Michael Jackson-whadaya think?
Victoria
8-29-58
12:00 pm
Gary Indiana
Looks like ol Pluto is conjunct Saturn, upcoming Uranus oppose Sun and
I think I recall Neptune squaring ascendant. Ideas?
Victoria
from beautiful El Granada
Christine
"Victoria" <rave...@aol.comnospam> schreef in bericht
news:20031120170907...@mb-m11.aol.com...
Hi Victoria,
My data base gives a birth time of 06.54 CST.
Virgo Asc; Gemini MC. Mercury in 11th.
Tr. Uranus will oppose the Sun-Pluto in 12th (Placidus) which itself opposes
the Pisces Moon. He literally lives as a Peter Pan in a fairy-tale world,
which is his way of surviving life. He'll be as a lamb going to the
slaughter as every stone is turned to get a conviction. The 12th house
secret enemies are probably not only those in power but also the Sun-Pluto
people seeking a fat pay off for their silence.
Tr. Neptune in 5th opposes Uranus in Leo 11th.
Neptune is modern ruler of Descendant of open enemies. His enemies are out
to personally crucify him because they do not understand the nature of his
whacky ways. Isn't VE-UR in the 11th indicative of purely platonic
relationships based upon friendship rather than intimacy?
Tr. Pluto is conjunct Saturn in the 3rd.
Saturn is part of a grand trine with Venus in 11th (and at a pinch Mercury)
and, just by coincidence, BML on 21* Aries in the 8th. I have found that
BML in Aries in a male chart often indicates a deep inner feeling of lack of
manhood. In Aries in the 8th house, it doesn't take much imagination to see
where any problems regarding one's manhood may lie. BML trine Saturn appears
to indicate living within one's conscience ( see Pat Alfano's thread about
her hubby's SU-NE-ME conjunction. He also has BML trine Saturn.) as things
'ought to be done'.
I also think that the strong Virgo emphasis is indicative of his obsession
towards hygiene and cleanliness. Would such a person have pedofile
tendancies?
I find it coincidental that, as Lilith has moved into Gemini, the dirty
minds are at work. In the 9th house of legal suits and soon to square the
Sun-Pluto in 12th, he is not going to be spared. Those minds will crawl
under any rock to find anything that vaguely resembles a hidden room. I
believe it will be found, yet again, that things are not what they appear to
be on the surface. Jackson is a very complex individual but it doesn't make
him a pervert. I think his Jupiter lawyer will clear his name when BML
crosses the MC and trines Jupiter, and tr.Jupiter trines the 9th house Mars,
ruler of the 8th house, before it crosses the Asc. When Jupiter cojoins
itself in the 2nd house, that is when it'll probably cost him an arm and a
leg in legal fees :-). The stigma of the black reputation in the world won't
be so easy to wash off.
I feel sorry for him.
Also note that prog. Moon is into Scorpio in his 2nd house. What more proof
is necessary that it's about money again.
Have a good weekend.
Regards,
Christine.
Mimi Wings99
>From: "Christine" a.h...@planet.nl
Hi,
According to Noel Tyl Michael's birthtime is 11:43 PM EST Gary IN.
He has 14 Gem rising and his natal Moon at 17 of Pisces. Today he has Mars
conj his Moon and Jupiter opp his Moon (trouble with the law and the public.
Also T. Pluto has been sqr his Moon for some time (deep seated emotional
problems that need to be address also changes in the home environment). Aside
from the fact that t. Pluto hit Saturn (total breakdown in his structure).
With these transits many things he has valued will be taken away from him. I
pray he gets help as I believe he is an extremely sensitive individual who
really loves children. Of course, he is a little weird but I hope he hasn't
done anything wrong to any of the children. Mars in the 12th would indicate
something hidden in regard to sex as it is sqr his Mercury which is the ruler
of his asc.
Mimi ^v^
Libralove
on 11/20/03 6:36 PM:
> Hi Victoria,
> My data base gives a birth time of 06.54 CST.
> Virgo Asc; Gemini MC. Mercury in 11th.
It was CDT in that county on 8/29/58 Time Zone #18 from The American Atlas.
So...
He SHOULD be 24AQ rising w/10Sag MC. -- LL
Libralove
Libr...@austin.rr.com wrote on 11/20/03 7:37 PM:
Oh...Okay. Military time is 6:54 am CDT and that is 12Virgo rising and
9Gemini on the MC. Exactly on the Eclipse point of May 31 of 9 Gemini!
Christine gave an excellent analysis, but what you need to also do is look
it his natal, SAD to the May 31 eclipse and then that eclipse and then the
SAD to Nov 8th eclipse and that Eclipse overlay.
So have the natal, the SADs and the eclipses for 2 tri-wheels. It will be
amazing to see, I betcha!!
Best -- LL
Christine
"Mimi Wings99" <mimiw...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20031120202824...@mb-m23.aol.com...
Hi Mimi,
I don't have time at this moment but will certainly put up that 11.43 pm
chart over the weekend.
Saturn appears to make no severe contacts in his chart other than the 45* to
Neptune(thinking from memory)?
So I am still inclined to think that the Pluto transit over Saturn will try
to undermine/overthrow his own inner authority of what is right and wrong
and how far (Sagittarius) his conscience allows him to go.
Best regards,
Christine.
Christine
"Libralove" <Libr...@austin.rr.com> schreef in bericht
news:BBE2E0F6.455C%Libr...@austin.rr.com...
[..]> Christine gave an excellent analysis,
Thanks for the compliment but I'd be interested to read other people's takes
on his chart.
Is he a scapegoat? Going from how I look at his chart, I can't believe
there's evil of the kind he's accused in him.
Do others pick up on a different story?
but what you need to also do is look
> it his natal, SAD to the May 31 eclipse and then that eclipse and then the
> SAD to Nov 8th eclipse and that Eclipse overlay.
>
> So have the natal, the SADs and the eclipses for 2 tri-wheels. It will be
> amazing to see, I betcha!!
>
What does SAD mean, please ?
Could you give your ideas of what the effect of the eclipses mean ?
Regards,
Christine.
> Best -- LL
>
>
Libralove
5th TIME DURING INTERNET RUSH HOUR!
in article bpknlm$5gk$1...@reader10.wxs.nl, Christine at a.h...@planet.nl wrote
on 11/21/03 3:58 AM:
SAD = Solar Arc Directed. Pluto is on his SAD Neptune conj N. Saturn right
now and Neptune is applying to exact to the Saturn in the second house of
money, if the birth time is correct.
Saturn/Pluto = Neptune is falsehood, lies, frauds, the desire to harm others
secretly, OR immorality, instability.
So it is hard to know who is doing what to whom. Neptune is moving into
exact with the Saturn, while Pluto transits over the same point.
Neptune/Saturn = Pluto is a serious illness.
The eclipses before a major event in one's life are often very telling.
MRideout showed the natal, the SAD and then the transits for Roy Horn and it
was more telling than the Sec. Progressed.
The last time I married in 1984, the eclipse was on my Uranus at 10 Gemini
ruler of my 7th house (Aqu). I married a man 20 years my junior a few months
later -- a man I had never met previously. He had an Aquarian Sun.
Mercury (ruler of my Uranus) is very young and Uranus is anything unusual
(much older or much younger). So I guess it is much younger men. Oh darn!
LOL
Best -- LL
Astrology Cycles
news:20031120202824...@mb-m23.aol.com...
> According to Noel Tyl Michael's birthtime is 11:43 PM EST Gary IN.
Hi
I was wondering if yourself and Christine could shed some light on where
these birthdata are from, in terms of their original source?
e.g. does Noel Tyl credit his source or does he just state the data?
We need to know where the data is actually from before we can use it with
any measure of confidence.
Thanks in advance
Mimi Wings99
Hi,
According to Newscope from 12/23/02 Michael Wolfstar writes......"Data
according to Noel Tyl which he obtained from a Jackson spokesperson; other
references give a birth time of 7:45 AM."
I orginally had the birthtime @ 7:45 AM EDT in Gary, IN.....but it was so long
ago I can't remember who gave it to me. ;-)
So who knows? I'll leave it to you to figure it out. LOL
Mimi ^v^
Astrology Cycles
Thanks for the extra information. The world of birthdata is a bit of a
nightmare isn't it.
"Mimi Wings99" <mimiw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031121143526...@mb-m28.aol.com...
Victoria
Christine
>
> 5th TIME DURING INTERNET RUSH HOUR!
>
Hi LL,
Are you pressing some wrong buttons or something ? :-)
[..]
> SAD = Solar Arc Directed. Pluto is on his SAD Neptune conj N. Saturn right
> now and Neptune is applying to exact to the Saturn in the second house of
> money, if the birth time is correct.
>
I can't see the same as you do, LL.
The natal Neptune-Pluto aspect will always remain a sextile in any S.A.
chart, surely, although *transiting* Pluto has cojoined the S.A. Neptune to
N.
Saturn.
> Saturn/Pluto = Neptune is falsehood, lies, frauds, the desire to harm
others
> secretly, OR immorality, instability.
But wouldn't this side of the aspect be visible if part of a harsh or hard
aspect?
S.A Neptune is still approx.3 years away from the conjunction with Saturn.
At present, it's linked in trine to Venus in Leo. That doesn't seem
physical; more like the adoration of a god.
Tr. Pluto will have effected that too, won't it?
S.A. Jupiter is applying trine to Uranus. In the natal chart Venus and
Jupiter are in an exact Quintile. That's a positive force too, isn't it?
The whole 'platonic' Venus-Uranus conjunction theme is therefore highlighted
in a positive way, imho, UNLESS it's the square to Mars in Taurus that makes
it physical. S.A Mars in Cancer is now semi-square its natal placing but
doesn't aspect anything else. And Mars in Cancer can truly work on the
imagination....from one who lives with it :-)....but it doesn't prove a
thing.
> So it is hard to know who is doing what to whom. Neptune is moving into
> exact with the Saturn, while Pluto transits over the same point.
>
> Neptune/Saturn = Pluto is a serious illness.
>
Could be he needs a new nose job :-)
> The eclipses before a major event in one's life are often very telling.
>
Tell me about it :-)
The 1999 total eclipse exact on my 12th house Jupiter coincided with when I
first heard of Black Moon Lilith. And we all know where THAT led to :-)
The May 31st annular eclipse would only be relevant if the 6.54 chart were
used, natal Moon on 8.59 Pisces, wouldn't it?
I don't see it effecting anything else. I get a 24 Virgo Asc. and 23*58
Gemini MC.
CST = +6 hours GMT. Is that right?
The lunar eclipse of 8 Nov. picked up the S.A.Neptune-Pluto. But if it is
the Moon that is shadowed by the Earth, i.e. manifestation, wouldn't this
refer to people's feelings about something being shadowed by the actual
facts?
(I'm not familar with how eclipses work so I try to put the phenomena into
an astro. perspective :-) )
> MRideout showed the natal, the SAD and then the transits for Roy Horn and
it
> was more telling than the Sec. Progressed.
Now I know who Roy Horn is, I'll look up the post on Google.
I find that S.A. aspects seem to reflect the people/events in the current
chapter of one's life, whilst the sec. progr. refer to the general plot of
the whole book :-)
Regards,
Christine.
Christine
"Astrology Cycles" <astroNOlo...@AhotmailM.com> schreef in bericht
news:bplef7$38v$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi
>
> I was wondering if yourself and Christine could shed some light on where
> these birthdata are from, in terms of their original source?
>
> e.g. does Noel Tyl credit his source or does he just state the data?
>
> We need to know where the data is actually from before we can use it with
> any measure of confidence.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
I have Astrolab for Windows 2,1 which contains a database of approx. 2500
names.
The source for M. Jackson is given as PP, but I have no idea what this
means; Sorry.
I guess one could also check the many astro. websites that provide data
info.
I think the 6.54 chart has a lot going for it right now. The fact that
Jackson is again involved in legalities with sexual overtones fits a Saturn
in intercepted Sagittarius with Scorpio on the 3rd house cusp, that is now
overshadowed by transiting Pluto. The authority out to get him fits the
bill. The 12th house Sun 'could' be associated with incarceration but if it
ever happens, I wouldn't particularly give him much chance of/will for
survival with Pluto conjunct the Sun in the birth chart.
If the 7.45 time is used, the Sun-Pluto moves into the 11th house
(Placidus). The 12th house is empty. Do you find this acceptable, knowing
the many reasons why Whacko Jacko gained such a name ? :-) It doesn't seem
to fit all that is known about him.
Regards,
Christine.
Mimi Wings99
Thanks Victoria, now we can remain confused for the rest of our lives....;-)
The reason I thought the time given by Michael Wolfstar was pretty accurate is
that transiting Mars was 1 degree away from his Moon on Nov. 20, in the 10th
house of public image, when this whole thing became public. Michael says that
there was a typo on his NewsScope of 12/24/02 and the time should have been
11:53 PM instead of 11:43 PM. So like one singer said "Be Happy, don't Worry"
and have fun trying to rectify his chart.
Love & Sunshine,
Mimi ^v^
Libralove
on 11/22/03 5:29 PM:
>
> "Libralove" <Libr...@austin.rr.com> schreef in bericht
> news:BBE39016.4595%Libr...@austin.rr.com...
>>
>> 5th TIME DURING INTERNET RUSH HOUR!
>>
>
> Hi LL,
> Are you pressing some wrong buttons or something ? :-)
I think it has to do with my posting at 9am CDT (10am EDT) and 4pm CDT (5pm)
a lot. You ought to see those internet servers go wild shoveling all that
e-mail at those times!
>
> [..]
>
>> SAD = Solar Arc Directed. Pluto is on his SAD Neptune conj N. Saturn right
>> now and Neptune is applying to exact to the Saturn in the second house of
>> money, if the birth time is correct.
>>
>
> I can't see the same as you do, LL.
> The natal Neptune-Pluto aspect will always remain a sextile in any S.A.
> chart, surely, although *transiting* Pluto has cojoined the S.A. Neptune to
> N.
> Saturn.
Uhh... yeah. I thought that is what I said. Was I speaking in Yiddish or
somethin..? :)
>
>> Saturn/Pluto = Neptune is falsehood, lies, frauds, the desire to harm
> others
>> secretly, OR immorality, instability.
>
> But wouldn't this side of the aspect be visible if part of a harsh or hard
> aspect?
No, in cosmobiology. There is no softness in Saturn/Pluto = Neptune. :I
> S.A Neptune is still approx.3 years away from the conjunction with Saturn.
2.19 degrees, so for my money it is being felt and by the time they have the
trial... Pluto will have moved on, SA Neptune will be on top of Saturn.
And T. Neptune will be opp N. Uranus and Uranus will oppose his Pluto and
Sun. AND if this chart is correct then all this is going to happen in the
12th. A prison break from a private helicopter? lol
> At present, it's linked in trine to Venus in Leo. That doesn't seem
> physical; more like the adoration of a god.
> Tr. Pluto will have effected that too, won't it?
The Pluto trine should surely help, but Pluto sitting on top of Saturn is no
picnic even with the trine!!
>
> S.A. Jupiter is applying trine to Uranus. In the natal chart Venus and
> Jupiter are in an exact Quintile. That's a positive force too, isn't it?
> The whole 'platonic' Venus-Uranus conjunction theme is therefore highlighted
> in a positive way, imho, UNLESS it's the square to Mars in Taurus that makes
> it physical. S.A Mars in Cancer is now semi-square its natal placing but
> doesn't aspect anything else. And Mars in Cancer can truly work on the
> imagination....from one who lives with it :-)....but it doesn't prove a
> thing.
>
Yeah, his natal Jupiter con Neptune is trining Venus and Uranus natally and
it is likely what got him into trouble in the first place.
His multiple fantasies (Jup,Nep) and his oddball sexual proclivities
(Ven,Uran) 'possibly' made him a "seducer" of children. See the Mercury
(children) right in the middle of that sandwich. All this in the 12th house,
behind closed doors.
>
>> So it is hard to know who is doing what to whom. Neptune is moving into
>> exact with the Saturn, while Pluto transits over the same point.
>>
>> Neptune/Saturn = Pluto is a serious illness.
5'11" and 120lbs when taken into custody. Uh... Either it is speed or
anorexia/bulimia perhaps, IMHO.
>>
>
> Could be he needs a new nose job :-)
Just the fact that he has been self-mutilating for years is very telling to
the degree of his psychological health, so...
>
>> The eclipses before a major event in one's life are often very telling.
>>
>
> Tell me about it :-)
> The 1999 total eclipse exact on my 12th house Jupiter coincided with when I
> first heard of Black Moon Lilith. And we all know where THAT led to :-)
>
> The May 31st annular eclipse would only be relevant if the 6.54 chart were
> used, natal Moon on 8.59 Pisces, wouldn't it?
> I don't see it effecting anything else. I get a 24 Virgo Asc. and 23*58
> Gemini MC.
He has 9 Gemini 58 MC for 8/29/58. 6:54 am CDT in Gary, IN.
That's the May 31 Eclipse 9Gem20!!
> CST = +6 hours GMT. Is that right?
>
> The lunar eclipse of 8 Nov. picked up the S.A.Neptune-Pluto. But if it is
> the Moon that is shadowed by the Earth, i.e. manifestation, wouldn't this
> refer to people's feelings about something being shadowed by the actual
> facts?
> (I'm not familar with how eclipses work so I try to put the phenomena into
> an astro. perspective :-) )
Eclipses on a planet exact 1-2 degrees look to the house the planet rules
for big time changes with the next period before the next eclipse. In his
case with this chart it is his MC and therefore public standing.
>
>
>> MRideout showed the natal, the SAD and then the transits for Roy Horn and
> it
>> was more telling than the Sec. Progressed.
>
> Now I know who Roy Horn is, I'll look up the post on Google.
>
> I find that S.A. aspects seem to reflect the people/events in the current
> chapter of one's life, whilst the sec. progr. refer to the general plot of
> the whole book :-)
Okay. That sounds like a reasonable theory.
Best -- LL
>
>
> Regards,
> Christine.
>
>
Christine
> in article bporjp$7r3$2...@reader10.wxs.nl,
C. wrote:
> > I can't see the same as you do, LL.
> > The natal Neptune-Pluto aspect will always remain a sextile in any S.A.
> > chart, surely, although *transiting* Pluto has cojoined the S.A.
Neptune to
> > N.
> > Saturn.
>
> Uhh... yeah. I thought that is what I said. Was I speaking in Yiddish or
> somethin..? :)
>
LOL. Sorry LL, no. It was my double Dutch.
I've just noticed the '.' between Directed. Pluto :-)
Apologies. I'm without my usual glasses, now in repair.
[..]
> And T. Neptune will be opp N. Uranus and Uranus will oppose his Pluto and
> Sun. AND if this chart is correct then all this is going to happen in the
> 12th. A prison break from a private helicopter? lol
>
I must admit that that Sun-Pluto, if in the 12th, looks awesome for him.
[..]
> >> Neptune/Saturn = Pluto is a serious illness.
>
> 5'11" and 120lbs when taken into custody. Uh... Either it is speed or
> anorexia/bulimia perhaps, IMHO.
>
That's the sort of info. that doesn't reach our side of the water.
[..]
I get a 24 Virgo Asc. and 23*58
> > Gemini MC.
>
> He has 9 Gemini 58 MC for 8/29/58. 6:54 am CDT in Gary, IN.
>
> That's the May 31 Eclipse 9Gem20!!
>
My database gave CST; you have CDT. I now see the chart you're referring to.
Thanks.
There's about every aspect design possible in it, except a Star of David.
With all those aspects from Lilith, his chart would make good lesson
material within your astro. group :-)
[..]
> Eclipses on a planet exact 1-2 degrees look to the house the planet rules
> for big time changes with the next period before the next eclipse. In his
> case with this chart it is his MC and therefore public standing.
>
It's only the planet/angle and house that the eclipse conjuncts that is
emphasised?
What about the aspects that planet/angle makes to other planets/angles? Are
these effected by the eclipse too?
Or midpoints?
If you accept up to 2 degrees, that eclipse would have fallen on my 10th
house Uranus. Can't say that I felt my world shake at that particular time.
The long term big changes that would take place weren't finalised until
September and didn't occur until this weekend. Does that count? :-)
[..]
I value your comments, LL. They teach me a lot.
Thank you.
> > Regards,
> > Christine.
> >
Libralove
on 11/23/03 11:09 AM:
>> He has 9 Gemini 58 MC for 8/29/58. 6:54 am CDT in Gary, IN.
>>
>> That's the May 31 Eclipse 9Gem20!!
>>
>
> My database gave CST; you have CDT. I now see the chart you're referring to.
In that county, at that date, the time was CDT according to the American
Atlas, so that is the reason for the discrepancy with the Asc/MC degree.
I think that eclipse got him!
> Thanks.
> There's about every aspect design possible in it, except a Star of David.
>
> With all those aspects from Lilith, his chart would make good lesson
> material within your astro. group :-)
Yeah, no kidding. :/ Opps... that bad pun. Ker plunk..
>
> [..]
>> Eclipses on a planet exact 1-2 degrees look to the house the planet rules
>> for big time changes with the next period before the next eclipse. In his
>> case with this chart it is his MC and therefore public standing.
>>
>
> It's only the planet/angle and house that the eclipse conjuncts that is
> emphasised?
> What about the aspects that planet/angle makes to other planets/angles? Are
> these effected by the eclipse too?
> Or midpoints?
>
> If you accept up to 2 degrees, that eclipse would have fallen on my 10th
> house Uranus. Can't say that I felt my world shake at that particular time.
No, nothing rarely happens at the exact moment. It usually takes weeks or a
month or so. It looks like it was active then on your Uranus, just took 6
months and hit about the time of this eclipse tomorrow. So that is perfect
for the action of an eclipse on your Uranus 10th. What exactly happened if I
may be so bold?
Normally planetary hits from eclipses are events within a few months of the
eclipse, but they represent long term changes for the person. I had it hit
my Uranus at 10 Gem 35 and the Eclipse was 9 Gem 20 May 31st. So... I think
I know what it foretells, but I am waiting to see after this one at 1 Sag.
:)
> The long term big changes that would take place weren't finalised until
> September and didn't occur until this weekend. Does that count? :-)
What transits or the eclipse today, is triggering the event from that
eclipse? Is it new job maybe?
>
> [..]
>
> I value your comments, LL. They teach me a lot.
> Thank you.
You are so kind to say that. Thank you. Best -- LL
>
>>> Regards,
>>> Christine.
Libralove
on 11/22/03 5:29 PM:
>
> "Astrology Cycles" <astroNOlo...@AhotmailM.com> schreef in bericht
> news:bplef7$38v$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Hi
>>
>> I was wondering if yourself and Christine could shed some light on where
>> these birthdata are from, in terms of their original source?
>>
>> e.g. does Noel Tyl credit his source or does he just state the data?
>>
>> We need to know where the data is actually from before we can use it with
>> any measure of confidence.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>
> I have Astrolab for Windows 2,1 which contains a database of approx. 2500
> names.
> The source for M. Jackson is given as PP, but I have no idea what this
> means; Sorry.
> I guess one could also check the many astro. websites that provide data
> info.
>
> I think the 6.54 chart has a lot going for it right now. The fact that
> Jackson is again involved in legalities with sexual overtones fits a Saturn
> in intercepted Sagittarius with Scorpio on the 3rd house cusp, that is now
> overshadowed by transiting Pluto. The authority out to get him fits the
> bill. The 12th house Sun 'could' be associated with incarceration but if it
> ever happens, I wouldn't particularly give him much chance of/will for
> survival with Pluto conjunct the Sun in the birth chart.
I'll bet my boots on this time 6.54 DST. Not only that, Jacko has a really
dark side to him as recently shown in interviews and discoveries made in his
home. That Thriller album and all the dolls they have found hidden in his
secret room, etc. No movie could be this weird. And that clown face!
(Remember John Wayne Gacy?) As he becomes ever more female by the day.
He has Chiron hard to Venus and I have recently been studying that amazing
natal aspect. The male is constantly trying to get in touch with his anima
because of so many past lives as females and he wakes up in this one and
finds himself a male. Opps...
Now, what? His whole deepest nature needs to reconnect with his previously
female self according to Barbara Hand Chow in the Chiron book. So what
happens with these guys? Guess...
Jacko is definitely a 12th house "behind closed doors" kind of guy! As is
GWB... ;), but different activities behind those doors. I think... ;) I
hope... lol
LL
Michael Rideout
assembled the following reported birth times from the indicated references. I
haven't confirmed any references beyond the initial ones listed. For example,
the AstroDatabank web site lists 1:30 a.m. CDT, stating that the time comes
from Zip Dobyns, who got it from another astrologer, who got it from a friend
of Michael Jackson-- but the only reference I've confirmed is that I got it
from the AstroDatabank web site!
A couple of the reported times are equivalent to each other, but are given for
different kinds of time (i.e., a CST time which is equivalent to a CDT time
minus 1 hour, and an EST time which is equivalent to a CDT time). This has
apparently (and understandably) caused some confusion.
I make no judgments regarding the accuracy or credibility of any of the
references, aside from noting where confusion may have arisen due to equivalent
times being reported for different kinds of time-- and any such notes are not
intended as judgments, but are given merely in the interest of trying to
consolidate and clarify the various times.
1:30 a.m. CDT
-- from the AstroDatabank web site, from Zip Dobyns, from an unidentified
astrologer, from an unidentified friend of Michael Jackson (but the
AstroDatabank web site then says that Zip Dobyns speculates the Ascendant to be
in late Aquarius, and I note that such an Ascendant would put the time in the
general vicinity of 7:00 p.m. CDT)
3:00 a.m. CDT
-- from the AstroDatabank web site, from Grazia Bordoni, from Mercurio-3, from
Michael Jackson
6:54 a.m. CDT
-- from Libr...@austin.rr.com in alt.astrology.moderated, from a possible
misunderstanding regarding the 7:54 a.m. CDT time (see below)
7:45 a.m. CDT
-- from the StarIQ web site, from Michael Wolfstar's "NewsScope," issue dated
December 24, 2002, from unidentified sources
7:54 a.m. CDT
-- from the AstroDatabank web site, from Richard Gehman, from an unidentified
person close to Michael Jackson
6:54 a.m. CST (which is equivalent to 7:54 a.m. CDT)
-- from a.h...@planet.nl in alt.astrology.moderated, from the Astrolab
program's database, from "PP" (the meaning of which might be given in the
Astrolab program's documentation)
8:47 a.m. CDT
-- from the AstroDatabank web site, from Lois Rodden, from a speculative
rectification
12:09 p.m. CDT
-- from the AstroDatabank web site, from Kim Baker in an NCGR Newsletter
article, from speculation
late evening, after 10:30 p.m. CDT
-- from the AstroDatabank web site, from Basil Fearrington, from Michael
Jackson
11:43 p.m. CDT
-- from the StarIQ web site, from Michael Wolfstar's "NewsScope," issue dated
December 24, 2002, from Noel Tyl, from an unidentified spokesperson for Michael
Jackson
11:43 p.m. EST (which is equivalent to 11:43 p.m. CDT)
-- from mimiw...@aol.com in alt.astrology.moderated, from Michael Wolfstar's
"NewsScope," issue dated December 24, 2002, from Noel Tyl
11:45 p.m. CDT
-- from the AstroDatabank web site (but the comments state that the time was
misquoted from Michael Jackson's "Moonwalk," Doubleday, 1988, and further state
that no time is given in that book)
-- from the AstroPro web site, from the Astrological Association Journal, Vol.
31, No. 5
-- from the AstroDienst web site, from the DAV/VIP database
11:53 p.m. CDT
-- from the AstroDatabank web site, from Basil Fearrington in "Astrology of the
Famed," 1996, from rectification
-- from mimiw...@aol.com in alt.astrology.moderated, from Michael Wolfstar
(who reportedly stated that the 11:43 p.m. CDT time given in his December 24,
2002 "NewsScope" was a typographical error)
Michael Rideout
Libralove
seagt...@aol.com wrote on 11/23/03 1:52 PM:
WOW! What great research, Michael! Now let me see eeny-meany-chili-beany...
which natal chart shall I choose...
I guess with Mercury contraparallel Neptune, he is either unaware that he is
lying or he is telling everyone different information to cloud the issue.
Either way ... the results are the same.
Best and Thanks for pulling all that info together for us!! LL
Mimi Wings99
>For the benefit of anyone who is studying Michael Jackson's birth chart,
Thank you Michael for your excellent intellectual ability to put everything
together for us. You are something else again. Think I'll crawl into my Virgo
shell for awhile. ;-)
Christine
> > If you accept up to 2 degrees, that eclipse would have fallen on my 10th
> > house Uranus. Can't say that I felt my world shake at that particular
time.
>
> No, nothing rarely happens at the exact moment. It usually takes weeks or
a
> month or so. It looks like it was active then on your Uranus, just took 6
> months and hit about the time of this eclipse tomorrow. So that is perfect
> for the action of an eclipse on your Uranus 10th. What exactly happened if
I
> may be so bold?
I can be SO DENSE at times! I've just realised what it probably was.
My husband was offered and decided upon early retirement. It took from Feb.
thru July to sort out the financial/ legal details, after which compulsory 4
months notice was added. At one point it even looked as if it would all fall
through.
It all had its effect on my husband....his MC is on 9*34 Gemini !!.... which
in turn affected my normal happy nature :-D
Everytime someone has asked me how I was dealing with the idea, I have
replied......wait for it.....
"The man gains his freedom; the wife loses hers. But I'll adjust to the
idea."
Isn't that Uranus speaking.........and in Gemini, too :-)
His farewell reception and dinner was on Friday, although he's officially
employed till the end of the month. He's taken up leave due him.
I'd wondered last year if he would be offered ' sudden' retirement.
10th house Saturn return, prog. Sun (ruler 12th) over 6th house cusp in
Aquarius trine Saturn, transit Uranus in 6th opp. Jupiter in 12th (ruler IC
and 7th), and the tr. Pluto due over his 4th house Sun. There has been a
major takeover of his firm, his director has been promoted away to Germany
and I was scared stiff that the asst. director would be promoted up ( he
wasn't). He and my husband are fire and water and each other's tormentors.
My husband's last years at work would have been purgatory with a capital P
under him.
He was able to retire on 'medical grounds'. He has cholesterol and sugar
problems and he was feeling heart constriction, which our physician was
rather concerned about because my husband's father ( a Leo) had and died of
a heart problem. His brother, a real health nut and slim with it, also has
the same problem. It's all worked out very beneficial for us, so I am hoping
the forthcoming Pluto transit (ruler his 3rd) is about getting used to being
at home and doing all the necessary redecorating and doesn't refer to his
3rd house sibling.
>
> Normally planetary hits from eclipses are events within a few months of
the
> eclipse, but they represent long term changes for the person. I had it hit
> my Uranus at 10 Gem 35 and the Eclipse was 9 Gem 20 May 31st. So... I
think
> I know what it foretells, but I am waiting to see after this one at 1 Sag.
> :)
>
Which will sextile your Neptune, ruler 8th ?
That biology project, hehehehe :-)
> > The long term big changes that would take place weren't finalised until
> > September and didn't occur until this weekend. Does that count? :-)
>
> What transits or the eclipse today, is triggering the event from that
> eclipse? Is it new job maybe?
>
Yeah. Househusband :-)
> >
> > [..]
> >
> > I value your comments, LL. They teach me a lot.
> > Thank you.
>
> You are so kind to say that. Thank you. Best -- LL
Not kind; just honest.
Regards,
Christine.
Christine
"Michael Rideout" <seagt...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20031123145045...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> For the benefit of anyone who is studying Michael Jackson's birth chart,
And it is only 'studying' the possibilities, Michael :-)
I can only add my thanks to the others for the time-consuming effort on your
part.
{{{BUT I HATE THOSE U.S. TIME ZONES}}}}} :-))
I wonder if anyone has ever thought to ask his mother........or check the
Gary, Indiana birth records? Is there no registry of births listing?
Regards,
Christine.
Christine
[..]
> I'll bet my boots on this time 6.54 DST.
I'm still having terrible trouble trying to figure out which 6.54 fits which
time zone! :-)
Not only that, Jacko has a really
> dark side to him as recently shown in interviews and discoveries made in
his
> home. That Thriller album and all the dolls they have found hidden in his
> secret room, etc. No movie could be this weird. And that clown face!
> (Remember John Wayne Gacy?) As he becomes ever more female by the day.
I have always thought that he tended to bring out this 'weird' as well as
genial side of his nature in his albums and video clips, and knew exactly
what he was doing and the effect it would have. I mean that little fun-evil
smile at the end of the Thriller clip seems to say it all.
I couldn't remember when Thriller came out or the later album, in which this
gorgeous-looking blad-clad macho male sang 'BAD'. I would have especialy
liked to have tried to pinpoint Lilith's placing in transits and
progressions to see if it showed any significance.
When you talk of his dark side, are you referring to the effect of any
particular planet or the 'shadow' side usually referred to as being in
Saturn (which is aspected to, and makes as many aspects as Lilith, BTW.)
> He has Chiron hard to Venus and I have recently been studying that amazing
> natal aspect. The male is constantly trying to get in touch with his anima
> because of so many past lives as females and he wakes up in this one and
> finds himself a male. Opps...
>
I once read an astro. article in which a Mars-Pluto could have the same
effect regarding feelings towards sex change. And my study of Lilith in
Aries appears to give indication of a feeling of lack of manliness/manhood
in male charts.
I'm also inclined to think that Venus-Chiron can include something as simple
as the pain that love inflicts, depending upon whether Taurus or Libra is
stronger. Jackson's NN is in Libra, that we do know for sure, so how Venus
is treated is of great importance to him. Chiron in Aquarius lives with the
pain of knowing it is different from other people because there is something
'physical' that is not accepted by the community of which one is part. Venus
in Leo is VERY self-centred and needs personal gratification of love and
adoration. It's as if Jackson strives to love and be loved and accepted for
his very differentness.
If Lilith is included in the chart, Venus-Chiron, by opposition, form the
backbone of a kite. It's either what provides the strength to keep the kite
up against all forces or restricts its freedom of movement, wouldn't you say
?
> Now, what? His whole deepest nature needs to reconnect with his previously
> female self according to Barbara Hand Chow in the Chiron book. So what
> happens with these guys? Guess...
>
I always thought that he gradually came to look more and more like his
sister Janet. Maybe she was his role model.
I've also long wondered how much this whole dark side had to do with the
colour of his skin and his family environment.
A complex nature, to be sure.
> Jacko is definitely a 12th house "behind closed doors" kind of guy! As is
> GWB... ;), but different activities behind those doors. I think... ;) I
> hope... lol
>
> LL
>
> > Regards,
> > Christine.
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <bpslap$nov$1...@reader08.wxs.nl>, "Christine"
<a.h...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
>"Libralove" <Libr...@austin.rr.com> schreef in bericht
>news:BBE65820.4628%Libr...@austin.rr.com...
>[..]
>> I'll bet my boots on this time 6.54 DST.
>
>I'm still having terrible trouble trying to figure out which 6.54 fits which
>time zone! :-)
>
>Not only that, Jacko has a really
>> dark side to him as recently shown in interviews and discoveries made in
>his
>> home. That Thriller album and all the dolls they have found hidden in his
>> secret room, etc. No movie could be this weird. And that clown face!
>> (Remember John Wayne Gacy?) As he becomes ever more female by the day.
>
>I have always thought that he tended to bring out this 'weird' as well as
>genial side of his nature in his albums and video clips, and knew exactly
>what he was doing and the effect it would have.
RM: You have just quoted the exact words which I've been going to
write for a couple of days.
Michael Jackson "knows exactly what he is doing". It's what I saw in
his chart when I looked at it several months ago.
I certainly hope he is not guilty of breaching the law in relation to
children, but obviously he has been charged with some such offence.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is simply teaching society to
base our judgements on facts, rather than illusions.
>>
>> > Regards,
>> > Christine.
Ray
Libralove
ray...@chariot.net.au wrote on 11/24/03 7:29 AM:
>
> ----------
> In article <bpslap$nov$1...@reader08.wxs.nl>, "Christine"
> <a.h...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> "Libralove" <Libr...@austin.rr.com> schreef in bericht
>> news:BBE65820.4628%Libr...@austin.rr.com...
>> [..]
>>> I'll bet my boots on this time 6.54 DST.
>>
>> I'm still having terrible trouble trying to figure out which 6.54 fits which
>> time zone! :-)
>>
>> Not only that, Jacko has a really
>>> dark side to him as recently shown in interviews and discoveries made in
>> his
>>> home. That Thriller album and all the dolls they have found hidden in his
>>> secret room, etc. No movie could be this weird. And that clown face!
>>> (Remember John Wayne Gacy?) As he becomes ever more female by the day.
>>
>> I have always thought that he tended to bring out this 'weird' as well as
>> genial side of his nature in his albums and video clips, and knew exactly
>> what he was doing and the effect it would have.
>
> RM: You have just quoted the exact words which I've been going to
> write for a couple of days.
> Michael Jackson "knows exactly what he is doing". It's what I saw in
> his chart when I looked at it several months ago.
That is even scarier! If he knows "exactly" what he is doing then why is his
nose missing and his eyes propped open like a clown after all the surgeries
he has made on himself? Why does he weigh 120 lbs at 5'11"?
No chart is needed to see that this guy is in "self-destruct" mode and is
not mentally healthy. He may be even wanting to get caught. From the look of
him he has enormous self hatred to have done what he has done to a handsome
black man in order to become a really ugly white woman.
> I certainly hope he is not guilty of breaching the law in relation to
> children, but obviously he has been charged with some such offence.
> I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is simply teaching society to
> base our judgements on facts, rather than illusions.
All it takes is a corroborating witness or two. And frequently when one
witness comes forth in things like this others follow. If the prosecution is
basing this charge on one little boy's story, they are in trouble, but I
doubt they would try to win a case like that. So... we will see.
If this were the first time, well... maybe it is false, but he has already
paid off one boy and his family many millions and this is a matter of
record.
>
>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Christine.
>
> Ray
>
Christine
[..]
> All it takes is a corroborating witness or two. And frequently when one
> witness comes forth in things like this others follow. If the prosecution
is
> basing this charge on one little boy's story, they are in trouble, but I
> doubt they would try to win a case like that. So... we will see.
I think the greatest problem is that children's words can sometimes be
twisted to produce another meaning, or they can even be psychologically
manipulated to say whatever the prosecution/defence wants the jury to hear.
HOW can Jackson prove innocence with no one else around to confirm anything?
Who's going to believe him? Even if he did produce tapes that showed
innocent behaviour, the very fact that he made tapes would still be used to
prove his so-called abnormal behaviour. The jury convicts/releases, the
prosecution/defence wins the case and everybody celebrates the victory over
a flow of double whiskies at the bar of the nearest strip joint on Sex
Alley.....or rings Discreet Escort Service.
Jackson sang the question himself, "Who's Bad ?"
>
> If this were the first time, well... maybe it is false, but he has already
> paid off one boy and his family many millions and this is a matter of
> record.
>
> >
If you could save your reputation from being harmed or ruined further than
it already was by false accusations, would you pay off the 'victims' to let
the matter rest, if such was within your means?
What struck me as odd was that money silenced the otherwise
outspoken parents, instead of their acting on their well-defined principles
of right and wrong by bringing the case to court. They didn't seem concerned
that, by not doing so, Jackson could go on doing the same thing to other
people's children that 'apparently' happened to their child.
Money talks alright...but in whose favour ?
Regards,
Christine.
Christine
"Ray Murphy" <ray...@chariot.net.au> schreef in bericht
news:3fc20...@news.chariot.net.au...
>
> ----------
> In article <bpslap$nov$1...@reader08.wxs.nl>, "Christine"
> <a.h...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >I have always thought that he tended to bring out this 'weird' as well as
> >genial side of his nature in his albums and video clips, and knew exactly
> >what he was doing and the effect it would have.
>
> RM: You have just quoted the exact words which I've been going to
> write for a couple of days.
How can I 'quote' what you haven't even written?
This time you're gonna have to say " I could quote your exact words,
Christine"
Go on....be nice to me and make my day :-)>
> Michael Jackson "knows exactly what he is doing". It's what I saw in
> his chart when I looked at it several months ago.
> I certainly hope he is not guilty of breaching the law in relation to
> children, but obviously he has been charged with some such offence.
> I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is simply teaching society to
> base our judgements on facts, rather than illusions.
>
> Ray
The ongoing dialogue with LL interests me because she is seeing the
so-called 'soft' aspects in his nature, as well as the transits and
progressions, working together in a completely different way to my own idea
of how they would work. As if, if there is a malintent or maladjustment
inborn in one's nature, the soft aspects by still working together
harmoniously could enhance that, or produce more, malintent/maladjustment,
but which feels good and right to the person.
This said, it would, imho, infer an alternative perspective to the harsh
aspects. There must be something in them that would counteract the effect of
the 'bad' soft aspects. I haven't yet figured how to translate all their
meanings, following LL's line of thought, unless their intent is to make bad
worse.
Christine.
Libralove
on 11/24/03 10:30 AM:
Jupiter can definitely make bad worse. It magnifies and multiplies
everything it touches including a very bad or negative aspect. A Jupiter
Neptune can make either a bigger liar or a very spiritual person or a drunk.
But an "escape from reality" is always the key whether it be through prayer
or medication or drugs or sex. Jackson's is trine the kinky Venus con
Uranus. Venus+Uranus is rebellious love. Add a Jupiter+Neptune trine and you
fuel the fire of sexual addiction - kinky style. It is like transcendental
sex... I think I had that once. lol
Think of all the priests who hid behind religion and spirituality (Neptune)
to molest children. Jupiter + Neptune can be a bad thing if connected up
badly in a chart. Jupiter+Neptune can also make a good seducer and he has
Mercury contraparallel Neptune, so... he may not be able to know the
difference between certain realities especially in concern with that
Venus+Uranus.
I think that what Barbara Hand Chow also said about natal hard Venus to
Chiron is very interesting. These people with it go through a very difficult
puberty (crisis) and as Michael's sister, Janet, said last night on Larry
King, her brother went through a horrendous puberty. Can you say, "drag
queen, transvestite, cross-dresser...." She wrote a dodge around it, but it
was pretty darn obvious what she was getting at.
He has been a normal, masculine, outspoken and bold boy, but at puberty he
became extremely shy, fearful and well, and more feminine. (I am
paraphrasing her exact words.) And look at the progression into femininity
now. He talks like a 12 year old girl, and weighs about the same.
Just looking at this guy's face and recent demeanor tells a lot about his
mental stability. Add the fact that he went through all this once before but
persisted in continuing having "little boy sleep-overs" in his bed under the
covers. Pleeasseee.... get a clue Jacko, you are just asking for a sexual
law problem doing this over and over, even after the first problem he had
was just like this one.
The guy is ill, very ill, IMO. He is very, very talented, but he is also
very, very ill.
Best -- LL
>
> Christine.
>
>
Libralove
on 11/24/03 10:30 AM:
>
> "Libralove" <Libr...@austin.rr.com> schreef in bericht
> news:BBE7687A.47A6%Libr...@austin.rr.com...
> [..]
>
>> All it takes is a corroborating witness or two. And frequently when one
>> witness comes forth in things like this others follow. If the prosecution
> is
>> basing this charge on one little boy's story, they are in trouble, but I
>> doubt they would try to win a case like that. So... we will see.
>
>
> I think the greatest problem is that children's words can sometimes be
> twisted to produce another meaning, or they can even be psychologically
> manipulated to say whatever the prosecution/defence wants the jury to hear.
> HOW can Jackson prove innocence with no one else around to confirm anything?
> Who's going to believe him? Even if he did produce tapes that showed
> innocent behaviour, the very fact that he made tapes would still be used to
> prove his so-called abnormal behaviour.
Any tapes of MJ's prove nothing. Will he tape himself having deviant sex
with little boys or just romping on the lawn? If the police find such tapes
in his hidden room full of dolls, all it indicates is more mental illness
and denial that what it represents is wrong. I believe that he genuinely
believes that he "loves" little boys. The problem is he has Venus+Neptune,
so his idea of "love" and yours and mine are likely quite different. ;)
> The jury convicts/releases, the
> prosecution/defence wins the case and everybody celebrates the victory over
> a flow of double whiskies at the bar of the nearest strip joint on Sex
> Alley.....or rings Discreet Escort Service.
What is that supposed to mean? Child molesters should go free because judges
and lawyers go to hookers and strip joints. Give me a break! There is a big
difference between consenting adults and lewd acts with a child of 12.
>
> Jackson sang the question himself, "Who's Bad ?"
You may be, Michael!
>
>>
>> If this were the first time, well... maybe it is false, but he has already
>> paid off one boy and his family many millions and this is a matter of
>> record.
>>
>>>
>
> If you could save your reputation from being harmed or ruined further than
> it already was by false accusations, would you pay off the 'victims' to let
> the matter rest, if such was within your means?
>
> What struck me as odd was that money silenced the otherwise
> outspoken parents, instead of their acting on their well-defined principles
> of right and wrong by bringing the case to court. They didn't seem concerned
> that, by not doing so, Jackson could go on doing the same thing to other
> people's children that 'apparently' happened to their child.
> Money talks alright...but in whose favour?
Going to trial and having to go through all that with no help for the
child's probable psychological needs perhaps throughout his lifetime is not
a benefit except to justice. F*** justice. My child's welfare is the most
important thing.
If I were that parent, and the damage to my child had already been done, I
also would take the money and walk. My child would benefit from the money,
but not from the lurid trial. Also let the other parents think twice before
sending their kid over for a sleep-over, especially since this previous
event was already was out in the media!
Can you tell I am a Cancer with a Leo rising con Mars+Jupiter. Jupiter rules
my 5th (child) and Mars rules my 9th (legal matters).
You should have seen me with the lawyer going up against the school on
behalf of my son. Nobody hurts my child and gets away with it. I am the
lioness mommy. :) lol -- LL
>
> Regards,
> Christine.
>
>
Libralove
Libr...@austin.rr.com wrote on 11/24/03 1:10 PM:
> I believe that he genuinely
> believes that he "loves" little boys. The problem is he has Venus+Neptune,
> so his idea of "love" and yours and mine are likely quite different. ;)
I meant to say Venus + Uranus, not Neptune. Here we have Venus + Uranus //
Mars and Uranus with Venus square Mars. Sexy? Sex driven maybe? Touching
private parts on stage.
Then a separate issue but connected due to Jupiter ruling Libra = Venus
conjunct Neptune in Scorpio ruling Mars.
Sun + Pluto in Virgo (Mercury ruling young people) = forever young and in
power over the young.
Do you you see it now?
Best -- LL
Libralove
Libr...@austin.rr.com wrote on 11/24/03 12:39 PM:
> But an "escape from reality" is always the key whether it be through prayer
> or medication or drugs or sex. Jackson's is trine the kinky Venus con
> Uranus. Venus+Uranus is rebellious love. Add a Jupiter+Neptune trine and you
> fuel the fire of sexual addiction - kinky style. It is like transcendental
> sex... I think I had that once. lol
Apologies. I misspoke in this previous post also. It is not the Neptune con
Jupiter "trine" Venus con Uranus (which he does NOT have), it is the
disposition of rulers like I wrote in the just previous to this post of
Jupiter in Libra (= Venus) conjunct Neptune in Scorpio (= Mars and Pluto).
Sometimes my mental rebus shorthand gets the best of me. Do ya' know what I
mean? :)
It took me a time to get a handle on dispositions and how powerful they are.
I put up a diagram here once, or was it aat, of how Saddam Hussein's planets
disposed and made him a powerful mass murderer along with Jim Jones, the
biggest known mass murderer the US has had thus far and the power (number of
murders) was equivalent to the number of dispositors.
Here it is:
http://home.austin.rr.com/libralove/Dispositors.html
The only thing is I read recently that Jones actually killed 800, not the
200 I put and Applewhite was small potatoes. But look at Saddam!! That is
what I mean about those dispositers. I should try that little puzzle with MJ
and see what it looks like - powerwise.
Best -- LL
love
You can find the following quote in his autobiography on the internet:
"I was born in Gary, Indiana, on a late summer night in 1958, the seventh of
my parents' nine children." The Noel Tyl birthtime could be correct.
Regards,
love
"Christine" <a.h...@planet.nl> schreef in bericht
news:bpsgg2$iiq$1...@reader08.wxs.nl...
Libralove
wrote on 11/24/03 7:06 PM:
> It's more likely that Jackson's correct birthtime is past 11 pm.
> You can find the following quote in his autobiography on the internet:
> "I was born in Gary, Indiana, on a late summer night in 1958, the seventh of
> my parents' nine children." The Noel Tyl birthtime could be correct.
>
> Regards,
>
> love
>
Yes, love. The 11:43 pm CDT looks like a possibility. 14 Gemini rising and
Venus opp Chiron on he MC/IC and Mars in Taurus in the 12th Square that
making a T-square from the 12th. Sun con Pluto in the 4th = father was a
control freak with a heavy disciplinary hand.
Neptune in Scorpio just inside the 6th house sesquisquare Moon for mental
illness. Both Jupiter and Neptune are contraparallel his Mercury, so the
mental issues are compounded by the emotions and the thinking/communicating.
The only thing that bothers me is the Moon rules the 2nd and Cap rules the
8th and neither one of them have big money aspects connected to them, so I
find this one hard to swallow as IT.
Anybody see any money in this chart? Venus // Uranus and Sun Contra //
Jupiter. That's it?
Best -- LL
Michael Rideout
> It's more likely that Jackson's correct birthtime is past 11 pm.
> You can find the following quote in his autobiography on the internet:
> "I was born in Gary, Indiana, on a late summer night in 1958, the seventh of
> my parents' nine children." The Noel Tyl birthtime could be correct.
>
> Regards,
>
> love
The 11:45 p.m. CDT time is the one I've been using, simply because it was the
one I found in Astrodienst's Astro-Twin database (from the DAV database)
earlier this year. It isn't that I consider the DAV database to be superior to
any other databases; it's more a question of having gotten used to that chart
before I found a lot of other times mentioned!
As I previously posted:
> late evening, after 10:30 p.m. CDT
> -- from the AstroDatabank web site, from Basil Fearrington, from Michael
> Jackson
If Michael Jackson indeed spoke with Basil Fearrington and told him that he was
born "definitely after 10:30" (which is not very precise), then I'm not sure
why an unidentified spokesperson for Michael Jackson would give a more precise
time to Noel Tyl, unless Michael had found out his time of birth after speaking
with Basil Fearrington. The 11:53 p.m. time is said to be rectified by Basil
Fearrington, and the 11:45 p.m. time was published in the Astrological
Association Journal, so it may be that either the 11:43 p.m. or 11:45 p.m. time
came from a document of some sort-- although I don't know what the source of
either time was. In any case, I'm using the 11:45 p.m. time, as I've already
noted.
>From a traditional perspective, the Moon is hayz, and therefore strong. And
for what it's worth, the Moon is the ruler of the planetary hour. Note that
the Moon is in Pisces, which is ruled or co-ruled by Neptune in the modern
rulership scheme, and the Moon is sesquisquare Neptune, with the Moon square
Saturn, and Saturn semisquare Neptune. Besides making a conjunction to natal
Saturn, transiting Pluto is square the natal Moon and semisquare natal Neptune
in the 2003 Solar return. Also, directed Neptune isn't conjunct natal Saturn
yet, but is currently in close application to a square with the natal Moon, so
the natal Moon-Neptune sesquisquare is being triggered by directed Neptune and
the Solar-return Pluto. Furthermore, the directed Moon is applying to an
opposition with natal Neptune, so the natal Moon-Neptune aspect will remain
highlighted for a few more years. In the upcoming Lunar return chart (December
1, 2003), the Lunar-return Jupiter (traditional dispositor of the natal Moon)
will be opposing the natal Moon, so December may be tough for him.
The Solar-return Saturn is in the natal 2nd House, closely opposing the
Solar-return Midheaven, suggesting financial hardships and opposition to his
professional ambitions this year.
One of the most intriguing factors may be progressed Mars squaring natal Pluto.
This progressed square has been going on for several years now, having moved
into a 1-degree orb around 1986, then becoming exact in late 1992-- and still
very close to exact in the latter part of 1993, when the first molestation case
occurred. Then progressed Mars went stationary retrograde around 2000 or 2001,
while still within a 1-degree orb, and it is now applying to the square again
in retrograde motion. It looks like it will remain within a 1-degree orb until
about 2014-- some 10 years from now. Considering that Michael Jackson could
receive a sentence of 10 years if found guilty, this progressed square looks
rather ominous to me. Note that natal Mars is in the 12th House, and is also
very strong by sect-- it would be hayz, if not for the fact that it's in
detriment in Taurus.
To address LibraLove's question, I don't know where the money is in the 11:45
p.m. chart, unless the fact that the Moon (hayz in Pisces, ruled traditionally
by Jupiter) is the ruler of the 2nd House helps to explain it. Jupiter is the
exalted ruler of the 2nd House, by the way. It's interesting that the combined
13th-Harmonic and 1st-Harmonic chart (as described in Robert Hand's "Essays on
Astrology," about the dodekatemoria) has an extremely tight conjunction of the
13H Moon, 13H Jupiter, and 13H Midheaven, in the 5th House of the natal chart,
which may suggest that creative self-expression (5th House) is an avenue for
making money in his profession (13H Moon and 13H Jupiter, the ruler and exalted
ruler of the 2nd House, in a conjunction with the 13H Midheaven).
I don't know whether he's guilty or innocent of the charges, but even if he's
innocent, it may not matter much if the jury feels that there was any
impropriety involved in his behavior toward children.
Michael Rideout
Christine
[..]
> The only thing that bothers me is the Moon rules the 2nd and Cap rules the
> 8th and neither one of them have big money aspects connected to them, so I
> find this one hard to swallow as IT.
>
> Anybody see any money in this chart? Venus // Uranus and Sun Contra //
> Jupiter. That's it?
>
> Best -- LL
>
Seems my programme plotted this chart right!
Maybe hard cash as such has never been really important to him, other than a
means of providing a place of his own where he feels safe and at peace? The
second house also implies personal talents, values, and safety, doesn't it ?
The Moon provides this feeling of security/safety through Pisces in the 10th
house (Placidus). In his case it was an (family) image to which the public
responded that brought him world fame, acclaim, and worship as an icon. The
mint barrels rolled in. If the Moon in Pisces had remained unnoticed (as
many with such a position strongly feel), he could just as easily have
become lost in the millions of homeless now carrying his wordly belongings
around in a supermarket trolley........ which he could still well do at the
rate money flows through his fingers like water :-).
The importance of dispositorship you mentioned elsewhere puts Neptune in the
6th house of work. The image created is just an illusion to suffice in his
chosen field of work. If it was in Virgo he may have been a plinky-plonky
jazz guitarist; in Libra a romantic ballad singer. But it's in
Scorpio.....the illusion created is highly deep, dark and erotic...and it's
eventually been created to such 6th house workaholic perfection that it not
only provided sufficient to live on but is now working against him.
The 8th house, not only about money but also of other people's values, is in
Capricorn....traditionalism/authority...and is empty. Its ruler, Saturn
implies guilt, is in the 7th house of open enemies and squares the image of
the 10th house Moon in Pisces.... a position Saturn acclaims as its own. Its
dipositor is Jupiter, that coincidentally conjuncts Neptune. The open
enemies are expanding upon the illusion they prefer to see as truth.
If you take the dispositorship placings even further, Pluto in Leo to Sun in
Virgo to Mercury in Leo, it's the children and what they say, as well as the
child in himself, who will define his personal fate.
Any chart time will provide a story. Without being able to look into
Jackson's soul, no one may ever know or understand him.
But it makes good astrological exercises :-)
Regards,
Christine.
Libralove
seagt...@aol.com wrote on 11/25/03 12:08 AM:
> One of the most intriguing factors may be progressed Mars squaring natal
> Pluto.
> This progressed square has been going on for several years now, having moved
> into a 1-degree orb around 1986, then becoming exact in late 1992-- and still
> very close to exact in the latter part of 1993, when the first molestation
> case
> occurred. Then progressed Mars went stationary retrograde around 2000 or
> 2001,
> while still within a 1-degree orb, and it is now applying to the square again
> in retrograde motion. It looks like it will remain within a 1-degree orb
> until
> about 2014-- some 10 years from now. Considering that Michael Jackson could
> receive a sentence of 10 years if found guilty, this progressed square looks
> rather ominous to me. Note that natal Mars is in the 12th House, and is also
> very strong by sect-- it would be hayz, if not for the fact that it's in
> detriment in Taurus.
I did not look at the Sec. Progs. That is not good - that Sec. Prog. Mars
square Pluto for 10 years.
> To address LibraLove's question, I don't know where the money is in the 11:45
> p.m. chart, unless the fact that the Moon (hayz in Pisces, ruled traditionally
> by Jupiter) is the ruler of the 2nd House helps to explain it. Jupiter is the
> exalted ruler of the 2nd House, by the way. It's interesting that the
> combined
> 13th-Harmonic and 1st-Harmonic chart (as described in Robert Hand's "Essays on
> Astrology," about the dodekatemoria) has an extremely tight conjunction of the
> 13H Moon, 13H Jupiter, and 13H Midheaven, in the 5th House of the natal chart,
> which may suggest that creative self-expression (5th House) is an avenue for
> making money in his profession (13H Moon and 13H Jupiter, the ruler and
> exalted
> ruler of the 2nd House, in a conjunction with the 13H Midheaven).
>
> I don't know whether he's guilty or innocent of the charges, but even if he's
> innocent, it may not matter much if the jury feels that there was any
> impropriety involved in his behavior toward children.
>
> Michael Rideout
Since I could not reach Julian Armistead, lol, who I took Horary from in
NYC, I was forced to look up Hayz. Geez... that is a piece of the puzzle I
sure had neglected, plus the Sec Progressed stuff. Prog. Mars sq Pluto.
Michael is certainly thorough. I skip all over unless it is my chart or that
of a client's, so... I miss a lot in order to crunch through and keep making
a living. Michael leaves no stone unturned on a query and that is admirable!
Whether or not he is guilty of the charges that the boy has made will
hopefully be made clear. But one thing is certain, he is guilty of gross
stupidity (or arrogance or self-destruction) by continuing the sorts of
activities that got him in trouble a couple of years ago -- namely "young
boy sleep-overs" in his bed.
Best --- LL
H
"Libralove" <Libr...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BBE7BDC9.47C1%Libr...@austin.rr.com...
>
> Sun + Pluto in Virgo (Mercury ruling young people) = forever young and in
> power over the young.
>
> Do you you see it now?
Power "over" the young? Try-- serve and protection. I am a Sun-Pluto in
Virgo sextile Neptune just like Jackson, and I go to great lengths to
protect children from harm, (if you only knew) . If someone is abusing their
child in public, I'm the one who steps in and does something about it. Ya
just don't want to hurt a child in my presence!
My conjunction is in the 11th and other people's children gravitate towards
me like a magnet because they sense the protector in me. I empower kids--I
don't have power "over" them. Kids I do not even know run up and throw their
arms around me. I've always felt like Mother Earth to all kids. Hey I can't
explain it, it's just my life. There was a little kid on the airplane
tonight who crawled out of his Dad's lap and crossed the aisle to get to me
and jumped into my lap and stayed with me the whole flight. I see God in the
eyes of children--not adults. I could have 100 kids at my house and any
parent would know they were safer with me than anyone because an army would
have to come through , before I let someone harm a child .
I have never been surprised that kids gravitate towards Jackson. Let me
guess, I must be a child molester right? Oh please...
So if you want to rail on Jackson, find some other reason
other than his Su-Pl in Virgo sextile Neptune. That doesn't fly with me.
IMO, the majority of parents shouldn't even be parents, because all they
care about are themselves-- or taking million dollar bribes. ahemm. What
dirtbags . I hope they choked on the money. And any parent who would take
millions of dollars rather than put someone in jail for molesting their
child, should have their kids taken away from them because they suck as a
parent--big time. Don't *even* give me that line of bull that a parent
should take the money rather than put their kid through "whatever." That's a
crock of nonsense designed to cover up a parent's guilty conscience for
selling their own kid out. I wonder how much money this woman took from
Jackson before crying out "child molester". If she's any kind of human
being, she will give ALL the money and gifts back she accepted before
"blowing the whistle."
People might ask themselves why she went to the very same civil attorney
that got millions of dollars for the 1993 couple BEFORE she went to the
police. hmmm. uhh yeah, there's a real top notch "parent" eh? Someone who
goes to a civil attorney (who only gets people money) rather than filing a
criminal report FIRST.
Slime.
And if having plastic surgery makes Jacko "wacko," then hey--there are a lot
of wacko women out there having their boobs done several times, eyes done,
nose done, liposuction done, ass done and God knows what else done. Oh and
let's not forget the "wacko" men who have penis enlargements. I mean come
off it already. The hypocrisy is astounding. If how someone looks qualifies
them for "mental illness" well then I could walk out on the street and claim
half of them need to be in a straight jacket.
What the heck ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Although I will
say one thing, if Jackson goes to jail while O.J. Simpson walked free, there
is NO justice in our justice system. But then the law can be bought--so what
else is new...
H
Libralove
adb...@zerospamhotmail.com wrote on 11/29/03 3:10 AM:
>
> "Libralove" <Libr...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:BBE7BDC9.47C1%Libr...@austin.rr.com...
>>
>> Sun + Pluto in Virgo (Mercury ruling young people) = forever young and in
>> power over the young.
>
>>
>> Do you you see it now?
>
> Power "over" the young? Try-- serve and protection. I am a Sun-Pluto in
> Virgo sextile Neptune just like Jackson, and I go to great lengths to
> protect children from harm, (if you only knew) . If someone is abusing their
> child in public, I'm the one who steps in and does something about it. Ya
> just don't want to hurt a child in my presence!
And that is commendable.
>
> My conjunction is in the 11th and other people's children gravitate towards
> me like a magnet because they sense the protector in me. I empower kids--I
> don't have power "over" them. Kids I do not even know run up and throw their
> arms around me. I've always felt like Mother Earth to all kids. Hey I can't
> explain it, it's just my life. There was a little kid on the airplane
> tonight who crawled out of his Dad's lap and crossed the aisle to get to me
> and jumped into my lap and stayed with me the whole flight. I see God in the
> eyes of children--not adults. I could have 100 kids at my house and any
> parent would know they were safer with me than anyone because an army would
> have to come through , before I let someone harm a child .
>
> I have never been surprised that kids gravitate towards Jackson. Let me
> guess, I must be a child molester right? Oh please...
Hey, Heather! Sorry that you took my analysis of Jackson's chart so
personally. Do you have the exact same chart as Jackson with all that Venus,
Mars, Scorpio? Just the one aspect was not what I was discussing. You
snipped all but that one aspect from my posts. One aspect does not hold the
person's totally. All of us know that! It is the interpolation of all of
them together as a package.
>
>
> So if you want to rail on Jackson, find some other reason
> other than his Su-Pl in Virgo sextile Neptune. That doesn't fly with me.
> IMO, the majority of parents shouldn't even be parents, because all they
> care about are themselves-- or taking million dollar bribes. ahemm. What
> dirtbags . I hope they choked on the money. And any parent who would take
> millions of dollars rather than put someone in jail for molesting their
> child, should have their kids taken away from them because they suck as a
> parent--big time. Don't *even* give me that line of bull that a parent
> should take the money rather than put their kid through "whatever." That's a
> crock of nonsense designed to cover up a parent's guilty conscience for
> selling their own kid out. I wonder how much money this woman took from
> Jackson before crying out "child molester". If she's any kind of human
> being, she will give ALL the money and gifts back she accepted before
> "blowing the whistle."
First off, it were my child, I would not be naive enough to send my kid to
an overnighter after what was alleged to have happened in 1993. I would have
taken it as a warning.
According to authorities, the events on this boy were very recent and after
he taped his mother having said he did not molest the boy.
>
> People might ask themselves why she went to the very same civil attorney
> that got millions of dollars for the 1993 couple BEFORE she went to the
> police. hmmm. uhh yeah, there's a real top notch "parent" eh? Someone who
> goes to a civil attorney (who only gets people money) rather than filing a
> criminal report FIRST.
>
> Slime.
>
> And if having plastic surgery makes Jacko "wacko," then hey--there are a lot
> of wacko women out there having their boobs done several times, eyes done,
> nose done, liposuction done, ass done and God knows what else done. Oh and
> let's not forget the "wacko" men who have penis enlargements. I mean come
> off it already. The hypocrisy is astounding. If how someone looks qualifies
> them for "mental illness" well then I could walk out on the street and claim
> half of them need to be in a straight jacket.
If you call what he has "cosmetic facial surgery" then you and I have a
totally different view about what "cosmetic" means. "Plastic surgery" I will
go with. His face is a plastic face of a female clown. This man has
mutilated himself and to me that indicates that has some rather severe
psychological problems.
>
> What the heck ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Although I will
> say one thing, if Jackson goes to jail while O.J. Simpson walked free, there
> is NO justice in our justice system. But then the law can be bought--so what
> else is new...
This is just a repeat of 1993, and yes, hopefully the truth will come out in
a trial. However, people very close to Jackson and people who have been
following him have said that "where there is smoke there is fire" in this
case, but again it may be very difficult to prove. This particular boy is
very, very sick at this time and might not survive the trial.
But authorities have suggested, "NO more little boy sleepovers at the
Jackson house". ;)
Best -- LL
>
>
> H
Graham
California's child molestation law...
http://www.geocities.com/TheTruthAbout288a/
Libralove <Libr...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:<BBEE19F9.4995%Libr...@austin.rr.com>...
comes...@hotmail.com
survive the trial.>>
If this is true, I'm very sad to hear it. As I understand it, he is, in
fact the boy who appeared in the documentary with the British journalist
earlier this year. (Recent reruns now obscure the boy's features,
understandably). He and his family stated that he had been ill, and his
life despaired of, but that he was recovering, and was apparently doing
well. He appeared to be the picture of health. He also exhibited much
apparently sincere affection toward Jackson, and spoke in defense of
his sleepovers, which suggests that if there was any impropriety shown
toward him, it was after the documentary was filmed. I've also heard
that after the program aired, the boy's schoolmates saw his behavior on
tv and began tormenting him to the point that he needed a psychiatrist,
whereupon the revelation of molestation. That documentary was, in fact,
a real catalyst for this whole matter. But much, very much remains to be
known of this case. Hopefully, justice will be served.
~ Roger
Mike Walton
H
"Mike Walton" <mikewa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d2701d5a.03112...@posting.google.com...
> He is obviously innocent, but why is he being framed -is it just
ignorance?
>
> http://www.geocities.com/tom5515/frame.htm
>
Well, never say obvious without knowing the facts ;-)
In 1993 , the first words out of my mouth were " he's being framed." Jackson
is an easy target IMO, and I laugh my butt off that just because the guy
went overboard with plastic surgery, people think he must be "guilty"
because he's a "freak" now. Such are the workings of irrational minds who do
not belong on a jury. The media has done quite the hatchet job. But evidence
is evidence, and I want to hear the details when they finally come out. That
trial probably won't even happen for a year anyway. I did read the 1994 GQ
article years ago entitled, 'Was Michael Jackson Framed?' and I must say,
none of it surprised me. It had excerpts from tape-recorded conversations of
the father who was after Jackson's ass back when TR. Pluto in Scorpio was
opposing his Mars in Taurus. Talk about money-grubbing slime...
Diane Dimond makes me ill and I think she would do and say anything to get
her name out there, I have always questioned her ethics. Nancy Grace while
an aggressive prosecutor with an incredible winning record, can be a bit
emotional for my taste about this particular case. Don't even ask me what I
really think of Gloria Alred---someone needs to put a muzzle on that dog.
The problem with many attorneys is they will do anything to win at any
cost--forgetting what the words 'justice' and 'fairness' really mean.
H
Christine
<comes...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:4838-3FC...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> <<This particular boy is very, very sick at this time, and might not
> survive the trial.>>
>
> If this is true, I'm very sad to hear it. As I understand it, he is, in
> fact the boy who appeared in the documentary with the British journalist
> earlier this year. (Recent reruns now obscure the boy's features,
> understandably).
As I read LL's post, her comment referred to Jackson himself ?
[..]
. I've also heard
> that after the program aired, the boy's schoolmates saw his behavior on
> tv and began tormenting him to the point that he needed a psychiatrist,
> whereupon the revelation of molestation.
If this is true, I think you may have hit a nail firmly on the head; which
would make this whole farce even worse and Jackson 'truly' the victim rather
than assailant. Child torment/pestering/bullying inflicts such great
psychological damage of which the parents may not have been aware...so blame
the nearest scapegoat.
Nothing about the MJ case reaches our media channels, so all I know is from
what you all write :-)
Regards,
Christine.
comes...@hotmail.com
<<Nothing about the MJ case reaces our media channels, so all I know s
from what you all write.>>
You don't know how fortunate you are, Christine: the major American
"news" networks have indulged in a veritable bloodbath of assumption of
guilt toward Jackson. From day one he has been given a tv trial, and
found guilty. It's biased media at its most disgusting. It's also a good
example of what can happen to someone with a badly afflicted 10th house,
as MJ apparently has.
~ Roger
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <aWhyb.22267$sb4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"H" <adb...@zerospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Mike Walton" <mikewa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:d2701d5a.03112...@posting.google.com...
>> He is obviously innocent, but why is he being framed -is it just
>ignorance?
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/tom5515/frame.htm
>>
>
>Well, never say obvious without knowing the facts ;-)
RM: Ok, let's look at the facts below:
How many people can you offend in two paragraphs :-))
>
>In 1993 , the first words out of my mouth were " he's being framed.
[1] The "Framers" (no evidence I might add H)
>" Jackson
>is an easy target IMO, and I laugh my butt off that just because the guy
>went overboard with plastic surgery, people think he must be "guilty"
>because he's a "freak" now. Such are the workings of irrational minds who do
>not belong on a jury.
[2] "Irrational people" (because they are suspicious).
>The media has done quite the hatchet job.
[3] "The media" (false reporting accusation without evidence H).
>But evidence
>is evidence, and I want to hear the details when they finally come out. That
>trial probably won't even happen for a year anyway. I did read the 1994 GQ
>article years ago entitled, 'Was Michael Jackson Framed?' and I must say,
>none of it surprised me. It had excerpts from tape-recorded conversations of
>the father who was after Jackson's ass
[4] "The father" (no evidence of extortion here H).
>back when TR. Pluto in Scorpio was
>opposing his Mars in Taurus. Talk about money-grubbing slime...
[5] "The father" again] (no evidence for extortion here H)
>
>Diane Dimond makes me ill and I think she would do
>and say anything to get her name out there, I have always questioned
her ethics.
[6] "Dianne Dimond" (unscrupulous accusaton without evidence H).
>Nancy Grace while an aggressive prosecutor with an
>incredible winning record, can be a bit emotional for my taste
>about this particular case.
[7] "Nancy Grace" ("emotional" - no evidence, only opinion H)
>Don't even ask me what I really think of Gloria Alred
> ---someone needs to put a muzzle on that dog.
[8] "Gloria Alred" (accusation of impropriety without evidence H).
>The problem with many attorneys is they will do anything to win at any
>cost--forgetting what the words 'justice' and 'fairness' really mean.
[9] "Attorneys"
Attorneys are not engaged to fight for justice - they are engaged to
win, and that is precisely how the British (and later the American
legal system) was set up.
The whole concept is to "fight like dogs" because it is _supposed_ to
bring out the fairest results - unlike some European systems which
have investigating Magistrates or Judges who are more concerned with
establishing all the facts and circumstances surrounding each case.
I'm not promoting one system or the other, but face the facts.
Attorneys are not interested in Justice.
>
>H
Ray
H
"Ray Murphy" <ray...@chariot.net.au> wrote in message
news:3fcba...@news.chariot.net.au...
>
> >Well, never say obvious without knowing the facts ;-)
>
>
> RM: Ok, let's look at the facts below:
> How many people can you offend in two paragraphs :-))
Funny you should say that. Hey I know my tongue is razor sharp--it goes with
the territory . Someone just called me recently to ask if I would be
interested in slicing people up for a magazine column. Problem was, who they
wanted me to slice up I did not wish to do . I don't like to slice and dice
just anyone. ;-)
<snipped the dog chase>
> I'm not promoting one system or the other, but face the facts.
> Attorneys are not interested in Justice.
> >
Well I agree, but back when I was in college I was ahemm something of an
idealist apparently. I was taking a pre-law class because I had entertained
the idea of becoming an attorney. Well my reasons for wanting to do so were
in fact because I AM interested in fairness and justice. However when my
professor asked me point blank "If you knew for a fact that your client had
committed murder could you still defend him?" I replied, "no". Therefore I
would have a hard time being a defense attorney with a clear conscience. I
was raised to win, but only if it was fair and just. I could never live with
myself if I helped a murderer go free. Looking back I would have liked to
have litigated medical malpractice suits for patients--forget the murderers.
So instead I double-majored in Psychology and English rather than Law.
Rather than defending people, I ended up studying how their minds work ;-)
If you ever want to see a good movie, get 'And Justice For All ' starring Al
Pacino. There is a courtroom scene that is hilarious, when Pacino blows his
stack because he can't handle the fact that he is faced with getting a
particular client off scott-free. It's his job, but he rebels in a very
shocking way ;-) It's excellent. Now if reality would imitate that fictional
movie, the world would be a better place.
The justice system stinks IMO.
H
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <V_Pyb.23298$n56....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"H" <adb...@zerospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Ray Murphy" <ray...@chariot.net.au> wrote in message
>news:3fcba...@news.chariot.net.au...
>>
>> >Well, never say obvious without knowing the facts ;-)
>>
>>
>> RM: Ok, let's look at the facts below:
>> How many people can you offend in two paragraphs :-))
>
>
>Funny you should say that. Hey I know my tongue is razor sharp--it goes with
>the territory . Someone just called me recently to ask if I would be
>interested in slicing people up for a magazine column. Problem was, who they
>wanted me to slice up I did not wish to do . I don't like to slice and dice
>just anyone. ;-)
RM: I find that surprising because I thought it was a systematic
process where you tried your luck on everyone.
This of course means I'll have to go back through all the names at
aamod to see who you have left out.
>
><snipped the dog chase>
>
>> I'm not promoting one system or the other, but face the facts.
>> Attorneys are not interested in Justice.
>> >
>
>Well I agree, but back when I was in college I was ahemm something of an
>idealist apparently.
RM: I don't suppose you were smoking dope at the time, because that
might account for such an illusion?
>I was taking a pre-law class because I had entertained
>the idea of becoming an attorney.
RM: Was anyone else entertained by that idea?
>Well my reasons for wanting to do so were
>in fact because I AM interested in fairness and justice. However when my
>professor asked me point blank "If you knew for a fact that your client had
>committed murder could you still defend him?" I replied, "no". Therefore I
>would have a hard time being a defense attorney with a clear conscience.
RM: It sounds like you were set up by your professor because s/he like
all lawyers would already know the answer to an important question
before asking it.
Let me guess - you were offering your free advice to your professor?
>I was raised to win, but only if it was fair and just. I could never
live with
>myself if I helped a murderer go free. Looking back I would have liked to
>have litigated medical malpractice suits for patients--forget the murderers.
>So instead I double-majored in Psychology and English rather than Law.
>Rather than defending people, I ended up studying how their minds work ;-)
RM: I find that surprising too -- you know, having a legal bent and
also a BA in Psychology and yet you still made a firm diagnosis of my
pesonality type without indicating it was merely an opinion.
>
>If you ever want to see a good movie, get 'And Justice For All ' starring Al
>Pacino. There is a courtroom scene that is hilarious, when Pacino blows his
>stack because he can't handle the fact that he is faced with getting a
>particular client off scott-free. It's his job, but he rebels in a very
>shocking way ;-) It's excellent. Now if reality would imitate that fictional
>movie, the world would be a better place.
RM: Yes I've seen it a few times.
Another one which goes hand in hand with that, is the one about the
Judges who conspire to deal with accused people who were apparently
guilty but had been found not guilty.
>
>The justice system stinks IMO.
RM: It is probably the legal system you are referring to. It dispenses
a minimal amount of justice - particularly when it cannot affect the
outcome of a case or when it would look like corruption if it didn't.
Procedural fairness (or Natural Justice) - which is common law anyway,
is what the legal system is compelled to provide, but that is often
interpreted as doing someone a favour or "letting justice be seen to
be done".
>
>H
Ray
H
>
> >
> >Well I agree, but back when I was in college I was ahemm something of an
> >idealist apparently.
>
> RM: I don't suppose you were smoking dope at the time, because that
> might account for such an illusion?
No Ray. Drugs are for losers.
>
> >I was taking a pre-law class because I had entertained
> >the idea of becoming an attorney.
>
> RM: Was anyone else entertained by that idea?
Silly boy.
>
> >Well my reasons for wanting to do so were
> >in fact because I AM interested in fairness and justice. However when my
> >professor asked me point blank "If you knew for a fact that your client
had
> >committed murder could you still defend him?" I replied, "no". Therefore
I
> >would have a hard time being a defense attorney with a clear conscience.
>
> RM: It sounds like you were set up by your professor because s/he like
> all lawyers would already know the answer to an important question
> before asking it.
> Let me guess - you were offering your free advice to your professor?
No I wasn't giving free advice smarty pants. If I wanted to be a defense
attorney I should have answered yes, because by law every person is entitled
to legal representation whether they are guilty or not. While yes I know
that is true, in good conscience I couldn't represent a client who I knew
was guilty of murder. Now if someone gave me explicit instructions that my
job was merely to attack the prosecution's case and rip it to shreds I
could do that, but inside I would still know I was representing a murderer.
The O.J. Simpson case was very disturbing to me because he walked free.
Given a different jury, I bet they would have convicted him but there were
other factors at play in that case IMO that I would never discuss openly in
public.
I indeed would end up like Pacino yelling "you're out of order, this whole
damn courtroom is out of order!" ;-)
BTW if you don't mind me asking, what did you study in college besides how
to annoy people?
> RM: I find that surprising too -- you know, having a legal bent and
> also a BA in Psychology and yet you still made a firm diagnosis of my
> pesonality type without indicating it was merely an opinion.
Your personality issues are easy to recognize Ray. ;-)
> >
> >If you ever want to see a good movie, get 'And Justice For All ' starring
Al
> >Pacino. There is a courtroom scene that is hilarious, when Pacino blows
his
> >stack because he can't handle the fact that he is faced with getting a
> >particular client off scott-free. It's his job, but he rebels in a very
> >shocking way ;-) It's excellent. Now if reality would imitate that
fictional
> >movie, the world would be a better place.
>
> RM: Yes I've seen it a few times.
> Another one which goes hand in hand with that, is the one about the
> Judges who conspire to deal with accused people who were apparently
> guilty but had been found not guilty.
Would that have been called 'The Star Chamber' with Michael Douglas and Hal
Holbrook ? I just watched a re-run of a good one last night with Tom Selleck
playing a Judge who is drawn into exposing corrupt Judges in a sting
operation. Lots of interesting twists. Umm what was the title oh -- 'Broken
Trust.'
H
Mike Walton
I think justice is in the eye of the beholder. Everything is oo
politically motivated --I mean, Linda Tripp works for the Feds now
--how perverse is that?
Geragos understands justice. Allred thinks that Tripp is a patriot.
Even Linda Tripp thinks she's a Patriot --very delusional....
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <j4Uyb.24809$n56....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"H" <adb...@zerospamhotmail.com> wrote:
RM: So what are you trying to say here -- you set out to become a
defence attorney, knowing that you would not become one because of
your principles?
Why not then focus upon prosecuting?
>Now if someone gave me explicit instructions that my
>job was merely to attack the prosecution's case and rip it to shreds I
>could do that, but inside I would still know I was representing a murderer.
RM: No one gives attorneys explicit instructions like that. You would
be required to use your own initiative, based upon your education,
ability and experience; and what's more you would have a legal
obligation to do MORE than just that.
>The O.J. Simpson case was very disturbing to me because he walked free.
>Given a different jury, I bet they would have convicted him but there were
>other factors at play in that case IMO that I would never discuss openly in
>public.
>
>I indeed would end up like Pacino yelling "you're out of order, this whole
>damn courtroom is out of order!" ;-)
>
>BTW if you don't mind me asking, what did you study in college besides how
>to annoy people?
RM: No, I don't mind you asking because I don't see it as a personal
question; however your question is a bit vague because we don't have
"college" nor do we have the "annoying people" on the curriculum at
any of the universities in Australia.
>
>
>> RM: I find that surprising too -- you know, having a legal bent and
>> also a BA in Psychology and yet you still made a firm diagnosis of my
>> pesonality type without indicating it was merely an opinion.
>
>Your personality issues are easy to recognize Ray. ;-)
RM: Yes people's personality issues are easy to recognise by the
ordinary person - including young children; however the diagnosing
particular personality types is a risky business.
>
>> >
>> >If you ever want to see a good movie, get 'And Justice For All ' starring
>> >Al Pacino. There is a courtroom scene that is hilarious, when Pacino blows
>> >his stack because he can't handle the fact that he is faced with getting a
>> >particular client off scott-free. It's his job, but he rebels in a very
>> >shocking way ;-) It's excellent. Now if reality would imitate that
>> >fictional movie, the world would be a better place.
>>
>> RM: Yes I've seen it a few times.
>> Another one which goes hand in hand with that, is the one about the
>> Judges who conspire to deal with accused people who were apparently
>> guilty but had been found not guilty.
>
>
>Would that have been called 'The Star Chamber' with Michael Douglas and Hal
>Holbrook ?
RM: Yes that sounds familiar, and Michael Douglas was in it.
It was the one where the shoe(s) were inadmissable evidence.
>I just watched a re-run of a good one last night with Tom Selleck
>playing a Judge who is drawn into exposing corrupt Judges in a sting
>operation. Lots of interesting twists. Umm what was the title oh -- 'Broken
>Trust.'
RM: It sounds vaguely familiar, but I'll look out for it.
>
>H
Ray
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <d2701d5a.0312...@posting.google.com>,
mikewa...@yahoo.com (Mike Walton) wrote:
RM: I cannot argue with any of that because I don't even know who some
of these people are; but what you're saying sounds awfully familiar
for other public matters in your country and mine.
Yes, people are certainly delusional at times, but at other times they
/ we simply focus upon winning rather than fairness.
Ray
H
>
> RM: So what are you trying to say here -- you set out to become a
> defence attorney, knowing that you would not become one because of
> your principles?
> Why not then focus upon prosecuting?
>
I have a subconscious desire to defend people, I have my whole life. So of
course I thought defense rather than offense (prosecuting) was more natural
for me. But when I was 18, I didn't know how slimy the legal system was, so
knowing myself as I do, I probably would have quit my job all ticked off at
the lack of justice. But that's hindsight. :-)
H
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <xzhzb.25759$sb4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"H" <adb...@zerospamhotmail.com> wrote:
RM: There are probably some good theories floating around in the
Psychological profession which attempt to explain a desire to defend
others - depending upon whether the disposition is acquired or inate
(or even real).
Of course astrological knowledge of people's charts would assist with
that speculation considerably because in some cases it would be merely
a vehicle for expresing one's personality in more socially acceptable
ways.
It's a bit late now, but you could have joined the army and become an
expert at using the PSYOPS manual; although I wouldn't be surprised if
you have memorised parts of it just for fun :-)
Ray