Re: The Dark Knight release chart
Petrus
> Aquarius. So far I had assumed that I was the only one who had
Fascism is a manifestation of the two planets (Uranus and Saturn) both
combining to produce a particular form of political government. In the case
of fascism, it is the Saturnine half of the two which is more immediately
visible, with Uranus manifesting as technology used to support it, and in
the case of Communism, Uranus is the more visible of the two, with Saturnine
totalitarianism underlying it.
A political system which integrates these two in a positive sense would need
to be very different. I believe here that the writing/perspective of
Terrence McKenna is relevant, and this is also what such individuals as the
authors of the play "Hair" were referring to.
It would be a society which both integrated technology, (Uranus) but which
was also very deeply based on indigenous/shamanic principles. (positive
Saturn) Use of entheogens (Uranus) would be not only completely mainstream,
but would also be one of the foundational pillars of the system. These
substances would be used not only for contact with extraterrestrials
(Uranus) but also for developmental experiences as well. There would be a
very specific set of guidelines and customs (Saturn) regarding their use, in
order to prevent abuse.
Decentralisation would be another fundamental principle. Food would be
grown and produced literally on an individual basis, or by parents for their
children in the case of families. Individual self-responsibility (Saturn)
would be recognised and would be regarded very highly. Water would become
the fuel source in the same way that oil (Neptune) had been in Pisces, and
various outgrowths from hydrogen based technology would be used to
effectively repair the planet's environment and return it to a more original
state. (Saturn)
I'm not talking about perfection here. Even at its' most positive
manifestation, Aquarius, like any other sign, is not perfect. Of all the
signs, it is also by far the most strongly rejected. I have often thought
that it would be better, far better, for the majority of my fellow man if we
were able to simply have another 2,000 years of Pisces, and bypass Aquarius
altogether. Most of humanity will not learn Aquarius' lessons willingly;
Uranus is instinctively, very greatly feared...and truthfully, rightly so.
The single main reason why we need to adhere to the positive integration of
Saturn/Uranus in sociopolitical terms, however, is because if we don't, the
simple alternative is our extinction as a species. There's only two places
you can go from Saturn in particular. Past him, or to death; and you don't
go past him until he is entirely satisfied that you've earned it; that
usually means that you very nearly end up dying anyway.
> 1) Download http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
> 2) Unzip odyssey.zip and then open the file discoveries.pdf
> 3) See section 3.14 The Age of Aquarius on page 16-18.
I did so. Very interesting; particularly your perspective on the Aqu/Leo
relationship and how that manifested in Hitler's Aryan ideas.
Jye...@giganews.com
Inclusion of entire post for posterity, although my response is
limited, below:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:22:33 CST, Hermes
<her...@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>[note crosspost]
>
>Petrus wrote:
>
>: > Something else: Interesting that you link fascism to the Age of
>Thanks a lot for the reply. In my feeling and thinking, your descriptions
>give a quite accurate overall picture. I would like to throw in a few
>thoughts and methods that I developed over the years and use them to look
>a bit more into details at certain spots, but without trying or even
>claiming to be complete or accurate. Just as an opportunity to eventually
>apply these tools for a comprehensive view, like you presented above.
>
>In a way, these tools are my "musician's repertoire":
>
>* Uranus has just moved into Pisces after its 7-year sojourn in Aquarius,
>* and this suggests an emphasis on the creative imagination and on the
>* invisible dimensions of life. The last time Uranus went into Pisces,
>* the jazz era was born and some of the greatest literature in the world
>* was published in just seven short years.
>
>-- Liz Greene in 2003 [1]
>
>Also my public contributions, because they are mostly fragments in
>usenet and even more fragments because I almost always removed my
>own posts and only other people's replies and quotations remained,
>my public contributions are a bit kafkaesque. Kafka is certainly
>one of the writers that Liz Greene is alluding to, if not the best
>single example, maybe. Or maybe not.
>
>In that sense, this present text will be an exception, rather a
>Jazz Album than a Jazz Concert, a more constructed than improvised
>public contribution, but still written within a relatively short
>amount of time and not crosschecked in all details. Also, I added
>some quotes, something that I usually also do not do much.
>
>But let me start...
>
>Currently Chiron is at 18*16' Aquarius, conjunct the true northern
>lunar node at 18*35' Aquarius. Chiron is retrograde and moving at
>about the same speed as the nodes, so this is quite a long lasting
>phenomenon with a close conjunction between about May and October
>2008 [2], which by the way gives this maybe also a "venusy" touch.
>
>* These mysterious points are often associated with "fate" because they
>* represent the intersection points of the Sun零 and Moon零 orbits:
>* a combination of "destiny" (the Sun) and "embodiment" (the Moon).
>
>-- Liz Greene about the lunar nodes [1]
>
>* H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
>* the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
>* People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
>* the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
>* more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
>* more happy (e).
>*
>* H32bc are direct consequences of H32a. The moon moves
>* below the solar path at the southern node and above it
>* at the northern node, corresponding to entry into and
>* exit from the unconscious (H32de).
>
>-- me in [3]
>
>* The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
>* be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
>* between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
>* in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
>*
>* Woman: Do you think if I reincarnate that I might
>* come back as a cow in my next life?
>* Man: No, one does not come back as something that
>* one has been before.
>*
>* There is a deep truth hidden in that joke: A cow
>* eats grass and "produces" dung. Dung is very
>* fertile, but one cannot directly grow a cow from
>* dung, only indirectly by growing grass that can
>* then again feed young cows. That is why what can
>* grow from the southern node (anus) cannot be like
>* its sign or house, but must be more like the sign
>* and house of the northern node.
>
>-- me in [4]
>
>So much about the nodes.
>
>What about Chiron?
>
>The orbit of Chiron is between the orbits of Saturn and the one of Uranus,
>roughly touching both of them. Thus usually Chiron is also considered to
>be a mediator of some sort between these two or also between individuals
>and the collective, because the new planets Uranus and up are considered
>often to be responsible for collective things, arguing also that this is
>related to them not being visible to the naked eye.
>
>>From a slightly different perspective, one could also say that Chiron is
>a mediator between modernity and the past, between Age of Aquarius and
>Age of Pisces. Let me explore this path a bit more.
>
>Traditionally, Saturn ruled both Capricorn and Aquarius. Only after the
>discovery of Uranus in 1781, has Aquarius gotten a new ruler, Uranus,
>sometimes (or maybe more often) as co-ruler with Saturn. But implicitly
>more things changed: Traditionally, there is not really a full identity
>between ruling planet and sign and house. Sun and Leo and 5th house are
>traditionally not identical, whereas many modern astrologers more or
>less obviously identifying them as a trinity.
>
>It is interesting to view the new planets as children of the Age of
>Aquarius, as different facets of Aquarius and of his sometimes quite
>exaggerated drive to change/progress things, which has effectively
>resulted in more aquarian planets than ever before...
>
>But maybe back to Chiron as a first example:
>
>* No sooner had [Thetis] entered the cave and fallen asleep than Peleus seized
>* hold of her. The struggle was silent and fierce. Thetis turned successively
>* into fire, water, a lion, and a serpent; but Peleus had been warned what to
>* expect, and clung to her resolutely, even when she became an enormous slippery
>* cuttle-fish and squirted ink at him [...]. Though burned, drenched, mauled,
>* stung, and covered with sticky sepia ink, Peleus would not let her go and,
>* in the end, she yielded and they lay locked in a passionate embrace.
>
>-- Robert Graves in [5]
>
>Interesting, by the way, also that this paragraph comes just before the
>ones in which Eris tosses her golden apple...
>
>Peleus is, according to Robert Graves, sometimes also considered a centaur,
>half man, half horse. And it was Cheiron who counseled Peleus how to get
>together with Thetis (Cheiron seems to be prominent in many charts of love
>encounters, see e.g. a seminar by Liz Greene in 2006 or so).
>
>There is a horse in the sky, Pegasus, in the vicinity of Aquarius. Thus
>it becomes maybe also somewhat understandable why Neptune is also in
>some ways an aspect of Aquarius. It was Poseideon (Neptune) who first
>installed horse races in mythology. The fashion/vogue aspect of Aquarius,
>that comes together with his strive for progress, fits with that.
>
>Interlude about natural resources: Uranus is the steam engine, in which
>you burn (Element Fire) wood or coal (Earth) to generate motion. The
>central element is Water (Aquarius, Water Bearer) and it evaporates,
>becomes Air. In that sense, Aquarius is using, controlling the elements
>to achieve his goals. Wood and coal is destroyed. Wood could grow back
>from the ashes, but coal is old wood, so burning it is something that
>can only be done for a limited amount of time.
>
>Neptune is oil, for example. More energy and also base material for the
>chemical industry. There is certainly also a piscean side to Neptune,
>no doubt about that, but it should be noted that during most of the
>Age of Pisces, nobody cared much about that dark, stinking fluid that
>comes out of the ground in some places (with minor exceptions, like
>the use of natural asphalt). And nobody dug it up. Burning oil or gas,
>is also a one way street of limited supply, like with coal above.
>
>Pluto is nuclear reactions. Supply for nuclear fission (Uranium etc.)
>is also quite limited - like oil and gas it will not last for a whole
>2000 years of an Age of Aquarius. Nuclear fusion, when it gets possible
>will likely be possible for a longer time (and be much cleaner than
>fission), unless of course, demands increases too much again.
>
>Interesting that generation of electricity from all these sources
>usually involves the principle of the steam engine: Heat is generated
>and used to evaporate water which then operates a turbine and
>induces an electrical current - so very much Uranus stuff again.
>
>There is another long lasting reservoir, namely the heat stored in
>the core of the earth. I think it was at the beginning of last year
>or so that a company in Basel (Switzerland) started pumping water
>into the ground and trying to use the steam that comes up in order
>to generate power (experimentally). Now Basel is somewhat of an
>earth quake region and hosts lots of chemical industry, so Neptune
>territory. The evaporating water apparently induced a minor
>earthquake, no damage to anything, but still more than usual, so
>the company had to stop. But maybe in some more remote place, it
>would be a useful possibility to generate energy that way.
>
>But the whole thing seems more like Neptune in Aquarius to me than
>Chiron in Aquarius. Like in the piece of mythology above, Chiron does
>though control nature, keeps it within some boundaries, but he does
>not waste things without any limits.
>
>The new planets are to me a bit like a guy who has a table with four
>feet that of different lengths so that the table is rocking. Then
>he cuts off (or adds) a piece from one leg, or adds another leg. But
>he does too much or too little of it and so the table is not stable.
>Thus he tries again and again. Uranus was supposed to bring progress,
>but then Neptune was needed, to maybe balance consciousness and the
>(collective) unconscious. Then Neptune went maybe too far and Pluto
>brought maybe some more depth and doing only what is necessary and
>when that did not do, Cheiron was needed, etc.
>
>Pluto is the name of the Greek god of the underworld, who had many
>names, in Roman one of them was also Februs, the god that gave his
>name to the month February. Unlike Janus/January/Capricorn, who has
>two faces that look away from each other, Februs is quite a bit more
>limited in a way, forcing one single view. Sometimes that is good,
>but sometimes this just means to make things unconscious like in
>mythology where Uranus banned what he did not want to see to the
>underworld, only to have them come back during revolutions.
>
>The idea of a collective unconscious, of a clear line between what
>is conscious and what is not, is a child of the period after the
>discovery of Neptune and before the one Pluto, it is aquarian,
>I would say.
>
>Pluto was at its discovery first though to be as big as the Earth.
>But gradually its size was revealed to be smaller, and after many
>more objects of similar or even somewhat bigger size (Eris) were
>discovered, it became no longer tenable from a scientific view to
>consider Pluto a planet. That way (Chiron was already in Aquarius)
>Aquarius started to heal himself somewhat. Science with its by
>definition uniform and only true view of the world (very aquarian)
>dictated (controlled) the emotional forces of many scientists and
>many laymen and degraded Pluto to no longer being a planet.
>
>Like Thetis in the myth above, people have and are resisting the
>new realities that are enforced by Chiron. But to no avail, in
>my feeling and perception. In the end, they will yield and prefer
>it that way. Certainly their children base their views on the
>realities in the sky the know, not so much on the feelings of past
>generations.
>
>That is why Aquarius is not liked. He manages to obtain majorities
>with the goal to improve the situation for the average person, but
>the ones who note his actions most are usually the ones who are
>the victims of his changes, who are faced with a large instrumented
>organization that forces them to do things they do not like.
>
>It is only in the aftermath that one notes the good sides, like
>that many people in the world live like only kings lived about
>1000 years ago: Almost constant temperature inside apartments,
>no matter how hot or cold it is outside; turn a knob and you
>get enough heat to cook; turn another know and you get drinking
>water; and so on... Pleasant in the end, I guess, but I guess
>some people suffered on the way there...
>
>But, as in any piece of mythology, one cannot just focus onto just
>one opposite. The oppressive state and the revolutionary individual
>are both part of the theme (or of other themes, like e.g. Aries).
>
>* The Greek word *mythos* contains two nuances of meaning. In one sense,
>* *mythos* is a story. In another, more profound sense, it implies a
>* scheme or plan. It is this latter shading of the word which is most
>* relevant to both psychology and astrology, because the universality
>* of basic mythic motives reveals a groundplan or purposeful pattern of
>* development inherent in the human psyche as well as in the human body.
>
>-- Liz Greene in [6]
>
>Since opposites are part of the myth, it is not so easy to distinguish
>between opposite signs, either. In 2002, I proposed [7] to describe e.g.
>the inner mind of a Pisces as similar (at least in some respects) to
>the outer activities of a Virgo. Like this: Virgo tackles disorder in
>the outer world actively, starts to analyze and sort them. That way,
>a Virgo's head fills up quickly with a lot of details, so in effect the
>disorder in the real world diminishes, but at the same time there is
>more disorder in the head, in the inner world. Conversely, Pisces are
>much more reluctant to do something in the outside world, just letting
>things grow and be as they (the things) wish. That way maybe things
>get more disordered outside, but maybe only at first, but at least
>inside there is lots of clarity and an ability to react very quickly
>to suddenly appearing fundamental tasks, just because the essentials
>are always present, but nothing else.
>
>Of course, that is an oversimplified description, but the theme that
>inside and outside are reversed in many aspects for opposite signs is
>likely a sound proposition. And a useful one. Or maybe not? :)
>
>Let me shed some light onto a few more of my tools...
>
>Elementary Astrology: In 2002 I proposed a simpler model of the signs
>of the zodiac, an idea which I had incidentally when the sun was in
>Aquarius in 2001.
>
>* In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
>* of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
>* different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
>* just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
>* images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
>* simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
>* twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
>* pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
>* zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
>* fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
>* elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
>* after the other and explain things as I go along.
>
>-- Me in [8]
>
>An example says probably more: The fire signs are viewed in the model
>as a burning fire. First there is lots of wood (Earth), then the fire
>burns more strongly (Fire) and finally all goes up into smoke (Air).
>These phases are viewed in the model as Aries - Leo - Sagittarius.
>The element Earth is transformed by the element Fire to the element
>Air. In Aristotle's cycle of the elements, Earth (dry+cold) gets hot,
>becomes Fire (dry+hot) and then gets wet, becomes Air (wet+hot).
>
>Psychologically, there is a wound to the physical body (Earth) that
>is growing. That is the wound of the Grail's King (Leo) and the even
>deadly wound of Cheiron (Sagittarius, constellation of the archer is
>Cheiron or at least a centaur - side remark: that was not mentioned
>above when talking about Cheiron, unfortunately language is linear
>and not well suited to present a complex web of associations, and
>remember, this is just a exposition of some tools, of some ways of
>thinking about astrology and the world, not complete or even balanced
>system, not even an attempt into that direction - Lilith is in Sag.).
>
>Cheiron is immortal, which corresponds to the immortality of Air,
>of knowledge that can be written down and communicated to future
>generations, in contrast to the mortal body (Earth).
>
>* But the lion is a stage in a process, as Jung suggests; and it is
>* this process or pattern, which brings us into the sphere of the
>* fate of Leo. It would seem, from what I have seen in the life
>* histories of Leos with whom I have worked, that there is an
>* alchemical work to be performed. The lion is not permitted to
>* remain in its bestial form, but must give way to something other.
>
>-- Liz Greene in [9]
>
>The animal side (Earth) diminishes, while conscious awareness grows.
>There are many more examples how the simple model fits with many
>things that astrologers write about the signs, from very basic and
>maybe superficial things to the deeper psychological motivations.
>
>See also the introduction [8] from which I quoted above for a few
>more basic examples. And see [4] for some abstract approaches to
>Aries, Pisces-Aries and Air, based on the same model.
>
>Does maybe not fit in here fully, but besides looking at traditional
>meanings of houses and the corresponding signs, it seems to me that
>looking at the symbolism of the house *numbers* and the meaning of
>the words used for astrological houses gives an interesting, more
>fundamental view at houses, see also [4]. See also Heracles' tasks,
>like the one where he cleans a stable, task 5, by - but for that I
>need another model, just a second.
>
>That model is also part of [4], all emerged in posts to aat in 2004.
>
>1 - Fire - Sun - Conjunction
>2 - Air - Moon - Opposition
>3 - Water - Venus - Trine
>4 - Earth - Mars - Square
>5 - 5th Element - Mercury - Quintile
>6 - ... (see also cross-cultural links to the Chinese I Ching)
>
>In the 5th task, it is an idea (1-Fire) that allows to clean the
>stables in a very short time. Opening two gates at opposite sides
>of the stable (2-opposition-Air), then combining two rivers into
>one (2+1=3, Water), allows to wash out the dung (4-Earth) quickly
>and easily without getting one's hands dirty. Combined you get
>the 5th element, transformation of the elements.
>
>Now, this simple analytical view also reveals a similarity with
>the steam engine mentioned above, showing again, that telling
>apart opposing signs (here Aquarius-Leo) is not easy in practice,
>at least not for me... :)
>
>Back to the elementary model and applying it to Capricorn and to
>Aquarius:
>
>- Earth signs: Tree - needs sun/leaves/flowers/fruit (Fire) and
> its roots (Water) to live. For Taurus the sunny, but short lived
> beauty of flowers and leaves etc. is in the focus, while for
> Capricorn, the focus is on the roots, on the structures that
> keep the tree standing for many years. Virgo is in between, like
> each middle sign of its element always somewhat in a conflict,
> having difficulties to balance the elements, not sure whether
> to create beauty or order.
>
>- Air signs: Cloud - first lots of lightning in a thunder storm
> (Fire, Gemini), then starts to rain and in the end mostly just
> rain and no more lightning any more (Water, Aquarius).
>
>So interestingly, both Capricorn and Aquarius are at the end of
>a transition to Water, to feelings, harmony (Venus, trine, using
>the other model above).
>
>Bertold Brecht (Aquarius) wrote the following in [10]:
>
>* "Was tun Sie", wurde Herr K. gefragt, "wenn Sie einen Menschen lieben?"
>* "Ich mache einen Entwurf von ihm", sagte Herr K., "und sorge dass er
>* ihm aehlich wird." "Wer? Der Entwurf?" "Nein", sagte Herr K. "Der
>* Mensch."
>
>A but difficult to translate directly because it uses an ambiguity
>in the German language that cannot be translated:
>
>* "What do you do", Mr. K. was asked, "if you love a person?"
>* I make a blueprint of him", said Mr. K., "and make sure that he/it
>* gets more similar to him/it." "Who/what? the blueprint?" "No" said
>* Mr. K., "the person"
>
>Control, driven by a feeling of universal love. If I am not mistaken
>the "Golden Age" was said to be ruled by Saturn.
>
>Willian Lilly linked Aquarius to "in Houses, the roofs", while he
>linked Capricorn to "in houses low, dark places, neer the ground
>or threshold", so closer to Earth, more directly shamanic, I guess.
>
>Aquarius is a fixed sign. The 20th century was not really like that.
>It could really be that the plutonian side of Aquarius showed more
>during that period and that things are already easing into a more
>steady flow now. Difficult to say for me whether the more shamanic
>traits of signs ruled by Saturn will show their influence already
>soon or maybe will have to wait another 2000 years to really unfold.
>I guess in 2000 years technology will have progressed so far that
>individual local communities will be able to operate self-contained
>again, a factory to produce goods might be quite small by then
>(I am thinking maybe assembling things atom by atom or so). But
>predicting technology in 2000 years is extremely difficult.
>
>Anyway, in one way I presume the Age of Aquarius will likely be a
>bit boring too, like life in the USA,
There is quite a bit in this entire thread with which I disagree
but... life in the USA is boring? As opposed, perhaps, to life
in Switzerland? Do people riot often in Switzerland? When was
the last time Switzerland had "leaders" insane enough to start
unnecessary and destabilizing wars?
The USA has always been a country divided, even moreso after
President Lincoln's achievement in "uniting" the states. Since
then, the country is not only divided, it is diced.
For one example: A date of incorporation for the City of Chicago.
Chicago is known world-wide as the city of gangsters (and those
who live in it know that nothing has changed very much).
The date I'm using is May 12, 1875
Noon, UT
87w39
41n51
We see Saturn right on the MC in Aquarius, in a t-square with
Moon in Leo in the 4th, and both square Sun, Pluto, Mercury in
the 12th. That looks right to me. For decades in the 20th
Century, city government was called "The Machine" (Saturn
Aquarius), fighting or making deals with gangsters (12th house
Sun Pluto Merc in Taurus) at odds with both the government and
the people (Moon 4th house). The Sun Pluto Merc Taurus in 12th
also accurately describes the city's huge cow slaughtering
business (no one wants to actually *see* the cow being
slaughtered when they're sitting down to eat a steak - 12th house
industry, comparable to the ever-present crime syndicates, both
within, and outside of, government).
At the time of the 1968 Democratic Convention Riots, when out and
out murder and mayhem graced the fine city, p Moon was nearly
exact quincunx p Mercury - natal ruler of chart Ascendant. It
was a disastrous combination of the people (Moon) against the
city (Asc). p MC squared n MC. Except for those two aspects,
the rest of the data suggests the incorporation date is about a
year away from accuracy (and indeed there is an even earlier
year, I think 1837, but I could find no date for that year).
We could look at so many other riot charts - the recent L.A.
riots of the '90s, the infamous Crown Heights (Brooklyn, NY)
riots of the '90s, and so forth.
I would not agree that life in the USA is boring. It's
*dangerous*. Oh, and people barbeque here all the time, go
camping, hike in forests and deserts, see national wonders of
nature if they don't mind tourists from Switzerland (and other
places).
Oh yeah, we also start crazy wars a lot, and kill each other
frequently.
G.
> which I view in many respects
>as an egg that hatches the Age of Aquarius - Cancer shell to protect
>it (sun), with a subliminal drive to spread its seed across the world
>(moon in Aquarius). Again, these are just fragments, no claims of
>balance or completeness or whatever - but good tools, I hope :)
>
>The Hegira had the n. node in early Leo, which spread to Spain in a
>time when there was islamic influence to it. Also Great Britain has
>this axis emphasized, just look at a british passport with a lion
>and a unicorn (Leo-Aquarius). These countries sailed further west,
>and so the same axis is also strong in Britain's former colonies,
>with differing emphasis each, I presume.
>
>I remember a report from Sydney, Australia, where two immigrants said
>that people were more often outside there, for barbecues etc., closer
>to nature than most people in Europe or the USA.
>
>Allow me to get back to a few of my things (Switzerland, my home country
>also has the n. node in Leo, if you take the old 1291 founding date).
>
>It was a love story that lead me to astrology and into the public.
>In that sense, one of the reasons that my public contributions have
>remained fragmentary are also related to this. Circling the castle.
>
>I am depositing these "side effects" here and now, with this post,
>besides what already survived in fragments, as sort of a lead in for
>more or less contemporary astrologers or for whoever might be
>interested in them...
>
>Maybe I should also point out this usenet post [11] in which I propose
>to use usenet post (or to other places) as data for proving astrology:
>
>* Fortunately, groups.google.com has collected a
>* large part of all usenet posts, as a harvest
>* that is now ready to be analyzed and sorted,
>* in my opinion, best using astrology:
>*
>* Detach from the idea of real people and redefine
>* people as screen names. Then you get a "birth",
>* namely the first post under that screen name, and
>* you get events in that "life", that you can then
>* analyze in terms of transits to the birth time,
>* of the current time, of birth time and transits
>* of the group the posts take place, etc.
>*
>* (Note that this is maybe not as different as in
>* real life: A birth chart gives away a lot of
>* information about a real person, but looking at
>* charts of parents, ancestors, home town, etc. and
>* looking at names etc. almost always broadens the
>* frame in interesting ways).
>*
>* So you get to the second data for billions of
>* events that happened to millions of people "in the
>* matrix", and most of it is not even real content -
>* which would be very difficult to analyze - but
>* instead is often fights without much real content,
>* or misunderstanding because people do not see
>* each other in use
>
>Definitely not a piece of cake to do in reality, but the technology
>would already be there in many respects (people working at Google,
>etc.). In my feeling and thinking, you can't convince unless you
>have an overwhelming amount of data and more than expected fits.
>
>Anyway, another tool that might be put to use sometime.
>
>Of course, the notion of a tool and posting as Hermes hints at Pluto
>in Virgo in my chart, and building up on things proposed by people
>with Pluto in Leo. But Virgo is quite an obstinate sign in a way,
>like - in similar ways - all mutable signs. They have to be more
>obstinate than the fixed signs in order to let what the fixed signs
>pursued and focussed on run out gently and prepare the ground for
>new things to emerge.
>
>On the other hand, I notice a decline in my abilities to do really
>fundamental analysis since it became clear that Pluto is no longer
>a planet. I still have Uranus conjunct Pluto (* 7 Aug 1966 at 04:12
>in the morning in Zurich, Switzerland), but it is clearly weaker in
>effect in my feeling than it was before. Also a reason to leave
>things as is, I guess.
>
>A similar weakening has also become apparent globally by the escape
>of Natascha Kampusch just after Pluto had been demoted and I
>guess it will continue to some degree. As recent reclassifications
>have shown, being first in science is also valued similarly as in
>astrology (where the first thing, the first moment defines the rest),
>namely Pluto has now given his name to a large group of objects, so
>some of Pluto's power will be preserved, but in my feeling the
>absoluteness is gone - depth has remained to quite some degree, but
>you cannot take away "a little absoluteness" and still remain
>absolute, that is by definition of "absolute" not possible.
>
>* Natascha Kampusch (born 17 February 1988 in Vienna) is an Austrian who
>* was abducted at the age of 10 on 2 March 1998, and remained in custody
>* of her kidnapper, Wolfgang Priklopil, for more than eight years, until
>* she escaped on 23 August 2006.
>
>-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch
>
>In the spring of 2004 I had a different kind of idea. I posted it
>to alt.astrology.tropical (post already removed, nobody replied).
>In it I present an idea that links the existence of 4+1 elements
>to the immediate experience of space and time. A quite timeless
>thing, not bound to technology, ages, astrology etc. and also in
>harmony with contemporary science and also with e.g. the I Ching.
>
>That alone is (in my personal opinion) worth more than all the rest
>that I wrote about here. As a physicist, I am interested in nature,
>not so much in immediate culture.
>
>That's it, once and for all. See this post [12] for a link to my web
>site and my opinion about whether to provide any future support.
>
>Note that (without consciously planning to) that post turned out to
>be exactly 42 lines long (without the headers)... ;)
>
>)o+
>
>PS: Wrote this in one flow 16 August 2008, just done now, and the moon
>is currently at 19*42' Aquarius, time for a quick review and then out
>with it (nearer Neptune, I guess), once and for all, I guess. :)
>
>[1] Liz Greene. Happy Birthday, Astrodienst - A look at the company's
> birth chart. 2003. http://www.astro.com/people/chart_e.htm
>[2] Ephemeris for 2008 at Astrodienst.
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/2000/ae_2008.pdf
>[3] Me. Moon Nodes as Gates. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050221190937/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s228.html
>[4] Me. "Book of Changes". Series of usenet posts. 2004. Archived at
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050205022800/exactphilosophy.net/book/
>[5] Robert Graves. The Greek Myths. 1960. 81k.
>[6] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p166.
>[7] Me. Axes and Opposites. Usenet post. 2002. Archived at
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050216230010/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s095.html
>[8] Me. Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac. Usenet post. 2002.
> Archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20050215194330/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
>[9] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p205+206.
>[10] Bertold Brecht. Geschichten vom Herrn Keuner. 1930s.
>[11] Me. Usenet and Experiment. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050222091126/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s246.html
>[12] Me. Usenet post with a link to my web site exactphilosophy.net. 2008.
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/1382338c74bc0867?dmode=source
>[13] Me. Unconscious Communication and Astrology (see also original documents at
> my web site). 2008 (2002)). Quoted by Apollia and I.R.Heller (thx!):
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/2659729d71e120c7
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/ce4ee614eeaea3bc
DJ
> > Something else: Interesting that you link fascism to the Age of
> > Aquarius. So far I had assumed that I was the only one who had
oh, I've thought so for many, many years. Why did the SS have two
lightning bolts as its symbol? Very uranian.
------
> Fascism is a manifestation of the two planets (Uranus and Saturn) both
> combining to produce a particular form of political government. In the case
> of fascism, it is the Saturnine half of the two which is more immediately
> visible, with Uranus manifesting as technology used to support it, and in
> the case of Communism, Uranus is the more visible of the two, with Saturnine
> totalitarianism underlying it.
All manifestations come about in the "shadow" of the one preceding.
Without the economic boom of the 1920s (jupiter) and collapse (saturn)
of the '30s, the fascists and nazis (uranus) would not have developed.
The USA is headed down the same path, and has been since the stealing
of the 2000 election by America's own George the Third (as I see it,
Clinton was basically positive jupiter, Bush very much negative, run
amuck), and the resultant, saturnine, collapse of 2008, which would
have developed quite differently if the more or less artificial
extension of jupiter influence had been cut away by Gore or Kerry,
both saturnine types. But if pinecones were pomegranates, we'd all
eat.
------
> A political system which integrates these two in a positive sense would need
> to be very different. I believe here that the writing/perspective of
> Terrence McKenna is relevant, and this is also what such individuals as the
> authors of the play "Hair" were referring to.
I don't think any political system has been or can be developed which
cannot be corrupted. Some are better than others, but none are immune.
------
> It would be a society which both integrated technology, (Uranus) but which
> was also very deeply based on indigenous/shamanic principles. (positive
> Saturn) Use of entheogens (Uranus) would be not only completely mainstream,
> but would also be one of the foundational pillars of the system. These
> substances would be used not only for contact with extraterrestrials
> (Uranus) but also for developmental experiences as well. There would be a
> very specific set of guidelines and customs (Saturn) regarding their use, in
> order to prevent abuse.
sounds like neptune to me.
------
> Decentralisation would be another fundamental principle. Food would be
> grown and produced literally on an individual basis, or by parents for their
> children in the case of families. Individual self-responsibility (Saturn)
> would be recognised and would be regarded very highly. Water would become
> the fuel source in the same way that oil (Neptune) had been in Pisces, and
> various outgrowths from hydrogen based technology would be used to
> effectively repair the planet's environment and return it to a more original
> state. (Saturn)
>
> I'm not talking about perfection here. Even at its' most positive
> manifestation, Aquarius, like any other sign, is not perfect. Of all the
> signs, it is also by far the most strongly rejected. I have often thought
> that it would be better, far better, for the majority of my fellow man if we
> were able to simply have another 2,000 years of Pisces, and bypass Aquarius
> altogether. Most of humanity will not learn Aquarius' lessons willingly;
> Uranus is instinctively, very greatly feared...and truthfully, rightly so.
oh please! Tell that to a French Huguenot in September 1572. It wasn't
the forces of aquarius to be feared. All signs have their time, and
all are feared in a time of change.
------
> The single main reason why we need to adhere to the positive integration of
> Saturn/Uranus in sociopolitical terms, however, is because if we don't, the
> simple alternative is our extinction as a species. There's only two places
> you can go from Saturn in particular. Past him, or to death; and you don't
> go past him until he is entirely satisfied that you've earned it; that
> usually means that you very nearly end up dying anyway.
all things die, eventually. Extinction, personally or as a species, is
an inevitability. It's part of the passage of time. It's not an
"alternative". It WILL happen, and when it does, we will be superseded
by another. Nothing wrong with that.
------
> > 1) Downloadhttp://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
DJ
> Looks like the turning point has come. McCain has suspended
> his campaign, Obama will, I guess follow soon. I just hope
> that Bush #43 will not mess it up again.
------
George the Third could screw up a Little League game.
------
Estimates are quite
> clearly, as far as I gather, that more than 700 billion are
> needed to avoid the worst, i.e. the current plan will not
> do, nor is it probably addressing all necessary issues.
>
> I do agree with most of what you wrote below if I take all
> statements by themselves, but I also think Petrus has cached
> important aspects of the overall picture very well in many
> ways, although in the details things may be "questionable" or
> at least in some way not completely thought through, in a word,
> it contains lots of Libra, ahead of its time. For example, the
> Uranus-Saturn theme in light of the upcoming (or already
> started opposition of these two planets).
------
yeah, really cool! I like how Obama the libra is squared to Bush the
cancer, but why "ahead of its time"? Seems to me rather typical of
merc retro, especially the great urgency in this--completely
predictable--financial crisis to "fix it NOW!!!" and to hell with the
details, whether another crook makes another billion dollars or not--
------
> About present and future presidents (I am repeating myself,
> but my original posts from a few years ago about that topic
> are gone), I would like to to add the following, in order to
> *complement* what has already been said in this thread.
>
> For me the ideal US president has to combine essentially sun
> and moon through the northern lunar nodes.
>
> I picture that as Captain Kirk (standing for the north node
> in Leo), surrounded by the doctor McCoy (sun in Cancer) and
> Spock (moon in Aquarius). All the presidents that I had been
> consciously aware since my birth, i.e. Carter, Reagan, Bush
> Senior and Clinton were emotionally settled, relaxed. They
> were (and are for the ones that are still alive) also ready
> to start moving at any moment when necessary. And they had/
> have fantasy, they have ideas. Although bound by all the
> interests in the party they belong to, they were managing
> the forces in the interest of the USA (and even the world,
> to the degree that it is the free world), not only acting
> in the interest of themselves and they had the necessary
> abilities to do so.
------
interesting to me you mention only air and fire sign presidents. I
hadn't thought about it but Johnson-Nixon-Ford before them were earth/
water, as is George the Third.
Gore and Kerry, too, are fire.
------
> At any time there was a crisis on the Enterprise, the doctor
> would typcially react very emotionally (sun in Cancer). That
> side is what Bush Junior represents. Gore (at least the Gore
> in 2000, not so much the one now) reminded at least in public
> a lot more of Spock, more a logical machine, with a lack of
> feelings or at least a lack to express or recognize them.
>
> Both Bush Junior and Al Gore gave me the impression of not
> being much free, of being driven by some forces that they
> could not fully understand and/or control. Family issues etc.
> and above all, according to what I mentioned above, they
> lacked completeness, self-awareness etc.
>
> Kerry was in my feeling and view, not much better in that
> respect. Obama is certainly better in that respect and the
> old man McCain has certainly also shown his ability to find
> new creative solutions, unexpected ones. Both would be much
> better choices than Bush Junior (duh!). Obviously after eight
> Republican years, a Democrat would usually be due (and
> personally I have to admit that like many people in Europe
> my concrete political opinions correlate a lot more with
> Democrats than with Republicans), but any of the candidates
> will be better than Bush Junior (I would be a bit scared if
> Sarah Palin got president already within the next 8 years;
> I am not sure if she is intelligent enough, and she does
> like Bush Junior lack experience of the world outside of
> the USA).
------
a nightmare. A cute nightmare. Hot, sexy and stupid.
------
> Good luck in any case!
>
> )o+
>
> --
>
> Benjamin Franklin on Security (lightning rod):
>
> * Those who calculate chances may perhaps find that not one death
> * (or the destruction of one house) in a hundred thousand happens
> * from that cause, and that therefore it is scarce worth while to
> * be at any expense to guard against it. But in all countries there
> * are particular situations of buildings more exposed than others
> * to such accidents, and there are minds so strongly impressed with
> * the apprehension of them, as to be very unhappy every time a little
> * thunder is within their hearing; it may therefore be well to render
> * this little piece of new knowledge as general and well understood
> * as possible, since to make us safe is not all its advantage, it is
> * some to make us easy. And as the stroke it secures us from might
> * have chanced perhaps but once in our lives, while it may relieve
> * us a hundred times from those painful apprehensions, the latter
> * may possibly on the whole contribute more to the happiness of
> * mankind than the former.
>
> Simple ey? Really rather saturnian? (Franklin's sun, or maybe fits
> also well with Jupiter in Capricorn now, Zeus that throws lightning
> bolts, but of course also uranian (electricity) And/or also Cancer?
> How about somewhat more solid dams around New Orleans, somewhat
> more stable houses? Not like the technology would be missing...
> Would be much nicer to just cuddle up at a safe home for two days
> until the Hurricane is past and then simply step out again and
> enjoy life again...
>
> In article
> <93066b75-572d-471c-8651-ec0cdb2ab...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Jye...@giganews.com
<her...@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>Suppose my hypothesis was right that Pluto is losing power.
>What effect(s) would that most likely have on plutocracies?
>Twenty years from now, would people more likely consider
>this rather a good or a bad evolution for society and the
>individuals in it?
>
>Mars and Uranus in Gemini: I invested a lot of energy into
>writing my very long post, and what did then Jyeshta do in
>a typically american
There is no "american" way. I posted as an individual from the
United States. (There are more than one Americas, in case you've
forgotten.)
>way? She polarized out of proportion,
>hinging all on a side-remark that is not directly related
>to the main premises of my original post. That's exactly
>how you slice and dice. :(
It was a pertinent reply, I thought.
>However, the reply did certainly also rise important issues
>with regard to the USA and the Age of Aquarius etc. I have
>no complete answer, no intention to invest any more energy
>into finding one, unless I get some real public recognition
>(Saturn in Virgo - Demeter on strike, or just realism as I
>tend to view it) for my contributions to astrology and to
>science. And also for looking at US issues astrologically
>a lot more than at, say, Swiss issues, by the way.
>
>Regarding the complex touched, I looked at charts of Chicago
>(took me about 5 minutes to find the 1837 date and the earlier
>1833 one,
Data please? And what did you find in them which is descriptive
of Chicago?
I'm so sorry that I replied to your post and caused you to spend
so much time thinking about it.
>I have preserved the post below at my site:
>
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/legacy/
>
>Since it quotes Jyeshta and Petrus, please tell me anytime
>if you would prefer your replies not to be listed there or
>to be anonymized etc.
If you preface it in the way you have done, no you do not have my
permission to use my name or comments.
<snip>
Jye...@giganews.com
x-post, which would probably be rejected there, I am also posting
only to aamod. If it duplicates, please accept my apology.