The weirdest things you've ever seen with astrology?
Apollia
Just curious - what are some of the weirdest things you've ever
seen with astrology?
What was the most startling coincidence you've ever seen -
what really floored you?
Feel free to give as many different examples as you like.
----
Apollia
(Formerly known as Blahhh, but I'm getting tired of having so many
different aliases on the internet... :-) )
My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
My birth data:
-qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
Pedantus
> Hi folks.
>
> Just curious - what are some of the weirdest things you've ever
> seen with astrology?
>
> What was the most startling coincidence you've ever seen -
> what really floored you?
>
> Feel free to give as many different examples as you like.
>
http://pedantus.free.fr/Kenji_CityEscape_01b.gif
Apollia
> Apollia wrote:
> > Hi folks.
> >
> > Just curious - what are some of the weirdest things you've ever
> > seen with astrology?
> >
> > What was the most startling coincidence you've ever seen -
> > what really floored you?
> >
> > Feel free to give as many different examples as you like.
> >
>
> http://pedantus.free.fr/Kenji_CityEscape_01b.gif
Hmm... interesting.
The chart of Kenji Toyooka. Here's a copy-and-pasteable
Astrolog 5.40 command line:
-qa August 10 1976 1:42 EDT 75:42W 45:25N
(Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada).
The first thing I notice is the moon in the distance, matching the
position of the moon in the chart.
Then there's some kind of weird abstract keychain thing, with various
different things on the ends of the keys.
The ends of the keys each seem to be pointing at the majority of the
astrological planets in the chart, which mostly line the bottom half
of the chart, except for the moon and Jupiter.
And hands seem to be a predominant theme - hands attached to almost
every key. Maybe that goes with Gemini rising (since Gemini is
associated with hands).
Then there's an H-like shape with a line roughly bisecting it, at the
end of the key pointing to Uranus, and it rather resembles the glyph
for Uranus.
Then that head with an eye ("I") in the forehead is located right
around where his sun in Leo (ego), Venus and Mercury are (with
Mars fairly close too) - all of his inner/personal astrological
planets (except for his moon, which opposes his sun).
Oh, and the phase of the moon in the illustration matches the
phase of the moon in his chart - since he was born with roughly
a full moon.
I looked up "keys" in "The Rulership Book" by Rex E. Bills.
My feeling was keys could be associated with Saturn - I guess because
the concept of something being locked and sealed rather reminds me
of Saturn.
But, the book gives Mercury and Uranus as being associated with keys.
(But, unfortunately, like every other entry in the book, there's no
source or stated rationale for these associations).
I guess that might fit in with the Gemini again, like the hands. Plus,
it's weird and abstract enough to qualify as Uranian. (Though it looks
to me like he doesn't have any really incredibly exact Uranus
aspects).
Well... that's all I notice that seems to match the chart. Is there
more? Pretty nifty... :-)
I never said anything before, but, I've found your "horoscopic
expressionism" stuff very interesting, for many years now.
How did you first notice that "horoscopic expressionism" seems
to work so well? :-)
Pedantus
My 11 yr old stepson was convinced he had his first "real piece of art."
Sneeze:
http://pedantus.free.fr/sneeze_01b.gif
As they say, the soul leaves the body when you sneeze...:)
I said if this drawing really is an expression of you birth chart,
then *while* your were drawing it your were obsessing about a desire...a
larger bicycle what it looks like.
"Wow, geesh...how da'heck'd ya do that?".....:)
Then, weeks later, I had finally decided on the best way to get one
shot at an expressive experiment. Can't be but one first time, so I
didn't just try anything. I decided to ask my 8yr old daughter to draw
for me, "a map of you personal island kingdom.":
http://pedantus.free.fr/Horoscopic_Expressionism_01/
That xmas I gave my nephew a book on how to draw cartoon characters,
my brother worked with him on it for awhile decided to make me look like
the doomed Wylie Coyote because he is (was) a very severe critic of my
disappointing interests and a hyper-rational skeptic:
http://pedantus.free.fr/Horoscopic_Expressionism_03_1a.gif
If you notice, both my brother and this fella kenji project Jupiter
near the Asc. as a computer ( a box-shaped volume, lots of content--you
get the idea).
Gestalt and emergence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Emergence.jpg
Once you let go of the fear of seeing Madonnas on every slice of
burnt toast, you begin to realize that a drawing is a drawing, whether
intended as a representation of a birth chart or a free associating
abstract, the idea of self portrait and Self expression are never from
from the act. Astrology is an unconsciously construed Self portrait of
the Human being...in the image of "God" of course...:)
>
> ----
>
> Apollia
> (Formerly known as Blahhh, but I'm getting tired of having so many
> different aliases on the internet... :-) )
>
> My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> My birth data:
> -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
>
Rog
Apollia
>Apollia wrote:
[...]
>> I never said anything before, but, I've found your "horoscopic
>> expressionism" stuff very interesting, for many years now.
>>
>> How did you first notice that "horoscopic expressionism" seems
>> to work so well? :-)
>
>
> My 11 yr old stepson was convinced he had his first "real piece of art."
>Sneeze:
>http://pedantus.free.fr/sneeze_01b.gif
>
> As they say, the soul leaves the body when you sneeze...:)
Cute... :-)
Yes, I guess I can see how those planets map to the drawing.
There's the Jupiter portion of the drawing resembling the )_ shape of
the glyph; the notorious Mars "pointy thing"; the Saturn protuberance
sort of resembling the Saturn glyph; some Venusian concavities; an
especially round spot which goes with the moon; and something that
looks exactly like the sun's glyph, located not _too_ far from the
position of the sun in the chart.
And I guess the general directions of, and shapes formed by, the
aspect lines sort of match the shape of the drawing.
> I said if this drawing really is an expression of you birth chart,
>then *while* your were drawing it your were obsessing about a desire...a
>larger bicycle what it looks like.
> "Wow, geesh...how da'heck'd ya do that?".....:)
Interesting. Admittedly, sometimes I can't quite follow your
reasoning. I do, however, think it's my fault - that I just can't
keep up. :-)
> Then, weeks later, I had finally decided on the best way to get one
>shot at an expressive experiment. Can't be but one first time, so I
>didn't just try anything. I decided to ask my 8yr old daughter to draw
>for me, "a map of you personal island kingdom.":
>
>http://pedantus.free.fr/Horoscopic_Expressionism_01/
Very neat... :-) I assume she had probably never seen her own
astrological chart in the past?
> That xmas I gave my nephew a book on how to draw cartoon characters,
>my brother worked with him on it for awhile decided to make me look like
>the doomed Wylie Coyote because he is (was) a very severe critic of my
>disappointing interests and a hyper-rational skeptic:
>
>http://pedantus.free.fr/Horoscopic_Expressionism_03_1a.gif
Very impressive drawing, looks just like the "real" Wylie. And, yes,
I can definitely see those sun and moon glyph-shaped things in there.
:-)
So... he _was_ a severe critic, eh? Did he finally change his mind?
:-)
> If you notice, both my brother and this fella kenji project Jupiter
>near the Asc. as a computer ( a box-shaped volume, lots of content--you
>get the idea).
Aha! I did think of that, actually, but, I hesitated to mention it...
because I thought, "nah, computers are high-tech gizmos that would go
with Uranus".
But associating them with Jupiter definitely makes sense in a lot of
ways. They're wonderful tools for expanding your horizons, learning
new things, coming into contact with "foreign" cultures and ideas,
etc., etc. Especially if they're connected to the internet.
> Gestalt and emergence:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Emergence.jpg
Fortunately the title of that picture helped me figure out what it
was... :-)
I'm sometimes a bit slow at discerning patterns in, particularly,
confusing visual things. I think I'm more of a verbal type of person.
(Though I also have found I have more talent than I thought I did with
music).
> Once you let go of the fear of seeing Madonnas on every slice of
>burnt toast,
:-)
>you begin to realize that a drawing is a drawing, whether
>intended as a representation of a birth chart or a free associating
>abstract, the idea of self portrait and Self expression are never from
>from the act. Astrology is an unconsciously construed Self portrait of
>the Human being...in the image of "God" of course...:)
Fascinating... :-) I wonder why this is so... why would humans
develop in such a way as to have some kind of drive to metaphorically
express what's in their astrological chart... not only in visual art,
but also in other ways.
And how do they do it when likely, in many cases, they've never even
seen their own natal chart?
I wonder if an artistic chimpanzee might also produce works that
seem to correspond in some ways with their astrological chart? I'm
being serious here... :-) I would really like to know.
In your opinion, is astrology/horoscopic expressionism connected
in some way to God? How do you define God?
(Of course, anyone else who is interested in attempting to answer
these questions is welcome to jump in too... :-) )
Pedantus
> Pedantus wrote:
[.....................]
>
>> That xmas I gave my nephew a book on how to draw cartoon characters,
>> my brother worked with him on it for awhile decided to make me look like
>> the doomed Wylie Coyote because he is (was) a very severe critic of my
>> disappointing interests and a hyper-rational skeptic:
>>
>> http://pedantus.free.fr/Horoscopic_Expressionism_03_1a.gif
>
> Very impressive drawing, looks just like the "real" Wylie. And, yes,
> I can definitely see those sun and moon glyph-shaped things in there.
> :-)
He is of course completely unconscious of his projected content
here..as all "artist" say they prefer...creativity flow actually seems
dependent on this blindness to Self. It is as though the perception of
significance requires an expansion of Self and Other--an axis expanding
Up and Down at the same time, all the while ignoring the mere machine
like thing we call self or personality the center--which is like the
physical body engaged in the production of tangible things
(reproductions ?). If he were, as it truly seems, expressing the
essence his House 12 Sun, et al, only the genuine article has enough
contemporary collective symbol potency to conjure the correct sort of
empathy (not pity). He is a very contemplative soulful person, a
frustrated visual poet with a very limited sense of social significance.
>
> So... he _was_ a severe critic, eh? Did he finally change his mind?
> :-)
He is often cynically dismissive of, and wholly distrustful of,
beliefs touting "spiritual" motives...all are assumed to be egocentric
and unfortunately political in nature. All in all a typical victim of
Descartes politically correct (yet schizophrenic) dualism.
>
>> If you notice, both my brother and this fella kenji project Jupiter
>> near the Asc. as a computer ( a box-shaped volume, lots of content--you
>> get the idea).
>
> Aha! I did think of that, actually, but, I hesitated to mention it...
> because I thought, "nah, computers are high-tech gizmos that would go
> with Uranus".
>
> But associating them with Jupiter definitely makes sense in a lot of
> ways. They're wonderful tools for expanding your horizons, learning
> new things, coming into contact with "foreign" cultures and ideas,
> etc., etc. Especially if they're connected to the internet.
http://pedantus.free.fr/TypesOfSymbols_01a1.gif
>
>> Gestalt and emergence:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Emergence.jpg
>
> Fortunately the title of that picture helped me figure out what it
> was... :-)
Fortunately I didn't need a title as clue, but that is the difference
here--it is completely fair to say that the bulk of "astrologers" remain
clueless, in my estimation, because they depend on authoritative input
concerning the possible titles or captions to frame their perceptions.
Now if they were only to follow Virgil through Hell they would get it
--instead of prancing helter skelter in Paradise browsing like fawns. My
brother Terry is unconscious of his ongoing tour with Virgil.
>
> I'm sometimes a bit slow at discerning patterns in, particularly,
> confusing visual things. I think I'm more of a verbal type of person.
> (Though I also have found I have more talent than I thought I did with
> music).
The key idea here is the function of Time and Form (Saturn). We
unfortunately only pay lip service to Einstein's prophetic vision--the
integral relationship between/within time and space. Music and verbal
expressions unfold over a period of perceivable time, visuals are
perceived in a much smaller perion, in an instant, in some cases.
"Meaning" is determined in term of one's frame of reference of course.
Thus we have to realize that astrologers seem to prefer the musical
version in that they assume an unfolding of event, etc., over time we be
the correct mode of perception. So the critical concept which deprives
astrologers of the perceptions with individuated meanings is the bad
habit of ignoring the role of time in the expression of a planets
momentary significance. The fact the a dominat natal planet is often a
subordinated planetary arche (see definition:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arche
When looking at a natal chart aspect, the egoistic practice of
projecting a desired, authoritative seeming, meaning onto that aspect
while using proven dependable cliches voids the appreciation of role of
Time in processes of both both expression and perception. I mean to
point out that, just as a piece in the key of C will "predicably" end on
a C chord, there is no reason to ignore all the instances of a
compositions necessary chordal progressions, which, at any given point
in Time, have no need to feature the C note as the root of the
experienced chord! Expressions of self are like chord progressions, in
that these do unfold over a period of time, and the final expression may
well be "predicable" , but we are always just walking in in the middle
of one's life performance. Visuals are a still frame--like a one second
grasp of that flowing symphony in performance.
Because Saturn is more like Time and Form, its expression will not be
as token-ly visible as other planets; its essence is lent, or given, to
provide Form (the ability to occupy perceptual space) to the others. For
instance, the Moon cannot appear to us as a white crescent if Saturn is
not yielding its own drive toward a dominant visual "presence". Such a
visual would simply exist as a field of Black with no foreground object.
>
>> Once you let go of the fear of seeing Madonnas on every slice of
>> burnt toast,
( a case of cliche archetypal emergence )
>
> :-)
>
>> you begin to realize that a drawing is a drawing, whether
>> intended as a representation of a birth chart or a free associating
>> abstract, the idea of self portrait and Self expression are never from
>>from the act. Astrology is an unconsciously construed Self portrait of
>> the Human being...in the image of "God" of course...:)
>
> Fascinating... :-) I wonder why this is so... why would humans
> develop in such a way as to have some kind of drive to metaphorically
> express what's in their astrological chart... not only in visual art,
> but also in other ways.
It appears to happens at those times when the politics of the ego is
transcended--art happens in response to the personal and collective
unconscious muse directed motives and the subsequent pragmatic "needs"
of those symbol producing motives.
>
> And how do they do it when likely, in many cases, they've never even
> seen their own natal chart?
You are here reflexively assuming that the ego is the seat of
"consciousness"...a dogmatic Western egocentric political
assumption--the emphasis on purposes and goals--House 10 as opposed to
House 9. The later being "knowledge" commonly available to any and all
paradigms and therefore much less provoked by any pragmatic agendas.
>
> I wonder if an artistic chimpanzee might also produce works that
> seem to correspond in some ways with their astrological chart? I'm
> being serious here... :-) I would really like to know.
I've looked into that, in a very superficial way.
http://www.friendsofwashoe.org/tatu_bio.shtml
http://pedantus.free.fr/Tatu_01.gif
Saturn in Leo on the Ascendant would agree with the idea of masks and
a preference for the color black. I think it "works"...:) Now we need
to get a hold of someone who knows the birth time...:)
>
> In your opinion, is astrology/horoscopic expressionism connected
> in some way to God? How do you define God?
"God" is too small a concept in that it is has been depicted,
culturally, as being attached to the ego.
>
> (Of course, anyone else who is interested in attempting to answer
> these questions is welcome to jump in too... :-) )
>
(Just don't expect *me* to listen to some old traditional drivel or
craven new age prophecy...:)
> ----
>
> Apollia
> (Formerly known as Blahhh, but I'm getting tired of having so many
> different aliases on the internet... :-) )
>
> My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> My birth data:
> -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
Thanks,
Rog
chompergirl
consciousness. This is why you are always going on about personality
vs. soul.
Have you said certain planets may perhaps correspond to ego and certain
to soul or some deeper level of consciousness? (You may have, and I
just didn't get it.)
Forgive me for jumping in on your dialogue. Trying to understand
Pedantus is both a mission and a frustration for me.
chompie
Apollia
chompergirl wrote:
(...)
>Forgive me for jumping in on your dialogue.
(...)
No need to ask forgiveness... this _is_ a newsgroup, so, I consider
all discussions completely public and fair game for anyone to jump
into... :-)
Glad to have you here. :-)
chompergirl
seemed to be having a nice little tete-a-tete.
I felt like I was eavesdropping - but I enjoyed it, I admit! :)
chompie
Apollia
>Apollia wrote:
>> Pedantus wrote:
>
>[.....................]
>
>>
>>> That xmas I gave my nephew a book on how to draw cartoon characters,
>>> my brother worked with him on it for awhile decided to make me look like
>>> the doomed Wylie Coyote because he is (was) a very severe critic of my
>>> disappointing interests and a hyper-rational skeptic:
>>>
>>> http://pedantus.free.fr/Horoscopic_Expressionism_03_1a.gif
>>
>> Very impressive drawing, looks just like the "real" Wylie. And, yes,
>> I can definitely see those sun and moon glyph-shaped things in there.
>> :-)
>
> He is of course completely unconscious of his projected content
>here..
Hmm... he just denies there's any connection between what's in the
drawing and what's in the chart, eh?
>as all "artist" say they prefer...creativity flow actually seems
>dependent on this blindness to Self.
Yes, I guess if you know yourself too well then maybe there's less
need to put it in a metaphor. Or at least, maybe, less ability to do
so in a totally spontaneous way.
I can see how knowing your own chart too well might interfere with
some types of horoscopic expressionism.
If I did a drawing and noticed myself drawing things that correlate
with my chart, I might rebelliously start doing things differently,
on purpose.
Or, another possibility might be, someone who knows their own chart
might consciously decide to do a drawing which artificially,
intentionally correlates with their chart.
However, I don't think all creativity requires blindness to Self.
I've created quite a bit essentially just trying to decode my
personal symbolism, dreams, etc., in a massive autobiographical
project. It definitely is lacking in much poeticism and metaphor,
but, it was my largest and most "inspired" project ever.
Too bad my computer crashed... :-( Jupiter in 12 = my computer is my
means of self-undoing? :-)
>It is as though the perception of
>significance requires an expansion of Self and Other--an axis expanding
>Up and Down at the same time, all the while ignoring the mere machine
>like thing we call self or personality the center--which is like the
>physical body engaged in the production of tangible things
>(reproductions ?).
Hmm, interesting perspective. I've long tended to feel more as
though my personality is even more integral to me than my body, but,
maybe even the personality too is just some kind of appendage.
> If he were, as it truly seems, expressing the
>essence his House 12 Sun, et al, only the genuine article has enough
>contemporary collective symbol potency to conjure the correct sort of
>empathy (not pity). He is a very contemplative soulful person, a
>frustrated visual poet with a very limited sense of social significance.
Hmm... maybe his feeling of lack of significance correlates with how
his sun and moon are depicted as very trivial-seeming elements of the
picture.
>>
>> So... he _was_ a severe critic, eh? Did he finally change his mind?
>> :-)
>
> He is often cynically dismissive of, and wholly distrustful of,
>beliefs touting "spiritual" motives...all are assumed to be egocentric
>and unfortunately political in nature.
Hmm... I think I can somewhat sympathise with that, since I do think
probably a lot of "spiritual" beliefs, commandments, etc. originated
from more down-to-earth motives, such as, for instance, a desire to
produce a society which is more pleasant to live in, where people are
invariably nice and moral to each other, etc.
>All in all a typical victim of
>Descartes politically correct (yet schizophrenic) dualism.
Not completely sure what Descartes' dualism was, I looked it up and
found this Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)
Something like, Descartes thought the mind and body were somehow
separate? Actually, I somewhat lean that way myself, though I think
the two definitely influence each other quite a lot.
>>
>>> If you notice, both my brother and this fella kenji project Jupiter
>>> near the Asc. as a computer ( a box-shaped volume, lots of content--you
>>> get the idea).
>>
>> Aha! I did think of that, actually, but, I hesitated to mention it...
>> because I thought, "nah, computers are high-tech gizmos that would go
>> with Uranus".
>>
>> But associating them with Jupiter definitely makes sense in a lot of
>> ways. They're wonderful tools for expanding your horizons, learning
>> new things, coming into contact with "foreign" cultures and ideas,
>> etc., etc. Especially if they're connected to the internet.
>
>http://pedantus.free.fr/TypesOfSymbols_01a1.gif
Interesting...
>>
>>> Gestalt and emergence:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Emergence.jpg
>>
>> Fortunately the title of that picture helped me figure out what it
>> was... :-)
>
> Fortunately I didn't need a title as clue, but that is the difference
>here--it is completely fair to say that the bulk of "astrologers" remain
>clueless, in my estimation, because they depend on authoritative input
>concerning the possible titles or captions to frame their perceptions.
Well, it wasn't quite that I already saw the dog and just needed
authoritative approval to admit it. It just looked like a mass of
black spots to me, and the title let me know that in this mass was
lurking, probably among other possibilities, the shape of a dog.
Once I knew that, I was able to make it out.
I see your point, though. I agree, it's good to not be entirely
dependent on authority, consensus, etc. If I were, I would still be
locked into my old materialist/mainstream skeptical outlooks (which I
now think were probably mistaken).
>Now if they were only to follow Virgil through Hell they would get it
>--instead of prancing helter skelter in Paradise browsing like fawns.
Yes, many of your examples are so striking they're practically
unmistakeable just as long as you're paying attention and already
understand much of the "language" of astrology.
>My brother Terry is unconscious of his ongoing tour with Virgil.
Aww. Well, hopefully someday he'll figure it out.
>>
>> I'm sometimes a bit slow at discerning patterns in, particularly,
>> confusing visual things. I think I'm more of a verbal type of person.
>> (Though I also have found I have more talent than I thought I did with
>> music).
>
> The key idea here is the function of Time and Form (Saturn). We
>unfortunately only pay lip service to Einstein's prophetic vision--the
>integral relationship between/within time and space.
I might pay it lip service if I could understand it... :-) I really
need to learn more about physics someday... mathematics too.
I think it's rather neat that Saturn has long been associated with
both space/form and time - since long before Einstein came
along, I assume.
>Music and verbal
>expressions unfold over a period of perceivable time, visuals are
>perceived in a much smaller perion, in an instant, in some cases.
>"Meaning" is determined in term of one's frame of reference of course.
>Thus we have to realize that astrologers seem to prefer the musical
>version in that they assume an unfolding of event, etc., over time we be
>the correct mode of perception.
Transits, etc.?
>So the critical concept which deprives
>astrologers of the perceptions with individuated meanings is the bad
>habit of ignoring the role of time in the expression of a planets
>momentary significance. The fact the a dominat natal planet is often a
>subordinated planetary arche (see definition:)
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arche
Hmm... I can't quite understand this. I'm still not sure what "arche"
means here exactly.
> When looking at a natal chart aspect, the egoistic practice of
>projecting a desired, authoritative seeming, meaning onto that aspect
>while using proven dependable cliches voids the appreciation of role of
>Time in processes of both both expression and perception.
Well, I can definitely see how relying too heavily on cliches can
lead to problems.
For one thing, I do think chart factors can be expressed in very
personalized ways that are totally unique to the person, and which
conceivably might not even apply to a single other person who has
that same chart factor.
For another, the cliches might be completely wrong for the person.
>I mean to
>point out that, just as a piece in the key of C will "predicably" end on
>a C chord, there is no reason to ignore all the instances of a
>compositions necessary chordal progressions, which, at any given point
>in Time, have no need to feature the C note as the root of the
>experienced chord! Expressions of self are like chord progressions, in
>that these do unfold over a period of time, and the final expression may
>well be "predicable" , but we are always just walking in in the middle
>of one's life performance. Visuals are a still frame--like a one second
>grasp of that flowing symphony in performance.
Ah... very clear description.
Makes sense. No one can express their every personality trait at
every single moment... even if their charts seem to say they possibly
have a habit of being "intense", "wishy-washy", "argumentative", etc.,
it's quite possible to catch them at a moment where they're being none
of those things.
> Because Saturn is more like Time and Form, its expression will not be
>as token-ly visible as other planets; its essence is lent, or given, to
>provide Form (the ability to occupy perceptual space) to the others. For
>instance, the Moon cannot appear to us as a white crescent if Saturn is
>not yielding its own drive toward a dominant visual "presence". Such a
>visual would simply exist as a field of Black with no foreground object.
I can agree with that.
>>
>>> Once you let go of the fear of seeing Madonnas on every slice of
>>> burnt toast,
>
> ( a case of cliche archetypal emergence )
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>> you begin to realize that a drawing is a drawing, whether
>>> intended as a representation of a birth chart or a free associating
>>> abstract, the idea of self portrait and Self expression are never from
>>>from the act. Astrology is an unconsciously construed Self portrait of
>>> the Human being...in the image of "God" of course...:)
>>
>> Fascinating... :-) I wonder why this is so... why would humans
>> develop in such a way as to have some kind of drive to metaphorically
>> express what's in their astrological chart... not only in visual art,
>> but also in other ways.
>
> It appears to happens at those times when the politics of the ego is
>transcended--art happens in response to the personal and collective
>unconscious muse directed motives and the subsequent pragmatic "needs"
>of those symbol producing motives.
Interesting...
>> And how do they do it when likely, in many cases, they've never even
>> seen their own natal chart?
>
> You are here reflexively assuming that the ego is the seat of
>"consciousness"...
Could be... :-)
>a dogmatic Western egocentric political
>assumption--the emphasis on purposes and goals--House 10 as opposed to
>House 9. The later being "knowledge" commonly available to any and all
>paradigms and therefore much less provoked by any pragmatic agendas.
Yes, I think I agree with your astrology there.
Hmm, I wonder why whatever it is that transcends the ego has the urge,
or if not urge, tendency, to produce, or stimulate people to produce,
art.
>> I wonder if an artistic chimpanzee might also produce works that
>> seem to correspond in some ways with their astrological chart? I'm
>> being serious here... :-) I would really like to know.
>
> I've looked into that, in a very superficial way.
>
>http://www.friendsofwashoe.org/tatu_bio.shtml
>http://pedantus.free.fr/Tatu_01.gif
Cool!!! :-D
> Saturn in Leo on the Ascendant would agree with the idea of masks and
>a preference for the color black. I think it "works"...:)
Hmm, yes... :-)
And perhaps sun and Mercury in Capricorn, with the sun in mutual
reception with Saturn in Leo provide further emphasis. Maybe even sun
square Pluto too. And/or Venus in Scorpio.
Saturn/Capricorn and Pluto/Scorpio are the two sets of things in
astrology I tend to associate most with the color black.
>Now we need to get a hold of someone who knows the birth time...:)
Yes, that would be very interesting... :-)
>> In your opinion, is astrology/horoscopic expressionism connected
>> in some way to God? How do you define God?
>
> "God" is too small a concept in that it is has been depicted,
>culturally, as being attached to the ego.
Yes... I guess many stories of God depict God as engaging in very petty
behavior that seems like it ought to be beneath God... :-)
>> (Of course, anyone else who is interested in attempting to answer
>> these questions is welcome to jump in too... :-) )
>>
> (Just don't expect *me* to listen to some old traditional drivel or
>craven new age prophecy...:)
Hee, hee... :-)
(...)
>Thanks,
>
>Rog
Thank you. :-)
chompergirl
Reading your responses helped me to understand the original. Maybe you
should be a literary critic or something. Hmmm. You need to get a PhD
in English lit, maybe. But the computer stuff is all good. You can
definitely explain things to people, I'm thinking.
I couldn't see the dog either, right away, but then it emerged. My
brother and Mom couldn't see it - although I didn't tell them at first
they were looking for a dog. After I told them what they were looking
for, my Mom eventually kind of saw it. I don't think my brother ever
managed to see it.
I think it's Eskimos who can see multiple images at the same time. Now
that is cool! :)
Pedantus
[.........................]
>
> I think it's Eskimos who can see multiple images at the same time. Now
> that is cool! :)
Chompie, with the best of intentions but maybe the wrong reason,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
you have provided us a point to the vocabulary which seems very useful
in describing the nature of the communication involved in the
"interpretation" of planets in aspects from signs and houses--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morpheme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language
"[..]I have explained elsewhere what I mean by a polysynthetic or
syntactic construction of language.... It is that in which the greatest
number of ideas are comprised in the least number of words. [..]"
This condensed, poetic, metaphoric quality of aspects--when they are
viewed as potential units of meaning--presumes that they are more like
images, "worth a thousand words" , so to speak.
Jung and others refer to words as being more like "persons", as a way
to respect all their innate complexity. When we think about how
astrologers go to extremes to simplify natal charts, someone like Noel
Tyl comes to mind--he actually tries to condense a natal chart to three
descriptive words!....:)
http://pedantus.free.fr/Tyl_Noel_01.gif
In terms of Tyl's chart, this attempted compression is probably in
part the functional expression of his natal Saturn opposite
Neptune--putting the most extend-able word symbols in the smallest
amount of space.
[........................]
Rog
chompergirl
> chompergirl wrote:
> [.........................]
> >
> > I think it's Eskimos who can see multiple images at the same time. Now
> > that is cool! :)
>
>
> Chompie, with the best of intentions but maybe the wrong reason,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
What I meant about the Eskimos - maybe it's the Inuit - I forget - is
that they can see the word FedEx and the arrow in the logo image at the
same time. It's like the chalice that is also two faces. They can view
see both simultaneously. Or is that a myth too? Well, in any case....
>
> you have provided us a point to the vocabulary which seems very useful
> in describing the nature of the communication involved in the
> "interpretation" of planets in aspects from signs and houses--
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morpheme
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language
> "[..]I have explained elsewhere what I mean by a polysynthetic or
> syntactic construction of language.... It is that in which the greatest
> number of ideas are comprised in the least number of words. [..]"
>
> This condensed, poetic, metaphoric quality of aspects--when they are
> viewed as potential units of meaning--presumes that they are more like
> images, "worth a thousand words" , so to speak.
>
> Jung and others refer to words as being more like "persons", as a way
> to respect all their innate complexity. When we think about how
> astrologers go to extremes to simplify natal charts, someone like Noel
> Tyl comes to mind--he actually tries to condense a natal chart to three
> descriptive words!....:)
That is precisely why I like to believe that transits and progressions
can show growth or opportunities for growth. The astrologer I recently
saw in NYC barely even bothered to give me a reading. Why? He had
looked at my chart and decided I could be summed up in one word:
Shoulda
Pedantus
> Pedantus wrote:
>> chompergirl wrote:
>> [.........................]
>>> I think it's Eskimos who can see multiple images at the same time. Now
>>> that is cool! :)
>>
>> Chompie, with the best of intentions but maybe the wrong reason,
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
>
> What I meant about the Eskimos - maybe it's the Inuit - I forget - is
> that they can see the word FedEx and the arrow in the logo image at the
> same time. It's like the chalice that is also two faces. They can view
> see both simultaneously. Or is that a myth too?
Seems very likely...the artificial division of the Romantic era tried
very hard to see innocent "natural" persons as somehow being superior to
ourselves as decadent "cultivated" persons...blinkered by our synthetic
motives and so forth--the supposed superior moral perception of Tarzan,
for example.
Well, in any case....
>> you have provided us a point to the vocabulary which seems very useful
>> in describing the nature of the communication involved in the
>> "interpretation" of planets in aspects from signs and houses--
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morpheme
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language
>> "[..]I have explained elsewhere what I mean by a polysynthetic or
>> syntactic construction of language.... It is that in which the greatest
>> number of ideas are comprised in the least number of words. [..]"
>>
>> This condensed, poetic, metaphoric quality of aspects--when they are
>> viewed as potential units of meaning--presumes that they are more like
>> images, "worth a thousand words" , so to speak.
>>
>> Jung and others refer to words as being more like "persons", as a way
>> to respect all their innate complexity. When we think about how
>> astrologers go to extremes to simplify natal charts, someone like Noel
>> Tyl comes to mind--he actually tries to condense a natal chart to three
>> descriptive words!....:)
>
> That is precisely why I like to believe that transits and progressions
> can show growth or opportunities for growth. The astrologer I recently
> saw in NYC barely even bothered to give me a reading. Why? He had
> looked at my chart and decided I could be summed up in one word:
> Shoulda
He was just looking at the "arrow" embedded in the negative space you
provided ....:)
Pedantus
[....................]
>
> Hmm... he just denies there's any connection between what's in the
> drawing and what's in the chart, eh?
>
>> as all "artists" say they prefer...creativity flow actually seems
>> dependent on this blindness to Self.
>
> Yes, I guess if you know yourself too well then maybe there's less
> need to put it in a metaphor. Or at least, maybe, less ability to do
> so in a totally spontaneous way.
Here I think you are addressing the primary obstacle we encounter
when attempting to show a correlation between natal charts as symbolized
potential and observed expression as symbolized Self.
>
>
> I can see how knowing your own chart too well might interfere with
> some types of horoscopic expressionism.
>
> If I did a drawing and noticed myself drawing things that correlate
> with my chart, I might rebelliously start doing things differently,
> on purpose.
>
> Or, another possibility might be, someone who knows their own chart
> might consciously decide to do a drawing which artificially,
> intentionally correlates with their chart.
>
>
> However, I don't think all creativity requires blindness to Self.
> I've created quite a bit essentially just trying to decode my
> personal symbolism, dreams, etc., in a massive autobiographical
> project. It definitely is lacking in much poeticism and metaphor,
> but, it was my largest and most "inspired" project ever.
>
> Too bad my computer crashed... :-( Jupiter in 12 = my computer is my
> means of self-undoing? :-)
Or just the limits of the persona's or ego's usefulness as warehouse
manager...:)
>
>> It is as though the perception of
>> significance requires an expansion of Self and Other--an axis expanding
>> Up and Down at the same time, all the while ignoring the mere machine
>> like thing we call self or personality the center--which is like the
>> physical body engaged in the production of tangible things
>> (reproductions ?).
>
> Hmm, interesting perspective.
Well, if I can picture it, someone else has surely done so before...:)
Here is the Self Other axis in one system I just found:
http://www.psyche.com/psyche/cube/cube_metapsychology.html
I've long tended to feel more as
> though my personality is even more integral to me than my body, but,
> maybe even the personality too is just some kind of appendage.
http://www.psyche.com/psyche/images/misc/jung-psyche2_sm2.gif
http://www.psyche.com/psyche/cube/cube_psyche.html
[......................................]
Pedantus
[.............]
> Not completely sure what Descartes' dualism was, I looked it up and
> found this Wikipedia page:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)
>
> Something like, Descartes thought the mind and body were somehow
> separate? Actually, I somewhat lean that way myself, though I think
> the two definitely influence each other quite a lot.
As James Hillman explains, Descartes literally confined the soul to
the apparently function-less pineal gland ...:)
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pineal-gland/
The mind versus body division kept Spirit as the vital source of mind,
and pretty much dumped the enigmatic soul into the garbage with the
mortal body. The "I" (Ego) is fond of Spirit, its masculine, quickening,
ascending and transcending, categorizing and explanatory...in short, not
sluggish, pathos dwelling, doubtful and feminine. As we all know, Doubt,
as a pathology of the Spirit, is the actual source of Descartes' method
of inquiry. The mood and negative polarity of Doubt is the animating
precondition of his Aries "I am" concerns. His simplistic dualism of
mind and body forced a concatenation of Spirit and Soul, forged them
into Thought, I guess.
[..................]
chompergirl
Do you think the warehouse manager could be retrained, maybe try
mediation, and get better at his/her job?
Pedantus
[...................]
> Do you think the warehouse manager could be retrained, maybe try
> mediation, and get better at his/her job?
My experience has always showed me that there is no training for being
who you are. And all the simplistic solutions people offer, such as
don't wear you heart on you sleeve, are worthless. The chances of being
in the right place at the right time are greatly enhanced simply by
moving about. I have always followed my heart in search of my
soul...what other people choose is up to them.
chompergirl
Hard to disagree with that.
Apollia
>Wow , you hung in there! You follow Pedantus a lot better than I do!
>Reading your responses helped me to understand the original. Maybe you
>should be a literary critic or something. Hmmm. You need to get a PhD
>in English lit, maybe. But the computer stuff is all good. You can
>definitely explain things to people, I'm thinking.
Thanks for the ideas and flattery... :-)
(...)
Rog wrote:
>chompergirl wrote:
>[.........................]
>>
>> I think it's Eskimos who can see multiple images at the same time. Now
>> that is cool! :)
>
>
>Chompie, with the best of intentions but maybe the wrong reason,
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
>
> you have provided us a point to the vocabulary which seems very useful
>in describing the nature of the communication involved in the
>"interpretation" of planets in aspects from signs and houses--
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morpheme
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language
>"[..]I have explained elsewhere what I mean by a polysynthetic or
>syntactic construction of language.... It is that in which the greatest
>number of ideas are comprised in the least number of words. [..]"
>
> This condensed, poetic, metaphoric quality of aspects--when they are
>viewed as potential units of meaning--presumes that they are more like
>images, "worth a thousand words" , so to speak.
Nifty stuff... :-)
I agree completely. There are so many different possible valid
interpretations compressed into any given astrological statement...
> Jung and others refer to words as being more like "persons", as a way
>to respect all their innate complexity.
Interesting.
I think words in the language of astrology are a lot more complex and
full of various meanings/nuances/implications/etc. than than the
average word in English, though.
For instance, Rex E. Bill's "The Rulership Book", goes on for 20 pages
listing nothing but concepts apparently associated with Saturn.
>When we think about how
>astrologers go to extremes to simplify natal charts, someone like Noel
>Tyl comes to mind--he actually tries to condense a natal chart to three
>descriptive words!....:)
Wow... :-) If I were forced to do that for a chart I'd probably end
up saying, "More words please!!!!!!!!!!" Or, "refer to chart". Or,
"words fail me".
Still, sounds like an interesting technique... sounds like it could
be educational, especially for anyone who finds it easy to get lost
in all the tons of details in a chart. A way to try to force
yourself to zero in on the absolutely most important pieces.
>http://pedantus.free.fr/Tyl_Noel_01.gif
-qa Dec 31 1936 15:57 EST 75:36W 39:58N
(Location: West Chester, PA)
> In terms of Tyl's chart, this attempted compression is probably in
>part the functional expression of his natal Saturn opposite
>Neptune--putting the most extend-able word symbols in the smallest
>amount of space.
>
>[........................]
>
>
>Rog
Hmm, yeah. There's a fair bit of Capricorn in his chart, too... Sun,
Mercury, Jupiter.
chompergirl wrote:
>Pedantus wrote:
(...)
>> Jung and others refer to words as being more like "persons", as a way
>> to respect all their innate complexity. When we think about how
>> astrologers go to extremes to simplify natal charts, someone like Noel
>> Tyl comes to mind--he actually tries to condense a natal chart to three
>> descriptive words!....:)
>
>That is precisely why I like to believe that transits and progressions
>can show growth or opportunities for growth. The astrologer I recently
>saw in NYC barely even bothered to give me a reading. Why? He had
>looked at my chart and decided I could be summed up in one word:
>Shoulda
Dang, that's lazy. I hope you got your money back... :-)