What house rules nephews?
That Certain Third Doctor Fan
fifth house from the third house (the house of your sibling's
children) and that comes out to the seventh house.
Is that right?
Any help appreciated!
jeriwho
Michael Rideout
That's what I think, as well-- the 7th House (5th from the 3rd).
Michael Rideout
astropophageous
20030329134235...@mb-ct.aol.com...
the next one in age, the 7th the next one, andsoforth.
Derived houses to be derived accordingly.
There is a French astrologer named Tinia Faery who was very good in this if
my memory serves me well.
astropophageous
That Certain Third Doctor Fan
>the next one in age, the 7th the next one, andsoforth.
>Derived houses to be derived accordingly.
>There is a French astrologer named Tinia Faery who was very good in this if
>my memory serves me well.
>astropophageous
>
Wait, now you've only explained half. The nephew I am concerned about
is the son of my oldest *brother*, but my oldest brother is only the
second oldest child of my parents. (I have a sister older than he.)
So is the third house actually the ruler of my oldest sister, and the
fifth the next oldest sibling? Or is it realy a male-dictated order,
and the oldest brother (even if he is not the oldest sibling) still
gets the third house distinction?
Thanks for any input!
jeriwho
Michael Rideout
I've never seen that stated in print-- not that I've *read* everything that's
been printed, of course-- but I have tinkered with a similar sort of rule on my
own. This is similar to the idea that the 7th House represents the first
spouse, the 9th House represents the second spouse, the 11th House represents
the third spouse, and so on.
However, the way I was tinkering with it is a bit different than the rule you
mentioned. I figure that if the 1st House represents the native, then the 3rd
House might represent the sibling who came *after* the native, the 5th House
might represent the sibling who came after that, and so on. For the siblings
who are *older* than the native, I went in the opposite direction-- 11th House
for the sibling just preceding the native, 9th House for the sibling before
that, and so on.
In general, however, the 3rd House represents *all* of the siblings, just as
*all* of the spouses are generally represented by the 7th House. So as a
general rule, the 7th House (5th from the 3rd) should represent the nieces and
nephews taken as a whole.
Now, if we're going to apply the "skipping houses" technique to get different
houses for the different siblings, should we also use it to get different
houses for different children-- 5th House for the first child, 7th House for
the second child, 9th House for the third child, and so on?
Jeri says that the nephew in question is the son of her oldest brother, who was
the second child of her parents. Jeri didn't say where *she* fits into the
picture (third child? fourth child? etc.), so let's assume that she was the
third child. Jeri also didn't say whether the nephew was the first (oldest)
child of that brother, or the second child, etc., so let's assume that he's the
first child.
Using the technique you mentioned, the nephew in question would be represented
by the 9th House (the 5th House-- 3rd from the 3rd-- being the second-oldest
sibling, and the 9th House-- 5th from the 5th-- being the first child of that
sibling).
Using the variation that I mentioned, the nephew in question might be
represented by the 3rd House (the 11th House being the sibling born just before
Jeri, and the 3rd House-- 5th from the 11th-- being the first child of that
sibling).
Using the rule as you gave it, my younger brother would be represented by my
9th House, because he was the fifth child, but I was the fourth child, and we
would exclude me. Using the variation that I proposed, my younger brother
would be represented by my 3rd House. I have Pluto in my 3rd House, and one
possible interpretation of that is "the death of a sibling," which might be
understood to mean *early* in life (i.e., rather than later in life due to old
age). The only sibling I've lost so far is my younger brother, who died from
an automobile accident while I was 18 years old.
Michael Rideout
astropophageous
That Certain Third Doctor Fan <jer...@pipeline.com> wrote in usenet message
: 2h5c8vkepjrl0abpb...@4ax.com...
There has never been any mention of a male-dictated order. The third house
signifies siblings without regard to sex.
According to what I understand, the third house would also be signifying
that older sister of yours (if she is the oldest of your brothers and
sisters), while the fifth, seventh, etc. are those of those next in age.
Note that these house describe your siblings only in a *general* way - how
could it be otherwise, as they each have their own charts which describe
them better than any other chart could.
astropophageous
astropophageous
Michael Rideout <seagt...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message :
20030329225240...@mb-fd.aol.com...
> astropo...@nowhere.com wrote:
>
> > "Michael Rideout" <seagt...@aol.com> wrote in usenet message :
> > 20030329134235...@mb-ct.aol.com...
> > With this little amendment : the 3rd house is your oldest brother, the
5th
> > the next one in age, the 7th the next one, andsoforth.
> > Derived houses to be derived accordingly.
> > There is a French astrologer named Tinia Faery who was very good in this
if
> > my memory serves me well.
> > astropophageous
>
> I've never seen that stated in print-- not that I've *read* everything
that's
> been printed, of course-- but I have tinkered with a similar sort of rule
on my
> own. This is similar to the idea that the 7th House represents the first
> spouse, the 9th House represents the second spouse, the 11th House
represents
> the third spouse, and so on.
Yes, this way of describing spouses was mentioned as well.
>
> However, the way I was tinkering with it is a bit different than the rule
you
> mentioned. I figure that if the 1st House represents the native, then the
3rd
> House might represent the sibling who came *after* the native, the 5th
House
> might represent the sibling who came after that, and so on. For the
siblings
> who are *older* than the native, I went in the opposite direction-- 11th
House
> for the sibling just preceding the native, 9th House for the sibling
before
> that, and so on.
That's not how I understand it. If you do it the way you are describing
here, then you are centering the "sibling" significance on the first house -
your own - in my opinion. The basic "sibling" significance is however
centered on the third - siblings - house. It seems sensical (?!) then to me
to start from that house and take it, if you want to look at them
individually, as your oldest sibling's house.
>
> In general, however, the 3rd House represents *all* of the siblings, just
as
> *all* of the spouses are generally represented by the 7th House. So as a
> general rule, the 7th House (5th from the 3rd) should represent the nieces
and
> nephews taken as a whole.
Yes, I see it that way too.
>
> Now, if we're going to apply the "skipping houses" technique to get
different
> houses for the different siblings, should we also use it to get different
> houses for different children-- 5th House for the first child, 7th House
for
> the second child, 9th House for the third child, and so on?
It seems to make sense, but I don't remember having coming across such a
rule.
>
> Jeri says that the nephew in question is the son of her oldest brother,
who was
> the second child of her parents. Jeri didn't say where *she* fits into
the
> picture (third child? fourth child? etc.), so let's assume that she was
the
> third child. Jeri also didn't say whether the nephew was the first
(oldest)
> child of that brother, or the second child, etc., so let's assume that
he's the
> first child.
>
> Using the technique you mentioned, the nephew in question would be
represented
> by the 9th House (the 5th House-- 3rd from the 3rd-- being the
second-oldest
> sibling, and the 9th House-- 5th from the 5th-- being the first child of
that
> sibling).
I am following you so far.
>
> Using the variation that I mentioned, the nephew in question might be
> represented by the 3rd House (the 11th House being the sibling born just
before
> Jeri, and the 3rd House-- 5th from the 11th-- being the first child of
that
> sibling).
I would be, but as I said, or rather implied, above, I would not use this
method.
>
> Using the rule as you gave it, my younger brother would be represented by
my
> 9th House, because he was the fifth child,
and if he was your fourth sibling.
but I was the fourth child, and we
> would exclude me. Using the variation that I proposed, my younger brother
> would be represented by my 3rd House. I have Pluto in my 3rd House, and
one
> possible interpretation of that is "the death of a sibling," which might
be
> understood to mean *early* in life (i.e., rather than later in life due to
old
> age). The only sibling I've lost so far is my younger brother, who died
from
> an automobile accident while I was 18 years old.
That looks, at a first glance, like it *could* be correct
But was any other of your siblings implicated in some way with this
accident?
For example, was one of your other brother driving the car, or something of
the sort ?
I am asking this because there could be an aspect from Pluto (and other
planets) to a planet in the house signifying your younger brother (the
"classic" way) - the ninth.
Pluto, in this case, would not directly mean "death of a sibling".
astropophageous
Michael Rideout
> Michael Rideout <seagt...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message :
> 20030329225240...@mb-fd.aol.com...
> > However, the way I was tinkering with it is a bit different than the rule
> > you mentioned. I figure that if the 1st House represents the native,
> > then the 3rd House might represent the sibling who came *after* the
> > native, the 5th House might represent the sibling who came after
> > that, and so on. For the siblings who are *older* than the native, I
> > went in the opposite direction-- 11th House for the sibling just
> > preceding the native, 9th House for the sibling before that, and so
> > on.
>
> That's not how I understand it. If you do it the way you are describing
> here, then you are centering the "sibling" significance on the first
> house - your own - in my opinion.
No, this idea is based on the 1st House being associated with the native or
self, and presumes that the native's sibling is like the "second self." And
it's also based on the idea that the 1st House (or an angular house) relates to
the present, the 2nd House to the future, and the 12th House to the past. So
combining those two ideas suggests the possibility that if the 3rd House is
"the self (sibling) that came after the native," then the 11th House is "the
self (sibling) that came before the native." However, what you said may apply,
because if the native has a sibling, then the native *is* a sibling (i.e., of
his or her sibling).
> > Using the rule as you gave it, my younger brother would be
> > represented by my 9th House, because he was the fifth child,
>
> and if he was your fourth sibling.
>
> > but I was the fourth child, and we would exclude me. Using the
> > variation that I proposed, my younger brother would be represented
> > by my 3rd House. I have Pluto in my 3rd House, and one possible
> > interpretation of that is "the death of a sibling," which might be
> > understood to mean *early* in life (i.e., rather than later in life due to
> > old age). The only sibling I've lost so far is my younger brother, who
> > died from an automobile accident while I was 18 years old.
>
> That looks, at a first glance, like it *could* be correct
> But was any other of your siblings implicated in some way with this
> accident?
> For example, was one of your other brother driving the car, or
> something of the sort ?
> I am asking this because there could be an aspect from Pluto (and
> other planets) to a planet in the house signifying your younger brother
> (the "classic" way) - the ninth.
> Pluto, in this case, would not directly mean "death of a sibling".
No, my younger brother was driving, and was alone in the car. There were no
transiting, progressed, or directed planets in my 9th House in aspect to my
natal Pluto. (My Solar-arc directed Chiron was in the 9th House, but was some
5 to 6 degrees past the opposition to my natal Pluto.) It happened when I was
18, and my Solar-arc directed Uranus conjoined my natal Pluto in my 3rd House
that same year, so I definitely associate Pluto in the 3rd House with my
younger brother's death from his sudden accident. Of course, this doesn't
require that we specifically associate the 3rd House with the sibling who came
immediately *after* me, because the 3rd House has an association with siblings
in general.
I referred to this as "my" idea, but that isn't correct. A few years ago,
either during an online chat with other astrologers, or in some messages posted
in an e-mail list, an astrologer had mentioned or asked about this idea, which
she had heard somewhere, but she couldn't recall if the 11th House was the
younger sibling and the 3rd House was the older sibling, or vice versa. That
was the first time I heard about the idea, and I have not heard about it since.
I'm not suggesting that anyone accept the rule on faith, or use it
uncritically; but I mention it in case anyone wants to investigate it
themselves and see if it "pans out."
Michael Rideout
Christine
Michael Rideout <seagt...@aol.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
20030330175611...@mb-fn.aol.com...
[..]
Of course, this doesn't
> require that we specifically associate the 3rd House with the sibling who
came
> immediately *after* me, because the 3rd House has an association with
siblings
> in general.
>
> I referred to this as "my" idea, but that isn't correct. A few years ago,
> either during an online chat with other astrologers, or in some messages
posted
> in an e-mail list, an astrologer had mentioned or asked about this idea,
which
> she had heard somewhere, but she couldn't recall if the 11th House was the
> younger sibling and the 3rd House was the older sibling, or vice versa.
That
> was the first time I heard about the idea, and I have not heard about it
since.
> I'm not suggesting that anyone accept the rule on faith, or use it
> uncritically; but I mention it in case anyone wants to investigate it
> themselves and see if it "pans out."
>
> Michael Rideout
Hi,
If such an idea was relevant to further understanding of the natal chart,
the meaning behind 'sibling' as a third house influence having an effect on
the 3rd house thought and relationship patterns... or vice versa... would
lose its significance. Siblings are joined by the blood and genes that
connect them to ' a family relationship'....3rd house.
There will always be those charts which 'could' confirm alternative ideas of
thought ( I only have to look at my own study !!!), but I think the
exceptional has to become the general to make it acceptable in its
application.
Yet supposing this heard of idea has a foundation of truth.
How does that effect the general (and/or future) third house meaning and
interpretation in a chart?
Do planets in the 3rd house gain or lose their 'sibling' significance?
Will these planets or the sign on the 3rd house cusp only refer to those
siblings younger than one's self? No planets ....no younger siblings?
Does one begin to look at the other houses mentioned and their signs and
planets within them, to see the effect of one's eldest, elder, younger or
youngest siblings with whom one has grown, on one's self; or how one relates
to the relationship one has with them? Looking at it this way, I do have a
very good 'warm, communicative relationship' with my then 11th house Leo
cusp elder sister (albeit she's a Gemini), I think my then 9th house Aries
cusp of a once bossy eldest sister 'is' too religiously inclined whilst, at
the same time surrounding herself in/with luxury( but she is a Cancerian),
and I absolutely 'idolise' my 7th house Pisces on the cusp Leo Big brother,
although I wouldn't want to be married to him :-).
I have Pluto in the 11th house, ruler intercepted Scorpio in 3rd. Using
Michael's reasoning, could this mean that the same 'fate' awaits my elder
sister as Michael's younger brother (his Pluto in 3rd). I hope not,
especially as Pluto is close square my 9th house Mercury.
I have a very ominous looking Solar chart for May 2003 ! Scorpio Ascendant,
Pluto in 1st quincunx Sun, Mercury in 6th exact square Mars-Neptune in 3rd
opp. Jupiter in Leo 9th, and Saturn in Gemini 8th. I tend to think in terms
of my brother's weakening heart.
It is interesting that there is the strong 3rd-9th house and Sun/Leo
significance/reference to siblings abroad, yet Solar Sun 'is' in the 7th of
the 'eldest sibling' in my case.
Regards,
Christine.
Michael Rideout
> Hi,
> If such an idea was relevant to further understanding of the natal chart,
> the meaning behind 'sibling' as a third house influence having an effect on
> the 3rd house thought and relationship patterns... or vice versa... would
> lose its significance. Siblings are joined by the blood and genes that
> connect them to ' a family relationship'....3rd house.
> There will always be those charts which 'could' confirm alternative ideas of
> thought ( I only have to look at my own study !!!), but I think the
> exceptional has to become the general to make it acceptable in its
> application.
[...]
The "skipping houses" technique (which is what I've heard this called-- 7th
House is 1st spouse, 9th House is 2nd spouse, 11th House is 3rd spouse, etc.)--
is definitely used by some astrologers, particularly in certain situations
(perhaps most often in horary astrology). Note that this puts the 4th spouse
in the 1st House; does this mean that the 1st House loses its meaning as "the
native's self"? No, it just gains some additional meanings. The 1st House
also gains meanings from being the 2nd from the 12th, the 3rd from the 11th
("your friends' siblings," for example), the 4th from the 10th, and so on.
Frankly, I like the idea of sticking with the general meanings for most work;
otherwise, you can get lost in an ever-deepening spiral of derived meanings,
especially if you're combining the "counting houses" and the "skipping houses"
techniques. And yes, when every house suddenly has the potential to mean
"siblings" in some obscure way (e.g., "the siblings of your boss's second
wife's oldest sister's third husband's mother's friends"), then it appears to
"cheapen" the meaning of the 3rd House as "siblings." In actuality, however,
these sorts of derived meanings are *based* on the original, basic house
meanings. But unless you're doing something that requires the use of derived
house meanings, it's probably best to stick with the basic meanings-- if only
to hold on to your sanity a little longer! :-)
Michael Rideout
Christine
> The "skipping houses" technique (which is what I've heard this called--
7th
> House is 1st spouse, 9th House is 2nd spouse, 11th House is 3rd spouse,
etc.)--
> is definitely used by some astrologers, particularly in certain situations
> (perhaps most often in horary astrology). Note that this puts the 4th
spouse
> in the 1st House; does this mean that the 1st House loses its meaning as
"the
> native's self"? No, it just gains some additional meanings.
Probably that the person in question has finally met his/her match ? :-)
The 1st House
> also gains meanings from being the 2nd from the 12th, the 3rd from the
11th
> ("your friends' siblings," for example), the 4th from the 10th, and so on.
>
> Frankly, I like the idea of sticking with the general meanings for most
work;
> otherwise, you can get lost in an ever-deepening spiral of derived
meanings,
> especially if you're combining the "counting houses" and the "skipping
houses"
> techniques. And yes, when every house suddenly has the potential to mean
> "siblings" in some obscure way (e.g., "the siblings of your boss's second
> wife's oldest sister's third husband's mother's friends"), then it appears
to
> "cheapen" the meaning of the 3rd House as "siblings."
In actuality, however,
> these sorts of derived meanings are *based* on the original, basic house
> meanings.
That 'is' true; it's amazing what stuff can correlate with the sign on the
10th of the 3rd of the 5th :-)
But unless you're doing something that requires the use of derived
> house meanings, it's probably best to stick with the basic meanings-- if
only
> to hold on to your sanity a little longer! :-)
>
That is one big relief. I was already wondering whether I'd have to enrol
and go back to astro. school yet again :-)
Regards,
Christine.
> Michael Rideout
>