Ayanamsa again
Axel Harvey
myself a copy if only for the millennium value. Meanwhile...
My CCRS and several other softwares owned by my friends, both western
and Vedic, all give 23°51'10" ± 1" as the nirayana ("Lahiri") ayanamsa
for J2000.
But my old 1975 copy of the Indian provides formulas which come to
23°51'25" approximately.
There is an old-fashioned formula based on tropical years and the
beginning of Besselian 1900 which comes to 23°51'24".51 for J2000.
There is a modern formula based on Julian centuries and Julian day
2415020 which comes to 23°51'25".636 for J2000.
Why the quarter-minute discrepancy between the softwares and the
ephemeris which was originally the official broadcaster of "Lahiri"?
I have a personal interest in this, as CCRS puts my nirayana Mars at
0° 0'15" Aries.
gygyuu
>>
>My CCRS and several other softwares owned by my friends, both western
>and Vedic, all give 23°51'10" ± 1" as the nirayana ("Lahiri") ayanamsa
>for J2000.
>
>But my old 1975 copy of the Indian provides formulas which come to
>23°51'25" approximately.
>
>There is an old-fashioned formula based on tropical years and the
>beginning of Besselian 1900 which comes to 23°51'24".51 for J2000.
>
>There is a modern formula based on Julian centuries and Julian day
>2415020 which comes to 23°51'25".636 for J2000.
>
>0° 0'15" Aries.
>
>
Hi Axel,
I am curious about the use of the ayanamsa. I know that it is used to
convert the tropical zodiac to the sidereal values.
My reasoning is that adding a constant to the chart significators does not
alter their relationships to each other.
Jupiter would still be conjunct Saturn tropically or sidereally; the only
thing that does change is the sign of the zodiac.
I could understand your interest in this matter since it seems to indicate
that your Mars has entered a new sign, unless the CCRS value is wrong.
What is a "nirayana"? I looked in my two Indian texts: "Surya Siddanta" and
Braha's "Ancient Hindu Astrology"-- couldn't find a mention there or in
Firebrace/Fagan, or the Astrodienst electronic dictionary.
Grant
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Axel Harvey
First, I had written
> >
> >I have a personal interest in this, as CCRS puts my nirayana Mars at
> >0° 0'15" Aries.
And on re-checking I see it is at 0° 0' 5".
> I am curious about the use of the ayanamsa. I know that it is used to
> convert the tropical zodiac to the sidereal values.
>
> My reasoning is that adding a constant to the chart significators does not
> alter their relationships to each other.
> Jupiter would still be conjunct Saturn tropically or sidereally; the only
> thing that does change is the sign of the zodiac.
Yes, the signs of all the factors change. If you use the rulers of
house cusps like most of us that will change relationships within the
chart dramatically, even though none of the aspects change. BTW I am
not a siderealist--my problem is that I was editing somebody's article
and needed to check the exact value. The remark about my Mars was meant
light-heartedly.
> I could understand your interest in this matter since it seems to indicate
> that your Mars has entered a new sign, unless the CCRS value is wrong.
Strictly speaking there is no "wrong" value if you're within the
ballpark, i.e. if your sidereal sign corresponds roughly to the
constellation of the same name, while in that large mansion there are
many smaller rooms where people use their own ayanamsas. In fact the
person I am editing uses an ayanamsa that is 2 or 3 degrees off the
usual ones, but he wanted to mention some official values for
comparison.
> What is a "nirayana"? I looked in my two Indian texts: "Surya Siddanta" and
> Braha's "Ancient Hindu Astrology"-- couldn't find a mention there or in
> Firebrace/Fagan, or the Astrodienst electronic dictionary.
"The", not "a". The nirayana Zodiac is the sidereal Zodiac. From _The_
_Indian_Ephemeris_and_Nautical_Almanac_ 1975 (now called _The_Indian_
_Astronomical_Ephemeris_), page 460:
For the calculation of rasis and naksatras of this section, a fixed
initial point on the ecliptic has been taken as the origin from
which the longitudes are measured for this purpose. The tropical
longitude of this initial point for March 21, 1956 is adopted as
23°15'0".0. The longitude of this initial point is known as
Ayanamsa in Indian astronomy and the value of ayanamsa is to be
subtracted from the tropical (or sayana) longitudes of celestial
objects to obtain the corresponding nirayana longitudes of
Indian astronomy.
Then it gives the formulas I mentioned earlier.
By the way, the definition given in the official Indian ephemeris is
*the* Lahiri definition. From a history of the ephemeris:
POSITIONAL ASTRONOMY IN INDIA
K.K. Chakrabarty*
[ ... ]
The late Professor Meghnad Saha with his foresight saw the
relevance and importance of positional astronomy in India. It was his
inspiration that led to the formation of a Nautical Almanac Unit,
under the aegis of the India Meteorological Department in Alipore,
Calcutta, on December 1, 1955.
Origin
The Planning Committee set up by the Government of India had
recommended in 1955 the preparation of an Astronomical Ephemeris and
Nautical Almanac for the development of astronomical and astrophysical
studies in India. The Calendar Reform Committee formed in 1952 under
the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research ( CSIR) of the
Government of India with the late Prof. M.N. Saha as chairman,
recommended the preparation of the Indian Ephemeris and Nautical
Almanac incorporating therein, along with the usual astronomical data,
the National Calendar of India (the Saka Calendar) with timings of
tithis (dates), nakshatras and yoga calculated with modern
astronomical formulae and also with festival dates. It was decided
that the work should be done by a special unit attached to a
scientific department of the Government of India. [ ... ]
The late Prof. Saha was aware of the works of the late N.C. Lahiri
in the field of astronomy and Calendar Reform. In 1952 he called
Lahiri to help him in the work of the Calendar Reform Committee as its
member-secretary. After completion of the Calendar Committee's work,
Lahiri was entrusted with the work of the Nautical Almanac Unit of the
India Meteorological Department as its first officer-in-charge. The
unit undertook the preparation of The Indian Ephemeris and Nautical
Almanac for 1958 which was the first issue published in March, 1957.
See www.pib.nic.in/feature/feyr99/fe0999/f2109991.htm .
So the oft-used word "Lahiri" refers to the work of N. C. Lahiri, while
"nirayana" is a more general Indian adjective referring to positions in
(one of several) sidereal systems. We should use "nirayana" if we want
to talk generally about the sidereal Zodiac with an Indian flavour;
"Lahiri" and "official nirayana" mean the same thing, *one* specific
sidereal system recommended by Indian scientific bureaucrats.
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006...@localhost.localdomain>,
Axel Harvey <a...@CAM.ORG> wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, gygyuu wrote:
>
<SNIP>
>Yes, the signs of all the factors change. If you use the rulers of
>house cusps like most of us that will change relationships within the
>chart dramatically, even though none of the aspects change. BTW I am
>not a siderealist--my problem is that I was editing somebody's article
>and needed to check the exact value. The remark about my Mars was meant
>light-heartedly.
REPLY
You had our hopes up for a day Axel, with your query about Ayanamsa's.
We were thinking that perhaps you could simplify Indian Astrology for us
(with a Western bent).
Ray Murphy
Alois Treindl
> I am curious about the use of the ayanamsa. I know that it is used to
> convert the tropical zodiac to the sidereal values.
>
> My reasoning is that adding a constant to the chart significators does not
> alter their relationships to each other.
> Jupiter would still be conjunct Saturn tropically or sidereally; the only
> thing that does change is the sign of the zodiac.
>
> I could understand your interest in this matter since it seems to indicate
> that your Mars has entered a new sign, unless the CCRS value is wrong.
>
> What is a "nirayana"? I looked in my two Indian texts: "Surya Siddanta" and
> Braha's "Ancient Hindu Astrology"-- couldn't find a mention there or in
> Firebrace/Fagan, or the Astrodienst electronic dictionary.
>
> Grant
You might be interested in chapter 2.7 of this document:
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm
--
|| Alois Treindl, Astrodienst AG, mailto:al...@astro.com
|| Zollikon/Zurich, Switzerland
|| Free astrological charts at http://www.astro.com/
|| SWISS EPHEMERIS Free Edition at http://www.astro.com/swisseph/
Axel Harvey
> You might be interested in chapter 2.7 of this document:
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm
Thank you for this, it is most enlightening.
Maybe the next trick ;> would be to transfer sidereal positions to
the invariable plane. You can't use the invariable plane for tropical
positions because it's impossible to decide where the equinoctial
points go--with sidereal astrology that problem vanishes.
Pankaj Dubey
Hi,
this is a sankrit word.
Ayan is the root word relating to precession of equinoxes.
Sa+ Ayana= Sayan where 'Sa' means 'with'
So tropical astrology uses precession hence is Sa+
Ayana.
'Nir' is a negative word meaning absence hence
Nirayana= absence or taking it out hence Nir+ayana
= astrology where you take away the precession of equinoxes = sidereal
astrology.
There are many ayanmsha used in India main one being Lahiri's there is also
Raman's Ayanamsha which is 1degree 27 minutes less than Lahiri.So,Axel's Mars
would be 1degree 27 min 15sec according to Raman's Ayanamsha.
The conflicting values are due to the allocation of the year to be considered
as Zero Ayanamsha.
Lahiri's ayanamsha is also called Chitra paksha Ayanamsha based on the
precession value of fixed star spica.
I have spoken to a few astrologers using various ayanamsha's and the feedback
that I got was that you should use one consistently irrespective of which one
it is!!!!!!!!!!!
Pankaj M.Dubey
gygyuu
>I have spoken to a few astrologers using various ayanamsha's and the
feedback
>that I got was that you should use one consistently irrespective of which
one
>it is!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanx for the feedback, Pankaj.
That last paragraph is cool; I hope that my ayanamsha of 0º would make me
accepted amongst your peers.
LOL,
Grant
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