My Question on Zapruder/NIx Alterations
Frostbiteman
In Dealey Plaza." It involves Jack White making his claim that the
Zapruder film has been altered. A lot of his stuff makes sense. His
claim that Zapruder may not have shot the film isn't really proven to me.
But he makes sense when it comes to shadows being wrong, zooming in of
frames like Z194 that do not fit base photos, and the disappearance of
"Pickupman." But there is something that I am having trouble with.
On the last page, he shows a frame of Zapruder's film next to Nix's of the
same moment What we are shown here is that there are four people watching
the assassination. A couple and their son as well as an unidentified man.
Then he shows that the Nix film has 5 people there.. the mans wife is
missing and the unidentified man now has a companion. There also appears
to be two people standing behind them that isn't seen on Zapruder at all.
I decided to check out the tape I made of the recent Discovery Channels
show on the assassination footage. It appears to match up with what Jack
is saying. Mr. White says "Nix is wrong or Zapruder is wrong: they can't
both be right."
I was wondering what you guys think of the possibility that they are
altered? I personally don't see why they would take out people that
didn't do anything but watch the motorcade. But it does appear that there
are discrepencies. What would be the explaination for them? I am
interested in your thoughts.
Andrew
Gerry Simone (Home)
film-alteration conspiracies, but that comparison is worth investigating.
"Frostbiteman" <frostb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030303181012...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Martin Shackelford
arguments, none of which stand up to close scrutiny.
Martin
Drumrolls2
>On the last page, he shows a frame of Zapruder's film next to Nix's of the
>same moment What we are shown here is that there are four people watching
>the assassination. A couple and their son as well as an unidentified man.
>Then he shows that the Nix film has 5 people there.. the mans wife is
>missing and the unidentified man now has a companion. There also appears
>to be two people standing behind them that isn't seen on Zapruder at all.
>
>I decided to check out the tape I made of the recent Discovery Channels
>show on the assassination footage. It appears to match up with what Jack
>is saying. Mr. White says "Nix is wrong or Zapruder is wrong: they can't
>both be right."
>
>
>I was wondering what you guys think of the possibility that they are
>altered? I personally don't see why they would take out people that
>didn't do anything but watch the motorcade. But it does appear that there
>are discrepencies. What would be the explaination for them? I am
>interested in your thoughts.
>
>Andrew
The two people standing "behind" the couple with the little boy, (the
Franzen's) ARE seen in the Zapruder film. They are at the extreme top of the
un enhanced frames. Of this couple, the girl dressed in a white top and black
pants, is reacting to the shooting, the girl standing in place and "jogging" so
to speak.
The Franzen's all can be sen in the Nix film. You can see Mr. Franzen's
legs, the little boy, Mrs. Franzen, and then the guy who some thought to be
holding a sign that read "JFK SOB" all are right where they show up in the Z
film.
No one is "missing" from the films. All are there in both Nix and Zapruder
films.
Jack White is in total error.
Steve
Ed Cage
There were/are F=I=V=E original copies of the Z film..
If you alter one, how do you explain it when
the other F=O=U=R DON'T
(gULp::)
MATCH YOURS?
>;~?
ED Cage______________________________________________4.1303
"Gerry Simone (Home)" <cioc...@idirect.com> wrote in message news:<v68l5ge...@corp.supernews.com>...
Frostbiteman
But where is the woman that is with the man in the Nix film in Zapruder?
In Zapruder the guy is standing alone. I'm just not seeing it.
Andrew
Ed Cage
Steve, Whatszis? Jack White in error? Cripeisters Steve!
What next will be discover? The Pope is a transvestite? Is
nothing sacred these days?
JW GOT INTO Z FILM TROUBLE LONG AGO WHEN he tried sooo hard to
make his BM illustrations fly.. Naturally the 1st thing he did
was to check out BM's position behind fence @ GK.. When they
immediately discovered the "X" could not even be seen at even
a 19" elevation Jack's creative juices began to flow..
NOW IF MM was standing in the street.. That would of course
make it possible to see the limo from BM's position..Albeit at
a nose-bleed height.. Still w me?
THEREFORE since MM's feet were not clearly visible JW took a
daring but laughable shot:"The Z film had been altered" said Jack..
As further evidence he offered this persuasive line:
"Prove me wrong."
And now we know why JW is generally accepted on both sides of the
aisle as a baffoon.
Ed Cage______________________________________________4.1921
drumr...@aol.com (Drumrolls2) wrote in message news:<20030304150432...@mb-cp.aol.com>...
Drumrolls2
>But where is the woman that is with the man in the Nix film in Zapruder?
>In Zapruder the guy is standing alone. I'm just not seeing it.
>
>Andrew
>
She is right there. Nix's angle makes it look like they are standing
VERY close together. As you can see in the Z film they were not that far
apart. The man is a little in front of Mrs. Franzen. Also, she must have
moved to her left after she disappeared from Zapruder's camera. You can
see the man moving, and her as well in the Nix film, and by this time they
are both out of Zapruders view.
Steve
Martin Shackelford
claims.
If you are talking about Brehm and the Babushka woman, their relative
positions differ in the two films due to the angles from which they were
shot.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
on comparing two images taken at different times and pointing out
differences--of course, differences would be expected, but he generally
fails to mention that the images were not taken at the same time.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Martin Shackelford
people have relied on his "expertise" on serious issues and been misled.
He is very familiar with the photographic evidence, but his background
in advertising doesn't qualify him to do forensic photoanalysis.
Martin
Ed Cage
Martin, NOT try'n to be kute here -- I can go in
next room and check but it would take 15 mins..
BUT didn't US Gov get 2, Time/LIFE 2, and Mr Z keep
one? 2+2+1=5?
Ed___________________________________________5.1157
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote in message news:<3E66F493...@concentric.net>...
Jerry Organ
>Jack has made a variety of
>such claims. His arguments
>are usually based on
>comparing two images
>taken at different times
>and pointing out
>differences--of course,
>differences would be
>expected, but he generally
>fails to mention that the
>images were not taken
>at the same time.
White rationalizes it by saying he merely sees things and asks why.
Doesn't care where the chips fall, I guess.
Very little follow-up of notices of correction from White.
Jerry
Martin Shackelford
Zapruder took his original to Kodak to be developed. Then he took the
developed film to Jamieson Lab to have copies made. They made three
copies. Two copies were given to the Secret Service (who gave one to the
FBI, from which copies were made), and the original and one copy were
retained by Zapruder. On Saturday, he showed the film to the Secret
Service and to the media, which bid on it. LIFE bought it and took the
original and the copy to their Chicago lab, where frame enlargements were
made. In New York, copies of the film were made. One copy may have been
given to Zapruder, as he was able to show it to Dan Rather on Monday.
Other copies have been rumored, but there is no documentation for them,
and lab records show only three made from the original film.
Martin
Ritchie Linton
> >Jack White is in total error.
>
> But where is the woman that is with the man in the Nix film in Zapruder?
> In Zapruder the guy is standing alone. I'm just not seeing it.
+++
Have you seen the 'scar' on the Nix film just before the fatal shot=it
obliterates Greer turning just before and we know Greer turned just
before the fatal by both of his evidence and the Zfilm=how do you
think that would have looked from the angle of Orville Nix? According
to the record Nix gave his film to the Secret Service and had a devil
of a time trying to get it back from anyone.
RJ
>
> Andrew
Martin Shackelford
assassination. It also appeared in David Wolper's 1964 documentary "Four
Days." Not sure why these myths proliferate about the films not being
available--none were suppressed by the government, if we go with
evidence instead of rumors.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
that he's on a sympathetic discussion group, he's not subjected to the
same critical scrutiny, and his errors multiply.
Martin
Ricky Tobias
>___________________________________________________
>Martin, NOT try'n to be kute here -- I can go in
>next room and check but it would take 15 mins..
>BUT didn't US Gov get 2, Time/LIFE 2, and Mr Z keep
>one? 2+2+1=5?
>
>Ed___________________________________________5.1157
>
No Ed. The history of the film is known by many but clearly not by
you.
Ricky
"Ballistic Findings in the JFK Autopsy Photos".
An early draft with some errors is posted at:
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/Frontal_shot(s)/Tobias_frontal_shots/Tobias--Ballistics_Findings.html
Problems try:
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/JFK.html
Then go to: Issues and evidence
Then go to: Frontal shot(s)
or
go to: Notices and recent additions to the site
Then find above title posted April 11, 2001.
Ed Cage
THANX Martin.. I hastily looked into it and it appears your
version below is correct.. To summarize: (Correct me if I'm
rOnG)
3 copies were made @ Jamison..
* Time/Life got 1 copy & the original.. (1+1=2)
* The SS/FBI got 1 copy each.. (1+1=2)
* It appears Mr Z DID get a copy himself but AFTER the fact.
THEREFORE there was 3 copies and 1 original..
Total: 4 versions
Right?
BTW: I also discovered NO DA Jim Garrison was able to subpoena
and "borrow" the original from which he REPORTEDLY made "other"
copies.. Had you heard that?
Ed Cage ____________________________________________ 8.2110
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote in message news:<3E681722...@concentric.net>...
Martin Shackelford
When the Z film was taken to New Orleans for the Clay Shaw trial, the
rumor is that Garrison took it out of his office safe and allowed Mark
Lane or another critic to make copies or have copies made. This put early
bootlegs in circulation, each copy of lower quality than those before it,
and soon washed-out Super8mm copies were in circulation. Meanwhile,
through his N.Y. photo lab job, Robert Groden had acquired a cast-off 35mm
copy made when LIFE had the lab make some 35mm copies. Bootlegs
originating in the 1970s with this copy were of somewhat better quality.
Today this is all academic, because anyone can acquire a great copy of the
film on video or DVD, but those bootleg were a gold mine for researchers
in the 70s.
Martin
Ritchie Linton
> He sold it to UPI, which used it in their newsreels very soon after the
> assassination. It also appeared in David Wolper's 1964 documentary "Four
> Days."
Thats true=although Nix had a devil of a time getting his film back
after he had given it into the Secret Service.Unlike the zfilm, the
Nix film was not suppressed from public viewing once Nix got it back.