Chiron Synastry /Transit Aspects ????
Ana
Hi,
Can anyone recommend any good books or sources on net, regarding
synastry/transit aspects to Chiron? Or does anyone have any information
as to how they should be interpreted. For example. Person A's chiron
in aspect to Person B's Sun or Venus, etc.. Should Chiron be considered
as a personal planet??,a benefic/malefic(...for lack of better words)???,
Should a conjunction be interpreted as balancing or stressful??? What
about transits to a natal chiron? Good, Bad, Ugly ??????
Any info. would be appreciated. Thanks in advance
Ana
Ava Rosenblum
I have been wondering this myself. I have a hunch when chiron is
positively aspected to and conjunct with another's personal planets
that the person with the chiron can be a healing force in the other's
lives. And vice versa, if the other has chiron positively aspected and
conjunct to the first person's personal planets.
a.r.
Edmond Wollmann
Yes, and when it conjuncts planets in someones chart persons appear to
act as helpers of the "transition"- Chiron is the planet(oid) of
transition-the transition from the orientation that physical reality
exists outside the indiviudual and "affects" it which stems from the
belief in "attack" (Saturn) to the recognition in the creation of
reality through choices both conscious and unconscious as definitions
(Uranus) Chiron is the wounded (Saturn) healer (Uranus) that acts as
this bridge. When issues are unresolved psychologically then the
individual can experience dis-ease a state of being out of integrity
that ALLOWS the organisms (or breakdown) as the EFFECT of the belief in
this externalism and "bombardment" from the fear of a loss of control
rather than a centering and recognition of HOW these developmental
issues may be resolved. Chiron can also reflect where the breakdown HAS
occurred and needs perspective transition. I hope this is of service in
some way.
Ed
---
"Because beliefs form reality-the structure of experience-any change in
beliefs altering that structure initiates change to some extent, of
course. The status quo which served a certain purpose is gone, new
elements are introduced, another creative process begins. Because your
private beliefs are shared with others, because there IS interaction,
then any determined change of direction on your part is felt by others,
and they will react in their own fashion." Jane Roberts as "Seth" The
Nature of Personal Reality, page 90, 1974.
--
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
© 1996 Astrological Consulting/Altair Publications
http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
PO Box 221000 San Diego, CA. 92192-1000
(619)453-2342 e-mail woll...@mail.sdsu.edu
Ava Rosenblum
So, if we follow the logic of our previous posts, and i have mercury
conjunct someone else's chiron, can I then infer that by taking in this
other person's messages, i will be healed and transitioned into a higher
level of consciousness?
I'm wondering something else: Since chiron's energy is about lessons we
learn and wisdom attained via wounds (that's my take on it anyway), is it
possible it works in reverse? That is, if my mercury conjuncts someone
else's chiron, might my communication heal this other person?
I guess I'm confused on who gets healed with chiron conjunctions in chart
overlays: Does the person with the chiron get healed? or does the person
with the chiron act as the healing force to the other?
ava
p...@ix.netcom.com
On Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:08:54 -0800, Ana <ana....@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
I'm not sure Chrion, being such a maverick, fits so easily into
Good/Bad categories. And as far as a conjunction being balancing or
stressful, I suspect it would depend on the other planet. Chiron in
mythology was known as the Wounded Healer, a centaur, and Chiron
is always spoken of as catalyst, a key, a door opener, a bridge, a
turning point, and as a link between the inner and outer planets. So
in general, I consider it benefic but also with a unique twist. I've
got Chiron rising, close to my Ascendant, so I probably identify with
it or consider it normal operating procedure for me. Others may not.
Anyway, there are quite a few books on Chiron out already, so you can
make up your own mind after you've seen the various reactions
astrologers have had to it since its discovery in 1977. Of the three
books I have on Chrion, the one that deals the most with transits and
synastry is
"Midpoint Keys to Chiron" by Chris Brooks, AFA, 1992
The other books are:
"Asteroid Goddesses" by Demetra George, ACS, 1986
"Chiron: Rainbow Bridge Between the Inner and Outer Planets" by
Barbara Hand Clow, Llewellyn, 1992
"The Continuing Discovery of Chiron" by Erminie Lantero, Samuel
Weiser Inc, 1983
"Essence and Application: A View from Chiron" by Zane B. Stein,
CAO Times, 1988
"Interpreting Chiron" by Zane B. Stein, ASC, 1983
:Chiron: The New Planet in Your Horoscope" by Richard Nolle,
AFA, 1983
Plus a couple of others I only have only partial info on:
"Chiron" by Maritha Pottenger, ACS
"Chrion and the Healing Journey" by Melanie Reinhart, Penguin
I'm sure there are others, more recent, plus articles in Astrology
magazines and sections on Chiron in general texts.
Zane B. Stein also has his own web page on the internet devoted to
Chiron, with lots of links and interesting stuff. It's address is:
http://www.omna.com/yes/zanestein/
Hope that helps, Ana.
Pete
Edmond Wollmann
Ava Rosenblum wrote:
The one who's consciousness and vibration is more towards the Uranian
(healer) perspective heals the wounds of the wounded (the Saturnian)-it
is a vibrational and integrity disctinction-simple mechanics. How will
you know? Well if anyone has paid any attention to my posts I have
answered it many times.
Best to you,
Ed
--
Where you find your servant-heres your master.
Ana
It certainly does Pete! Thanks a bunch :-)
Rgds
Ana
Kevin Burk
Ava,
I'm replying both to your question/comments, and to some other comments
that popped up in this thread...
I'm certainly not alone in having given a great deal of thought to what
Chiron represents and to how it functions in the chart. I think that
we're very close to the "true" Chiron when healing and spirituality
issues are considered, but there's still a great deal we don't yet
understand about Chiron.
In natal astrology, we can't really begin to understand the nature of a
planet, and how to master it's lessons rather than having to respond and
react to them, until we've experienced one complete cycle (a return) of
that planet - and whatever planet is next in sequence to complete a
cycle in our charts becomes the most important planetary cycle for us.
(In other words, we can't start to work with Saturn with a full personal
understanding of Saturn until after the Saturn Return.) I think that
this also applies on the mundane level.
Additionally, on the mundane level, we don't start to truly respond to
the energy of a planet until it's been "discovered". (The Ancients knew
about Uranus long before 1781 - if you had VERY good eyesight (before
electric lights made so much of the night sky invisible) Uranus was (and
I suppose, still is) visible to the naked eye. But we didn't start to
work with it until it was "officially" discovered in 1781.) Chiron was
discovered in 1977, and has an estimated orbit of about 51-52 years. We
haven't yet experienced a complete cycle of Chiron - not on a mundane
level, and not on a personal level, either. The first true Chiron
returns won't happen until about 2028.
On the mundane level, we're just getting the hang of Uranus - we're in
the middle of the 3rd Uranus cycle since it's discovery. I don't
remember the date of Neptune's discovery, but if we haven't yet
completed the 1st Neptune cycle since its discovery, we're pretty close
to it. We're 100 years away from the first Pluto cycle...so the next
most important Planet to understand is Chiron - and this is why Chiron
seems to be so interesting and so significant to so many of us now.
Terry Lamb suggested (and it makes a great deal of sense to me) that
Chiron is to the Outer Planets what Mercury is to the Inner Planets.
Chiron is a messenger, and Chiron is more about the TIMING of the
initiations and lessons of the Outer Planets than it is about being an
initiation. Terry suggested that what Chiron does by transit is to
bring in the light, to start to open us up to be able to receive the
higher lessons of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. This light energy is very
focused, and very strong, and very very persistant; when the light
encounters any blocks in our energy fields (physical body, mental body,
emotional body, chakras, etc) it creates a great deal of pressure which
can become quite uncomfortable, and which can also result in a healing
crisis.
In synastry, I think Chiron works the same way - if someone's Chiron
contacts one of your personal planets, they may seem to increase the
light energy in that area and help to open you up to both healing any
issues related with that planet, and to connecting with a higher
spiritual vibration for that planet. On the flip side, when your
Mercury, for example, contacts another person's Chiron, the way that you
think, reason and communicate will in some way resonate with their own
Chiron woundedness, making them more aware of their natal Chiron issues,
and ultimately giving them an opportunity to heal themselves, as well.
It's always a two-way street with Synastry.
Peace,
Kevin
--
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Astrological Horoscopes & Forecasts
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Mary Ellen Nagle
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.961203...@garcia.efn.org>,
Ava Rosenblum <a...@efn.org> wrote:
>So, if we follow the logic of our previous posts, and i have mercury
>conjunct someone else's chiron, can I then infer that by taking in this
>other person's messages, i will be healed and transitioned into a higher
>level of consciousness?
>
>I'm wondering something else: Since chiron's energy is about lessons we
>learn and wisdom attained via wounds (that's my take on it anyway), is it
>possible it works in reverse? That is, if my mercury conjuncts someone
>else's chiron, might my communication heal this other person?
>
>I guess I'm confused on who gets healed with chiron conjunctions in chart
>overlays: Does the person with the chiron get healed? or does the person
>with the chiron act as the healing force to the other?
>
>ava
>
EXCELLENT QUESTION! What do people think?
Here's how I see it:
If somebody's "X" is aspecting my "Y", it is too simplistic to say that their
"X" is doing something to my "Y" and vice versa. Rather, we are BOTH
experiencing the synergistic fusion of "X" and "Y".
In terms of the above example: synastric contacts between one person's Chiron
& another's Mercury evokes the potential of Healing Communication for BOTH
parties in the course of their interaction with each other. We cannot say
that one person will be doing all the communicating while the other does all
the healing.
I have found that anytime two planets come together, it opens up a TWO-WAY
channel of interchange between the two energies.
This is not to say that you cannot distinguish Mercury conjunct Chiron, for
example, from Chiron conjunct Mercury.
I merely suggest that what's really happening is a fusion of the two energies,
such that both planets partake of each other and are changed into something
different in the process. As in "the whole is greater than the sum of its
parts".
So, even though you can say that one person's Mercury is being "Chironized"
while the other's Chiron is getting "Mercurialized", the end result is that
both people bring out the experience of Chiron-Mercury in each other. In
practice, this means that whatever you can say about the merging of Chiron &
Mercury applies to both people.
Any distinctions in how it manifests for the two people would be in terms of
the particulars of their individual house placements & rulerships, etc. That
is to say, the person whose Mercury is aspected would experience a
Chironization of the affairs of whichever Houses have Virgo & Gemini on the
cusps...etc.
I'm just thinking out loud, here, so I hope this makes some kind of sense...
- Mary Ellen
p...@ix.netcom.com
On 4 Dec 1996 20:29:54 GMT, mna...@law.harvard.edu (Mary Ellen Nagle)
wrote:
Interesting that Chiron and Mercury are used as an example, and that
my example seems to bear out many of the points you made, Mary Ellen.
Just recently a friend with Chiron at 17 Aqu 47' 14" got involved with
a man she'd known for many years (occasional contacts through work).
His Mercury is at 17 Aqu 46'26", so the two are less than one minute
apart.
For several months it seemed like the answer to her dreams, and they
made all kinds of plans. But suddenly he announced he was leaving,
that he would only "wound her once", and he left.
She was devastated, flabbergasted. And of the two, it seemed she felt
the most sorely wounded. Certainly, she allowed herself to feel the
emotions involved far more deeply. Since it was her Chiron, not his,
involved in the conjunction, I suppose she fit the "wounded healer"
archetype more.
And perhaps, because it was his Mercury, he was able to
intellectualize his actions and thus shield himself more from the
potential pain of separation.
I mentioned to her that at least now she knew it was possible to fall
that deeply in love, to feel such passion and commitment, whereas
heretofore, she'd never allowed that to happen. She said that it was
the first indication she'd had that there was anything positive to see
in the situation.
His Neptune is within a degree of her Ascendant, so he may have been
lost in the fantasy of it all, deceiving her and himself. But it may
be that he left because it triggered some flashbacks to his
dysfunctional childhood, so it seems that the healing did go both
ways. At the least, he had to face some ghosts coming up suddenly
from his past. Yes, he ran from them, but perhaps the entire incident
will give him much food for thought. Perhaps over time.
I think she had slowly, over the years, built up a fascination for
this man....like a ticking time bomb in a way. She's very intuitive
and has lots of empathy. He seemed stiff, always striving to be in
control, but she sensed a very vulnerable side that he kept hidden,
which turned out to have good reason, based on his childhood.
I'm leery about going into more detail, but it seemed so pertinent to
the discussion, that I couldn't resist mentioning a few relevant
points.
It did seemed like a lot of "healing" and "communication" happened
on both sides. They both seemed energized by the relationship while
it lasted, and spent a lot of time talking, sharing things. And they
both broke out of old habits, acted in new ways, explored new
territory in themselves and in a relationship.
Both were in previous marriages that were very one-sided and
unsatisfying, more to work out some karma, than for emotional
satisfaction or joy. So both had a great deal of need and lessons to
learn.
It would be interesting to see how different things might have gone,
had it been his Venus, say, or Mars or Jupiter, rather than Mercury
that closely conjunct her Chiron. Or if the Chiron had been his.
It's also interesting how the house placements may have affected
things. His Mercury is in his 2nd house (ruled by Uranus in the 6th),
her Chiron is in her fourth (ruled by Saturn in the 3rd). His focus
is mostly financial security, her's is in the home, caring for her two
young daughters.
I'm not sure that his 2nd house activities were "Chironized" by her,
perhaps that's what he was afraid of, of losing his financial security
by taking on new burdens -- another reason for suddenly (Uranus)
ending the relationship out of the blue.
Mercury and Uranus actually disposit each other in his case, which
would involve the 6th house, service/work, feeling talented/useful.
He certainly "Mercurized" her 4th house, affected her home life.
Going the other way is pretty much moot since no one seems to agree on
what signs Chrion might rule yet.
Anyway, I hope this helped further the discussion. It certainly
seemed to corroborate many of the points you made, Mary Ellen.
It's fascinating discovering Chiron and how it interacts with other
points in the chart.
Oh, I may as well throw out a new question to add to the discussion.
I have a general rule of thumb that I use (not sure where I got it
from actually), which is that the more aspects the Sun has to all the
various planets, the more conscious or self-actualized the person is
or potentially can be.
Does this fit in with anyone else's experience?
Apropos to the discussion at hand, would the person who's Chrion or
Mercury has the closest aspect to the Sun be the one who gets the most
out of the conjunction and the consequent interactions?
In the example I mentioned her Sun is at 18 Lib 44, so it would be a
close trine to Chrion. His is at 29 Cap 09, so it's 38' from a
Vigintile 18 degree aspect (1/20th of 360 degrees), a decidedly less
significant aspect. (I'm not even sure what it means! Does anyone
know? It could also be called a Semi-Decile or Semi-Semi-Quintile.)
Going just by that, it would seem that she will gain the most from
their interaction, though it's hard to tell yet.
Anyway, thanks for your post, Mary Ellen.
Pete
Kevin Burk
Mary Ellen Nagle wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.961203...@garcia.efn.org>,
> Ava Rosenblum <a...@efn.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >I guess I'm confused on who gets healed with chiron conjunctions in chart
> >overlays: Does the person with the chiron get healed? or does the person
> >with the chiron act as the healing force to the other?
> >
> >ava
> >
>
> EXCELLENT QUESTION! What do people think?
>
> Here's how I see it:
>
> If somebody's "X" is aspecting my "Y", it is too simplistic to say that their
> "X" is doing something to my "Y" and vice versa. Rather, we are BOTH
> experiencing the synergistic fusion of "X" and "Y".
>
> In terms of the above example: synastric contacts between one person's Chiron
> & another's Mercury evokes the potential of Healing Communication for BOTH
> parties in the course of their interaction with each other. We cannot say
> that one person will be doing all the communicating while the other does all
> the healing.
>
> I have found that anytime two planets come together, it opens up a TWO-WAY
> channel of interchange between the two energies.
>
> This is not to say that you cannot distinguish Mercury conjunct Chiron, for
> example, from Chiron conjunct Mercury.
>
<<SNIP>>
Mary Ellen,
I agree with you that a two-way channel results from inter-chart
contacts; however, I don't agree that the experience always "merges" in
quite the way that you suggest (although as I re-read and edit this
post, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm going to make that significant of a
distinction after all...). In the Chiron/Mercury example, the Mercury
person is going to experience the interchange on a much more personal
and direct level than the Chiron person will.
Chiron is effectively an outer planet, so when someone's Chiron aspects
another person's personal planet(s) it is a Karmic aspect, not an
inter-personal one. When the Mercury person communicates with the
Chiron person, they will experience a surge of Chiron energy, a chance
to become aware of and potentially heal any wounds that they have with
respect to their Mercury (i.e., logic, thinking, communication)
functions.
The Chiron person, on the other hand, may find that their Chiron is
triggered by talking with the other person - talking with the Mercury
person will make them more aware of, will perhaps help them to get in
touch with their natal Chiron. In other words, although the Mercury
person may experience a healing in their communication, the Chiron
person mainly becomes more aware of their own personal woundedness (or
their own spirituality, depending on how successfully they have worked
with Chiron to this point).
I think that the most that the Mercury person would accomplish (barring
other aspects, of course) is to help the Chiron person to gain a better
intellectual understanding of their woundedness, and perhaps help them
to be able to talk about it more.
It's not much of a distinction, I know, but it seems to me to be a very
important one.
Edmond Wollmann
AdZe MiXXe wrote:
> >> In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.961203...@garcia.efn.org>,
> >> Ava Rosenblum <a...@efn.org> wrote:
> ><SNIP>
> >> >I guess I'm confused on who gets healed with chiron conjunctions in chart
> >> >overlays: Does the person with the chiron get healed? or does the person
> >> >with the chiron act as the healing force to the other?
> >> >ava
> I've experienced it as a two way street with varing trafic levels on both
> sides. In my experience Chiron heals others and in so doing heals self.
> Planets meeting Chiron meet mentor and both student and teacher learn
> from each other.
I would just like to say that healing is the bringing together of
negative into positive or unifying energy. Can a murderer heal a mystic?
Or would it be more likely to be the other way around? Now perhaps the
mystic is healed by the healing action, but it is still the higher
vibration doing the healing. Each planet can have a different expression
depending on the awareness of the individual. Saturn can be ruthless or
strategically effective for good cause, and Chiron can be the healer
(positive) and the wounded (negative)-to become the healer is the POINT
of being wounded. Perhaps? It is in my 6th in Aquarius trine Mercury in
Gemini in 11.
Ed
> AdZe MiXXe
> http;//www.adze.com/
> Current Cosmic Conditions
> FREE Daily horoscopes include Chiron
> FREE PC windows moonphase screensaver and oracle
Jeanne Colin
p...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Oh, I may as well throw out a new question to add to the discussion.
>I have a general rule of thumb that I use (not sure where I got it
>from actually), which is that the more aspects the Sun has to all the
>various planets, the more conscious or self-actualized the person is
>or potentially can be.
>Does this fit in with anyone else's experience?
yes, with an aside. my sun is part of a fixed grand cross, and has
ameliorating aspects to (let me check) everything but venus and
mercury, i see most of my issues clearly. the downside of this is that
i can't separate my issues, can't figure out why something is
happening to me, why i have these personality traits, why i have all
these obstacles. and when i meditate and study deeply, i just find
many other threads coming in to tangle up the reasons behind my
problems. so even tho i'm more aware (mostly by others' admissions,
not my own assessment) than other people, it doesn't help me at all
because i get mired more easily.
as far as the synastry of chiron goes (now that we're on another
thread), i must say that my chiron is conjunct my husband's ascendant,
and his chiron is conjunct my mars, and our relationship, while not as
karmic (read: unsatisfying) as my previous relationships, has more of
duty and less than joy in it. the whole chart has to be looked at of
course...
AdZe MiXXe
>> In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.961203...@garcia.efn.org>,
>> Ava Rosenblum <a...@efn.org> wrote:
>>
><SNIP>
>
>> >
>> >I guess I'm confused on who gets healed with chiron conjunctions in chart
>> >overlays: Does the person with the chiron get healed? or does the person
>> >with the chiron act as the healing force to the other?
>> >
>> >ava
I've experienced it as a two way street with varing trafic levels on both
sides. In my experience Chiron heals others and in so doing heals self.
Planets meeting Chiron meet mentor and both student and teacher learn
from each other.
AdZe MiXXe
Kevin Burk
Jeanne Colin wrote:
>
> yes, with an aside. my sun is part of a fixed grand cross, and has
> ameliorating aspects to (let me check) everything but venus and
> mercury, i see most of my issues clearly. the downside of this is that
> i can't separate my issues, can't figure out why something is
> happening to me, why i have these personality traits, why i have all
> these obstacles. and when i meditate and study deeply, i just find
> many other threads coming in to tangle up the reasons behind my
> problems. so even tho i'm more aware (mostly by others' admissions,
> not my own assessment) than other people, it doesn't help me at all
> because i get mired more easily.
>
Jeanne,
The fixed cross is about a crisis in self-worth - this may help to
explain why when your natal cross is activated, you "can't figure why
something is happening to you". The core issues surrounding the fixed
signs have to do with self-esteem and self-validation. If you've never
approached your issues from this perspective, you might want to give it
a try.
(And for the record, the Cardinal Cross is a crisis in Identity, and the
Mutable Cross is a crisis in Completion and Healing. The Cardinal Cross
asks "Who am I?" the Fixed Cross asks "What am I worth?" and the Mutable
Cross asks "How can I Complete This?" (or, more often "How can I hold
things together long enough for me to complete this?").)
Florence Mitchell
I'm a bit late in my contribution to this thread, but I have some
comments from my own experience that I might as well throw in. My
husband and I both have fairly prominent Chiron placements in our
charts (his closely opposing his Sun, mine in the 1st house, in both
cases involved in several other close aspects). His Chiron-Sun
opposition lies across my Ascendant-Descendant axis (3 degree orb),
and my Chiron exactly opposes his close Mars-Pluto conjunction, as
well as making several other tight aspects. It seems to play a very
active role in our synastry.
I do find the wounded healer metaphor useful. Both of us are, in a
sense, healers by profession. Both of us carried wounds (but really,
who doesn't? :-) ) - his far deeper than mine. Our love for each
other has surely had a healing effect. (He even credits me with
physical healing, because his happiness soon after he met me
eliminated a stress-related rash, and because a few good massages did
wonders for his back. But I'll just let him think it was magic - he's
a Leo, I can't change his mind anyway. :-) )
So I for one do believe Chiron is important in synastry, based upon my
own experience of how important the theme of healing has been in this
relationship. It is possible that other factors in our charts cover
this same territory, but I am not aware of them.
Florence