Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Heresy
23 views
Skip to first unread message
A B
Mar 16, 2012, 8:04:46 PM3/16/12
to
Does anyone know what the old astrological authorities associated with
tendencies to heresy? I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit. I haven't
myself got any books old enough to talk about that, except Todd Carnes's PDF
of "Christian Astrology", which I'll have a look at later.
Thanks very much,
--
A. B.
><>
My e-mail address is zen177395 at zendotcodotuk, though I don't check that
account very often.
Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
tendencies to heresy? I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit. I haven't
myself got any books old enough to talk about that, except Todd Carnes's PDF
of "Christian Astrology", which I'll have a look at later.
Thanks very much,
--
A. B.
><>
My e-mail address is zen177395 at zendotcodotuk, though I don't check that
account very often.
Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
Gary
Mar 17, 2012, 10:57:02 PM3/17/12
to
suggest that fortune telling is not a good thing. See for example:
http://www.openbible.info/topics/fortune_tellers_and_psychics
Gary
A B
Mar 18, 2012, 6:10:45 PM3/18/12
to
"Gary" <lanc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6e44d876-13f7-4687...@o3g2000pbt.googlegroups.com...
Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I didn't mean, why did some
non-astrologers call astrology heresy; I meant, what did the old astrologers
consider to be the astrological signifiers of heresy?
news:6e44d876-13f7-4687...@o3g2000pbt.googlegroups.com...
non-astrologers call astrology heresy; I meant, what did the old astrologers
consider to be the astrological signifiers of heresy?
~^.Saba Gracile.^~
Mar 19, 2012, 9:12:12 AM3/19/12
to
"A B" <@bleBaker.uk> skrev i melding
news:4f662895$0$2969$fa0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
> "Gary" <lanc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6e44d876-13f7-4687...@o3g2000pbt.googlegroups.com...
>> On Mar 17, 2:04 am, "A B" <@bleBaker.uk> wrote:
>>> Does anyone know what the old astrological authorities associated with
>>> tendencies to heresy? I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit. I haven't
>>> myself got any books old enough to talk about that, except Todd Carnes's
>>> PDF
>>> of "Christian Astrology", which I'll have a look at later.
>>> Thanks very much,
>>> --
>>> A. B.><>
>>>
>>> My e-mail address is zen177395 at zendotcodotuk, though I don't check
>>> that
>>> account very often.
>>> Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
>>
>> I suspect that it is because there are some passages in the Bible that
>> suggest that fortune telling is not a good thing. See for example:
>>
>> http://www.openbible.info/topics/fortune_tellers_and_psychics
>
> Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I didn't mean, why did some
> non-astrologers call astrology heresy; I meant, what did the old
> astrologers consider to be the astrological signifiers of heresy?
> --
I don't know what the old astrologers thought. But the word heresy
> news:6e44d876-13f7-4687...@o3g2000pbt.googlegroups.com...
>> On Mar 17, 2:04 am, "A B" <@bleBaker.uk> wrote:
>>> Does anyone know what the old astrological authorities associated with
>>> tendencies to heresy? I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit. I haven't
>>> myself got any books old enough to talk about that, except Todd Carnes's
>>> of "Christian Astrology", which I'll have a look at later.
>>> Thanks very much,
>>> --
>>> A. B.><>
>>>
>>> My e-mail address is zen177395 at zendotcodotuk, though I don't check
>>> that
>>> account very often.
>>> Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
>>
>> I suspect that it is because there are some passages in the Bible that
>> suggest that fortune telling is not a good thing. See for example:
>>
>> http://www.openbible.info/topics/fortune_tellers_and_psychics
>
> Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I didn't mean, why did some
> non-astrologers call astrology heresy; I meant, what did the old
> astrologers consider to be the astrological signifiers of heresy?
> --
is explained by onelook.com to be "
-"an action or belief that opposes the official principles of a religion and
is considered wrong"
-maybe Uranus?..
S
John Susen
Mar 19, 2012, 11:03:58 PM3/19/12
to
using biblical references: There is much more evidence supporting
astrology, and when there are verses that appear to condem it, they
are often taken out of context.
http://www.devineadvantage.com/archives/fromthedevil.htm
Good Luck,
John Susen
www.celestiallogic.com
www.facebook.com/johnsusen.astrologer
John Roth
Mar 21, 2012, 8:23:17 PM3/21/12
to
John Roth
A B
Mar 23, 2012, 5:20:25 PM3/23/12
to
"John Susen" <jsus...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ff3763bb-9ad0-4df0...@d17g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
to find in the chart of a "heretic". But thanks anyway, I'd like a look at
those.
news:ff3763bb-9ad0-4df0...@d17g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 16, 7:04 pm, "A B" <@bleBaker.uk> wrote:
>> Does anyone know what the old astrological authorities associated with
>> tendencies to heresy? I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit. I haven't
>> myself got any books old enough to talk about that, except Todd Carnes's
>> PDF
>> of "Christian Astrology", which I'll have a look at later.
>
>> Does anyone know what the old astrological authorities associated with
>> tendencies to heresy? I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit. I haven't
>> myself got any books old enough to talk about that, except Todd Carnes's
>> of "Christian Astrology", which I'll have a look at later.
>
> Here is a very good article by Carol Devine that defends astrology
> using biblical references: There is much more evidence supporting
> astrology, and when there are verses that appear to condem it, they
> are often taken out of context.
>
> http://www.devineadvantage.com/archives/fromthedevil.htm
Actually, I meant what would the old astrological authorities have expected
> using biblical references: There is much more evidence supporting
> astrology, and when there are verses that appear to condem it, they
> are often taken out of context.
>
> http://www.devineadvantage.com/archives/fromthedevil.htm
to find in the chart of a "heretic". But thanks anyway, I'd like a look at
those.
Kjell Pettersson
Mar 25, 2012, 3:30:30 AM3/25/12
to
I don't know, but the question is interesting and I have been thinking about it. So here an answer that is not an answer to your question, but rather a way of trying to think how the ancients might have been thinking.
What I came up with was Jupiter square Saturn. But why?
I associated to the Jupiter/Saturn-conjunction cycle, where, as mentioned in the Star of Bethlehem thread, Jupiter conjoining Saturn in Pisces has been seen as heralding the birth of Jesus.
Jupiter conjunct Saturn was about kingship, but for the ancients, kings were not what they have become today. Even though the formula is later, rule by divine right was at least implied.
I am thinking that if Jupiter conjunct Saturn shows the societal norm (in the case of the ancients of the astrological East), the king / high priest ruling the country, a square between the two of these could show someone who acts out of accord with this norm.
I hope someone will come up with an answer, because it would surely be interesting to know!
/Kjell
What I came up with was Jupiter square Saturn. But why?
I associated to the Jupiter/Saturn-conjunction cycle, where, as mentioned in the Star of Bethlehem thread, Jupiter conjoining Saturn in Pisces has been seen as heralding the birth of Jesus.
Jupiter conjunct Saturn was about kingship, but for the ancients, kings were not what they have become today. Even though the formula is later, rule by divine right was at least implied.
I am thinking that if Jupiter conjunct Saturn shows the societal norm (in the case of the ancients of the astrological East), the king / high priest ruling the country, a square between the two of these could show someone who acts out of accord with this norm.
I hope someone will come up with an answer, because it would surely be interesting to know!
/Kjell
A B
Mar 26, 2012, 6:01:32 PM3/26/12
to
"A B" <@bleBaker.uk> wrote on 17th March:
finally got round to looking through "Christian Astrology", so here's some
bits from the Natal section.
p611-2, Of the Religion of the Native: "Mars or Dragon's tail in the ninth,
or Saturn or Mars in the third (opposite to the ninth), being in a movable
sign, and Jupiter weak, peregrine or in his detriment, and in a cadent
house, afflicted of Saturn or Mars, usually such Natives are either very
backward in Religion, express little, or else are of none at all, or are
perverted in that wherein they were educated, or if they do stumble upon any
Religion, they prove most pernicious Sectaries.
But if Jupiter Venus or Dragon's head possess the ninth or third, the Native
proves a good Christian, and a lover of Religion wherein trained up.
The Sun Moon Mercury or Fortuna in those houses, are moderate Signes, and do
augment the signification of goodness, when in any benevolent aspect of
Jupiter or Venus; decrease and diminish it when in aspect with the
Infortunes."
p613, Aphorisms signifying Impiety: "Saturn, Mars, Dragon's tail in the
ninth or third, in movable Signes, Jupiter being peregrine or in Detriment,
Cadent, infected of the Infortunes, argue the Native will not be constant in
one Religion.
The Lords of the ninth unfortunate in angles, shewes contemners of
Godliness; the more certain if they be Retrograde : Where observe, Saturn
inclines to Heresie, Mars to Blasphemy, Dragon's tail to Atheisme.
... Jupiter Mercury and Lord of the Ascendant in double bodied signs, notes,
the Native will be Heretical, or change that Religion wherein he was first
educated."
Now the chart I actually had in mind was Rupert Sheldrake's:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Sheldrake,_Rupert If you haven't come
across him, he's a British biologist who's famous for blatantly
investigating the paranormal, which naturally enrages the scientific
establishment. In 1981 an editorial in Nature, of all the usually
level-headed journals, declared that he was "to be condemned in exactly the
language that the pope used to condemn Galileo, and for the same reason. It
is heresy." So I was curious to know whether heresy against Christian
doctrine and heresy against the new religion of science look the same in a
birth chart! (Although he was brought up as a Christian and became a
fervent atheist for a while before developing his current interests, so that
complicates things.)
Oddly enough, nearly all the indicators we've come up with are there.
Jupiter is entirely malaspected (except sextile MC). Not square Saturn, as
Kjell thought, but at least semisextile it and also opposite a Capricorn
Moon. (In itself it's emphasised - in exaltation and closely conjunct the
Sun.)
Uranus is conjunct Saturn and Venus, and making another semisextile to
Jupiter.
As for Lilly's points, Mars (and Pluto) in 9th and Jupiter slightly
afflicted by Saturn, which incidentally is "in cahoots" with Mars via a
sextile. Mercury is in a "double bodied sign", though not Jupiter or the
chart ruler. I notice there aren't any of the ones for "contemners of
Godliness", though; in fact Sheldrake isn't given to condemning anything -
it's him that's condemned by other people, for not condemning the things
they think he should!
Good chart this, have to think about it some more.
> Does anyone know what the old astrological authorities associated with
> tendencies to heresy? I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit. I haven't
> myself got any books old enough to talk about that, except Todd Carnes's
> PDF of "Christian Astrology", which I'll have a look at later.
Thanks for all these good suggestions. Just to round things off, I've
> tendencies to heresy? I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit. I haven't
> myself got any books old enough to talk about that, except Todd Carnes's
> PDF of "Christian Astrology", which I'll have a look at later.
finally got round to looking through "Christian Astrology", so here's some
bits from the Natal section.
p611-2, Of the Religion of the Native: "Mars or Dragon's tail in the ninth,
or Saturn or Mars in the third (opposite to the ninth), being in a movable
sign, and Jupiter weak, peregrine or in his detriment, and in a cadent
house, afflicted of Saturn or Mars, usually such Natives are either very
backward in Religion, express little, or else are of none at all, or are
perverted in that wherein they were educated, or if they do stumble upon any
Religion, they prove most pernicious Sectaries.
But if Jupiter Venus or Dragon's head possess the ninth or third, the Native
proves a good Christian, and a lover of Religion wherein trained up.
The Sun Moon Mercury or Fortuna in those houses, are moderate Signes, and do
augment the signification of goodness, when in any benevolent aspect of
Jupiter or Venus; decrease and diminish it when in aspect with the
Infortunes."
p613, Aphorisms signifying Impiety: "Saturn, Mars, Dragon's tail in the
ninth or third, in movable Signes, Jupiter being peregrine or in Detriment,
Cadent, infected of the Infortunes, argue the Native will not be constant in
one Religion.
The Lords of the ninth unfortunate in angles, shewes contemners of
Godliness; the more certain if they be Retrograde : Where observe, Saturn
inclines to Heresie, Mars to Blasphemy, Dragon's tail to Atheisme.
... Jupiter Mercury and Lord of the Ascendant in double bodied signs, notes,
the Native will be Heretical, or change that Religion wherein he was first
educated."
Now the chart I actually had in mind was Rupert Sheldrake's:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Sheldrake,_Rupert If you haven't come
across him, he's a British biologist who's famous for blatantly
investigating the paranormal, which naturally enrages the scientific
establishment. In 1981 an editorial in Nature, of all the usually
level-headed journals, declared that he was "to be condemned in exactly the
language that the pope used to condemn Galileo, and for the same reason. It
is heresy." So I was curious to know whether heresy against Christian
doctrine and heresy against the new religion of science look the same in a
birth chart! (Although he was brought up as a Christian and became a
fervent atheist for a while before developing his current interests, so that
complicates things.)
Oddly enough, nearly all the indicators we've come up with are there.
Jupiter is entirely malaspected (except sextile MC). Not square Saturn, as
Kjell thought, but at least semisextile it and also opposite a Capricorn
Moon. (In itself it's emphasised - in exaltation and closely conjunct the
Sun.)
Uranus is conjunct Saturn and Venus, and making another semisextile to
Jupiter.
As for Lilly's points, Mars (and Pluto) in 9th and Jupiter slightly
afflicted by Saturn, which incidentally is "in cahoots" with Mars via a
sextile. Mercury is in a "double bodied sign", though not Jupiter or the
chart ruler. I notice there aren't any of the ones for "contemners of
Godliness", though; in fact Sheldrake isn't given to condemning anything -
it's him that's condemned by other people, for not condemning the things
they think he should!
Good chart this, have to think about it some more.
A B
Mar 26, 2012, 6:01:58 PM3/26/12
to
Makes sense to me. Of course, to some extent that'd apply to any "hard"
aspect between Jupiter and Saturn, but somehow the square seems more awkward
than the opposition.
Proper posting follows.
"Kjell Pettersson" <kjel...@kjellpettersson.com> wrote in message
news:33076576.802.1332656932597.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbfw10...
aspect between Jupiter and Saturn, but somehow the square seems more awkward
than the opposition.
Proper posting follows.
"Kjell Pettersson" <kjel...@kjellpettersson.com> wrote in message
news:33076576.802.1332656932597.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbfw10...
dklugmann
Jul 4, 2012, 2:20:16 PM7/4/12
to
I am Jewish and i would say heresy according to our tradition is to worship the stars or planets as individual entities and not realise that there is a deeper force behind them and controlling them. Also worshipping the stars just to get your own needs met is another form of heresy. Understanding that the Zodiac is part of a greater order i would not see in any way as heresy.
http://www.myastrologycharts.com
http://www.myastrologycharts.com
0 new messages