:02 AM7/10/12
to
SkyEyes
Jul 10, 2012, 3:35:27 AM7/10/12
to
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 4:07:55 AM7/10/12
to
On Monday, 9 July 2012 23:53:23 UTC+1, Syd M. wrote:
> On Jul 9, 5:13 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> On Jul 9, 5:13 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > <1889940d-8736-4a2d-a340-55c972e6a...@x21g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article <47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com>, kni...@baawa.com=
> > > wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > > > > <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > > > > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > > > > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
> >
> > > > > =A0 No more Brownies for you.
> >
> > > > > Warlord Steve
> > > > > BAAWA
> >
> > > > What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
> >
> > > No, that doesn't happen after death, that is death.
> >
> > > > However, your
> > > > spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > > > hell.
> >
> > > Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
> >
> > > Can you point to its location in the physical body?
> >
> > > > See John 3:16
> >
> > One researcher found out that a human body weights slighly less after they die.
> >
> > Don't ask for proof since I read the article several years ago.
> >
>
> How convenient.
No, that's a well known experiment done around about the end of the 19th century. I'm sure google would find it.
6 ounces?
No doubt there's a less spiritual explanation, probably having to do with gasses, or an effect on the weighing apparatus from blood surges.
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 4:16:58 AM7/10/12
to
On Monday, 9 July 2012 06:12:45 UTC+1, Jope wrote:
> On Jul 8, 7:13 pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > understand what we are before we die.
> >
> > So we don't have to wait until we die to answer
> > the question. And even if we "found ourselves in
> > heaven or hell" after death it wouldn't prove
> > life after death only that whatever appeared in
> > heaven or hell had the memory of someone who
> > once lived. So you will not find out for sure
> > if you (the now you in heaven or hell) really
> > existed once before after death.
> >
> > All the evidence is that we are a brain process.
> >
> > The brain creates a model of its environment and
> > that includes a model of itself both as a physical
> > entity and as a process creating that model.
> >
> > The brain is continually changing so what is it
> > that continues while the brain is intact that can
> > be called the Self.
> >
> > In a dreamless sleep or coma the Self is "turned off".
> > When the brain awakes the Self returns once again.
> > At least the Self experiences itself as returning
> > again because it has a episodic memory system.
> >
> > That Self can access memories of previous brain states
> > which included itself as being present.
> >
> > In reality you only experience yourself as the same
> > person throughout your life because at any give time
> > you have access to a episodic memory. Without it
> > you would have to say you have just "woken up" which
> > is exactly what subjects with certain brain damage
> > do say. You would deny that you existed as an awake
> > person 10 minutes ago when in fact you did exist as
> > an awake person.
AFAIK there's hasn't, to date, been any case of any patient reporting seeing this picture after being rescusitated.
Saddly it looks like OOB is nothing more than a hallucination, typically caused by anoxia, and the consistency of the experience reflects nothing more than a common failure mode inherent in the structure of the human brain.
> On Jul 8, 7:13 pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > understand what we are before we die.
> >
> > So we don't have to wait until we die to answer
> > the question. And even if we "found ourselves in
> > heaven or hell" after death it wouldn't prove
> > life after death only that whatever appeared in
> > heaven or hell had the memory of someone who
> > once lived. So you will not find out for sure
> > if you (the now you in heaven or hell) really
> > existed once before after death.
> >
> > All the evidence is that we are a brain process.
> >
> > The brain creates a model of its environment and
> > that includes a model of itself both as a physical
> > entity and as a process creating that model.
> >
> > The brain is continually changing so what is it
> > that continues while the brain is intact that can
> > be called the Self.
> >
> > In a dreamless sleep or coma the Self is "turned off".
> > When the brain awakes the Self returns once again.
> > At least the Self experiences itself as returning
> > again because it has a episodic memory system.
> >
> > That Self can access memories of previous brain states
> > which included itself as being present.
> >
> > In reality you only experience yourself as the same
> > person throughout your life because at any give time
> > you have access to a episodic memory. Without it
> > you would have to say you have just "woken up" which
> > is exactly what subjects with certain brain damage
> > do say. You would deny that you existed as an awake
> > person 10 minutes ago when in fact you did exist as
> > an awake person.
> >
> > It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
> > It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
>
> I know of somebody who while doing a breathing exercise got out of his
> body.
> And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
> his very own body lying in bed.
> I know of somebody who while doing a breathing exercise got out of his
> body.
> And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
> his very own body lying in bed.
> The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
> atheist ,eternal torments await.
Because of the frequent reports of OOB experiences from patients who were resusicitated, many emergency rooms have pictures placed on high shelves where they would be out of sight to anyone moving normally about the room, but visible to any disembodied spirits floating about near the ceiling.
> atheist ,eternal torments await.
AFAIK there's hasn't, to date, been any case of any patient reporting seeing this picture after being rescusitated.
Saddly it looks like OOB is nothing more than a hallucination, typically caused by anoxia, and the consistency of the experience reflects nothing more than a common failure mode inherent in the structure of the human brain.
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 4:21:14 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 4:07 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
Electromagnet under the bed, confederate in an
adjoining room operating the switch.
wrote:
adjoining room operating the switch.
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 4:22:48 AM7/10/12
to
telescope to finally see this "heaven" place.
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 4:27:30 AM7/10/12
to
On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 09:21:14 UTC+1, Father Haskell wrote:
> On Jul 10, 4:07 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Monday, 9 July 2012 23:53:23 UTC+1, Syd M. wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 5:13 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > &gt; In article
> > > &gt; &lt;1889940d-8736-4a2d-a340-55c972e6a...@x21g2000vbc.googlegroups.com&gt;,
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; Devils Advocaat &lt;mankygo...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; In article &lt;47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com&gt;, kni...@baawa.com=
> > > &gt; &gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au&gt; wrote:
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =A0 No more Brownies for you.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Warlord Steve
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; BAAWA
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; No, that doesn&#39;t happen after death, that is death.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; However, your
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; hell.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; Can you point to its location in the physical body?
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; See John 3:16
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; One researcher found out that a human body weights slighly less after they die.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; Don&#39;t ask for proof since I read the article several years ago.
> > > &gt;
> >
> > > How convenient.
> >
> > No, that's a well known experiment done around about the end of the 19th century. I'm sure google would find it.
> >
> > 6 ounces?
> >
> > No doubt there's a less spiritual explanation, probably having to do with gasses, or an effect on the weighing apparatus from blood surges.
Crookes actually propounded a law "No case involving the paranormal will ever be wholey convincing".
> On Jul 10, 4:07 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Monday, 9 July 2012 23:53:23 UTC+1, Syd M. wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 5:13 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > &gt; In article
> > > &gt; &lt;1889940d-8736-4a2d-a340-55c972e6a...@x21g2000vbc.googlegroups.com&gt;,
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; Devils Advocaat &lt;mankygo...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; In article &lt;47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com&gt;, kni...@baawa.com=
> > > &gt; &gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au&gt; wrote:
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =A0 No more Brownies for you.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Warlord Steve
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; BAAWA
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; What happens after death? Your physical body will die.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; No, that doesn&#39;t happen after death, that is death.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; However, your
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; hell.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; Can you point to its location in the physical body?
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; See John 3:16
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; One researcher found out that a human body weights slighly less after they die.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; Don&#39;t ask for proof since I read the article several years ago.
> > > &gt;
> >
> > > How convenient.
> >
> > No, that's a well known experiment done around about the end of the 19th century. I'm sure google would find it.
> >
> > 6 ounces?
> >
> > No doubt there's a less spiritual explanation, probably having to do with gasses, or an effect on the weighing apparatus from blood surges.
>
> Electromagnet under the bed, confederate in an
> adjoining room operating the switch.
Possibly, but my impression that this was done by an actual scientist. Several quite sound ones were investigating spiritualism arround this time.
> Electromagnet under the bed, confederate in an
> adjoining room operating the switch.
Crookes actually propounded a law "No case involving the paranormal will ever be wholey convincing".
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 4:29:23 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 9, 1:12 pm, Jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In a dreamless sleep or coma the Self is "turned off".
again....but with words only, without the raised person to show.
> And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
> his very own body lying in bed.
your imaginative heaven and bound for hell.
Good luck to your torment in eternity.
> On Jul 8, 7:13 pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > What happens after we die can be answered if we
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > understand what we are before we die.
>
>
> > So we don't have to wait until we die to answer
> > the question. And even if we "found ourselves in
> > heaven or hell" after death it wouldn't prove
> > the question. And even if we "found ourselves in
> > heaven or hell" after death it wouldn't prove
> > life after death only that whatever appeared in
> > heaven or hell had the memory of someone who
> > once lived. So you will not find out for sure
> > if you (the now you in heaven or hell) really
> > existed once before after death.
>
>
> > All the evidence is that we are a brain process.
>
>
> > The brain creates a model of its environment and
> > that includes a model of itself both as a physical
> > entity and as a process creating that model.
>
>
> > The brain is continually changing so what is it
> > that continues while the brain is intact that can
> > be called the Self.
>
> > In a dreamless sleep or coma the Self is "turned off".
> > When the brain awakes the Self returns once again.
> > At least the Self experiences itself as returning
> > again because it has a episodic memory system.
>
>
> > That Self can access memories of previous brain states
> > which included itself as being present.
>
>
> > In reality you only experience yourself as the same
> > person throughout your life because at any give time
> > you have access to a episodic memory. Without it
> > you would have to say you have just "woken up" which
> > is exactly what subjects with certain brain damage
> > do say. You would deny that you existed as an awake
> > person 10 minutes ago when in fact you did exist as
> > an awake person.
>
> > It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
>
>
> I know of somebody who while doing a breathing exercise got out of his
> body.
Your ancient cons had been telling you that human died and raised
> body.
again....but with words only, without the raised person to show.
> And while standing at an elevated position inside the room , he saw
> his very own body lying in bed.
> The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
> atheist ,eternal torments await.
The believers are a bunch of lying shits who aren't even quality to
> atheist ,eternal torments await.
your imaginative heaven and bound for hell.
Good luck to your torment in eternity.
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 4:30:58 AM7/10/12
to
On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> In article
> <00857abd-a0d9-40ed...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> Father Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
> > >
> > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> > >
> > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> > >
> > > > Nope.
> > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> > >
> > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See John 3:=
> > 16
> >
> > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > NOT a virtue.
No signs of "spirit bodies" there, is there?
No, it's more a "dawn of the dead" thing. And "Sure and certain hope" souds like a contradiction in terms to me.
> In article
> <00857abd-a0d9-40ed...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> Father Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
> > >
> > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> > >
> > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> > >
> > > > Nope.
> > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> > >
> > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See John 3:=
> > 16
> >
> > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > NOT a virtue.
>
> Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> will end up in heaven or in hell.
So why does the traditional Burial service speak of "The graves will give up their dead" and "In sure and certain *hope* of the _resurrection_ to eternal life."?
> Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> will end up in heaven or in hell.
No signs of "spirit bodies" there, is there?
No, it's more a "dawn of the dead" thing. And "Sure and certain hope" souds like a contradiction in terms to me.
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 4:25:09 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > BAAWA
>
> What happens after death? Your physical body will die. However, your
your eternal hell, bearing in mind that atheists are not the subject
of any non-existing pixie.
> In article <47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com>, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
> > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT), casey
> > <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
>
>
> > >It is this NOW memory of a past and predicted future
> > >that makes up the continual and yet changing Self.
>
> > No more Brownies for you.
>
> > Warlord Steve
>
> > BAAWA
>
> What happens after death? Your physical body will die. However, your
> spirit body will leave your physical body and spent eternity in heaven or
> hell.
>
> See John 3:16
Your fear has been cast solidly upon you by the cons...good luck with
>
> See John 3:16
your eternal hell, bearing in mind that atheists are not the subject
of any non-existing pixie.
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 4:31:39 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 9, 1:58 pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
>
> On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
>
> > casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > >understand what we are before we die.
>
> > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > >understand what we are before we die.
>
> > You rot and return to ambient temp.
>
> That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
> However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
Hardware and software are real things in human society.
>
> That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
> However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
The human body is real but there is no evidence for the unreal soul
which is just merely religious illusion.
Ask any jungle people, they don't even know the word soul.
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 4:36:33 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 4:27 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
Story I read years ago said the case was cracked,
and the apparatus was found.
wrote:
and the apparatus was found.
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 4:38:35 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 5:20 am, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 7:13 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > It's my opinion that the spirit within our bodies has no weight.
>
> There is no evidence for a soul.
>
> The soul is a mythical being like the angels that were invented
> to move the sun across the sky.
>
> The feeling of being a non-physical entity in the body is an illusion.
It is an outright lie invented by the religion to con the FOOLS.
> On Jul 10, 7:13 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > It's my opinion that the spirit within our bodies has no weight.
>
> There is no evidence for a soul.
>
> The soul is a mythical being like the angels that were invented
> to move the sun across the sky.
>
> The feeling of being a non-physical entity in the body is an illusion.
It is an outright lie invented by the religion to con the FOOLS.
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 4:36:54 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 1:07 am, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
Who dares to claim Christianity is moral?
>
> Warlord Steve
> BAAWA
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:12:45 -0700 (PDT), Jope <jope...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
> >atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> The moral religion has spoken.
> wrote:
>
> >The soul is the real you,the body is just a shell .If you die as an
> >atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
Who dares to claim Christianity is moral?
>
> Warlord Steve
> BAAWA
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 4:41:38 AM7/10/12
to
No one has brain transplant before and you won't know anything about
it.
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 4:48:54 AM7/10/12
to
kindergarten kid, knowing nothing whatsoever.
The more normal one he could understand is wee wee, mum
mum.............
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 4:45:17 AM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 2:52 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article
> <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
>
> In article
> <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, "Syd
>
> M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 3:57=A0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > BroilJAB said,
> > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > Nope.
> > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See John 3:16
What is this John 3.16 shit ?
> > On Jul 9, 3:57=A0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > BroilJAB said,
> > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > Nope.
> > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See John 3:16
Is it food for worms like you?
casey
Jul 10, 2012, 5:21:21 AM7/10/12
to
Yes hardware (brains) and software (weighted connections) are
real things.
casey
Jul 10, 2012, 5:27:39 AM7/10/12
to
wasn't meant as a lie, it is how it seemed to be, just as the
Earth seemed to be flat and at rest.
sbalneav
Jul 10, 2012, 11:08:19 AM7/10/12
to
consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
> The issue here is one if identity. What can it mean in terms of your
> own
> experience to understand my experience?
can never know what it's like to be me. We can speak to each other, and gain
*approximate* ideas as to how you're feeling. For example, I've hit my thumb a
few times with a hammer, and I know it hurts. If you tell me "I hit my thumb
yesterday with a hammer and it smarted like heck!", I've got a pretty good idea
what you mean by that. Did I "experience" your pain yesterday? No, I didn't.
> What I am doing here is waving
> my hand and hoping you will pick up the concept being talked about.
want to talk about.
> If you ask me what I mean by "red" I might show you a set of objects
> which illustrate the concept and hope you will pick it out.
"Wow, man, is my red the same as your red?! FREAKY!"
So what? So long as we both agree it's red, what difference does it make?
What counts is that our observations are CONSISTENT. Not that they're
absolute. "My Red" doesn't need to be the same as "Your Red", so long as:
1) We both agree it's "Red", and
2) Every time we look at it, it's still "Red". (Barring, of course, tinted
glasses, psychoactive drugs, etc etc.)
That the combination of neurons and electrochemical signals in my brain might
not be EXACTLY the same as the neurons and electrochemical signals in your
brain when we register "Red" is irrelevant.
>> > If they were brain dead and they received your brain as a
>> > transplant would they then be alive?
>>
>> My brain would be in the other person's body. So what?
>
> See below.
>
>> > Is a brain transplant different to a liver transplant in that respect?
>>
>> Yeah, we know the brain is where thought processes go on. So? If you're a
>> "program" running on "hardware", we should be able to "transfer" that WITHOUT
>> having to physically transfer the brain. In your
>> made-up-and-not-currently-possible scenario, we're swapping both the hardware
>> AND the software.
>>
>> Our current understanding is that consciousness exists as an emergent
>> phenomenon based upon the arrangement of the physical brain cells and their
>> connections, as well as the electro-chemical processes that make up standard
>> brain activity. The "you" you're talking about is inextricably linked to the
>> brain itself. When the brain is damaged, the processes change, and "you"
>> change.
>
> Essentially that is how I see it also. You clearly don't see what I am
> talking about,
> or perhaps have the view there is nothing more to it,
upon you to submit the evidence necessary to back up that assertion.
> so I guess I can say no more.
the field in good order.
>> > And so on ...
>>
>> ... what?
>>
>> So far, I'm not seeing anything here but new-age woo and word salad. If you've
>> got some kind of a case that you're a "program" running on "hardware", then
>> present your evidence.
>
> The case has been put by more articulate writers than myself. I am
> thinking in
> terms of a computational view of the mind as championed by Steven
> Pinker.
processes. I suspect some things we are hardwired for, but that rather blows
your "Program running on hardware" model out the door. If you're a "program"
running on "Hardware", then you'd have had to have been "Programmed" at some
point, which is a purely empiricist viewpoint. Unless you're trying to argue
that you're "born" with the "Program", but in that case, how do you distinguish
that from nativism?
--
__ _ | I think we can put our differences behind us...
(_ |_) | for science. You monster.
__)|_) | -- GLaDOS, Portal 2
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 12:05:58 PM7/10/12
to
On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 16:08:19 UTC+1, sbalneav wrote:
>
> Pinker's a nativist. He takes the position that we're born with some mental
> running on "Hardware", then you'd have had to have been "Programmed" at some
> point, which is a purely empiricist viewpoint. Unless you're trying to argue
> that you're "born" with the "Program", but in that case, how do you distinguish
> that from nativism?
>
Well, your modern computer starts out with quite a lot of code in "firmware" before anything is loaded. I once, briefly, had to use a computer than had no firmware and, let me tell you, it was a pain.
The firmware is simply part of the code in the computer. If you could upload a person's mind into cyberspace then you wouldn't distinguish between firware and wetware.
>
> Pinker's a nativist. He takes the position that we're born with some mental
> processes. I suspect some things we are hardwired for, but that rather blows
> your "Program running on hardware" model out the door. If you're a "program"
> running on "Hardware", then you'd have had to have been "Programmed" at some
> point, which is a purely empiricist viewpoint. Unless you're trying to argue
> that you're "born" with the "Program", but in that case, how do you distinguish
> that from nativism?
>
Well, your modern computer starts out with quite a lot of code in "firmware" before anything is loaded. I once, briefly, had to use a computer than had no firmware and, let me tell you, it was a pain.
The firmware is simply part of the code in the computer. If you could upload a person's mind into cyberspace then you wouldn't distinguish between firware and wetware.
sbalneav
Jul 10, 2012, 12:39:15 PM7/10/12
to
Malcolm McMahon <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 16:08:19 UTC+1, sbalneav wrote:
>>
>> Pinker's a nativist. He takes the position that we're born with some mental
>> processes. I suspect some things we are hardwired for, but that rather blows
>> your "Program running on hardware" model out the door. If you're a "program"
>> running on "Hardware", then you'd have had to have been "Programmed" at some
>> point, which is a purely empiricist viewpoint. Unless you're trying to argue
>> that you're "born" with the "Program", but in that case, how do you distinguish
>> that from nativism?
>>
>
> Well, your modern computer starts out with quite a lot of code in "firmware" before anything is loaded. I once, briefly, had to use a computer than had no firmware and, let me tell you, it was a pain.
Programmed several of themselves myself.
> On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 16:08:19 UTC+1, sbalneav wrote:
>>
>> Pinker's a nativist. He takes the position that we're born with some mental
>> processes. I suspect some things we are hardwired for, but that rather blows
>> your "Program running on hardware" model out the door. If you're a "program"
>> running on "Hardware", then you'd have had to have been "Programmed" at some
>> point, which is a purely empiricist viewpoint. Unless you're trying to argue
>> that you're "born" with the "Program", but in that case, how do you distinguish
>> that from nativism?
>>
>
> Well, your modern computer starts out with quite a lot of code in "firmware" before anything is loaded. I once, briefly, had to use a computer than had no firmware and, let me tell you, it was a pain.
> The firmware is simply part of the code in the computer. If you could upload a person's mind into cyberspace then you wouldn't distinguish between firware and wetware.
that he's just read "Neuromancer", and was kind of freaked out by it.
--
__ _ | If evil be spoken of you and it be true, correct yourself,
(_ |_) | if it be a lie, laugh at it.
__)|_) | -- Epictetus
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 2:54:44 PM7/10/12
to
In article
<d9267d14-5041-4909...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Father Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 3:02=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, =
> "Syd
> >
> > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrot=
> n 3:=3D
brother is still alive. The only major different between those two twin
brothers is that one of them has his spirit body inside of his physical
body and the other twin brother has his physical body in the casket and
his spirit body in heaven or hell. I looked up "spirit" in my dictionary
and it says:
"a supernatural being or essence that gives life to a human being."
<d9267d14-5041-4909...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Father Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 3:02=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Syd
> >
> > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrot=
> e:
> > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> >
> > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> >
> > > > > Nope.
> > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> >
> > > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See Joh=
> > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> >
> > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> >
> > > > > Nope.
> > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> >
> n 3:=3D
> > > 16
> >
> > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > be dead. =A0Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> >
> > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > NOT a virtue.
> >
> > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
> Define "spirit body."
Let's say that one twin brother dies in a car accident. The other twin
> >
> > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
> Define "spirit body."
brother is still alive. The only major different between those two twin
brothers is that one of them has his spirit body inside of his physical
body and the other twin brother has his physical body in the casket and
his spirit body in heaven or hell. I looked up "spirit" in my dictionary
and it says:
"a supernatural being or essence that gives life to a human being."
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 2:56:11 PM7/10/12
to
In article
<a7a4fd94-ec3a-40f7...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 11:58=A0pm, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wr=
> ohn 3:=3D
<a7a4fd94-ec3a-40f7...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 11:58=A0pm, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 3:02=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > In article
> > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>=
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > In article
> > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wr=
> ote:
> > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> >
> > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> >
> > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> >
> > > > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See J=
> > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> >
> > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> >
> > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> >
> ohn 3:=3D
> > > > 16
> >
> > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > be dead. =A0Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> >
> > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > NOT a virtue.
> >
> > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
> >
> > Define "spirit body."
>
> ...and show evidence that such a thing exists, please.
>
> Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
> BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
> EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
> skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
> skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
> >
> > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
> >
> > Define "spirit body."
>
> ...and show evidence that such a thing exists, please.
>
> Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
> BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
> EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
> skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
> skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 2:59:47 PM7/10/12
to
In article
<03df70a3-375e-4c7d...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, Yap
<hhya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 1:58=A0pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
people believe in some sort of God--even if it is the sun or a huge tree.
<03df70a3-375e-4c7d...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, Yap
<hhya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 1:58=A0pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 1:00=A0pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
> >
> > > casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > > >understand what we are before we die.
> >
> > > You rot and return to ambient temp.
> >
> > That is what we observe happens to the body.
> >
> > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>
> Hardware and software are real things in human society.
> The human body is real but there is no evidence for the unreal soul
> which is just merely religious illusion.
>
> Ask any jungle people, they don't even know the word soul.
The reason for that is because they don't speak english. Most jungle
> >
> > > casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > > >understand what we are before we die.
> >
> > > You rot and return to ambient temp.
> >
> > That is what we observe happens to the body.
> >
> > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>
> Hardware and software are real things in human society.
> The human body is real but there is no evidence for the unreal soul
> which is just merely religious illusion.
>
> Ask any jungle people, they don't even know the word soul.
people believe in some sort of God--even if it is the sun or a huge tree.
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 3:01:07 PM7/10/12
to
In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
There are also lots of scriptures about heaven and hell.
Tim
Jul 10, 2012, 3:01:45 PM7/10/12
to
"Jason" wrote in message
news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
How does one see when one is dead?
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 3:35:37 PM7/10/12
to
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 3:33:28 PM7/10/12
to
> <d9267d14-5041-4909-9ae4-dc8fbc613...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
The real "major difference" is one is fit as a fiddle and
the other is worm chow.
> I looked up "spirit" in my dictionary
> and it says:
>
> "a supernatural being or essence that gives life to a human being."
The distilled portion of a liquor, or wind, root of the words
respiration, inspiration, and expiration.
the other is worm chow.
> I looked up "spirit" in my dictionary
> and it says:
>
> "a supernatural being or essence that gives life to a human being."
respiration, inspiration, and expiration.
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 3:34:44 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 2:56 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
No one sees fuckall on the day they die.
>
> You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 3:35:23 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 2:59 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> The reason for that is because they don't speak english. Most jungle
> people believe in some sort of God--even if it is the sun or a huge tree.
Sounds like a rational reason to me.
> The reason for that is because they don't speak english. Most jungle
> people believe in some sort of God--even if it is the sun or a huge tree.
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 3:37:04 PM7/10/12
to
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 3:37:54 PM7/10/12
to
On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:35:37 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> In article <jthu6r$oo$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
>
> > "Jason" wrote in message
> > news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
> >
> >
> > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
> >
> >
> > -----
> >
> > How does one see when one is dead?
> In article <jthu6r$oo$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
>
> > "Jason" wrote in message
> > news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
> >
> >
> > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
> >
> >
> > -----
> >
> > How does one see when one is dead?
>
> Spirit bodies are able to see.
Have you read Huxley's "The Doors of Perception"?
> Spirit bodies are able to see.
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 3:36:37 PM7/10/12
to
On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:01:07 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
> Malcolm McMahon <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > &gt; On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; In article
> &quot;Syd
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB
> &lt;DesignDen...@wmconnect.com&gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jope Virgil said,
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; just a shell .If you die as an
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; atheist ,eternal torments await.
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; BroilJAB said,
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The atheist chooses his final estate.
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; Nope.
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; No one will find out a thing when they die, because they&#39;ll
> > > &gt; be dead. Despite what you&#39;ve heard in church, stupidity is
> > > &gt; NOT a virtue.
> > >
> > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
> >
> > So why does the traditional Burial service speak of "The graves will
> give up their dead" and "In sure and certain *hope* of the _resurrection_
> to eternal life."?
> >
> > No signs of "spirit bodies" there, is there?
> >
> > No, it's more a "dawn of the dead" thing. And "Sure and certain hope"
> In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
> Malcolm McMahon <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article
> > > &lt;00857abd-a0d9-40ed...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com&gt;,
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article
> > > &gt; On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; In article
> > > &gt; &gt;
> &lt;0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com&gt;,
> &quot;Syd
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; M.&quot; &lt;pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com&gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB
> &lt;DesignDen...@wmconnect.com&gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jope Virgil said,
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; just a shell .If you die as an
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; atheist ,eternal torments await.
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; BroilJAB said,
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The atheist chooses his final estate.
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; Nope.
> > > &gt; &gt; &gt; You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you
> die. See John 3:=
> > > &gt; 16
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; No one will find out a thing when they die, because they&#39;ll
> > > &gt; be dead. Despite what you&#39;ve heard in church, stupidity is
> > > &gt; NOT a virtue.
> > >
> > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
> >
> > So why does the traditional Burial service speak of "The graves will
> give up their dead" and "In sure and certain *hope* of the _resurrection_
> to eternal life."?
> >
> > No signs of "spirit bodies" there, is there?
> >
> > No, it's more a "dawn of the dead" thing. And "Sure and certain hope"
> souds like a contradiction in terms to me.
>
> There are also lots of scriptures about heaven and hell.
e.g.?
>
> There are also lots of scriptures about heaven and hell.
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 3:43:55 PM7/10/12
to
On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 19:59:47 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> In article
> <03df70a3-375e-4c7d...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, Yap
> In article
> <hhya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 9, 1:58=A0pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > > casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > > > >understand what we are before we die.
> > >
> > > > You rot and return to ambient temp.
> > >
> > > That is what we observe happens to the body.
> > >
> > > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
> >
> > Hardware and software are real things in human society.
> > The human body is real but there is no evidence for the unreal soul
> > which is just merely religious illusion.
> >
> > Ask any jungle people, they don't even know the word soul.
>
> The reason for that is because they don't speak english. Most jungle
> people believe in some sort of God--even if it is the sun or a huge tree.
Belief in gods isn't the same thing as believing in the separable soul. Where they do, it's often a very different picture. Some of the Pacific islanders, for example, believe that each of us has two or three souls which ordinarily go their separate ways on death. The intellect has one, the memory and subconscious another, the higher self makes a third.
Father Haskell
Jul 10, 2012, 3:36:22 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 3:01 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article
casey
Jul 10, 2012, 4:08:01 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 11, 1:08 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
> [...]
In what way am I also conscious like you. *Your* subjective
experience is *you*, not something you have that I also have.
The point is subtle I think and for the other person not to
see it is give a "of course" response.
It is about personal identity. What makes my "consciousness"
different to yours when really what difference could there be?
Sure the content at any time will be different but that is
also true for the individual at differnt times.
> I can't ever know what it's like to be you, in exactly the same way that you
> can never know what it's like to be me.
It is in what sense we are alike consciously. I really don't
know how to word what I am thinking, that is the problem.
> Did I "experience" your pain yesterday? No, I didn't.
And in that sense you are not what *I* call being conscious.
It is the personal evidence that some people use to conclude
that they are the only person that is conscious which I
reject as unlikely.
> > What I am doing here is waving
> > my hand and hoping you will pick up the concept being talked about.
>
> Yes, I noticed. In other words, you can't properly articulate what it is you
> want to talk about.
>
> > If you ask me what I mean by "red" I might show you a set of objects
> > which illustrate the concept and hope you will pick it out.
>
> This is standard philosophy 101, or standard "stuff you talk about while high".
>
> "Wow, man, is my red the same as your red?! FREAKY!"
No that is not what I am talking about.
It was about how we learn someone else's concept.
I have tried to "point" to what I am thinking but
you have come back with the concept of how you
might experience red as my blue etc. but the color
was an example of how we learn a concept not the
concept I wanted to convey which I am not sure how
to "point" to.
> > Essentially that is how I see it also. You clearly don't see what I am
> > talking about,
>
> Then try making your point clearly, minus the woo and word salad.
I really wish I could but apparently it turns
into woo and word salad.
> > or perhaps have the view there is nothing more to it,
>
> If it's your view that there IS something more to it, the duty is incumbent
> upon you to submit the evidence necessary to back up that assertion.
It is not evidence that is required it is a view
point to be articulated, or should I say, seen as
the evidence by your own subjective experience.
I have personal evidence I am a conscious entity
but you can only infer it in me and infer that it
is in some way what it is for you to be conscious.
>> I am thinking in terms of a computational view of the mind as championed
>> by Steven Pinker.
>
> Pinker's a nativist. He takes the position that we're born with some mental
> processes. I suspect some things we are hardwired for, but that rather blows
> your "Program running on hardware" model out the door. If you're a "program"
> running on "Hardware", then you'd have had to have been "Programmed" at some
> point, which is a purely empiricist viewpoint. Unless you're trying to argue
> that you're "born" with the "Program", but in that case, how do you distinguish
> that from nativism?
Yes he expands on that in his book The Blank Slate.
My view is that we are born with a "working brain"
which differs between individuals and is modified
by experience.
But it was the computational point of view of mind that
also interested me and how it "rehabilitates once and
for all the infamous homunculus."
> [...]
> You and I are well established: we know we're separate. That we don't know how
> consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
Yes I understand that. But being "conscious you" is so unique.
> consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
In what way am I also conscious like you. *Your* subjective
experience is *you*, not something you have that I also have.
The point is subtle I think and for the other person not to
see it is give a "of course" response.
It is about personal identity. What makes my "consciousness"
different to yours when really what difference could there be?
Sure the content at any time will be different but that is
also true for the individual at differnt times.
> I can't ever know what it's like to be you, in exactly the same way that you
> can never know what it's like to be me.
know how to word what I am thinking, that is the problem.
> Did I "experience" your pain yesterday? No, I didn't.
It is the personal evidence that some people use to conclude
that they are the only person that is conscious which I
reject as unlikely.
> > What I am doing here is waving
> > my hand and hoping you will pick up the concept being talked about.
>
> Yes, I noticed. In other words, you can't properly articulate what it is you
> want to talk about.
>
> > If you ask me what I mean by "red" I might show you a set of objects
> > which illustrate the concept and hope you will pick it out.
>
> This is standard philosophy 101, or standard "stuff you talk about while high".
>
> "Wow, man, is my red the same as your red?! FREAKY!"
It was about how we learn someone else's concept.
I have tried to "point" to what I am thinking but
you have come back with the concept of how you
might experience red as my blue etc. but the color
was an example of how we learn a concept not the
concept I wanted to convey which I am not sure how
to "point" to.
> > Essentially that is how I see it also. You clearly don't see what I am
> > talking about,
>
> Then try making your point clearly, minus the woo and word salad.
into woo and word salad.
> > or perhaps have the view there is nothing more to it,
>
> If it's your view that there IS something more to it, the duty is incumbent
> upon you to submit the evidence necessary to back up that assertion.
point to be articulated, or should I say, seen as
the evidence by your own subjective experience.
I have personal evidence I am a conscious entity
but you can only infer it in me and infer that it
is in some way what it is for you to be conscious.
>> I am thinking in terms of a computational view of the mind as championed
>> by Steven Pinker.
>
> Pinker's a nativist. He takes the position that we're born with some mental
> processes. I suspect some things we are hardwired for, but that rather blows
> your "Program running on hardware" model out the door. If you're a "program"
> running on "Hardware", then you'd have had to have been "Programmed" at some
> point, which is a purely empiricist viewpoint. Unless you're trying to argue
> that you're "born" with the "Program", but in that case, how do you distinguish
> that from nativism?
My view is that we are born with a "working brain"
which differs between individuals and is modified
by experience.
But it was the computational point of view of mind that
also interested me and how it "rehabilitates once and
for all the infamous homunculus."
casey
Jul 10, 2012, 4:14:03 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 11, 2:05 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> [...]
memory. I had to program it via toggle switches and read the
address locations and data content as a binary LED output.
wrote:
> [...]
> Well, your modern computer starts out with quite a lot of code in
> "firmware" before anything is loaded. I once, briefly, had to use
> a computer than had no firmware and, let me tell you, it was a pain.
I had to solder up my first computer and it started with a blank
> "firmware" before anything is loaded. I once, briefly, had to use
> a computer than had no firmware and, let me tell you, it was a pain.
memory. I had to program it via toggle switches and read the
address locations and data content as a binary LED output.
Jeanne Douglas
Jul 10, 2012, 4:16:38 PM7/10/12
to
In article <cfa914df-1b2f-42cd...@googlegroups.com>,
Malcolm McMahon <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 09:21:14 UTC+1, Father Haskell wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 4:07 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On Monday, 9 July 2012 23:53:23 UTC+1, Syd M. wrote:
> > > > On Jul 9, 5:13 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > &gt; In article
> > > > &gt;
> > &lt;1889940d-8736-4a2d-a340-55c972e6a...@x21g2000vbc.googlegroups.com&am
> > p;gt;,
> > wrote:
> > > > &gt; &gt; On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason)
> > wrote:
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; In article
> > &lt;47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com&gt;,
> > kni...@baawa.com=
> > > > &gt; &gt; wrote:
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42
> > -0700 (PDT), casey
> > of a past and predicted future
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;that makes up the
> > continual and yet changing Self.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =A0 No more Brownies for you.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Warlord Steve
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; BAAWA
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; What happens after death? Your
> > physical body will die.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; No, that doesn&#39;t happen after death,
> > that is death.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; However, your
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; spirit body will leave your physical
> > body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; hell.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; Can you point to its location in the physical
> > body?
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; See John 3:16
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; One researcher found out that a human body weights
> > slighly less after they die.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; Don&#39;t ask for proof since I read the article
> > several years ago.
> > >
> > > No, that's a well known experiment done around about the end of
> > the 19th century. I'm sure google would find it.
> > >
> > > 6 ounces?
> > >
> > > No doubt there's a less spiritual explanation, probably having to
> > do with gasses, or an effect on the weighing apparatus from blood surges.
> >
> > Electromagnet under the bed, confederate in an
> > adjoining room operating the switch.
>
> Possibly, but my impression that this was done by an actual scientist.
> Several quite sound ones were investigating spiritualism arround this time.
Yes, that's right.
The guy got the weight difference he wanted once, but was NEVER able to
replicate that experiment nor was anyone else.
--
JD
"the lybian lier"
Malcolm McMahon <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 09:21:14 UTC+1, Father Haskell wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 4:07 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On Monday, 9 July 2012 23:53:23 UTC+1, Syd M. wrote:
> > > > On Jul 9, 5:13 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > &gt; In article
> > > > &gt;
> > &lt;1889940d-8736-4a2d-a340-55c972e6a...@x21g2000vbc.googlegroups.com&am
> > p;gt;,
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; Devils Advocaat &lt;mankygo...@gmail.com&gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt;
> > wrote:
> > > > &gt; &gt; On Jul 9, 3:51=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason)
> > wrote:
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; In article
> > &lt;47dkv79mjqc6pkr5g0ffikr4sgnl3re...@4ax.com&gt;,
> > kni...@baawa.com=
> > > > &gt; &gt; wrote:
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:13:42
> > -0700 (PDT), casey
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;It is this NOW memory
> > of a past and predicted future
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;that makes up the
> > continual and yet changing Self.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =A0 No more Brownies for you.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Warlord Steve
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; BAAWA
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; What happens after death? Your
> > physical body will die.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; No, that doesn&#39;t happen after death,
> > that is death.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; However, your
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; spirit body will leave your physical
> > body and spent eternity in heaven or
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; hell.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; Can you identify this alleged spirit body?
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; Can you point to its location in the physical
> > body?
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; &gt; &gt; See John 3:16
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; One researcher found out that a human body weights
> > slighly less after they die.
> > > > &gt;
> > > > &gt; Don&#39;t ask for proof since I read the article
> > several years ago.
> > > > &gt;
> > >
> > > > How convenient.
> > >
> > >
> > > No, that's a well known experiment done around about the end of
> > the 19th century. I'm sure google would find it.
> > >
> > > 6 ounces?
> > >
> > > No doubt there's a less spiritual explanation, probably having to
> > do with gasses, or an effect on the weighing apparatus from blood surges.
> >
> > Electromagnet under the bed, confederate in an
> > adjoining room operating the switch.
>
> Possibly, but my impression that this was done by an actual scientist.
> Several quite sound ones were investigating spiritualism arround this time.
Yes, that's right.
The guy got the weight difference he wanted once, but was NEVER able to
replicate that experiment nor was anyone else.
--
JD
"the lybian lier"
sbalneav
Jul 10, 2012, 4:57:07 PM7/10/12
to
casey <jgkj...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jul 11, 1:08 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
>> [...]
>> You and I are well established: we know we're separate. That we don't know how
>> consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
>
> Yes I understand that. But being "conscious you" is so unique.
Yeah, there's only been one conscious me in history. And?
> On Jul 11, 1:08 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
>> [...]
>> You and I are well established: we know we're separate. That we don't know how
>> consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
>
> Yes I understand that. But being "conscious you" is so unique.
> In what way am I also conscious like you.
is, on some level, *similar* to mine.
> *Your* subjective
> experience is *you*, not something you have that I also have.
> The point is subtle I think and for the other person not to
> see it is give a "of course" response.
We even have a term for it: the Human Condition.
> It is about personal identity. What makes my "consciousness"
> different to yours when really what difference could there be?
> Sure the content at any time will be different but that is
> also true for the individual at differnt times.
>> I can't ever know what it's like to be you, in exactly the same way that you
>> can never know what it's like to be me.
>
> It is in what sense we are alike consciously. I really don't
> know how to word what I am thinking, that is the problem.
>> Did I "experience" your pain yesterday? No, I didn't.
>
> And in that sense you are not what *I* call being conscious.
> It is the personal evidence that some people use to conclude
> that they are the only person that is conscious which I
> reject as unlikely.
>> > What I am doing here is waving
>> > my hand and hoping you will pick up the concept being talked about.
>>
>> Yes, I noticed. In other words, you can't properly articulate what it is you
>> want to talk about.
>>
>> > If you ask me what I mean by "red" I might show you a set of objects
>> > which illustrate the concept and hope you will pick it out.
>>
>> This is standard philosophy 101, or standard "stuff you talk about while high".
>>
>> "Wow, man, is my red the same as your red?! FREAKY!"
>
> No that is not what I am talking about.
> It was about how we learn someone else's concept.
> I have tried to "point" to what I am thinking but
> you have come back with the concept of how you
> might experience red as my blue etc. but the color
> was an example of how we learn a concept not the
> concept I wanted to convey which I am not sure how
> to "point" to.
>> > Essentially that is how I see it also. You clearly don't see what I am
>> > talking about,
>>
>> Then try making your point clearly, minus the woo and word salad.
>
> I really wish I could but apparently it turns
> into woo and word salad.
hasn't been covered by solipsist philosophers about 1000 times before.
>> > or perhaps have the view there is nothing more to it,
>>
>> If it's your view that there IS something more to it, the duty is incumbent
>> upon you to submit the evidence necessary to back up that assertion.
>
> It is not evidence that is required it is a view
> point to be articulated,
oil and vinagre on my salad as opposed to a heavy cream dressing", then yeah,
you don't need to do anything other than articulate it. However, if your view
point is that something IS something, or something IS NOT something, then yes,
you do have to have some solid foundation for your reasoning. Either positive
evidence if you're asserting a positive, or a lack of expected evidence if
you're asserting the negative.
> or should I say, seen as
> the evidence by your own subjective experience.
> I have personal evidence I am a conscious entity
> but you can only infer it in me and infer that it
> is in some way what it is for you to be conscious.
nothing else in the unverse can actually be proved to exist, other than your
own mind. Most practical people generally punch solipsists, then ask them why
they chose to imagine that they punched them. The other concept you're dancing
around is the concept of the psycological zombie: i.e. looks like it thinks,
acts like it thinks, responds to stimulii, but it's really just a mindless
drone running a very clever "stimulus/response" program. Again, a silly and
pointless view to hold.
>>> I am thinking in terms of a computational view of the mind as championed
>>> by Steven Pinker.
>>
>> Pinker's a nativist. He takes the position that we're born with some mental
>> processes. I suspect some things we are hardwired for, but that rather blows
>> your "Program running on hardware" model out the door. If you're a "program"
>> running on "Hardware", then you'd have had to have been "Programmed" at some
>> point, which is a purely empiricist viewpoint. Unless you're trying to argue
>> that you're "born" with the "Program", but in that case, how do you distinguish
>> that from nativism?
>
> Yes he expands on that in his book The Blank Slate.
>
> My view is that we are born with a "working brain"
> which differs between individuals and is modified
> by experience.
> But it was the computational point of view of mind that
> also interested me and how it "rehabilitates once and
> for all the infamous homunculus."
able to determine. The "mind" is a byproduct of the physical neuronal
structure of the brain, coupled with the electrochemical processes that the
brain cells themselves implement. Physical, chemical, or electromagnetic
forces can alter and/or terminate brain function, at which point, all evidence
currently suggests, the mind will be similarily altered or terminated. There
is no evidence that my "mind" can be separated from my "brain".
Even if, in some far off science-fiction future, we could create computer
hardware that would mimic a human brain exactly enough to allow for some
fantastical "uploading" of my brain into the computer, that computer "brain"
wouldn't be *me*. It would be a COPY of me. And it would (quite quickly)
begin to change FROM me, as it began to experience new (and horrifying) things,
such as "waking up" in a computer.
Tell me: how do you think this rat's "experience" is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QPiF4-iu6g
--
__ _ | Always do right. This will gratify some people
(_ |_) | and astonish the rest.
__)|_) | -- Mark Twain
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 5:24:44 PM7/10/12
to
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 5:29:06 PM7/10/12
to
In article <9a581a3f-008c-4f00...@googlegroups.com>,
> >=20
> > > On Jul 9, 1:58=3DA0pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 9, 1:00=3DA0pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) =
> re they do, it's often a very different picture. Some of the Pacific island=
> ers, for example, believe that each of us has two or three souls which ordi=
> narily go their separate ways on death. The intellect has one, the memory a=
dead bodies of Indians on top of a one story platforms so it would be
easier for their spirits or souls to get to heaven or to God.
Malcolm McMahon <malcol...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 19:59:47 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > In article
> > <03df70a3-375e-4c7d...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>=
> On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 19:59:47 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > In article
> >=20
> > > On Jul 9, 1:58=3DA0pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 9, 1:00=3DA0pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) =
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > > > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > > > > >understand what we are before we die.
> > > >
> > > > > You rot and return to ambient temp.
> > > >
> > > > That is what we observe happens to the body.
> > > >
> > > > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
> > >=20
> > > >
> > > > > casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > > > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > > > > >understand what we are before we die.
> > > >
> > > > > You rot and return to ambient temp.
> > > >
> > > > That is what we observe happens to the body.
> > > >
> > > > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
> > > Hardware and software are real things in human society.
> > > The human body is real but there is no evidence for the unreal soul
> > > which is just merely religious illusion.
> > >=20
> > > The human body is real but there is no evidence for the unreal soul
> > > which is just merely religious illusion.
> > > Ask any jungle people, they don't even know the word soul.
> >=20
> > The reason for that is because they don't speak english. Most jungle
> > people believe in some sort of God--even if it is the sun or a huge tree.
>
> Belief in gods isn't the same thing as believing in the separable soul. Whe=
> > people believe in some sort of God--even if it is the sun or a huge tree.
>
> re they do, it's often a very different picture. Some of the Pacific island=
> ers, for example, believe that each of us has two or three souls which ordi=
> narily go their separate ways on death. The intellect has one, the memory a=
> nd subconscious another, the higher self makes a third.
I read about the beliefs of American Indians and found that they placed
dead bodies of Indians on top of a one story platforms so it would be
easier for their spirits or souls to get to heaven or to God.
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 5:29:34 PM7/10/12
to
In article
<55a48b1e-7df1-4c33...@t20g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Father Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 2:56=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> No one sees fuckall on the day they die.
Don't be shocked on your judgement day.
<55a48b1e-7df1-4c33...@t20g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Father Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 2:56=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> No one sees fuckall on the day they die.
Jason
Jul 10, 2012, 5:30:38 PM7/10/12
to
In article
<6b6a6c6e-acb1-4395...@b1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, Father
Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 3:35=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <jthu6r$o...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
> > > "Jason" =A0wrote in message
people that are in heaven and by Jesus and God.
<6b6a6c6e-acb1-4395...@b1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, Father
Haskell <father...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 3:35=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <jthu6r$o...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
> > >news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
> >
> > > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
> >
> > > -----
> >
> > > How does one see when one is dead?
> >
> > Spirit bodies are able to see.
>
> Are they invisible? They can't see.
They may be invisible to you but can easily be seen by angels, by other
> >
> > > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
> >
> > > -----
> >
> > > How does one see when one is dead?
> >
> > Spirit bodies are able to see.
>
> Are they invisible? They can't see.
people that are in heaven and by Jesus and God.
Health Enforcer
Jul 10, 2012, 5:25:38 PM7/10/12
to
PLEASE know that any person with some education and curiosity who
deigns to discuss religion and eschatology is doing so in a spirit of
fun and jocularity.
BECAUSE ALL ASPECTS OF ALL RELIGIONS ARE SOLELY AND ENTIRELY OF HUMAN
CONSTRUCT!
Yes -- god, heaven, hell, afterlife, age of the universe, bible,
koran, jesus, allah, angels, commandments, word(s) of god, miracles --
ALL are creations and imaginings of HOMO SAPIENS.
Every one.
However, one comforting aspect of any and all "faiths" is the surety
that one needn't worry about there being no afterlife and the
reuniting of dead loved ones. Because when one's brain straight-lines
at the instant of death, there is no more thought.
Just nothingness.
So, GO, live your sole life, and fear no more!
-- Anonymous Republican
deigns to discuss religion and eschatology is doing so in a spirit of
fun and jocularity.
BECAUSE ALL ASPECTS OF ALL RELIGIONS ARE SOLELY AND ENTIRELY OF HUMAN
CONSTRUCT!
Yes -- god, heaven, hell, afterlife, age of the universe, bible,
koran, jesus, allah, angels, commandments, word(s) of god, miracles --
ALL are creations and imaginings of HOMO SAPIENS.
Every one.
However, one comforting aspect of any and all "faiths" is the surety
that one needn't worry about there being no afterlife and the
reuniting of dead loved ones. Because when one's brain straight-lines
at the instant of death, there is no more thought.
Just nothingness.
So, GO, live your sole life, and fear no more!
-- Anonymous Republican
casey
Jul 10, 2012, 6:16:44 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 11, 6:57 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
an “of course” or in your case “… right. So?”
> The word you're looking for is "Solipsism". Solipsism is the idea that
> nothing else in the universe can actually be proved to exist, other than your
> own mind. Most practical people generally punch solipsists then ask them why
Universe.
clearly we don’t control what other people may or may not do. I try to
understand these questions from an objective point of view using
computer
analogies. So, no solipsism isn’t what I am thinking.
> The other concept you're dancing
> around is the concept of the psychological zombie: i.e. looks like it thinks,
> acts like it thinks, responds to stimuli, but it's really just a mindless
Some interesting PET scan observations have been made on what parts
of the brain are involved while learning a new task where we have to
be conscious of what we want to do next and what parts of the brain
are involved when we execute a learned task which doesn’t require
conscious direction.
Physical, chemical, or electromagnetic
> forces can alter and/or terminate brain function, at which point, all evidence
> currently suggests, the mind will be similarly altered or terminated. There
> Even if, in some far off science-fiction future, we could create computer
> hardware that would mimic a human brain exactly enough to allow for some
> fantastical "uploading" of my brain into the computer, that computer "brain"
> wouldn't be *me*. It would be a COPY of me. And it would (quite quickly)
> begin to change FROM me, as it began to experience new (and horrifying) things,
> such as "waking up" in a computer.
But you also change from “the you before” to “the you now”. You are
identifying
with a perceived continuum.
> Tell me: how do you think this rat's "experience" is?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QPiF4-iu6g
No idea what the rat’s experience is or what exactly any experience is
or even any physical reason to have subjective experience.
Not enough detail was given to even know what they were doing. Grand
claims can be made over nothing much at all.
> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jul 11, 1:08 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> You and I are well established: we know we're separate. That we don't know how
> >> consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
>
> > Yes I understand that. But being "conscious you" is so unique.
>
> Yeah, there's only been one conscious me in history. And?
>
> > In what way am I also conscious like you.
>
> Seeing as how we're from the same species, I'm assuming that your consciousness
> is, on some level, *similar* to mine.
>
> > *Your* subjective
> > experience is *you*, not something you have that I also have.
>
> ....right. So?
>
> > The point is subtle I think and for the other person not to
> > see it is give a "of course" response.
>
> It's not a subtle point. It's a basic point. Each person is an individual.
> We even have a term for it: the Human Condition.
As I wrote: When the other person doesn’t get it you will get
> > On Jul 11, 1:08 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> You and I are well established: we know we're separate. That we don't know how
> >> consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
>
> > Yes I understand that. But being "conscious you" is so unique.
>
> Yeah, there's only been one conscious me in history. And?
>
> > In what way am I also conscious like you.
>
> Seeing as how we're from the same species, I'm assuming that your consciousness
> is, on some level, *similar* to mine.
>
> > *Your* subjective
> > experience is *you*, not something you have that I also have.
>
> ....right. So?
>
> > The point is subtle I think and for the other person not to
> > see it is give a "of course" response.
>
> It's not a subtle point. It's a basic point. Each person is an individual.
> We even have a term for it: the Human Condition.
an “of course” or in your case “… right. So?”
> The word you're looking for is "Solipsism". Solipsism is the idea that
> own mind. Most practical people generally punch solipsists then ask them why
> they chose to imagine that they punched them.
I take it as a working assumption that I am just a subsystem of the
Universe.
clearly we don’t control what other people may or may not do. I try to
understand these questions from an objective point of view using
computer
analogies. So, no solipsism isn’t what I am thinking.
> The other concept you're dancing
> acts like it thinks, responds to stimuli, but it's really just a mindless
> drone running a very clever "stimulus/response" program. Again, a silly and
> pointless view to hold.
>
> pointless view to hold.
>
> There is no logical separation between "mind" and "brain" that science has been
> able to determine. The "mind" is a byproduct of the physical neuronal
> structure of the brain, coupled with the electrochemical processes that the
> brain cells themselves implement.
I don’t see it as a “byproduct” it is more a product.
> able to determine. The "mind" is a byproduct of the physical neuronal
> structure of the brain, coupled with the electrochemical processes that the
> brain cells themselves implement.
Some interesting PET scan observations have been made on what parts
of the brain are involved while learning a new task where we have to
be conscious of what we want to do next and what parts of the brain
are involved when we execute a learned task which doesn’t require
conscious direction.
Physical, chemical, or electromagnetic
> forces can alter and/or terminate brain function, at which point, all evidence
> is no evidence that my "mind" can be separated from my "brain".
Just as walking and legs cannot be separated.
> Even if, in some far off science-fiction future, we could create computer
> hardware that would mimic a human brain exactly enough to allow for some
> fantastical "uploading" of my brain into the computer, that computer "brain"
> wouldn't be *me*. It would be a COPY of me. And it would (quite quickly)
> begin to change FROM me, as it began to experience new (and horrifying) things,
> such as "waking up" in a computer.
identifying
with a perceived continuum.
> Tell me: how do you think this rat's "experience" is?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QPiF4-iu6g
or even any physical reason to have subjective experience.
Not enough detail was given to even know what they were doing. Grand
claims can be made over nothing much at all.
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 10, 2012, 6:52:08 PM7/10/12
to
On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:24:44 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> In article <a73a6a15-3451-4a82...@googlegroups.com>,
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:01:07 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article &lt;c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com&gt;,
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; In article
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > >
> &amp;lt;0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com&amp;gt;,
> > > &amp;quot;Syd
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; M.&amp;quot;
> &amp;lt;pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com&amp;gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB
> > > &amp;lt;DesignDen...@wmconnect.com&amp;gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; Jope Virgil said,
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; The soul is the real
> you,the body is
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; just a shell .If you die as an
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; atheist ,eternal
> torments await.
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; BroilJAB said,
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; The atheist chooses his
> final estate.
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; Nope.
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; You die, and nature returns you
> to the earth.
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; You will find out that you are wrong on
> the day that you
> > > die. See John 3:=
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; 16
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; No one will find out a thing when they die, because
> they&amp;#39;ll
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; be dead. Despite what you&amp;#39;ve heard in
> church, stupidity is
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; NOT a virtue.
> spirit body
> > > &gt; &gt; will end up in heaven or in hell.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; So why does the traditional Burial service speak of &quot;The
> graves will
> > > give up their dead&quot; and &quot;In sure and certain *hope* of the
> _resurrection_
> > > to eternal life.&quot;?
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; No signs of &quot;spirit bodies&quot; there, is there?
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; No, it&#39;s more a &quot;dawn of the dead&quot; thing. And
> &quot;Sure and certain hope&quot;
> > > souds like a contradiction in terms to me.
> > >
> > > There are also lots of scriptures about heaven and hell.
> >
> > e.g.?
>
> Mark 13:32
Hmm.. all very portentous but kind of short on the spirit thing, and no mention of hell that I can see.
He seems to be talking about events to be expected within a generation.
> I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these
> things take place.
Sorry, it did. That seems both unambiguous and untrue.
There's nothing here that suggests the fate of those that die before the impending end of the world.
Rather it's an apocalypse where God gathers up the "Elect", and leaves the rest to die in the disaster. There's nothing in here about life after death at all AFAIKS. Those saved are saved alive.
> In article <a73a6a15-3451-4a82...@googlegroups.com>,
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:01:07 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article &lt;c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com&gt;,
> > > &gt; On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; In article
> > > &gt; &gt;
> &amp;lt;00857abd-a0d9-40ed...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com&amp;gt;,
> > > &gt; &gt; In article
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; Father Haskell &amp;lt;father...@yahoo.com&amp;gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; In article
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > >
> &amp;lt;0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com&amp;gt;,
> > > &amp;quot;Syd
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; M.&amp;quot;
> &amp;lt;pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com&amp;gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB
> > > &amp;lt;DesignDen...@wmconnect.com&amp;gt; wrote:
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; Jope Virgil said,
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; The soul is the real
> you,the body is
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; just a shell .If you die as an
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; atheist ,eternal
> torments await.
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; BroilJAB said,
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; The atheist chooses his
> final estate.
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; Nope.
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; You die, and nature returns you
> to the earth.
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; You will find out that you are wrong on
> the day that you
> > > die. See John 3:=
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; 16
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; No one will find out a thing when they die, because
> they&amp;#39;ll
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; be dead. Despite what you&amp;#39;ve heard in
> church, stupidity is
> > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt; NOT a virtue.
> > > &gt; &gt;
> > > &gt; &gt; Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your
> spirit body
> > > &gt; &gt; will end up in heaven or in hell.
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; So why does the traditional Burial service speak of &quot;The
> graves will
> > > give up their dead&quot; and &quot;In sure and certain *hope* of the
> _resurrection_
> > > to eternal life.&quot;?
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; No signs of &quot;spirit bodies&quot; there, is there?
> > > &gt;
> > > &gt; No, it&#39;s more a &quot;dawn of the dead&quot; thing. And
> &quot;Sure and certain hope&quot;
> > > souds like a contradiction in terms to me.
> > >
> > > There are also lots of scriptures about heaven and hell.
> >
> > e.g.?
>
> Mark 13:32
Hmm.. all very portentous but kind of short on the spirit thing, and no mention of hell that I can see.
He seems to be talking about events to be expected within a generation.
> I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these
> things take place.
Sorry, it did. That seems both unambiguous and untrue.
There's nothing here that suggests the fate of those that die before the impending end of the world.
Rather it's an apocalypse where God gathers up the "Elect", and leaves the rest to die in the disaster. There's nothing in here about life after death at all AFAIKS. Those saved are saved alive.
Richo
Jul 10, 2012, 7:10:13 PM7/10/12
to
Your relatives squabble over who gets the rare coins collection.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardson61ATgmailDOTcom
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardson61ATgmailDOTcom
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
Jenny6833A
Jul 10, 2012, 7:56:47 PM7/10/12
to
On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:58:04 AM UTC+2, casey wrote:
> However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
That's an odd twist on the predominant situation in which the hardware keeps working, essentially forever, while the software keeps self-destructing.
> However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
Smiler
Jul 10, 2012, 9:05:35 PM7/10/12
to
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
sbalneav
Jul 10, 2012, 9:19:32 PM7/10/12
to
casey <jgkj...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jul 11, 6:57 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
>> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> > On Jul 11, 1:08 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
>> >> [...]
>> >> You and I are well established: we know we're separate. That we don't know how
>> >> consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
>>
>> > Yes I understand that. But being "conscious you" is so unique.
>>
>> Yeah, there's only been one conscious me in history. And?
>>
>> > In what way am I also conscious like you.
>>
>> Seeing as how we're from the same species, I'm assuming that your consciousness
>> is, on some level, *similar* to mine.
>>
>> > *Your* subjective
>> > experience is *you*, not something you have that I also have.
>>
>> ....right. So?
>>
>> > The point is subtle I think and for the other person not to
>> > see it is give a "of course" response.
>>
>> It's not a subtle point. It's a basic point. Each person is an individual.
>> We even have a term for it: the Human Condition.
>
> As I wrote: When the other person doesn???t get it you will get
> On Jul 11, 6:57 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
>> casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> > On Jul 11, 1:08 am, sbalneav <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
>> >> [...]
>> >> You and I are well established: we know we're separate. That we don't know how
>> >> consciousness works doesn't preclude the fact that I am me and you are you.
>>
>> > Yes I understand that. But being "conscious you" is so unique.
>>
>> Yeah, there's only been one conscious me in history. And?
>>
>> > In what way am I also conscious like you.
>>
>> Seeing as how we're from the same species, I'm assuming that your consciousness
>> is, on some level, *similar* to mine.
>>
>> > *Your* subjective
>> > experience is *you*, not something you have that I also have.
>>
>> ....right. So?
>>
>> > The point is subtle I think and for the other person not to
>> > see it is give a "of course" response.
>>
>> It's not a subtle point. It's a basic point. Each person is an individual.
>> We even have a term for it: the Human Condition.
>
> an ???of course??? or in your case ?????? right. So????
It's not my fault you can't seem to articulate what you want to say. So far,
all I can discern that you're really talking about is:
1) We are all unique.
2) No one else can ever directly experience our "consciousness".
3) ?
4) PROFIT!
1 and 2 are well known to anyone who does about 5 minutes worth of
introspection in their life.
>> The word you're looking for is "Solipsism". Solipsism is the idea that
>> nothing else in the universe can actually be proved to exist, other than your
>> own mind. Most practical people generally punch solipsists then ask them why
>> they chose to imagine that they punched them.
>
> I take it as a working assumption that I am just a subsystem of the
> Universe.
black hole, or a cloud of dust, or a quasar, or anything else.
> clearly we don???t control what other people may or may not do.
We can have a pretty big influence over it, however. Loaded gun, anyone?
> I try to
> understand these questions from an objective point of view using
> computer
> analogies.
"brain" is hardware. There's simply no evidence that the two can be separated
with the with the rigid demarcation that exists in a computer. As I said
before, if you think there IS, then present the evidence.
> So, no solipsism isn???t what I am thinking.
Several back-and-forths later, I'm no closer to understanding what you're
thinking than I was before. Assuming you're a psycological zombie that
actually contains hardware running a rather badly written "Eliza" program is
beginning to become more attractive to me.
>> The other concept you're dancing
>> around is the concept of the psychological zombie: i.e. looks like it thinks,
>> acts like it thinks, responds to stimuli, but it's really just a mindless
>> drone running a very clever "stimulus/response" program. Again, a silly and
>> pointless view to hold.
>>
>> There is no logical separation between "mind" and "brain" that science has been
>> able to determine. The "mind" is a byproduct of the physical neuronal
>> structure of the brain, coupled with the electrochemical processes that the
>> brain cells themselves implement.
>
And again, we're back to your personal opinion. I also see you as a sentient
jellyfish swimming in plasma. WHAT I CAN ACTUALLY PRODUCE EVIDENCE FOR,
however, is a completely different matter. In a like manner, what you "see"
the mind is, is of little consequence. Can you actually EVIDENCE this? Or are
you just pulling new-age woo and moonbeams out your arse?
> Some interesting PET scan observations have been made on what parts
> of the brain are involved while learning a new task where we have to
> be conscious of what we want to do next and what parts of the brain
> conscious direction.
So how does that help you prove your thesis here?
>> Physical, chemical, or electromagnetic
>> forces can alter and/or terminate brain function, at which point, all evidence
>> currently suggests, the mind will be similarly altered or terminated. There
>> is no evidence that my "mind" can be separated from my "brain".
>
> Just as walking and legs cannot be separated.
the hard drive, and yank the bios chip, I've got PURE hardware. If I apply the
power, the clock will tick, the CPU will power on, but nothing will happen
because there's NO PROGRAM, but the bios still exists (separate from the
hardware), and I could, if I so desire, actually manually toggle the data and
address busses with switches, and program it *from memory*. In fact, that's
how I programmed my first computers; typing in series of binary digits as I
read them out of magazines/printouts.
You can't "turn off" your brain, wipe it, and reload it with "someone else".
Mind and Brain are linked, so all available evidence tells us.
So, again, what are you shooting for? If it's "I'm a computer running
software", then we've dealt with that. No, you're not. You can choose to
"see" yourself that way. You can also choose to "see" yourself as a giant
talking rabbit. What you actually ARE, however, is different.
>> Even if, in some far off science-fiction future, we could create computer
>> hardware that would mimic a human brain exactly enough to allow for some
>> fantastical "uploading" of my brain into the computer, that computer "brain"
>> wouldn't be *me*. It would be a COPY of me. And it would (quite quickly)
>> begin to change FROM me, as it began to experience new (and horrifying) things,
>> such as "waking up" in a computer.
>
> identifying
> with a perceived continuum.
Yeah, yeah, you never wade through the same stream twice. Wooooooooo. So
> with a perceived continuum.
what? I already stated this: we're a product of our experiences. There's
nothing mystical or magical about that. Are you saying there is?
>> Tell me: how do you think this rat's "experience" is?
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QPiF4-iu6g
>
> or even any physical reason to have subjective experience.
So, you *are* a solipsist.
> Not enough detail was given to even know what they were doing. Grand
> claims can be made over nothing much at all.
Look, casey. Don't just respond to what I've said. I want you to actually
take 10 or 15 minutes, hash over in your mind what it is you think is going on
between your "mind" and your brain, and then fill in the following sentence:
"I, casey, think that the relationship between the mind and the brain is:
_________________________________________________________________________"
but so long as you're going to keep going in this "I can't really articulate
what I mean but it's clear you don't understand what I'm saying" mode, it's
tough to actually address what you want to address.
--
__ _ | The question is not, Can they reason?
(_ |_) | nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?
__)|_) | -- Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) on animal rights
sbalneav
Jul 10, 2012, 9:23:39 PM7/10/12
to
--
__ _ | Freedom means learning to deal with being offended.
(_ |_) | -- Andrew Sullivan
__)|_) |
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 9:35:02 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 5:27 pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 6:38 pm, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 10, 5:20 am, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 10, 7:13 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > [...]
> > > > It's my opinion that the spirit within our bodies has no weight.
>
> > > There is no evidence for a soul.
>
> > > The soul is a mythical being like the angels that were invented
> > > to move the sun across the sky.
>
> > > The feeling of being a non-physical entity in the body is an illusion.
>
> > It is an outright lie invented by the religion to con the FOOLS.
>
> We now know there is no non-physical entity but at the time it
> wasn't meant as a lie, it is how it seemed to be, just as the
> Earth seemed to be flat and at rest.
Well, ancient people did invent those lies when they could not provide
rationales to their believe.
But, the flat earth and resting position was at least something real
and tangible.
The feeling of flatness and resting are common elements to the
believers and non-believers.
> On Jul 10, 6:38 pm, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 10, 5:20 am, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 10, 7:13 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > [...]
> > > > It's my opinion that the spirit within our bodies has no weight.
>
> > > There is no evidence for a soul.
>
> > > The soul is a mythical being like the angels that were invented
> > > to move the sun across the sky.
>
> > > The feeling of being a non-physical entity in the body is an illusion.
>
> > It is an outright lie invented by the religion to con the FOOLS.
>
> We now know there is no non-physical entity but at the time it
> wasn't meant as a lie, it is how it seemed to be, just as the
> Earth seemed to be flat and at rest.
Well, ancient people did invent those lies when they could not provide
rationales to their believe.
But, the flat earth and resting position was at least something real
and tangible.
The feeling of flatness and resting are common elements to the
believers and non-believers.
Richo
Jul 10, 2012, 7:13:06 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 9, 3:58 pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
The computer game - where does it "go" when the computer is broken
down for scrap metal?
> On Jul 9, 1:00 pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
> > >understand what we are before we die.
>
>
> > You rot and return to ambient temp.
>
>
> That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
>
> However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
And when the hardware is gone?
The computer game - where does it "go" when the computer is broken
down for scrap metal?
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 9:44:07 PM7/10/12
to
> <a7a4fd94-ec3a-40f7-ad5b-cf19b5e97...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
> > , "Syd
>
> > > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wr=
> > ote:
> > ohn 3:=3D
>
> > Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
> > BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
> > EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
> > skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
> > skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
>
> You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
This is the most stupid idiotic statement ever generated.
Why do you see SkyEyes coming under the control of your non-existing
pixie, especially when there is no evidence of any soul?
Even if your pixie is real, we will never allow ourselves to be part
of his evil regime, whether he likes it or not.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 11:58=A0pm, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 10, 3:02=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 10, 2:52=3DA0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>=
> > > On Jul 10, 3:02=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 10, 2:52=3DA0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > , "Syd
>
> > > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wr=
> > ote:
> > > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> > > > > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See J=
> > > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> > ohn 3:=3D
> > > > > 16
>
> > > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > > be dead. =A0Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > > > > NOT a virtue.
>
> > > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
> > > Define "spirit body."
>
> > ...and show evidence that such a thing exists, please.
>
> > > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > > be dead. =A0Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > > > > NOT a virtue.
>
> > > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
> > > Define "spirit body."
>
>
> > Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
> > BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
> > EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
> > skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
> > skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
>
> You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
This is the most stupid idiotic statement ever generated.
Why do you see SkyEyes coming under the control of your non-existing
pixie, especially when there is no evidence of any soul?
Even if your pixie is real, we will never allow ourselves to be part
of his evil regime, whether he likes it or not.
Smiler
Jul 10, 2012, 9:44:44 PM7/10/12
to
On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 16:32:13 -0700, casey wrote:
> On Jul 10, 8:44�am, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Carbon.
>
> True if you understand yourself only as your body.
>
> So do you think a brain transplant would leave that thinking feeling you
> intact?
I assume that by 'feeling' you refer to emotions and not physical feeling.
Think of it in terms of a 'body transplant' for your brain (the "you") and
your question becomes meaningless. It then is no different (except in
scale and techniques) from a heart transplant. Does a heart transplant
patient (the whole thinking, feeling "you") feel or think any differently
(apart from feeling a whole lot better <G>) after the transplant? Of
course not. Then why should a brain (the "you") transplanted into another
body feel or think any differently?
> On Jul 10, 8:44�am, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Carbon.
>>
>> > can be answered if we
>> > understand what we are before we die.
>>
>> Carbon.
>> > can be answered if we
>> > understand what we are before we die.
>>
>
> True if you understand yourself only as your body.
>
> So do you think a brain transplant would leave that thinking feeling you
> intact?
I assume that by 'feeling' you refer to emotions and not physical feeling.
Think of it in terms of a 'body transplant' for your brain (the "you") and
your question becomes meaningless. It then is no different (except in
scale and techniques) from a heart transplant. Does a heart transplant
patient (the whole thinking, feeling "you") feel or think any differently
(apart from feeling a whole lot better <G>) after the transplant? Of
course not. Then why should a brain (the "you") transplanted into another
body feel or think any differently?
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 9:49:12 PM7/10/12
to
> <03df70a3-375e-4c7d-8ff2-c3bf0ec62...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, Yap
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
>
> The reason for that is because they don't speak english. Most jungle
You mean the jungle people also know there is such a thing as soul in
their own language?
Why do they pray to real thing such as sun, instead of any type of
idol?
Why do you think Christianity is universal when it was originated in
the Jewish community to con the public there and then?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 1:58=A0pm, casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 1:00=A0pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
>
> > > > casey <jgkjca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 1:00=A0pm, k.chelsea...@yahoo.com (Mittler Romney) wrote:
>
> > > > >What happens after we die can be answered if we
> > > > >understand what we are before we die.
>
>
> > > > You rot and return to ambient temp.
>
> > > That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
> > > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>
>
> > > That is what we observe happens to the body.
>
> > > However I see myself as a software program running on hardware.
>
> > Hardware and software are real things in human society.
> > The human body is real but there is no evidence for the unreal soul
> > which is just merely religious illusion.
>
> > Ask any jungle people, they don't even know the word soul.
>
>
> The reason for that is because they don't speak english. Most jungle
> people believe in some sort of God--even if it is the sun or a huge tree.
Why?
You mean the jungle people also know there is such a thing as soul in
their own language?
Why do they pray to real thing such as sun, instead of any type of
idol?
Why do you think Christianity is universal when it was originated in
the Jewish community to con the public there and then?
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 9:51:53 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 11, 3:35 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <jthu6r$o...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
> > "Jason" wrote in message
> In article <jthu6r$o...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
> >news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
>
> > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> > -----
>
> > How does one see when one is dead?
>
> Spirit bodies are able to see.
Why would there be spirit body when it could not be a separate entity
>
> > How does one see when one is dead?
>
> Spirit bodies are able to see.
when alive?
Religious idiots always use magical words to express themselves, for
the purpose to con.
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 9:53:34 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 11, 3:37 am, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
They walk or they fly?
> On Jul 10, 3:35 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > In article <jthu6r$o...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
> > > "Jason" wrote in message
> > >news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
>
> > > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> > > -----
>
> > > How does one see when one is dead?
>
> > Spirit bodies are able to see.
>
>
> > In article <jthu6r$o...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
> > > "Jason" wrote in message
> > >news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
>
> > > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> > > -----
>
> > > How does one see when one is dead?
>
> > Spirit bodies are able to see.
>
> Are they invisible? They can't see.
Do they have eyes? Brains?
They walk or they fly?
Seth lePod
Jul 10, 2012, 9:59:38 PM7/10/12
to
> <a7a4fd94-ec3a-40f7-ad5b-cf19b5e97...@lq16g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 11:58=A0pm, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
> > > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>=
> > , "Syd
>
> > > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wr=
> > ote:
> > > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> > > > > > You will find out that you are wrongon the day that you die. See J=
> > , "Syd
>
> > > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wr=
> > ote:
> > > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> > ohn 3:=3D
> > > > > 16
>
> > > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > > be dead. =A0Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > > > > NOT a virtue.
>
> > > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
:
> > > Define "spirit body."
> > ...and show evidence that such a thing exists, please.
:
> > > > > 16
>
> > > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > > be dead. =A0Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > > > > NOT a virtue.
>
> > > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
:
> > > Define "spirit body."
> > ...and show evidence that such a thing exists, please.
> You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
That is correct.
On the day that you die you will see Osiris removing your
heart and weighing it on a pair of scales against the Feather
of Ma'at. If the sins you've committed in this world are so heavy
that suyour heart outweighs the Feather of Ma'at, your soul
will be tossed to Ammut, the Eater of Souls, who will
devour it and thus condemn you to eternal death.
On the other hand, if your sins are not so heavy, you
will be granted admission to Duat, the Fertile Land,
for eternity.
Show me why I should choose your version over mine.
Mine's quite a bit more ancient.
Seth
Seth lePod
Jul 10, 2012, 9:55:13 PM7/10/12
to
> <d9267d14-5041-4909-9ae4-dc8fbc613...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Syd
>
> > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrot=
moments after one was stopped from getting adequate
oxygen, his ganglionic brain cells, followed by certain
regions of his brain stem, died. All aerobic processes
stopped. The cells in his retina began to clump. The
catabolic enzymes which had been held in check began to
turn his body to mush, rotting it from the inside out.
There are just a few of the "major differences" between
your two twins.
:
when all it turned out we need to tell us the truth
about these matters was a writer of dictionary
definitions?
I looked up "Duat". It said:
"The Duat is a vast area under the Earth...It is
the region through which the sun god Ra travels
from west to east during the night"
Hey, it's in the dictionary, so it must be true.
Won't all the astronomers be so surprised!
Seth
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 3:02=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 10, 2:52=3DA0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, =
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 3:02=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 10, 2:52=3DA0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > "Syd
>
> > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3D3DA0am, BroilJAB <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrot=
> > e:
> > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> > > > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you die. See Joh=
> > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> > n 3:=3D
> > > > 16
>
> > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > be dead. =A0Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > > > NOT a virtue.
>
> > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
:
> Define "spirit body."
:
> > > > 16
>
> > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > be dead. =A0Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > > > NOT a virtue.
>
> > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
:
> Define "spirit body."
> Let's say that one twin brother dies in a car accident. The other twin
> brother is still alive. The only major different between those two twin
> brothers is that one of them has his spirit body inside of his physical
> body and the other twin brother has his physical body in the casket and
> his spirit body in heaven or hell.
What? The "major difference" between the two is that
> brother is still alive. The only major different between those two twin
> brothers is that one of them has his spirit body inside of his physical
> body and the other twin brother has his physical body in the casket and
> his spirit body in heaven or hell.
moments after one was stopped from getting adequate
oxygen, his ganglionic brain cells, followed by certain
regions of his brain stem, died. All aerobic processes
stopped. The cells in his retina began to clump. The
catabolic enzymes which had been held in check began to
turn his body to mush, rotting it from the inside out.
There are just a few of the "major differences" between
your two twins.
:
> I looked up "spirit" in my dictionary and it says:
:
> "a supernatural being or essence that gives life to a human being."
Oh good. Why have either theologians or scientists
:
> "a supernatural being or essence that gives life to a human being."
when all it turned out we need to tell us the truth
about these matters was a writer of dictionary
definitions?
I looked up "Duat". It said:
"The Duat is a vast area under the Earth...It is
the region through which the sun god Ra travels
from west to east during the night"
Hey, it's in the dictionary, so it must be true.
Won't all the astronomers be so surprised!
Seth
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 9:56:03 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 11, 3:36 am, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 3:01 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> > Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB
>
> > give up their dead" and "In sure and certain *hope* of the _resurrection_
> > to eternal life."?
>
> > > No signs of "spirit bodies" there, is there?
>
> > > No, it's more a "dawn of the dead" thing. And "Sure and certain hope"
The level of understanding exhibited by Jason is amazingly shallow,
would you agree?
> On Jul 10, 3:01 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> > Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > > In article
>
> > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Syd
> > > > > > In article
>
> > <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB
> > <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> > > > > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you
> > die. See John 3:=
> > > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
>
> > > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
>
> > > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
>
> > > > > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you
> > > > > 16
>
> > > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > > be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
>
> > > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > > NOT a virtue.
>
> > > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
> > > So why does the traditional Burial service speak of "The graves will
>
> > > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
>
> > give up their dead" and "In sure and certain *hope* of the _resurrection_
> > to eternal life."?
>
> > > No signs of "spirit bodies" there, is there?
>
> > > No, it's more a "dawn of the dead" thing. And "Sure and certain hope"
>
> > souds like a contradiction in terms to me.
>
> > souds like a contradiction in terms to me.
>
> > There are also lots of scriptures about heaven and hell.
>
> There are lots of Superman comics.
>
The level of understanding exhibited by Jason is amazingly shallow,
would you agree?
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 10:02:58 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 11, 5:24 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <a73a6a15-3451-4a82...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> In article <a73a6a15-3451-4a82...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:01:07 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:01:07 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > >
>
>
> > > > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > >
>
into heaven and hell but not you fool at your present time?
And it was during that time that dead people could raise again while
you fool could not do so when you die now?
You have a mentality of a 3 year old child.
Seth lePod
Jul 10, 2012, 10:04:09 PM7/10/12
to
On Jul 10, 12:01 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > >
>
> <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
> "Syd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > >
> > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB
> <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> > > > >
> > > > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you
> > > >
> > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > > > NOT a virtue.
Not really.
There are a number that mention heaven, but very few
that are "about heaven", in the sense of describing
what heaven is actually supposed to be like.
Don't believe me? Try citing half a dozen scriptures
that tell you what being in heaven is like.
Here, I'll start you off with one:
In the center, around the throne, were four living
creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in
front and in back.
Yuch! "Covered with eyes front and back" indeed.
There goes the damn neighborhood.
The first living creature was like a lion, the
second was like an ox, the third had a face like a
man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.
I do hope these are the good mutants, like the X-Men.
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and
was covered with eyes all around, even under its
wings.
Eyes under their wings. Aw jeez...
Day and night they never stop saying:
Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.
Get that? "Day and night", they "never stop singing".
The same thing, over and over and over and over, for
ever and ever and ever and ever, without stopping.
It's like being trapped in a bus station with giant
mutant Hari Krishnas ... for eternity.
So: that's what you have your sights set on?
Why?
Seth
> In article <c8387dda-dc0b-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > In article
> Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 10 July 2012 08:02:36 UTC+1, Jason wrote:
> > > <00857abd-a0d9-40ed-a2bd-6a5fbab8a...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 10, 2:52=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > >
>
> <0a7c43ab-d9da-4a35-9eed-0ee8a4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
> "Syd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > >
> > > > > M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:57=3DA0am, BroilJAB
> <DesignDen...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Jope Virgil said,
> > > > > > > The soul is the real you,the body is
> > > > > > > just a shell .If you die as an
> > > > > > > atheist ,eternal torments await.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > BroilJAB said,
> > > > > > > The atheist chooses his final estate.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nope.
> > > > > > You die, and nature returns you to the earth.
> > > > >
> > > > > You will find out that you are wrong on the day that you
> die. See John 3:=
> > > > 16
> > > >
> > > > No one will find out a thing when they die, because they'll
> > > > be dead. Despite what you've heard in church, stupidity is
> > > > NOT a virtue.
>
> > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > Yes, you are correct--your physical body will DIE but your spirit body
> > > will end up in heaven or in hell.
>
>
> > So why does the traditional Burial service speak of "The graves will
>
> give up their dead" and "In sure and certain *hope* of the _resurrection_
> to eternal life."?
>
> > No signs of "spirit bodies" there, is there?
>
> > No, it's more a "dawn of the dead" thing. And "Sure and certain hope"
>
>
> give up their dead" and "In sure and certain *hope* of the _resurrection_
> to eternal life."?
>
> > No signs of "spirit bodies" there, is there?
>
> > No, it's more a "dawn of the dead" thing. And "Sure and certain hope"
>
> souds like a contradiction in terms to me.
>
:
> There are also lots of scriptures about heaven and hell.
Scriptures about heaven?
>
:
> There are also lots of scriptures about heaven and hell.
Not really.
There are a number that mention heaven, but very few
that are "about heaven", in the sense of describing
what heaven is actually supposed to be like.
Don't believe me? Try citing half a dozen scriptures
that tell you what being in heaven is like.
Here, I'll start you off with one:
In the center, around the throne, were four living
creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in
front and in back.
Yuch! "Covered with eyes front and back" indeed.
There goes the damn neighborhood.
The first living creature was like a lion, the
second was like an ox, the third had a face like a
man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.
I do hope these are the good mutants, like the X-Men.
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and
was covered with eyes all around, even under its
wings.
Eyes under their wings. Aw jeez...
Day and night they never stop saying:
Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.
Get that? "Day and night", they "never stop singing".
The same thing, over and over and over and over, for
ever and ever and ever and ever, without stopping.
It's like being trapped in a bus station with giant
mutant Hari Krishnas ... for eternity.
So: that's what you have your sights set on?
Why?
Seth
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 10:08:22 PM7/10/12
to
> <55a48b1e-7df1-4c33-a65a-3a261218a...@t20g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
You think sane human will have to be connected to your con religion
which is evil?
>
> Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 2:56=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> > No one sees fuckall on the day they die.
>
> Don't be shocked on your judgement day.
You are treating your imagination as real, sucker.
> Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 2:56=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> > No one sees fuckall on the day they die.
>
> Don't be shocked on your judgement day.
You think sane human will have to be connected to your con religion
which is evil?
Mitchell Holman
Jul 10, 2012, 10:10:39 PM7/10/12
to
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-10071...@67-150-123-190.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
And to keep scavenging mammals away from
the decaying bodies.
Whereas Jews bury their dead - and in a
hurry, coming from a desert culture.
Which is right? Is there even a "right"?
news:Jason-10071...@67-150-123-190.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
the decaying bodies.
Whereas Jews bury their dead - and in a
hurry, coming from a desert culture.
Which is right? Is there even a "right"?
Yap
Jul 10, 2012, 10:10:20 PM7/10/12
to
> <6b6a6c6e-acb1-4395-a5a6-d9554c981...@b1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, Father
our human society but you have to insist that we are part of their
evil grouping after death?
>
> Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 3:35=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > In article <jthu6r$o...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
> > > > "Jason" =A0wrote in message
> > > >news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
>
> > > > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> > > > -----
>
> > > > How does one see when one is dead?
>
> > > Spirit bodies are able to see.
>
> > Are they invisible? They can't see.
>
> They may be invisible to you but can easily be seen by angels, by other
> people that are in heaven and by Jesus and God.
Oh, why are all these angels, jesus, god, satan, etc not coming into
> Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 3:35=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > In article <jthu6r$o...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Tim" <a...@b.com> wrote:
> > > > "Jason" =A0wrote in message
> > > >news:Jason-10071...@66-53-223-162.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com...
>
> > > > You will see the evidence on the day that you die.
>
> > > > -----
>
> > > > How does one see when one is dead?
>
> > > Spirit bodies are able to see.
>
> > Are they invisible? They can't see.
>
> They may be invisible to you but can easily be seen by angels, by other
> people that are in heaven and by Jesus and God.
our human society but you have to insist that we are part of their
evil grouping after death?
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