Homosexuality in the birth chart
Ken
I heard mars was an indicater.
Ken
Pat Anderson
Like everything else in human nature, sexuality is a complex
issue, and homosexuality does not simplify it in any signifi-
cant way. Lee Lehman (sp) presented a paper on this at the
last NCGR annual meeting. She carefully did a statistical
analysis of the traditional indicators of homosexuality
in a chart, and found no indicator with a statistically
significant showing to point out homosexuality. To me, this
implies that we should be cautious about relying on indicators
of this sort. If you see a number of potential indicators,
you may want to cautiously raise the issue, but don't
count on getting an affirmative response. Even the way
I was originally taught (which did say that you could find
homosexuality in the natal chart), there were different
types of homosexuality, and I was taught that the indicators
were different for gay men than they were for lesbians.
Now, having said all the proper cautious responsible
things to say, I will admit that I personally believe
that I can see enough indicators of homosexuality in the chart
to raise a strong suspicion, whether or not I have ever met
or talked with the person. Everytime I have had the opportunity
to test this out, I have been correct. I do *not* have a
statistically significant sample, and am always cautious
with this due to the high potential for psychological or
social injury. The client may not wish to discuss this
issue, or they may not have completely accepted this
issue into their life. In either of these instances,
there is the potential to do great harm.
Pat Anderson, p...@nwu.edu
--
Pat Anderson, p...@nwu.edu
Dermod Moore
attended a stunning lecture by Liz Greene in London yesterday on "Male
and Female in the horoscope" in which she said the same thing.
--
Dermod...@astrolog.demon.co.uk
Metalog: "That which is being discussed is also arising"
Ken
This fascinates me. Would anyone like to participate in a little experiment. I have left word in alt.homosexual
and soc. motss for some individuals birth data to see if there is any indication.
Ken
Pete Stapleton
>From: der...@astrolog.demon.co.uk (Dermod Moore)
>Path: pagesat.net!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.
>Subject: Re: Homosexuality in the birth chart
D>I don't believe that homosexuality can be seen in the birth chart. I
>attended a stunning lecture by Liz Greene in London yesterday on "Male
>and Female in the horoscope" in which she said the same thing.
D>Dermod...@astrolog.demon.co.uk
Pete Stapleton comments: you are absolutely right. You cannot see
homosexuality in the birth chart and Liz Greene agrees with you. Are
you an astrologer? If so, have ever cast any charts for homosexuals? It
is important to do so when you make such sweeping statements.
If you have cast homosexual charts and are still of the opinion that
there isn't a homosexual astro signature - then why don't you post one
of those charts and I will point out the obvious for you.
Regards, Pete
Chris Malcolm
>I don't believe that homosexuality can be seen in the birth chart. I
>attended a stunning lecture by Liz Greene in London yesterday on "Male
>and Female in the horoscope" in which she said the same thing.
Since the brains of male homosexuals show differences in the average
size of the corpus callosum compared to het males (it's larger,
half-way between the av male and av female size), and since the brains
of many male homosexuals show sensitivity to female endocrine period
triggers which het male brains do not, this is surprising. I hope that
what Liz Green meant was that "we know of no astrological indicators"
rather than "there are no atrological indicators".
--
Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aifh +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
"The mind reigns, but does not govern" -- Paul Valery
Paul Schlyter
Dermod Moore <der...@astrolog.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I don't believe that homosexuality can be seen in the birth chart. I
> attended a stunning lecture by Liz Greene in London yesterday on "Male
> and Female in the horoscope" in which she said the same thing.
Finally she's seen SOME light !!!!
I wonder how long it'll take untli Ms Greene realizes that no other
personal properties can be seen in the birth charts either....
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Swedish Amateur Astronomer's Society (SAAF)
Nybrogatan 75 A, S-114 40 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pau...@saaf.se p...@ausys.se
Dermod Moore
> Since the brains of male homosexuals show differences in the average
> size of the corpus callosum compared to het males (it's larger,
> half-way between the av male and av female size),
This I am aware of.....
> and since the brains
> of many male homosexuals show sensitivity to female endocrine period
> triggers which het male brains do not,
This I am not aware of. Could you cite references please?
>this is surprising.
Why should it be surprising? An astrological chart is simply a record of a moment in time. That
can be the birthchart of a man or woman, frog or opera house. The fact that homosexuality per se
in my experience can not be seen in a birthchart indicates to me that psychological factors are
not involved in the make-up of a gay man or a lesbian woman. In other words, astrology, IMHO,
supports the essentialist position on homosexuality rather than that of the social
constructionists.
>I hope that
> what Liz Green meant was that "we know of no astrological indicators"
> rather than "there are no atrological indicators".
My message related to my beliefs about the subject, and included a reference to the fact that
Liz "said the same thing" in her seminar. It is not her style to lay down the law on astrology,
and I apologise if that is what I inferred.
> Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aifh +44 (0)31 650 3085
> Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
> 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
> "The mind reigns, but does not govern" -- Paul Valery
>
Pat Anderson
Schlyter) wrote:
> I wonder how long it'll take untli Ms Greene realizes that no other
> personal properties can be seen in the birth charts either....
Just asking for clarification (not a flame, please!) --
What do you mean by "personal properties"? Thanks!
--
Pat Anderson, p...@nwu.edu
JP
following, which applies to the Indian classical system of sidereal
astrology. In Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra, Chapter 20, "Effects of the
Seventh House," verse 13, "If Venus is situated in the Navamsha [9th
subdivisional chart] of Saturn or in the signs of Saturn [Capricorn and
Aquarius], and Venus being
in conjunction with or being aspected by Saturn, the combination will
make the native ready to kiss the private parts of the male."
Well, I guess that, in a male chart, refers to a specific act rather than
the general topic of homosexuality, but it's the closest I've seen in a
classical text. The only thing I would add is that if there is only one
indication for something in a chart (e.g., wealth, etc.) then it doesn't
always manifest, but if there are many indications of a single thing, it
tends to be reliable.
Matt Schaefer
Dermod Moore
> I wonder how long it'll take untli Ms Greene realizes that no other
> personal properties can be seen in the birth charts either....
I will gladly enter into debate with anyone about astrology who has actually studied it. If you
insist on challenging the basic tenets of astrology, then I suggest you take your arguments to a
more suitable forum. I for one would like alt.astrology to be a forum for astrologers alone.
What is it about astrology that invites such petty opposition?
Dermod Moore
Stapleton) writes:
> Are you an astrologer?
Yes
> If so, have ever cast any charts for homosexuals?
Yes, many
>It is important to do so when you make such sweeping statements.
Naturally. I stated my belief. What's yours?
> If you have cast homosexual charts and are still of the opinion that
> there isn't a homosexual astro signature
Why would I have changed my mind? This particular astro signature of
homosexuality, could you enlighten me as to what it is?
>- then why don't you post one
> of those charts and I will point out the obvious for you.
>
> Regards, Pete
I'll do better than that. Here are four human birthcharts. Please do me the
honour of pointing out the "obvious" significators of their owners'
sexuality. To make it interesting, and particularly because your patronising
tone grated with me, ;-) , most, but not all of them, are birthcharts of
homosexual persons.
A: 6th July 1966 1.47am (BST -1:00) 52N14 0E43 (Asc: 24 TA)
B: 6th September 1961 5.30am (BST -1:00) 53N23 6W15 (Asc: 0 VI)
C: 2nd February 1964 23:57 (GMT) 53N23 1W30 (Asc: 27 LI)
D: 30th December 1960 20:10 (EST +5:00) 40N38 73W56 (Asc: 22 LE)
E: 17th November 1954 21:00 (NZT -12:00) 36S52 174E46 (Asc: 18 GE)
Regards,
Dermod
Pete Stapleton
>From: p...@nwu.edu (Pat Anderson)
>Newsgroups: alt.astrology
>Subject: Re: Homosexuality in the birth chart
P>In article <3kkgq7$m...@electra.saaf.se>, pau...@electra.saaf.se (Paul
>Schlyter) wrote:
P>> I wonder how long it'll take untli Ms Greene realizes that no other
>> personal properties can be seen in the birth charts either....
P>Just asking for clarification (not a flame, please!) --
>What do you mean by "personal properties"? Thanks!
>Pat Anderson, p...@nwu.edu
Pete Stapleton replies: Pat, little amateur paul is the resident anti
astro clone. All he posts here are anti astrology tirades - and on
occasion snips that take direct aim at a part of astrology that has
been proven to exist to a scientific certainly. Point, he doesn't know
anything about astrology and constantly exposes that ignorance here.
What is truly a mystery about little amateur paul the anti astro clone
is that he has demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge about astronomy
- yet he still signs his anti astro clone posts here with a reference to
some astronomical society of Sweden. I know he doesn't know anything
about astronomy because you cannot get him to answer questions about
astronomy. I have been trying to get him to cite the source of the
zero aries point used by all astronomers to measure their celestial
sphere for over a year now - and all I have ever been able to get back
directly are personal insults. So even if little amateur paul were to
answer you - it would be difficult to know if he was being truthful or
just answering in his normal evasive manner.
Regards, Pete
Pete Stapleton
J>Newsgroups: alt.astrology
>Path: pagesat.net!news.erinet.com!netcom.com!jpaul
>From: jp...@netcom.com (JP)
>Subject: Re: Homosexuality in the birth chart
J>Maharshi Parasara, an ancient Vedic astrologer (jyotishi) wrote the
>following, which applies to the Indian classical system of sidereal
>astrology. In Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra, Chapter 20, "Effects of the
>Seventh House," verse 13, "If Venus is situated in the Navamsha [9th
>subdivisional chart] of Saturn or in the signs of Saturn [Capricorn and
>Aquarius], and Venus being
>in conjunction with or being aspected by Saturn, the combination will
>make the native ready to kiss the private parts of the male."
Pete Stapleton comments: this is serious news. Imagine, and ancient
Vedic astrology wrote about "Effects of the Seventh House" anciently.
The problem here is that house system delineation wasn't introduced to
the Vedic or Hindu system until the 4th century AD. Also, it is my
understanding the Navamsha chart is one where all the longitudes of the
original chart are multiplied by 9 and the results are then read as a
kind of micro aspect chart. However, there is also the school of
thought were there is a 2nd Navamsa, a 3rd Navamsa and on and on ad
nauseum. But again why not - if you don't like what you see with one
chart - why just keep multiplying by nine until you get one you like.
Kind of like the tropical lecturer at the Astrological Guild of the
Pacific - he spent a great amount of time telling how to cast the
tropical solar return exactly - second of arc and all the good stuff.
And then he finished his lecture with the comment that if you had
trouble reading the chart - sometimes it was best to just turn it upside
down - worked for him.
J>Well, I guess that, in a male chart, refers to a specific act rather than
>the general topic of homosexuality, but it's the closest I've seen in a
>classical text. The only thing I would add is that if there is only one
>indication for something in a chart (e.g., wealth, etc.) then it doesn't
>always manifest, but if there are many indications of a single thing, it
>tends to be reliable.
Pete STapleton comments: I wonder if you could give us the results of
your own personal research. There is a great controversy related to
Hindu astrology, a controversy far from settled by present day Hindu
practitioners. Hence, ancient script is suspect unless the zodiac is
defined (which one of the four of five currently in use). So here is a
place where personal observations of homosexual charts possible have
greater value that observations gleaned from the past.
Regards, Pete
Pete Stapleton
(Continued from previous message)
anything in Leo almost doubles it's power.
B: 1961 Sep 06 - 05:30 am - (cast for London Eng)
Venus +0.01 (ecliptic Latitude) Sun 19 leo 11 (0 degree eclat)
Uranus 3 leo 04 (ec long) Approx 1 degree away from a perfect
15 degree aspect to the Sun also in Leo. So we have a Sun partile
parallel Venus in Ecliptic Latitude - conjunct Uranus by
constellation (both Sun and Uranus in Leo) and approx 16 degrees
away from Uranus by a 15 degree aspect.
C: 1964 Feb 02 - 11:57 Pm - (cast for London Eng)
Venus 26 Aquarius (ec long) Uranus 14 Leo 49 (ec long) This gives
a constellational opposition between Venus in Aquarius and Uranus in
Leo. The Venus is within the astrological influence we say is much
like that of Uranus - which give some help to the wide opposition.
Not perfect, but there. Also, we get a little more power to this
wide Venus in Aquarius/Uranus in Leo when you consider the ecliptic
latitude of Venus is -1.02 while that of Uranus is +0.48 minutes.
So here we have a midpoint of the two that adds up to 0.07 minutes
of ecliptic latitude - 7 minutes away from a parallel of the Sun
which is always found at 0 degrees of ec latitude. Again wide, but
there. There is one more Venus/Uranus relationship that is worth
mentioning within this chart. Helio latitude Venus is found at
-1.42, while Helio latitude Uranus is found at +0.46. Add them
together and you find -0.56. And if you cut that in half to find
the mid point between Helio latitude Venus and Helio latitude
Uranus - you get -0.28 minutes of Helio Latitude for the midpoint
of Venus/Uranus. And of course a -0.28 minutes of Helio latitude
forms a precise contra parallel to the fixed star regulus - the
little king
found at +0.28 minutes of Helio latitude and of course at 5 degree
06 minutes of the constellation of Leo in helio longitude. So here
again we can find a Venus/Uranus of some power.
D: 1960 Dec 30 - 08.10 pm (cast for New York City, Nyo)
Venus 00 Aquarius 00 (ec long) Uranus 01 leo 02 (ec long)
Here we have a very powerful square between Venus and Uranus -
the effect given great power by Venus being partile 0 degrees.
And again we find Venus in the Constellation of Aquarius - an
astrological influence said to be similar to the astrological
influence of the planet Uranus. We get a little more power
from the Helio Venus found at 13 Aries 26 Helio Longitude - and
Uranus found at 29 Cancer 00 - helio long. This is within a
half a degree of a 105 degree aspect.
e: 1954 Nov 17 - 09.00 pm (cast for Sidney Australia
Venus 27 Lib 07 (ec long) Uranus 03 can 30 (ec long) - nothing
Venus -3.15 (ec lat ) Uranus +0.31 (ec lat ) - nothing
Venus - 21.12 Dec Uranus + 21.09 Dec
an almost partile contra parallel in Dec --- Bingo
So now we are left with the problem of which one does and which one
doesn't - and the answer is that the question isn't truly relevant.
Remember as astrologers we are not supposed to be psychic. I don't
allow the client to sit and stare at me while I tell him/her all
the wonderful things about him/her I have found in the chart. I do
point out the clients strengths and weaknesses as found in the chart
one at a time - and I ask for feedback while I'm doing it.
I don't have to prove myself to my clients. I got over that stupidity
a long time ago. I'm being paid to do something for my client - not
impress the client with my ability to bare their soul. So I see things
in a chart and I ask if what I see exists within their subjective
knowledge of who they think they are. If I find what I'm looking for -
then I consider the client astrologically normal in that particular
manifestation fo their birth imprint. It's when there is an astro
signature that the client says doesn't manifest itself within their
personality that a chart reading gets interesting. For now you have the
fun of trying to figure out where the energy that you know must be there
is coming out -how is it being sublimated or modified by a stronger
astro influence.
So here supposedly we have one or all five of the charts that
represent a hetro sexual. And I say that I would ask all five of
these clients about their sexual orientation as a matter of course due
to the obvious strong Venus/Uranus energy found in all five. It may be
true that one cannot tell the sex of a person from a chart - but
if one knows the chart represents a human being - then that old saw
may not be true - you can tell which role the person assumes within an
interpersonal regardless of the plumbing.
Note also, I really don't engage in games when I do astrology. I am
happy to play with you in this instance, but I don't think I know
how to do so. I am happy to have the chance to do some astrology
instead of personal attack rebuttal. So if I have evaded your quest to
test my ability to predict the sexuality of a person - I can only say
that I don't have an astrology that works that way. My astrology works
every time - but it is not based upon psychic reception - I don't get a
flash about the persons sexuality - I look to Venus and it's modifiers
to find out how a person relates to themselves and hence how they will
relate to others. Here, all of the charts reflect a strong potential
for being a little different within an interpersonal. Now,
would you take the time to go through those charts you have that you
know are homosexuals and see if you can find one where Venus/Uranus
(Continued to next message)
Pete Stapleton
(Continued from previous message)
isn't prominent. See if you can find one without the Venus/Uranus
astro signature of the homosexual. Regards, Pete (comment please)
Pete Stapleton
D>Newsgroups: alt.astrology
>From: der...@astrolog.demon.co.uk (Dermod Moore)
>Subject: Re: Homosexuality in the birth chart
>Stapleton) writes:
D>> Are you an astrologer?
D>Yes
D>> If so, have ever cast any charts for homosexuals?
D>Yes, many
D>>It is important to do so when you make such sweeping statements.
D>Naturally. I stated my belief. What's yours?
D>> If you have cast homosexual charts and are still of the opinion that
>> there isn't a homosexual astro signature
>homosexuality, could you enlighten me as to what it is?
>> of those charts and I will point out the obvious for you.
>> Regards, Pete
D>I'll do better than that. Here are four human birthcharts. Please do me the
>honour of pointing out the "obvious" significators of their owners'
>sexuality. To make it interesting, and particularly because your patronising
>tone grated with me, ;-) , most, but not all of them, are birthcharts of
>homosexual persons.
D>A: 6th July 1966 1.47am (BST -1:00) 52N14 0E43 (Asc: 24 TA)
D>B: 6th September 1961 5.30am (BST -1:00) 53N23 6W15 (Asc: 0 VI)
D>C: 2nd February 1964 23:57 (GMT) 53N23 1W30 (Asc: 27 LI)
D>D: 30th December 1960 20:10 (EST +5:00) 40N38 73W56 (Asc: 22 LE)
D>E: 17th November 1954 21:00 (NZT -12:00) 36S52 174E46 (Asc: 18 GE)
D>Regards, D>Dermod
Pete Stapleton replies: Dermod, good show - not only do I get some
good marks in grate ability - but we also get to do some astrology. So
if my grating personality bothered you, I apologize, but I really don't
see why you are complaining - think of what I'm going through, I have to
live with the guy. However, all is well that produces astrological
debate based upon astrology rather than whether I'm taking some kind of
pill to keep me from becoming a raging maniac and attacking those who
are diddling the toad.
As a forward to this discussion, a few months ago here on this
alt.astrology use, the subject of what astro signature would signify a
homo sexual - or a sexuality which was contra indicated by the plumbing
of the individual. At that time I made the point which was the result
of a great amount of research into the subject (did a lot of charts)
that the astro signature of a homosexual was a Venus/Uranus
combination. However, I did qualify the Venus/Uranus homosexual Id tag
as always being present in homosexual charts - but a Venus/Uranus
combination could also be present in those who were hetro sexual.
This finding of an astro signature for homosexuality that didn't
always create a homosexual was a puzzle to me at first. The problem was
solved for me when a client walked into my Honolulu office and
complained of being divorced three times and wanted to know if astrology
could tell her what she was doing wrong. The young lady was approx 28,
a nice figure and very attractive. So I told her that she might not
need a chart cast - but from her looks and demeanor - she just might be
moving too fast - trying to live in the fast lane and sampling
everything she could while the getting was good. So I suggested she
take life a little slower and maybe enjoy the savor to a greater degree.
She was polite enough to be gracious and then told me she wasn't too
concerned about the three divorces - she was concerned because all three
of her husbands had left her for another man. So while trying to remove
my foot from my mouth I did her chart. The lady was a very strong
Venus/Uranus.
I did the charts of her three ex husbands - they also had
Venus/Uranus highlighted within their charts. A puzzle - which took
me some time to figure out. When it finally dawned on me that what a
Venus/Uranus does is create a roll switch within an interpersonal. Even
if both parties are hetro sexual - they will still switch the normal
role within their particular relationship. What was taking place with
my lady Venus/Uranus client is that she was taking charge of her
relationships - assuming the male role in a very feminine way. She
would make the decisions as to which restaurant, which show, where to go
and what to do, etc. And the men she found being Venus/Uranus also were
happy to have her do so.
So with that bit of past trivia in mind, we will look at the
charts you post about. Note: I cast these charts without taking the time
to look up the names of the cities. For me to use my atlas program, I
need the name of the city - not just the long and lat. Still, even
though I was unable to use any angles or altitudes - there was still
enough to work with with
as follows:
A: 1966 Jul 06 - 01.47 am - (cast for London Eng)
Venus 17 Taurus 05 (ecliptic longitude) Uranus22 leo 02 (eclg)
This is a wide square - but both the Venus and the Uranus are found
in Hub constellations which gives them added strength - and of
(Continued to next message)
Karl Welz
>Ken
In the majority (more than 70%!) of homosexuals that I did charts for, I
noticed the very dynamic (and aggressive) aspect Mars / Uranus. However, not
every Mars/Uranus is homosexual. Looking at other aspects
indicating sexuality can give additional indications. I do refrain from
interpreting M/U alone, of course.
*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Karl Hans Welz | |
| Magitech University | |
| HSCTI -- Hyper Space Communications | |
| and Technologies International, Inc. | |
| e-mail: Al...@magitech.tcastle.is.net | |
| http://magitech.tcastle.is.net/ | |
*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
Chris Morris
homosexuality or the tendency to be homosexual.
oracle
: an indication. Also certain sun signs are prone (scorpio, aquarius) if
: they have a lot of squares. This was told to me by a women who has made
: astrology a life long quest.
Grrr. Sorry, I'm not gay, but I don't buy it. I had a gay roomate for
several months, a remarkable young astrologer, who I was lucky to learn
from for a time, and though he leans toward accepting astrological
indicators for homosexuality, I do not.
I have met enough gay men and women to know that there are as many types
of gay people as there are people. I think in times past, the freedom of
sexual expression, and associated societal pressures (Uranus square Mars,
the so-called "classical" homosexual indicator) could be more reflective
of societal angst and taboo than of the sexuality of the native. You
will find licentious heterosexuals with Mars Square Uranus with as much
frequency as you will heterosexuals. It may indicate the STYLE of
lover (faithful, freedom-loving, etc), but not necessarily the sexual
preference.
I think any search for signs of homosexuality in the natal chart is
innately political, and is usually used to justify one position or the
other. To practicing astrologers, the point is moot. One can council
using terms such as "your mate/partner/lover ..." and come to a helpful
conclusion.
Brandi
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Denise M. Maier
in aspect to Venus or another personal planet, and in a male chart look to
Uranus in aspect to Mars or other personal planets. Look also for these to
be angular or more pronounced. Also, if one looks to the minor aspects
between these planets, there may be an answer there.
James Slodzik
>In the majority (more than 70%!) of homosexuals that I did charts for, I
>noticed the very dynamic (and aggressive) aspect Mars / Uranus. However, not
>every Mars/Uranus is homosexual. Looking at other aspects
>indicating sexuality can give additional indications. I do refrain from
>interpreting M/U alone, of course.
Western astrology predates the terms "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" by
about 2000 years. I personally feel that there is little suggest that these mythical
qualities can be seen in natal charts, and would spend little time looking for them.
Incidently, what would you gather from the Mars/Uranus arrangement in my chart?
14:45 BST (+1:00 UTC) 13-MAY-1967 51N40 0E40
I've been *called* all sorts of things from "Bent as a nine-bob note" to "closet
heterosexual". I see heterosexual and homosexual qualities in me as indeed
I do in everyone.
James Slodzik
(ja...@therion.demon.co.uk)
Dermod Moore
> I think any search for signs of homosexuality in the natal chart is
> innately political, and is usually used to justify one position or the
> other. To practicing astrologers, the point is moot. One can council
> using terms such as "your mate/partner/lover ..." and come to a helpful
> conclusion.
Brandi,
I deleted all that I agree with in your posting; I like your astrological style. However, with
regard to the search for signs of homosexuality in the chart, surely it depends on the context.
A gay client wondering about the significance and meaning of his/her sexuality, who is on a
philosophical journey, is not necessarily politically motivated. It is up to us as astrologers
to reflect on this issue if we see clients, who may or may not be gay or lesbian. A discussion
about whether or not sexual preference can be seen in charts goes right to the core of
astrology, and human nature. To dismiss the search as innately political is sidestepping the
issue, IMHO.
It is not that I see politics as a bad thing, either. It is my belief, however, that some people
take to the idealogical barricades to hide a lot of pain. Sex and sexuality is incredibly
politicised in this last third of the twentieth century, since the Uranus-Pluto conjunction in
the Sixties. Karl Welz's point about Mars/Uranus contacts in homosexual charts makes sense for a
certain generation, I believe. (But it could also say something about Karl Welz!). The current
late teenage/early twenties generation has an incredibly different and enlightened attitude to
sex and sexuality compared to us oldies (and I'm only 32!). For them, there is perhaps less of a
need for their Mars to need the revolutionary thrust of Uranus to help them come out and break
the mould.
Patrick Gootjes
Astrolog 4.10 chart for September 3, 1953 12:40am (+2:00 GMT) 18:30E 33:58S
Body Locat. Ret. Decl. Rul. House Rul. Veloc. Placidus Houses.
Sun : 10Vir08 + 0:00' (-) [ 4th house] [-] +0.969 - House cusp 1: 28Tau28
Moon: 10Can10 + 2:01' (R) [ 2nd house] [e] ______ - House cusp 2: 29Gem02
Merc: 5Vir51 + 1:47' (R) [ 3rd house] [R] +1.955 - House cusp 3: 3Leo24
Venu: 4Leo35 - 0:13' (-) [ 3rd house] [-] +1.183 - House cusp 4: 8Vir39
Mars: 22Leo31 + 1:10' (-) [ 3rd house] [-] +0.635 - House cusp 5: 10Lib12
Jupi: 23Gem42 - 0:35' (F) [ 1st house] [-] +0.124 - House cusp 6: 6Sco20
Satu: 24Lib22 + 2:19' (e) [ 5th house] [F] +0.098 - House cusp 7: 28Sco28
Uran: 21Can44 + 0:26' (-) [ 2nd house] [d] +0.045 - House cusp 8: 29Sag02
Nept: 22Lib05 + 1:39' (-) [ 5th house] [-] +0.029 - House cusp 9: 3Aqu24
Plut: 23Leo29 + 9:22' (-) [ 3rd house] [-] +0.031 - House cusp 10: 8Pis39
Chir: 15Cap16 R + 7:10' (d) [ 8th house] [-] -0.023 - House cusp 11: 10Ari12
Cere: 21Leo51 + 6:16' (-) [ 3rd house] [-] +0.449 - House cusp 12: 6Tau20
Pall: 20Can55 -28:40' (d) [ 2nd house] [-] +0.568
Juno: 21Can04 -10:20' (-) [ 2nd house] [-] +0.518 Car Fix Mut TOT +: 9
Vest: 20Aqu07 R - 8:46' (e) [ 9th house] [-] -0.197 Fir 0 4 0 4 -:11
Node: 1Aqu06 R + 0:00' (R) [ 8th house] [-] ______ Ear 2 1 2 5 M: 6
Fort: 28Pis30 _______ (R) [10th house] [-] ______ Air 2 2 1 5 N:14
Midh: 8Pis39 _______ (-) [10th house] [R] ______ Wat 4 0 2 6 A:13
Asce: 28Tau28 _______ (-) [ 1st house] [R] ______ TOT 8 7 5 20 D: 7
Vert: 16Cap37 _______ (-) [ 8th house] [-] ______ <:12
Ken
>In <Algol.124...@Magitech.tcastle.is.net>, Al...@Magitech.tcastle.is.net (Karl Welz) writes:
>>In the majority (more than 70%!) of homosexuals that I did charts for, I
>>noticed the very dynamic (and aggressive) aspect Mars / Uranus. However, not
>>every Mars/Uranus is homosexual. Looking at other aspects
>>indicating sexuality can give additional indications. I do refrain from
>>interpreting M/U alone, of course.
>Western astrology predates the terms "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" by
>about 2000 years. I personally feel that there is little suggest that these mythical
>qualities can be seen in natal charts, and would spend little time looking for them.
By what do you mean by stating homosexuality is "myhtical" Or am I not reading you correctly.
Ken
>Incidently, what would you gather from the Mars/Uranus arrangement in my chart?
> 14:45 BST (+1:00 UTC) 13-MAY-1967 51N40 0E40
>I've been *called* all sorts of things from "Bent as a nine-bob note" to "closet
>heterosexual". I see heterosexual and homosexual qualities in me as indeed
>I do in everyone.
>James Slodzik
>(ja...@therion.demon.co.uk)
Ken Anderson
ke...@i-2000.com
old email address k...@halcyon.com
Terri
by: Karl Guenter Helmsoth M.D.
Published by: American Federation of Astrologers
6535 South Rural Rd.
Tempe, AZ 85283
Mailing Addresss:PO Box 22040
Tempe,AZ 85282
Translated from the German
-Charakter-Konstellation ...Munich, 1928-
A little book and interesting...I think my copy was about 8 bucks.
Also while I have read the book I don't have enough study into the
subject to have more than that opinion on the book.
BTW ...I didn't mail away for mine , so don't know if the address is
currently valid....I bought it at a little Astrological/Metaphysical
bookstore nearby....
Hope that is of intrest...
Terri B.
Jef Simpson
marker for homosexuality. I personally do not believe there is a marker for
homosexuality but then I have only 41 years experience and the charts of
over 600 homosexuals to study. But your statement a couple of days back was
quite adamant about you having sure knowledge about how to spot a
homosexual person or else I have completely misunderstood your use of the
English language.
--
Jef Simpson, Astrologer.
Cosmic Data-Bank, Vancouver BC Canada
jef_s...@mindlink.bc.ca
Apo...@nyo.com
>attended a stunning lecture by Liz Greene in London yesterday on "Male
>and Female in the horoscope" in which she said the same thing.
Dr (<ahem>) Green will have to step to the back of the bus on that one. Lee
Lehman has been saying that since the late 70's, when she conducted a study
searching for statistically significant 'signatures' using a database of 1000
charts of gay men ( not sure whether or not her study included lesbians or not).
She found absolutely NOTHING of statistical significance. Of course, the chart
doesn't say whether you're a man or a woman , dog or a building either.
Lehman wrote two articles on this - one in 1980 for CAO Times, and another for
the NCGR journal , I think Winter of 86/87.
Of course, the chart doesn't say whether you're a man or a woman , dog or a
building either.
_____________
Michelle Lundy
: In the majority (more than 70%!) of homosexuals that I did charts for, I
: noticed the very dynamic (and aggressive) aspect Mars / Uranus. However, not
: every Mars/Uranus is homosexual. Looking at other aspects
: indicating sexuality can give additional indications. I do refrain from
: interpreting M/U alone, of course.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... this is interesting. I wonder what you would have
to say about my horse's Mars/Uranus square...
The problem with trying to discern things like a person's sexual bent (or
moral characteristics, or even whether the person is male or female)
from an astrological chart is that the _person is not the chart_. The
person is giving an expression to the configurations of the chart - one
possible synthesis. The trouble is, there are many possible
expressions compressed in any chart - and many possible sytheses of the
planetary placements. The cosmic mind-stuff of astrology is neutral - and
plastic enough to be shaped to any situation, object, or person. The chart
could just as easily be for somebody's poodle, (some of you may remember
a certain astrologer who had this little joke played on her). But then,
who knows what goes on in little poodle minds...
--
Michelle Lundy
mlu...@lamar.colostate.edu *Destiny is a matter of Destination*
mlu...@vines.colostate.edu
Michelle Lundy
: I understand that moon in cancer is sometimes considered as influencing
: homosexuality or the tendency to be homosexual.
I was born under a Cancer Moon, and I can tell you, I am not only very
heterosexual, but I also look at homosexuality as a pathology... a not
too politically-correct stand to take in light of today's (fashionable)
view of homosexuality.
oracle
: A gay client wondering about the significance and meaning of his/her sexuality, who is on a
: philosophical journey, is not necessarily politically motivated.
So often it is the ASTROLOGER'S interest in the significance or meaning
of the client's sexuality, and so rarely the client's interest in my
personal experience.
Allow me to share .. but I will wiggle some details a bit to protect
identitie. I had a close companion who lived with me for a time. I
admit I loved him greately, and we shared a strong affection, but his gay
orientation was a source of struggle for us at times. At the time I was
practically surrounded by astrologers and psychics, all of whom cared for
me, and could see my feelings (perhaps more clearly than >I< could), all
of whom assured me that he was NOT gay "really", that he would come
around to "heal" his Mars Squared Uranus which was implied to be an
AFFLICTION that was at the root a "cause" of his homosexuality.
I realized that there was a great deal more to be said about the
homophobia and heterocentrism in my well meaning friends than their was
in his personal expression of his homosexuality or his feelings about
it. He resented people who tried to "cure" him, and quite rightly so.
He is still happliy gay, and I am happy that he continues to express
himself for who he is, not who they (or I) might wish him to be.
I feel that as a counsellor, I can entirely ignore sexuality in a reading
unless the sexuality is an issue or a problem for the client, which in
99% of cases it is NOT. Let me give another example.
I have a variety of metaphysical interests, and at this time I was
working as a palmist. My client was a lovely young woman in her 20's,
bubbly, articulate and funny. I began to speak about her "husband" and
she really perked up. Her eyes twinkled when I described him as tall,
athletic, dark haired and ambitious, and said I was absolutely right, her
partner was an athlete. I predicted a pregnancy a year down the line,
and she laughed and said, "No way. You were right about everything about
my partner, except I'm gay and my partner is a woman." I stuck to my
guns about the pregnancy though, and we had a good laugh. A year or so
later she took the time to tell me she and her partner had decided to
become parents together, and she was now pregnant (though they did not
offer any details to me on the arrangement! ;)
The point is, her sexual orientation was utterly irrelevant to the
meaningfulness of the encounter. Since then, I have refered to the mate
as "Your partner" or lover, in non-gender specific terms. Only rarely do
I slip up, and it's almost always with a gay client, which to me is the
Universe's way of keeping that in my mind.
It is up to us as astrologers
: to reflect on this issue if we see clients, who may or may not be gay or
lesbian. A discussion
: about whether or not sexual preference can be seen in charts goes
right to the core of
: astrology, and human nature. To dismiss the search as innately political
is sidestepping the
: issue, IMHO.
I respect your opinion, but I think you are dead wrong. In fact, I know
a gay astrologer who might agree with you, but he has reasons of his own
(again political) for looking for sexual orientation in charts (namely to
justify his belief that one is "born gay", to which I answer, it NEEDS NO
justification, so whether one is born gay or chooses to be gay (and I've
met gay people of both opinions) is beside the point).
: It is not that I see politics as a bad thing, either. It is my belief,
however, that some people
: take to the idealogical barricades to hide a lot of pain.
Absolutely true.. In the case of homosexuality that pain is not innate
to the orientation, it is innate to societal pressures and taboos that
surround it, an issue often missed when one is looking at Mars/Uranus
contacts. One might manifest that energy in a dozen ways I can think of,
regardless of one's orientation, and one can cut out of the mold and not
be gay. I'm not gay, and I've rebelled against dozens of taboos ;)
Pete Stapleton
J>From: Jef_S...@mindlink.bc.ca (Jef Simpson)
Pete Stapleton replies: Jef, I did post an answer about the astro
signature of homo sexuals. I downloaded the five birth dates - cast the
charts, and then showed how each of the charts had a strong ( one
weaker) Venus/ Uranus.
Venus Uranus is the astro signature of homosexuals. I bow to your
experience as anyone would. However I do question your astrology if you
have cast over six hundred charts of homosexuals and are unaware of the
Venus/Uranus signature.
Note, I have been posting here for some time that house systems don't
reflect any astrological influence what so ever. I have been posting
here for some time that the tropical zodiac doesn't measure any
astrological influence found in the sky. And recently I have posted
charts which show that within my astrology I use Ecliptic longitudes
and latitudes, percentage of motion, Declination, Helio Longitude and
Latitude, and altitude to cast my horoscopes, plus angulars when the
birth time is accurate and other secondary indicators of the
astrological influences found in the sky. Note that all of these
systems of measurement of the astrological influences found in the sky
were a result of watching data streams which record the human decision
making process for over 15 years. I would enquire if you have done
the same. If not, then I suggest you take the time to do the work as I
have done - to prove or disprove whether these additional systems of
measurement do in fact reflect the astrological influences. I can assure
you the results of such an inquiry will quickly open your eyes to a
whole new world of astrology. So I defer to your 41 years of experience
as an astrologer, but question an astrology that doesn't include approx
75% of what's up there astrologically.
Note also I have been posting here that those who are professional
tropical astrologers are in fact psychics, who call what they do
astrology and really haven't taken the time to prove to themselves that
what they do is not primarily psychic reception. How do you
explain your zodiac being a reflection of a flat earth belief. How do
you explain that your zodiac moves one degree every year in relation to
the fixed stars - so that every 72 years each of your signs measures a
different portion of the sky? And I would venture to guess
that you haven't taken the time to think about what a tropical
zodiac is all about. And why should you? Your astrology works and
nothing more is to be said.
Certainly you as a 41 year practitioner will admit you use the house
systems to delineate your tropical charts. Yet, where in the sky are
these areas of house delineation to be found. And the answer is they
don't exist in the sky and that house system delineation doesn't have
anything to do with what's up in the sky. Look for yourself, or if
not, please explain to me how you can use a system that is totally in
error when it comes to calculation of the intermediate cusps.
So rest assured you didn't misunderstand my English. What I said is
that I have studied the matter and the astro signatures of Homo sexuals
is Venus/Uranus. I would be happy to prove this to you in any way you
would like to proceed. My statement is that if you have a homosexual,
there will always be a strong Venus/Uranus. Mars/Uranus creates people
who drive cars fast (after they have checked the tires).
This exchange illuminates one of the major problems facing astrology
today. You as a 41 year practitioner are certain of your findings. I
wouldn't disagree with you for a moment that you are sincere in your
beliefs. However, after trying to answer the above questions I have
posed to you about tropical astrology and tropical housology, I say
that you have been working with psychic reception - not astrology. And
this difference is what is keeping astrology from regaining it's
rightful place as the first science.
So how would you go about deciding the matter? Let's do it, and let's
do it right here on the alt.astrology use. I am certain I posted the
post showing the Venus/Uranus within each of the five birth dates given
here,, but will check to see. If not, it will follow this post.
Please don't take umbrage if my manner seems arrogant - it's who I am.
As a 41 year practitioner of astrology you have a lot to offer here. So
let us explore this difference in our astrologies together - we will
both learn and maybe even get to the point where we will agree on
something.
Regards, Pete
Pete Stapleton
Pete Stapleton
Pete Stapleton
D>Newsgroups: alt.astrology
>From: der...@astrolog.demon.co.uk (Dermod Moore)
>Subject: Re: Homosexuality in the birth chart
>Stapleton) writes:
D>> Are you an astrologer?
D>Yes
D>Yes, many
D>>It is important to do so when you make such sweeping statements.
D>Naturally. I stated my belief. What's yours?
D>> If you have cast homosexual charts and are still of the opinion that
>> there isn't a homosexual astro signature
>homosexuality, could you enlighten me as to what it is?
>> of those charts and I will point out the obvious for you.
>> Regards, Pete
D>I'll do better than that. Here are four human birthcharts. Please do me the
>honour of pointing out the "obvious" significators of their owners'
>sexuality. To make it interesting, and particularly because your patronising
>tone grated with me, ;-) , most, but not all of them, are birthcharts of
>homosexual persons.
D>A: 6th July 1966 1.47am (BST -1:00) 52N14 0E43 (Asc: 24 TA)
Dermod Moore
writes:
>(comment please)
To sum up my experience of our interchange.
It is interesting for me to debate with someone who works with a different system of
astrology than that which I and all my colleagues and fellow students work. I have only
met one person who works with Sidereal charts. Her field is financial astrology, and she
finds that she gets a much better insight into the markets using Sidereal. She also
recommends that everyone should look at a person's chart under the two systems, and see
what insights come up. I have done so, in the past, but have found that tropical works
best for me; it suits me. As I am sure Sidereal suits you. I believe Tropical works in
psychological astrology especially well (as opposed to horary or financial or mundane).
This maybe due to the fact that it takes its frame of reference from the seasons, from
the natural cycles of the Earth. I am prepared to accept that Sidereal astrology works at
a different level, placing its anchor at a far-removed point of time and space; this
gives a different perspective entirely. It probably has its own strengths and weaknesses
as a system, same as Tropical. But I detect a tone of Absolute Authority from you and
other Siderealists which, as I have already remarked, grates with me; and, from what I
can see, I am not the only one. Your rubbishing of a very interesting contribution by JP
(jp...@netcom.com) on what classical Indian Vedic astrology has to say about the subject
is a case in point. I would hope that a spirit of mutual respect for each others' skills
and techniques prevails in this forum.
With regard to the subject at hand: I believe that neither of us won or lost in my
challenge to you to prove a homosexual "astro-signature". We have too many different
frames of reference. What is accepted as a significant aspect by me is not accepted by
you, and vice-versa. I also believe that we as astrologers attract clients who reflect
or complement our own charts, our own perception of the world. In this thread we have
Karl Welz's contribution in which he sees a highly pronounced incidence of Mars/Uranus
contacts in his homosexual clients. I have no reason to doubt him. This does not mean
that he is right and you and I are wrong.
I am quite prepared to accept that you can find Venus/Uranus contacts in every chart that
you come across of a homosexual person. In my practice it is quite common, but not common
enough for me to believe that it signifies anything in particular about the sex of the
partner.
We are both right about our clients. Can we agree to differ, and will you accept that the
so-called "obvious" astro signature for homosexuality can not be written in stone?
Regards
Dermod Moore
> Venus 17 Taurus 05 (ecliptic longitude) Uranus22 leo 02 (eclg)
> This is a wide square - but both the Venus and the Uranus are found
> in Hub constellations which gives them added strength - and of
Yes, I would call this a strong Venus/Uranus chart- but then it is also a strong
Venus/Pluto chart. This person is a gay man, in a relationship for one year, who is also
the loving father of a little girl.
> B: 1961 Sep 06 - 05:30 am - (cast for London Eng)
> Venus +0.01 (ecliptic Latitude) Sun 19 leo 11 (0 degree eclat)
> Uranus 3 leo 04 (ec long) Approx 1 degree away from a perfect
> 15 degree aspect to the Sun also in Leo. So we have a Sun partile
> parallel Venus in Ecliptic Latitude - conjunct Uranus by
> constellation (both Sun and Uranus in Leo) and approx 16 degrees
> away from Uranus by a 15 degree aspect.
I would pay attention to the twelfth house positions of both Venus and Uranus, and see
them as being very important in this chart- but I don't use 15 degree aspects. The longer
your list of aspects, the harder it is to refute your claim that Venus/Uranus aspects are
the astro signature of homosexuality. This person is a lesbian woman, in a relationship
for over five years, and she also has a child.
> C: 1964 Feb 02 - 11:57 Pm - (cast for London Eng)
> Venus 26 Aquarius (ec long) Uranus 14 Leo 49 (ec long) This gives
> a constellational opposition between Venus in Aquarius and Uranus in
> Leo. The Venus is within the astrological influence we say is much
> like that of Uranus - which give some help to the wide opposition.
> Not perfect, but there.
I would agree. I have concentrated on the Venus/Chiron opposing Uranus/Pluto issues with
this client. In this instance, it is a judgement call; I feel the opposition, although
very wide, is relevant.
> Also, we get a little more power to this
> wide Venus in Aquarius/Uranus in Leo when you consider the ecliptic
> latitude of Venus is -1.02 while that of Uranus is +0.48 minutes.
> So here we have a midpoint of the two that adds up to 0.07 minutes
> of ecliptic latitude - 7 minutes away from a parallel of the Sun
> which is always found at 0 degrees of ec latitude. Again wide, but
> there. There is one more Venus/Uranus relationship that is worth
> mentioning within this chart. Helio latitude Venus is found at
> -1.42, while Helio latitude Uranus is found at +0.46. Add them
> together and you find -0.56. And if you cut that in half to find
> the mid point between Helio latitude Venus and Helio latitude
> Uranus - you get -0.28 minutes of Helio Latitude for the midpoint
> of Venus/Uranus. And of course a -0.28 minutes of Helio latitude
> forms a precise contra parallel to the fixed star regulus - the
> little king
> found at +0.28 minutes of Helio latitude and of course at 5 degree
> 06 minutes of the constellation of Leo in helio longitude. So here
> again we can find a Venus/Uranus of some power.
I find all this rather tortuous nit-picking. I don't buy it; but I tend to work with a
chart on a macroscopic, impressionistic way, rather than in a microscopic, forensic way.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess..
This person is a gay man, in a relationship for six years.
> D: 1960 Dec 30 - 08.10 pm (cast for New York City, Nyo)
> Venus 00 Aquarius 00 (ec long) Uranus 01 leo 02 (ec long)
> Here we have a very powerful square between Venus and Uranus -
> the effect given great power by Venus being partile 0 degrees.
> And again we find Venus in the Constellation of Aquarius - an
> astrological influence said to be similar to the astrological
> influence of the planet Uranus. We get a little more power
> from the Helio Venus found at 13 Aries 26 Helio Longitude - and
> Uranus found at 29 Cancer 00 - helio long. This is within a
> half a degree of a 105 degree aspect.
Venus/Uranus? Absolutely. Very powerful for this man. And, yes he is gay; currently, as
far as I know, not in a relationship.
>
> e: 1954 Nov 17 - 09.00 pm (cast for Sidney Australia
> Venus 27 Lib 07 (ec long) Uranus 03 can 30 (ec long) - nothing
> Venus -3.15 (ec lat ) Uranus +0.31 (ec lat ) - nothing
> Venus - 21.12 Dec Uranus + 21.09 Dec
> an almost partile contra parallel in Dec --- Bingo
I would count this as a definite Sun/Venus trine Uranus/Jupiter. Not a very powerful
aspect, I grant you; but significant nevertheless. In my book. This woman is
heterosexual, a single mother.
>
> So now we are left with the problem of which one does and which one
> doesn't - and the answer is that the question isn't truly relevant.
It is, as you made the claim that there is a definite astro signature which is "obvious".
Or have you forgotten? That is why I weighed in so vigorously against you and called your
bluff.
> Remember as astrologers we are not supposed to be psychic. I don't
> allow the client to sit and stare at me while I tell him/her all
> the wonderful things about him/her I have found in the chart. I do
> point out the clients strengths and weaknesses as found in the chart
> one at a time - and I ask for feedback while I'm doing it.
Naturally.
> I don't have to prove myself to my clients. I got over that stupidity
> a long time ago. I'm being paid to do something for my client - not
> impress the client with my ability to bare their soul. So I see things
> in a chart and I ask if what I see exists within their subjective
> knowledge of who they think they are. If I find what I'm looking for -
> then I consider the client astrologically normal in that particular
> manifestation fo their birth imprint. It's when there is an astro
> signature that the client says doesn't manifest itself within their
> personality that a chart reading gets interesting. For now you have the
> fun of trying to figure out where the energy that you know must be there
> is coming out -how is it being sublimated or modified by a stronger
> astro influence.
I wouldn't put it exactly in those words, but I do agree about unlived aspects to a chart
being the key to unlock a lot of problems; often a lot of rage, pain, or grief.
> So here supposedly we have one or all five of the charts that
> represent a hetro sexual.
I was a little clumsy in the wording of my "challenge" but I meant to say that one, or at
most, two, were of a heterosexual person. Chart "D" as it turns out.
> And I say that I would ask all five of
> these clients about their sexual orientation as a matter of course due
> to the obvious strong Venus/Uranus energy found in all five. It may be
> true that one cannot tell the sex of a person from a chart - but
> if one knows the chart represents a human being - then that old saw
> may not be true - you can tell which role the person assumes within an
> interpersonal regardless of the plumbing.
I seriously doubt that.
>
> Note also, I really don't engage in games when I do astrology. I am
> happy to play with you in this instance, but I don't think I know
> how to do so. I am happy to have the chance to do some astrology
> instead of personal attack rebuttal. So if I have evaded your quest to
> test my ability to predict the sexuality of a person - I can only say
> that I don't have an astrology that works that way.
I'm glad to hear you say it. No-one does, in that there is no perfect system that
explains everything. If there were, it would have been accepted by all a long time ago.
> My astrology works every time - but it is not based upon psychic reception
I disagree. I think that something goes on intrapsychically between astrologer and
client. The client projects the archetype of healer and possibly fortune teller on to the
astrologer; the astrologer must be aware of this and work accordingly. There is a great
danger of an astrologer falling into the trap of believing that they are fate-givers and
all-powerful; that they are never wrong. I have seen this work with psychoanalysts as
well. They start to identify with the archetype. It is hubris. In this circumstance, the
clients remain disempowered, kowtowing to the all-knowing one, instead of feeling masters
of their own lives.
>- I don't get a
> flash about the persons sexuality - I look to Venus and it's modifiers
> to find out how a person relates to themselves and hence how they will
> relate to others. Here, all of the charts reflect a strong potential
> for being a little different within an interpersonal.
Agreed.
> Now,
> would you take the time to go through those charts you have that you
> know are homosexuals and see if you can find one where Venus/Uranus
> isn't prominent. See if you can find one without the Venus/Uranus
> astro signature of the homosexual.
Here are two for starters, both of gay men:
E: 19 January 1969 21:20 (BST -1:00) London 51N30 0W10.
(Actually, my computer program lists a Venus/Uranus aspect in this chart of a
QuinqueUndecagon, which is 163 degrees 22 minutes. If you want to count that, then I give
up)
F: 8 February 1964 01:15 (GMT) Dublin 53N23 6W15
As this has been a mammoth posting, I shall sum up in another message.
Dermod Moore
> In the case of homosexuality that pain is not innate
> to the orientation, it is innate to societal pressures and taboos that
> surround it,
Therefore it is of no small import whether the person has exercised any choice in the matter. I
agree some people, especially in later life, do choose their sexuality. But I believe most
people don't.
But I do acknowledge my political interest. Touch.
Dermod Moore
> Dr (<ahem>) Green will have to step to the back of the bus on that one.
What is it about the narky, bitchy competitiveness in this newsgroup? I never claimed
that she was saying anything original, nor did she- I posted it to weigh in on one side
of the argument. As for the <ahem> I have no idea what you mean; she is both a doctor in
psychology AND a Jungian analyst. What's your beef?
Does anyone have the chart for the alt.astrology newsgroup itself? The date the computer
was switched on, or the date of the first message?
> Lee
> Lehman has been saying that since the late 70's, when she conducted a study
> searching for statistically significant 'signatures' using a database of 1000
> charts of gay men ( not sure whether or not her study included lesbians or not).
> She found absolutely NOTHING of statistical significance.
That's interesting; it matches my experience.
>
> Lehman wrote two articles on this - one in 1980 for CAO Times, and another for
> the NCGR journal , I think Winter of 86/87.
I presume these are American journals. Would you be so kind as to post details of where I
can get back issues? I would like to see that study.
Regards
Dermod
Margaret Rodieck
Margaret Rodieck responds - Enjoyed your discourse. About 20 years ago I attended
an astrology lecture at a Chicago convention where the astrologer (speaker) gave a
terrific lecture on homosexuality. (He was gay). He never explained his statement that
homosexuals are "born, not made". He felt quite strongly about it.
Anyway, commenting on your remark that your client's aren't concerned about
their own homosexuality, perhaps its the age difference, but some of mine sure are. Perhaps
because they are older and went through those years when it was quite unacceptable.
It doesn't sound like that's the case today because the occasional gay client I read
appears very comfortable with it. My older clients vividly recall the difficulties and pain
they encountered.
I'm no expert on homosexuality and how its represented in the chart - haven't read enough
homosexual charts - but don't you think that one's sexual needs and desires are reflected?
Sexual issues whether gay or heterosexual appear to be real issues to some people and
often the cause of great distress (if not satisfactory). Also know a lot of Mars/Uranus straight
people.
Enjoyed reading your discourse. Regards - Margaret
Apo...@nyo.com
>I wonder how long it'll take untli Ms Greene realizes that no other
>personal properties can be seen in the birth charts either....
Paul, there is only one response to this. Answer one question. Are you an
astrologer? Have you studied astrology under the tutelage of an accomplished
astrologer for at least 2 years? If not, then there is absolutely no validity to
your opinions because you are speaking from ignorance.
_____________
Pete Stapleton
D>From: der...@astrolog.demon.co.uk (Dermod Moore) >eton)
>writes:
>>(comment please)
D>To sum up my experience of our interchange.
>It is interesting for me to debate with someone who works with a different
system of astrology than that which I and all my colleagues and fellow
students work. I have only met one person who works with Sidereal
charts. Her field is financial astrology, and she finds that she gets a
much better insight into the markets using Sidereal. She also
>recommends that everyone should look at a person's chart under the two
systems, and see what insights come up. I have done so, in the past, but
have found that tropical works best for me; it suits me. As I am sure
Sidereal suits you.
Pete Stapleton comments: Dermond - thanks for the nice tone. I do
believe that if we can communicate without rancour - then maybe I can
learn some astrology.
I believe the militancy you encounter with siderealists has to do with
how one defines the term astrology. If Astrology as the study of the
effect of what's up in the sky upon what's down here on Earth - then if
you will agree there is only one sky up there - then there can only be
one astrology. This has to be true since we all work with the
same sky, and it must follow there can only be one set of astrological
influences emanating from that one sky. So to suggest there are two
things that can be called astrology (tropical and Sidereal) seems to
defy what we can observe with the naked eye.
This is the basic controversy found in all discussions of astrology.
The astronomers say astrology cannot exist because the Tropical zodiac
doesn't measure anything found in the sky. They believe this because
they know what you are calling a tropical sign of Taurus today, would
have been measuring something different 72 years ago - and in fact, has
changed some 24 degrees from what that same tropical sign of Taurus
measured approx 1800 years ago. However, astronomers tend not to
go that far in their thinking. They operate on the findings of their
predecessors - those post Corpernicus pragmatists who were upset by
learning for the first time the accepted astrological doctrines of
the day (15th century) could not be true. Astrologers (there were no
astronomers before 1500) were certain our Earth was flat, standing
still and the center of our Universe. This is what you were taught if
you majored in the first science of astrology at that time.
Specifically, that the first day of spring (the Vernal Equinox) was
forever fixed to some imaginary celestial fiduciary found beyond the 8th
rotating sphere of Ptolomey's and Hipparchus astrology. When Corpernicus
suggested our Earth was orbiting around our Sun, instead of the Sun
orbiting around our Earth would make made a better information model of
our solar system, the tropical zodiac and a fixed vernal equinox
disappeared from astrology and science like a puff of smoke. The
mistaken belief that the Vernal Equinox was fixed (didn't move) vanished
from intelligent reality and of course also caused the tropical zodiac
dependent upon a fixed Vernal Equinox to also vanish from astrology.
This is the observational truth of the matter. The tropical zodiac
doesn't now and never has measured anything found in the sky. Since
astrological influences must emanate from the sky, regardless of ones
definition of astrology, then what you are saying is that your astrology
doesn't have a celestial base.
I know you don't think you are advocating an astrology that doesn't have
a source within the celestial sphere. What is more to the point, I
don't think it makes any difference if what I say is true - since you
know your astrology works no matter anyone says about your zodiac,
or that house systems don't exist in the sky either. And the reason you
are so certain that your astrology works, is because you do things with
it every day that prove it does work. You are able to use your
astrology to predict things for clients that actually come true. So why
should you care if others say your astrology doesn't work - you prove it
does to yourself every time you cast a chart.
Now how can this be? If you know you have an astrology that works, and
I can prove to you that that same astrology doesn't depend upon the
astrological influences actually found in the sky and hence cannot be
astrological - then what is it that you are doing that makes you so
certain you astrology is viable. And the answer is ( an answer
arrived at after three years of research at the Temple Of AStrology
which used to exist in down town Los Angeles, Ca) that tropical
astrology is a psychic resource, not an astrological one.
Note you cannot prove or disprove my statement that you are are first
and foremost practicing and teaching psychic reception and calling
what you do astrology using your own subjective proof. The only way
you can prove or disprove my statements is either by comparison or by
objective experiments. Comparison requires objectively measure the
subjective reactions of clients. While all that objective analysis
requires is that you verify your astrology works in the same way when
you use the same zodiacal or house indicator to arrive at your
conclusions.
I also suggest that seasonal changes on the earth's surface have
nothing to do with astrological influences found in the celestial
(Continued to next message)
Pete Stapleton
(Continued from previous message)
sphere. Such seasonal changes are reversed south of the Equator, and if
you think about it - there isn't any point on the Earth's surface that
really enjoys the seasons in the same way. So Ptolomey's statement
that he was convinced the zodiac had to start with the first day of
Spring in the northern hemisphere because he could look around and see
the new beginnings of life at this time doesn't allow an astrology south
of the Equator - nor one at the North or South pole.
So again I would ask you, if you are not using the astrological
influences found in the sky to do your astrology, then what is it you
are doing? Is it possible you are using what you call astrology as a
take off point for your psychic talent and calling what you do
astrology?
Regards, Pete
(much good stuff snipped which will be answered in following posts)
Pete Stapleton
D>From: der...@astrolog.demon.co.uk (Dermod Moore)
>In article: <95032207...@fatal.com> pete.st...@fatal.com (Pete Sta
>eton)
>writes:
>>(comment please)
D>To sum up my experience of our interchange.
(stuff snipped which was answered in previous post)
D>With regard to the subject at hand: I believe that neither of us won or lost
> my challenge to you to prove a homosexual "astro-signature". We have
too many different frames of reference. What is accepted as a
significant aspect by me is not accepted by you, and vice-versa. I also
believe that we as astrologers attract clients who reflect or complement
our own charts, our own perception of the world.
Pete Stapleton comments: Dermond, you lost. You either made the
statement or agreed with the statement that now specific astro signature
could be found in the charts of homosexuals. I posted back that there
was a definite and certain astro signature ALWAYS present in the natal
charts of homosexuals. You challenge me to prove this astro signature
by posting five different sets of birth data and asking me to prove my
point. You even tried to make it a little more difficult due to my
"Tone" as you put it, by saying one or more of the five may or may not
be homosexual.
I have posted my reply twice now here on alt.astrology. As my reply
post shows - I was able to find a strong Venus/Uranus in four of the
five charts using the birth data you offered in your challenge - and the
fifth one did in fact have a Venus/Uranus influence - but one had to
work for it.
I have never said whatever you believe about homosexual charts isn't
true. I did say that your posted belief that no astro signature of
homosexuality doesn't exist wasn't true. Also, if you are going to say
there is an astro signature of something - you must be able to find it
every time you encounter that same something. I will again repeat my
statement - a Strong Venus / Uranus will always be found in the natal
chart of a homosexual.
As far as astrologers attracting those who are in some way drawn to them
- what's the point? This is well accepted astrology.
Regards, Pete
Pete Stapleton
D>From: der...@astrolog.demon.co.uk (Dermod Moore)
>In article: <95032207...@fatal.com> pete.st...@fatal.com (Pete Sta
>eton)
>writes:
>>(comment please)
D>I am quite prepared to accept that you can find Venus/Uranus contacts in ever
>chart that you come across of a homosexual person. In my practice it
is quite common, but not common enough for me to believe that it
signifies anything in particular about the sex of the partner.
Pete Stapleton comments: Dermond, if you can find a strong Venus/Uranus
relationship in every chart of a homosexual and you don't feel it
"signifies anything in particular about the sex of a partner" - then
what do you feel it signifies? Also, if you your use of the word
"Sex" means what kind of plumbing - then I wouldn't argue. But so
far we have been discussing sexual orientation - plumbing is only
relevant in that it is contra indicated.
Or to put it another way, have you ever cast a chart for a homosexual
that didn't have a strong Venus/Uranus? Assuming your results are the
same as my associates and myself - and you do find a strong Venus/Uranus
relationship always present in the charts of homosexuals - and there
isn't any other astro relationship always found in these same charts -
would you be willing to concede that a strong Venus/Uranus relationship
is the astro signature of a homosexual? If not, could you help me
understand why not?
D>We are both right about our clients. Can we agree to differ, and will
you accept that the so-called "obvious" astro signature for
homosexuality can not be written in stone?
>Regards Dermod
Pete Stapleton comments: Dermond, if you are going to have a science,
the rules of the scientific method require that you be able to prove the
basic facts underlying your scientific proofs by producing the same
results every time you conduct the same experiment. This is a wide
spread and popular scientific belief. However, you and I know it isn't
always true. The electro magnetic spectrum creates strange results on
occasion or there is a failure to recognize this truth found most of the
time within cast in stone scientific proof.
I think it was the Italian chemist Piccard who was confounded when he
was forced to face the fact that specific chemical experiments
dependant upon the solubility of water gave different results at
different times of the year. There are literally thousands and
thousands of such anomalies present within current scientific beliefs.
So for me to tell you that the natal birth chart of every homosexual you
will ever encounter for ever and ever will always have a strong
Venus/Uranus could not possible reflect the reality we live with on a
daily basis. However, I feel confident my present proof within this
area will make the finding of such an oddity difficult. So I doubt very
much you will be able to present such birth data here. Note, birth data
which doesn't reflect a birth time found on a birth certificate can only
result in a speculative chart and is of no interest when trying to
ascertain proofs to live by.
Regards, Pete
Pete Stapleton
>writes:
>> A: 1966 Jul 06 - 01.47 am - (cast for London Eng)
>> Venus 17 Taurus 05 (ecliptic longitude) Uranus22 leo 02 (eclg)
>> This is a wide square - but both the Venus and the Uranus are found
>> in Hub constellations which gives them added strength - and of
>> anything in Leo almost doubles it's power.
D>Yes, (stuff snipped) This person is a gay man,
D>> B: 1961 Sep 06 - 05:30 am - (cast for London Eng)
>> Venus +0.01 (ecliptic Latitude) Sun 19 leo 11 (0 degree eclat)
>> Uranus 3 leo 04 (ec long) Approx 1 degree away from a perfect
>> 15 degree aspect to the Sun also in Leo. So we have a Sun partile
>> parallel Venus in Ecliptic Latitude - conjunct Uranus by
>> constellation (both Sun and Uranus in Leo) and approx 16 degrees
>> away from Uranus by a 15 degree aspect.
D> (stuff snipped) This person is a lesbian woman,
D>> C: 1964 Feb 02 - 11:57 Pm - (cast for London Eng)
>> Venus 26 Aquarius (ec long) Uranus 14 Leo 49 (ec long) This gives
>> a constellational opposition between Venus in Aquarius and Uranus in
>> Leo. The Venus is within the astrological influence we say is much
>> like that of Uranus - which give some help to the wide opposition.
>> Not perfect, but there.
D>I would agree. I have concentrated on the Venus/Chiron opposing Uranus/Pluto
>sues with this client.
Pete Stapleton comments: Dermond, you don't say what the sexual
orientation is here - homosexual?
D>> Also, we get a little more power to this
>> wide Venus in Aquarius/Uranus in Leo when you consider the ecliptic
>> latitude of Venus is -1.02 while that of Uranus is +0.48 minutes.
>> So here we have a midpoint of the two that adds up to 0.07 minutes
>> of ecliptic latitude - 7 minutes away from a parallel of the Sun
>> which is always found at 0 degrees of ec latitude. Again wide, but
>> there. There is one more Venus/Uranus relationship that is worth
>> mentioning within this chart. Helio latitude Venus is found at
>> -1.42, while Helio latitude Uranus is found at +0.46. Add them
>> together and you find -0.56. And if you cut that in half to find
>> the mid point between Helio latitude Venus and Helio latitude
>> Uranus - you get -0.28 minutes of Helio Latitude for the midpoint
>> of Venus/Uranus. And of course a -0.28 minutes of Helio latitude
>> forms a precise contra parallel to the fixed star regulus - the
>> little king
>> found at +0.28 minutes of Helio latitude and of course at 5 degree
>> 06 minutes of the constellation of Leo in helio longitude. So here
>> again we can find a Venus/Uranus of some power.
D> (stuff snipped) >This person is a gay man,
D>> D: 1960 Dec 30 - 08.10 pm (cast for New York City, Nyo)
>> Venus 00 Aquarius 00 (ec long) Uranus 01 leo 02 (ec long)
>> Here we have a very powerful square between Venus and Uranus -
>> the effect given great power by Venus being partile 0 degrees.
>> And again we find Venus in the Constellation of Aquarius - an
>> astrological influence said to be similar to the astrological
>> influence of the planet Uranus. We get a little more power
>> from the Helio Venus found at 13 Aries 26 Helio Longitude - and
>> Uranus found at 29 Cancer 00 - helio long. This is within a
>> half a degree of a 105 degree aspect.
D>(stuff snipped) And, yes he is gay;
D>>
>> e: 1954 Nov 17 - 09.00 pm (cast for Sidney Australia
>> Venus 27 Lib 07 (ec long) Uranus 03 can 30 (ec long) - nothing
>> Venus -3.15 (ec lat ) Uranus +0.31 (ec lat ) - nothing
>> Venus - 21.12 Dec Uranus + 21.09 Dec
>> an almost partile contra parallel in Dec --- Bingo
D>I would count this as a definite Sun/Venus trine Uranus/Jupiter. Not a very p
>erful aspect, I grant you; but significant nevertheless. In my book.
This woman is heterosexual, a single mother.
Pete Stapleton comments: Dermond, is the lady gay or not? I don't
understand you equivocation. Could you explain what you mean by "in my
book." Does she live with a lesbian? Has she had lesbian experiences?
D>>
>> So now we are left with the problem of which one does and which one
>> doesn't - and the answer is that the question isn't truly relevant.
D>It is, as you made the claim that there is a definite astro signature which i
>"obvious". Or have you forgotten? That is why I weighed in so
vigorously against you and called your bluff.
Pete Stapleton comments: Dermond, I am confused as to how my claim that
there is a definite astro signature present in all homosexuals isn't
(Continued to next message)
Pete Stapleton
(Continued from previous message)
obvious? How did you call my bluff? You have supplied me with five
sets of birth data (without the source of the birth times), I did cast
all five charts - even though I couldn't use approx 40% of the astro
energies available when you have an accurate birth time. I posted the
results of my findings as shown above. All five charts show a
Venus/Uranus relationship above the norm. And as it turns out - you seem
to have indicated four agree with my statement - and the fifth, for
some reason you don't state, doesn't. Is this in some way a failure of
the obvious - if you believe that I will be happy to cover your bets at
the race track.
However, let's go back to what I have been saying about Venus/Uranus
from the start - that a Strong Venus/Uranus creates a reversal of the
"normal" sex role orientation. We are taught from birth that the male
is supposed to be in charge of the male/female pairing. He will be the
"man" and make the decisions protect the lady to give her security
to build a nest to have children. In other words, there are social
stereotyped male and female role models.
Now pay careful attention - a strong Venus/Uranus always brings about a
reversal in the role model by the Venus/Uranus native regardless of the
plumbing. Now pay careful attention again - you do not always find a
homosexual when you find a Venus/Uranus, but you will always find a
Venus/Uranus when you find a homosexual.
So again I will repeat my statement that the astro signature of the
homosexual is "obvious" to anyone who has an astrology that works with
the actual astrological influences found in the sky.
If "bluff" calling is what is going on here - then so far you haven't
been able to refute my proof of the existence of a definite astro
signature found in all homosexual charts. Please don't pick a nit and
then say that I haven't proved my point. The evidence is still on the
board - so please re read your original post where you make the
statement that you had never been able to find a homosexual astro
signature. Then, re read my post which says that such a signature is
"obvious." And I do believe the proof of the matter is shown above -
you posted birth data and I showed you the existence of a consistent
astro signature found in all homo sexual charts.
Regards, Pete
Dermod Moore
>
> Chris Morris (cmo...@pacsibm.org) wrote:
> : I understand that moon in cancer is sometimes considered as influencing
> : homosexuality or the tendency to be homosexual.
>
> I was born under a Cancer Moon, and I can tell you, I am not only very
> heterosexual,
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.....
> but I also look at homosexuality as a pathology... a not
> too politically-correct stand to take in light of today's (fashionable)
> view of homosexuality.
Sexuality as fashionable illness?
I pity your clients.
But then again, I suppose we should all keep in mind the pathology of the healer.
Michelle Lundy
: Absolutely true.. In the case of homosexuality that pain is not innate
: surround it, an issue often missed when one is looking at Mars/Uranus
: contacts. One might manifest that energy in a dozen ways I can think of,
: regardless of one's orientation, and one can cut out of the mold and not
: be gay. I'm not gay, and I've rebelled against dozens of taboos ;)
: Brandi
Brandi,
I whole-heartedly agree. In astrology, everything happens at an
astrologically appropriate time, i.e. under the appropriate aspects...
but we can _never_ say with utter certainty that such and such aspect
will produce such and such characteristic. In this sense we can only observe.
My question here is: What is the justification for an astrologer
attempting to describe the personality in this way?
Robin Coron
especially since one of my close co-workers is gay and
interested in astrology. I teach him what I can but I am
but a novice.
Pete - is the signature *any* aspect or "hard" aspects?
Would you look at Arron's chart, which has no Venus/Uranus
aspect (that I could see using Astrolog) and give me any
input as to why he doesn't fit the mold?
I ran (astrolog) charts on 5 "out" gays - all but one had
a Venus/Uranus combination:
Tom: Uranus opposing Venus
Mike: Uranus square Venus
Arron: no aspect - data: 4/17/70 Fredericksburg, VA
Joy: Uranus conjunct Venus
Keith: Uranus opposing Venus
Of the data I have on hetro's, 3 out of 10 people had aspects:
Sue: Uranus square Venus
Andy: Uranus sextile Venus
Steve: Uranus sextile Venus
Just wanted to share my impromptu research and ask the above
question of Pete.
Peace,
Robin
Pete Stapleton
(Continued from previous message)
Hey, I really appreciate your doing the work and posting the
results. This is how we are all going to learn some astrology here - but
doing charts and hashing over the results. Nice to meet you, Regards,
Pete
Pete Stapleton
R>From: rob...@sbdguest.corp.sun.com (Robin Coron)
>Very interesting thread! I have often wondered about this,
>especially since one of my close co-workers is gay and
>interested in astrology. I teach him what I can but I am
>but a novice.
>Would you look at Arron's chart, which has no Venus/Uranus
>aspect (that I could see using Astrolog) and give me any
>input as to why he doesn't fit the mold?
>a Venus/Uranus combination:
R>Tom: Uranus opposing Venus
>Mike: Uranus square Venus
>Arron: no aspect - data: 4/17/70 Fredericksburg, VA
>Joy: Uranus conjunct Venus
>Keith: Uranus opposing Venus
R>Sue: Uranus square Venus
>Andy: Uranus sextile Venus
>Steve: Uranus sextile Venus
R>Just wanted to share my impromptu research and ask the above
>question of Pete. R>Peace, >Robin
Pete Stapleton replies: Robin, first in answer to your question about
hard aspects, etc - any above average relationship of Venus/Uranus
counts. Which of course says nothing. I will expound. (which I do a
lot)
Over the years I have come to look at the ten planetary influences (Sun,
Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Neptune and PLuto) as ten little
people running around in side our heads. An analogy would be that Freud
postulated 3 personalities were contained within the human psyche (the
id, ego and the super ego). So one day I decided to carry Freuds idea
of three little people controlling the store inside our heads a little
further and say instead of three, there was a personality to match
each of the ten planets. There is some basis for this concept in meta
physical research. I understand that in the late 1960's a group located
in Tuscon, Arizona, working with the pendulum located sixteen different
entities within a personality.
So now when I look at a chart - I look to see which of the ten planetary
personalities is dominant. Normally the Sun wins hands down, since our
Sun personality controls at least 50% of who we are automatically -
which is why the location of the sun within the sidereal influences is
so important. However, you can have a Sun and Venus together - which
modifies the Sun's energy - and at the same time have Venus aspect or
parallel Pluto and the Venus person becomes the one you will deal with
when talking to this person. So when I look for a Venus/Uranus
combination within a chart - there isn't any set way to find it - you
must look to see how the ten planetary personalities are situated - who
is doing what and how and when. How strong is the modification by
another personality of the normal acting out of a planetary
personality. Does saturn inhibit the Venus - while Mars is modified
by pluto and the person can't get laid? Using this approach - if you
were to find that Venus in Arron's chart was located at zero degrees of
ecliptic latitude (which it is in Arrons chart if he is born at 6
am - then you would automatically have a strong Sun/Venus partile
parallel relationship - since our Sun defines zero degrees of ecliptic.
So now we have a strong Venus in Arrons chart - but neither the Sun or
Venus is in any way related to Uranus. So if I can say Arron was born
at 1 am - now we still find Venus at 0.01 of ecliptic latitude and very
strong because of the power of the sun - and at the same time we find
Uranus at 11 Vir 34 with a partile 30 degree relationship to the Moon in
Leo at 11 Leo 34. Now you have the Sun lighting up Venus - and the Moon
lighting up Uranus and there is your Venus/Uranus - you get there by
finding they are both powerful in their own right in the chart. And of
course no one here is going to go for that. A 30 degree aspect to the
moon even if it's partile isn't going to rock the boat too much.
However, if you consider that the Moon was also precisely 0.28 minutes
of Ecliptic latitude at the same time - and 0.28 minutes of latitude if
the latitude of the fixed star Regulus - the very powerful sun like
energy that give the constellation of Leo (Aug 17 - Sep 17) it's power -
then you have a very powerful Moon 30 degree Uranus - and really
booting the Uranus energy up to the level of the Sun/Venus match.
So you in a sense you have to kind of play it by ear when you
are looking for the strong Venus/Uranus signature if it doesn't pop out
at you. So far I have always been able to find it, one way or another.
Which is why I think so many here are fighting my statement that a
strong Venus/Uranus relationship will always be found in the chart of a
homosexual - most don't use all of the astrological systems are found
in the sky that reflect astrological influences - and so do charts that
just don't show all the possibilities extant.
So I am also having trouble with Arron's chart. I can cast a dozen
charts which will give me a solid Venus/Uranus as shown above - but this
is pure speculation and unacceptable. I would appreciate your trying to
obtain Arron's birth time from his birth certificate so we can see if
the angulars or altitudes resolve the problem. Maybe Arron will prove to
be my first exception to the rule - but we will never know if we
cannot get the birth certificate birth time.
(Continued to next message)
Dermod Moore
> Pete Stapleton comments: Dermond, you lost.
I know my name is unusual, but you keep on spelling it wrongly.
Please make the effort.
My news mailer seems to be acting up; this thread is getting far
too unwieldy, and messages appear to be getting duplicated. I am posting a
reply to your latest contributions in a new thread under the title:
Astrology a science?
Samuel.E.Bonderoff
has been bandied around a lot as being the so-called "classical"
indicator of homosexuality. The thing is, the single tightest major
aspect in my own natal chart is a square between, you guessed it, Mars
and Uranus, in Aquarius and Scorpio, repsectively. Uranus is
retrograde. I've always thought of mysefl as strictly
heterosexual...am I missing something here? Or does my chart help to
disprove the notion that there is one powerful astrological indicator
of homosexuality?
SBliss8428
thinking on this over the years is to look at the pathology of
heterosexism. Certainly, (and this is sarcasm, friends) there is no
heterosexual pathology, is there.
S.
Margaret Young
: Very interesting thread! I have often wondered about this,
: especially since one of my close co-workers is gay and
: interested in astrology. I teach him what I can but I am
: but a novice.
Not any kind of expert astrologer here, but while reading this
thread I began to wonder if the reason for the different
markers, or lack of markers, is simply that there is more
than one "cause" of homosexuality. Therefore, it could
be signified by different aspects.
margaret
: Pete - is the signature *any* aspect or "hard" aspects?
JasonSzabo
>Date: 29 Mar 1995 09:44:14 GMT
>Message-ID: <3lba5e$5...@kadath.zeitgeist.net>
>
>Robin Coron (rob...@sbdguest.corp.sun.com) wrote:
>: Very interesting thread! I have often wondered about
>this,
>: especially since one of my close co-workers is gay and
>: interested in astrology. I teach him what I can but I am
>: but a novice.
>
>Not any kind of expert astrologer here, but while reading
>this
>thread I began to wonder if the reason for the different
>markers, or lack of markers, is simply that there is more
>than one "cause" of homosexuality. Therefore, it could
>be signified by different aspects.
>
>margaret
Indeed, I think Margaret has hit the nail on the head... to say that one
particular signature indicates homosexuality is to assume that there is
only one "type" of homosexuality when, in fact, this is not true. I think
that the Venus/Uranus relationship that Pete spoke of may help to explain
the homosexual tendencies of certain individuals, but it is no gay/lesbian
signature and nor should we think that this is the ONLY influence in a
chart that can indicate homosexuality. This thread became very personal to
me as soon as Pete declared the homosexual "signature", as I have a
powerful Venus/Uranus conjunction in my chart. Am I homosexual? No.
Amusingly enough, if I WERE a homosexual I would know the reasons for that
homosexuality... and those reasons would differ from the guy with
afflicted Moon in Cancer... and they would also differ from the guy whose
mother underwent a large amount of stress during pregnancy... and it would
differ from the guy whose chart shows an irrational phobia of women in
general thus neccessitating homosexuality. Everybody has their own story,
and to attempt to classify a certain "signiture" of homosexuality is
futile simply because either 1) the signiture would only show
homosexuality due to ONE reason, or 2) you would have to develop a list of
indicators each slightly different and once the list became large enough
it could be applied to anyone rendering it worthless.
However... to say that such-and-such an influence with certain planets and
certain signs would indicate someone whose kinkiness drives them to have
sex with anyone is very reasonable. To say that such-and-such an
influence with certain planets in certain signs shows a tendency for men
to act feminine (sometimes extending this role to sex) and women to act
masculine (as above) is not unreasonable either. It would be perfectly
reasonable to look at a man's/woman's chart and see a general fear or
disgust for the opposite sex and conclude homosexuality. Just as it is not
unreasonable to look at the chart of the mother during pregnancy (looking
for outside stress exerted on her), and so on and so forth.
Input is very welcome...
-- Jason T. Szabo
*There are things known and things unknown, and between them is Robert
Hand... in a dress.* -- Jason Szabo, Hal Wrigley, and Jim Morrison