Original Sin
ML
but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
Lemuel K. Washburn
Hamlett-Waller
> The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
> but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
But didn't Adam take a wizz in God's allotment a while before the fruit debacle?
God's got to get his priorities straight - someone urinating on his prize
winning orchids, or two half-wits eating a fruit from the "naughty tree".
--
Ben.
http://www.8op.com/sulfa/
http://www.8op.com/sulfa/coab.html
If there's one thing that fuels the Atheists
contempt for religion, it's the assumption that
we arrived to the conclusion of godlessness
without prior significant thought.
crit
ML <m...@noemailprovided.com> wrote in message
news:_DB06.3047$lU6.5...@news.uswest.net...
> The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
> but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
Helpu
translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have chosen to
do wrong
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>ML <m...@noemailprovided.com> wrote in message
>news:_DB06.3047$lU6.5...@news.uswest.net...
>> The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
>> but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
>translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have chosen to
>do wrong
The problem of evil. And no one has an answer for it - not even you.
--
Al - Unnumbered Atheist #infinity
aklein at villagenet dot com
ML
Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Thank God, I'm still an Atheist.
-Luis Buñuel-
"crit" <joe...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:920lm8$13ui$3...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
hrgr...@my-deja.com
forbidden it and if you had told me 2) that disobeying you is wrong ....
HRG.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Thomas P.
Great! You do understand. God gave them a choice that he did not
have to give - he could have made it impossible for them to even see
the tree. He knew what they were going to do with the choice, but
gave it to them anyway. Reportedly he tells us to avoid the occasions
of sin, but he delibrately provided such an occasion for Adam and Eve
and continues to do so to this day for the rest of mankind. He sounds
like a boobie. Maybe that is why so many of his followers are
boobies; they are made in his image.
Thomas P.
Earle Jones
<m...@noemailprovided.com> wrote:
> Is God willing to prevent evil but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing?
> Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing?
> Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
>
> Thank God, I'm still an Atheist.
> -Luis Buñuel-
*
That quote predates Buñuel by a bit:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
--Epicurus
earle
*
crit
Earle Jones <edj...@ispchannel.com> wrote in message news:edjones-
> > Is God willing to prevent evil but not able?
> > Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing?
> > Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing?
> > Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Helpu
But you forgot something..
God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
righteous purpose.
crit
Thomas P. <ton...@get2net.dk> wrote in message
news:3a446a6c...@news.get2net.dk...
> >Helpu
> >translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have chosen
to
> >do wrong
> >
> >
>
> Great! You do understand. God gave them a choice that he did not
> have to give - he could have made it impossible for them to even see
> the tree. He knew what they were going to do with the choice, but
> gave it to them anyway. Reportedly he tells us to avoid the occasions
> of sin, but he delibrately provided such an occasion for Adam and Eve
> and continues to do so to this day for the rest of mankind. He sounds
> like a boobie. Maybe that is why so many of his followers are
> boobies; they are made in his image.
>
Helpu
the choice is necessary, for without the choice there is no love and without
love their is no relationship and lasting contentedment for eternity
hey, anyone who doesnt want the choice to sin anymore just has to come to
God and seal him by the Holy Spirit and from that point on they can never be
separated from God just as the angels were/are sealed in their state for
eternity
crit
<hrgr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:921p7k$puv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
lU6.5...@news.uswest.net...
> > > The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
> > > but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
> >
> > Helpu
> > translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have
> chosen to
> > do wrong
> >
> Correct translation: If you hadn't 1) arbitrarily and capriciously
> forbidden it and if you had told me 2) that disobeying you is wrong ....
Helpu
assumptions;
1. God was capricious in giving them a choice
2. they didnt know it was wrong by virtue of the direct command
3. if they were told that it was wrong that they wouldve obeyed
crit
Al Klein <ruk...@pern.org> wrote in message
news:s4784tcavbu4j8r31...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:48:14 -0500, "crit" <joe...@prodigy.net> posted
> in alt.atheism:
>
> >ML <m...@noemailprovided.com> wrote in message
> >news:_DB06.3047$lU6.5...@news.uswest.net...
> >> The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
> >> but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
>
> >translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have chosen
to
> >do wrong
>
> The problem of evil. And no one has an answer for it - not even you.
Helpu
the choice actually motivates us away from GOd and then back to GOd
....sometimes or in the case of those that repent
John Burton
"crit" <job...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:923b46$2big$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Is GOd related to JESUs? Or SATAn?
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.org> wrote in message
>news:s4784tcavbu4j8r31...@4ax.com...
>> The problem of evil. And no one has an answer for it - not even you.
>the choice actually motivates us away from GOd and then back to GOd
>....sometimes or in the case of those that repent
What choice? If you don't know what 'problem of evil' means, ask,
don't ASSume.
hrgr...@my-deja.com
"crit" <job...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> <hrgr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:921p7k$puv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> lU6.5...@news.uswest.net...
> > > > The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
> > > > but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
> > >
> > > Helpu
> > > translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have
> > chosen to
> > > do wrong
> > >
> > Correct translation: If you hadn't 1) arbitrarily and capriciously
> > forbidden it and if you had told me 2) that disobeying you is
wrong ....
>
> Helpu
> assumptions;
> 1. God was capricious in giving them a choice
1a. God was capricious in forbidding them to eat from the famous tree.
Do you know the expression "Gessler's Hat" ?
HRG.
> 2. they didnt know it was wrong by virtue of the direct command
> 3. if they were told that it was wrong that they wouldve obeyed
>
>
Tim Carter
If you have children, you should understand why God does what He does... If
you know what is best for your child, then why would you give them a choice,
especially if you know that they will inevitably choose the wrong one? A
good parent allows their children to make mistakes; mistakes are a part of
life, without making mistakes we do not learn. If you make a choice that
turns out to be detrimental, then you learn - and (hopefully) don't make
that same choice again.
How can you look at creation and say, "There is no Creator" ?
If life on earth "evolved", then why did it "evolve" on earth instead of
Mars, or some other planet in the universe?
Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to talk?
What about my cat?
How can you say "There is no God" - when miracles happen everyday ?
Tim C.
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>Earle Jones <edj...@ispchannel.com> wrote in message news:edjones-
>> > Is God willing to prevent evil but not able?
>> > Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing?
>> > Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing?
>> > Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
>But you forgot something..
>God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
>righteous purpose.
Then the fact that he doesn't makes him malevolent.
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>assumptions;
>1. God was capricious in giving them a choice
He didn't 'give' them any choice. Either they had free will, or they
didn't, and that depends on the nature of space/time, not on god.
>2. they didnt know it was wrong by virtue of the direct command
Since they didn't know right from wrong, they couldn't know that
something was wrong.
>3. if they were told that it was wrong that they wouldve obeyed
If they were told, they would have been able to make an informed
choice. As it was, any choice they may have made was an UNinformed
choice.
Puzzling Evidence
>
>How can you look at creation and say, "There is no Creator" ?
With two eyes.
>If life on earth "evolved", then why did it "evolve" on earth instead of
>Mars, or some other planet in the universe?
It's a near certainty that life *has* evolved elsewhere (and possibly on Mars,
too).
>Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to talk?
>What about my cat?
No, they'll die in less than fifteen years.
>How can you say "There is no God" - when miracles happen everyday ?
Name even *one*.
--
Puzzling Evidence - puzzling...@my-deja.com - Anonymized for your protection
--
dotcom
<job...@prodigy.net> wrote:
And his overall righteous purpose includes sending all but one in a
million people to eternal torture. No thank you.
--
dotcom, atheist #1469, BAAWA, off...
yes, I am an atheist, and no, I don't want to hear about jeeezus
e-mail about my newsgroup posts may be posted to that newsgroup
There is no god worth our worship. - Martin Schlottmann
dotcom
<m...@noemailprovided.com> wrote:
> The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
> but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
And the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil grew in the Garden of Eden,
which was god's garden, so the original sin is god's, but we're carrying
the burden for him.
That's certainly a novel theology. Have you considered talking to your
pastor/priest/minister/imam/whatever about this?
Thomas P.
>
>Thomas P. <ton...@get2net.dk> wrote in message
>news:3a446a6c...@news.get2net.dk...
>> >Helpu
>> >translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have chosen
>to
>> >do wrong
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Great! You do understand. God gave them a choice that he did not
>> have to give - he could have made it impossible for them to even see
>> the tree. He knew what they were going to do with the choice, but
>> gave it to them anyway. Reportedly he tells us to avoid the occasions
>> of sin, but he delibrately provided such an occasion for Adam and Eve
>> and continues to do so to this day for the rest of mankind. He sounds
>> like a boobie. Maybe that is why so many of his followers are
>> boobies; they are made in his image.
>>
>
>
>Helpu
>the choice is necessary, for without the choice there is no love and without
>love
Who says?
their is no relationship and lasting contentedment for eternity
Or hell and eternal torture.
>hey, anyone who doesnt want the choice to sin anymore just has to come to
>God and seal him by the Holy Spirit and from that point on they can never be
>separated from God just as the angels were/are sealed in their state for
>eternity
We are made in his image, right? It is only right to rape, kill,
burn, steal etc. Otherwise god will think we don't want to be like
him.
>
>
>
Thomas P.
Thomas P.
wrote:
>
>"Thomas P." <ton...@get2net.dk> wrote in message
>news:3a446a6c...@news.get2net.dk...
>> On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:48:14 -0500, "crit" <joe...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >ML <m...@noemailprovided.com> wrote in message
>> >news:_DB06.3047$lU6.5...@news.uswest.net...
>> >> The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
>> >> but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> >Helpu
>> >translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have chosen
>to
>> >do wrong
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Great! You do understand. God gave them a choice that he did not
>> have to give - he could have made it impossible for them to even see
>> the tree. He knew what they were going to do with the choice, but
>> gave it to them anyway. Reportedly he tells us to avoid the occasions
>> of sin, but he delibrately provided such an occasion for Adam and Eve
>> and continues to do so to this day for the rest of mankind. He sounds
>> like a boobie. Maybe that is why so many of his followers are
>> boobies; they are made in his image.
>>
>>
>> Thomas P.
>>
>>
>>
>
>If you have children, you should understand why God does what He does...
Do you leave a gun in the same room with your child and tell him not
to play with it?
If
>you know what is best for your child, then why would you give them a choice,
>especially if you know that they will inevitably choose the wrong one?
I don't. My child grows up and takes responsibility for his actions.
Unlike god I do not provide the evil consequences for my son's wrong
choices. I am not the one to pull the trigger of the gun. God is the
one who kicked his children out of paradise.
A
>good parent allows their children to make mistakes; mistakes are a part of
>life, without making mistakes we do not learn. If you make a choice that
>turns out to be detrimental, then you learn - and (hopefully) don't make
>that same choice again.
True enough. I, however, do not provide the evil consequences; they
come from the poor choice itself - shooting a gun, playing with fire
etc.
>
>How can you look at creation and say, "There is no Creator" ?
You have not established there was a creation. If everything has to
come from something else, where did god come from?
>
>If life on earth "evolved", then why did it "evolve" on earth instead of
>Mars, or some other planet in the universe?
How do you know it didn't?
>
>Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to talk?
>What about my cat?
Talking about evolution: Do crackers go well with tomato soup?
>
>How can you say "There is no God" - when miracles happen everyday ?
See question above.
>
>
>Tim C.
>
>
Thomas P.
Uncle Judas
where to begin...
In article <t4b8195...@corp.supernews.com>, smi...@azalea.net says...
> If you have children, you should understand why God does what He does... If
> you know what is best for your child, then why would you give them a choice,
> especially if you know that they will inevitably choose the wrong one? A
> good parent allows their children to make mistakes; mistakes are a part of
> life, without making mistakes we do not learn. If you make a choice that
> turns out to be detrimental, then you learn - and (hopefully) don't make
> that same choice again.
Wait, when would we (according to your mythology) ever be able
to make that mistake again? Yes, I allow my kids room to make
mistakes, but I don't allow them to step out in front of a
speeding bus. They would learn nothing by dying.
> How can you look at creation and say, "There is no Creator" ?
Easy, there is no credible evidence for your creator.
He's just like Santa Claus, popular mythology.
> If life on earth "evolved", then why did it "evolve" on earth instead of
> Mars, or some other planet in the universe?
How can you be sure it didn't?
> Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to talk?
> What about my cat?
Your dog already speaks to other dogs, your cat already speaks
to other cats. Humans are no different.
> How can you say "There is no God" - when miracles happen everyday ?
While it may be a miracle that you have the brain power to type,
I don't attribute it to gawd.
Uncle Judas
crit
Uncle Judas <uncle...@christianzone.org> wrote in message
news:925cpb$s7u$0...@dosa.alt.net...
> There is so much wrong with this, I'm not sure
> where to begin...
>
> In article <t4b8195...@corp.supernews.com>, smi...@azalea.net says...
>
> > If you have children, you should understand why God does what He does...
If
> > you know what is best for your child, then why would you give them a
choice,
> > especially if you know that they will inevitably choose the wrong one?
A
> > good parent allows their children to make mistakes; mistakes are a part
of
> > life, without making mistakes we do not learn. If you make a choice
that
> > turns out to be detrimental, then you learn - and (hopefully) don't make
> > that same choice again.
>
> Wait, when would we (according to your mythology) ever be able
> to make that mistake again? Yes, I allow my kids room to make
> mistakes, but I don't allow them to step out in front of a
> speeding bus. They would learn nothing by dying.
>
Helpu
people arent children of GOd unless they are born again of His SPirit. Until
then they are children of satan
crit
Helpu
God gives and takes life as He wills, as creator He alone has this right
God cant steal for all things belong to Him
God gave no command to rape
crit
dotcom <dot...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:dotcom-92DC26....@enews.newsguy.com...
> > God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
> > righteous purpose.
>
> And his overall righteous purpose includes sending all but one in a
> million people to eternal torture. No thank you.
Helpu
what if God sent 60% of people to heaven and 40% to hell? Would that be fair
to you?
Jotun
> > Mars, or some other planet in the universe?
If in fact the conditions for life were better on Mars, life should evolve
there first. Then we would all be Martians. But we would probably call
what is currently know as Mars Earth, and what is known as Earth something
else. Okay, we probabaly wouldn't be "human" as we know it, but that's what
we we'd call ourselves.
We most probably evolved on this planet because conditions were conducive to
evolution. If another planet also has good conditions, life will evolve
there too. You're question is insane. Your question is insane. The best
answer would be "because we are here".
> > Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to
talk?
> > What about my cat?
Evolution isn't about talking. It isn't about intelligence. It's about
survival. Evolution has no "direction".
If talking to man would dramatically increase the survival rate of dogs,
then yes, one day dogs "might" talk. But I think man likes dogs more the
way they are right now, so it's not gonna happen. Dogs are surviving pretty
well.
Let me take this further:
If we look exclusively at domestic dogs (ie excluding wild dogs), then dogs
will evolve to fit man's needs. So some breeds will evolve to be better
guard / policedogs, while others will evolve to work better with children,
or just to be plain cute.
I'm boosting my ego by bashing a person with an IQ of 78. It's kinda like
challenging a quadriplegic to a 100 m sprint, and then laughing at him when
he loses. How sick of me.
Thomas P.
No one who ever lived deserved eternal punishment. The idea is
grotesque in the extreme.
Thomas P.
Thomas P.
Then there was no reason for god, the loving father, to give other
people's children a learning experience. He should stick with his own
kids - what a busybody!
>
>
>
>> > How can you look at creation and say, "There is no Creator" ?
>>
>> Easy, there is no credible evidence for your creator.
>> He's just like Santa Claus, popular mythology.
>>
>> > If life on earth "evolved", then why did it "evolve" on earth instead of
>> > Mars, or some other planet in the universe?
>>
>> How can you be sure it didn't?
>>
>> > Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to
>talk?
>> > What about my cat?
>>
>> Your dog already speaks to other dogs, your cat already speaks
>> to other cats. Humans are no different.
>>
>> > How can you say "There is no God" - when miracles happen everyday ?
>>
>> While it may be a miracle that you have the brain power to type,
>> I don't attribute it to gawd.
>>
>> Uncle Judas
>>
>>
>
>
Thomas P.
Thomas P.
I agree that god gave no command to rape. The Bible says that he did
however.
Thomas P.
Earle Jones
<job...@prodigy.net> wrote:
*
You had better read your Bible, dude.
"Straight and narrow be the way,
and few be those who find it."
None of this 60:40 shit.
earle
*
Earle Jones
[...]
>
> Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to
> talk?
> What about my cat?
*
Your dog *can* talk, and you should hear what he's saying about you.
earle
*
"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is
the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no
principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can
demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."
--Thomas Paine
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>people arent children of GOd unless they are born again of His SPirit. Until
>then they are children of satan
Since god makes all things (he says so), blame him for that.
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>God gave no command to rape
You still haven't shown that the Amalekite girl-children gave consent,
and absent EXPLICIT consent, sex is rape.
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>dotcom <dot...@alltel.net> wrote in message
>news:dotcom-92DC26....@enews.newsguy.com...
>> > God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
>> > righteous purpose.
>> And his overall righteous purpose includes sending all but one in a
>> million people to eternal torture. No thank you.
>what if God sent 60% of people to heaven and 40% to hell? Would that be fair
>to you?
That's not the case, so it's really just a non sequitur.
Al Klein
>How can you look at creation and say, "There is no Creator" ?
How can you look at the universe and claim that it's a 'creation'?
>If life on earth "evolved", then why did it "evolve" on earth instead of
>Mars, or some other planet in the universe?
For the same reason it evolved in this universe, rather than in some
other universe.
>Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to talk?
>What about my cat?
Individuals don't evolve.
>How can you say "There is no God" - when miracles happen everyday ?
Name a few.
The fact that you don't understand 'god of the gaps' isn't one.
John Burton
I'll jump in and say that this would be fair:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he decreed that none should
perish, but that all should have everlasting life.
NRV (New Rational Version)
Paul Murray
news:920lm8$13ui$3...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Helpu
> translation: if you didnt give me a choice Lord God I wouldnt have chosen
to
> do wrong
How is sinless perfection in heaven supposed to work, do you suppose? Will
everyone get a free-will-ectomy? You can spend eternity being burned alive,
or as a zombie for the lord. Fun choice.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Repent! Quit your job! Slack off!
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pmurray
ICQ: 26066755
Paul Murray
> But you forgot something..
>
> God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
> righteous purpose.
But he still permits the original evil. So you are saying that God allows
evil in torder to accomplish his purposes. He is able but not willing to
prevent it, because it suits him to allow it.
LJlis
Tim Carter
"Jotun" <nin_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a467...@news1.mweb.co.za...
Please do not make assumptions about my IQ. I have made no assumption of
yours, I expect no less than the same...
"AND AS YE WOULD THAT MEN SHOULD DO TO YOU, DO YE ALSO TO THEM LIKEWISE." -
Luke 6:31
Tim Carter
"Puzzling Evidence" <puzzling...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5Bh16.50217$3j.44...@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
One miracle - that you are still alive, and God has not struck you
dead...........
Sorry, I'm being facetious.
Thomas P.
wrote:
>
Then you would be disappointed.
>"AND AS YE WOULD THAT MEN SHOULD DO TO YOU, DO YE ALSO TO THEM LIKEWISE." -
>Luke 6:31
Buddha actually - and he probably took it from and even older source.
>
>
>
>
Thomas P.
Paul Murray
news:t4b8195...@corp.supernews.com...
> If you have children, you should understand why God does what He does
I am not a child - I need no divine sky-daddy.
> How can you look at creation and say, "There is no Creator" ?
Because science had adequately accounted for what we see in nature without
resorting to the idea of an intelligent creator.
> If life on earth "evolved", then why did it "evolve" on earth instead of
> Mars, or some other planet in the universe?
Maybe it did. It's a case of "whereber you find yourself, that's where
you'll be".
> Speaking of evolution; Will my dog eventually develop the ability to talk?
> What about my cat?
Probably not. But if we breed them for intelligence for 100 million years
... maybe.
> How can you say "There is no God" - when miracles happen everyday ?
You have this on video?
SemperFiMac
or mis-stated, you can "train" dogs, but dogs do not evolve. Finally,
why take the low road and trash/bash someone when you don't need to take
that route. Show your intelligence by answering a question or "mistake"
you see and leave it at that.
Sam
"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments, or
they will become wise in their own estimation" Proverbs 26:5
> Let me take this further:
> If we look exclusively at domestic dogs (ie excluding wild dogs),
then dogs
> will evolve to fit man's needs. So some breeds will evolve to be
better
> guard / policedogs, while others will evolve to work better with
children,
> or just to be plain cute.
>
> I'm boosting my ego by bashing a person with an IQ of 78. It's kinda
like
> challenging a quadriplegic to a 100 m sprint, and then laughing at him
when
> he loses. How sick of me.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
SemperFiMac
evil, then there would be no possibility of free will. Without free
will, there would be no possibility of FREELY choosing to love God.
However, with that free will, comes the reality that you can freely
choose not to love God. If you did not know, do not know free will then
you would not be able to love fully and completely. So did God make
"SIN", no he made the possibility of sin. We realized sin when Adam and
Eve ate the fruit of the TOKOGAE. Adam and Eve could have chosen never
to eat the tree and they would have lived forever in the fullness of
God's love, but since they did, and were separated from God, and
realized what a mistake they made, there had to be reconciliation
between God and man and thats where Jesus dying on the cross for our
sins comes into play. Out of tragedy, God makes a way.
Sam
"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments, or
they will become wise in their own estimation." Proverbs 26:5
In article <dotcom-24BAA9....@enews.newsguy.com>,
dotcom <dot...@alltel.net> wrote:
> In article <_DB06.3047$lU6.5...@news.uswest.net>, "ML"
> <m...@noemailprovided.com> wrote:
>
> > The original sin was not in eating the forbidden fruit
> > but in planting the tree that bore the fruit.
>
> And the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil grew in the Garden of Eden,
> which was god's garden, so the original sin is god's, but we're
carrying
> the burden for him.
>
> That's certainly a novel theology. Have you considered talking to your
> pastor/priest/minister/imam/whatever about this?
>
> --
> dotcom, atheist #1469, BAAWA, off...
> yes, I am an atheist, and no, I don't want to hear about jeeezus
> e-mail about my newsgroup posts may be posted to that newsgroup
> There is no god worth our worship. - Martin Schlottmann
Al Klein
>Please do not make assumptions about my IQ. I have made no assumption of
>yours, I expect no less than the same...
>"AND AS YE WOULD THAT MEN SHOULD DO TO YOU, DO YE ALSO TO THEM LIKEWISE." -
>Luke 6:31
If you still haven't figured out that unsolicited bible quoting in
alt.atheism is a no-no, it doesn't say much about your IQ.
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>"Puzzling Evidence" <puzzling...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:5Bh16.50217$3j.44...@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
>> In article <t4b8195...@corp.supernews.com>, "Tim Carter"
><smi...@azalea.net> wrote:
>> >How can you say "There is no God" - when miracles happen everyday ?
>> Name even *one*.
>One miracle - that you are still alive, and God has not struck you
>dead...........
>Sorry, I'm being facetious.
And you're assuming your conclusion.
Paul Murray
news:20001225235440...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> where does it say
> "Straight and narrow be the way,
> and few be those who find it."?
Don't any of you christains own a bible?
Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is
the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto
life, and few there be that find it.
God is going to send the bulk of humanity to be burnt alive forever in hell.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is
poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be
tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in
the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they
have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and
whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Thomas P.
<sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Without the possibility of sin, i.e. the tree of knowledge of good and
>evil, then there would be no possibility of free will.
Assuming there was such a thing as free will, explain why good and
evil would be a necessary component.
Without free
>will, there would be no possibility of FREELY choosing to love God.
So?
>However, with that free will, comes the reality that you can freely
>choose not to love God. If you did not know, do not know free will then
>you would not be able to love fully and completely. So did God make
>"SIN", no he made the possibility of sin.
For absolutely no good reason, unless you can explain why it is
necessary for both good and evil to exist before there can be free
will. After that you can explain how free will is possible at all.
We realized sin when Adam and
>Eve ate the fruit of the TOKOGAE. Adam and Eve could have chosen never
>to eat the tree and they would have lived forever in the fullness of
>God's love, but since they did, and were separated from God, and
>realized what a mistake they made, there had to be reconciliation
>between God and man and thats where Jesus dying on the cross for our
>sins comes into play. Out of tragedy, God makes a way.
Of course god could have just forgiven them instantly, or he could
have made sure they never got close to the tree like any good parent
would have done. I used to have a gun in my house because of my work.
I made very sure that my 1 year old son never got close to that
weapon, because I knew the probable consequences if he did.
Apparently I am more caring than your sky daddy.
>
>Sam
>
>"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments, or
>they will become wise in their own estimation." Proverbs 26:5
Talking about fools, using the Bible to convince atheists is pure
foolishness.
snip
Thomas P.
SemperFiMac
Al, why take the low road and trash/bash someone when you don't need to
take that route. Show your intelligence by answering a relevant
question or "mistake" you see and leave it at that.
Sam
"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments, or
they will become wise in their own estimation" Proverbs 26:5
SemperFiMac
Good and evil are not necessary components, they are just components.
There does not have to be a good that fights evil, or an evil fighting
good. When pride came into Lucifer's heart and he wanted to be an equal
to God, he began a "hostile takeover" of heaven. Since this
did not work, due to the fact that he was thrown out of heaven
and onto earth, making earth his "kingdom", we now have this
evil or separation from God which began on earth with Adam and
Eve eating of the fruit, this separation is something that we feel to
this very day. Our spirit has a want/need to be connected to something,
and that something is God. However, most people connect with some
things other than God and some of those connections, not all, end up
hurting us in the long run. Now to show that they are both just
components and not necessary components, evil was not part of the world
before Lucifer's actions, and it will not be a part of the world when
the 1,000 year reign ends and we live with Christ in eternity.
Now, since we have this separation from God, God COULD just zap us with
his magic wand, or whatever you want to think that he has, and reunite
us with him. However, just like your one year old son, you would have
to constantly do that since we constantly sin. Besides, if he did that
for us, without us asking, then it is not free will, it would be his
will cleansing us before we even ask. Once we understand that we have
to recognize the state we are in, not the actual state like California,
but the state of separateness from Christ due to our sin, we can
recognize that there are two roads, either to choose Him and forgo our
sinful ways, or to continue our sinful habits and push Him to the side.
Those are the choices that each person has/has had since the beginning
of time.
Sam
"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments, or
they will become wise in their own estimation." Proverbs 26:5
One final thought, being that you are an atheist, if there WAS objective
evidence would you believe, or would you hang your hat on something else
so you wouldn't have to believe in God? Here's to praying that you find
what you are truly looking for.
Fox Mulder
This thread appears to be off topic for
alt.religion.christian.boston-church, which is chartered to discuss a specific
cult. Please adjust your links, Thx IA... ... ...
Al Klein wrote:
--
______________________
Fox Mulder AKA Lewis Johnson
DID 360.750.0314
FAX 360.750.9150
lewjo...@uswest.net
ICQ 1363586 <--For lurkers that need to talk--<<
http://www.geocities.com/lewjohnson.geo/icc/
______________________
My old church welcomes all denominations,
but mainly they prefer twenties and fifties.
Chasman
> Of course god could have just forgiven them instantly, or he could
> have made sure they never got close to the tree like any good parent
> would have done. I used to have a gun in my house because of my work.
> I made very sure that my 1 year old son never got close to that
> weapon, because I knew the probable consequences if he did.
> Apparently I am more caring than your sky daddy.
>
Actually, I'll bet you were afraid for your own life more than anything
else.........
Seriously, if you choose to be an atheist/agnostic, then it's your choice.
You will also have to bear the consequences of those choices. I know when I
make mistakes, I have to live with the results as well.
What do you have to look forward to? I'll bet you are just overjoyed at the
fact that you will get to spend eternity in a pine box - oh goodie!
As far as caring goes, God has cared for me and shown His love for me in
every aspect of my life. Are you claiming ignorance for not being able to
see it in your own life? Do you think that you actually have control of your
own life? Every breath you take is a gift from God - I hope your eyes will
be opened before you take your last one.........
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13
Steve Knight
<sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
snip
>Now, since we have this separation from God, God COULD just zap us with
>his magic wand, or whatever you want to think that he has, and reunite
>us with him. However, just like your one year old son, you would have
>to constantly do that since we constantly sin. Besides, if he did that
>for us, without us asking, then it is not free will, it would be his
>will cleansing us before we even ask. Once we understand that we have
>to recognize the state we are in, not the actual state like California,
>but the state of separateness from Christ due to our sin, we can
>recognize that there are two roads, either to choose Him and forgo our
>sinful ways, or to continue our sinful habits and push Him to the side.
>Those are the choices that each person has/has had since the beginning
>of time.
>
Sin is a state of mind instilled by christianity. It is the single
most important part of it's belief system. Convince others they are
bad and then offer a solution. Sort of the, "You didn't know you were
sick until I told you." ploy.
A close examination of the myth of original sin shows how
outrageous the whole scenario is. You have a omni-everything god that
sets up all the events. The paradox of the christian god defeats it's
entire premise. The god is omni-benolvent, but suffering still occurs,
omni-potent but there are still natural disasters, omni-loving but it
has a place of eternal punishment.
In order for christian myth to have substance, you must eliminate
specific traits from the deity. Unfortunately, these are the same
traits you rely on when proving other points in the bible. The god
design/definition is flawed. If it 'forgot' then murdering the world
with a flood would be a knee jerk reaction caused by surprise and
anger.
snip
>One final thought, being that you are an atheist, if there WAS objective
>evidence would you believe, or would you hang your hat on something else
>so you wouldn't have to believe in God? Here's to praying that you find
>what you are truly looking for.
It depends on the god. Some are better than others. The christian
one is definitely nasty and immoral. If the bible is any judge of it's
character, it belongs in a rubber room.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
William Barwell
SemperFiMac <sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Without the possibility of sin, i.e. the tree of knowledge of good and
>evil, then there would be no possibility of free will.
Utter bullshit of course. Are you telling us before they ate of that
tree they had no free will?
God is supposed to be omniscient. If he knows the future, there
is no free will.
And your own Bible tells there is no free will,
(Romans 8).
You're making this up as you go and not doing a very good job of it.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope of Houston
Slack!
Thomas P.
<sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Thomas,
>
>Good and evil are not necessary components, they are just components.
But you wrote:
>Without the possibility of sin, i.e. the tree of knowledge of good and
>evil, then there would be no possibility of free will.
Have you realized your error?
>There does not have to be a good that fights evil, or an evil fighting
>good.
I.e. you were wrong. Thank you for admitting it.
When pride came into Lucifer's heart and he wanted to be an equal
>to God, he began a "hostile takeover" of heaven. Since this
>did not work, due to the fact that he was thrown out of heaven
>and onto earth, making earth his "kingdom", we now have this
>evil or separation from God which began on earth with Adam and
>Eve eating of the fruit, this separation is something that we feel to
>this very day.
You feel it.
Our spirit has a want/need to be connected to something,
>and that something is God.
So you say.
However, most people connect with some
>things other than God and some of those connections, not all, end up
>hurting us in the long run. Now to show that they are both just
>components and not necessary components, evil was not part of the world
>before Lucifer's actions, and it will not be a part of the world when
>the 1,000 year reign ends and we live with Christ in eternity.
You once again admit that you were wrong. Once is enough.
>
>Now, since we have this separation from God, God COULD just zap us with
>his magic wand, or whatever you want to think that he has, and reunite
>us with him. However, just like your one year old son, you would have
>to constantly do that since we constantly sin.
Actually my son did not stay 1 for ever. He is quite capable of
handling a gun today. People do learn without grotesque punishments.
Furthermore, if I had left the gun out, I would have been the guilty
party not my son; i.e. god was the guilty party when Adam and Eve ate
the fruit, and he should ask Adam and Eve for forgiveness.
Besides, if he did that
>for us, without us asking, then it is not free will, it would be his
>will cleansing us before we even ask.
It would be his free will to forgive us. He chose, however, to be
unforgiving, even though it was all his fault to begin with.
>Once we understand that we have
>to recognize the state we are in, not the actual state like California,
>but the state of separateness from Christ due to our sin, we can
>recognize that there are two roads, either to choose Him and forgo our
>sinful ways, or to continue our sinful habits and push Him to the side.
>Those are the choices that each person has/has had since the beginning
>of time.
That is your opinion. Your entire post has been one long assertion -
besides admitting that you were wrong when you claimed that both good
and evil were necessary for free will to exist.
>
>
>Sam
>
>"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments, or
>they will become wise in their own estimation." Proverbs 26:5
>
>
>One final thought, being that you are an atheist, if there WAS objective
>evidence would you believe, or would you hang your hat on something else
>so you wouldn't have to believe in God? Here's to praying that you find
>what you are truly looking for.
>
If you are really interested in knowing the answer to your question,
post some objective evidence and see what happens. You really don't
have anything but assertions do you?
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
Thomas P.
Thomas P.
wrote:
>>
>> Of course god could have just forgiven them instantly, or he could
>> have made sure they never got close to the tree like any good parent
>> would have done. I used to have a gun in my house because of my work.
>> I made very sure that my 1 year old son never got close to that
>> weapon, because I knew the probable consequences if he did.
>> Apparently I am more caring than your sky daddy.
>>
>
>Actually, I'll bet you were afraid for your own life more than anything
>else.........
A gratuitous nasty remark - You must be Christian.
>Seriously, if you choose to be an atheist/agnostic, then it's your choice.
Do you choose not to believe in fairies?
>You will also have to bear the consequences of those choices. I know when I
>make mistakes, I have to live with the results as well.
Provide evidence that it is a mistake. Otherwise it is an empty
assertion.
>What do you have to look forward to? I'll bet you are just overjoyed at the
>fact that you will get to spend eternity in a pine box - oh goodie!
Where did you spend the eternity before you were born? What was it
like? Your threats and sarcasm are on the level of the school yard.
>As far as caring goes, God has cared for me and shown His love for me in
>every aspect of my life. Are you claiming ignorance for not being able to
>see it in your own life? Do you think that you actually have control of your
>own life? Every breath you take is a gift from God - I hope your eyes will
>be opened before you take your last one.........
>
>For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
>Romans 10:13
>
A series of insults, childish sarcsasms, empty threats and
unsubstantiated assertions finished off with a Bible quote - How
incredibly original and impressive.
Thomas P.
Earle Jones
lj...@aol.com (LJlis) wrote:
*
Here's the King James version:
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow be the way, which leadeth
unto life, and few there be that find it."
--Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
earle
*
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of
punishment and hope of reward after death."
--Albert Einstein
Al Klein
<sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>Actually, your word "evolve" used in conjuction with dogs is inaccurate
>or mis-stated, you can "train" dogs, but dogs do not evolve.
You can "train" a dog to have a thinner body or stronger jaw muscles?
And breed true?
Al Klein
<sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>Without the possibility of sin, i.e. the tree of knowledge of good and
>evil, then there would be no possibility of free will.
With an omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe, there would be
no possibility of free will.
Oh, and top-posting is lame.
crit
Al Klein <ruk...@pern.org> wrote in message
news:sjkk4tobvua4l819m...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:28:09 GMT, SemperFiMac
> <sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>
> >Without the possibility of sin, i.e. the tree of knowledge of good and
> >evil, then there would be no possibility of free will.
>
> With an omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe, there would be
> no possibility of free will.
>
> Oh, and top-posting is lame.
Helpu
all-powerful doesnt mean that he cant allow choice
and all knowing doesnt mean that because he knows what we will choose that
he controls tht choice
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.org> wrote in message
>news:sjkk4tobvua4l819m...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:28:09 GMT, SemperFiMac
>> <sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>> >Without the possibility of sin, i.e. the tree of knowledge of good and
>> >evil, then there would be no possibility of free will.
>> With an omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe, there would be
>> no possibility of free will.
>all-powerful doesnt mean that he cant allow choice
>and all knowing doesnt mean that because he knows what we will choose that
>he controls tht choice
Free will requires a non-determinate universe. Omniscience requires a
determinate universe. Since the universe can't be both, omniscience
and free will can't coexist in the same universe.
crit
Al Klein <ruk...@pern.org> wrote in message
> >all-powerful doesnt mean that he cant allow choice
> >and all knowing doesnt mean that because he knows what we will choose
that
> >he controls tht choice
>
> Free will requires a non-determinate universe. Omniscience requires a
> determinate universe. Since the universe can't be both, omniscience
> and free will can't coexist in the same universe.
Helpu
All knowing doesnt equal all controling. And God can will to limit His
control to allow choice
God determines to give us choice but limits that choice to a choice for Him
or against Him. THe remaining choices are controled by other
factors--desires, circumstance, talents, knowledge, etc
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.org> wrote in message
>> >all-powerful doesnt mean that he cant allow choice
>> >and all knowing doesnt mean that because he knows what we will choose that
>> >he controls tht choice
>> Free will requires a non-determinate universe. Omniscience requires a
>> determinate universe. Since the universe can't be both, omniscience
>> and free will can't coexist in the same universe.
>All knowing doesnt equal all controling. And God can will to limit His
>control to allow choice
>God determines to give us choice but limits that choice to a choice for Him
>or against Him. THe remaining choices are controled by other
>factors--desires, circumstance, talents, knowledge, etc
If you want to refute what I said, you'll have to address what I said,
not your red herring.
Erin Cowan
crit wrote:
> But you forgot something..
>
> God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
> righteous purpose.
Then why the hell does he care whether evil is committed. I say that if
Jesus died for our sins, then it would be a shame to trivialize his
martyrdom by refraining from vice. Further, I think that a little bit
of thanks is in order for Adam and Eve. If it were not for their
misdeed, then the human race would never have gotten the opportunity to
crucify that insufferable jerk name Jesus.
Chasman
Thomas P. <ton...@get2net.dk> wrote in message
news:3a49ae4a...@news.get2net.dk...
you've fabricated threats when none were intended.
I'm not trying to attack you - I'm just giving you a taste of your own
medicine, and I beleive I've struck a nerve. Paranoia will destroy
you.......
Happy holidays!
Thomas P.
wrote:
Calling me a hypocrite does not hide your hypocrisy. It is there for
all to see. You are so mealy-mouthed that you can not express your
hostility openly. You have to hide behind your big sky daddy and
claim you are only warning me what he will do if I am not nice.
>I'm not trying to attack you - I'm just giving you a taste of your own
>medicine, and I beleive I've struck a nerve. Paranoia will destroy
>you.......
Of course you attacked me. You posted a long list of unsubstantiated
assertions about me and about reality. They were all negative. The
remark about giving me a taste of my own medicine is just as
meaningless as the rest of your post. It must be wonderful to be able
to convince yourself that you have struck a nerve; your delusions of
adequacy must be comforting.
>
>Happy holidays!
>
>
Thomas P.
Thomas P.
>On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:15:25 GMT, SemperFiMac
><sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>
>>Actually, your word "evolve" used in conjuction with dogs is inaccurate
>>or mis-stated, you can "train" dogs, but dogs do not evolve.
>
>You can "train" a dog to have a thinner body or stronger jaw muscles?
>And breed true?
Well, it takes a lot of work, and you have to be very firm with him.
>--
>Al - Unnumbered Atheist #infinity
>aklein at villagenet dot com
Thomas P.
Damien Harrison
"Erin Cowan" <eco...@unm.edu> wrote in message
news:3A4AB814...@unm.edu...
>
>
> crit wrote:
>
> > But you forgot something..
> >
> > God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
> > righteous purpose.
>
> Then why the hell does he care whether evil is committed. I say that if
> Jesus died for our sins, then it would be a shame to trivialize his
> martyrdom by refraining from vice. Further, I think that a little bit
> of thanks is in order for Adam and Eve.
Would you say to your wife, "If you love me, you'll let me go off and sleep
with anyone I want"?
> If it were not for their
> misdeed, then the human race would never have gotten the opportunity to
> crucify that insufferable jerk name Jesus.
A number of nasty things ran through my mind to tell you Erin. I'll pick
the nastiest:
"God bless you!"
Harro.
SemperFiMac
Without that possibility, then there is no chance of free will. If
there was no free will, then we would have a world of zombies going
around doing what God wanted 100% of the time. However, that
POSSIBILITY of free will gives us the luxury of choosing the path we
want to take.
2. We feel the affects of the fall, not the actual act per se.
3. Do you feel connected to your wife/girlfriend? How about your son?
Each person needs to feel connected to someone or something. In the
same way, our spirit, after the fall/separation has a need to be
connected to something, and that something is God. If you don't fulfill
the needs of your spirit, i.e. connecting to God, then you will connect
with other things and it will take more and more "things" to fill it.
4. Why would you use the word grotesque unless you had a desire to
connect to God, but feel abandoned because of this separation between
you two? It's just a punishment, just like if your son shot that gun,
you would have to punish him. If you didn't then you wouldn't be
fulfilling your agreement as a father. If you warned your son and he
still did that act, then it is not your fault, but your son's. In the
same way, it is not God's fault because he warned us, but it is ours.
Sam
"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments,
or they will become wise in their own estimation." Proverbs 26:5
SemperFiMac
Al,
You are partly correct in stating that Free Will requires a
non-determinate universe and that omniscience requires a determinate
universe. However, God is omniscient, not us. Yes, He knows what we
will choose, but since we are not omnicient, then we can determine our
paths by the choices we make. You can choose to go to college or not
to, and still have God know the outcome before it even happens. That
fact does not change the outcome. If you sit on your butt and do
nothing, God will know that too, but you still made the choice to do
nothing.
Sam
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:33:46 GMT, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.org> wrote:
>>On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:15:25 GMT, SemperFiMac
>><sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>>>Actually, your word "evolve" used in conjuction with dogs is inaccurate
>>>or mis-stated, you can "train" dogs, but dogs do not evolve.
>>You can "train" a dog to have a thinner body or stronger jaw muscles?
>>And breed true?
>Well, it takes a lot of work, and you have to be very firm with him.
"Okay, boy, sit. Now thin. THIN, darn you!"
Thomas P.
<sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>1. There never had to be good vs. evil, but only the possibility of it.
>Without that possibility, then there is no chance of free will.
If free will exists (something you have not demonstrated) it could
still exist if evil were impossible. For free will to exist it is
only necessary for there to be at least two things to choose between,
both of which could be good or morally neutral.
If
>there was no free will, then we would have a world of zombies going
>around doing what God wanted 100% of the time. However, that
>POSSIBILITY of free will gives us the luxury of choosing the path we
>want to take.
See above. Also that would mean that we become zombies in heaven.
>
>2. We feel the affects of the fall, not the actual act per se.
So you say. I do not believe in your myth.
>
>
>3. Do you feel connected to your wife/girlfriend? How about your son?
> Each person needs to feel connected to someone or something. In the
>same way, our spirit, after the fall/separation has a need to be
>connected to something, and that something is God. If you don't fulfill
>the needs of your spirit, i.e. connecting to God, then you will connect
>with other things and it will take more and more "things" to fill it.
So you say. It is your undemonstrated assertion.
>
>4. Why would you use the word grotesque unless you had a desire to
>connect to God, but feel abandoned because of this separation between
>you two? It's just a punishment, just like if your son shot that gun,
>you would have to punish him.
How does one become a better person by being burned for all eternity?
If you didn't then you wouldn't be
>fulfilling your agreement as a father. If you warned your son and he
>still did that act, then it is not your fault, but your son's. In the
>same way, it is not God's fault because he warned us, but it is ours.
If punishment was necessary (a point I do not grant), I would not
throw my son into fire for all eternity. The punishment would be
pointless, because he would not be able to use the lesson for
anything. Causing horrible, long-lasting pain in someone for no good
reason is grotesque.
If I delibrately left the gun where my son could get it, it would
indeed be my fault if he shot himself or someone else with it. Both
the police and the courts would blame me and rightly so. If god
existed, and the story happened as described, god would be guilty;
that is quite clear. Perhaps you would murder your son as a
punishment, but most people would consider that to be insane; it would
however be far from as insane as eternal punishment is. Your god is
cruel and insane; fortunately there is no reason to believe he exists.
PS: It would be better if you did not cut the post you are responding
to. It makes things easier to follow.
>
>Sam
>
>"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments,
>or they will become wise in their own estimation." Proverbs 26:5
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
Thomas P.
arky
<sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>You are partly correct in stating that Free Will requires a
>non-determinate universe and that omniscience requires a determinate
>universe. However, God is omniscient, not us. Yes, He knows what we
>will choose, but since we are not omnicient, then we can determine our
>paths by the choices we make. You can choose to go to college or not
>to, and still have God know the outcome before it even happens. That
>fact does not change the outcome. If you sit on your butt and do
>nothing, God will know that too, but you still made the choice to do
>nothing.
If God knows what you are going to choose, it means it is
predetermined. Your choice is mechanically made - it is predictable,
even it seems to be freely made.
Al Klein
<sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>You are partly correct in stating that Free Will requires a
>non-determinate universe and that omniscience requires a determinate
>universe. However, God is omniscient
Meaning that the universe is determinate.
> not us. Yes, He knows what we
>will choose, but since we are not omnicient, then we can determine our
>paths by the choices we make.
Meaning that the universe is non-determinate.
> You can choose to go to college or not
>to, and still have God know the outcome before it even happens. That
>fact does not change the outcome. If you sit on your butt and do
>nothing, God will know that too, but you still made the choice to do
>nothing.
You still haven't addressed how the universe can be both determinate
and non-determinate. You've just brushed the problem aside and
assumed your conclusion.
SemperFiMac
ton...@get2net.dk (Thomas P.) wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 17:48:01 GMT, SemperFiMac
> <sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >1. There never had to be good vs. evil, but only the possibility of
it.
> >Without that possibility, then there is no chance of free will.
>
> If free will exists (something you have not demonstrated) it could
> still exist if evil were impossible. For free will to exist it is
> only necessary for there to be at least two things to choose between,
> both of which could be good or morally neutral.
Free will does exist. All free will is is a choice between two things.
You can choose to eat a Big Mac or a Quarter-Pounder with Cheese, you
have that choice. You also can choose whether or not to believe, that
again is your choice. If you could only eat Big Macs because that was
all that was available, guess what you have a choice still to eat it or
to starve. However if you had nothing to eat then you would have no
more choices. Free will is used everyday, that is my proof.
> If
> >there was no free will, then we would have a world of zombies going
> >around doing what God wanted 100% of the time. However, that
> >POSSIBILITY of free will gives us the luxury of choosing the path we
> >want to take.
>
> See above. Also that would mean that we become zombies in heaven.
The difference in what you say is that everyone in heaven will have made
their choice. They will have chosen to be with Jesus and therefore are
not zombies because they will be doing the one thing that they are
longing to do now, be in the presence of God. Likewise, people who do
not choose God will have made their choice and will be separated from
God for eternity.
> >3. Do you feel connected to your wife/girlfriend? How about your
son?
> > Each person needs to feel connected to someone or something. In the
> >same way, our spirit, after the fall/separation has a need to be
> >connected to something, and that something is God. If you don't
fulfill
> >the needs of your spirit, i.e. connecting to God, then you will
connect
> >with other things and it will take more and more "things" to fill it.
>
> So you say. It is your undemonstrated assertion.
So you don't feel any connection to your son or wife? Each person has
to connect to something, it is a basic human need. Whether it's a
person, or an inatimate object each person has to/or will connect at
some point in their life.
> >4. Why would you use the word grotesque unless you had a desire to
> >connect to God, but feel abandoned because of this separation between
> >you two? It's just a punishment, just like if your son shot that
gun,
> >you would have to punish him.
>
> How does one become a better person by being burned for all eternity?
If you were God, and you made everything on earth, including each one of
us, and all you were looking from each person you created is that each
of us would make a free will decision to want to be reunited with You
for eternity, wouldn't you be upset if we didn't want to? Just like
being rejected by your son would hurt, that is the same way God
would feel. Now you can see why He would make Hell an alternative for
people who do not choose to be with Him.
> If you didn't then you wouldn't be
> >fulfilling your agreement as a father. If you warned your son and he
> >still did that act, then it is not your fault, but your son's. In
the
> >same way, it is not God's fault because he warned us, but it is ours.
>
> If punishment was necessary (a point I do not grant), I would not
> throw my son into fire for all eternity. The punishment would be
> pointless, because he would not be able to use the lesson for
> anything. Causing horrible, long-lasting pain in someone for no good
> reason is grotesque.
At that point in your life, the time for lesson learning would be over.
There would be no turning back from your decision to reject Him, and
your punishment would fit the crime of rejecting Him.
> If I delibrately left the gun where my son could get it, it would
> indeed be my fault if he shot himself or someone else with it. Both
> the police and the courts would blame me and rightly so. If god
> existed, and the story happened as described, god would be guilty;
> that is quite clear. Perhaps you would murder your son as a
> punishment, but most people would consider that to be insane; it would
> however be far from as insane as eternal punishment is. Your god is
> cruel and insane; fortunately there is no reason to believe he exists.
Okay, I will give you the fact that if your son is below the age of 18
and you left your gun out and he shot himself or someone else, then you
would be responsible. However, if you warned your 20 y.o. son about the
gun and he picked it up anyway and shot someone, then it would not be
your fault, but his. In the same way, God has warned each one of us,
each of us who are responsible for our actions and those actions in
turn, lead to punishment, albeit eternal and not temporary as ours are
here. Therefore it is not God's fault, but ours because of the actions
we took.
Finally, why wouldn't you think punishment is necessary? Do you not
punish your son for doing wrong? I agree that each person should be
given a certain amount of grace, but if too much grace is given, then
you will be taken advantage of. If you are taken advantage of, would
you then punish your son?
arky
<sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>If you were God, and you made everything on earth, including each one of
>us, and all you were looking from each person you created is that each
>of us would make a free will decision to want to be reunited with You
>for eternity, wouldn't you be upset if we didn't want to? Just like
>being rejected by your son would hurt, that is the same way God
>would feel. Now you can see why He would make Hell an alternative for
>people who do not choose to be with Him.
No (sane) human being would wish ETERNAL punishment on anyone, yet you
claim a LOVING God does. That contradiction proves that christianity
cannot be true.
yowie
> In article <11bl4tcsmsd0162d8...@4ax.com>,
> Al,
> You are partly correct in stating that Free Will requires a
> non-determinate universe and that omniscience requires a determinate
> universe. However, God is omniscient, not us. Yes, He knows what we
> will choose, but since we are not omnicient, then we can determine our
> paths by the choices we make. You can choose to go to college or not
> to, and still have God know the outcome before it even happens. That
> fact does not change the outcome. If you sit on your butt and do
> nothing, God will know that too, but you still made the choice to do
> nothing.
In your scheme, free will is an illusion resulting from our lack of
omniscience. At least you admit it.
--
"...brainlessness is no hindrance to
finding love and grace in Jesus Christ."
-Pastor Frank
SemperFiMac
Free will is an effect of our lack of omiscience. Do you walk around
like a zombie? Well, maybe in the morning we all do, but on a daily
basis we work and play with free will reigning over us, not as an
illusion but as reality.
SemperFiMac
God is not only loving, but also JEALOUS. If you worship something else
besides him on earth, he will provide punishment according to His will
and purpose.
Sam
Chasman
> Calling me a hypocrite does not hide your hypocrisy. It is there for
> all to see. You are so mealy-mouthed that you can not express your
> hostility openly. You have to hide behind your big sky daddy and
> claim you are only warning me what he will do if I am not nice.
> Of course you attacked me. You posted a long list of unsubstantiated
> assertions about me and about reality. They were all negative. The
> remark about giving me a taste of my own medicine is just as
> meaningless as the rest of your post. It must be wonderful to be able
> to convince yourself that you have struck a nerve; your delusions of
> adequacy must be comforting.
>
And my hypocrisy according to Thomas P. is........?????
Mealy-mouthed? I wrote to you so simply and plainly that a child could
understand it - well, all but one anyway.......
God is my provider and protector, yes. Who is yours?
Nice is not the point, and God is not a watchdog to sick on people. He loves
both you and I regardless of the fact
that we are sinners - so much that he provided a way for us to be saved.
However, if we choose to deny that salvation and live a life apart from him,
do
you think we'll have an excuse good enough to convince him to let us into
heaven? Think about it - what if you're wrong about all of this? How do you
think
you'll react when you stand before God someday? Do you honestly think you'll
be shaking your fist at Him, telling Him that He's wrong?
I would encourage you to look around and see the evidence of God. If you
seek him, you will find him. Man has made it increasingly evident that we
can't manage or take care of ourselves - look how much more evil creeps into
the world, year after year - and it's only going to get worse.
Attack you? Oh boy, Thomas. Now I'm really starting to wonder about you.
Reality - it's great, Thomas! You should try it sometime!
Was I being negative? I'm sorry - I hope I didn't make you cry! I'll have to
say this though - it's incredibly easy to get you on the defense. You should
learn to relax!
This isn't war, you know.
Delusions of adequacy - that's a good one. I've never heard that one before;
who told it to you?
Tom old boy, I'm going to make this my final post under this heading. There
are other headings out there that I'd like to peruse a little more than this
one. I'm sure we'll bump into one another out in cyberspace somewhere - I
really hope you think about life and it's origins a little more. Also, try
reading the Bible! If you think it's so riddled with errors, try to find
one! Email me when you do!
Take care!
STD DIALUP
: Would you say to your wife, "If you love me, you'll let me go off and sleep
: with anyone I want"?
As long as she shares the pillow.
Al Klein
>Free will does exist. All free will is is a choice between two things.
> You can choose to eat a Big Mac or a Quarter-Pounder with Cheese, you
>have that choice. You also can choose whether or not to believe, that
>again is your choice. If you could only eat Big Macs because that was
>all that was available, guess what you have a choice still to eat it or
>to starve. However if you had nothing to eat then you would have no
>more choices. Free will is used everyday, that is my proof.
How do you know it's not just an illusion?
>> So you say. It is your undemonstrated assertion.
>So you don't feel any connection to your son or wife? Each person has
>to connect to something, it is a basic human need.
There's a difference between needing something and having it.
> Whether it's a
>person, or an inatimate object each person has to/or will connect at
>some point in their life.
There's also a difference between wants to, has to and will.
>> How does one become a better person by being burned for all eternity?
>If you were God, and you made everything on earth, including each one of
>us, and all you were looking from each person you created is that each
>of us would make a free will decision to want to be reunited with You
>for eternity, wouldn't you be upset if we didn't want to? Just like
>being rejected by your son would hurt, that is the same way God
>would feel. Now you can see why He would make Hell an alternative for
>people who do not choose to be with Him.
How does god's salving his hurt feelings make us better people?
>> If punishment was necessary (a point I do not grant), I would not
>> throw my son into fire for all eternity. The punishment would be
>> pointless, because he would not be able to use the lesson for
>> anything. Causing horrible, long-lasting pain in someone for no good
>> reason is grotesque.
>At that point in your life, the time for lesson learning would be over.
>There would be no turning back from your decision to reject Him
Why?
>and your punishment would fit the crime of rejecting Him.
An infinite punishment fits a finite crime?
>Okay, I will give you the fact that if your son is below the age of 18
>and you left your gun out and he shot himself or someone else, then you
>would be responsible. However, if you warned your 20 y.o. son about the
>gun and he picked it up anyway and shot someone, then it would not be
>your fault, but his.
But if you created your son so that he was incapable of believing what
you said, it WOULD be your fault.
> In the same way, God has warned each one of us,
>each of us who are responsible for our actions and those actions in
>turn, lead to punishment, albeit eternal and not temporary as ours are
>here. Therefore it is not God's fault, but ours because of the actions
>we took.
Except those whom he made incapable of accepting his existence without
objective evidence.
>Finally, why wouldn't you think punishment is necessary? Do you not
>punish your son for doing wrong?
Being unable to do something isn't "wrong".
> I agree that each person should be
>given a certain amount of grace, but if too much grace is given, then
>you will be taken advantage of. If you are taken advantage of, would
>you then punish your son?
How is it possible for a mortal to take advantage of an infinite god?
Al Klein
<sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>God is not only loving, but also JEALOUS. If you worship something else
>besides him on earth
That's not what your bible says - it says that he's jealous of the
other GODS.
STD DIALUP
: > But you forgot something..
: >
: > God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
: > righteous purpose.
Than there is no need for a jesus savior. Why complicate things any
more.
Al Klein
<sempe...@my-deja.com> posted in alt.atheism:
>Free will is an effect of our lack of omiscience.
It has nothing to do with us or god, but with the nature of the
universe.
Is the universe determinate or non-determinate?
> Do you walk around like a zombie?
Ever read a book? Did the characters all appear to be zombies?
> Well, maybe in the morning we all do, but on a daily
>basis we work and play with free will reigning over us, not as an
>illusion but as reality.
What objective evidence do you have that it's not an illusion?
Paul Murray
>
> > But you forgot something..
> >
> > God is able to turn evil into good and use it to advance His overall
> > righteous purpose.
>
> Then why the hell does he care whether evil is committed. I say that if
> Jesus died for our sins, then it would be a shame to trivialize his
> martyrdom by refraining from vice.
Paul has a specific and perfectly straightforward reply to this:
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may
abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were
baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as
Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we
also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we
shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin
might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Which I just don't understand at all. He seems to be saying that your
old-man is dead, so you don't have to sin, or it's not possible, or
something. But how is this supposed to answer the question - why not sin so
that God gets to demonstrate more grace? He seems to be replying "You dont
get it - in actual fact you dont *want* to sin anymore", which is
demonstrable bull.
I gave up trying to untangle this sort of rubbish a year an a half ago.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Repent! Quit your job! Slack off!
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pmurray
ICQ: 26066755
Paul Murray
news:3a4cc3bd...@news.freeserve.net...
> No (sane) human being would wish ETERNAL punishment on anyone, yet you
> claim a LOVING God does. That contradiction proves that christianity
> cannot be true.
Rubbish - there is no contradiction. The christain God is loving, but
insane.
Actually, christain "love" is not the same thing as what we normally
understand the word to mean.
Paul Murray
news:92fucf$kev$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> 1. There never had to be good vs. evil, but only the possibility of it.
> Without that possibility, then there is no chance of free will. If
> there was no free will, then we would have a world of zombies going
> around doing what God wanted 100% of the time.
Like in heaven. Beats me why you want to go there. The place is like nothing
so much as an eternal church service. No wonder God has to threaten people
with hell if they don't how up.
> 3. Do you feel connected to your wife/girlfriend? How about your son?
> Each person needs to feel connected to someone or something. In the
> same way, our spirit, after the fall/separation has a need to be
> connected to something, and that something is God.
The "need to be connected" is an emotional thing, the result of
neurotransmitters, brain stucture and hormones. Do we have "spiritual"
hormones etc? The analogy stikes me as being very weak.
Paul Murray
news:92frkt$19un$1...@otis.netspace.net.au...
> Would you say to your wife, "If you love me, you'll let me go off and
sleep
> with anyone I want"?
If she forced you to marry her with threats of extended torture if you
don't, sure!
"I luuuuuve you! I want to be with you! Marry me!"
"I don't want to marry you."
"Marry me, or I will have you burnt alive! I'm only doing it because I love
you so much!"
"Uh ... ok, but if you really love me so much you'll let me go off and sleep
with whoever I want, right?"
When you are dealing with a psycho nutbar like Jehovah, the usual rules
don't apply.
Paul Murray
> Free will requires a non-determinate universe.
Does it? What *is* free will, anyway?
For instance, could you tell from observation alone whether or not some
entity has free will? Or do you have to go on the entitiy's report "yes, I
act as I do because I freely choose it"?
Paul Murray
news:xZ926.533$e6.3...@news.uswest.net...
> Seriously, if you choose to be an atheist/agnostic, then it's your choice.
How can a peson choose what they believe? I belive what I do because certain
words in conjunction with my experiences have made certain impressions on
me, and as a result I think that some staments are true and that others are
false.
Belief is thinking that something is true. I can't just decide to "belive"
something that I don't think is true. I don't think there are any gods. I
think that 'God is' is false. As a result of a lifetime of stuff. How is
that supposed to be a "choice"?
Paul Murray
> You are partly correct in stating that Free Will requires a
> non-determinate universe and that omniscience requires a determinate
> universe. However, God is omniscient, not us.
So ... you are saying that God does not have free will?
Paul Murray
news:MPG.14b65c896...@news.picknowl.com.au...
> In your scheme, free will is an illusion resulting from our lack of
> omniscience. At least you admit it.
A useful fiction. Maxwell's equations are also fictions in much the same
sense.
In actuality, there is no such thing as a elecric field. Really, there are
charged particles exchanging virtual photons. Their behaviour is described
by quantum electrodynamics. But the end result of all this looks exactly
like an electric field. If you can treat 'electric field' as being a name
for 'the net result of the quantum interactions of charged particles'. If
you do, then electric fields are real - in the sense described.
I'm a materialist. I thik that all that we are is a result of the
electrochemical interactions of the matter that makes up our bodies and the
environment they are in. However, these interactions are so complex that you
need some simplifying terms - "subconscious", "ego", "personality" and "free
will".
I say we do have free will, insofar as it is meaningful to use the term.
Thomas P.
That's it. Next you can train him to change from poodle to St.
Bernard.
>--
>Al - Unnumbered Atheist #infinity
>aklein at villagenet dot com
Thomas P.
Thomas P.
>
>> Calling me a hypocrite does not hide your hypocrisy. It is there for
>> all to see. You are so mealy-mouthed that you can not express your
>> hostility openly. You have to hide behind your big sky daddy and
>> claim you are only warning me what he will do if I am not nice.
>
>> Of course you attacked me. You posted a long list of unsubstantiated
>> assertions about me and about reality. They were all negative. The
>> remark about giving me a taste of my own medicine is just as
>> meaningless as the rest of your post. It must be wonderful to be able
>> to convince yourself that you have struck a nerve; your delusions of
>> adequacy must be comforting.
>>
>
>And my hypocrisy according to Thomas P. is........?????
Pretending not to attack me by using your imaginary god to issue the
threats.
>Mealy-mouthed? I wrote to you so simply and plainly that a child could
>understand it - well, all but one anyway.......
See above.
>
>God is my provider and protector, yes. Who is yours?
I am an adult.
>
>Nice is not the point, and God is not a watchdog to sick on people. He loves
>both you and I regardless of the fact
>that we are sinners - so much that he provided a way for us to be saved.
>However, if we choose to deny that salvation and live a life apart from him,
>do
>you think we'll have an excuse good enough to convince him to let us into
>heaven? Think about it - what if you're wrong about all of this? How do you
>think
Yet another threat. I have no reason to believe in your god. It
makes no difference if I might be wrong. I have no reason to believe
in your god. I can not choose to believe in something.
>you'll react when you stand before God someday? Do you honestly think you'll
>be shaking your fist at Him, telling Him that He's wrong?
Another threat. What will you say to Thor when you die?
>I would encourage you to look around and see the evidence of God. If you
>seek him, you will find him. Man has made it increasingly evident that we
>can't manage or take care of ourselves - look how much more evil creeps into
>the world, year after year - and it's only going to get worse.
The world is not worse than it was. It is, in fact, better. Even if
iwas getting worse, that would not make god real. If you have
evidence of god, show it.
>
>Attack you? Oh boy, Thomas. Now I'm really starting to wonder about you.
>
>Reality - it's great, Thomas! You should try it sometime!
You believe in a god for which you have no objective evidence, and you
make sarcastic remarks about me trying reality.
>
>Was I being negative? I'm sorry - I hope I didn't make you cry! I'll have to
>say this though - it's incredibly easy to get you on the defense. You should
>learn to relax!
>This isn't war, you know.
I am not on the defensive. You are making an ass of yourself, and I
am pointing it out.
>
>Delusions of adequacy - that's a good one. I've never heard that one before;
>who told it to you?
I am not a Christian, so I am allowed to think for myself.
>
>Tom old boy, I'm going to make this my final post under this heading. There
>are other headings out there that I'd like to peruse a little more than this
>one. I'm sure we'll bump into one another out in cyberspace somewhere - I
>really hope you think about life and it's origins a little more. Also, try
>reading the Bible! If you think it's so riddled with errors, try to find
>one! Email me when you do!
I am sorry I don't send E-mails that long. If you want to see the
errors, follow your own advice; read the Bible.
>
>Take care!
>
>
>
>
Thomas P.
Thomas P.
>In article <3a4b9fac...@news.get2net.dk>,
> ton...@get2net.dk (Thomas P.) wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 17:48:01 GMT, SemperFiMac
>> <sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> >1. There never had to be good vs. evil, but only the possibility of
>it.
>> >Without that possibility, then there is no chance of free will.
>>
>> If free will exists (something you have not demonstrated) it could
>> still exist if evil were impossible. For free will to exist it is
>> only necessary for there to be at least two things to choose between,
>> both of which could be good or morally neutral.
>
>Free will does exist. All free will is is a choice between two things.
> You can choose to eat a Big Mac or a Quarter-Pounder with Cheese, you
>have that choice. You also can choose whether or not to believe, that
>again is your choice. If you could only eat Big Macs because that was
>all that was available, guess what you have a choice still to eat it or
>to starve. However if you had nothing to eat then you would have no
>more choices. Free will is used everyday, that is my proof.
I am glad to see that you agree that the possibility of an evil choice
is not necessary for free will to exist.
>
>> If
>> >there was no free will, then we would have a world of zombies going
>> >around doing what God wanted 100% of the time. However, that
>> >POSSIBILITY of free will gives us the luxury of choosing the path we
>> >want to take.
>>
> See above. Also that would mean that we become zombies in heaven.
>
>The difference in what you say is that everyone in heaven will have made
>their choice. They will have chosen to be with Jesus and therefore are
>not zombies because they will be doing the one thing that they are
>longing to do now, be in the presence of God. Likewise, people who do
>not choose God will have made their choice and will be separated from
>God for eternity.
And of course they will not be able to change their mind. They will
no longer have free will.
>
>> >3. Do you feel connected to your wife/girlfriend? How about your
>son?
>> > Each person needs to feel connected to someone or something. In the
>> >same way, our spirit, after the fall/separation has a need to be
>> >connected to something, and that something is God. If you don't
>fulfill
>> >the needs of your spirit, i.e. connecting to God, then you will
>connect
>> >with other things and it will take more and more "things" to fill it.
>>
>> So you say. It is your undemonstrated assertion.
>
>So you don't feel any connection to your son or wife? Each person has
>to connect to something, it is a basic human need. Whether it's a
>person, or an inatimate object each person has to/or will connect at
>some point in their life.
Do you really believe that is what I said? I don't think so. Try
being a little honest.
>
>
>> >4. Why would you use the word grotesque unless you had a desire to
>> >connect to God, but feel abandoned because of this separation between
>> >you two? It's just a punishment, just like if your son shot that
>gun,
>> >you would have to punish him.
>>
>> How does one become a better person by being burned for all eternity?
>
>If you were God, and you made everything on earth, including each one of
>us, and all you were looking from each person you created is that each
>of us would make a free will decision to want to be reunited with You
>for eternity, wouldn't you be upset if we didn't want to? Just like
>being rejected by your son would hurt, that is the same way God
>would feel. Now you can see why He would make Hell an alternative for
>people who do not choose to be with Him.
No, I do not. No matter what my son did I would not put him into a
fire for all eternity. I also would not have such a thing as hell
around to put people into or ( as some Christians say) for people to
choose to go to. Would you put your son into such a place?
>
>
>> If you didn't then you wouldn't be
>> >fulfilling your agreement as a father. If you warned your son and he
>> >still did that act, then it is not your fault, but your son's. In
>the
>> >same way, it is not God's fault because he warned us, but it is ours.
>>
>> If punishment was necessary (a point I do not grant), I would not
>> throw my son into fire for all eternity. The punishment would be
>> pointless, because he would not be able to use the lesson for
>> anything. Causing horrible, long-lasting pain in someone for no good
>> reason is grotesque.
>
>At that point in your life, the time for lesson learning would be over.
>There would be no turning back from your decision to reject Him, and
>your punishment would fit the crime of rejecting Him.
>
Nonsense. That would make your god petty, spiteful and incredibly
cruel. No person on earth deserves such a punishment. Furthermore
what is he being punished for? God says love me or I will make you
sorry. That is quite sick. When people do that, they are described
as, at the very least, childish and very possibly unbalanced.
>
>> If I delibrately left the gun where my son could get it, it would
>> indeed be my fault if he shot himself or someone else with it. Both
>> the police and the courts would blame me and rightly so. If god
>> existed, and the story happened as described, god would be guilty;
>> that is quite clear. Perhaps you would murder your son as a
>> punishment, but most people would consider that to be insane; it would
>> however be far from as insane as eternal punishment is. Your god is
>> cruel and insane; fortunately there is no reason to believe he exists.
>
>Okay, I will give you the fact that if your son is below the age of 18
>and you left your gun out and he shot himself or someone else, then you
>would be responsible. However, if you warned your 20 y.o. son about the
>gun and he picked it up anyway and shot someone, then it would not be
>your fault, but his.
Sorry, you are wrong. If I knew my son's character and knew, beyond a
doubt, that he would hurt himself or others and still left the gun
out, it would be my fault no matter how old he was.
In the same way, God has warned each one of us,
>each of us who are responsible for our actions and those actions in
>turn, lead to punishment, albeit eternal and not temporary as ours are
>here. Therefore it is not God's fault, but ours because of the actions
>we took.
Supposedly god knows us better than I know my son in the above
example, and he made us that way. He is much more responsible than I
could ever be. As a matter of fact he is responsible for everything
that ever happened or will ever happen.
>
>Finally, why wouldn't you think punishment is necessary? Do you not
>punish your son for doing wrong? I agree that each person should be
>given a certain amount of grace, but if too much grace is given, then
>you will be taken advantage of. If you are taken advantage of, would
>you then punish your son?
I am afraid we disagree about human nature and about child raising. I
have actually raised children; have you?
>
>
>> >Sam
>> >
>> >"When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments,
>> >or they will become wise in their own estimation." Proverbs 26:5
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
Thomas P.
Steve Knight
<pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote:
>"SemperFiMac" <sempe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:92fucf$kev$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>> 1. There never had to be good vs. evil, but only the possibility of it.
>> Without that possibility, then there is no chance of free will. If
>> there was no free will, then we would have a world of zombies going
>> around doing what God wanted 100% of the time.
>
>Like in heaven. Beats me why you want to go there. The place is like nothing
>so much as an eternal church service. No wonder God has to threaten people
>with hell if they don't how up.
snip
I never quite understood why christians are attracted to heaven.
They haven't a clue of what it is or what it will be like. But they
want to go there. I guess it's a fear of hell.
I had a talk with a couple of Mormon boys a few weeks ago. I asked
them what the big deal with heaven is all about. "You get to be with
God". Yeah...so... What do you do every day? They seemed puzzled, as
if being with their god was enough. So you are consciously standing in
front of your god while billions of centuries pass by and you'll be
standing there while an eternity of centuries pass by.
We use to have great gods. Gods with personality, a sense of fun
and humor. Now the gods are murderous and dour. They suppress and
condemn us mentally and physically. What happened?
Warlord Steve
BAAWA