Oswald's strange accent
deke
upon several times but never addressed specifically. I do think it is
significant because it hints at who Lee Harvey Oswald may really be. While
recently listening to several interviews with him, I noticed he had a very
unique accent - no Texas drawl like his brother Robert, no Cajun
"N'awlins" accent, and no Brooklynese New York accent (he spent some time
in NYC as a youngster). Instead, he sounds very much like others I've
known in the past, people that were born here but whose parents came from
Eastern European countries. He emphasizes certain consonant sounds and
sometimes drops the definite articles "the" or "a" before certain words.
This reminded me of something I read some years ago, and I wish I could
remember who wrote it, where a linguistics expert remarked that Oswald
sounded like someone whose English sounded like it was learned early on as
a second language. If this is so, then it is entirely possible, as some
have speculated, that the Dallas "Oswald" was someone of Eastern European
background who assumed the identity of the real Oswald and was
subsequently groomed for intelligence work. This would explain his ability
to "learn" Russian, an extremely difficult language for English speakers,
so quickly and fluently.
Don
Grizzlie Antagonist
> If this is so, then it is entirely possible, as some
> have speculated, that the Dallas "Oswald" was someone of Eastern European
> background who assumed the identity of the real Oswald and was
> subsequently groomed for intelligence work. This would explain his ability
> to "learn" Russian, an extremely difficult language for English speakers,
> so quickly and fluently.
>
> Don
Here's what's even more intriguing: The Dallas Oswald had the same
dental records as the "real" Oswald.
Not only that, but he had the same defect from a mastoid operation that
the "real" Oswald had undergone as a child.
That news is 25 years old, dating back to the reopening of Oswald's
grave in 1981.
jwrush
"deke" <drw...@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote in message
news:1154625113.3...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Hi Don,
Bill Stuckey and I discussed this in 1981 when I interviewed Bill.
Oswald's accent was a mix of various accents, which was a result of his
traveling.
For example, his pronunciation of "secretary" as "sekatary" was exactly
the same as Bill's. Bill had lived in Texas and New Orleans as Oswald had.
Oswald's use of the term "no one can pass on that", meaning no one can
legitimately make a judgment about that, was a Dallas-area phrase.
His pronunciation of "New Orleans" as "New Or-leenes" is common among some
New Orleans residents. There are several favorite ways different people in
the city like to pronounce the city's name. The pronunciation "N'awlins"
tends to be an old Italian-American way of pronouncing the name and it's
also used by some people in the Irish Channel area, but a lot of Italians
live in the Irish Channel area.
Oswald's pronunciation of "superfluous" as "super-flurious" (instead of
the correct pronunciation, "sa-perf-fa-luss") reveals his dyslexia and
reveals that he had only read the word in print but had never heard it
pronounced.
He wouldn't speak "Brooklynese" since he never lived in Brooklyn. He lived
near the Bronx. Different accent. And his trips to mid-town Manhattan
would have exposed him to several different accents.
Oswald's accent could not be pinned down specifically to New Orleans or
Texas because he didn't spend all his life in New Orleans or Texas. He
grew up in several places, and he was exposed to other accents while in
the Marines and when in Japan, Russia, and among the Russian-Americans in
Texas.
greg
Don, he had a hearing problem in one ear. This was noted in his NY
school records, YH records and USMC records. A mastoidectomy at age 5
apparently failed to fix the problem. This, along with his travels (as
noted by Mr Rush) may account for the accent.
That said, if your recall about what a linguistics expert said is
accurate, and he in turn was correct, the place I would start looking
for any potential "2nd" Oswald is the family of John Pic's wife.
I'm open to either scenario.
greg
deke
greg wrote:
>
> Don, he had a hearing problem in one ear. This was noted in his NY
> school records, YH records and USMC records. A mastoidectomy at age 5
> apparently failed to fix the problem. This, along with his travels (as
> noted by Mr Rush) may account for the accent.
>
> That said, if your recall about what a linguistics expert said is
> accurate, and he in turn was correct, the place I would start looking
> for any potential "2nd" Oswald is the family of John Pic's wife.
>
> I'm open to either scenario.
>
> greg
Greg-
I did find the original source concerning the linguistic study. It was
some research done by Gary Mack (who now runs the Sixth Floor Museum in
Dallas) and quoted in Jim Marrs' book "Crossfire". He said that three
language experts at Southern Methodist University in Dallas studied tape
recordings made of Oswald. They did not know the identity of the man whose
voice they heard. All agreed that the English he spoke seemed acquired
later in life - that English was not the native tongue of the man on the
tape. I'm not sure what you mean about the family of John Pic's wife, but
there is an interesting story about John Pic (Oswald's half brother)
himself. In his comments to the Warren Commission, he said that Oswald's
appearance had changed drastically after his trip to the Soviet Union. He
indicated that he was personally offended when Oswald introduced him to
someone as his "half" brother - he had never used that term before. Other
members of his family also noticed distinct changes in the post Soviet
"Oswald".
Don
steve
i think most of the recordings talked about were made after he
returned from the soviet union. which would, i think, explain a lot as far
as his accent goes. i remember when the us forces captured the american
taliban (john walker lindh?) there was a newsman there with a cameraman
who briefly questioned him as he lay on a stretcher. when the tape of it
started appearing on the news, he had a really deep accent. i remember
hearing at that time that he had been in the region for about 2 years and
it was explained that he had gone so long without speaking english that he
developed an accent. would be good to know how often oswald spoke english
while in russia. on top of all the other things stated , ear problems,
reading/learning problems, moving around a lot as a youngster etc its not
surprising that he has a hard accent to crack.
Canuck
Those who commented on this topic might be interested in reading my
article "Did Oswald Come Back?", available at Clint Bradford's site:
http://www.jfk-info.com/sitemap1.htm. One error made by Oswald while in
Russia is quite amazing, which Priscilla Johnson overlooked in her book
MARINA AND LEE. In the course of filling out his exit visa form
(according to Marina, as told to PJ), Lee listed his birthplace as being
"New Orleans, TX, USA". The document was published in the Warren volumes,
along with a State Dep't translation in which the secretary typed "sic"
next to the error, to indicate it was from the original and not a "typo".
Given that Oswald brought home extra copies, in case he made a mistake,
how could he possibly think New Orleans was in Texas? Perhaps because he
wasn't American?
There is also the whole matter of his height (5'9" or 5'11" ?), which I
discuss.
-
Peter R. Whitmey
Anthony Marsh
Please confirm for us that you have never heard of a real case of
someone impersonating another person.
Anthony Marsh
That is what is known in the field as anecdotal claptrap.
Grizzlie Antagonist
Don's theory seems to be akin to the theory expressed by Michael Eddowes
thirty years ago -- that a man born Lee Harvey Oswald defected to Russia
in 1959 and that a Russian agent came back in his place in 1962.
That's presumably when the switch occurred, and it was disproven by the
results of a physical examination of the corpse, the results of which I
have already set forth.
Even if you or Don want to argue that the switch occurred at some time
before Oswald's defection or after his return, you still have to explain
away those results, especially that which match the corpse's mastoid
defect with an operation that Oswald had as a child.
Anyway, I'm sure that you, of all people, don't believe that "the Commies
did it". That's not the game that you're hunting.
greg
> greg wrote:
>
>
>>Don, he had a hearing problem in one ear. This was noted in his NY
>>school records, YH records and USMC records. A mastoidectomy at age 5
>>apparently failed to fix the problem. This, along with his travels (as
>>noted by Mr Rush) may account for the accent.
>>
>>That said, if your recall about what a linguistics expert said is
>>accurate, and he in turn was correct, the place I would start looking
>>for any potential "2nd" Oswald is the family of John Pic's wife.
>>
>>I'm open to either scenario.
>>
>>greg
>
>
> Greg-
> I did find the original source concerning the linguistic study. It was
> some research done by Gary Mack (who now runs the Sixth Floor Museum in
> Dallas) and quoted in Jim Marrs' book "Crossfire". He said that three
> language experts at Southern Methodist University in Dallas studied tape
> recordings made of Oswald. They did not know the identity of the man whose
> voice they heard. All agreed that the English he spoke seemed acquired
> later in life - that English was not the native tongue of the man on the
> tape.
Fair enough, Don. I do wonder though, whether, if asked, these experts
might not have agreed that the accent could also have been the result of a
hearing defect at the time his language was deleloping, exacerbated by
moving from state to state, then being exposed to all manner of accents in
the Marines, followed by over 2 years in Russia?
I'm not sure what you mean about the family of John Pic's wife,
Simply that if I went searching for a "second" Oswald, I'd be seeking to
eliminate anyone from her family before I looked elsewhere. She was the
daughter of East European refugees - a group which would have been a
particular target of The Port Security Unit (PSU) at Ellis Island (which
housed the biggest immigration Center in the US). Pic was working for the
PSU at the time LHO lived in NYC. The unit was formed to rid the ports of
"subversive" elements and used pre-exisiting networks of OSI and FBI
informants to identify suspected pinkos. Pic and his wife resided in his
mother-in-law's apartment. Marguerite claimed she came to NY at Pic's
invitation. He denied this, yet coincidently, his mother-in-law left to
visit a sister, making room for Marguerite and Lee just in time for their
arrival. It is also true that Pic was given 2 weeks leave at the time
Marguerite and Lee arrived. Nothing wrong with that per se, however, at
the time, the PSU was undertaking a mammoth task, and was so stretched for
manpower, it was fast-tracking entry training.
but
> there is an interesting story about John Pic (Oswald's half brother)
> himself. In his comments to the Warren Commission, he said that Oswald's
> appearance had changed drastically after his trip to the Soviet Union. He
> indicated that he was personally offended when Oswald introduced him to
> someone as his "half" brother - he had never used that term before.
I take those comments as possibly self-serving.
Other
> members of his family also noticed distinct changes in the post Soviet
> "Oswald".
Marine life bulked him up. Even though he lived comparatively well in
USSR, he did have a poor diet whilst there, as well as a lot less
exercise. I think this may have contributed to his thinner appearance and
thining hair.
greg
Anthony Marsh
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
>>> deke wrote:
>>>> If this is so, then it is entirely possible, as some
>>>> have speculated, that the Dallas "Oswald" was someone of Eastern European
>>>> background who assumed the identity of the real Oswald and was
>>>> subsequently groomed for intelligence work. This would explain his ability
>>>> to "learn" Russian, an extremely difficult language for English speakers,
>>>> so quickly and fluently.
>>>>
>>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's what's even more intriguing: The Dallas Oswald had the same
>>> dental records as the "real" Oswald.
>>>
>>> Not only that, but he had the same defect from a mastoid operation that
>>> the "real" Oswald had undergone as a child.
>>>
>>> That news is 25 years old, dating back to the reopening of Oswald's
>>> grave in 1981.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Please confirm for us that you have never heard of a real case of
>> someone impersonating another person.
>
>
>
> Don's theory seems to be akin to the theory expressed by Michael Eddowes
> thirty years ago -- that a man born Lee Harvey Oswald defected to Russia
> in 1959 and that a Russian agent came back in his place in 1962.
>
I don't care about that wacky theory. I just want you to confirm that
you think it is impossible for someone to impersonate someone else.
Obviously Hoover was crazy when he suggested such a thing is possible,
right? And you've never heard of a case where that has happened, right?
> That's presumably when the switch occurred, and it was disproven by the
> results of a physical examination of the corpse, the results of which I
> have already set forth.
>
So?
> Even if you or Don want to argue that the switch occurred at some time
> before Oswald's defection or after his return, you still have to explain
> away those results, especially that which match the corpse's mastoid
> defect with an operation that Oswald had as a child.
>
I don't speak for Don. Answer my questions or admit that you don't know
what the Hell you are talking about.
> Anyway, I'm sure that you, of all people, don't believe that "the Commies
> did it". That's not the game that you're hunting.
>
>
I said nothing about the Russians sending back a fake Oswald. Maybe
someone else believes that theory, not I.
Canuck
greg wrote:
> deke wrote:
> > greg wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Don, he had a hearing problem in one ear. This was noted in his NY
> >>school records, YH records and USMC records. A mastoidectomy at age 5
> >>apparently failed to fix the problem. This, along with his travels (as
> >>noted by Mr Rush) may account for the accent.
I had the same surgery as Oswald when I was nine years old (in 1955,
performed in Pensacola, FL; my dad was sent down to Elgin Air Force Base
by AVRO in Toronto for six months, and I attended school in Ft. Walton
Beach, at as segregated school, which I later realized was the case). I
had lost 50% of my hearing in my right ear, but I don't believe it had any
affect on my way of speaking, although I was in the process of gradually
losing my English accent, having moved to Canada at age six.
Over the years I have tried unsucessfully to get some feedback on Lee's
accent, and his height from Robert Oswald to no avail. I once spoke to
him in Wichita Falls, TX on the phone (he had a listed number at the time
in the early 1990s) and he implied that his phone might be tapped. I have
since tried writing to him a few times but never got a reply.
- Peter R. Whitmey
greg
> greg wrote:
>
>>deke wrote:
>>
>>>greg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Don, he had a hearing problem in one ear. This was noted in his NY
>>>>school records, YH records and USMC records. A mastoidectomy at age 5
>>>>apparently failed to fix the problem. This, along with his travels (as
>>>>noted by Mr Rush) may account for the accent.
>
>
> I had the same surgery as Oswald when I was nine years old (in 1955,
> performed in Pensacola,
That's not relevant to what I said, Peter. Presumably by age 9 you had
already developed language skills. Oswald had his operation at 5, but
likely suffered the problem for a few years up to that without it being
noticed.
This explains how hearing problems can effect speech:
http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/disorders/effects.htm
Specific Effects
Vocabulary
* Vocabulary develops more slowly in children who have hearing loss.
* Children with hearing loss learn concrete words like cat, jump,
five, and red more easily than abstract words like before, after, equal
to, and jealous. They also have difficulty with function words like the,
an, are, and a.
* The gap between the vocabulary of children with normal hearing
and those with hearing loss widens with age. Children with hearing loss
do not catch up without intervention.
* Children with hearing loss have difficulty understanding words
with multiple meanings. For example, the word bank can mean the edge of
a stream or a place where we put money.
Sentence Structure
* Children with hearing loss comprehend and produce shorter and
simpler sentences than children with normal hearing.
* Children with hearing loss often have difficulty understanding
and writing complex sentences, such as those with relative clauses ("The
teacher whom I have for math was sick today.") or passive voice ("The
ball was thrown by Mary.")
* Children with hearing loss often cannot hear word endings such as
-s or -ed. This leads to misunderstandings and misuse of verb tense,
pluralization, nonagreement of subject and verb, and possessives.
Speaking
* Children with hearing loss often cannot hear quiet speech sounds
such as "s," "sh," "f," "t," and "k" and therefore do not include them
in their speech. Thus, speech may be difficult to understand.
* Children with hearing loss may not hear their own voices when
they speak. They may speak too loudly or not loud enough. They may have
a speaking pitch that is too high. They may sound like they are mumbling
because of poor stress, poor inflection, or poor rate of speaking.
FL; my dad was sent down to Elgin Air Force Base
> by AVRO in Toronto for six months, and I attended school in Ft. Walton
> Beach, at as segregated school, which I later realized was the case). I
> had lost 50% of my hearing in my right ear, but I don't believe it had any
> affect on my way of speaking, although I was in the process of gradually
> losing my English accent, having moved to Canada at age six.
>
> Over the years I have tried unsucessfully to get some feedback on Lee's
> accent, and his height from Robert Oswald to no avail. I once spoke to
> him in Wichita Falls, TX on the phone (he had a listed number at the time
> in the early 1990s) and he implied that his phone might be tapped. I have
> since tried writing to him a few times but never got a reply.
You've been chasing the wrong brother.
greg
Grizzlie Antagonist
I never said so. I explained why the man buried in Oswald's grave is
the same individual as the man born Lee Harvey Oswald in 1939.
The issue of whether it is "possible" to impersonate someone was your
changing the subject matter altogether.
> Obviously Hoover was crazy when he suggested such a thing is possible,
> right?
I though that Hoover WAS crazy. And I also thought that Hoover was
simply conveying the impressions of Oswald's mother (who was a head
case), rather than actually stating his own concern that LHO was being
"impersonated".
> And you've never heard of a case where that has happened, right?
> > That's presumably when the switch occurred, and it was disproven by the
> > results of a physical examination of the corpse, the results of which I
> > have already set forth.
> >
>
> So?
So if you want to argue with me, address what I have said, instead of
manufacturing a strawman.
> > Even if you or Don want to argue that the switch occurred at some time
> > before Oswald's defection or after his return, you still have to explain
> > away those results, especially that which match the corpse's mastoid
> > defect with an operation that Oswald had as a child.
> >
>
> I don't speak for Don. Answer my questions or admit that you don't know
> what the Hell you are talking about.
Answer what questions? That it is possible to impersonate someone?
Yes, I've seen a thousand different impressions of Elvis. So?
guybann...@aol.com
> He wouldn't speak "Brooklynese" since he never lived in Brooklyn. He lived
> near the Bronx. Different accent.
He didn't live "near" the Bronx, he lived IN da Bronx.
guybann...@aol.com
> There is also the whole matter of his height (5'9" or 5'11" ?), which I
> discuss.
> -
> Peter R. Whitmey
I'm admittedly agnostic although intrigued regarding the issue of an
Oswald imposter perhaps having returned from the USSR (is that part of
the premise of the new book "Harvey and Lee"?)
What do folks here make of the exhumation coroner's notably emphatic
-- and, I thought, rather too ostentatious and dramatic -- claim to the
effect that,
"There's absolutely no doubt -- and I mean NO doubt --
that the body we exhumed is that of Lee Harvey Oswald"?
John McAdams
<guybann...@aol.com> wrote:
I would interpret that to mean that there is no doubt that the body
was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
Regardless of why I asked the question (to test how much you know about
the subject), you still can not answer my question.
>
>> Obviously Hoover was crazy when he suggested such a thing is possible,
>> right?
>
>
>
> I though that Hoover WAS crazy. And I also thought that Hoover was
> simply conveying the impressions of Oswald's mother (who was a head
> case), rather than actually stating his own concern that LHO was being
> "impersonated".
>
Maybe Hoover was crazy. Oswald's mother did not hint that the KGB was
using her son's passport to send back an impostor. Hoover's comments
about impersonation were for internal circulation, not for Oswald's mother.
>
>> And you've never heard of a case where that has happened, right?
>
>>> That's presumably when the switch occurred, and it was disproven by the
>>> results of a physical examination of the corpse, the results of which I
>>> have already set forth.
>>>
>> So?
>
>
>
> So if you want to argue with me, address what I have said, instead of
> manufacturing a strawman.
>
I did not argue with your point. I just agreed with it. And then what?
No strawman involved in simply wanting to know how much you know about
the subject of impersonation.
>
>>> Even if you or Don want to argue that the switch occurred at some time
>>> before Oswald's defection or after his return, you still have to explain
>>> away those results, especially that which match the corpse's mastoid
>>> defect with an operation that Oswald had as a child.
>>>
>> I don't speak for Don. Answer my questions or admit that you don't know
>> what the Hell you are talking about.
>
>
>
> Answer what questions? That it is possible to impersonate someone?
> Yes, I've seen a thousand different impressions of Elvis. So?
>
Not the same thing.
Grizzlie Antagonist
If you are simply asking in the generic whether it is impossible to
impersonate someone, the answer is that I know for a fact that it is.
Among my other ports of stop, I was a title insurance claims attorney for
a number of years. Forgeries or impersonations for the purpose of
obtaining control of the equity in real estate were commonplace,
especially in a large diverse area such as Los Angeles, California.
I imagine that impersonations could be performed in other contexts as well
-- though they would be less likely to be successful when the "dupe" is
someone who knew the person being impersonated -- which was not the case
in any of the title insurance claims that I handled.
Grizzlie Antagonist
If you are simply asking in the generic whether it is possible to
Grizzlie Antagonist
The first of the telegrams arrived shortly after noon, and Jeeves brought
it in with the before-luncheon snifter. It was from my Aunt Dahlia,
operating from Market Snodsbury, a small town of sorts a mile or two along
the main road as you leave her country seat.
It ran as follows:
_Come at once. Travers._
And when I say it puzzled me like the dickens, I am understating it; if
anything. As mysterious a communication, I considered, as was everflashed
over the wires. I studied it in a profound reverie for the best part of
two dry Martinis and a dividend. I read it backwards. I read it forwards.
As a matter of fact, I have a sort of recollection of even smelling it.
But it still baffled me.
...
Before sitting down to the well-cooked, therefore, I sent this reply:
_Perplexed. Explain. Bertie._
To this I received an answer during the after-luncheon sleep:
_What on earth is there to be perplexed about, ass? Come at once.
Travers._
Three cigarettes and a couple of turns about the room, and I had my
response ready:
_How do you mean come at once? Regards. Bertie._
I append the comeback:
_I mean come at once, you maddening half-wit. What did you think I meant?
Come at once or expect an aunt's curse first post tomorrow. Love.
Travers._
I then dispatched the following message, wishing to get everything
quite clear:
_When you say "Come" do you mean "Come to Brinkley Court"? And when you
say "At once" do you mean "At once"? Fogged. At a loss. All the best.
Bertie._
I sent this one off on my way to the Drones, where I spent a restful
afternoon throwing cards into a top-hat with some of the better
element.
Returning in the evening hush, I found the answer waiting for me:
_Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It doesn't matter whether you
understand or not. You just come at once, as I tell you, and for heaven's
sake stop this back-chat. Do you think I am made of money that I can
afford to send you telegrams every ten minutes. Stop being a fathead and
come immediately. Love. Travers._
It was at this point that I felt the need of getting a second opinion.
I pressed the bell.
"Jeeves," I said, "a V-shaped rumminess has manifested itself from the
direction of Worcestershire. Read these," I said, handing him the
papers in the case.
He scanned them.
"What do you make of it, Jeeves?"
"I think Mrs. Travers wishes you to come at once, sir."
"You gather that too, do you?"
"Yes, sir."
"I put the same construction on the thing."
- "Right Ho, Jeeves," by P.G. Wodehouse
guybann...@aol.com
>
> > I'm admittedly agnostic although intrigued regarding the issue of an
> >Oswald imposter perhaps having returned from the USSR (is that part of
> >the premise of the new book "Harvey and Lee"?)
> >
> > What do folks here make of the exhumation coroner's notably emphatic
> >-- and, I thought, rather too ostentatious and dramatic -- claim to the
> >effect that,
> >
> > "There's absolutely no doubt -- and I mean NO doubt --
> > that the body we exhumed is that of Lee Harvey Oswald"?
> >
John McAdams replied:
>
> I would interpret that to mean that there is no doubt that the body
> was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Ooooh look: Johnny made a funny!
Good one, John.
blued...@gmail.com
she's batshit crazy. What was her thought on "her son".
claviger
People in New Orleans have their own accent, somewhat
different from the rest of Louisiana.
It is a blend of Spanish, French, Italian, Cajun, and Creole.
LHO spent time in NYC and probably picked up some
words from there. Then he lived in Ft Worth and later
in Dallas. So he used words and accents from all those
regional dialects.
Ace Kefford
the style and approach of Oswald's way of talking.
Anthony Marsh
Anthony Marsh
> A mother knows her son more than anyone. Even if people think, or know
> she's batshit crazy. What was her thought on "her son".
>
CIA, which killed Kennedy for the good of the country. How kooky is that?
claviger
Anthony Marsh
go through for that role reminded me of Robert De Niro in Raging Bull.
What he had to do to prepare for that part, to become the character.
He was spectacular in Leon the Professional, even though it was a minor
tole.He can change accents on a dime.