Astrology as art therapy?
Pedantus
To state my point right off, I seriously wonder if astrology can
actually be of any help to anyone who does not become personally
immersed in the art. What's worse, I've more than a sneaking suspicion
that persons already believing themselves to be astrologically aware are
unwilling to journey into a cosmos where Science, Philosophy, Religion,
and Art are in essence indistinguishable from one another...they are all
at some point merely human "psycho-babble". Perhaps only via the
safety of entertaining and necessarily simplistic fictions do we "boldly
go where no man has gone before." To those few who cannot simply turn
off the boob tube and satisfyingly return to the kitchen for a piece of
cold pizza, you have my sincere heartfelt wishes for a successful voyage
and a safe return to a world that is still recognizable....:)
For those who are impressed by name dropping, (or merely find me a
more valid person for playing that game...:), I once had a substantive
telephone conversation (well two, actually) with Rick Tarnas, the author
of, "The Passion of the Western Mind: Understanding the ideas that have
shaped our world view".
http://www.ciis.edu/faculty/tarnas.html
In the days before the internet, I had sent via snail mail some of
early collection of children's drawings and my comparison to their natal
charts, and told him I was interested primarily in astrology as a type
of therapy for "some people". He told me he liked the drawing
comparisons very much, that he understood what I was getting at, and
that he would keep them around in odd chance someone comes along who may
find such an esoteric concept an asset to some broader idea...something
along that line. (But I really don't need much more affirmation than
this, it's plenty...:)
This was pretty much the same experience I had with Jungian
psychologist, Gregg M. Furth, the author of, "The Secret World of
Drawings:Healing Through Art" I phoned him at his Manhattan office; he
told me how busy he was: I said, "I have something to teach." and that
led to a meeting one Xmas eve, a rare window of opportunity. He reached
behind something and unrolled the original drawing that is on the cover
of his book:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3530249092/artvisitwww/302-1433583
-2773623
and I showed him the one's I had brought as chart comparisons. We
agreed that the psyche *can sometimes* project very individual
information in drawings. All the time hoping to teach a disciple of CG
Jung's ghost just how valuable the natal chart of astrology is as a
decoder of projected Self symbolisms, (and I would willing walk through
fire for a chance to teach Jung himself), I had to grasp the really that
I was talking with a Capricorn with a Virgo Asc. who was wholly devoted
to the topic of death and dying, and disciplining himself, resisting any
further entanglements with abstract symbolism's for the sake of his
individual development. Gregg kindly informed me that we all may
"become pregnant" but the demanding task of rearing and nurturing one's
"brain children" takes one's whole life..."this your baby, I can't adopt
it even if I wanted to." he said. To paraphrase, these dubious gifts
and the challenges of their development are probably meant to task the
individual, to stimulate and facilitate growth--self actualization. Its
true, Gregg should not stop being who he is and become a Jungian
astrologer, or something to that effect..he gets into some pretty weird
controversy without astrology's help:
"[..]Furth was a Jungian analyst who in 1988 had published a
well-regarded and often-cited book, The Secret World of Drawings, which
analyzed the artwork of children dying of leukemia for clues to their
subconscious (many apparently knew exactly when they were going to die).
[..]"
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/00/04/news-ciotti.shtml
Thanks,
Rog
Heather
completely. One has to have that type of blending capacity to begin with.
One can be completely immersed in art and the art of astrology.
I see art in every wink of an eye but then there's good reason for that
in my chart. Does one exist separate from astrology or do they
breathe it and exhale it knowing that what we witness and experience
on any level whatsoever is always a blend of being, knowing,and
a synchronistic life that either scares the hell out of people
or they bask in the warmth of knowing it all is connected .
If one has Tr. Jupiter in Gemini sextile their natal Venus in Leo
does one have to sit and ponder 72 meanings
or can you simply "know" that some foreign Gemini who loves art
may wonder into your life ;-) ....and he simply "appears" out
of thin air? Merging with astrology is like merging with art to me.
Only those that suck the sweet marrow from works of art could
possibly understand how one merges with art as well as an artform
like astrology. I do not look at astrology as if it were a biochem midterm.
Soaking in astrology is like taking a bath with oils ,where the beads
slowly but surely pervade your skin cells. It's people that can equate
astrology to this experience that don't have to rack their brains,
it just comes to them as easily as getting into a Van Gogh
or a Renoir.
Many times I have noticed you making cracks that you cannot
predict with astrology. I would assume you are being sarcastic
because of course one can.
It seems rather odd that someone
that would make a crack that you cannot predict astrology would
also speak of "merging" or being one with anything. We all choose our
palettes that we paint with. I liken analyzing charts to painting...
that would be a good creative exercise... look at anyone's chart
and immediately grab a brush and put it to canvas... the colors you choose
the strokes that one uses .....I would bet you could see the symbolism
when the creation was done if compared to the chart of the native.
I thought I would verbally "float" freestyle in the paragraphs above to confuse the
hell out of people hahahaha. Only certain people will grasp an understanding
of anything I wrote... and is hardly for the "detached heart" to try and digest. ;-)
Heather
"There is nothing more tragic than having to use binoculars to see
the flame of a stricken match that lies between one's fingers"
Pedantus <rlsat...@exotrope.net> wrote in message news:sCYd6.1$esZ....@news.randori.com...
Paul Reeder
"Heather" wrote:
> Roger some people are not capable of "merging" with anything
> completely. One has to have that type of blending capacity to begin
with.
Those who have that type of blending capacity have already learned it.
The rest are faced with the mystery and the challenge of mastery.
Progress, from any state, is possible. I respectfully disagree on this
point.
> One can be completely immersed in art and the art of astrology.
> I see art in every wink of an eye but then there's good reason for
that
> in my chart. Does one exist separate from astrology or do they
> breathe it and exhale it knowing that what we witness and experience
> on any level whatsoever is always a blend of being, knowing,and
> a synchronistic life that either scares the hell out of people
> or they bask in the warmth of knowing it all is connected .
Astrology is a system of symbols too many live without. It is based
upon and representative of the unifying principal of creation -
vibration. We breath in and exhale, thus sharing, and more, the
space-time vibrations of personal placement, in an infinite singular sea
of living light juice. There is no seperation save that conjured in the
mind.
I bask. Here in Tucson, even when its cold, its warm. I still bitch.
> If one has Tr. Jupiter in Gemini sextile their natal Venus in Leo
> does one have to sit and ponder 72 meanings
> or can you simply "know" that some foreign Gemini who loves art
> may wonder into your life ;-) ....and he simply "appears" out
> of thin air? Merging with astrology is like merging with art to me.
I don't know about art, but every so often I catch a wave of some sort
and just have to blow a sax and no other words will do, even though the
sax only comes close.
> Only those that suck the sweet marrow from works of art could
> possibly understand how one merges with art as well as an artform
> like astrology.
Sweet marrow of the soul on the astrologer's palate, disdaining the
flesh for a more sublime slime....
> I do not look at astrology as if it were a biochem midterm.
No? OOOOppppppssssss.
> Soaking in astrology is like taking a bath with oils ,where the beads
> slowly but surely pervade your skin cells.
brain cells.....
> It's people that can equate
> astrology to this experience that don't have to rack their brains,
> it just comes to them as easily as getting into a Van Gogh
> or a Renoir.
Or easier maybe........
> Many times I have noticed you making cracks that you cannot
> predict with astrology. I would assume you are being sarcastic
> because of course one can.
You, or anyone, CAN predict. And then, we can be wrong, or right, or
somewhere in between....
> It seems rather odd that someone
> that would make a crack that you cannot predict astrology would
> also speak of "merging" or being one with anything. We all choose our
> palettes that we paint with. I liken analyzing charts to painting...
> that would be a good creative exercise... look at anyone's chart
> and immediately grab a brush and put it to canvas... the colors you
choose
> the strokes that one uses .....I would bet you could see the symbolism
> when the creation was done if compared to the chart of the native.
I have had this dream where I put someone's natal chart on my music
stand and then, through my sax, played it. In the dream I knew the
right keys and what sort of rhythms and melodies would fit the chart,
oh God, what ecstasy....... the bliss of sonic union..........
Sadly, awake and sober, I am too ashamed by my inadequacy (both
musically and astrologically) to try, yet...... Someday though.......
It is a dream, I'll not give it up.
> I thought I would verbally "float" freestyle in the paragraphs above
to confuse the
> hell out of people hahahaha.
Verbally we float and synch.
> Only certain people will grasp an understanding
> of anything I wrote... and is hardly for the "detached heart" to try
and digest. ;-)
Me too busy in grok mode to understand anything........
Paul Reeder
Heather
Heather
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <t7i2beb...@corp.supernews.com>, "Paul Reeder"
<ree...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>Hey Heather, Hey Rog, Hey Everybody,
>
>"Heather" wrote: [to Rog]
>
[........]
>
>> Many times I have noticed you making cracks that you cannot
>> predict with astrology. I would assume you are being sarcastic
>> because of course one can.
>
[Paul wrote]
>You, or anyone, CAN predict. And then, we can be wrong, or right, or
>somewhere in between....
[........]
Yes, that's right, but Pedantus was pontificating about predicting
with some degree of certainty I think.
Theoretically we could all do brain surgery too.
Ray
>Paul Reeder
>
>
Sharyn0761
:-D Now that's poetry.
<< I have had this dream where I put someone's natal chart on my music
stand and then, through my sax, played it. In the dream I knew the
right keys and what sort of rhythms and melodies would fit the chart,
oh God, what ecstasy....... the bliss of sonic union....... >>
Hey! I have similar dreams, only in mine, I play the charts on a huge keyboard,
and they sound like "Close Encounters Of The Third Kind." When there are
conjunctions everything lights up and shakes down the mountains, LOL! And for
some reason, I am always looking for a violin (I do not play, yet, but have
been cruising music shops for a year now looking for one and playing with the
idea of learning to play.) because I am convinced thay will sound even better
that way.
Sharyn
aam archive/FAQ site: http://www.dreamwater.net/acarchives
:-) Love is a verb.
Pete Phoenix
and evidence, if any were needed, of how deeply in touch you are with
your (Moon conjunct Venus ) trine ( Uranus conjunct Neptune ) in your
5th harmonic chart :
"...Merging with astrology is like merging with art to me...."
Perfick! :-)
Pete
http://vaultofheaven.faithweb.com/
"I will have poetry in my life. And adventure. And Love.
...love that overthrows life. Unbiddable, ungovernable.,
like a riot in the heart, and nothing to be done, come ruin or
rapture."
Pete Phoenix
>I have had this dream where I put someone's natal chart on my music
>stand and then, through my sax, played it. In the dream I knew the
>right keys and what sort of rhythms and melodies would fit the chart,
> God, what ecstasy....... the bliss of sonic union..........
Yo Paul!
You wanna try drumming a chart!
Man, I tell ya, a Venus/Moon trine rockin' on an 8-piece Ludwig,
side-by-side with a Mars/ Pluto square *really* tells it like it is!
Let's jam sometime bro'!
"Sonic Union" : great name for a band! :-)
Paul Reeder
"Ray Murphy" <ray...@box.net.au> wrote:
> Yes, that's right, but Pedantus was pontificating about predicting
> with some degree of certainty I think.
Certainty, astrology, prediction. Potentially volitile mix. Handle with
care.........
Paul Reeder
Paul Reeder
"Heather" wrote:
> hehehe Paul ;-) hey I wanna have some sax!
Nothing better than a little sweet sax!
Paul Reeder
"Pete Phoenix" <phoen...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Yo Paul!
> You wanna try drumming a chart!
> Man, I tell ya, a Venus/Moon trine rockin' on an 8-piece Ludwig,
> side-by-side with a Mars/ Pluto square *really* tells it like it is!
> Let's jam sometime bro'!
> "Sonic Union" : great name for a band! :-)
I love hand drums too, and aboriginal didgeridu's and local Sonoran
Desert Dream Pipes! You can mark me down for it! I do play in a local
improv duo +friends called Sound Temple. (We had to change the name
from Venus Envy)
Paul Reeder
Heather
Heather
Pete Phoenix <phoen...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
Pete Phoenix
>Hey Pete,
>I love hand drums too, and aboriginal didgeridu's and local Sonoran
>Desert Dream Pipes! You can mark me down for it! I do play in a local
>improv duo +friends called Sound Temple. (We had to change the name
>from Venus Envy)
>Paul Reeder
Hey Paul,
"Venus Envy" hahaha! love it! I'd have kept that one, bro' :-)
I've got an authentic "Izigubu" (sp?) ceremonial Zulu drum, and like you
I love the didgeridu!
Just wouldn't have the wind to play it :-)
I think the didgeridu is very Neptunian, while the Izigubu feels and
sounds Plutonian. Just the thing for releasing all that base chakra grud
without nuking the neighbourhood! haha!!
Pete
Pedantus
"Heather" <fempr...@nospammhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sb6e6.1317$g42.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Roger some people are not capable of "merging" with anything
> completely.
Lets hope not, that sounds like the dissolution of the vital
ego--all materialistic existence sacrificed in favor of the
insulating/isolating O-zone of wholly abstract Ideals.
"[..] ..been to the desert on a horse with no name..[..]"
<reluctant snip>
> Many times I have noticed you making cracks that you cannot
> predict with astrology. I would assume you are being sarcastic
> because of course one can.
> It seems rather odd that someone
> that would make a crack that you cannot predict astrology would
> also speak of "merging" or being one with anything. We all choose our
> palettes that we paint with. I liken analyzing charts to painting...
> that would be a good creative exercise... look at anyone's chart
> and immediately grab a brush and put it to canvas... the colors you
choose
> the strokes that one uses .....I would bet you could see the symbolism
> when the creation was done if compared to the chart of the native.
Yes, I've been exceedly lucky or perhaps rather on to something
valuable to everyone...eventually.
But I fear the the "picture" we astrologers paint for others as we
"read" a natal chart will always be, by necessity, and expressive but
surreal, abstract, impressionism. I'm certain from your previous
insightful comments that you are aware that only the native can paint a
self-portrait worth displaying.
The main problem with natives as would-be self-expressive
life-artists is that our culture puts an extremely overrated value on
photographic realism, i.e., "prediction"...the "gimme the details"
craving, which only expresses the avoidance of Self that brought them to
the astrologer in the first place--a hiding from all legitimately
authoritative-seeming opinions. For the dabbler, and all clients seem
to be the most shameless dilatantes, this "chart reading" activity
doomed to failure by the clients own designs. I have not experienced a
"client" that is willing to face the music without calling it a windy
noise....or the natal chart, as poetic image, but it is somewhat
scornfully charged with being nothing but a distorted, unflattering
photograph. *If* you don't deliver the *objectively* baseless
"predictions" on dedmand. Astrology is an Art mainly due to the fact
that is is an extention of Science, not an alternative authority with
equal objectivity. Rational objectivity does not support the existence
of *dependable* astrological prediction. I, for one, choose not lie to
myself about something that is very dear and important to me...even if
I'm just another obnoxious, reformed abuser of objective facts...:)
>
> I thought I would verbally "float" freestyle in the paragraphs above
to confuse the
> hell out of people hahahaha. Only certain people will grasp an
understanding
> of anything I wrote... and is hardly for the "detached heart" to try
and digest. ;-)
I guess that I selfishly write as if I cast the reader in my own
image...looking always for myself maybe, but I consider this implied
assumption as a supreme compliment..an optimism, and an act of
faith...:) I don't mind finding my confusions by having others point
them out...what are we here for...:)?
Rog
Pedantus
"Paul Reeder" <ree...@azstarnet.com> wrote in message
news:t7i2beb...@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Heather, Hey Rog, Hey Everybody,
<very reluctant snip>
[Paul wrote]:
"[..]I have had this dream where I put someone's natal chart on my music
stand and then, through my sax, played it. In the dream I knew the
right keys and what sort of rhythms and melodies would fit the chart,
oh God, what ecstasy....... the bliss of sonic union..........
Sadly, awake and sober, I am too ashamed by my inadequacy (both
musically and astrologically) to try, yet...... Someday though.......
It is a dream, I'll not give it up.[..]"
Hi, Paul,
I wish to learn about the role of natal Uranus in this instance
(above). My imppression is something like my brothers chart, and so, a
prior experience seems a confounding bias.
I was thinking that the Sax is a Uranus type of sound, a razz made
musical with the help of Neptune, et al. So, are we hearing in your
words a Saturn restriction being expressed, and a Moon in aspect as
well? What does an image of a chart atop a music say about the psyche as
it projects this archetypal image as a Self-portrait?
On another note...:) I think it is instructive to observe natal
Uranus' situation in the chart of Bill Clinton. Uranus trine
Jupiter--Sun at their midpoint, seems a tempting parallel of the
non-verbal image he apparently can't resist projecting when people are
socializing in party mode. How Solar looking is the large golden circle
that outputs the dubiuosly control noise/music..:)
We need not confine ourselve to Freud's rather narrower limits of
imagination...or maybe we should see an compulsively exposed phalis
there...LOL....:)
Thanks,
Rog
>
> Paul Reeder
>
>
Paul Reeder
How have you been, man?
"Pedantus" <rlsat...@exotrope.net> wrote:
> I wish to learn about the role of natal Uranus in this instance
> (above). My imppression is something like my brothers chart, and so, a
> prior experience seems a confounding bias.
> I was thinking that the Sax is a Uranus type of sound, a razz made
> musical with the help of Neptune, et al. So, are we hearing in your
> words a Saturn restriction being expressed, and a Moon in aspect as
> well? What does an image of a chart atop a music say about the psyche
as
> it projects this archetypal image as a Self-portrait?
Here is an image of my chart - interlaced gif, give it time to
load.......
http://www.azstarnet.com/~reeder/natal.gif
In the mean time I'll tell you it is conjunct my chart ruler, Jupiter.
Truly, a Uranian instrument. First made by Adolph Sax, the sun of a
traditional instrument maker from Belgium. The material of a trumpet,
the mouthpiece and reed of a clarinet, somewhat modified, and the
geometry of an oboe, the sax was and act of rebellion against his
father. Cracks me up to think about it! Made 'respectable' by jazz a
totally rebellious and relatively experimental free form of music.
My Moon is in Capricorn, Saturn has other strong influences, Saturn and
Uranus are in a wide out of sign square, but linked by Venus which is in
aspect to both.
> On another note...:) I think it is instructive to observe natal
> Uranus' situation in the chart of Bill Clinton. Uranus trine
> Jupiter--Sun at their midpoint, seems a tempting parallel of the
> non-verbal image he apparently can't resist projecting when people are
> socializing in party mode. How Solar looking is the large golden
circle
> that outputs the dubiuosly control noise/music..:)
Bill Clinton is something else isn't he. I am a Virgo and he is a Leo,
so I should make space for him to be a show off and all. But really,
the guy needs to spend some time in a closet with his horn and work up
some chops if he is going to stand up on the world stage and blow!
Gotta give him credit for having eggs that hang done past his knees, but
where's the taste? Maybe that's what he'll do now that he is
unemployed. His Christmas album would sell in the millions!!!!!
In contrast to Bill, my Virgo Sun is at the midpoing of Jupiter and
Saturn, making a septile aspect to each. Sun is not septile to Uranus
as about 4° separate Jupiter and Uranus.
> We need not confine ourselve to Freud's rather narrower limits of
> imagination...or maybe we should see an compulsively exposed phalis
> there...LOL....:)
For what ever reason, I do enjoy putting it in my mouth and blowing a
fine sound. The sensuality is amazing. And if I can get in the certain
space, its downright sexual. Though the sexuality of music includes
physical sexuality (obviously), yet transcends it to include
trance-formative energies of a more sublime nature.
Right now, my teeth hurt and thats a bit subdued. Once I finish the
tons of dental work needed, I am hoping the pleasure returns.......
Paul Reeder
Pedantus
> Hey Roger,
>
> How have you been, man?
>
> "Pedantus" <rlsat...@exotrope.net> wrote:
>
>
> > I wish to learn about the role of natal Uranus in this instance
> > (above). My imppression is something like my brothers chart, and so,
a
> > prior experience seems a confounding bias.
I want to respond to post properly..gotta run though...:(
I just wanted to say that the confounding influence scrambling my
memory (like double vision) was not my brother's chart , but my
sister's. She has made quite a recovery from her *clinical* (Kwaw...:)
paranoid schizophrenia, down to just one psychotropic:
http://www.geocities.com/pedantus/darlen_s.gif
Do you recall anyone who shares the Sept 9th variety of your
chart? Not that a chart causes schizophrenia, rather, the details of a
healthy chart twin, and coping techniques (whatever) which succeed in
expressing this chart, as formula potentials, may be
instructive...thanks, very much..:) (See ya Monday, I guess..:)
Rog
Pedantus
> Hey Roger,
>
<snip>
> Here is an image of my chart - interlaced gif, give it time to
> load.......
>
> http://www.azstarnet.com/~reeder/natal.gif
>
> In the mean time I'll tell you it is conjunct my chart ruler, Jupiter.
> Truly, a Uranian instrument. First made by Adolph Sax, the sun of a
> traditional instrument maker from Belgium. The material of a trumpet,
> the mouthpiece and reed of a clarinet, somewhat modified, and the
> geometry of an oboe, the sax was and act of rebellion against his
> father. Cracks me up to think about it! Made 'respectable' by jazz
a
> totally rebellious and relatively experimental free form of music.
Paul,
I found this data at:
http://thenewage.com/resources/lore/astro_search.asp?orig=
Sax, Adolphe (Antoine)
Date: 1814 11 06
Place: DINANT/B (Long: 004E55'00, Lat: 50N16'00)
Might be something to this Jup/Ur blending which = a big reedy
noise...:)
Jupiter (Lib) Sex (Sag) Uranus - orb: -0:07'
Sun (Sco) Qui (Cap) Saturn - orb: -0:18
Mars (Lib) Inc [Pis] Pluto - orb: -1:31
All his other natal aspect are pretty wide by comparison.
http://www.geocities.com/pedantus/sax_adolph.gif
> My Moon is in Capricorn, Saturn has other strong influences, Saturn
and
> Uranus are in a wide out of sign square, but linked by Venus which is
in
> aspect to both.
Adolph Sax has a wide Venus(Sco)-/-Saturn(Cap) square...his Venus is
conjunct yours...:)
<snip>.......
>
> Paul Reeder
Thanks,
Rog