Carolyn Walther said 4th or 5th floor — and meant
yeuhd
side of Houston Street about fifty or sixty feet south of the south
curb of Elm Street, told the FBI that she saw a man with a rifle on
the "fourth or fifth floor in the southeast corner window" of the TSBD
building before the motorcade came by (24 H 522).
She said she first saw the man after an ambulance left Houston Street
with someone who had an epileptic seizure. According to the Dallas
police radio transmissions, the ambulance was called at 12:18 p.m.,
and was en route to Parkland Hospital at 12:25 p.m.:
http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/dpd01-00.pdf
(See lines 36, 55, and 134; "signal 16" is an injured person call, non-
vehicular.)
The FBI report says, "This would be the most easterly window of either
the fourth or fifth floors, of the windows on the south side of the
building, which faces toward Elm Street. This man had the window open
and was standing up leaning out the window with both his hands
extended outside the window ledge. In his hands, this man was holding
a rifle with the barrel pointed downward, and the man was looking
south on Houston Street. The man was wearing a white shirt and had
blond or light brown hair.… Her impression was that the gun was a
machine gun.… In the same window, to the left of this man, she could
see a portion of another man standing by the side of this man with a
rifle. This other man was standing erect, and his head was above the
opened portion of the window. As the window was very dirty, she could
not see the head of this second man. She is positive this window was
not as high as the sixth floor." Almost immediately after noticing
this man with the rifle, Mrs. Walther heard someone shout that the
motorcade was coming.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0270b.htm
In a thread about Carolyn Walther started by Sean Murphy last year, he
came to to the rescue of Mrs. Walther's credibility by suggesting that
Mrs. Walther merely counted the floors incorrectly, omitting the first
floor; that she really meant to say the fifth or six floors. "No
reason why she cannot be referring to the very top floor as the
'sixth'. None at all."
When I scoffed at that explanation, he replied, "You can be as
retrospectively wise as you please about how many floors there were in
the TSBD, the fact remains that many witnesses DID NOT count the
bottom floor." He added confidently, "I'm afraid you're stuck with the
men Carolyn Walther saw - and with the inconvenient truth that their
presence together at that window demolishes the Lone Nut theory all by
itself.
"Yes, it's really that simple."
And, once again, "Carolyn Walther says 'fourth or fifth floors' but
she is actually referring to the 5th or 6th floor. No problem."
When I wrote, "But we know from photos, the Hughes film, and
witnesses, that the fourth floor window [in the southeast corner] was
closed, and known TSBD employees were in the fifth floor windows,"
Sean Murphy replied, "Exactly, it must have been the sixth floor."
Carolyn Walther was interviewed by Dallas reporter Eddie Barker for a
CBS News documentary about the Warren Report broadcast in 1967:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RojgrY9rKYM
(See at 7:48)
Mr. BAKER. About what floor would you say these two men were on that
you saw in the window?
Mrs. WALTHER. The first statement that I made, I said the man was on
the fourth or the fifth floor, and I still feel the same way. He was
just about, in a window that was just about even with the top of that
tree.
Photo of the Texas School Book Depository Building, from the corner of
Main and Houston streets:
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/07/Photo_wcd81-1_0095.jpg
Photo of the TSBD building from about where Mrs. Walther was standing
on the east side of Houston Street:
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/2c/Photo_wcd81-1_0097.jpg
Note the height of the tree in both photos.
Occupants of the windows on the south side of the 5th and 4th floors
of the TSBD at the time of the motorcade:
5th floor:
Three black employees of the TSBD, James Jarman, Billy Rae Williams,
and Harold Norman, in that order, were watching from the 6th and 7th
of the seven sets of double windows.
4th floor:
Double windows 3 through 7 on the fourth floor were the office of
Scott Foresman & Co. Double windows 1 and 2 were the stock and
supplies room of Scott Foresman:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=37
In the Scott Foresman office were employees Vickie Adams, Sandra
Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy Garner. Adams was standing in double
window 5. Standing by her were Styles and Dorman. Garner was at her
desk by the window.
Adams: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0331b.htm
Dorman: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0337b.htm
Garner: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0339b.htm
Styles: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0353b.htm
In the stock and supplies room (double windows 1 and 2) were employees
Mary Hollies and Bettie Foster:
Foster: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0339a.htm
Hollies: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0341b.htm
Photo of the upper stories of the TSBD building taken by Tom Dillard
seconds after the shots were fired:
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d0/Photo_hsca_ex_153.jpg
Note that on the 4th floor, double windows 6 and 7 are closed, as are
double windows 3 and 4 and the right half of double window 5.
Therefore, all of the windows on the south face of the 4th and 5th
floors of the were witnessed and accounted for by employees on those
floors before and during the motorcade.
Going back to the open window on the right half of double window 5, on
the 4th floor, Elsie Dorman said she was behind that window with her
husband's camera. The "Dorman film" she took is available for viewing
online:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxdJnKQzl-Y
(Dorman was unfamiliar with the camera, aiming it too high as she
watched with her eyes looking directly at the motorcade below instead
of through the viewfinder.)
To be charitable to Mrs. Walthers, who looks sincere in that 1967
interview, it's possible that she was myopic enough to mistake Elsie
Dorman holding the movie camera and waiting for the motorcade, for a
man with a gun, and that she misremembered the 5th double window as
the 7th double window. But that's stretching it.
"I thought the man had light hair or brown, and was wearing a white
shirt, but I explained to the FBI agent that I wasn't sure about
that…"
"… the rifle was different from any she had ever seen."
claviger
>
> In a thread about Carolyn Walther started by Sean Murphy last year, he
> came to to the rescue of Mrs. Walther's credibility by suggesting that
> Mrs. Walther merely counted the floors incorrectly, omitting the first
> floor; that she really meant to say the fifth or six floors. "No
> reason why she cannot be referring to the very top floor as the
> 'sixth'. None at all."
>
>
> In the Scott Foresman office were employees Vickie Adams, Sandra
> Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy Garner. Adams was standing in double
> window 5. Standing by her were Styles and Dorman. Garner was at her
> desk by the window.
>
>
> Dorman:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_03...
>
> Garner:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_03...
>
> Styles:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_03...
>
> In the stock and supplies room (double windows 1 and 2) were employees
> Mary Hollies and Bettie Foster:
>
>
> Hollies:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_03...
Excellent research.
yeuhd
John McAdams
wrote:
>On Mar 8, 6:17=A0pm, yeuhd <needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dealey Plaza witness Carolyn Walther, who was standing on the east
>> side of Houston Street about fifty or sixty feet south of the south
>> curb of Elm Street, told the FBI that she saw a man with a rifle on
>> the "fourth or fifth floor in the southeast corner window" of the TSBD
>> building before the motorcade came by (24 H 522).
>>
>> She said she first saw the man after an ambulance left Houston Street
>> with someone who had an epileptic seizure. According to the Dallas
>> police radio transmissions, the ambulance was called at 12:18 p.m.,
>> and was en route to Parkland Hospital at 12:25 p.m.:
>>
>> http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/dpd01-00.pdf
>> (See lines 36, 55, and 134; "signal 16" is an injured person call, non-
>> vehicular.)
>>
>> The FBI report says, "This would be the most easterly window of either
>> the fourth or fifth floors, of the windows on the south side of the
>> building, which faces toward Elm Street. This man had the window open
>> and was standing up leaning out the window with both his hands
>> extended outside the window ledge. In his hands, this man was holding
>> a rifle with the barrel pointed downward, and the man was looking
>> south on Houston Street. The man was wearing a white shirt and had
>> blond or light brown hair.=85 Her impression was that the gun was a
>> machine gun.=85 In the same window, to the left of this man, she could
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DRojgrY9rKYM
>> (See at 7:48)
>>
>> Mr. BAKER. About what floor would you say these two men were on that
>> you saw in the window?
>>
>> Mrs. WALTHER. The first statement that I made, I said the man was on
>> the fourth or the fifth floor, and I still feel the same way. He was
>> just about, in a window that was just about even with the top of that
>> tree.
>>
>> Photo of the Texas School Book Depository Building, from the corner of
>> Main and Houston streets:
>>
>> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/07/Photo_wcd81-1_0095.jpg
>>
>> Photo of the TSBD building from about where Mrs. Walther was standing
>> on the east side of Houston Street:
>>
>> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/2c/Photo_wcd81-1_0097.jpg
>>
>> Note the height of the tree in both photos.
>>
>> Occupants of the windows on the south side of the 5th and 4th floors
>> of the TSBD at the time of the motorcade:
>>
>> 5th floor:
>> Three black employees of the TSBD, James Jarman, Billy Rae Williams,
>> and Harold Norman, in that order, were watching from the 6th and 7th
>> of the seven sets of double windows.
>>
>> 4th floor:
>> Double windows 3 through 7 on the fourth floor were the office of
>> Scott Foresman & Co. Double windows 1 and 2 were the stock and
>> supplies room of Scott Foresman:
>>
>> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=3D108..=
>.
>>
>> In the Scott Foresman office were employees Vickie Adams, Sandra
>> Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy Garner. Adams was standing in double
>> window 5. Standing by her were Styles and Dorman. Garner was at her
>> desk by the window.
>>
>> Adams:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_=
>03...
>>
>> Dorman:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22=
>_03...
>>
>> Garner:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22=
>_03...
>>
>> Styles:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22=
>_03...
>>
>> In the stock and supplies room (double windows 1 and 2) were employees
>> Mary Hollies and Bettie Foster:
>>
>> Foster:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22=
>_03...
>>
>> Hollies:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol2=
>2_03...
>>
>> Photo of the upper stories of the TSBD building taken by Tom Dillard
>> seconds after the shots were fired:
>>
>> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d0/Photo_hsca_ex_153.jpg
>>
>> Note that on the 4th floor, double windows 6 and 7 are closed, as are
>> double windows 3 and 4 and the right half of double window 5.
>>
>> Therefore, all of the windows on the south face of the 4th and 5th
>> floors of the were witnessed and accounted for by employees on those
>> floors before and during the motorcade.
>>
>> Going back to the open window on the right half of double window 5, on
>> the 4th floor, Elsie Dorman said she was behind that window with her
>> husband's camera. The "Dorman film" she took is available for viewing
>> online:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DnxdJnKQzl-Y
>> (Dorman was unfamiliar with the camera, aiming it too high as she
>> watched with her eyes looking directly at the motorcade below instead
>> of through the viewfinder.)
>>
>> To be charitable to Mrs. Walthers, who looks sincere in that 1967
>> interview, it's possible that she was myopic enough to mistake Elsie
>> Dorman holding the movie camera and waiting for the motorcade, for a
>> man with a gun, and that she misremembered the 5th double window as
>> the 7th double window. But that's stretching it.
>>
>> "I thought the man had light hair or brown, and was wearing a white
>> shirt, but I explained to the FBI agent that I wasn't sure about
>> that=85"
>>
>> =A0"=85 the rifle was different from any she had ever seen."
>
>Excellent research.
>
OK, this was sent with some kind of encoding that put garbage
characters in and truncated the line after "me" [meant].
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
yeuhd
the corrected subject line automatically reverts to the old subject
line?
Anthony Marsh
Sometimes people will compose a message in Word or somesuch, then cut
and paste it into a newsgroup reply. Sometimes you can even tell which
program was used by the formatting codes and hard returns.
Sean Murphy
> Main and Houston streets:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/07/Photo_wcd81-1_0095.jpg
>
> Photo of the TSBD building from about where Mrs. Walther was standing
> on the east side of Houston Street:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/2c/Photo_wcd81-1_0097.jpg
>
> Note the height of the tree in both photos.
How can we note the height of the tree in the second photo? It's
cropped.
Sean
Hank Sienzant
> Dealey Plaza witness Carolyn Walther, who was standing on the east
> side of Houston Street about fifty or sixty feet south of the south
> curb of Elm Street, told the FBI that she saw a man with a rifle on
> the "fourth or fifth floor in the southeast corner window" of the TSBD
> building before the motorcade came by (24 H 522).
>
> She said she first saw the man after an ambulance left Houston Street
> with someone who had an epileptic seizure. According to the Dallas
> police radio transmissions, the ambulance was called at 12:18 p.m.,
> and was en route to Parkland Hospital at 12:25 p.m.:
>
> http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/dpd01-00.pdf
> (See lines 36, 55, and 134; "signal 16" is an injured person call, non-
> vehicular.)
>
> The FBI report says, "This would be the most easterly window of either
> the fourth or fifth floors, of the windows on the south side of the
> building, which faces toward Elm Street. This man had the window open
> and was standing up leaning out the window with both his hands
> extended outside the window ledge. In his hands, this man was holding
> a rifle with the barrel pointed downward, and the man was looking
> south on Houston Street. The man was wearing a white shirt and had
> machine gun.=85 In the same window, to the left of this man, she could
> see a portion of another man standing by the side of this man with a
> rifle. This other man was standing erect, and his head was above the
> opened portion of the window. As the window was very dirty, she could
> not see the head of this second man. She is positive this window was
> not as high as the sixth floor." Almost immediately after noticing
> this man with the rifle, Mrs. Walther heard someone shout that the
> motorcade was coming.
>
>
> In a thread about Carolyn Walther started by Sean Murphy last year, he
> came to to the rescue of Mrs. Walther's credibility by suggesting that
> Mrs. Walther merely counted the floors incorrectly, omitting the first
> floor; that she really meant to say the fifth or six floors. "No
> reason why she cannot be referring to the very top floor as the
> 'sixth'. None at all."
>
>
> When I scoffed at that explanation, he replied, "You can be as
> retrospectively wise as you please about how many floors there were in
> the TSBD, the fact remains that many witnesses DID NOT count the
> bottom floor." He added confidently, "I'm afraid you're stuck with the
> men Carolyn Walther saw - and with the inconvenient truth that their
> presence together at that window demolishes the Lone Nut theory all by
> itself.
> "Yes, it's really that simple."
>
> And, once again, "Carolyn Walther says 'fourth or fifth floors' but
> she is actually referring to the 5th or 6th floor. No problem."
>
> When I wrote, "But we know from photos, the Hughes film, and
> witnesses, that the fourth floor window [in the southeast corner] was
> closed, and known TSBD employees were in the fifth floor windows,"
> Sean Murphy replied, "Exactly, it must have been the sixth floor."
>
> Carolyn Walther was interviewed by Dallas reporter Eddie Barker for a
> CBS News documentary about the Warren Report broadcast in 1967:
>
> (See at 7:48)
>
> Mr. BAKER. About what floor would you say these two men were on that
> you saw in the window?
>
> Mrs. WALTHER. The first statement that I made, I said the man was on
> the fourth or the fifth floor, and I still feel the same way. He was
> just about, in a window that was just about even with the top of that
> tree.
>
> Photo of the Texas School Book Depository Building, from the corner of
> Main and Houston streets:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/07/Photo_wcd81-1_0095.jpg
>
> Photo of the TSBD building from about where Mrs. Walther was standing
> on the east side of Houston Street:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/2c/Photo_wcd81-1_0097.jpg
>
> Note the height of the tree in both photos.
>
> Occupants of the windows on the south side of the 5th and 4th floors
> of the TSBD at the time of the motorcade:
>
> 5th floor:
> Three black employees of the TSBD, James Jarman, Billy Rae Williams,
> and Harold Norman, in that order, were watching from the 6th and 7th
> of the seven sets of double windows.
>
> 4th floor:
> Double windows 3 through 7 on the fourth floor were the office of
> Scott Foresman & Co. Double windows 1 and 2 were the stock and
> supplies room of Scott Foresman:
>
.
>
> In the Scott Foresman office were employees Vickie Adams, Sandra
> Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy Garner. Adams was standing in double
> window 5. Standing by her were Styles and Dorman. Garner was at her
> desk by the window.
>
03...
>
> Dorman:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22=
_03...
>
> Garner:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22=
_03...
>
> Styles:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22=
_03...
>
> Mary Hollies and Bettie Foster:
>
_03...
>
> Hollies:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol2=
2_03...
>
> seconds after the shots were fired:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d0/Photo_hsca_ex_153.jpg
>
> Note that on the 4th floor, double windows 6 and 7 are closed, as are
> double windows 3 and 4 and the right half of double window 5.
>
> Therefore, all of the windows on the south face of the 4th and 5th
> floors of the were witnessed and accounted for by employees on those
> floors before and during the motorcade.
>
> Going back to the open window on the right half of double window 5, on
> the 4th floor, Elsie Dorman said she was behind that window with her
> husband's camera. The "Dorman film" she took is available for viewing
> online:
>
> (Dorman was unfamiliar with the camera, aiming it too high as she
> watched with her eyes looking directly at the motorcade below instead
> of through the viewfinder.)
>
> To be charitable to Mrs. Walthers, who looks sincere in that 1967
> interview, it's possible that she was myopic enough to mistake Elsie
> Dorman holding the movie camera and waiting for the motorcade, for a
> man with a gun, and that she misremembered the 5th double window as
> the 7th double window. But that's stretching it.
>
> "I thought the man had light hair or brown, and was wearing a white
> shirt, but I explained to the FBI agent that I wasn't sure about
>
> =A0"=85 the rifle was different from any she had ever seen."
It really is simple. Walther saw a man with a rifle in the sixth floor
SE corner window.
What she saw of the second man she described thusly - but curiously,
you do not quote what I deem the most important part of her
description:
As you note, her FBI report says, "This would be the most easterly
window of either the fourth or fifth floors, of the windows on the
south side of the building, which faces toward Elm Street. This man
had the window open and was standing up leaning out the window with
both his hands extended outside the window ledge. In his hands, this
man was holding a rifle with the barrel pointed downward, and the man
was looking south on Houston Street. The man was wearing a white shirt
and had blond or light brown hair.=85 Her impression was that the gun
was a machine gun.=85 In the same window, to the left of this man, she
could see a portion of another man standing by the side of this man
with a rifle. This other man was standing erect, and his head was
above the opened portion of the window. As the window was very dirty,
she could not see the head of this second man. She is positive this
window was not as high as the sixth floor."
However, there is more, and I believe this portion is key:
It goes on in the next sentence to read: "This second man was
apparently wearing a brown suit coat, and the only thing she could see
was the right shoulder of the man, from about the waist to the
shoulders."
Okay, I think we have all the info we need to put this together in a
logical coherent fashion. Walther said 4th or 5th floor for the man
with the rilfe, but this was a common mistake, as the first floor had
a facade that concealed the
windows from the street, and anyone counting up by the visible windows
would count the second floor as the first, and so on, counting the
sixth floor as the fifth. This is apparently what Walther did.
Now, we know Oswald's rifle was found on the sixth floor, and his
prints were found on boxes in that corner. We also know witnesses
described the gunman in terms fitting Oswald. We also know that there
were brown boxes up in that window off to Oswald's right - or left of
the gunman from Walther's vantage point on the street.
So what did Walther see? She saw a man with a rifle - Oswald - and she
saw something brown which she thought was a portion of the right side
of a man from his shoulders to his waist. She thought it was a man
wearing a brown suit coat.
What didn't she describe seeing? A head, arms or any movement by this
"man" (the head is specifically excluded, the other two aren't
mentioned).
So was this a second man in the window? Nope. It was the brown boxes
that to her looked like a portion of a man wearing a brown suitcoat
from the shoulders to the waist.
So what did Walther see? Oswald and the boxes known to be in the
window and visible from the street - boxes which she mistaken
interpreted as a portion of a man.
Hank Sienzant
yeuhd
> Okay, I think we have all the info we need to put this together in a
> logical coherent fashion. Walther said 4th or 5th floor for the man
> with the rilfe, but this was a common mistake, as the first floor had
> a facade that concealed the
>
> windows from the street, and anyone counting up by the visible windows
> would count the second floor as the first, and so on, counting the
> sixth floor as the fifth. This is apparently what Walther did.
Carolyn Walther was not a stranger to Dealey Plaza or the Texas School
Book Depository Building. She worked right across the street from it,
in the Dal-Tex Building, and was still working there in 1967. She had
more than three years after the assassination to note where the sixth
floor of the TSBD was — and where it was not — and to reconsider what
she told the FBI.
Mrs. Walther was interviewed by Dallas reporter Eddie Barker for a CBS
News documentary about the Warren Report broadcast in June 1967. She
not only referenced the window by floor number(s), she also referenced
it by another landmark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RojgrY9rKYM
(See at 7:48)
Mr. BARKER. About what floor would you say these two men were on that
you saw in the window?
Mrs. WALTHER. The first statement that I made, I said the man was on
the fourth or the fifth floor, and I still feel the same way. He was
just about, IN A WINDOW THAT WAS JUST ABOUT EVEN WITH THE TOP OF THAT
TREE.
Photo of the Texas School Book Depository Building circa December
1963, from the corner of Main and Houston streets:
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/07/Photo_wcd81-1_0095.jpg
Photo of the TSBD building circa December 1963, from about where Mrs.
Walther was standing on the east side of Houston Street:
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/2c/Photo_wcd81-1_0097.jpg
Photo of the TSBD building in 1969:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Dealey_Plaza_%281969%29.jpg
Note the height of the tree.
Do you really think Oswald was brazen enough, or stupid enough, to be
"leaning out the window with both his hands extended outside the
window ledge" and holding in those hands "a rifle with the barrel
pointed downward" in the minutes before the motorcade arrived?
Another piece of evidence that Mrs. Walther knew what floors she was
talking about: In her FBI interview of January 1964, she said that
before the spectator had a seizure and an ambulance came, she "noticed
a man wearing a brown suit and a dark red shirt leaning out a window
on the third floor, somewhere about the middle of the third floor." We
know from the affidavits of employees who were inside the building
watching out the south windows on floors 2 through 4, that the only
man on floors 2 through 4 was Steven F. "Dutch" Wilson, who watched
the motorcade from the Allyn & Bacon office on the 3rd floor. True,
the window he was watching from was not open, but its venetian blinds
were open whereas the windows on either side had their venetian blinds
closed. He can be seen on the 3rd floor, wearing a dark suit behind
the 6th double window, in the photo Tom Dillard took of the south face
of the TSBD building seconds after the assassination.
His affidavit:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0357b.htm
(The only other people watching the motorcade on the 3rd floor at the
time – Sandra Sue Ellison and Edna Case — were in the Macmillan & Co.
office looking out a window on the west face of the building.)
Sean Murphy
>
> Photo of the Texas School Book Depository Building circa December
> 1963, from the corner of Main and Houston streets:http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/07/Photo_wcd81-1_0095.jpg
>
> Photo of the TSBD building circa December 1963, from about where Mrs.
> Walther was standing on the east side of Houston Street:http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/2c/Photo_wcd81-1_0097.jpg
>
> Photo of the TSBD building in 1969:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Dealey_Plaza_%2819...
>
> Note the height of the tree.
Why are you still relying on a cropped photo from "about where Mrs.
Walther was standing"?
Tree height relative to TSBD floor varies dramatically according to
the spectator's location.
***
>
> Do you really think Oswald was brazen enough, or stupid enough, to be
> "leaning out the window with both his hands extended outside the
> window ledge" and holding in those hands "a rifle with the barrel
> pointed downward" in the minutes before the motorcade arrived?
Minutes? Wrong timeframe.
***
> Another piece of evidence that Mrs. Walther knew what floors she was
> talking about: In her FBI interview of January 1964, she said that
> before the spectator had a seizure and an ambulance came, she "noticed
> a man wearing a brown suit and a dark red shirt leaning out a window
> on the third floor, somewhere about the middle of the third floor." We
> know from the affidavits of employees who were inside the building
> watching out the south windows on floors 2 through 4, that the only
> man on floors 2 through 4 was Steven F. "Dutch" Wilson, who watched
> the motorcade from the Allyn & Bacon office on the 3rd floor. True,
> the window he was watching from was not open, but its venetian blinds
> were open whereas the windows on either side had their venetian blinds
> closed. He can be seen on the 3rd floor, wearing a dark suit behind
> the 6th double window, in the photo Tom Dillard took of the south face
> of the TSBD building seconds after the assassination.
(grin)
Nice try.
Wilson's shirt is white not maroon.
His window is not somewhere about the middle of the third floor.
His window is shut.
***
>
> His affidavit:http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_03...
>
> (The only other people watching the motorcade on the 3rd floor at the
> time – Sandra Sue Ellison and Edna Case — were in the Macmillan & Co.
> office looking out a window on the west face of the building.)
Yes, at the time of the assassination - i.e. you have the timeframe
all wrong.
Carolyn Walther saw the "third floor" man before the epileptic
seizure. She's clearly talking about the open window in the middle of
the fourth floor.
Hank's right - just before the assassination Carolyn Walther saw a
gunman in the southeast window of the sixth floor.
Sean
yeuhd
> On Mar 13, 5:19 am, yeuhd <needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Do you really think Oswald was brazen enough, or stupid enough, to be
> > "leaning out the window with both his hands extended outside the
> > window ledge" and holding in those hands "a rifle with the barrel
> > pointed downward" in the minutes before the motorcade arrived?
>
> Minutes? Wrong timeframe.
It would have been between the time the ambulance left (circa 12:25
p.m.) and when the start of the motorcade entered Dealey Plaza (circa
12:29 p.m.).
> > (The only other people watching the motorcade on the 3rd floor at the
> > time – Sandra Sue Ellison and Edna Case — were in the Macmillan & Co.
> > office looking out a window on the west face of the building.)
>
> Yes, at the time of the assassination - i.e. you have the timeframe
> all wrong.
> Carolyn Walther saw the "third floor" man before the epileptic
> seizure. She's clearly talking about the open window in the middle of
> the fourth floor.
No man was on the 4th floor looking out the windows. We know this
because we know who was in the two rooms on the south side of the 4th
floor, including who was at the open window. See above.
Sean Murphy
> On Mar 13, 2:05 pm, Sean Murphy <seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 13, 5:19 am, yeuhd <needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Do you really think Oswald was brazen enough, or stupid enough, to be
> > > "leaning out the window with both his hands extended outside the
> > > window ledge" and holding in those hands "a rifle with the barrel
> > > pointed downward" in the minutes before the motorcade arrived?
>
> > Minutes? Wrong timeframe.
>
> It would have been between the time the ambulance left (circa 12:25
> p.m.) and when the start of the motorcade entered Dealey Plaza (circa
> 12:29 p.m.).
No. According to Walther, her attention was drawn to the President's
arrival "almost immediately" after her sighting of the man with the
gun.
***
>
> > > (The only other people watching the motorcade on the 3rd floor at the
> > > time – Sandra Sue Ellison and Edna Case — were in the Macmillan & Co.
> > > office looking out a window on the west face of the building.)
>
> > Yes, at the time of the assassination - i.e. you have the timeframe
> > all wrong.
> > Carolyn Walther saw the "third floor" man before the epileptic
> > seizure. She's clearly talking about the open window in the middle of
> > the fourth floor.
>
> No man was on the 4th floor looking out the windows. We know this
> because we know who was in the two rooms on the south side of the 4th
> floor, including who was at the open window. See above.
No. Wrong timeframe. She's not talking about the time of the assassination
but some 15+ minutes before that. You have information on who was doing
what in the fourth floor offices at that time? I thought not.
Sean
yeuhd
Yes. Do you?
Sean Murphy
Yes. There was a man in a brown suit with a very dark red shirt
looking out at an open window around the middle of the fourth floor.
Now over to you: what information do you have on fourth-floor activity
some 15+ minutes before the assassination?
Sean
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 15, 4:13 am, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 14, 2:12 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 14, 4:26 pm, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> No man was on the 4th floor looking out the windows. We know this
>>>> because we know who was in the two rooms on the south side of the 4th
>>>> floor, including who was at the open window. See above.
>>
>>> No. Wrong timeframe. She's not talking about the time of the assassination
>>> but some 15+ minutes before that. You have information on who was doing
>>> what in the fourth floor offices at that time?
>>
>> Yes. Do you?
>
> Yes. There was a man in a brown suit with a very dark red shirt
> looking out at an open window around the middle of the fourth floor.
>
Show me this man in a brown suit and very dark red shirt. Can you
describe Dorman's clothes?
> Now over to you: what information do you have on fourth-floor activity
> some 15+ minutes before the assassination?
>
Dorman.
> Sean
>
>
yeuhd
First, where do you get this "15+ minutes" time? The ambulance was called
at 12:18 p.m., which means Carolyn Walther could have first noticed this
man on the third floor (not the fourth) as late as 12:17 or 12:18 p.m.,
depending on how swiftly the ambulance was called after the spectator had
the epileptic seizure.
Second, the south face of the fourth floor of the TSBD building was
entirely Scott Forseman & Co., and we have a list of all of the employees
of the Scott Foresman & Co. office on November 22, 1963. The only male
employee, Joe Bergin, was in Chicago that day:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=789
Sean Murphy
> On 3/15/2010 10:21 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 15, 4:13 am, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Mar 14, 2:12 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Mar 14, 4:26 pm, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> No man was on the 4th floor looking out the windows. We know this
> >>>> because we know who was in the two rooms on the south side of the 4th
> >>>> floor, including who was at the open window. See above.
>
> >>> No. Wrong timeframe. She's not talking about the time of the assassination
> >>> but some 15+ minutes before that. You have information on who was doing
> >>> what in the fourth floor offices at that time?
>
> >> Yes. Do you?
>
> > Yes. There was a man in a brown suit with a very dark red shirt
> > looking out at an open window around the middle of the fourth floor.
>
> Show me this man in a brown suit and very dark red shirt.
That's how Carolyn Walther described him. You want a photo?
***
>Can you describe Dorman's clothes?
No. Why?
***
> > Now over to you: what information do you have on fourth-floor activity
> > some 15+ minutes before the assassination?
>
> Dorman.
OK. Tell me exactly what Elsie Dorman was doing at 12:15pm.
Sean
Sean Murphy
> On Mar 15, 10:21 am, Sean Murphy <seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 15, 4:13 am, yeuhd <needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 14, 2:12 pm, Sean Murphy <seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 14, 4:26 pm, yeuhd <needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > No man was on the 4th floor looking out the windows. We know this
> > > > > because we know who was in the two rooms on the south side of the 4th
> > > > > floor, including who was at the open window. See above.
>
> > > > No. Wrong timeframe. She's not talking about the time of the assassination
> > > > but some 15+ minutes before that. You have information on who was doing
> > > > what in the fourth floor offices at that time?
>
> > > Yes. Do you?
>
> > Yes. There was a man in a brown suit with a very dark red shirt
> > looking out at an open window around the middle of the fourth floor.
>
> > Now over to you: what information do you have on fourth-floor activity
> > some 15+ minutes before the assassination?
>
> First, where do you get this "15+ minutes" time? The ambulance was called
> at 12:18 p.m., which means Carolyn Walther could have first noticed this
> man on the third floor (not the fourth) as late as 12:17 or 12:18 p.m.,
> depending on how swiftly the ambulance was called after the spectator had
> the epileptic seizure.
Thanks to Arnold Rowland's testimony, we cannot reasonably timestamp
the epileptic seizure to any later than 12.16pm.
Carolyn Walther noticed the man in the "third floor" window at some
point before this.
Hence 12.15pm or a little earlier.
You want to argue for 12.17pm? Feel free. It still won't validate your
pointless reliance on CE1381.
***
>
> Second, the south face of the fourth floor of the TSBD building was
> entirely Scott Forseman & Co., and we have a list of all of the employees
> of the Scott Foresman & Co. office on November 22, 1963. The only male
> employee, Joe Bergin, was in Chicago that day:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=104...
So what?
Sean
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 15, 11:01 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 3/15/2010 10:21 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 15, 4:13 am, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mar 14, 2:12 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Mar 14, 4:26 pm, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> No man was on the 4th floor looking out the windows. We know this
>>>>>> because we know who was in the two rooms on the south side of the 4th
>>>>>> floor, including who was at the open window. See above.
>>
>>>>> No. Wrong timeframe. She's not talking about the time of the assassination
>>>>> but some 15+ minutes before that. You have information on who was doing
>>>>> what in the fourth floor offices at that time?
>>
>>>> Yes. Do you?
>>
>>> Yes. There was a man in a brown suit with a very dark red shirt
>>> looking out at an open window around the middle of the fourth floor.
>>
>> Show me this man in a brown suit and very dark red shirt.
>
> That's how Carolyn Walther described him. You want a photo?
>
So? Don't state something as a fact just because a witness said it.
> ***
>
>
>> Can you describe Dorman's clothes?
>
> No. Why?
>
Because one can not clearly see people on that floor well enough to
describe the clothing that accurately.
> ***
>
>>> Now over to you: what information do you have on fourth-floor activity
>>> some 15+ minutes before the assassination?
>>
>> Dorman.
>
> OK. Tell me exactly what Elsie Dorman was doing at 12:15pm.
>
Looking for a good spot to take pictures.
> Sean
>
Sean Murphy
> On 3/15/2010 9:55 PM, Sean Murphy wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 15, 11:01 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 3/15/2010 10:21 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:
>
> >>> On Mar 15, 4:13 am, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Mar 14, 2:12 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Mar 14, 4:26 pm, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> No man was on the 4th floor looking out the windows. We know this
> >>>>>> because we know who was in the two rooms on the south side of the 4th
> >>>>>> floor, including who was at the open window. See above.
>
> >>>>> No. Wrong timeframe. She's not talking about the time of the assassination
> >>>>> but some 15+ minutes before that. You have information on who was doing
> >>>>> what in the fourth floor offices at that time?
>
> >>>> Yes. Do you?
>
> >>> Yes. There was a man in a brown suit with a very dark red shirt
> >>> looking out at an open window around the middle of the fourth floor.
>
> >> Show me this man in a brown suit and very dark red shirt.
>
> > That's how Carolyn Walther described him. You want a photo?
>
> So? Don't state something as a fact just because a witness said it.
The witness was there. You weren't. Unless you have some good reason
to reject her recollection, don't assume you know better than her.
***
>
> > ***
>
> >> Can you describe Dorman's clothes?
>
> > No. Why?
>
> Because one can not clearly see people on that floor well enough to
> describe the clothing that accurately.
And you know this how?
***
>
> > ***
>
> >>> Now over to you: what information do you have on fourth-floor activity
> >>> some 15+ minutes before the assassination?
>
> >> Dorman.
>
> > OK. Tell me exactly what Elsie Dorman was doing at 12:15pm.
>
> Looking for a good spot to take pictures.
You know for a fact that she was actively doing this at 12.15pm?
Source, please.
Sean
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 16, 3:52 am, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 3/15/2010 9:55 PM, Sean Murphy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 15, 11:01 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/15/2010 10:21 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Mar 15, 4:13 am, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2:12 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 14, 4:26 pm, yeuhd<needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> No man was on the 4th floor looking out the windows. We know this
>>>>>>>> because we know who was in the two rooms on the south side of the 4th
>>>>>>>> floor, including who was at the open window. See above.
>>
>>>>>>> No. Wrong timeframe. She's not talking about the time of the assassination
>>>>>>> but some 15+ minutes before that. You have information on who was doing
>>>>>>> what in the fourth floor offices at that time?
>>
>>>>>> Yes. Do you?
>>
>>>>> Yes. There was a man in a brown suit with a very dark red shirt
>>>>> looking out at an open window around the middle of the fourth floor.
>>
>>>> Show me this man in a brown suit and very dark red shirt.
>>
>>> That's how Carolyn Walther described him. You want a photo?
>>
>> So? Don't state something as a fact just because a witness said it.
>
> The witness was there. You weren't. Unless you have some good reason
> to reject her recollection, don't assume you know better than her.
>
That doesn't matter. Just don't do it. Ever.
> ***
>
>>
>>> ***
>>
>>>> Can you describe Dorman's clothes?
>>
>>> No. Why?
>>
>> Because one can not clearly see people on that floor well enough to
>> describe the clothing that accurately.
>
> And you know this how?
>
Because I have examined many photographs and films showing the people in
the windows of the TSBD.
Sean Murphy
That doesn't matter. Don't confuse looking at old photographs and
films with actually being there. Ever.
>
>
>
> > ***
>
> >>> ***
>
> >>>>> Now over to you: what information do you have on fourth-floor activity
> >>>>> some 15+ minutes before the assassination?
>
> >>>> Dorman.
>
> >>> OK. Tell me exactly what Elsie Dorman was doing at 12:15pm.
>
> >> Looking for a good spot to take pictures.
>
> > You know for a fact that she was actively doing this at 12.15pm?
> > Source, please.
Right. You don't have a source. You were guessing. Thank you.
Sean