Skybuck's Method to finding planet Nine.

18 views
Skip to first unread message

Skybuck Flying

unread,
Apr 15, 2022, 6:52:29 AMApr 15
to
Here is my method how to find planet Nine :)

The idea is based on gravitational waves/wells as explained by Einstein.

Basically the planets are a bole of soup attracting particles into them.

So the idea is to "sprinkle" dust/milky parts into the solar system perhaps with some space craft or multiple.

Then observe how the dust/milky parts start to become sucked into the planets.

Some of them will be sucked into jupiter, earth, the sun, neptune etc.

But some of these light weight particle might start to be sucked towards planet nine as they are captured by it's gravitional well.

Thus hinting/shining a light/path towards this mysterious object/planet.

Perhaps some small micro-chips with solar panels on them could be used to communicatie with each other, like a bunch of micro-dust-chips... so they can hopefully transmit information back to earth to their where abouts or distance to each other to get some idea where these particles are moving towards.

Alternatively some kind of high-powered laser could also be used to shine light across these dust particles, perhaps they can be reflective enough to send back some faint laser light which could then be picked up.

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

Whisper

unread,
Apr 15, 2022, 6:55:55 AMApr 15
to
Dumbest thing I've ever read.

Skybuck Flying

unread,
Jul 7, 2022, 1:09:47 AMJul 7
to
Hehe It's science !

Perhaps add some lasers to the mix to illuminate the dust particles ! and show the lasers and such ! Yeah !

Bye,
Skybuck.

R Kym Horsell

unread,
Jul 7, 2022, 5:32:31 AMJul 7
to
Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> Hehe It's science !
> Perhaps add some lasers to the mix to illuminate the dust particles ! and show the lasers and such ! Yeah !
> Bye,
> Skybuck.

Let's say its an hypothesis. The science part is finding evidence that
supports it.

I've just started using the JPL "horizons" system that tracks lots of
small bodies around the solar system. Their full dataset tracks
everything bigger than a peach stone from 30ky bce to +30ky ad.
It's the system NASA uses to plan space probes. They say the planetary
positions are accurate to 1m within the +-30ky range.
I can't vouch for that, but it's pretty good.

Where this could come in handy for you -- if you really want to get past
the "idea" phase -- is look at a lot of small bodies and see if they
move strange on one side of the solar system.

If #9 is far out then for 100s of years all the small bodies getting
close to the suspect longitude will tend to speed up and move slightly
inward toward the sun.

You just have to write a program to do the analysis. :)

To start you off try to connect to Horizons vis its old fashioned
telnet command:

telnet horizons.jpl.nasa.gov 6775

Dont jerk it around and dont tell them who told you. ;)

Skybuck Flying

unread,
Jul 23, 2022, 6:53:23 PMJul 23
to
Interesting idea.

It does have a new api too which might be easier to use for automatization purposes. Not sure if it offers access to everything that telnet has:

https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/doc/horizons_lookup.html

Recording from telnet session, putty can be used to but must be set to telnet protocol instead of ssh:

# telnet horizons.jpl.nasa.gov 6775
Connection to horizons.jpl.nasa.gov:6775 - ok
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unable to negotiate connection within 2 seconds. Defaults:



TERM= vt102, ROWS= 9999, COLUMNS= 9999, ECHO on, FULL-DUPLEX



Your terminal, command-line, telnet, or connection program

may not be compliant with RFC 854 and RFC 1073 standards:



http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc854.txt

http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1073.txt



Using a different program to connect may solve the problem.

-OR -

The network may be slow and need > 2 seconds (try again).

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



======================================================================

| Jet Propulsion Laboratory |

| |

| * * * W A R N I N G * * * |

| |

| Property of the |

| UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT |

| |

| This computer is funded by the United States Government and |

| operated by the California Institute of Technology in support of |

| ongoing U.S. Government programs and activities. If you are not |

| authorized to access this system, disconnect now. Users of this |

| system have no expectation of privacy. By continuing, you consent |

| to your keystrokes and data content being monitored. |

======================================================================



[H [J

___ _____ ___

/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Horizons On-line Ephemeris System v4.92

| | | | __ \ /| | | | Solar System Dynamics Group

___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ Jet Propulsion Laboratory

/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA, USA

|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/



Establishing connection, stand-by ...

[H [J

JPL Horizons, version 4.92

Type '?' for brief help, '?!' for details,

'-' for previous prompt, 'x' to exit

System news updated June 6, 2022



Horizons>

Bye for now,
Skybuck.


R Kym Horsell

unread,
Jul 23, 2022, 9:58:18 PMJul 23
to
Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> # telnet horizons.jpl.nasa.gov 6775
> Connection to horizons.jpl.nasa.gov:6775 - ok
> ????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Unable to negotiate connection within 2 seconds. Defaults:
> TERM= vt102, ROWS= 9999, COLUMNS= 9999, ECHO on, FULL-DUPLEX
...

You must be using a new-fangled computer. :)

Capturing the output can be a problem for small things like getting
orbital elements, but most queries at the end ask you if you want
to ftp/wget the data back to yourself via an https: url that will live
for 5-10 mins.

By now I've uploaded quite a few things for the major planets and asteroids
and there is enough real observational data -- as opposed to simulated
models -- to give some interesting results for what I want.

The dataset covers asteroids and comets that go out at least 10,000 au
so there's a lot of territory to look at.

The full dataset can be downloaded -- 100s of GB but available if you
have the stomach for it -- and at last count had 1.2 million objects.

There are ways to isolate subsets (e.g. all aseroids with A between
10 and 100 au) for download as well as get lists of close approaches
for a specific orbit in case you want to go out there and haul sommin back.

I already clagged the system up for a min by typing the wrong query
and generating a 60 MB answer the system had trouble storing for the
ftp/wget readback. :}

In the data I ran through you definitely do find little speed-ups and
jags (looking at the params "r" and "rdot") where some asteroids and comets
seem to feel gravity fields of other objects. But the trick for your problem
is to gather all that stuff and see if it occurs in one direction where no
known significant body is supposed to be.

R Kym Horsell

unread,
Jul 23, 2022, 11:29:31 PMJul 23
to
R Kym Horsell <k...@kymhorsell.com> wrote:
> Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>> # telnet horizons.jpl.nasa.gov 6775
>> Connection to horizons.jpl.nasa.gov:6775 - ok
>> ????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> Unable to negotiate connection within 2 seconds. Defaults:
>> TERM= vt102, ROWS= 9999, COLUMNS= 9999, ECHO on, FULL-DUPLEX
...


Just as an example using very simple methods.

I've uploaded the data for (randomly) Aurora.
We can build a table of the RDOT, ECLLON, and ECLLAT for the asteroid over
the past 30y.

We are looking for jags in RDOT that may indicate the asteroid
was anomylously sped up (or slowed down) by the gravity field of another
object appropriately nearby. Of course we are most likely to find that body
is Jupiter or another major obj. But we are not going to just rely on 1
asteroid. We will treat asteroids and comets like dust!

We process the RDOT numbers to look for jags. A simple way to do that
is to create a running average for RDOT over say 5-10 days and subtract
that running average off each RDOT value. A jag will be a value of RDOT
much different from the average of nearby days so will be non-zero.
Most of the other results will be zero or very close to it as the RDOT
on those days is exactly the same as other nearby days.

Then we sort the table by this "RDOT anomaly" and line it up with the
lon and lat of the asteroid on that particular day. If we are lucky
we might find on 2 different dates there was a similar jag at the
same lon and lat.

It turns out this simple procedure got lucky for Aurora:


Date RDOTanom ECLLON ECLLAT
2014.451 -7.66667e-07 59.1467 6.6549 | bingo! almost same place!
2020.066 -7.33333e-07 58.9586 6.6503 |
2006.183 -6.66667e-07 248.677 -7.2815
2006.189 -6.66667e-07 248.975 -7.2982
2006.194 -6.66667e-07 249.274 -7.3147
2006.202 -6.66667e-07 249.721 -7.339
2006.208 -6.66667e-07 250.02 -7.3549
2006.224 -6.66667e-07 250.916 -7.4017
2006.260 -6.66667e-07 252.859 -7.4969
2006.265 -6.66667e-07 253.158 -7.5107

So it seems Aurora has an orbit around 6 years and at the same point
on 2 different orbits it jagged off toward the sun a very little bit.
The RDOT is in km/sec to "-7.666e-7" is a mm/sec difference. :)

Now we must not get too excited. It's probably either Aurora's aphelion,
perihelion or maybe Jupiter was near lon 59 deg at the time.

Here's Jupiter's LON on the 2 days:

2014.451 118.436
2020.066 277.75

Well Jupiter's lon in neither near 59 nor on the opposite side of 59
and anyway on the 2 dates in question it was different value. It's not Jupiter.

OK. Let's check Aurora's R for those 2 dates:

2014.451 2.87624
2020.066 2.86067

Aurora has -- for an asteroid :) -- a pretty cirular orbit
with peri 2.9 and ap 3.5 au. So it was near perihelion on both
those dates. It might just be it was being jostled a bit by the sun.

You could check to see whether the sun was slightly off in that
direction (i.e. relative to the system barycenter) on the 2 dates,
but just being near peri or aphelion is probably going to kill this one off.

So the idea is -- do something like this for all asteroids
out far enough to be interesting, say 10 to 50 au, and
average over all the best results. There might be some consistent
(and probably slowly moving) position pointed at.

While more than 1 someone else probably has done all this you might hope
they had some rigid conventional assumptions you might relax.
E.g. many astronomers might be looking for objects that are visible to
at least space telescopes. If their procedure showed up some possibility
they might have looked across all the probe data to see if there was
something in that dir. If not they just shrugged and ignored the anomaly. :)

But if you get a consistent answer and even if no object seems to be there...
well.... maybe "they" can cloak a whole planet. :) :)

--
Hunting UFOs for the Government
BBC, 21 Jul 2022 11:37Z
Secretariat (Air Staff) was an official government position hunting for
UFOs. For his new BBC 5 Live series, Different, Nicky ...

Pentagon establishes office to track UFOs in space
The Department of Defense has created an office to track unidentified objects in space and air, under water, or even those ...
Space.com19h
[The data shows interactions between UFO's and "military aircraft"
strongly suggest they see them coming from deep space and pre-position
for the chase. Not to mention nightly chases involving light aircraft
and lights in the sky in sem-rural Victoria].

House committee advances legislation including deeper look into government
UFO reports
Fox News, 22 Jul 2022 01:34Z
The House Intelligence committee voted to send the Intelligence
Authorization Act for a full vote, including provisions that ...

How a UFO `got into a DOGFIGHT with a US fighter plane for 30 minutes in
400mph chase that left his jet radioactive'
The Sun, 21 Jul 2022 16:26Z
A US fighter pilot was reportedly left shaken after he spent 30 minutes
duelling in the sky with a white shape that appeared ...

Pentagon renames UFO office, expands mission to include `transmedium' objects
Defense News, 20 Jul 2022 22:53Z
Congress held its first hearing on UFOs in over a half centure. During the
hearing, lawmakers questioned Pentagon officials ...
[All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office -- AARO. Sounds serious!]

Skybuck Flying

unread,
Jul 25, 2022, 3:13:19 AMJul 25
to
On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 3:58:18 AM UTC+2, kymho...@gmail.com wrote:
> Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> > # telnet horizons.jpl.nasa.gov 6775
> > Connection to horizons.jpl.nasa.gov:6775 - ok
> > ????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > Unable to negotiate connection within 2 seconds. Defaults:
> > TERM= vt102, ROWS= 9999, COLUMNS= 9999, ECHO on, FULL-DUPLEX
> ...
>
> You must be using a new-fangled computer. :)

I used a web-based telnet first, but it would not allow the ? to be send. It had a swear word in hehe... it was being used to spam people apperently.

I considered installing telnet on windows, but it feels risky, plus adding it to windows to long, maybe it won't even work.,

So then I switch to putty.

Though it was added to the path environment variable... I allowed that cause I wasn't sure if it otherwise was not going to work.

But at least I can remove it from path later, to not give any hacker of this laptop a "powerfull" telnet client lol.... cause hackers seem to like telnetting lol.

>
> Capturing the output can be a problem for small things like getting
> orbital elements, but most queries at the end ask you if you want
> to ftp/wget the data back to yourself via an https: url that will live
> for 5-10 mins.

Hmm sounds like you may be describing some time out issues with https maybe if the data set becomes large because of many tiny objects... hmmm..

>
> By now I've uploaded quite a few things for the major planets and asteroids
> and there is enough real observational data -- as opposed to simulated
> models -- to give some interesting results for what I want.

What do you mean upload ? Do you mean uploading to horizon ?

>
> The dataset covers asteroids and comets that go out at least 10,000 au
> so there's a lot of territory to look at.

Cool, that would indeed be usefull to look at as many objects as far away as possible, cause planet X is out there somewhere... far away ! ;)

>
> The full dataset can be downloaded -- 100s of GB but available if you
> have the stomach for it -- and at last count had 1.2 million objects.

I have a USB portable harddisk lieing around, with an MS-DOS partition for retro gaming on real hardware but that stank lol.

I can probably make another logical partition and have about 2 terabytes free of space.

So I am willing to contribute/sacrifice this harddisk for an attempt to search for planet 9 or X or whatever lol.

>
> There are ways to isolate subsets (e.g. all aseroids with A between
> 10 and 100 au) for download as well as get lists of close approaches
> for a specific orbit in case you want to go out there and haul sommin back.
>
> I already clagged the system up for a min by typing the wrong query
> and generating a 60 MB answer the system had trouble storing for the
> ftp/wget readback. :}

Ouch, thanks for the heads up again.

> In the data I ran through you definitely do find little speed-ups and
> jags (looking at the params "r" and "rdot") where some asteroids and comets
> seem to feel gravity fields of other objects. But the trick for your problem
> is to gather all that stuff and see if it occurs in one direction where no
> known significant body is supposed to be.

OK.

If you have download scripts and a compute script.

I could try and run both on this laptop, or otherwise on my PC in the future, not my current PC cause it's "hurt bad haha" and I need it to survive till the arrival of the new king PC hehe, Raphael based most likely.

Or you could give some computation method and then I can try and implement it in Delphi ;) or maybe CUDA in future if CPU is too slow and maybe GPU will work in future.

(For maybe SSE could be tried as well).

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

R Kym Horsell

unread,
Jul 25, 2022, 3:40:29 AMJul 25
to
Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 3:58:18 AM UTC+2, kymho...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> > # telnet horizons.jpl.nasa.gov 6775
>> > Connection to horizons.jpl.nasa.gov:6775 - ok
>> > ????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> > Unable to negotiate connection within 2 seconds. Defaults:
>> > TERM= vt102, ROWS= 9999, COLUMNS= 9999, ECHO on, FULL-DUPLEX
>> ...
>>
>> You must be using a new-fangled computer. :)
>
> I used a web-based telnet first, but it would not allow the ? to be send. It had a swear word in hehe... it was being used to spam people apperently.
>
> I considered installing telnet on windows, but it feels risky, plus adding it to windows to long, maybe it won't even work.,
>
> So then I switch to putty.
>
> Though it was added to the path environment variable... I allowed that cause I wasn't sure if it otherwise was not going to work.
>
> But at least I can remove it from path later, to not give any hacker of this laptop a "powerfull" telnet client lol.... cause hackers seem to like telnetting lol.
>
>>
>> Capturing the output can be a problem for small things like getting
>> orbital elements, but most queries at the end ask you if you want
>> to ftp/wget the data back to yourself via an https: url that will live
>> for 5-10 mins.
>
> Hmm sounds like you may be describing some time out issues with https maybe if the data set becomes large because of many tiny objects... hmmm..
>
...

No. That's how it works. You identify an object by typing its name.
It shows you basic info to tell you whether you have the right object
(asteroids and moons sometimes having the same name).
Then you ask for "E" ephemeris and identify which variables you want.
It paginates the output and you can quit the listing and ask for
F (ftp). It takes the output you were looking at, puts in on a web page
and you have 5-10 mins to get it before it is deleted. They arent going
to keep the asnwer to everyone's query forever. :}

If you are having trouble with telnet or telnet-like things then
the other alternative that handles the FTP-ing back to you is
to use "except". This is yet another programming language for which
NASA/JPL has written some scripts so you can do common things like
upload a set of variables for a given planet/object between certain dates.
Other scripts allow you to plot where a given orbit would go through the
solar system, allowing all the interactions with the objects the
system tracks. And other scripts allow you to get lists of
close approaches with a specified object or orbit.

But "expect" is also probably something not easily seen in M/S platforms.
It's even slightly unusual for Linux/Unix but you can compile it up
from a tarball if you have to.

My only Windows laptop got fried by a local lightning strike a few years
back so I'm strictly Berkely Unix now (not even Linux). It was no problem to
find expect on an archive site and get it compiled and running.
I was able to run scripts from the JPL "SCRIPTS" directory within 24 hrs.

Skybuck Flying

unread,
Jul 25, 2022, 3:48:53 AMJul 25
to
> Just as an example using very simple methods.
>
> I've uploaded the data for (randomly) Aurora.
> We can build a table of the RDOT, ECLLON, and ECLLAT for the asteroid over
> the past 30y.

What do these three terms mean ? Where are they explained ?

Lon and Lat seem to be something with longitude and latitude.... ECL i don't know, RDOT I saw something flash by moving away from sun ? Hmmm...

> We are looking for jags in RDOT that may indicate the asteroid

With jags I take it you mean "a jerk movement caused by gravity" ;)

> was anomylously sped up (or slowed down) by the gravity field of another
> object appropriately nearby. Of course we are most likely to find that body
> is Jupiter or another major obj. But we are not going to just rely on 1
> asteroid. We will treat asteroids and comets like dust!

Cool idea and creative ! =D

> We process the RDOT numbers to look for jags. A simple way to do that
> is to create a running average for RDOT over say 5-10 days and subtract
> that running average off each RDOT value. A jag will be a value of RDOT
> much different from the average of nearby days so will be non-zero.

OK, I already got some code for moving averages, so shouldn't be too hard to implement ;)

> Most of the other results will be zero or very close to it as the RDOT
> on those days is exactly the same as other nearby days.

Perhaps compute another moving average of what the min and max fluctuations are.

Or even better yet, calculate a moving min and moving max, on top of that moving min and moving max respectively hehe.

So that there is also a moving min and moving max,,, I already have code that too, but this will be a little bit different, cause don't want to include "outerliers" the jerks/jerky movements hehe.

Anything that "moves" outside of this range could be marked as suspicious.

> Then we sort the table by this "RDOT anomaly" and line it up with the
> lon and lat of the asteroid on that particular day. If we are lucky
> we might find on 2 different dates there was a similar jag at the
> same lon and lat.

Ok... so the idea of yours is to find jerks that happen on the same position... assuming that the planet moves into the same position again. But what if it does not ? Hehe...

What if the planet has some strange elipsoid that moves, unlike other planets... that always move in the same way. Is it possible that a planet/elipsoid can move around.... like a moving elipsoid/circle... hmmm.... maybe this is one of the reason why it's so hard to find planet 9/x because it's always somewhere else... it's path rotates as well...

Maybe it's therefore better to look at any gravitional effect in any common direction... hmmmm... not sure if the dataset can be used to "infer" that.

So perhaps that is why you want to use RDOT... moving away from sun.... maybe there is better data to base it on like position of objects... and check if path of objects deviates from it's predicted path or something...

> It turns out this simple procedure got lucky for Aurora:


> Date RDOTanom ECLLON ECLLAT
> 2014.451 -7.66667e-07 59.1467 6.6549 | bingo! almost same place!
> 2020.066 -7.33333e-07 58.9586 6.6503 |
> 2006.183 -6.66667e-07 248.677 -7.2815
> 2006.189 -6.66667e-07 248.975 -7.2982
> 2006.194 -6.66667e-07 249.274 -7.3147
> 2006.202 -6.66667e-07 249.721 -7.339
> 2006.208 -6.66667e-07 250.02 -7.3549
> 2006.224 -6.66667e-07 250.916 -7.4017
> 2006.260 -6.66667e-07 252.859 -7.4969
> 2006.265 -6.66667e-07 253.158 -7.5107
>
> So it seems Aurora has an orbit around 6 years and at the same point
> on 2 different orbits it jagged off toward the sun a very little bit.

Interesting...

Hmm I don't quite understand this RDOT yet... how you know for sure it was towards the sun and not more to another place... hmmm but ok.

> The RDOT is in km/sec to "-7.666e-7" is a mm/sec difference. :)
>
> Now we must not get too excited. It's probably either Aurora's aphelion,
> perihelion or maybe Jupiter was near lon 59 deg at the time.

Hmm assumptions can be the mother of all fucks ups... let the data lead you to where ever it was.

Perhaps inspecting pull of other objects can triangulate a position of another gravitional object.

RDOT for jupiter, RDOT for other big objects...

Then based on that pull of other objects... if there is an unknown pull, then it becomes truely interesting.

So the opposite could be done as well. First explain pulls of other big objects and then start focussing on the smaller pulls of other objects, until there is no more explanation and thus perhaps something new is found.


> Here's Jupiter's LON on the 2 days:

Longitude ?

> 2014.451 118.436
> 2020.066 277.75
>
> Well Jupiter's lon in neither near 59 nor on the opposite side of 59
> and anyway on the 2 dates in question it was different value. It's not Jupiter.
>

LOL cool. Not jupiter hehe... ok you starting to rull out things good.

> OK. Let's check Aurora's R for those 2 dates:
>
> 2014.451 2.87624
> 2020.066 2.86067
>
> Aurora has -- for an asteroid :) -- a pretty cirular orbit
> with peri 2.9 and ap 3.5 au. So it was near perihelion on both
> those dates.

How you know for sure ?

> It might just be it was being jostled a bit by the sun.

Hmm maybe an assumption ? It might not be true.

> You could check to see whether the sun was slightly off in that
> direction (i.e. relative to the system barycenter) on the 2 dates,
> but just being near peri or aphelion is probably going to kill this one off.

Hmm what causes this most distant from the sun ?

How sure are we that the sun is responsible for this, if it is assumed to be so ? ;)

I would expect planet 9 to be responsible for this ! ;)

> So the idea is -- do something like this for all asteroids
> out far enough to be interesting, say 10 to 50 au, and
> average over all the best results. There might be some consistent
> (and probably slowly moving) position pointed at.

Hmm interesting idea, so only the really far objects, so that the near objects are excluded cause they might be influenced to much by the planets.

Alternatively everything could be looked at to see if everything moves in sync towards a planet 9 at the same date, with a jerk towards a certain planet 9 position or so... some kind of vector where each object is jerking towards, but the vector is different for every object.

> While more than 1 someone else probably has done all this you might hope
> they had some rigid conventional assumptions you might relax.
> E.g. many astronomers might be looking for objects that are visible to
> at least space telescopes. If their procedure showed up some possibility
> they might have looked across all the probe data to see if there was
> something in that dir. If not they just shrugged and ignored the anomaly. :)
>
> But if you get a consistent answer and even if no object seems to be there...
> well.... maybe "they" can cloak a whole planet. :) :)

It might not be visible because it's too hard away, or it's really small, maybe special material... maybe even element 115, the heavy element hehe...

Could also be a tiny black hole.

Or indeed another moon object moved there by aliens but this time cloacked as an observation station or even living space lol.

I have this suspicion, that aliens might be using us as "camouflage"... aliens come to destroy us... then the aliens leave believing it was purged and then the real aliens survive in secret/hiding... either deep in the earth or deep in the moon, or just cloacked lol.

> How a UFO `got into a DOGFIGHT with a US fighter plane for 30 minutes in
> 400mph chase that left his jet radioactive'
> The Sun, 21 Jul 2022 16:26Z
> A US fighter pilot was reportedly left shaken after he spent 30 minutes
> duelling in the sky with a white shape that appeared ...

This was in 1948.... most likely covered up by the blue book project.

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

Skybuck Flying

unread,
Jul 25, 2022, 4:10:08 AMJul 25
to
> No. That's how it works. You identify an object by typing its name.
> It shows you basic info to tell you whether you have the right object
> (asteroids and moons sometimes having the same name).
> Then you ask for "E" ephemeris and identify which variables you want.
> It paginates the output and you can quit the listing and ask for
> F (ftp). It takes the output you were looking at, puts in on a web page
> and you have 5-10 mins to get it before it is deleted. They arent going
> to keep the asnwer to everyone's query forever. :}

Can this be done with the JSON/HTTP API as well ?

https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/doc/horizons.html

if not some helpfull telnet examples could be usefull :)

> If you are having trouble with telnet or telnet-like things then
> the other alternative that handles the FTP-ing back to you is
> to use "except".

Downloading with FTP I have done before so that should not be a problem.

Figuring out the telnet commands and which parameters to use would be problem.

I am not familiar with the terminology so some explanations about what all the variables mean would be handy to have.

Plus examples of how to construct a telnet command or preferably a http request doing the same thing.

Why is FTP necessary ? Is the table per object that long/big ? Is it a table per object ? or is it a table of many objects with many positions ?

Would it not be easier to just download the entire database from somewhere instead of "filtering" out data with complex telnet commands ?

At least then later maybe more common SQL commands could be used, this might save some "learning time" of telnet scripts... though SQL can be difficult too and maybe this telnet is even easier, not sure yet, but processing it might get tricky... not sure what format the FTP download would be in ! ;)

That is why JSON would be preferred it's a standard format, with easy processing software, already done basically. JSON parser software already exist and easy to use.

Saves from having to write special telnet or ftp or nasa file format or whatever it is ;)

> This is yet another programming language for which
> NASA/JPL has written some scripts so you can do common things like
> upload a set of variables for a given planet/object between certain dates.

OK, now I understand what you mean with upload, you mean the parameters for the horizon database queries ;)

> Other scripts allow you to plot where a given orbit would go through the
> solar system, allowing all the interactions with the objects the
> system tracks. And other scripts allow you to get lists of
> close approaches with a specified object or orbit.

Not sure how that work, interpolation of points ? What kind of script language is this ? My preferred language of choice is Delphi ! ;)

Or anything that looks like Pascal ;)

>
> But "expect" is also probably something not easily seen in M/S platforms.

Sounds like exception... that had me confused for a moment ! ;)

So expect is the programming language name NASA gave it ? Hmmm

> It's even slightly unusual for Linux/Unix but you can compile it up
> from a tarball if you have to.
>
> My only Windows laptop got fried by a local lightning strike a few years
> back so I'm strictly Berkely Unix now (not even Linux).

This laptop has a loose GPU hehe, most likely caused by heat, connections let go.

I wonder how this laptop continues to do graphics, most likely by some kind of intel integrated graphics into the CPU, yeah for that ! =D

I have become a big fan of it ! LOL.

> It was no problem to
> find expect on an archive site and get it compiled and running.
> I was able to run scripts from the JPL "SCRIPTS" directory within 24 hrs.

Do you have a link towards it ? I am having slight troubles finding this... and been busy all day surfing the net for other things... so some help to shorten my search time be much appreciated ! ;) =D

I'm thinking of creating some kind of UFO Alert tool, possibly with a hexagon grid on top of an earth sphere... but oh boy... the math involved is pretty big and kinda surprised me...

The most interesting document I found for it so far was this one:

https://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/8/3/146

It talks about a "proposal" for an algorithm. I have seen another site / library which probably implemented it so it could be real.

Reason I would want this is to give users some privacy so they can select some segment/hexagon/pentagon that they are in.

GPS feels to much of a privacy risk... and then the government could bomb or otherwise kill those GPS positions lol. Don't feel good about GPS.

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

R Kym Horsell

unread,
Jul 25, 2022, 5:05:05 AMJul 25
to
Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just as an example using very simple methods.
>>
>> I've uploaded the data for (randomly) Aurora.
>> We can build a table of the RDOT, ECLLON, and ECLLAT for the asteroid over
>> the past 30y.
>
> What do these three terms mean ? Where are they explained ?

They are genreally explained in atronomy books concerned with the
structure of the solar system.
But they are also documented at the bottom of the files you
can download via Horizons.
r or R is generally the distance between the sun or solar system
barycenter and a planet or other object.
rdot is the rate of change (aka velocity) of r. In Horizons if
rdot is -ve the object is approaching the sun.
ecl == ecliptic -- the plane of the earth's orbit around the sun.
lon == longitude -- the angle between some rerence point like
the perihelion or ascending node and the planet in its orbit around
the sun.
lat == latitude -- the angle between the ecliptic plane and the position
of the planet.
Typically planets orbit in planes slightly different from the earth's orbit.
Mostly by 1-5 dec but Pluto e.g. is 17 deg off.
Interestigly, the latitude difference indicates the difficulty to
go from one planet to another -- most of the energy used in the
various burns goes into changing the plane of the orbit of the relevant
probe.

I'm happy to answer basic questions but there is a quota. ;)

>...

R Kym Horsell

unread,
Jul 25, 2022, 5:38:01 AMJul 25
to
Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> No. That's how it works. You identify an object by typing its name.
>> It shows you basic info to tell you whether you have the right object
>> (asteroids and moons sometimes having the same name).
>> Then you ask for "E" ephemeris and identify which variables you want.
>> It paginates the output and you can quit the listing and ask for
>> F (ftp). It takes the output you were looking at, puts in on a web page
>> and you have 5-10 mins to get it before it is deleted. They arent going
>> to keep the asnwer to everyone's query forever. :}
>
> Can this be done with the JSON/HTTP API as well ?
> https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/doc/horizons.html
> if not some helpfull telnet examples could be usefull :)
>...

I didn't know the same function was available via http directly.

But a simple example in using the telnet interface is below.
Looing at RA an DEC for venus (the planet!) for a couple years
day by day at midnight gmt.

You can look at ab object by its common name
but you sometimes have to point at which object with that
name is the one you want

Horizons> venus
*******************************************************************************
Multiple major-bodies match string "VENUS*"

ID# Name Designation IAU/aliases/other
------- ---------------------------------- ----------- -------------------
2 Venus Barycenter
299 Venus
-248 Venus Express (spacecraft) VEX

Number of matches = 3. Use ID# to make unique selection.
*******************************************************************************
Select ... [F]tp, [M]ail, [R]edisplay, ?, <cr>: 299

It shows you the various params to make sure you have the
right object: I want object 299 -- the centre of venus the planet.
2 is the barycenter of venus that may or may not be exactly the same thing.
For Jup and Sat the barycenter includes the mass of the moons and rings
and whatnot so if you use a telescope to aim at the RA and DEC
you may end up pointing a 1/2 min in the wrong direction sometimes.
These things matter if you're running a $billion observatory I guess. :)

Revised: April 12, 2021 Venus 299 / 2

PHYSICAL DATA (updated 2020-Oct-19):
Vol. Mean Radius (km) = 6051.84+-0.01 Density (g/cm^3) = 5.204
Mass x10^23 (kg) = 48.685 Volume (x10^10 km^3) = 92.843
Sidereal rot. period = 243.018484 d Sid. Rot. Rate (rad/s)= -0.00000029924
Mean solar day = 116.7490 d Equ. gravity m/s^2 = 8.870
Mom. of Inertia = 0.33 Core radius (km) = ~3200
Geometric Albedo = 0.65 Potential Love # k2 = ~0.25
GM (km^3/s^2) = 324858.592 Equatorial Radius, Re = 6051.893 km
GM 1-sigma (km^3/s^2) = +-0.006 Mass ratio (Sun/Venus)= 408523.72
Atmos. pressure (bar) = 90 Max. angular diam. = 60.2"
Mean Temperature (K) = 735 Visual mag. V(1,0) = -4.40
Obliquity to orbit = 177.3 deg Hill's sphere rad.,Rp = 167.1
Sidereal orb. per., y = 0.61519726 Orbit speed, km/s = 35.021
Sidereal orb. per., d = 224.70079922 Escape speed, km/s = 10.361
Perihelion Aphelion Mean
Solar Constant (W/m^2) 2759 2614 2650
Maximum Planetary IR (W/m^2) 153 153 153
Minimum Planetary IR (W/m^2) 153 153 153
*******************************************************************************
Select ... [E]phemeris, [F]tp, [M]ail, [R]edisplay, ?, <cr>:

And if you now want to download ephem data type E
If you type F here it sets up a URL just for the above text
which you have already seen.

If you select E then you get asked some more questions:

Observe, Elements, Vectors [o,e,v,?] : o
Coordinate center [ <id>,coord,geo ] : geo
Starting UT [>= 9999BC-Mar-15 21:51] : 2000-1-1
Ending UT [<= 9999-Dec-30 11:58] : 2001-12-31
Output interval [ex: 10m, 1h, 1d, ? ] : 1d

The "o" option puts you on the track to get parameters like
RA and DEC across a date rate, or any of ~60 other variables
they track.

It asks again to make sure you have everything straight:

Current output table defaults --
Reference frame = ICRF
Time zone correction = UT+00:00
Time format = CAL
Time digits output = MIN
R.A. format = HMS
RA/DEC extra precision= NO
Apparent coord. type = AIRLESS
Range units = AU
Suppress range-rate = NO
Minimum elevation = -90.0
Maximum airmass = 38.0000
Rise-Transit-Set only = NO
Skip daylight = NO
Solar elong. cut-off = 0,180
Hour angle cut-off = 0.000000000
RA/DEC rate cut-off = 0.0
CSV spreadsheet output= NO
Table quantities = A

Accept default output [ cr=(y), n, ?] :
Select table quantities [ <#,#..>, ?] :

This last Q is about which vars you want. You can type ?
to get the list:

1. Astrometric RA & DEC 17. N. Pole Pos. Ang & Dis 33. Galactic latitude
*2. Apparent RA & DEC 18. Helio eclip. lon & lat 34. Local app. SOLAR time
3. Rates: RA & DEC 19. Helio range & rng rate 35. Earth -> site lt-time
*4. Apparent AZ & EL 20. Obsrv range & rng rate >36. RA & DEC uncertainty
5. Rates: AZ & EL 21. Down-leg light-time >37. POS error ellipse
6. Sat. X & Y, pos. ang 22. Speed wrt Sun & obsrvr >38. POS uncertainty (RSS)
7. Local app. sid. time 23. Sun-Obs-Targ ELONG ang >39. Range & rng-rate sig.
8. Airmass & Extinction 24. Sun-Targ-Obs~PHASE ang >40. Doppler/delay sigmas
9. Apparent visual mag. 25. Targ-Obsrv-Moon/Illum% 41. True anomaly angle
10. Illuminated fraction 26. Obs-Primary-Targ angle *42. Local app. hour angle
11. Defect of illumin. 27. Radial & -vel posn.ang 43. PHASE angle & bisector
12. Sat. angle separ/vis 28. Orbit plane angle 44. Target solar lon (L_s)
13. Target angular diam. 29. Constellation name *45. Inertial app. RA & DEC
14. Obs sub-lon & lat 30. Delta_T (TDB - UT) 46. Rate: Inertl RA & DEC
15. Sun sub-lon & lat *31. Obsrv eclip lon & lat 47. Sky motion: rate & ang
16. Sub-Sun Pos Ang & Dis 32. North pole RA & DEC 48. Luna Sky-Brt & sky-SNR

A = All quantities B = Body-center -> Any C = Body-cntr -> Small-bdy
D = Topo -> Small-body E = Body-center -> Spacraft F = Topo -> Spacecraft

Or you can type a list of numbers or one of the letters.
I type 1 to say I want RA and DEC only this time.

Working ...
*******************************************************************************
Ephemeris / PORT_LOGIN Mon Jul 25 02:22:11 2022 Pasadena, USA / Horizons
*******************************************************************************
Target body name: Venus (299) {source: DE441}
Center body name: Earth (399) {source: DE441}
Center-site name: GEOCENTRIC
*******************************************************************************
Start time : A.D. 2000-Jan-01 00:00:00.0000 UT
Stop time : A.D. 2001-Dec-31 00:00:00.0000 UT
Step-size : 1440 minutes
*******************************************************************************
Target pole/equ : IAU_VENUS {East-longitude positive}
Target radii : 6051.8 x 6051.8 x 6051.8 km {Equator, meridian, pole}
Center geodetic : 0.00000000,0.00000000,0.0000000 {E-lon(deg),Lat(deg),Alt(km)}
Center cylindric: 0.00000000,0.00000000,0.0000000 {E-lon(deg),Dxy(km),Dz(km)}
Center pole/equ : ITRF93 {East-longitude positive}
Center radii : 6378.1 x 6378.1 x 6356.8 km {Equator, meridian, pole}
Target primary : Sun
Vis. interferer : MOON (R_eq= 1737.400) km {source: DE441}
Rel. light bend : Sun, EARTH {source: DE441}
Rel. lght bnd GM: 1.3271E+11, 3.9860E+05 km^3/s^2
Atmos refraction: NO (AIRLESS)
RA format : HMS
Time format : CAL
^[[7m < Scroll & Page: space, <cr>, <b>ack, OR arrow keys. <q> ends display. > 4
%^[[m^[[K^[[KEOP file : eop.220722.p221014

EOP coverage : DATA-BASED 1962-JAN-20 TO 2022-JUL-22. PREDICTS-> 2022-OCT-13
Units conversion: 1 au= 149597870.700 km, c= 299792.458 km/s, 1 day= 86400.0 s
Table cut-offs 1: Elevation (-90.0deg=NO ),Airmass (>38.000=NO), Daylight (NO )
Table cut-offs 2: Solar elongation ( 0.0,180.0=NO ),Local Hour Angle( 0.0=NO )
Table cut-offs 3: RA/DEC angular rate ( 0.0=NO )
*******************************************************************************
Date__(UT)__HR:MN R.A._____(ICRF)_____DEC
**********************************************
$$SOE
2000-Jan-01 00:00 15 57 07.37 -18 18 59.7
2000-Jan-02 00:00 16 02 05.49 -18 35 06.9
2000-Jan-03 00:00 16 07 04.81 -18 50 46.8
2000-Jan-04 00:00 16 12 05.31 -19 05 58.6
2000-Jan-05 00:00 16 17 06.96 -19 20 41.5
2000-Jan-06 00:00 16 22 09.75 -19 34 54.9
...

You scroll through the output and you can go through it or quit at some point.

Scroll & Page: space, <cr>, <b>ack, OR arrow keys. <q> ends display. 13%

Then it asks:

Select... [A]gain, [N]ew-case, [F]tp, [M]ail, [R]edisplay, ? : f

Select F if you want it to store that listing for pickup via ftp,
wget or browser or whatever took you use.

You have 10 minutes to retrieve the following by anonymous FTP:
Machine name: ssd.jpl.nasa.gov
Directory : cd to "/pub/ssd/"
File name : wld21149.15
File type : ASCII (transfer format)
Full path : https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/ftp/ssd/wld21149.15

You can keep going or quit.

Select... [A]gain, [N]ew-case, [M]ail, [R]edisplay, ? : q

Skybuck Flying

unread,
Jul 27, 2022, 4:01:23 AMJul 27
to
Wow that was a lot of stuff/work.

I am still fuzzy on what the exact output would be of all this work ? I hope it's not all of this text because that would be a pain in the ass to parse somewhat.

Maybe you can upload a small sample of that FTP download ?

Or even better try to HTTP/JSON web request thingy.

I had a feeling you might not have known about it, because I read it in the telnet news section of horizon ! Cool eh ! ;) =D

So I am a little bit curious what the output format would be of the FTP file ? Then I or you might be able to answer the question: Is it easy to parse / process ?

Maybe you already showed on of them tables, but show it one more time to be sure.

If it's not easy to parse I might not bother with it... because it's very boring to write that code... the ammount of information shown by you is already very boring lol...

But maybe there is something intereseting in there... right now... staring at all that information... oh my god... what is especially annoying is all the abbrevations... I can understand for some people who are down with all the terms it might be nice and short, but for me it's mumbo jumbo at this point. Hehe.

And then everything has to be put together to try and form some kind of mental/conceptual model how to go about this.

But perhaps you can step in and find some other interesting variables. So far you only mentioned RDOT and LAT/LONG from elipse nature.

Is there anything else in there that we can use to find "gravitional jerks/jags" ?

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

R Kym Horsell

unread,
Jul 27, 2022, 4:34:47 AMJul 27
to
Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow that was a lot of stuff/work.
> I am still fuzzy on what the exact output would be of all this work ? I hope it's not all of this text because that would be a pain in the ass to parse somewhat.
> Maybe you can upload a small sample of that FTP download ?
>...

I posted exactly that. An example of the interaction with Horizons plus
part of the output for a particular set of data for the RA/DEC of venus
each day at 0:0 gmt between a couple of years.

I can put some of the Horizons files for some asteroids and comets on
my web site but they will be eactly the same as you can get from Horizons
yourself. No saving to anyone.

R Kym Horsell

unread,
Jul 27, 2022, 4:53:36 AMJul 27
to
R Kym Horsell <k...@kymhorsell.com> wrote:
> Skybuck Flying <skybuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Wow that was a lot of stuff/work.
>> I am still fuzzy on what the exact output would be of all this work ? I hope it's not all of this text because that would be a pain in the ass to parse somewhat.
>> Maybe you can upload a small sample of that FTP download ?
>>...
>
> I posted exactly that. An example of the interaction with Horizons plus
> part of the output for a particular set of data for the RA/DEC of venus
> each day at 0:0 gmt between a couple of years.
>
...

I've put some files on <kymhorsell.com/HORIZONS/>. Each text file is
1 year of data for one asteroid. There is also a compressed Linx/Unix tarball
with all the files in it.

Each text file has comments at top and bottom telling you exactly what
the data is supposed to be. Each column is described at the bottom.
In between "SOE" and "EOE" lines is the data in columns.

It's not 100% ready for a C program to read but you should be able
to tinker up a script in your fave text language to batter it into
some fixed format a program can read. The easy way may just be to
take the date column and 1 other column and put them out into a 2-column
text file and do that for each column you are interested in.

2 of the columns should be as previously shown -- the "r" and "rdot"
for each asteroid for each day at 0000 gmt where r is the dist
between the center of the sun and the center of the asteroid in AU
and rdot is the time rate of change of r in km/sec.

Also included is the distance and speed relative to earth.

You'll be amused to read in the comments that many corrections to
the original observations taken at Mauna Kea include allowing for
the speed of light from the distant objects plus any bending of
the light due to gravity fields it had to pass by to get from the
object to the earth. You can even allow for distortion by the earth's
atmosphere but that is generally switched off in anything I have.
No point in being too accurate. :)

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages