another school shooting
Cmaydn
I thought we might compare the charts of these events and see if there
are any similarities. Stated times are from news articles online. If
anyone has the times on file for the starred items, please post. I'll
update with any results I find. Thanks.
Recent shootings involving U.S. schools:
April 20, 1999 - shooting at Columbine High in Littleton, CO (11:30
am)
May 21, 1998 - Springfield, Oregon (about 8:00am.) Two teen-agers are
fatally shot and more than 20 people are hurt when 15-year-old boy
allegedly opens fire at high school in Springfield, Ore. His parents
are found slain at their home. He is awaiting trial.
**May 19, 1998 - Three days before his graduation, an 18-year-old
honor student allegedly opens fire in parking lot at high school in
Fayetteville, Tenn., killing a classmate who was dating his
ex-girlfriend. He is awaiting trial.
**April 24, 1998 - A science teacher is shot to death in front of
students at eighth-grade graduation dance in Edinboro, Pa. A
14-year-old student awaits trial.
**March 24, 1998 - ("just after lunch") Four girls and a teacher are
shot to death and 10 people wounded during false fire alarm at middle
school in Jonesboro, Ark., when two boys, 11 and 13, open fire from
the woods. Both are convicted in juvenile court of murder and can be
held up to age 21.
Dec. 1, 1997 - (7:45 a.m.) Three students are killed and five others
wounded in a hallway at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky. A
14-year-old student is arrested. One of the wounded girls is left
paralyzed.
Oct. 1, 1997 - (8:10 a.m) A 16-year-old boy in Pearl, Miss., is
accused of killing his mother, then going to his high school and
shooting nine students, two fatally. He is sentenced to life in
prison. Two others await trial on accessory charges.
----
OFFICIAL NOTIFICATION: DO NOT send commercial e-mail.
Mail at reply-to address is not picked up.
Gail Klein
or thereabouts, had the Mars Saturn opposition yesterday hitting
natal Pluto in Scorpio. It would be nice to get their natal data.
Does anyone have any observations pertinent to social changes subsequent
to the last Pluto in Scorpio period? (Before the one in this century,
I mean.)
--
Jonathan C. Dunn
This was posted to one of the lists:
"MSNBC just gave the birthdata for the two shooters in a press conference held
by the Jefferson County Sheriffs Dept.
Eric Harris
April 9, 1981
I missed the second shooters name (Cleybold?)
September 11, 1981
No place of birth was given."
All the best,
1-JD
*****************************************************************************
jon...@speakeasy.org http://www.speakeasy.org/~jondunn/
*****************************************************************************
Gail Klein
>Gail,
>This was posted to one of the lists:
>"MSNBC just gave the birthdata for the two shooters in a press conference held
>by the Jefferson County Sheriffs Dept.
>Eric Harris
>April 9, 1981
Whoa, look at that Sun Venus Mars conjunction opposite natal Pluto!
And Jupiter Saturn conjunction opposite Mercury. Eesh. Oosh. Ouch.
And probably a Moon Neptune opposition, too. Practically everything
in Aries and Libra. I should run the solar charts and look at the
progressions. And see where the transiting t-square fits in.
>I missed the second shooters name (Cleybold?)
>September 11, 1981
Well this one had his Mars set off at 5-6 Leo, and Sun at 18 Virgo,
by the transit.
>No place of birth was given."
>All the best,
> 1-JD
Thanks, Jon!
Gail
>*****************************************************************************
> jon...@speakeasy.org http://www.speakeasy.org/~jondunn/
>*****************************************************************************
--
Michael Solomon
cma...@iname.com (Cmaydn) wrote:
Thanks for all the homework. I am doing the same. I did get a little tidbit
of information about Littleton, CO. history. I am going to do a piece
comparing the chart of the town, the chart of the school and the chart of the
shooting. I'll post in a day or so.
Anyone have the birth data on the kids? I haven't seen any yet. The whole
affair reads Mars, Saturn and Pluto. I felt so sad when I heard one of the
boys last will and testament read on TV. "No one ever loved me". But, I
really want to see what in his astrology could generate such desire for
destruction and revenge.
There was a Mars, Saturn and Pluto stellium in Libra during the year that
these boys were born. But it seems to me like a huge population of teens are
extremely violent and self-destructive. We have "gun on school campus"
reports on the local news on a very regular basis which rarely make national
headlines. In LA, we are having so much trouble with street gangs
infiltrating the schools and taking over the entire South and East side of
Los Angeles. It's just tremendously frightening to me. Hard to look at.
I feel so horrible about this "trend" we are experiencing in America. There
have been way too many shooting sprees. We mustn't forget about the Post
Office shootings and other such workplace shootings. The other trend we are
seeing a definite increase in is televised high-speed chases on the freeway
and freeway "stand-offs". Twice in the last year we have witnessed the
televised deaths of suicide bombers on TV. One this week. I think the same
day as the shooting. In the last few years, especially here in Southern
California, it has just gotten out of hand. On Sunday night we got stuck in
bumper to bumper traffic for an hour on the Hollywood Freeway as 20 swat-team
police dealt with an armed man who took over a RTD Bus on the freeway. What
are we as a people going to do? I get a sick feeling about this whole issue.
I ask myself everyday. What astrological influence is creating this? What
could it be. Someone suggested the discovery of new centaurs in space?
Centaurs could be responsible for the increase in violence. They were feared
denizens of the deep in ancient times. Or, is it the progressed chart of the
United States? Anyone have any ideas?
For more information about the author of this post visit
http://www.geocities.com/~soloart98/about.html
Questions and comments may be sent directly to: mds...@geocities.com
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The 'Centaurs', a new type of astral body discovered in 1977, comprises a
cluster of stars (nine total, so far discovered) in the outer solar system,
including Chiron, Pholus, and Nessus. These outer solar system clusters are
studied using the methods of near-infrared spectroscopy with ground-based
telescopes, and with the help of ultraviolet and photo-visual spectral region
data from ground-based and orbiting telescopes, and generally are debated to
be either comets or asteroids. As for their orbits, Chiron, as some may
already know, orbits between Saturn and Uranus (reaching its apehelion nearly
to the orbit of Uranus and its perihelion nearer the sun than Saturn's
closest perihelion). Pholus, an unusually red body, orbits between Saturn and
Neptune with eccentricity equal to .574. Nessus (eccentricity .523) orbits
between mid-Saturn/Uranus and Pluto. General opinion is that these bodies
escaped from the Kuiper belt (beyond Neptune). Chiron, by the way, reached
perihelion on February 14, 1996, and has been moving towards apehelion ever
since.
On another, more picky, note, Centaurs actually originated in Greek mythology,
and enjoyed a long period of revived popularity in the Middle Ages. With the
body of a horse and the torso and head of a human, centaurian legends centered
around the mythical beasts' incomprable ability as archers. I bring this up
because of the reference to it in the post below, and the interesting
correlation between the Centaur legends and Saggitarius, its astrological
counterpart.
Sincerely,
In article <7fopq7$ro3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
David Hecht
It looks like the Aries was the instigator here and the Virgo the
follower. Note the "sun square neptune" aspect in the latter. He also
had 'jupiter conj. sun", which would not seem to bode for such actions.
Both had "venus/pluto" aspects which could explain why they were hanging
around together in lieu of dating, etc. and all that Libra really speaks
to the social need. Yet, why them? I do think the clues are in the
"Aries" chart with the "sun trine neptune" indicating same ability to be
taken over by an ideal but easier in facilitation. "Saturn/jupiter"
conjunct in "Libra" would seem rather charismatic. Could also go to
infamy and opportunity for publicity all through enhanced engagement of
"others".
It appears that they both had strong social need as all the "Libra"
stuff implies as do the kids in their class who were born during that
year, Hence, this whole thing has a collective energy to it,i.e. some
sort of extreme lesson about social fairness, which became very
subjective due to the involvement of everyone in this concept. Would
like to see if the victims were at least primarily in that age group to
give veracity to this direction. Sort of like a bunch of people
incarnating to carry out a social drama on the birthday (110) of someone
who did a rather good job along those lines himself.
Just some preliminary thoughts.
Dave
addendum:
Might be interesting to note the degree of opposition between their
charts to indicate how much they represented the projection they were
doing into the world to each other and created influence, rationale,
etc..
mercury-17°
venus-20°
sun-35°
uranus-71°
saturn-96°
n.node/m.c.-102°
pluto-128°
jupiter-168°
chiron-177°
neptune-184°
asc.-190°
moon-199°
mars-355°
Ali Hassan
T-square forms in Cardinal signs: Moon 17* Aries12'; Mars
18*Libra21'; Jupiter 16*Cancer00'R.
Pluto, 25*Cap45' by progression is within 5' of exact with
the Southnode prog. @ 25*Capricorn50' and closing.( In the
9th house, using the traditional Gemini ascendant). I would
call that significant.
The transiting T-square in or around 5* of the Fixed signs
brings to mind the Iran hostage crisis, which featured a
fixed sign progression around 4* of the Fixed signs- I think
it was a progressed Full-moon in Aquarius/Leo bisected by
Saturn R in 4* Scorpio.
The two NASA disasters, the space shuttle and the
asphyxiation of the 3 astronauts both occurred with the Sun
conj. the natal 9th house Southnode @ 6 Aquarius.(BTW, the
Shuttle disaster was a textbook case compared with the U.S.
chart of when *not* to launch an important venture. Tell it
to NASA, eh?)
So I would venture that that area, 5-6* Fixed, of the U.S.
chart has a very sensitive karmic significance. Perhaps the
nodal positions represent America's last incarnation......?
Jonathan C. Dunn
that makes it sound like they are outside of our solar system! They all travel
in different paths, and so aren't really seen ever in a "cluster". Also, as
asteroid/cometary bodies, they wouldn't be classified as "stars" like our Sun.
Thanks.
*****************************************************************************
jon...@speakeasy.org http://www.speakeasy.org/~jondunn/
*****************************************************************************
Gail Klein
>Gail,
>It looks like the Aries was the instigator here and the Virgo the
>follower. Note the "sun square neptune" aspect in the latter. He also
>had 'jupiter conj. sun", which would not seem to bode for such actions.
>Both had "venus/pluto" aspects which could explain why they were hanging
And Wednesday there was also a transiting Venus Pluto opposition.
I still haven't done the charts yet, though.
>around together in lieu of dating, etc. and all that Libra really speaks
>to the social need. Yet, why them? I do think the clues are in the
>"Aries" chart with the "sun trine neptune" indicating same ability to be
>taken over by an ideal but easier in facilitation. "Saturn/jupiter"
>conjunct in "Libra" would seem rather charismatic. Could also go to
>infamy and opportunity for publicity all through enhanced engagement of
>"others".
>It appears that they both had strong social need as all the "Libra"
>stuff implies as do the kids in their class who were born during that
>year, Hence, this whole thing has a collective energy to it,i.e. some
>sort of extreme lesson about social fairness,
I agree here, with a slight twist. I think the affluence of that
particular community is an emblem of making a god of money and privilege
at the expense of spirit and emotion. This story really brings out my
Socialist streak. When I read that these parents (of the senior class)
spent $50,000.00 on an after-prom party, my stomach gets tied in knots.
This is the price of giving kids everything but time, attention,
boundaries, limits, responsiveness. It's from these things that
meaningfulness is drawn. When there's no meaningfulness, it means
nothing to kill. And yet these people are surprised?! The homicidal
teens were not some sort of isolated aberration, but a representation
of whatever's wrong. The sickness is endemic - these particular kids
were the symptom, or the erupting boil. Meaningfulness can be as lacking
in poverty as it is in wealth, but I think what aggravates me so much
is this arrogance of that community - that their wealth and insularity
were enough to make bad things impossible, never once realizing what
part they play in creating bad things. And this is likely how it will
be; the homicidal teens will be brushed off as separate embodiments
of evil - they won't see the underlying sickness which connects them
all together. I'm rambling, and I doubt I'm communicating as well as
I want to. I'm extremely angry about all of it.
>which became very
>subjective due to the involvement of everyone in this concept. Would
>like to see if the victims were at least primarily in that age group to
>give veracity to this direction. Sort of like a bunch of people
>incarnating to carry out a social drama on the birthday (110) of someone
>who did a rather good job along those lines himself.
I think the victims' ages ranged from 14 to 47. Most were 17 and 18.
And - happy birthday (in advance), Dave! Saturn is soon to square
my Venus so I think I'll be taking a bit of a hiatus from posting
until it's through. I'm still reachable through email though.
Good wishes to all. Gentle May.
Gail
>Just some preliminary thoughts.
>Dave
>addendum:
>Might be interesting to note the degree of opposition between their
>charts to indicate how much they represented the projection they were
>doing into the world to each other and created influence, rationale,
>etc..
>mercury-170
>venus-200
>sun-350
>uranus-710
>saturn-960
>n.node/m.c.-1020
>pluto-1280
>jupiter-1680
>chiron-1770
>neptune-1840
>asc.-1900
>moon-1990
>mars-3550
David Hecht
Thanks for the "birthday" wishes. Your point regarding the "affluence"
situation is very well taken and your anger understood as it is
something which bothers me as well, i.e. another "seperative" element
which serves to rationalize/justify cruelty and inhumanity. Thank you
for sharing that insight as I will factor it in to my further
considerations on this and related matters. Will speak with a
non-astrological but rather wise (Capricorn) friend on the phone today
and run your angle past him. Hope your haitus is peaceful.
Dave
Jim/Janine
>
> In article <371dec6d....@news.jump.net>,
> cma...@iname.com (Cmaydn) wrote:
>
> Anyone have the birth data on the kids? I haven't seen any yet. The whole
> affair reads Mars, Saturn and Pluto. I felt so sad when I heard one of the
> boys last will and testament read on TV. "No one ever loved me". But, I
> really want to see what in his astrology could generate such desire for
> destruction and revenge.
>
> There was a Mars, Saturn and Pluto stellium in Libra during the year that
> these boys were born. But it seems to me like a huge population of teens are
> extremely violent and self-destructive. We have "gun on school campus"
> reports on the local news on a very regular basis which rarely make national
> headlines. In LA, we are having so much trouble with street gangs
> infiltrating the schools and taking over the entire South and East side of
> Los Angeles. It's just tremendously frightening to me. Hard to look at.
I don't think statistics bear out the
idea that today's teens are particularly
violent; I'm pretty sure that they're
less violent than today's 20-somethings
were when they were teens. We have to
be careful to distinguish between things
that are happening more often and things
that are getting more attention; just
because we are paying more attention to
something does not mean it is more
important. (IMO, this fallacy underlies
our nation's involvement in Kosovo.)
I'll bet there are many "gun in parking
lot" or "gun in living room" incidents
in L.A. that not only don't make the
national headlines, they don't make the
local news. We find some types of
violence much more interesting than
other types. It might be worthwhile to
look at why that is.
>
> I feel so horrible about this "trend" we are experiencing in America. There
> have been way too many shooting sprees. We mustn't forget about the Post
> Office shootings and other such workplace shootings. The other trend we are
> seeing a definite increase in is televised high-speed chases on the freeway
> and freeway "stand-offs". Twice in the last year we have witnessed the
> televised deaths of suicide bombers on TV. One this week. I think the same
> day as the shooting. In the last few years, especially here in Southern
> California, it has just gotten out of hand. On Sunday night we got stuck in
> bumper to bumper traffic for an hour on the Hollywood Freeway as 20 swat-team
> police dealt with an armed man who took over a RTD Bus on the freeway. What
> are we as a people going to do? I get a sick feeling about this whole issue.
America *is* a very violent society,
much more so than comparable nations,
and we do have to ask ourselves some
hard questions about why. But again, I
think a big part of the trend here is
the increase in *televised* high-speed
chases--these chases are big
money-makers for local TV in terms of
ratings, so you can be sure that if one
occurs, you're going to be seeing it.
Everyone's got a have a news chopper,
even if it means shutting down your
Sacramento bureau.
Jim
>
> I ask myself everyday. What astrological influence is creating this? What
> could it be. Someone suggested the discovery of new centaurs in space?
> Centaurs could be responsible for the increase in violence. They were feared
> denizens of the deep in ancient times. Or, is it the progressed chart of the
> United States? Anyone have any ideas?
>
When you're analyzing a person's natal
chart, I think it's important to stress
that the planets are not *causes*;
Neptune (or whatever) doesn't make you
become an alcoholic, it's a symbol of
things within you (or maybe around you)
that make you susceptible to
alcoholism. You can choose to manifest
your character traits in different ways.
Likewise, when doing mundane astrology,
I think it's important to keep in mind
that the planets don't cause things on
Earth. There are very real factors that
make us a violent nation: I would cite
among them a highly unequal distribution
of wealth, sharp racial divisions, ready
availability of lethal weaponry, the war
on drugs (think Prohibition and Al
Capone), and a long tradition of
indiscriminate use of military force.
(Every day you hear on the news what new
things our government bombed today. Are
kids supposed to figure out that it's
good to bomb people that you hate in
other countries but you must never,
never bomb people you hate at home?)
Astrology may--or may not--help us to
understand the causes of violence. But
astrological forces are not the causes
of violence, and it's correcting the
real causes of violence that will lead
to less violence in the world.
Jim
Ali Hassan
You're communicating quite effectively.I didn't know you had
that brand of socialism in you. I happen feel that you're
hitting right at the crux of the spiritual sickness in this
affluent land that that tragedy embodied. I've already
ranted in another N.G. very much along the same lines.
Apparently the killers had planned this out for a year in
advance, and were not too furtive about it in their own
homes. They had absolutely no positive human contact or
feedback, anywhere.
<snip>
Gentle May.
>
> Gail
Aquinas24
>idea that today's teens are particularly
>violent;
They don't. Until the deaths in Colorado I believe the number of student
murders in the US was about 9 during the 98-99 school year. Down from the 40s
as recently as the early 1990s. Even including the Colorado tragedy, the total
is still less than last year. This, of course, is of no comfort to the victims
or their families. One is way too many.
>But again, I
>think a big part of the trend here is
>the increase in *televised* high-speed
>chases--these chases are big
>money-makers for local TV in terms of
>ratings, so you can be sure that if one
>occurs, you're going to be seeing it.
>Everyone's got a have a news chopper,
>even if it means shutting down your
>Sacramento bureau.
>
>Jim
Television? Movies? Music and the accompanying videos? Jim is obvioulsy citing
Neptune influence. He correctly states in his response that astrologers should
not "blame" the planets as the planets cause nothing. The same is true here.
One cannot "blame" TV, radio, etc for the specific behavior of a disturbed few.
But rather: what is it about the disturbed that causes them to believe that
life is supposed to be like what they see on TV? And then, what is it about
the disturbed few that causes them to react so violently when the illusion
gives way to the reality?
>There are very real factors that
>make us a violent nation: I would cite
>among them a highly unequal distribution
>of wealth, sharp racial divisions, ready
>availability of lethal weaponry, the war
>on drugs (think Prohibition and Al
>Capone), and a long tradition of
>indiscriminate use of military force.
I would cite none of the above. If poverty caused crime the Great Depression
would have resulted in anarchy. It didn't. Crime dropped. Unequal
distribution of wealth? When and where was wealth ever "distributed" equally?
Weatlth is not "distributed" it is earned. Only government can distribute
wealth and the governments that tried to control distribution of wealth
failed-every one of them.
Sharp racial divisions? Well the division exists but the connection of that to
this type of violence has yet to be established. These killers murdered one
person of a different race. This poor kid was the only black kid in the senior
class and he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is
interesting that the media has virtually ignored the fact that one of the
murdered girls was selected for death because she admited her Christianity to
the killers. Hate is hate regardless of its direction. These kids hated
everyone who was something they were not regardless of race, color, creed, or
national origin.
Ready availibility of lethal weaponry? As of this writing, it has yet to be
established how the killers obtained the guns. Odds are they were obtained
illegally. I know that the popular point of view is that stricter and stricter
gun control will stop violent crime, but the stats don't support it and in some
cases point to the opposite effect, e.g. tighter gun control leads to more
crime (the criminals don't turn in their guns).
War on drugs =prohibition? Welllllllll not really. FIrst of all liquor was
legal-then prohibited. Not quite the same as drugs. Alcohol, tobacco, and
caffeine are our culture's drugs of choice. The government took away the
liquor but the violence was not among the drinkers. The violence occurred
amongst the gangsters. And they were fighting for a much more "nobler"
reason-money. Ahh but the Neptune influence is certainly worth investigating
here, as well.
Long tradition of the use of indiscriminate military force? Long tradition??
With the possible exceptions of the Spanish American War and the Kosovo affair
the US usually is dragged kicking and screaming into combat. It took years to
get significant numbers of US troops into Viet Nam and even then, they didn't
invade North Viet Nam just bombed it. Sound familiar?
(Every day you hear on the news what new
>things our government bombed today. Are
>kids supposed to figure out that it's
>good to bomb people that you hate in
>other countries but you must never,
>never bomb people you hate at home?)
This is an interesting point. I'm not sure there is a connection however
because our stated purpose in bombing is not the hating of Serbs but the
helping of ethnic Albanians. This of course leads one inescapably to the oft
cited never verified Viet Nam quote: "We had to destroy the village in order to
save it."
I think there is or at least ought to be a noticible difference between
legitimate warfare and killing to solve problems at home. Warfare is a
government activity; the Coloroado killings individual acts. But the point
nevertheless is interesting in that governments do send messages, by their
activities, to the general public. If we cannot have faith that the activities
of our government are just and necessary even when they are distasteful, then
our own concern for the welfare of others might suffer. Perhaps character does
matter after all.
Tom