Controversial Topics in Astrology
ast...@yahoo.com
astrologers are:
House systems---which is the best (there are about 20)
Orbs allowed for aspects (from 0 to up to 17 degrees)
What planets (and/or asteroids) are vital for chart interpretation
Midpoints---whether or not to use them;
What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
What makes a person a jerk or a nerd, astrologically speaking;
Which aspects are required for optimial chart interpretation;
Hypothetical planets (there are lots out there--maybe);
Whether calculated chart interpretations have "soul"
What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
When will the Age of Aquarius begin, exactly
Astrology - Cause and Effect ,Synchronicity,or both
Coordinate System - Geocentric or Heliocentric
Which Astrology system to use - Regular Mainstream Astrology,
Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,Vedic Astrology,Magi Astrology,Galactic
Astrology,Heliocentric Astrology, Asteroid Astrology,Mayan
Astrology,Aztec Astrology,Chinese Astrology, Sidereal Western
Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,Evolutionary Astrology,Shamanic
Astrology
Fixed Star Methods - parans like Bernadette Brady uses or projected
ecliptic longitude positions like Diana Rosenberg uses
Sunsign matching - whether it works or not
Which sign Pluto should rule - Aries or Scorpio
Should Chiron rule Virgo
Which object rules Virgo:
Which object rules Libra:
Zodiac Signs - whether to use them or not....Uranian Astrologers don't
focus on zodiac signs
Houses - whether to use them or not.....e.g. Cosmobiology doesn't
included houses
minor aspects - whether to use them or not
Relationship Charts - Composite or Davison
Zodiac systems - Sidereal,Tropical, or the actual constellations
Geocentric or Heliocentric
the use of declinations - yes or no
The use of nodes of objects other than the Moon - yes or no
If using nodes of other objects - Heliocentric or Geocentric
Which Nodes - Mean or True
Which Black Moon Lilith - Mean or True
Eris,Pluto,and Ceres - do we make them equal in Astrology as they are
in Astronomy?
What points are useful,relevant in the chart
Whether homosexuality can be indicated by the chart,and what are the
indicators
Learning disability indicators:
Intelligence indicators:
Conjunctions,oppositions,squares,semisquares,sesquiquadrates - are
they actually stressful,challenging OR do they have to do with
concrete events which is the case in Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology
Kjell
My answers below.
On Feb 24, 2:21 pm, "asty...@yahoo.com" <asty...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
> astrologers are:
>
> House systems---which is the best (there are about 20)
Placidus. Always. And the intermediate cusps are sensitive too!
> Orbs allowed for aspects (from 0 to up to 17 degrees)
I would give up to 17°30 for the Sun if the aspect is not "in the
wrong signs" (for example, an opposition between Sagittarius and
Cancer.
OTOH, I think that exact aspects are SO much stronger, since the
planets are activated in quite another way by transits, progressions
etc.
> What planets (and/or asteroids) are vital for chart interpretation
My idea is that a sensible understanding of the chart can only come by
seeing the different parts of it as describing the same thing, namely
the chartholder. So despite oppositions and squares, all factors work
together to make us what we are. Practically speaking, for most more
than the Luminaries would be needed, because the "holographic pattern"
will be more easily noticed when seen from several viewpoints, and in
greater detail. And for most there must also be a limit on how much
information you can process without losing the thread, so to speak.
So it is more a matter of how you yourself process information than
what celestial bodies or abstract points are valuable. Probably all
are.
>
> Midpoints---whether or not to use them;
Sun-Moon mp is vital. Mars-Venus of interest. :-)
> What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
I believe lots of mutual receptions makes understanding extremely much
easier. Whether understanding relates to "true love" remains to be
seen, however. :-)
> What makes a person a jerk or a nerd, astrologically speaking;
I think that has got more to do with synastry than with the individual
chart.
> Which aspects are required for optimial chart interpretation;
That would differ with what person is to be described.
> Hypothetical planets (there are lots out there--maybe);
As long as they are hypothetical, so are their interpretations.
> Whether calculated chart interpretations have "soul"
Doesn't matter as long as they say relevant stuff.
> What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
No idea.
> When will the Age of Aquarius begin, exactly
Well, when exactly did the Age of Pisces begin? I think it was with
Caesar, not with Christ.
> Astrology - Cause and Effect ,Synchronicity,or both
I am more into "holographic" thinking. You can see eternity in a grain
of sand, etc.
> Coordinate System - Geocentric or Heliocentric
Geo, but that's mainly because I haven't had the time to work through
the alternative and don't know enough about it.
> Which Astrology system to use - Regular Mainstream Astrology,
> Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,Vedic Astrology,Magi Astrology,Galactic
> Astrology,Heliocentric Astrology, Asteroid Astrology,Mayan
> Astrology,Aztec Astrology,Chinese Astrology, Sidereal Western
> Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,Evolutionary Astrology,Shamanic
> Astrology
Whatever works for you and seems to have a solid theoretical
foundation.
> Fixed Star Methods - parans like Bernadette Brady uses or projected
> ecliptic longitude positions like Diana Rosenberg uses
I haven't tried these on so I couldn't say.
> Sunsign matching - whether it works or not
Sometimes. :-)
> Which sign Pluto should rule - Aries or Scorpio
If any, Scorpio. But it would be fitting to have it exalted in
Capricorn.
> Should Chiron rule Virgo
Nope.
> Which object rules Virgo:
Mercury.
> Which object rules Libra:
Venus.
> Zodiac Signs - whether to use them or not....Uranian Astrologers don't
> focus on zodiac signs
My flavour is tropical Sun signs.
> Houses - whether to use them or not.....e.g. Cosmobiology doesn't
> included houses
See above. Placidus, including intermediate cusps.
> minor aspects - whether to use them or not
If strengthening a tendency already seen they may confirm, or if in an
interesting and cohesive pattern. And, again, it depends on how you
process information.
> Relationship Charts - Composite or Davison
I don't think I know Davison charts. Is that for the intermediate
place and time? If so, I think both are okay.
> Zodiac systems - Sidereal,Tropical, or the actual constellations
Tropical, but the fixed stars according to their "given" natures.
> Geocentric or Heliocentric
Hey, repetition! ;-)
>
> the use of declinations - yes or no
Too much information for me to handle.
> The use of nodes of objects other than the Moon - yes or no
Interesting, but too much work.
> If using nodes of other objects - Heliocentric or Geocentric
See previous.
> Which Nodes - Mean or True
Again.
> Which Black Moon Lilith - Mean or True
I can't say.
> Eris,Pluto,and Ceres - do we make them equal in Astrology as they are
> in Astronomy?
Perhaps the next generation will.
> What points are useful,relevant in the chart
Depends upon the astrologer to a great extent.
> Whether homosexuality can be indicated by the chart,and what are the
> indicators
As much or as little as everything else, I'd guess.
The indicators might change with societal attitudes also. I read
someplace that Neptune in the fifth house would be an indicator
("secret love affairs"), but in a society where homosexuality is
relatively accepted, perhaps that indicator would no longer be
describing of homosexuality?
> Learning disability indicators:
I think it would be more about how you handle things than what
"things" you got, but I do not know for certain.
> Intelligence indicators:
See previous.
> Conjunctions,oppositions,squares,semisquares,sesquiquadrates - are
> they actually stressful,challenging OR do they have to do with
> concrete events which is the case in Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology
I think both. Concrete events ARE stressful! ;-)
/Kjell
astrpophageous
3771630a-a819-47ae...@d5g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Okay, I'm on! ;-)
>
> My answers below.
>
> On Feb 24, 2:21 pm, "asty...@yahoo.com" <asty...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
>> astrologers are:
>>
>
>> What makes a person a jerk or a nerd, astrologically speaking;
>
> I think that has got more to do with synastry than with the individual
> chart.
Well, Kjell, I think this is a very wise statement. If ever I have seen
astrological wisdom, this must surely be part of it.
...
>
>> Which Black Moon Lilith - Mean or True
>
> I can't say.
Must be true. I mean True. See Juan Anton Revila.
>
....
>
> The indicators might change with societal attitudes also. I read
> someplace that Neptune in the fifth house would be an indicator
> ("secret love affairs"),
Neptune in the fifth house = Lucrezia Borgia ? (used poison, remember)>
...
Astropophageous
Bogdan Krusinski
Uzytkownik <ast...@yahoo.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:d882111a-0987-444d...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
> astrologers are:
>
>
> House systems---which is the best (there are about 20)
>
Krusinski only. Intermediate cusp are no more sensitive to transits and
progressions than signs cusps are.
>
> Orbs allowed for aspects (from 0 to up to 17 degrees)
>
Up to 10 degrees if sun or moon or asc is involved. But I use also "sign
aspects" treating them as weaker version of "arc aspect" (0 aries to 29
cancer is still a square) along with arc aspects.
>
> What planets (and/or asteroids) are vital for chart interpretation
>
sun moon mercury venus mars ceres jupiter saturn uranus neptune pluto kora
asc mc
>
> Midpoints---whether or not to use them;
>
until I analyse chart as thoroughly as it takes at least a week they are of
little importance to me
>
> What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
>
asc+moon+venus of person1 to sun+jupiter+neptune+kora of person2 paired with
asc+moon+venus of person2 to sun++jupiter+neptune+kora of person 1
>
> Which aspects are required for optimal chart interpretation;
>
0 - 30 -60 -90 - 120-150-180 that's enough
>
> Hypothetical planets (there are lots out there--maybe);
>
none
>
> What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
>
12-13 degree of saggitarius ascendant
>
> Astrology - Cause and Effect ,Synchronicity,or both
>
doesn't matter as long as astrology works
>
> Coordinate System - Geocentric or Heliocentric
>
Geoncetric only
>
> Which Astrology system to use - Regular Mainstream Astrology,
> Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,Vedic Astrology,Magi Astrology,Galactic
> Astrology,Heliocentric Astrology, Asteroid Astrology,Mayan
> Astrology,Aztec Astrology,Chinese Astrology, Sidereal Western
> Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,Evolutionary Astrology,Shamanic
> Astrology
>
humanistic is closest to true traditional astrology, but must be coupled
with predictive brand to be useful enough
>
> Fixed Star Methods - parans like Bernadette Brady uses or projected
> ecliptic longitude positions like Diana Rosenberg uses
>
none. I do not use fixed stars - there are too many trillions of trillions
of them.
>
> Sunsign matching - whether it works or not
>
it does not work definitely
>
> Which sign Pluto should rule - Aries or Scorpio
>
Scorpio only
>
> Should Chiron rule Virgo
>
comets do not rule signs so as Chiron is a comet it does not rule anything
>
> Which object rules Virgo:
>
Ceres
>
> Which object rules Libra:
>
Wow. This one controversy I've never heard about. There was always question
"which object rules Taurus" and there never was question about Libra and its
ruler which is Venus.
>
> Which object rules Taurus:
>
Kora (MPC Catalog No 136199).
>
> Zodiac Signs - whether to use them or not....Uranian Astrologers don't
> focus on zodiac signs
>
You could always get rid of signs, but every branch of astrology that did so
invented instead methods to fill the hole and every one of these methods is
definitely worse and less usable than signs.
>
> Houses - whether to use them or not.....e.g. Cosmobiology doesn't
> included houses
>
Use them. You must use extremely flawed house system like equal or campanus
or whole to spoil them beyond usability even at latitudes of 50N to 60N.
>
> minor aspects - whether to use them or not
>
I do not use them.
>
> Relationship Charts - Composite or Davison
>
Davison is fictious construct and in astrological practice loses every match
with composite, but frankly nowadays I use midpoint composite very rarely
too since it is not that useful as advertised by its advocates.
>
> Zodiac systems - Sidereal,Tropical, or the actual constellations
>
Tropical.
>
> the use of declinations - yes or no
>
not that important as longitude aspects
>
> The use of nodes of objects other than the Moon - yes or no
>
all nodes are of secondary importance
>
> Which Nodes - Mean or True
>
Since discovery of 136199 Kora I use no nodes. So much working True went
with the airlock after this. :|
>
> Whether homosexuality can be indicated by the chart,and what are the
> indicators
>
No way. The same as sex that can't be read from chart.
Todd Carnes
Todd Carnes
news:d882111a-0987-444d...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
> astrologers are:
>
>
> House systems---which is the best (there are about 20)
I use Regiomontanus - even though I usually can't spell it. :)
> Orbs allowed for aspects (from 0 to up to 17 degrees)
Depends on the planet. I usually use Lilly's orbs and moety. (again with the
spellling <grin>)
> What planets (and/or asteroids) are vital for chart interpretation
Sun through Saturn.
> Midpoints---whether or not to use them;
Never use them.
> What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
There is no such thing. Nothing is "absolute" in astrology. Having said
that, I think you really need to have really good receptions.
> What makes a person a jerk or a nerd, astrologically speaking;
I agree with Kjell, this is a matter of synistry.
> Which aspects are required for optimial chart interpretation;
The Ptolemic aspects are all that are needed.
> Hypothetical planets (there are lots out there--maybe);
Waste of time. They have no light - so cannot act.
> Whether calculated chart interpretations have "soul"
Huh?
> What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
I like the chart for the Surrender at yorktown myself, but I don't think
that was what you wanted. :)
> When will the Age of Aquarius begin, exactly
How do you know it hasn't already started?
> Astrology - Cause and Effect ,Synchronicity,or both
Not sure.
> Coordinate System - Geocentric or Heliocentric
geocentric
>
> Which Astrology system to use - Regular Mainstream Astrology,
> Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,Vedic Astrology,Magi Astrology,Galactic
> Astrology,Heliocentric Astrology, Asteroid Astrology,Mayan
> Astrology,Aztec Astrology,Chinese Astrology, Sidereal Western
> Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,Evolutionary Astrology,Shamanic
> Astrology
Traditional astrology as taught by Lilly, et al.
> Fixed Star Methods - parans like Bernadette Brady uses or projected
> ecliptic longitude positions like Diana Rosenberg uses
I don't use them much, but when I do i use them as traditionally given -
again see Lilly and friends.
> Sunsign matching - whether it works or not
In general...it's too general <grin>, but it can have its moments.
> Which sign Pluto should rule - Aries or Scorpio
Pluto doesn't rule anything.
> Should Chiron rule Virgo
Of course not. Virgo belongs to Mercury.
> Which object rules Virgo:
See above.
>
> Which object rules Libra:
Venus, of course. :)
> Zodiac Signs - whether to use them or not....Uranian Astrologers don't
> focus on zodiac signs
Use the TRADITIONAL signs.
> Houses - whether to use them or not.....e.g. Cosmobiology doesn't
> included houses
Use them.
> minor aspects - whether to use them or not
Don't use them.
>
> Relationship Charts - Composite or Davison
There are more than just these two, but I wouldn't use any of them. use
synistry instead.
> Zodiac systems - Sidereal,Tropical, or the actual constellations
Tropical
>
> Geocentric or Heliocentric
Geocentric
>
> the use of declinations - yes or no
I have looked at them from time to time, but rarely found them of any use.
>
> The use of nodes of objects other than the Moon - yes or no
No
>
> If using nodes of other objects - Heliocentric or Geocentric
>
> Which Nodes - Mean or True
>
> Which Black Moon Lilith - Mean or True
don't use Lilith
>
> Eris,Pluto,and Ceres - do we make them equal in Astrology as they are
> in Astronomy?
I don't think it's necessary, or even desireable to use the outers - so in a
sense, I guess I'd say that they are indeed equally useless.
> What points are useful,relevant in the chart
Ascendent, MC, Nadir and descendent....in other words the angles.
> Whether homosexuality can be indicated by the chart,and what are the
> indicators
It probably is, but I've never bothered to look since I think this is a
silly question and not worth looking into. This is only my opinion, mind
you, but I think most people that make a big deal about this are too
immature and really need to grow up. Sexual orientaion is such a non-issue.
> Learning disability indicators:
Every chart's different. You have to look at it as a whole. You can't single
out any one "indicator" and say 'this means...". It's how all the parts
interact as a whole.
>
> Intelligence indicators:
see above.
>
> Conjunctions,oppositions,squares,semisquares,sesquiquadrates - are
> they actually stressful,challenging OR do they have to do with
> concrete events which is the case in Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology
>
Again, I think Kjell put it well. Concrete events ARE stressful. :)
chom...@gmail.com
>
> Orbs allowed for aspects (from 0 to up to 17 degrees)
I'd love to know what orb to use for trines (that don't include the
Sun, Moon or Asc.) If I use a wider orb, I have a grand trine. If I
use a 5 degree orb, oh well!
>
> What planets (and/or asteroids) are vital for chart interpretation
I don't think you can blow off Chiron, whatever it is.
>
> What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
Wish I had my grandparents exact charts. They had true love. I will
look for their data - which I believe I posted here in the late 90s or
early '00s - but it won't include birth times, of course.
> When will the Age of Aquarius begin, exactly
Hasn't it? EVERYthing is tech oriented now. I think we are there.
Maybe I'm just getting old but the younsters seem pretty ojective, if
wrongheaded, to me. Why would "love steer the stars" in an Aquarian
Age? Or is that just a silly song?
>
> Should Chiron rule Virgo
This interests me. Everyone seems to agree Chiron should not rule
Virgo. Virgo is on the cusp of my 6th. EVERY job I've ever had has
come through friends. Chiron is posited in my 11th. I was just
starting to think Chiron ruling Virgo would explain that. Mercury is
in my second. Saturn, which rules my 10th, is in the 10th. NYC 4:22
AM, 5/27/62, if anyone wants to find another explanation.
>
> the use of declinations - yes or no
I think they work
> What points are useful,relevant in the chart
Probably a lot that would make synthesis even more challenging.
>
> Whether homosexuality can be indicated by the chart,and what are the
> indicators
I remember someone here in the late 90s said he was going to write a
book about homosexuality in charts. I wonder what happened to that
book? Does anyone know who that was? I definitely emailed with someone
who told me that.
astropophageous
fq3lir$u5j$1...@aioe.org...
> "Kjell" <kjel...@gmail.com> wrote in news message
> 3771630a-a819-47ae...@d5g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> Okay, I'm on! ;-)
>>
>> My answers below.
>>
>> On Feb 24, 2:21 pm, "asty...@yahoo.com" <asty...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
>>> astrologers are:
>>>
> ...
>
>>
>>> What makes a person a jerk or a nerd, astrologically speaking;
>>
>> I think that has got more to do with synastry than with the individual
>> chart.
>
> Well, Kjell, I think this is a very wise statement. If ever I have seen
> astrological wisdom, this must surely be part of it.
>
> ...
>
>>
>>> Which Black Moon Lilith - Mean or True
>>
>> I can't say.
>
> Must be true. I mean True. See Juan Anton Revila.
Sorry. Meant "Juan Antonio Revilla".
Astropophageous
chom...@gmail.com
Grandpa
April 28, 1895
NYC
Grandma
July 27, 1894
NYC
Thoth
> Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
> astrologers are:
>
>
> House systems---which is the best (there are about 20)
I prefer Placidus, but each has its use.
> Orbs allowed for aspects (from 0 to up to 17 degrees)
1-8 degrees applying & 1-6 degrees separating, depending on the aspect
> What planets (and/or asteroids) are vital for chart interpretation
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune & Uranus are
vital. However, I like to think of Pluto, Chiron, Ceres, Vesta, Pallas,
Juno & Eris as extra "seasoning"
> Midpoints---whether or not to use them;
Sure. I also like Arabian Parts & Hellenistic Lots...
> What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
Define "true love." (If you have a narcissist, do you attempt synastry
on 2 identical copies of his birth chart?) There is no absolute
indicator. The only indicator is of compatibility and anyone can
experience true love, no matter what the synastry or composite charts
have to say. Anyway, no objective answer available for this question.
> What makes a person a jerk or a nerd, astrologically speaking;
Perhaps a Mars in rule/exaltation with Mercury in fall/detriment makes a
jock/jerk, while Mercury in rule/exaltation and Mars in fall/detriment
might a nerd make... Who knows? I'm a bookworm (Virgo/Sun; Gemini/Moon).
> Which aspects are required for optimial chart interpretation;
Depends on what you're looking for. I like to use conjunction,
opposition, square, trine, sextile, quincunx/inconjunct, semi-sextile
and quintile. However, all have their uses to someone and all are worth
studying, but they are only a part of the equation. If you focus on
obscure minor aspects too much, you miss the tree for the forest. Aside
from the major aspects and a couple of minor ones, I find that the meat
of the delineation is in 0/60/90/120/180 with the remaining aspects
acting as "seasoning" or to reveal subtleties within the chart.
> Hypothetical planets (there are lots out there--maybe);
What about them? If they've not been proven, they're merely "sensitive"
points to be examined and correlated in the future. In the present, I
believe the lack of a proven planet represents something we as a whole
are not necessarily supposed to know at this exact moment.
> Whether calculated chart interpretations have "soul"
Only if they're read and edited by an astrologer. It will have a generic
flavor to it and if the recipient is not astute, they would see through
the cookie-cutter cookbook astrology approach and realize that someone
is just trying to make a buck off them without actually analyzing their
chart in depth.
> What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
Your guess is as good as mine.
> When will the Age of Aquarius begin, exactly
Sooner or later. Who really knows? Just like the size of orbs, which
planets/aspects to use, etc., it all comes down to a matter of opinion.
I still believe we are firmly within the grips of the Piscean era and
will be stuck here for a while longer. I'm not sure when it will begin.
I'd love to think it's already started, but I think these might be more
or less the effects of Pluto.
> Astrology - Cause and Effect ,Synchronicity,or both
Astrology creates a map for us. If we decide to pick up the map and
figure out where we want to go, great. If not, then life will just
happen regardless. It is not fate/destiny. It is merely a road map of
the challenges and obstacles that will pop up in our lives. It is still
our decision whether to ignore the road map.
> Coordinate System - Geocentric or Heliocentric
Geo, but helio is worth looking at.
> Which Astrology system to use - Regular Mainstream Astrology,
> Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,Vedic Astrology,Magi Astrology,Galactic
> Astrology,Heliocentric Astrology, Asteroid Astrology,Mayan
> Astrology,Aztec Astrology,Chinese Astrology, Sidereal Western
> Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,Evolutionary Astrology,Shamanic
> Astrology
Uh, all are worth studying. I personally prefer reading both western
style "psychological" charts against sidereal and medieval charts.
> Fixed Star Methods - parans like Bernadette Brady uses or projected
> ecliptic longitude positions like Diana Rosenberg uses
Parans a la Bernadette Brady.
> Sunsign matching - whether it works or not
Nope. Its not unsound, but it does not work anywhere near consistently.
Am I defined merely by my sun sign (Virgo)? If you think my house is
neat and organized, you're way off. If you think I keep everything
squeaky clean, apparently you haven't seen my desk or my car.
> Which sign Pluto should rule - Aries or Scorpio
If forced to render an opinion, I'd say Scorpio. However, dwarves don't
get rulership.
> Should Chiron rule Virgo
No. No. No. No. No. Chiron is not a planet.
> Which object rules Virgo:
Mercury. Always has. Always will.
> Which object rules Libra:
Venus
> Zodiac Signs - whether to use them or not....Uranian Astrologers don't
> focus on zodiac signs
Yes.
> Houses - whether to use them or not.....e.g. Cosmobiology doesn't
> included houses
Yes.
> minor aspects - whether to use them or not
Yes, but at your discretion.
> Relationship Charts - Composite or Davison
Composite.
> Zodiac systems - Sidereal,Tropical, or the actual constellations
Tropical.
> Geocentric or Heliocentric
Objection. Asked & answered,
> the use of declinations - yes or no
If it floats your boat.
> The use of nodes of objects other than the Moon - yes or no
If it floats your boat.
> If using nodes of other objects - Heliocentric or Geocentric
Whatever floats your boat.
> Which Nodes - Mean or True
Mean
> Which Black Moon Lilith - Mean or True
Mean
> Eris,Pluto,and Ceres - do we make them equal in Astrology as they are
> in Astronomy?
Yes.
> What points are useful,relevant in the chart
See prior answers.
> Whether homosexuality can be indicated by the chart,and what are the
> indicators
Maybe. But this would probably be determined through a reading of the
prenatal epoch.
> Learning disability indicators:
Try genetic testing first.
> Intelligence indicators:
Try an IQ test.
> Conjunctions,oppositions,squares,semisquares,sesquiquadrates - are
> they actually stressful,challenging OR do they have to do with
> concrete events which is the case in Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology
Could go either way.
Todd Carnes
news:oPNzj.11967$6R.4420@trnddc04...
> ast...@yahoo.com wrote:
[snip]
>> What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
>
> Define "true love." (If you have a narcissist, do you attempt synastry on
> 2 identical copies of his birth chart?)
Good example. I may have to steal that one from ya some day. :)
Todd
Jyeshta
>Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
>astrologers are:
>
>
>House systems---which is the best (there are about 20)
For horary, Regiomontanus. For natal, geez, take your pick...
>Orbs allowed for aspects (from 0 to up to 17 degrees)
The ones given by William Lilly in _Christian_Astrology_.
>What planets (and/or asteroids) are vital for chart interpretation
The big 7, and I still won't ignore Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto,
because they still certainly pack a punch (during yesterday's
partile Mars Pluto opp, someone set off a bomb in Times Square -
I'd say there was a Mars Pluto flavor there...).
Asteroids, yuck! Been there, done that.
>Midpoints---whether or not to use them;
Yes! And the Arabic Parts and Hellenistic Lots, as Thoth agrees.
>What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
None that I've been able to find. Happily married or partnered
couples can have quite challenging synastry, and harmonious
synastry can have two people fidgeting on the first date, bored
to tears.
>What makes a person a jerk or a nerd, astrologically speaking;
That is a secret. :-)
>Which aspects are required for optimial chart interpretation;
The Ptolemaic, and the quincunx. Some of the minor aspects are
useful, too, especially semi-square and sesquiquadrate.
But even the aspects are not the whole story.
>Hypothetical planets (there are lots out there--maybe);
Sure, if you want to. When I studied and practiced Uranian
astrology, I found them quite fascinating, and still do.
>Whether calculated chart interpretations have "soul"
Never.
>What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
No one knows.
>When will the Age of Aquarius begin, exactly
We're in the interstitial phase between the great Ages. It lasts
about 500 years (IMO), and probably began around the time of the
"American" and French Revolutions, and the so-called "Age of
Enlightenment", not to mention the start of the Industrial Age.
Aquarius is all about conformity and the primacy of science over
the arts or self-expression (Aquarius ruled by Saturn). I don't
plan to reincarnate on Earth at least until the next Age of Leo.
:-)
>Astrology - Cause and Effect ,Synchronicity,or both
Both, and entirely fated.
>Coordinate System - Geocentric or Heliocentric
Geo. We don't live on the Sun.
>Which Astrology system to use - Regular Mainstream Astrology,
Useful up to a point.
>Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,
Uranian - fascinating but extremely complex.
>Vedic Astrology,
Excellent for those who do it well.
>Magi Astrology,
Garbage.
>Galactic Astrology,
I have never heard of that. Some other new fad?
>Heliocentric Astrology,
We don't live on the Sun.
>Asteroid Astrology,
Yuck!
>Mayan Astrology,
Is there a cohesive body of knowledge connected to it?
>Aztec Astrology,
See above.
>Chinese Astrology,
Fine for those who do it well.
>Sidereal Western Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,
Been there, done that - nixed.
>Evolutionary Astrology,
Only if you want to be someone's disciple.
>Shamanic Astrology
Any cohesive body of knowledge connected to that?
>Fixed Star Methods - parans like Bernadette Brady uses or projected
>ecliptic longitude positions like Diana Rosenberg uses
Both.
>Sunsign matching - whether it works or not
No.
>Which sign Pluto should rule - Aries or Scorpio
None. Mars rules them both. Always has, always will.
>Should Chiron rule Virgo
Never. Mercury rules Virgo. Always has, always will. (Am I
stealing from Thoth? ;-)
>Which object rules Virgo:
Mercury!
>Which object rules Libra:
Venus! (And sometimes.... get ready...., Mars.)
>Zodiac Signs - whether to use them or not....
Yes. Unless you practice:
>Uranian Astrologers don't focus on zodiac signs
Very true. They just use 6 different house systems with a Cancer
Rising dial to delineate a natal... (by the way, this is
fascinating because the ancient Thema Mundie chart is also Cancer
Rising).
>Houses - whether to use them or not.....
Absolutement! Unless you practice:
>e.g. Cosmobiology doesn't included houses
>
>minor aspects - whether to use them or not
As said above already.
>Relationship Charts - Composite or Davison
Davison, Davison, and... Davison! :-)
>Zodiac systems - Sidereal,Tropical, or the actual constellations
Depends on what sort of astrology one is practicing. There is a
Hellenistic method which requires Sidereal Zodiac and Equal sign
houses. Jyotish, obviously Sidereal.
Any Tropical method: guess!
>Geocentric or Heliocentric
We do not live on the Sun!
>the use of declinations - yes or no
Yeppers.
>The use of nodes of objects other than the Moon - yes or no
Depends on method.
>If using nodes of other objects - Heliocentric or Geocentric
Depends on method.
>Which Nodes - Mean or True
Mean (because either one will bitch-slap you! :-)
>Which Black Moon Lilith - Mean or True
I don't use it.
>Eris,Pluto,and Ceres - do we make them equal in Astrology as they are
>in Astronomy?
Yes, except for Pluto, until it loses its edge (if ever).
>What points are useful,relevant in the chart
Too many to list.
>Whether homosexuality can be indicated by the chart,and what are the
>indicators
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And I won't tell you.
>Learning disability indicators:
Probably, in medieval, but I haven't gotten far yet in my
Medieval studies.
>Intelligence indicators:
None. Like gender, I don't think this can be seen in a chart
(although perhaps I just haven't come across it yet).
>Conjunctions,oppositions,squares,semisquares,sesquiquadrates - are
>they actually stressful,challenging OR do they have to do with
>concrete events which is the case in Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology
Both.
Heavens - that was the longest survey I've seen in quite awhile.
chom...@gmail.com
May I ask you about the orbs? I have Venus at 5 degrees Cancer and
Neptune at 11 Degrees Scorpio. Would you consider that a trine, or no?
Venus has Lilly gives Venus a 3.5 to 4 moiety. But is there a moiety
for Neptune?
Thanks!
On Mar 7, 12:13 pm, Jyeshta <whate...@twixtntween.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 07:21:05 -0600, "asty...@yahoo.com"
Jyeshta
On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 12:07:11 -0600, chom...@gmail.com wrote:
>May I ask you about the orbs? I have Venus at 5 degrees Cancer and
>Neptune at 11 Degrees Scorpio. Would you consider that a trine, or no?
>Venus has Lilly gives Venus a 3.5 to 4 moiety. But is there a moiety
>for Neptune?
:-) Neptune wasn't around in Lilly's day, and since it casts no
light, it would probably be considered a "Fixed Star-Like
Object." In that case, the fixed stars, which DO cast light,
well, I'm uncertain what orbs are given to them but probably no
more than 1 degree.
With my modern astrological brain, I'd say yes, you have a Venus
Neptune trine.
>Thanks!
Welcome.
G.
Jyeshta
>May I ask you about the orbs? I have Venus at 5 degrees Cancer and
>Neptune at 11 Degrees Scorpio. Would you consider that a trine, or no?
>Venus has Lilly gives Venus a 3.5 to 4 moiety. But is there a moiety
>for Neptune?
:-) Neptune wasn't around in Lilly's day, and since it casts no
light, it would probably be considered a "Fixed Star-Like
Object." In that case, the fixed stars, which DO cast light,
well, I'm uncertain what orbs are given to them but probably no
more than 1 degree.
With my modern astrological brain, I'd say yes, you have a Venus
Neptune trine.
>Thanks!
Welcome.
G.
>On Mar 7, 12:13 pm, Jyeshta <whate...@twixtntween.com> wrote:
Ray Murphy
RM: Ideally, what we need for questions like this is a giant
(alterable) online questionnaire which is filled in randomly according
to what astrologers feel confident about at any given time. It
wouldn't prove much but it would show how much astrologers are
influenced by the movers + shakers in their country or region,
including those who keep incessantly feeding us with 'flavour of the
month' stuff without presenting a shred of evidence to back any of it
up.
Such a questionnaire, if it was filled in by thousands of astrologers
around the world, would also show us which parts of astrology were
strongly supported or ignored - irrespective of what the text books
have said, and that would guide us to the best areas of research -
either the number crunching type or the informal type.
To me it seems rather pointless, or even amusing, for astrologers to
argue about things in our art that were never meant to be anything
more than a language to put us on the same page. It's a different
story if we're dealing with those parts of astrology that are believed
to be a REAL part of the cycles of nature - which astrologers have
minimally understood for centuries.
Ray
Ray Murphy
> Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
> astrologers are:
>
> House systems---which is the best (there are about 20)
RM: Any of them are ok. We only know that SOME sort of house system
seems to be working.
> Orbs allowed for aspects (from 0 to up to 17 degrees)
RM: It depends on the aspects and whether they are for natal,
transits, progressions etc. etc. but I'd go with the *average* of
astrologers' opinions based on experience.
> What planets (and/or asteroids) are vital for chart interpretation
RM: It depends on what one wants to believe.
> Midpoints---whether or not to use them;
RM: Direct midpoints seem to be supported ny virtually everyone who's
ever looked at them
> What is an absolute indicator of "true love" between two charts;
RM: Huh?
> What makes a person a jerk or a nerd, astrologically speaking;
RM: The observer decides for him/herself, but it has no bearing on a
chart or reality.
> Which aspects are required for optimial chart interpretation;
RM: No one knows. If anyone can read a chart better than I can, I'll
have whatever they're having.
> Hypothetical planets (there are lots out there--maybe);
RM: Good for very fine tuning.
> Whether calculated chart interpretations have "soul"
RM: ??
> What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
RM: Non-living entitities don't really have charts. There are only
event cahrts for key events in countries. The sooner we can see that
teh sooner we'll see fitting transits to them. Astrology is really
for
living species which are an integral part of the cycles of nature.
> When will the Age of Aquarius begin, exactly
RM: That's a bit like asking when will the "real" day begin -- at the
International dateline or some other arbitrary point.
> Astrology - Cause and Effect ,Synchronicity,or both
RM: Synchronicity (like planetary movement) but ultimately with a
very
low-level "cause" of a type we could never comprehend.
> Coordinate System - Geocentric or Heliocentric
RM: Geo works a lot better for transits and Helio doesn't, so I'd
keep using Geo for everything for now, but stil keep looking at Helio
in case something turns up.
> Which Astrology system to use - Regular Mainstream Astrology,
RM: Twentieth century astrology for me - sans the psycho-babble.
> Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,
RM: Good stuff
Vedic Astrology,
RM: Good.
Magi Astrology
RM: Are you serious?
> Galactic Astrology
RM: No comment.
> ,Heliocentric Astrology,
RM: For oddball stuff maybe, but not regular astrology.
>Asteroid Astrology,
RM: nameology -- no, I couldn't come at that, nor would I ever call
it
astrology.
>Mayan Astrology,
RM: ??
>Aztec Astrology,
RM: ??
>Chinese Astrology,
RM: Might be ok (the real Chinese astrology)
> Sidereal Western
> Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,
RM: Only for progressions - nothing else.
>Evolutionary Astrology,
RM: No comment
>Shamanic
> Astrology
RM Huh?
> Fixed Star Methods - parans like Bernadette Brady uses or projected
> ecliptic longitude positions like Diana Rosenberg uses
RM: No, if astrologers were using declination tables that grew (up
to)
400 years out of whack and still thought stars worked, something was
awfully wrong -- and then to "re-invent" it all over again from a
different perspective altogether (with the same supposed/borrowed
meanings) seems a bit much.
> Sunsign matching - whether it works or not
RM: The basic compatibility is obvious.
> Which sign Pluto should rule - Aries or Scorpio
RM: The actual testing indicates Scorpio.
> Should Chiron rule Virgo
RM: I'd dask should it be used at all?.
> Which object rules Virgo:
RM: Whatever 20th century astrologers said.
>
> Which object rules Libra:
RM: Venus
>
> Zodiac Signs - whether to use them or not....Uranian Astrologers
> don't focus on zodiac signs
RM: Of course we should use them. We only need to look to see if they
work (from the Tropical or Vedic perspectives).
> Houses - whether to use them or not.....e.g. Cosmobiology doesn't
> included houses
RM: At least houses 12/1 -- 3/4 -- 6/6 -- 9/10
> minor aspects - whether to use them or not
RM: I would when it feels right.
> Relationship Charts - Composite or Davison
RM: No, straight synastry reveals much more.
> Zodiac systems - Sidereal,Tropical, or the actual constellations
RM: Both sidereal + tropical but constellations are not a part of
astrology - which uses *signs* of the zodiac..
>
> the use of declinations - yes or no
RM: Sparingly.
> The use of nodes of objects other than the Moon - yes or no
RM: No.
> If using nodes of other objects - Heliocentric or Geocentric
RM: ----
> Which Nodes - Mean or True
RM: Either.
> Which Black Moon Lilith - Mean or True
RM: None of them or any of the derivatives.
> Eris,Pluto,and Ceres - do we make them equal in Astrology as they
> are in Astronomy?
RM: Pluto not an issue. Astrology and astronomy are different
subjects, and astrology has dictated that Pluto is a planet. The
other two don't even rate as anything in astrology until enough
credible astrologers say so.
> What points are useful, relevant in the chart
>
> Whether homosexuality can be indicated by the chart,and what are the
> indicators
RM: No, it cannot be.
> Learning disability indicators:
RM: I'd say yes, although some learning disability is merely a dopey
misunderstanding by society of alternative ways of thinking and
perceiving things.
> Intelligence indicators:
RM: I'd say yes, but it's really more about the ability to express
things in ways that appeal to the general populace, rather than
actual
intelligence - except in rare cases.
> Conjunctions,oppositions,squares,semisquares,sesquiquadrates - are
> they actually stressful,challenging OR do they have to do with
> concrete events which is the case in Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology
RM: No, they are all a bit over-rated, but are a useful guide.
Ray
CFA
>RM: Ideally, what we need for questions like this is a giant
>(alterable) online questionnaire which is filled in randomly according
>to what astrologers feel confident about at any given time. It
>wouldn't prove much but it would show how much astrologers are
>influenced by the movers + shakers in their country or region,
>including those who keep incessantly feeding us with 'flavour of the
>month' stuff without presenting a shred of evidence to back any of it
>up.
That would be a most excellent addition to your site :-)
>Such a questionnaire, if it was filled in by thousands of astrologers
>around the world, would also show us which parts of astrology were
>strongly supported or ignored - irrespective of what the text books
>have said, and that would guide us to the best areas of research -
>either the number crunching type or the informal type.
I'd be more interested in the westerners now, especially in connection
with your next paragraph.
>To me it seems rather pointless, or even amusing, for astrologers to
>argue about things in our art that were never meant to be anything
>more than a language to put us on the same page. It's a different
>story if we're dealing with those parts of astrology that are believed
>to be a REAL part of the cycles of nature - which astrologers have
>minimally understood for centuries.
A list would be nice. Call it a starting point :-)
>Ray
Ken
--
cfa at alt dot net
Ray Murphy
> Ray Murphy wrote:
> >RM: Ideally, what we need for questions like this is a giant
> >(alterable) online questionnaire which is filled in randomly according
> >to what astrologers feel confident about at any given time. It
> >wouldn't prove much but it would show how much astrologers are
> >influenced by the movers + shakers in their country or region,
> >including those who keep incessantly feeding us with 'flavour of the
> >month' stuff without presenting a shred of evidence to back any of it
> >up.
>
> That would be a most excellent addition to your site :-)
RM: I've been talking about *someone* doing it since 2002, but
everyone told me how problematic it was to do such a thing online due
to security risks and flakey database systems. It's probably a bit
easier now, but my alternative idea is to make the questionnaire
program OFFLINE in the form of a program with the same interface. If
we had that, then when a questionnaire was completed a tiny datafile
with all the answers could be generated which looked like this:
1,3,14.22,1,1,1,0,44,56,0,1,0,22,21,4,44,99,216 and it could be
emailed and then pasted into a master file for (regular) analysis.
I would imagine that such a project would go through lots of stages as
astrologers kept suggesting more categories for inclusion.
> >Such a questionnaire, if it was filled in by thousands of astrologers
> >around the world, would also show us which parts of astrology were
> >strongly supported or ignored - irrespective of what the text books
> >have said, and that would guide us to the best areas of research -
> >either the number crunching type or the informal type.
>
> I'd be more interested in the westerners now, especially in connection
> with your next paragraph.
>
> >To me it seems rather pointless, or even amusing, for astrologers to
> >argue about things in our art that were never meant to be anything
> >more than a language to put us on the same page. It's a different
> >story if we're dealing with those parts of astrology that are believed
> >to be a REAL part of the cycles of nature - which astrologers have
> >minimally understood for centuries.
>
> A list would be nice. Call it a starting point :-)
RM: Ok, let's brainstorm for questions and I'll make a mini prototype
questionnaire program in the next few days to see how the idea works.
If we get something reasonable, the concept and questions could be
copied to a suitable internet programming language so that any busy
website could alter it and use it to gather data online.
> Ken
Ray
CFA
>On Apr 25, 1:24 pm, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>> Ray Murphy wrote:
>> >RM: Ideally, what we need for questions like this is a giant
>> >(alterable) online questionnaire which is filled in randomly according
>> >to what astrologers feel confident about at any given time. It
>> >wouldn't prove much but it would show how much astrologers are
>> >influenced by the movers + shakers in their country or region,
>> >including those who keep incessantly feeding us with 'flavour of the
>> >month' stuff without presenting a shred of evidence to back any of it
>> >up.
>>
>> That would be a most excellent addition to your site :-)
>
>RM: I've been talking about *someone* doing it since 2002, but
>everyone told me how problematic it was to do such a thing online due
>to security risks and flakey database systems. It's probably a bit
>easier now, but my alternative idea is to make the questionnaire
>program OFFLINE in the form of a program with the same interface. If
>we had that, then when a questionnaire was completed a tiny datafile
>with all the answers could be generated which looked like this:
>1,3,14.22,1,1,1,0,44,56,0,1,0,22,21,4,44,99,216 and it could be
>emailed and then pasted into a master file for (regular) analysis.
>
>I would imagine that such a project would go through lots of stages as
>astrologers kept suggesting more categories for inclusion.
Sounds good to me.
>> >Such a questionnaire, if it was filled in by thousands of astrologers
>> >around the world, would also show us which parts of astrology were
>> >strongly supported or ignored - irrespective of what the text books
>> >have said, and that would guide us to the best areas of research -
>> >either the number crunching type or the informal type.
>>
>> I'd be more interested in the westerners now, especially in connection
>> with your next paragraph.
>>
>> >To me it seems rather pointless, or even amusing, for astrologers to
>> >argue about things in our art that were never meant to be anything
>> >more than a language to put us on the same page. It's a different
>> >story if we're dealing with those parts of astrology that are believed
>> >to be a REAL part of the cycles of nature - which astrologers have
>> >minimally understood for centuries.
>>
>> A list would be nice. Call it a starting point :-)
>
>RM: Ok, let's brainstorm for questions and I'll make a mini prototype
>questionnaire program in the next few days to see how the idea works.
>If we get something reasonable, the concept and questions could be
>copied to a suitable internet programming language so that any busy
>website could alter it and use it to gather data online.
Excellent.
Marty
> On Feb 24, 10:21 pm, "asty...@yahoo.com" <asty...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
> > astrologers are:
>
> > What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
>
> RM: Non-living entitities don't really have charts. There are only
> event cahrts for key events in countries. The sooner we can see that
> teh sooner we'll see fitting transits to them. Astrology is really
> for
> living species which are an integral part of the cycles of nature.
>
When is something "alive" and when is it not. It's not that clear cut
and even arbitrary.
Amoeba seem to be alive, but are viruses alive?. Viruses are more like
automatons rather but seem to have a "purpose" - replication. But so
does a bush fire! So is a bush fire "alive" and have a chart? It
certainly can play a part in the cycle of nature! DNA is at the core
of living things that determine how you and I turn out and things we
might end up doing - like astrology. But DNA is not a living thing in
itself (or is it?). It's a well defined molecule. What about self
determining robots and artificial intelligence which can mesh into the
"cycle of life"? Have they too no astrology?
Attempting to define when something is alive or not alive is like
asking where does outer space begin. By international agreement it is
100km MSL. But there is no border up there. The earth's atmosphere
just gradually thins indefinitely.
Martin
>
> >Mayan Astrology,
>
> RM: ??
>
> >Aztec Astrology,
>
> RM: ??
>
> >Chinese Astrology,
>
> RM: Might be ok (the real Chinese astrology)
>
> > Sidereal Western
> > Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,
>
> RM: Only for progressions - nothing else.
>
> >Evolutionary Astrology,
>
> RM: No comment
>
> >Shamanic
> > Astrology
>
> RM Huh?
>
I think we should make a distinction between
Sky omens
Sky lore
Horoscopic astrology
Geocosmic effects
Horoscopic astrology is what everybody here is on about - as from
ancient Mesopotamian through Hellenistic and modern European
tradition. Casting a chart for a moment depicting the planets in the
tropical or other zodiac.
Mayan and Aztec "astrology" was more like sky omens while aboriginal
"astronomy" was sky lore, or more specifically "Sky Law" (Dreaming).
These cultures did not appear to practice horoscopic astrology as we
know it. BTW these culture saw as *everything* being alive to some
degree - unlike the more modern Western view.
Even horoscopic astrology emerged from a world view (Aristotle) that
treated everything as alive in some sense which is why charts are cast
for living and non living things. Eg motor vehicles, other machines,
even places (cities and wilderness locations) seem to have
"personality" and "character".
Geocosmic effects are the ones science investigates, celestial
phenomena such as lunar cycles, solar wind, cosmic rays and their
effects on the magnetosphere of earth and any subsequent effect on
earth whether living or inanimate. Some of these observed phenomena
may have contributed to the development of early horoscopic astrology.
Martin
Ray Murphy
> Ken
RM: Ok, the desktop questionnaire that generates data files is ready
to go, so we had better all get a wriggle on with questions to put in
it. Currently it has only about 100 questions/selections and they can
be answered in under 2 minutes, so another 500 selections/questions
about anything to do with astrology would be nice.
I suppose the way to go from here is to email the tiny (80k) program
to a few posters so they can offer lots of suggestions for improvement
before the first beta version is posted on a website somewhere.
Ray
Ray Murphy
> On Apr 24, 12:28 am, Ray Murphy <ray...@chariot.net.au> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 24, 10:21 pm, "asty...@yahoo.com" <asty...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Topics that can cause controversy,debate,and fighting among
> > > astrologers are:
>
> > > What is the correct astrological chart for the United States;
>
> > RM: Non-living entitities don't really have charts. There are only
> > teh sooner we'll see fitting transits to them. Astrology is really
> > for living species which are an integral part of the cycles of nature.
>
> When is something "alive" and when is it not. It's not that clear cut
> and even arbitrary.
>
> Amoeba seem to be alive, but are viruses alive?. Viruses are more like
> automatons rather but seem to have a "purpose" - replication. But so
> does a bush fire! So is a bush fire "alive" and have a chart? It
> certainly can play a part in the cycle of nature!
RM: I'd imagine that for something to be "alive" it would need to have
these three things:
(a) Capable of being involved in a physical reproduction process, and
(b) Capable of being detected by a scientific method, and
(b) Capable of responding to outside stimulus.
>DNA is at the core
> of living things that determine how you and I turn out and things we
> might end up doing - like astrology. But DNA is not a living thing in
> itself (or is it?). It's a well defined molecule.
RM: I haven't looked on the net regarding any of this, but if I use my
own criteria which I just dreamt up (above) then DNA is "alive".
> What about self
> determining robots and artificial intelligence which can mesh into the
> "cycle of life"? Have they too no astrology?
RM: I'd say no for three reasons - (1) Because like all inventions,
they don't have a specific starting (or birth) date and time. Those
things go through many, many stages which make it impossible to decide
when they first "began". Sometimes it could take years or even decades
and (2) Because the above two contrivances are only machines (like my
'self determining' PC which runs for 40 minutes before "deciding" to
stop and display the "finished" sign. The above two things are also
mis-named because the humans like theatrical stuff like that and (3)
Because they don't fit my earlier criteria.
They would certainly have a series of Event charts, but even then, no
one or thing or event actually HAS a chart -- we are only pretending
that this is the case for convenience in comprehension. We're actually
dealing with Time/Space charts that are universal in nature but are
claiming them as "ours" and we also (erroneously) treat those charts
as if they were the "beginning" of something important in the history
of the universe and they "start" when we start. In reality our birth
charts (and indeed all charts) are no more "ours" than our birth date
is ours. If we accept that - or even look at it we will begin to see
more clearly how our birth charts are also transits to previous
charts. We can also see how people's charts don't die when they do -
they keep on going because they are actually universal "event charts".
> Attempting to define when something is alive or not alive is like
> asking where does outer space begin. By international agreement it is
> 100km MSL. But there is no border up there. The earth's atmosphere
> just gradually thins indefinitely.
RM: Once again it's only a convenient theatrical term which deceives
us. If "outer space" was defined more comprehensibly, it would be
defined in a meaningful way like "beyond the zero oxygen limit at x-
temperature" (or whatever it really is).
> > >Mayan Astrology,
>
> > RM: ??
>
> > >Aztec Astrology,
>
> > RM: ??
>
> > >Chinese Astrology,
>
> > RM: Might be ok (the real Chinese astrology)
>
> > > Sidereal Western
> > > Astrology based on Cyril Fagan,
>
> > RM: Only for progressions - nothing else.
>
> > >Evolutionary Astrology,
>
> > RM: No comment
>
> > >Shamanic
> > > Astrology
>
> > RM Huh?
>
> I think we should make a distinction between
> Sky omens
> Sky lore
> Horoscopic astrology
> Geocosmic effects
RM: Once again -- people applying incorrect terms - often for the sake
of brevity or simplicity.
> Horoscopic astrology is what everybody here is on about - as from
> ancient Mesopotamian through Hellenistic and modern European
> tradition. Casting a chart for a moment depicting the planets in the
> tropical or other zodiac.
RM: Good term - horoscopic astrology.That's one reason why I never
refer to any of my "Mean Sun-- Mean Earth" stuff as astrology because
it isn't connected to horoscopes.Strictly speaking, the Sun has got
nothing to do with it -- it's really "Mean earth in orbit and Mean
earth on axis".
> Mayan and Aztec "astrology" was more like sky omens while aboriginal
> "astronomy" was sky lore, or more specifically "Sky Law" (Dreaming).
> These cultures did not appear to practice horoscopic astrology as we
> know it. BTW these culture saw as *everything* being alive to some
> degree - unlike the more modern Western view.
RM: Well I touched the metal body of my amplifier the other day and it
felt "alive" too. Strangely a safety switch (which I immediately
fitted) is still not activating.
> Even horoscopic astrology emerged from a world view (Aristotle) that
> treated everything as alive in some sense which is why charts are cast
> for living and non living things. Eg motor vehicles, other machines,
> even places (cities and wilderness locations) seem to have
> "personality" and "character".
RM: Yes, people seem to be able to comprehend things more easily if we
use artificial and theatrical terms. I suppose it's a bit like
"folders" on PC desktops -- I'm sure there are people around who
actually believe that there REALLY is stuff inside their folders
because they have witnessed it on numerous occasions. I'm sure that
some could even show us JPEGs to "prove" that there are documents
inside folders.
Talking about being realistic -- Juan Revilla made me very
uncomfortable on one of the groups when he tried to get me to look at
some things in astrology from a purely realistic point of view.
Normally I find his high faluting style of writing nothing more than a
word-salad, but I'm sure he has some good points to make when it comes
to looking at astrology more realistically.
> Geocosmic effects are the ones science investigates, celestial
> phenomena such as lunar cycles, solar wind, cosmic rays and their
> effects on the magnetosphere of earth and any subsequent effect on
> earth whether living or inanimate. Some of these observed phenomena
> may have contributed to the development of early horoscopic astrology.
RM: Well some of that was a part of astrology which really WAS
"predicting".
> Martin
Ray
Apollia
This sounds like something I hopefully wouldn't find hard to make in
PHP/MySQL, at least if I could restrain myself from making it way too
elaborate - but, if I were simply porting over an existing program, I
would probably be able to avoid that.
It would be possible to make something with "essay" questions, and
questions with multiple possible answers via the use of checkboxes,
etc. - but then the datafiles generated probably wouldn't be able to
be as compact as your example.
> > Excellent.
>
> > Ken
>
> RM: Ok, the desktop questionnaire that generates data files is ready
> to go, so we had better all get a wriggle on with questions to put in
> it. Currently it has only about 100 questions/selections and they can
> be answered in under 2 minutes, so another 500 selections/questions
> about anything to do with astrology would be nice.
>
> I suppose the way to go from here is to email the tiny (80k) program
> to a few posters so they can offer lots of suggestions for improvement
> before the first beta version is posted on a website somewhere.
>
> Ray
I'm willing to try it out. Seeing what kinds of questions are there
already will also probably help give me ideas for more.
----
Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
Ray Murphy
RM: Talking about essay questions and wandering off-topic here -- that
reminds me of the funniest book I've ever seen. It was a multiple
choice book containing 1,000 sample questions + answers for a Ham
radio operators licence. I never DID ask anyone if it was *meant* to
be hilarious or whether some of the examination papers in previous
years had contained such a weird array of written answers.
Yes, checkboxes and listboxes are the way to go. That's how I've
rigged up this questionnaire. At the moment the whole thing only
occupies 1/2 of a monitor view.
[....]
>
> > RM: Ok, the desktop questionnaire that generates data files is ready
> > to go, so we had better all get a wriggle on with questions to put in
> > it. Currently it has only about 100 questions/selections and they can
> > be answered in under 2 minutes, so another 500 selections/questions
> > about anything to do with astrology would be nice.
>
> > I suppose the way to go from here is to email the tiny (80k) program
> > to a few posters so they can offer lots of suggestions for improvement
> > before the first beta version is posted on a website somewhere.
> I'm willing to try it out. Seeing what kinds of questions are there
> already will also probably help give me ideas for more.
RM: Ok, at the moment it's easiest for me to send you a zipped .exe
file without any installation gear attached. Just drop it on your PC
and throw it in the trash when finished. It doesn't create any other
files apart from the text file containing the several csv lines, and
it doesn't contain any fancy Microsoft add-ons either.
If you find that it's a piece of cake to install and delete it might
be the way to go for anyone who uses it. It would be much smaller that
way.
I'll send it later today or tomorrow. What email address will I use?
>
> Apollia My website:http://www.astroblahhh.com/
Ray
Apollia
> On Apr 26, 10:15 pm, Apollia <xerxes...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 26, 7:45 am, Ray Murphy <ray...@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> > > On Apr 25, 4:01 pm, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
> > > > Ray Murphy wrote:
> > > > >On Apr 25, 1:24 pm, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
> > > > >> Ray Murphy wrote:
[...]
> RM: Talking about essay questions and wandering off-topic here -- that
> reminds me of the funniest book I've ever seen. It was a multiple
> choice book containing 1,000 sample questions + answers for a Ham
> radio operators licence. I never DID ask anyone if it was *meant* to
> be hilarious or whether some of the examination papers in previous
> years had contained such a weird array of written answers.
:-)
> Yes, checkboxes and listboxes are the way to go. That's how I've
> rigged up this questionnaire. At the moment the whole thing only
> occupies 1/2 of a monitor view.
>
> [....]
>
> > > RM: Ok, the desktop questionnaire that generates data files is ready
> > > to go, so we had better all get a wriggle on with questions to put in
> > > it. Currently it has only about 100 questions/selections and they can
> > > be answered in under 2 minutes, so another 500 selections/questions
> > > about anything to do with astrology would be nice.
>
> > > I suppose the way to go from here is to email the tiny (80k) program
> > > to a few posters so they can offer lots of suggestions for improvement
> > > before the first beta version is posted on a website somewhere.
> > I'm willing to try it out. Seeing what kinds of questions are there
> > already will also probably help give me ideas for more.
>
> RM: Ok, at the moment it's easiest for me to send you a zipped .exe
> file without any installation gear attached. Just drop it on your PC
> and throw it in the trash when finished. It doesn't create any other
> files apart from the text file containing the several csv lines, and
> it doesn't contain any fancy Microsoft add-ons either.
OK, that sounds easy enough.
> If you find that it's a piece of cake to install and delete it might
> be the way to go for anyone who uses it. It would be much smaller that
> way.
>
> I'll send it later today or tomorrow. What email address will I use?
xerx...@aol.com is fine.
I hope this message posts successfully, I've been having trouble with
Google Groups giving me errors...
----
Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)