U of F computer psychic? PBK certificate to Judyth Baker, not Vary
polly brown
generated' also states that she'd receive a Phi Beta Kappa Award as
'the most creative undergraduate'. That in itself is curious, as
anyone who has been elected to PBK, such as myself, can attest.
The footnote that Judyth provides (87) shows on p. 651, a copy of what
does seem to be a PBK certificate from the U of F. It is quite tiny,
of course, but in layout does somewhat resemble my plaque.( Ironically,
PBK is most noted for something else, which Judyth fails to mention.)
The certificate is assigned to "Judyth Baker". How did the computer
that randomly assigned her grades and apparently gave her, unearned,
this award, as a 'balm' know whom she would marry? Why isn't it
"Judyth Vary"? There is a tiny date at the bottom that I cannot read,
which should indicate when the presentation was made (Judyth doesn't
mention that either). But either way, if this award was 'given' prior
to her trip to NOLA, wasn't it also prior to her marriage?
Pamela McElwain-Brown
www.in-broad-daylight.com
Canuck
Could it be that we are dealing with a compulsive liar? - Peter R.
Whitmey
Anthony Marsh
> Judyth states on p. 33, while describing how her grades were 'randomly
> generated' also states that she'd receive a Phi Beta Kappa Award as
> 'the most creative undergraduate'. That in itself is curious, as
> anyone who has been elected to PBK, such as myself, can attest.
>
Just curious here. If you really are a Phi Beta Kappa, isn't there some
type of record of that which you can produce on demand? Some central
registry, school program notes, whatever? So likewise shouldn't Judyth be
able to document her claim?
Spence
Never stopped her in the past.
cdddraftsman
And people complain that someone ( unknown ) paid somebody else ( unknown
) to wack JFK , besides LHO ? Why didn't they hire Judyth , with one book
JFK would of been a goner . Tom Lowry
Barb Junkkarinen
>polly brown wrote:
>> Judyth states on p. 33, while describing how her grades were 'randomly
>> generated' also states that she'd receive a Phi Beta Kappa Award as
>> 'the most creative undergraduate'. That in itself is curious, as
>> anyone who has been elected to PBK, such as myself, can attest.
>> The footnote that Judyth provides (87) shows on p. 651, a copy of what
>> does seem to be a PBK certificate from the U of F. It is quite tiny,
>> of course, but in layout does somewhat resemble my plaque.( Ironically,
>> PBK is most noted for something else, which Judyth fails to mention.)
>>
>> The certificate is assigned to "Judyth Baker". How did the computer
>> that randomly assigned her grades and apparently gave her, unearned,
>> this award, as a 'balm' know whom she would marry? Why isn't it
>> "Judyth Vary"? There is a tiny date at the bottom that I cannot read,
>> which should indicate when the presentation was made (Judyth doesn't
>> mention that either). But either way, if this award was 'given' prior
>> to her trip to NOLA, wasn't it also prior to her marriage?
One would think so, wouldn't one.
And I have a question. Does your certificate/plaque have your name
printed unevenly in what looks like Sharpie rather than is some fine
calligraphy type text?
The date says 1963 ... I can't read the month even with a magnifying
glass but the month only appears to have 3 letters ... which would
mean they abbreviated it on a PBK certificate. I find that odd as
well.
You ?
Barb :-)
>>
>> Pamela McElwain-Brown
>> www.in-broad-daylight.com
>>
>>
Pamela McElwain-Brown
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>polly brown wrote:
>> Judyth states on p. 33, while describing how her grades were 'randomly
>> generated' also states that she'd receive a Phi Beta Kappa Award as
>> 'the most creative undergraduate'. That in itself is curious, as
>> anyone who has been elected to PBK, such as myself, can attest.
>>
>
>Just curious here. If you really are a Phi Beta Kappa, isn't there some
>type of record of that which you can produce on demand? Some central
>registry, school program notes, whatever? So likewise shouldn't Judyth be
>able to document her claim?
What Judyth showed as documentation was a teensy form that looked similar
to my PBK plaque. I couldn't read the date.
With PBK there is indeed a record kept of those elected to it. Also, the
chapter of the university keeps records as well. http://www.pbk.org/
Since my initial post I have contacted the Beta chapter of FL (UF) where I
was told that Judyth did indeed win an award given by PBK in 1965. She
won it as 'Judyth Baker', and of course was married by that time. She was
never elected to PBK, as she only completed an associates of arts degree
there. PBK is only awarded to those fulfilling a 4-year degree. So she is
not a member of PBK; but she did receive an award from them.
An irony is that Judyth calls this a 'balm' to her having her grades
randomly generated by a computer. The implication seemed to be that she
'knew' she would earn this award in 1963 when she entetred UF. I find
that difficult to believe, much less the equally sinister implication that
she was doled out this award rather than having earned it rightfully. I
just sent another email requesting details on the process by which this
award was made. [...]
Pamela
Pamela McElwain-Brown
nearly unreadable. It was for an award, not election to PBK itself.
Pamela
Pamela McElwain-Brown
<barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>polly brown wrote:
>>> Judyth states on p. 33, while describing how her grades were 'randomly
>>> generated' also states that she'd receive a Phi Beta Kappa Award as
>>> 'the most creative undergraduate'. That in itself is curious, as
>>> anyone who has been elected to PBK, such as myself, can attest.
>
>>> The footnote that Judyth provides (87) shows on p. 651, a copy of what
>>> does seem to be a PBK certificate from the U of F. It is quite tiny,
>>> of course, but in layout does somewhat resemble my plaque.( Ironically,
>>> PBK is most noted for something else, which Judyth fails to mention.)
>>>
>>> The certificate is assigned to "Judyth Baker". How did the computer
>>> that randomly assigned her grades and apparently gave her, unearned,
>>> this award, as a 'balm' know whom she would marry? Why isn't it
>>> "Judyth Vary"? There is a tiny date at the bottom that I cannot read,
>>> which should indicate when the presentation was made (Judyth doesn't
>>> mention that either). But either way, if this award was 'given' prior
>>> to her trip to NOLA, wasn't it also prior to her marriage?
>
>One would think so, wouldn't one.
>
>And I have a question. Does your certificate/plaque have your name
>printed unevenly in what looks like Sharpie rather than is some fine
>calligraphy type text?
I agree, the printing is wierd. However, I checked with the chapter
that was involved and they said Judyth did indeed win an award given
by PBK in 1965, as "Judyth Baker". She was married by then.
>
>The date says 1963 ... I can't read the month even with a magnifying
>glass but the month only appears to have 3 letters ... which would
>mean they abbreviated it on a PBK certificate. I find that odd as
>well.
>
>You ?
Hmm. Could be '65. Judyth's probably is a certificate; mine is a
metal and wooden engraved plaque with everything written out...
Pamela
Barb Junkkarinen
<pame...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Good job. And my reading 1963 is obviously askew. Wish they had made
those graphics big enough to see!
>>
>>The date says 1963 ... I can't read the month even with a magnifying
>>glass but the month only appears to have 3 letters ... which would
>>mean they abbreviated it on a PBK certificate. I find that odd as
>>well.
>>
>>You ?
>
>Hmm. Could be '65.
Yup...must be.
Barb :-)
Martin Shackelford
where to send it. As she was married by then, they put her married name
on it.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>No, Peter W. I wish you wouldn't add to the attack garbage.
It's not "attack garbage" Martin. What you have claimed as fact for
years is being shown to be inaccurate ... and worse, to be nothing but
hearsay that you have been told, non documented, from others.
Barb
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>You got the year wrong--it's Apr. 9, 1965
>
>Martin
Why yes, it was '65 .... as I posted last night in response to Pamela
after she tracked it down and found when the award had been issued ...
and that one actually had been issued. Ridiculous that the graphics
are too small to read in this book.
Barb
JLeyd...@aol.com
that's she's a member of PBK which would not have been possible since she
received only an AA degree at U of Florida. Got it in '65 with an English
major, I believe, not one of the sciences which gives a lie to her claims
of being a teen-aged Madame Curie. I check out the PBK class news clip
for my own senior year in college and noted that every one was a
graduating senior with a few pushy juniors thrown in. There were no "Miss
Congeniality"-type awards given. Talked to a man at national PBK hq. and
he said local chapters have a lot of discretion so I guess anything is
possible. She probably already had started on her "Judyth & Lee" saga and
that certainly would have qualified for a "most creative" award.
JGL
Pamela McElwain-Brown
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>It was earned earlier, but sent to her April 9, 1965, when they knew
>where to send it. As she was married by then, they put her married name
>on it.
What makes you think it was 'earned' earlier? And how was it 'earned'
at all?
Per Judyth's statements it was given to her as a 'balm' for the false
not-great grades supposedly 'generated by computer'. The negative
implication is that she was studying liberal arts, not doing well, and is
blaming it on the computer. I don't even know what kind of computer they
had back then. This just doesn't make sense.
Pamela
Pamela McElwain-Brown
That does exist with PBK.
The certificate in itself was confusing standing alone, even without
the inference that Judyth did not earn the award, but was given it
along with passing grades by a computer.
Per the Beta FL chapter of PBK, the award was given to Judyth in 1965
when she was married and thus Judyth Baker.
Pamela
On 11 Aug 2006 16:40:33 -0400, Martin Shackelford
Anthony Marsh
> On 11 Aug 2006 17:18:23 -0400, Martin Shackelford
> <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>> You got the year wrong--it's Apr. 9, 1965
>>
>> Martin
>
> Why yes, it was '65 .... as I posted last night in response to Pamela
> after she tracked it down and found when the award had been issued ...
> and that one actually had been issued. Ridiculous that the graphics
> are too small to read in this book.
>
You are not being clear here. Are you actually admitting, heaven forbid,
that you personally verified that a claim made by Judyth is true?
Anthony Marsh
> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>
Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
national headquarters and ask them about it?
Anthony Marsh
> It was earned earlier, but sent to her April 9, 1965, when they knew
> where to send it. As she was married by then, they put her married name
> on it.
>
They? They who? If there IS a they, wouldn't THEY have a record of
sending it? I'd like to see that record that THEY sent it.
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>> On 11 Aug 2006 17:18:23 -0400, Martin Shackelford
>> <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>>
>>> You got the year wrong--it's Apr. 9, 1965
>>>
>>> Martin
>>
>> Why yes, it was '65 .... as I posted last night in response to Pamela
>> after she tracked it down and found when the award had been issued ...
>> and that one actually had been issued. Ridiculous that the graphics
>> are too small to read in this book.
>>
>
>You are not being clear here. Are you actually admitting, heaven forbid,
>that you personally verified that a claim made by Judyth is true?
Keep reading, Tony. Pamela thought the graphic of the PBK award was
odd. I did too. She couldn't read the date but note it was in the name
Baker, not Vary ... which also seemed odd. I thought the year looked
like 63 ... Panela verified thru some UF PBK site that Judyth DID get
a PBK award .... dated 65. So I was incorrect when I thought the year
in that teeny graphic looked like/said 63. But if you want to give
Judyth a big A+ for having received award she claimed to have rec'd
... sure, then that is one claim that's verified....by Pamela.
Nevermind it has zero, zip, nada to do with her tale....Judyth's tale,
Pamela doesn't have a tale....
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
<pame...@mindspring.com> wrote:
It's one more glaring example of anytime something went/goes wrong,
there's always an excuse, an explanation .... it was somebody else's
screwup and poor Judyth suffered for it.
I think it's nonsense that grades couldn't have been/wouldn't have
been corrected quite easily and immediately regardless as to how wrong
grades got generated in the first place.
Barb :-)
>
>Pamela
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Martin Shackelford wrote:
>> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>>
>
>Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
>fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
>national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
>national headquarters and ask them about it?
Track, Tony. Pamela found verification that PBK had given Judyth an
award in '65 on some website where they list that sort of thing; she
also said she is checking further/deeper on the whole thing as, being
a PBK herself, something here just doesn't make sense to her.
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
>More Jusyth nonsense. She's obviously trying to give the imrpession
>that's she's a member of PBK which would not have been possible since she
>received only an AA degree at U of Florida. Got it in '65 with an English
>major, I believe, not one of the sciences which gives a lie to her claims
>of being a teen-aged Madame Curie. I check out the PBK class news clip
>for my own senior year in college and noted that every one was a
>graduating senior with a few pushy juniors thrown in. There were no "Miss
>Congeniality"-type awards given. Talked to a man at national PBK hq. and
>he said local chapters have a lot of discretion so I guess anything is
>possible. She probably already had started on her "Judyth & Lee" saga and
>that certainly would have qualified for a "most creative" award.
Or maybe they found her explanation as to why the poor grades weren't
hers but were the work of some computer as being quite creative. <g>
Barb :-)
Pamela McElwain-Brown
I have to agree with you here.
This UF grade discussion in Judyth's book opens the door to the
possibility that the Dean of Women committed computer fraud in order to
get Judyth grades for classes she never went to (though supposedly she was
auditing others).
I am finding that difficult to accept. It seems more to me that Judyth is
trying to ramp up her qualifications by garbling the grades just in case
anyone gets ahold of her transcript. I would love to be wrong. :-0
Pamela
Barb Junkkarinen
<pame...@mindspring.com> wrote:
But sometimes 1 = 1 really does = 2. Yours is a reasonable take on it,
imo.
Barb :-)
>
>Pamela
Pamela McElwain-Brown
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Martin Shackelford wrote:
>> It was earned earlier, but sent to her April 9, 1965, when they knew
>> where to send it. As she was married by then, they put her married name
>> on it.
>>
>
>They? They who? If there IS a they, wouldn't THEY have a record of
>sending it? I'd like to see that record that THEY sent it.
"They" are the Beta chapter of Florida of PBK AT FU. I am in touch with
their historian, Andrew Gordon. I expect he has upchucked a meal or two
by now over this, though he gallantly called Judyth 'quite a character.'
They have a record of an award being made to Judyth Baker in 1965. The
award was for creativity. I don't think any of us would find that
surprising.
Everyone is retired or dead who would have been directly involved with
Judyth, so I don't know how much more detail I can find. However, I am
curious and keeping my sleuth hat firmly in place...
Pamela
Pamela McElwain-Brown
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Martin Shackelford wrote:
>> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>>
>
>Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
>fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
>national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
>national headquarters and ask them about it?
I did verify this by email with Andrew Gordon, historian of the Beta
Chapter of Florida PBK. It was an award made at the discretion of the
chapter to a promisingly creative 2-year graduate. Judyth won that award
in 1965. I don't know if there was a special submission of a project or
paper to be eligible for it, or if the professors involved picked the
recipient. She impressed the faculty with her creativity, even way back
then.
Pamela
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Anthony Marsh
> On 11 Aug 2006 20:59:42 -0400, Anthony Marsh
> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Martin Shackelford wrote:
>>> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>>>
>> Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
>> fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
>> national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
>> national headquarters and ask them about it?
>
> Track, Tony. Pamela found verification that PBK had given Judyth an
> award in '65 on some website where they list that sort of thing; she
> also said she is checking further/deeper on the whole thing as, being
> a PBK herself, something here just doesn't make sense to her.
>
I don't think so. If so she would have lead us to that URL. I think you
continue to misrepresent Pamela pro forma. What she told me is that she
actually picked up the phone and called some guy, obviously something you
were not capable of doing. So again, my question is whether YOU actually
caved in and stipulated to the accuracy of something Judyth said. If she
said the sun rises in the east, you'd want to see a notarized document.
Anthony Marsh
> On 11 Aug 2006 20:58:54 -0400, Anthony Marsh
> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>>> On 11 Aug 2006 17:18:23 -0400, Martin Shackelford
>>> <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You got the year wrong--it's Apr. 9, 1965
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>> Why yes, it was '65 .... as I posted last night in response to Pamela
>>> after she tracked it down and found when the award had been issued ...
>>> and that one actually had been issued. Ridiculous that the graphics
>>> are too small to read in this book.
>>>
>> You are not being clear here. Are you actually admitting, heaven forbid,
>> that you personally verified that a claim made by Judyth is true?
>
> Keep reading, Tony. Pamela thought the graphic of the PBK award was
> odd. I did too. She couldn't read the date but note it was in the name
> Baker, not Vary ... which also seemed odd. I thought the year looked
> like 63 ... Panela verified thru some UF PBK site that Judyth DID get
> a PBK award .... dated 65. So I was incorrect when I thought the year
> in that teeny graphic looked like/said 63. But if you want to give
> Judyth a big A+ for having received award she claimed to have rec'd
> ... sure, then that is one claim that's verified....by Pamela.
> Nevermind it has zero, zip, nada to do with her tale....Judyth's tale,
> Pamela doesn't have a tale....
>
If I were giving out grades, at least I would give Pamela the A+ for
actually trying to verify something. And I'd give you an F for making
false claims of fakery without bothering to do ANY analysis whatsoever.
Pamela McElwain-Brown
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>> On 11 Aug 2006 20:59:42 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Martin Shackelford wrote:
>>>> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>>>>
>>> Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
>>> fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
>>> national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
>>> national headquarters and ask them about it?
>>
>> Track, Tony. Pamela found verification that PBK had given Judyth an
>> award in '65 on some website where they list that sort of thing; she
>> also said she is checking further/deeper on the whole thing as, being
>> a PBK herself, something here just doesn't make sense to her.
>>
>
>I don't think so. If so she would have lead us to that URL.
[...]
Sorry if I was confusing. I found the UF PBK website here:
http://www.honors.ufl.edu/pbk/
and checked out their contact list. I selected Andrew Gordon, as he
is their historian. I have emailed him twice. Here is the exchange:
----- Original Message -----
From: "GORDON,ANDREW M" <ago...@ufl.edu>
To: "Pamela McElwain-Brown" <pame...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Judyth Vary Baker UF PBK?
> Shes sounds like quite a character! Universities did have
> computers in 1965, but of the primitive variety that ran on IBM
> punch cards. I'll see if I can find any other data, but 40 years
> later most of the faculty are deceased. I' relying on what few
> records the PBK chapter kept.
>
> Best,
> Andrew Gordon
>
> On Fri Aug 11 00:43:21 EDT 2006, Pamela McElwain-Brown
> <pame...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> I am a JFK assassination researcher. I have been in contact with
>> Judyth for almost two years. Her statements about her
>> relationship with Lee Oswald are very controversial; much less
>> her statements about being involved in a secret project in New
>> Orleans in the summer of '63. Please Google her name, if you
>> wish to see the furor.
>>
>> I have been keeping an open mind, waiting for Judyth's book to be
>> available. Now it is, and I am working my way through it, trying
>> to make sense of what appear to be layers of the life of this
>> woman when she was young (the book is set in the early 60's).
>>
>> In describing this PBK award, she says implies that she knew when
>> she enrolled at FU that she would be 'given' it (as opposed to
>> earning it). She says on p. 32 that she had a buddy in the Dean
>> of Women at the time, Marian Brady; that Brady "slipped her name
>> into a computer" (did the U have one then?) to give her a
>> student id number with which to pay for her meals, books, and
>> bills. She then said her grades were 'randomly generated', and
>> that she was 'guaranteed to pass every subject'. She said she
>> would then have a 'full scholarship, and 'receive a PBK award...a
>> kind of balm' given to her because of the randomly-generated
>> grades, which were not so good -- a 2.5 GPA.
>>
>> In this context, how could I not be curious?
>>
>> Pamela
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "GORDON,ANDREW M"
>> <ago...@ufl.edu>
>> To: "Pamela McElwain-Brown" <pame...@mindspring.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Judyth Vary Baker UF PBK?
>>
>>
>>> Hi, Pamela,
>>>
>>> The award was given once a year, to one or two students. It
>>> is no longer awarded. I'll have to check retired faculty (if
>>> they're still alive) for the criteria.
>>> Why are you interested?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Andrew Gordon
>>>
>>> On Thu Aug 10 20:06:00 EDT 2006, Pamela McElwain-Brown
>>> <pame...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you so much for your quick reply. Can you tell me
>>>> anything about what the criteria were for this award, and who
>>>> would have been eligible? Was there a specific 'creative
>>>> achievement' that Judyth was responsible for, such as an
>>>> article or a story? Was there a specific major or area of
>>>> expertise required? Was this an award only given when somone
>>>> merited it, or was/is it given every year or semester?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Pamela McElwain-Brown
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANDREW GORDON"
>>>> <ago...@ufl.edu>
>>>> To: "Pamela McElwain-Brown" <pame...@mindspring.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:38 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Judyth Vary Baker UF PBK?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Pamela McElwain-Brown,
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone named Judyth Baker did indeeed receive a Phi
>>>>> Beta Kappa Creative Achievement award from Beta chapter at the
>>>>> University of Florida in 1965. She was the only undergraduate
>>>>> given the award that year.
>>>>> But she was never inducted into Phi Beta Kappa, at least
>>>>> not at UF. An AA degree is given after two years, and
>>>>> initiation into Phi Beta Kappa is only for junior and seniors.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Gordon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At 04:20 PM 8/10/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>> In Judyth Vary Baker's recently published book "Lee Harvey
>>>>>> Oswald" she states on p 32 that she received an apparently
>>>>>> unearned "Phi Beta Kappa Award" as "the most creative
>>>>>> undergraduate". In her footnote to this statement she shows
>>>>>> a very tiny copy of what appears to be an authentic PBK
>>>>>> certificate from the Beta chapter of UF, made out to "Judyth
>>>>>> Baker". The date is too small to read. "Baker" is Judyth's
>>>>>> married name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the next page, Judyth states that she received an
>>>>>> Associate of Arts Degree from UF in 1965.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am quite confused. Can you tell me if Judyth Vary Baker was
>>>>>> actually awarded PBK, and, if so, how that was done with an
>>>>>> AA degree (I thought it was awarded in the 3rd or 4th year
>>>>>> only). Also, there were probably others given the same award
>>>>>> at the time; can you tell me about how many there were?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Pamela McElwain-Brown
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Professor Andrew Gordon
>>>>> Department of English
>>>>> PO Box 117310
>>>>> University of Florida
>>>>> Gainesville, FL 32611-7310
>>>>>
>>>>> 352-392-6650 x254
>>>>> fax: 352-392-0860
>>>>>
>>>>> http://web.clas.ufl.edu/users/agordon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Andrew M Gordon
>>> Department of English
>>> PO Box 117310
>>> University of Florida
>>> Gainesville, FL 32611-7310
>>>
>>> 352-372-7264 (home)
>>> 352-392-6650 x 254 (office)
>>> http://web.clas.ufl.edu/users/agordon
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Professor Andrew M Gordon
> Department of English
> PO Box 117310
> University of Florida
> Gainesville, FL 32611-7310
>
> 352-372-7264 (home)
> 352-392-6650 x 254 (office)
> http://web.clas.ufl.edu/users/agordon
>
Pamela
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>No garbling. We have the transcript.
>
>Martin
Well, it must be one more NOT "all documentation is in the book" then
because Pamela has read the entire book.
Why isn't it in the book?
And since it is not, what does it show for classes/grades?
Judyth makes claims about the grades/transcript in the book, Martin
.... so how about some real answers?
Barb
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Fortunately, Anthony, your grades don't matter much to anyone here,
least of all me. I tried to read the date, said what I thought it said
... and it was wrong. More than one has given kudos to Pamela for her
legwork on this award ... and she isn't done yet. (And she did it all
without so much as a hint of direction from you.) :-)
Barb
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>> On 11 Aug 2006 20:59:42 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Martin Shackelford wrote:
>>>> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>>>>
>>> Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
>>> fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
>>> national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
>>> national headquarters and ask them about it?
>>
>> Track, Tony. Pamela found verification that PBK had given Judyth an
>> award in '65 on some website where they list that sort of thing; she
>> also said she is checking further/deeper on the whole thing as, being
>> a PBK herself, something here just doesn't make sense to her.
>>
>
>I don't think so.
You think Pamela is lying?
> If so she would have lead us to that URL.
She posted at least one. And she named the person she's been in
contact about this as well.
> I think you
>continue to misrepresent Pamela pro forma.
Ridiculous.
>What she told me is that she
>actually picked up the phone and called some guy, obviously something you
>were not capable of doing.
I think it was night time when I read her post.<g> Don't know if I
would have anyway. I also don't think Pamela p[icked up the phone. I
believe you are incorrect about that. As you so often are about what
people say, imo. :-)
>So again, my question is whether YOU actually
>caved in and stipulated to the accuracy of something Judyth said. If she
>said the sun rises in the east, you'd want to see a notarized document.
Ridiculous, Tony ... nobody any longer expects anything notarized out
of that crowd. :-) And this question has been asked and
answered...answered thoroughly, I might add.
Check out your own "pro forma" Anthony ... you're batting zero here.
Barb
Barb Junkkarinen
<pame...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 12 Aug 2006 13:40:13 -0400, Anthony Marsh
><anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>>> On 11 Aug 2006 20:59:42 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Martin Shackelford wrote:
>>>>> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>>>>>
>>>> Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
>>>> fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
>>>> national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
>>>> national headquarters and ask them about it?
>>>
>>> Track, Tony. Pamela found verification that PBK had given Judyth an
>>> award in '65 on some website where they list that sort of thing; she
>>> also said she is checking further/deeper on the whole thing as, being
>>> a PBK herself, something here just doesn't make sense to her.
>>>
>>
>>I don't think so. If so she would have lead us to that URL.
>[...]
>
>Sorry if I was confusing.
You weren't confusing in the least, Pamela, and thank you for
REposting the website and REexplaining your contact with Mr. Gordon.
Barb :-)
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Martin,
Attack garbage? Baker's account of the Trade Mart leafletting incident
was debunked by somebody who was actually there, among others. Baker's
account of the Trade Mart leafletting incident is the garbage here,
Martin. Quite simply, it is implausible and riddled with factual
inconsistencies. She hasn't done too well on a range of other issues,
either.
Is her scanner still on the lawn? Such a shame for "serious" JFK
researchers that she was inconvenienced in that manner and off the air
for awhile. Hopefully normal service has now been resumed and yet more
inaccuracies can be provided by her to be shot down by that nasty group
of posters indulging in "attack garbage", as you so politely term it.
Her Trade Mart defence post, as relayed by you, was nothing short of
pathetic.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
"Newsgroup Commentator"
Martin Shackelford wrote:
> No, Peter W. I wish you wouldn't add to the attack garbage.
>
> Martin
>
> Canuck wrote:
>
> > polly brown wrote:
> >
> >>Judyth states on p. 33, while describing how her grades were 'randomly
> >>generated' also states that she'd receive a Phi Beta Kappa Award as
> >>'the most creative undergraduate'. That in itself is curious, as
> >>anyone who has been elected to PBK, such as myself, can attest.
> >>
> >>The footnote that Judyth provides (87) shows on p. 651, a copy of what
> >>does seem to be a PBK certificate from the U of F. It is quite tiny,
> >>of course, but in layout does somewhat resemble my plaque.( Ironically,
> >>PBK is most noted for something else, which Judyth fails to mention.)
> >>
> >>The certificate is assigned to "Judyth Baker". How did the computer
> >>that randomly assigned her grades and apparently gave her, unearned,
> >>this award, as a 'balm' know whom she would marry? Why isn't it
> >>"Judyth Vary"? There is a tiny date at the bottom that I cannot read,
> >>which should indicate when the presentation was made (Judyth doesn't
> >>mention that either). But either way, if this award was 'given' prior
> >>to her trip to NOLA, wasn't it also prior to her marriage?
> >>
> >>Pamela McElwain-Brown
> >>www.in-broad-daylight.com
> >
> >
Anthony Marsh
> On 12 Aug 2006 13:40:13 -0400, Anthony Marsh
> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>>> On 11 Aug 2006 20:59:42 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Martin Shackelford wrote:
>>>>> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>>>>>
>>>> Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
>>>> fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
>>>> national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
>>>> national headquarters and ask them about it?
>>> Track, Tony. Pamela found verification that PBK had given Judyth an
>>> award in '65 on some website where they list that sort of thing; she
>>> also said she is checking further/deeper on the whole thing as, being
>>> a PBK herself, something here just doesn't make sense to her.
>>>
>> I don't think so.
>
> You think Pamela is lying?
>
>> If so she would have lead us to that URL.
>
> She posted at least one. And she named the person she's been in
> contact about this as well.
>
YOU are the one I doubt. You said that Pamela found the information on a
Web site. She said she got it by calling someone. Not the same thing.
>> I think you
>> continue to misrepresent Pamela pro forma.
>
> Ridiculous.
>
>> What she told me is that she
>> actually picked up the phone and called some guy, obviously something you
>> were not capable of doing.
>
> I think it was night time when I read her post.<g> Don't know if I
> would have anyway. I also don't think Pamela p[icked up the phone. I
> believe you are incorrect about that. As you so often are about what
> people say, imo. :-)
>
So, now your only way out is to call Pamela a liar?
William Yates
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> No garbling. We have the transcript.
>
> Martin
She says she got an A, two B's, a C and a D. The D was in chemistry. Would
you care to tell us what classes the transcripts show her taking at UF and
what grades she got in them? It might be interesting to see the "randomly
generated pattern."
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>> On 12 Aug 2006 13:40:13 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>>>> On 11 Aug 2006 20:59:42 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>>>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Martin Shackelford wrote:
>>>>>> I would have thought the signed certificate would document it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Having not seen it, I don't know. I don't know if it is genuine or a
>>>>> fake. That is why I suggested that someone look for records. It's a
>>>>> national organization, isn't it? Did anyone think to call up the
>>>>> national headquarters and ask them about it?
>>>> Track, Tony. Pamela found verification that PBK had given Judyth an
>>>> award in '65 on some website where they list that sort of thing; she
>>>> also said she is checking further/deeper on the whole thing as, being
>>>> a PBK herself, something here just doesn't make sense to her.
>>>>
>>> I don't think so.
>>
>> You think Pamela is lying?
>>
>>> If so she would have lead us to that URL.
>>
>> She posted at least one. And she named the person she's been in
>> contact about this as well.
>>
>
>YOU are the one I doubt. You said that Pamela found the information on a
>Web site. She said she got it by calling someone. Not the same thing.
She did not. In fact she replied to your post and noted the website
and that she had had 2 e-mail exchanges with the gentleman she picked
as her contact.
>
>>> I think you
>>> continue to misrepresent Pamela pro forma.
>>
>> Ridiculous.
>>
>>> What she told me is that she
>>> actually picked up the phone and called some guy, obviously something you
>>> were not capable of doing.
>>
>> I think it was night time when I read her post.<g> Don't know if I
>> would have anyway. I also don't think Pamela p[icked up the phone. I
>> believe you are incorrect about that. As you so often are about what
>> people say, imo. :-)
>>
>
>So, now your only way out is to call Pamela a liar?
I'm not calling Pamela a liar. You apparently are, for she clearly
said, and posted, that she first went to a website and then e-mailed
someone.
Here is the pertinent section from her reply to YOU yesterday:
QUOTE
Sorry if I was confusing. I found the UF PBK website here:
http://www.honors.ufl.edu/pbk/
and checked out their contact list. I selected Andrew Gordon, as he
is their historian. I have emailed him twice. Here is the exchange:
----- Original Message -----
From: "GORDON,ANDREW M" <ago...@ufl.edu>
To: "Pamela McElwain-Brown" <pame...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Judyth Vary Baker UF PBK?
..........
END QUOTE
It is you who are rightfully doubted on so many of your claims ...
especially the huffy ones about others. which pretty much covers the
bulk of your posts, in my opinion.
Barb
Canuck
Martin Shackelford wrote:
> No, Peter W. I wish you wouldn't add to the attack garbage.
>
> Martin
>
I'm merely posing a legitimate question related to Judyth's
credibility, and not attacking her, nor do I consider what I stated to
be "garbage", Martin. Btw, why do you have to defend her all the time?
Can't she respond herself? - Peter R. Whitmey
> Canuck wrote:
>
> > polly brown wrote:
> >
> >>Judyth states on p. 33, while describing how her grades were 'randomly
> >>generated' also states that she'd receive a Phi Beta Kappa Award as
> >>'the most creative undergraduate'. That in itself is curious, as
> >>anyone who has been elected to PBK, such as myself, can attest.
> >>
> >>The footnote that Judyth provides (87) shows on p. 651, a copy of what
> >>does seem to be a PBK certificate from the U of F. It is quite tiny,
> >>of course, but in layout does somewhat resemble my plaque.( Ironically,
> >>PBK is most noted for something else, which Judyth fails to mention.)
> >>
> >>The certificate is assigned to "Judyth Baker". How did the computer
> >>that randomly assigned her grades and apparently gave her, unearned,
> >>this award, as a 'balm' know whom she would marry? Why isn't it
> >>"Judyth Vary"? There is a tiny date at the bottom that I cannot read,
> >>which should indicate when the presentation was made (Judyth doesn't
> >>mention that either). But either way, if this award was 'given' prior
> >>to her trip to NOLA, wasn't it also prior to her marriage?
> >>
> >>Pamela McElwain-Brown
> >>www.in-broad-daylight.com
> >
> >
Anthony Marsh
I did not call Pamela a liar. I questioned your characterization of what
she said which had her actually getting the details from a Web site. Now
it is not a matter of calling the guy on the phone, but getting some
e-mail.
>
>>>> I think you
>>>> continue to misrepresent Pamela pro forma.
>>> Ridiculous.
>>>
>>>> What she told me is that she
>>>> actually picked up the phone and called some guy, obviously something you
>>>> were not capable of doing.
>>> I think it was night time when I read her post.<g> Don't know if I
>>> would have anyway. I also don't think Pamela p[icked up the phone. I
>>> believe you are incorrect about that. As you so often are about what
>>> people say, imo. :-)
>>>
>> So, now your only way out is to call Pamela a liar?
>
> I'm not calling Pamela a liar. You apparently are, for she clearly
> said, and posted, that she first went to a website and then e-mailed
> someone.
>
That's not what you said that she said. You said that she got the
information from a Web site.
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
In other words, you were wrong. And it wasn't moi who mischaracterized
anything or anyone. You did. :-)
Tony spateth:
"I think you
continue to misrepresent Pamela pro forma.
What she told me is that she
actually picked up the phone and called some guy, obviously something
you were not capable of doing. "
'Nuf said.
Pamela McElwain-Brown
>
>polly brown wrote:
>> Judyth states on p. 33, while describing how her grades were 'randomly
>> generated' also states that she'd receive a Phi Beta Kappa Award as
>> 'the most creative undergraduate'. That in itself is curious, as
>> anyone who has been elected to PBK, such as myself, can attest.
>>
>> The footnote that Judyth provides (87) shows on p. 651, a copy of what
>> does seem to be a PBK certificate from the U of F. It is quite tiny,
>> of course, but in layout does somewhat resemble my plaque.( Ironically,
>> PBK is most noted for something else, which Judyth fails to mention.)
>>
>> The certificate is assigned to "Judyth Baker". How did the computer
>> that randomly assigned her grades and apparently gave her, unearned,
>> this award, as a 'balm' know whom she would marry? Why isn't it
>> "Judyth Vary"? There is a tiny date at the bottom that I cannot read,
>> which should indicate when the presentation was made (Judyth doesn't
>> mention that either). But either way, if this award was 'given' prior
>> to her trip to NOLA, wasn't it also prior to her marriage?
>>
>> Pamela McElwain-Brown
>> www.in-broad-daylight.com
>
>Could it be that we are dealing with a compulsive liar? - Peter R.
>Whitmey
>
Your question implies your having made a decision on Judyth's credibility.
Your opinion; mine is different.
I am finding that I have many questions about Judyth's statements, most of
which are not substantiated by what I would call documentation in her
book. My thinking is that Judyth can be comfortable making a statement to
which she has no understanding of the impact, while at the same time
declining to provide objective documentation for it. Then she is amazed
that she is not considered 'credible'. I see her not understanding the
degree to which her extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof for
people who liked to be grounded, such as myself, to be comfortable
accepting.
Basically, I see Judyth's statements at three levels -- (1) did she know
LHO, (2) did she have a personal relationship with LHO and (3) was she
(with LHO) involved in a get-Castro project in Ferrie's apt?
Judyth has credentials to Reily, so I have no difficulty acknowledging
Judyth and LHO probably knew each other. Judyth has a book with LHO's
handwriting in the margins, so I am comfortable acknowledging the
possibility that they did have a personal relationship.
However, when we come to the third level, of the lab, any statements in
that regard or leading up to it require to my thinking a very high level
of objective documentation for me to be comfortable with them. I have not
seen these things yet. That doesn't mean they don't exist. That doesn't
mean to me that Judyth isn't being truthful. It simply says to me "Whoa,
Nellie" I'll have to keep an open mind on this while declining jumping
into hyperspeed with Judyth, Martin and Howard.
In the meantime, as you can probably imagine, I there are repercussions to
my statements behind the scenes. I stated nearly two years ago that I
would keep an open mind on Judyth's statements until the book came out.
That may have been misinterpreted. I hope I'm mistaken...but if I start
making references to figures like Speer and Rommel, perhaps you'll
understand my position. :-)
Pamela
Martin Shackelford
of contact via e-mail even.
Martin
Canuck
Martin Shackelford wrote:
> No, in fact--her computer was damaged in a recent move, and she is out
> of contact via e-mail even.
>
> Martin
>
That's a lame excuse, as every library has the Internet, as well as
community centres, etc. Judyth should be responding to critical
comments related to her book herself.
Pamela McElwain-Brown
My point is that the account of what occurred is garbled. I don't see how
a transcript would help, unless it showed the pre-med courses that Judyth
said she was auditing that semester at UF. (I have perused the emailed
copy of the transcript which does not show the undergrad courses. I don't
know what the supposed significance of "2 A.A.'s" is either. It looks to
me like one A.A. degree described on two lines. If the implication is that
one degree was a science degree, it would not be an "A.A". It would be an
Associate of Science, or something like that, and I don't even know if
such a degree is available.)
In addition, the way the passage reads, it looks as though the famed first
woman dean of women at UF, Marna (not Marion) Brady, committed fraud on
Judyth's behalf to give her passing grades for classes never attended.
If the book really wants to go there, it needs to lay a better foundation
rather than just tossing that out, imo.
In addition, I don't see how auditing 8 hours of pre-med classes
clandestinely would in any way give Judyth the knowledge needed to jump
into med school at Tulane in the fall. I have taken pre-med classes and
can assure you they are available to liberal arts majors, so don't know
what the secrecy was about. Also, comparative anatomy takes 8-12 hours a
week in the lab, plus classes, so that's just (literally) par for the
course.
At the least, this area of the book needs considerable grounding and
documenation as otherwise it just presents a stumbling block to the
reader.
Pamela
On 12 Aug 2006 13:09:36 -0400, Martin Shackelford
Pamela McElwain-Brown
>
>Martin Shackelford wrote:
>> No, in fact--her computer was damaged in a recent move, and she is out
>> of contact via e-mail even.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>
>That's a lame excuse, as every library has the Internet, as well as
>community centres, etc. Judyth should be responding to critical
>comments related to her book herself.
>
> - Peter R. Whitmey
Under normal circumstances, perhaps, Peter. However, in this case, Judyth
has hardly been given an open forum on aaj, in spite of the fact that a
Martin has done everything possible to attempt to create one. It seems to
me its up to Judyth to decide where she chooses to post when she is able.
Pamela
Dave Reitzes
If she refuses to respond to questions and criticism here, that is
certainly her right -- just as it's everyone else's right to draw
conclusions from such a course of action.
Of course, she's also got her own website, where she controls all the
action. She's never answered questions there, either.
Dave
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Martin,
Say, her computer was damaged in a recent move, you say? She still
seems to have managed to put together three different versions of her
website recently, in fairly short order. There was the "unauthorized"
book version, the "stolen" book version and now the poetry version.
Perhaps someone got her scanner off the lawn, eh?
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
"Newsgroup Commentator"
Martin Shackelford
Martin
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Martin,
Well, I seem to remember that you posted the information that her
computer was damaged on July 22 on the "LHO's Leafletting and Judyth"
thread. (Post # 67 in the thread if you're reading the Newsgroup using
Google).
Vince Palamara then posted that she had her "unauthorized" version blog
up on July 26 in a thread entitled "SHAME ON YOU, MARTIN: JUDYTH PANS
YOU BIG TIME".
Barb Junkkarinen then posted a link to the "stolen" version blog on
July 28 in a thread entitled "Holy cow...Judyth updates her blog. Is
she lying, Martin?".
In that same thread, other posters, including McAdams, reported that
the blog had reverted to poetry.
Now it doesn't take a genius to realize that something doesn't quite
square here, does it? Even a newsgroup commentator could point out the
discrepancies here.
Dave Reitzes
Martin Shackelford wrote:
> That was before the damage, genius.
>
> Martin
"Shackelford is an example of civility . . ." (Harrison Livingstone,
THE RADICAL RIGHT AND THE MURDER OF JFK, p. ix.)
Martin's civility seems to be evaporating as quickly as his
"documentation."
Dave
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Dave,
Thankfully Harry Livingstone doesn't bother with newsgroups, I
understand, so hopefully he will have missed this example of Martin's
"civility".
More worrying is Martin's haphazard account of Baker's damaged
computer, though. It hardly seems to square with the facts. In fact, it
is almost as implausible as Baker's account of the Trade Mart
leafletting, if not more so.
I do wonder why he hasn't bounced back with a pithy retort to put this
one to bed, don't you? The fiascos continue to mount...
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
"Newsgroup Commentator"