Just Like Oswald
Robert Harris
Oswald was not the only one to become obsessed with the story of FBI
informant, Herbert Philbrick,
On November 19, 2002, a man named Craig Neil Ogan Jr. was executed
for the murder of Houston police officer, James Boswell. At the time
of the crime, Ogen was working as an informant for the Drug
Enforcement Agency and became agitated when the officer apparently,
didn’t respond quickly enough to Ogan’s request for assistance. During
his trial, Ogan testified to his reason for becoming an informant, and
revealed an enlightening parallel between his life and that of Lee
Harvey Oswald. This is from the website of the prosecutor who
convicted him:
"Ogan said his life was literally rerouted by reading the book 'I Led
Three Lives'. It concerns a man who infiltrated Communist
organizations, and from his teens that's the spy status Ogan strived
to attain. On the witness stand, Ogan testified he tried for years to
get an undercover job with the CIA. All his 1988-89 efforts for the
DEA were aimed at getting him a job reference. "
This from an article in the *Village Voice*, by Robert Friedman,
Roy Bullock wanted to be a spy since he was a teenager in Indiana and
read "I Led Three Lives" Herbert Philbrick's Cold War saga of
penetrating the Communist Party for the FBI...
"I was fascinated with Herbert Philbrick 'Bullock recently told
federal investigators, ' and so I thought I would try to infiltrate
the Communist Party. In 1957, I went to the Sixth World Youth and
Student Festival in Moscow with the American delegation. I gave them,
the FBI, a full report on it when I returned, along with some photos I
took of some Soviet military vehicles.".
(unquote)
Bullock went on to spend two years as a spy for the FBI and later, the
Anti Defamation League, where his espionage got more than a little out
of hand, and he wound up getting himself arrested.
There is no record of how many others were similarly influenced, but
during that time, it has been said that some branches of the American
communist party contained more FBI informants than it did
communitsts:-)
Robert Harris
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
black...@aol.com
Certainly it was one of his favorite shows as a kid. How do you
conclude that he was "obsessed" (your word) by it?
jwrush
"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42d7eecf...@news20.forteinc.com...
You posted this already and we already commented about it.
Oswald became interested in the commie side of the TV show story. He was
handed a "Save the Rosenbergs" brochure by a Communist street speaker in
New York when he was a kid and he was strongly impressed by the speech since
it contained information about the Rosenberg kids. He later told Priscilla
Johnson that this was when he first began thinking about Communism and
Marxism, during this era in his life.
The Communists used to parade the Rosenberg kids around for the New York TV
and newsreel cameras back then, and whine about how the kids would soon be
orphans if the vicious fascist capitalist pigs of the government murdered
their parents. The Rosenberg kids had gone to school not too far from where
Oswald was staying with his brother. John J. Abt was on New York TV at that
time working cases for Communists who had been fired from their jobs. Read
Carl Bernstein's 1989 book "Loyalties." Little Carl grew up in a Communist
family in that era. Little Carl was one of the Communist kids whose parents
paraded in front of the White House in an attempt to draw sympathy for the
Rosenbergs and their two sons. All while Oswald was watching this stuff on
the news in New York. You see, the Communists played on the sympathy of the
parents and the kids of America in the early 1950s propaganda. Little Lee
saw this in the movie newsreels and on New York TV.
Also read "We Are Your Sons," written years later by the Rosenberg boys, and
see the part where their father told them that he first became interested in
communism when he was handed a brochure on the streets of New York when he
was just 15 years old. It was a "Free Tom Mooney" brochure. The Rosenberg
kids had gone to school not too far from where Oswald was living with his
brother. John J. Abt was on New York TV at that time working cases for
Communists who had been fired from their jobs under the Smith Act and under
various other laws. Read Abt's book, "Advocate and Activist: Memoirs of an
American Communist Lawyer." I think this is probably where he first heard
about John Abt.
Robert Harris
<black...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>Certainly it was one of his favorite shows as a kid. How do you
>conclude that he was "obsessed" (your word) by it?
Because that's what both his mother and brother said.
Robert Harris
>
Barb Junkkarinen
I'm saving this one ....
>
James Olmstead
a communist. There was a very large bases of supporters....from many
political groups and churches.
Nor do you have any idea of the content of this unknown
flyer. If you study the Rosenberg case by reading offical reports from
the various Congressional Committees you will be hard pressed to
show any "Save the Rosenberg" type flyers that would influence anyone
to become a communist. Several of these committee reports contain
samples of the flyers that were passed out in NYC.
Gus Hall's CPUSA made sure that all publicational flyers on the Rosenbergs
sponsered by the CPUSA did not contain material that could be used
by the FBI as subversive material.
Gus Hall btw was sent a membership in the N. O. FPFC by Lee.
jko
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
news:42d7...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
jwrush
"James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> You have no idea that the alledged individual passing out flyers was
> a communist. There was a very large bases of supporters....from many
> political groups and churches.
>
> Nor do you have any idea of the content of this unknown
> flyer. If you study the Rosenberg case by reading offical reports from
> the various Congressional Committees you will be hard pressed to
> show any "Save the Rosenberg" type flyers that would influence anyone
> to become a communist.
You can read about what he told to Priscilla Johnson when she interviewed
him in Russia.
James Olmstead
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
PJ's work during this period lacks a great deal of information
jko
>
>
>
John McAdams
wrote:
>You have no idea that the alledged individual passing out flyers was
>a communist. There was a very large bases of supporters....from many
>political groups and churches.
>
> Nor do you have any idea of the content of this unknown
>flyer. If you study the Rosenberg case by reading offical reports from
>the various Congressional Committees you will be hard pressed to
>show any "Save the Rosenberg" type flyers that would influence anyone
>to become a communist. Several of these committee reports contain
>samples of the flyers that were passed out in NYC.
>
>Gus Hall's CPUSA made sure that all publicational flyers on the Rosenbergs
>sponsered by the CPUSA did not contain material that could be used
>by the FBI as subversive material.
>
>
Are you actually saying that he lied to Priscilla Johnson?
Or that she just invented this?
I don't see any reason in the world to view this story as implausible.
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
>
>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:42d7eecf...@news20.forteinc.com...
>>
>
>The Communists used to parade the Rosenberg kids around for the New York TV
>and newsreel cameras back then, and whine about how the kids would soon be
>orphans if the vicious fascist capitalist pigs of the government murdered
>their parents. The Rosenberg kids had gone to school not too far from where
>Oswald was staying with his brother. John J. Abt was on New York TV at that
>time working cases for Communists who had been fired from their jobs. Read
>Carl Bernstein's 1989 book "Loyalties." Little Carl grew up in a Communist
>family in that era. Little Carl was one of the Communist kids whose parents
>paraded in front of the White House in an attempt to draw sympathy for the
>Rosenbergs and their two sons. All while Oswald was watching this stuff on
>the news in New York. You see, the Communists played on the sympathy of the
>parents and the kids of America in the early 1950s propaganda. Little Lee
>saw this in the movie newsreels and on New York TV.
>
>
>
>Also read "We Are Your Sons," written years later by the Rosenberg boys,
I remember seeing this reviewed in THE NEW REPUBLIC. Of course, that
journal wasn't entirely sympathetic to the boys, since the Rosenberg's
were indeed guilty.
>and
>see the part where their father told them that he first became interested in
>communism when he was handed a brochure on the streets of New York when he
>was just 15 years old. It was a "Free Tom Mooney" brochure.
Fascinating.
John McAdams
wrote:
If you are claiming (and I'm sure you are, since you are a LaFontaine
supporter) that this shows that Oswald was an FBI agent, you're wrong.
There is no doubt, however, that Lee lover spy games.
jwrush
"James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
> "jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
> news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>
>> "James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
>> news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>> You have no idea that the alledged individual passing out flyers was
>>> a communist. There was a very large bases of supporters....from many
>>> political groups and churches.
>>>
>>> Nor do you have any idea of the content of this unknown
>>> flyer. If you study the Rosenberg case by reading offical reports from
>>> the various Congressional Committees you will be hard pressed to
>>> show any "Save the Rosenberg" type flyers that would influence anyone
>>> to become a communist.
>>
>> You can read about what he told to Priscilla Johnson when she interviewed
>> him in Russia.
>
>
> PJ's work during this period lacks a great deal of information
>
> jko
I interviewed her two or three times over the years about this, and I've
seen her talk on TV about it a few times. She was on an ABC Nightline show
about Oswald's KGB file, talking about interviewing him in Russia. In this
particular case, nobody ever has enough information, and of course it's
frustrating. But I've never seen such a case where so many people have
been trying for so many years to reconstruct every day of the 24 years of
one man's life. It's just about impossible.
jwrush
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:42d9a29f...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
One of the best books about at era was Carl Bernstein's little-known 1989
book "Loyalties". It is about his life as a kid growing up in a Communist
family during the era in which the Rosenbergs were executed. Carl in 1953
was a kid a little younger than Oswald. He talked about how much this
story and all the stories about the Rosenberg kids were on the news back
then. Back in those days, New York and DC had local news film on TV, while
most other American cities did not. Also, I remember a lot of Rosenberg
and Communist "spy" stories in the movie theater newsreels back then.
I remember the night the Rosenbergs were executed. My parents and I were
driving to my grandparents house up in north Mississippi, from Mobile
Alabama, so I was up late that night and we listened to the whole story on
the car radio. There were news updates during the commercial breaks all
that night on most of the radio network comedy and drama programs. The
news people made it seem like a last minute reprieve might come in for the
Rosenbergs, but it didn't. My dad explained what the whole case was about.
1953 was also the year of the big Civil Defense "evacuation" drives. The
entire city of Mobile evacuated in a couple of hours. The city put up air
raid sirens on tall towers. They tested them every day at noon, and people
got used to setting their watches by them. That's the year all the schools
taught us to "duck and cover". My dad said the Rosenbergs were partly
responsible for that, so I didn't grow up having any sympathy for Soviet
spies.
But Oswald saw a completely different side of the story, since he was in
New York when the CP was parading the poor little Rosenberg kids before
the TV and newsreel cameras. They had gone to school not too far from
where Oswald lived. Back in the '80s I looked up Oswald's address and the
Rosenberg boy's school address on a New York map. They weren't too far
apart.
Carl Bernstein saw the other side of it too. He said his parents told him
that Eisenhower and Nixon were going to send federal agents to pick them
up and have them executed too, just like the Rosenbergs. So, while Carl
was afraid of the feds up in DC, I was afraid of the danged Russian
bombers down in Mobile. But we were lucky in Mobile. Our teachers told us
we would have about a 4-hour warning, because the Russian bombers would
destroy New York and Washington before they could get all the way down to
Mobile, so we had time to evacuate.
I often wonder how Oswald would have turned out had he never lived in New
York as a kid, in that particular era.
Robert Harris
McAdams) wrote:
>On 16 Jul 2005 11:51:26 -0400, "James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com>
>wrote:
>
>>You have no idea that the alledged individual passing out flyers was
>>a communist. There was a very large bases of supporters....from many
>>political groups and churches.
>>
>> Nor do you have any idea of the content of this unknown
>>flyer. If you study the Rosenberg case by reading offical reports from
>>the various Congressional Committees you will be hard pressed to
>>show any "Save the Rosenberg" type flyers that would influence anyone
>>to become a communist. Several of these committee reports contain
>>samples of the flyers that were passed out in NYC.
>>
>>Gus Hall's CPUSA made sure that all publicational flyers on the Rosenbergs
>>sponsered by the CPUSA did not contain material that could be used
>>by the FBI as subversive material.
>>
>>
>
>Are you actually saying that he lied to Priscilla Johnson?
ROFLMAO!!
You have made a career out of calling Oswald a liar, so why do you
pretend to be shocked, that he really was?
Of course Oswald lied to Johnson, just like he lied to a zillion other
people.
You know, I almost had some doubts earlier today, as I was reading
Oswald's very intense letter to his brother, from Russia, circa 1959.
That was the one in which he said he would kill "any American" if a war
ever broke out, and went on and on about how superior communism was, and
that the U.S. was a dieing country.
I was starting to think that just maybe, he really was a commist, until I
got almost to the end, where he urged Robert to pass the letter on to a
reporter:-)
I have to admit that this has been an incredibly good forty years of PR
work, .john. Oswald's motives here are totally transparent. He just was
not a very good liar, or actor. And yet, with something this obvious under
all of our noses, most of us have NEVER understood what Oswald's own
mother understood.
James Olmstead
published and passed out on the streets of NYC that Oswald could
have been handed that would infuence him to become a communist,
marxist or later a "defector".
If you know of such flyer please post a link...or if possible post the
image. Examples of the NYC flyers passed out were collected by a
special NYC police unit as well as the FBI. They are published in
several Congressional records of committee hearings, the NYC
police material is also available through DORIS.
Now I believe your side considers Lee a "liar" in just about everything
he says. PJ would have no need to invent this "lie" however her
interview was one with conflict surrounding the event.
jko
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:42d9a233...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James Olmstead
I've studied her as well and its not always about Lee....Gus Hall made
his start here in my hometown during the 1937 "Little Steel Strike" so
I've spent a great deal of time on him I've also followed the Rosenberg
case very close. These events and people may have influenced Lee
but there is serious doubt that a "flyer" as discribed exsisted...flyers
on saving the Rosenbergs yes....but not one that would lead Lee down
the path to the USSR....there has to be more to it.
You do realize that the most damaging info to the US interest given to the
Soviets by Rosenberg concerned "radar".
jko
Martha
Hi John
Have you ever read Priscilla's testimony to the WC? (11 H 444)
"Evasive" is what I think she observed about Oswald in her interview - that
is, her senses told her that something was not quite right. i.e. Lee had
left a loop-hole for his return to USA.
Martha
Russ Burr
And you believe her. She was a nut case, imo.
Russ
Russ Burr
Perhaps he would have had a different take on the world. But, I wonder
how he'd of fared without his mother, ie. with someone else that didn't
have his mothers personality.
Russ
>
>
>
>
jwrush
> but there is serious doubt that a "flyer" as discribed exsisted...flyers
> on saving the Rosenbergs yes....but not one that would lead Lee down
> the path to the USSR....there has to be more to it.
I've explained the more to it. I think the flyer marked just a turning point
in time. What the speaker said was probably more important than the flyer.
The flyer and the speaker caused him to start paying more attention to the
stories on the news about the Rosenbergs and their kids.
jwrush
> published and passed out on the streets of NYC that Oswald could
> have been handed that would infuence him to become a communist,
> marxist or later a "defector".
This was done over several months in the New York and Washington area. Maybe
you are too young to remember it. I remember seeing newsreel reports about
the big "Save the Rosenberg" rallies in New York and the street speakers
when I was a kid. Read Carl Berstein's book about it.
James Olmstead
Rush: I far to old to be too young...I spent the summers of 53-54 in NYC and
several vactions with family there over the years growing up in the 50's.
The
NYT's has microfilm on all such rallies, I have a collection of those
articles
concerning the Rosenbergs. Berstein's book is not the only source of info
I like USG reports....I believe you can download the FBI file from their
website. The point is you can't provide a "flyer" that falls into Oswald's
story.
jko
>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
No, I was not aware of the idea that radar information was the most
important. Even more important than the atomic bomb? What in particular
about radar did they give the Russians that the US had not already
officially given them when the US was their ally in WWII?
> jko
>
>
>
>
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
jwrush
I don't know which "flyer" it was. I guess he eventually threw it away. I
can't even provide the "flyers" Oswald gave me on Aug 16, 1963. I threw them
away that same day. But it wasn't the communist "flyer" that converted
Oswald, it was the entire Rosenberg story and the continuous communist
propaganda of that era. It converted a lot of kids who eventually became the
"new left" Marxists of the late 1960s. There were hundreds of thousands of
them running around blowing up buildings and rioting in cities and on
college campuses by 1967. Oswald was among the first of them. It's like the
way Julius Rosenberg was influenced by the anarchist pamphlet and speeches
about Tom Mooney, back when Rosenberg was 15 and living in New York. The
anarchists were trying to get Mooney freed, just as the communists were
trying to keep the Rosenbergs from being executed. Communist propaganda of
every era breeds little Lee Oswalds and little Julius Rosenbergs of every
era.
James Olmstead
Rush everyone notices what you snip and what you answer....now you add a
"speaker" to the mix missing the entire consideration of "radar" and giving
the
Soviets info.
jko
>
>
jwrush
Yeah, the speaker or someone with the speaker gave him the leaflet. The
same thing that happened to the 15 year old Rosenberg boy back in the
1920s.
Radar? I don't think Lee knew much about "radar" back in 1953.
They used to give speeches on the sidewalks of New York, and in the parks,
and some of the would hold signs like this:
And others would give out leaflets.
The picture in the link above looks like it was taken in some train
station.
tomnln
Ya really can't Blame him....
He keeps gettin away with it.
"James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
news:42da...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
John Hunt
>
> "jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
> news:42da...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>
>> "James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
>> news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>> These events and people may have influenced Lee
>>> but there is serious doubt that a "flyer" as discribed exsisted...flyers
>>> on saving the Rosenbergs yes....but not one that would lead Lee down
>>> the path to the USSR....there has to be more to it.
>>
>> I've explained the more to it. I think the flyer marked just a turning
>> point in time. What the speaker said was probably more important than the
>> flyer. The flyer and the speaker caused him to start paying more
>> attention to the stories on the news about the Rosenbergs and their kids.
>
> Rush everyone notices what you snip and what you answer
Jim,
Rush probably bamboozled us hicks with his Snipper, but I can't be
sure,...I was busy scratching my crotch 'n spittin', so I mighte' missed
it.
John Hunt
James Olmstead
"Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
news:opxCe.2833$Zx3.2821@trndny05...>> news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>
>>>"James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
>>>news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>>
>>>>"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>"James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>>>>
>> but there is serious doubt that a "flyer" as discribed exsisted...flyers
>> on saving the Rosenbergs yes....but not one that would lead Lee down
>> the path to the USSR....there has to be more to it.
>>
>> the Soviets by Rosenberg concerned "radar".
>>
>
> No, I was not aware of the idea that radar information was the most
> important. Even more important than the atomic bomb? What in particular
> about radar did they give the Russians that the US had not already
> officially given them when the US was their ally in WWII?
At the time they were allied with Hitler....when he attacked they became
our allies....since 1939 everyone was trying to get our radar...Enterprise
was the first ship to have it equipt. The Soviets were well into their
own development of atomic research and development.....Rosenberg only
provided a small element...however according to KGB officals talking about
the Rosenbergs...the radar stuff was far more valuable and practical.
Rosenberg wasa civilian engineer with the Army Signal Corps until 1945,
starting in 1939...he was dismissed because of his membership in the CP.
The company they formed was Radar Fabric's.
jko
James Olmstead
James Olmstead
Rush....unless you were standing beside Oswald there is no way in hell you
can make any claim to a "speaker". Please keep to reality.
> Radar? I don't think Lee knew much about "radar" back in 1953.
Hello....he did in 1956-1959 again keep to the facts of this case.
>
> They used to give speeches on the sidewalks of New York, and in the parks,
> and some of the would hold signs like this:
>
> http://tinypic.com/8zfked.jpg
>
> And others would give out leaflets.
>
But you can not make any claim to how Oswald received this "flyer" it is not
even
known that it happened. There is no evidence that he did in fact receive
any flyer.
jko
James Olmstead
"John Hunt" <johnh...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> "James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
> news:42da...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>
>> "jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
>> news:42da...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>>
>>> "James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
>>> news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>>> These events and people may have influenced Lee
>>>> but there is serious doubt that a "flyer" as discribed
>>>> exsisted...flyers
>>>> on saving the Rosenbergs yes....but not one that would lead Lee down
>>>> the path to the USSR....there has to be more to it.
>>>
>>> I've explained the more to it. I think the flyer marked just a turning
>>> point in time. What the speaker said was probably more important than
>>> the flyer. The flyer and the speaker caused him to start paying more
>>> attention to the stories on the news about the Rosenbergs and their
>>> kids.
>>
>> Rush everyone notices what you snip and what you answer
>
>
> Jim,
>
>
> Rush probably bamboozled us hicks with his Snipper, but I can't be
> sure,...I was busy scratching my crotch 'n spittin', so I mighte' missed
> it.
>
>
> John Hunt
It's funny really....I've avoided the various threads as much as possible
the last couple of
months but I have managed to sober up enough to see the extent that he will
go to and
it's been a hoot addressing some of his comments.
BTW great photos on the bag.....I'm impressed
jko
jwrush
We were talking about Oswald in New York in 1953. I don't think he knew much
about radar then.
>
> Hello....he did in 1956-1959 again keep to the facts of this case.
>
>>
>> They used to give speeches on the sidewalks of New York, and in the
>> parks, and some of the would hold signs like this:
>>
>> http://tinypic.com/8zfked.jpg
>>
>> And others would give out leaflets.
>>
>
> But you can not make any claim to how Oswald received this "flyer" it is
> not even
> known that it happened. There is no evidence that he did in fact receive
> any flyer.
>
This is the story he told Priscilla Johnson when they were in Moscow, and
that he first became interested in Marxism (communism) when he was a kid in
New York.
James Olmstead
Rush: The conversation is not limited only to 1953....it relates just as
well to 1959
with the claim made to PJM. Oswald was a trained radar operator in 1959 he
knew about radar.....get a grip on things. He offered material to the
Soviets in the
same manner as Rosenberg.
>>
>> Hello....he did in 1956-1959 again keep to the facts of this case.
>>
>>>
>>> They used to give speeches on the sidewalks of New York, and in the
>>> parks, and some of the would hold signs like this:
>>>
>>> http://tinypic.com/8zfked.jpg
>>>
>>> And others would give out leaflets.
>>>
>>
>> But you can not make any claim to how Oswald received this "flyer" it is
>> not even
>> known that it happened. There is no evidence that he did in fact receive
>> any flyer.
>>
>
> This is the story he told Priscilla Johnson when they were in Moscow, and
> that he first became interested in Marxism (communism) when he was a kid
> in New York.
>
But it relates to this time period.....please do not avoid the topic and
it's related
considerations....otherwise discussion is pointless.
jko
>
>
>
jwrush
She asked him when he first became interested in this "Marxist" stuff and
he told her about the New York speaker and brochure of 1953.
If you want to change the subject and talk about his life in 1959, then
why don't you start a new thread about it?
Anthony Marsh
You need to get me up to speed on this radar thing. Someone said that it
was more important than the secrets on the atomic bomb. Yet WC defenders
claim that the Russians already knew everything they needed to know about
radar so they weren't interesting in Oswald's offer.
>
>
>>>Hello....he did in 1956-1959 again keep to the facts of this case.
>>>
>>>
>>>>They used to give speeches on the sidewalks of New York, and in the
>>>>parks, and some of the would hold signs like this:
>>>>
>>>>http://tinypic.com/8zfked.jpg
>>>>
>>>>And others would give out leaflets.
>>>>
>>>
>>>But you can not make any claim to how Oswald received this "flyer" it is
>>>not even
>>>known that it happened. There is no evidence that he did in fact receive
>>>any flyer.
>>>
>>
>>This is the story he told Priscilla Johnson when they were in Moscow, and
>>that he first became interested in Marxism (communism) when he was a kid
>>in New York.
>>
>
>
> But it relates to this time period.....please do not avoid the topic and
> it's related
> considerations....otherwise discussion is pointless.
>
> jko
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
Sure, at what time? Were the Germans giving the Russians radar? I want
to learn more about this.
Just an aside, but in my opinion just signing a non-aggression pact does
not make them allies in the sense that the US and Great Britain were
allies with the Russians. The non-aggression pact allowed both of them
to agree to stay out of each other's way when invading other countries,
but it did not guarantee the same type of cooperation as the US and
Britain did.
> our allies....since 1939 everyone was trying to get our radar...Enterprise
Yes, but we were not the only ones developing radar.
> was the first ship to have it equipt. The Soviets were well into their
> own development of atomic research and development.....Rosenberg only
> provided a small element...however according to KGB officals talking about
> the Rosenbergs...the radar stuff was far more valuable and practical.
>
This is what I want to know more about. Why the Soviets thought that
radar information was more important than the atomic bomb. Exactly what
radar information did the Rosenbergs provide and where did they get it
from? Why would there be any reason to keep this stuff secret today? Is
radar no more advanced than in 1953? Are these still Ultra?
> Rosenberg wasa civilian engineer with the Army Signal Corps until 1945,
> starting in 1939...he was dismissed because of his membership in the CP.
> The company they formed was Radar Fabric's.
>
> jko
>
>
Robert Harris
Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a "nutcase", aren't they?
BTW, do you agree with professor mcadams who claims that Mr. and Mrs.
Connally lied about hearing Jackie say, "I have my husband's brains in
my hand.", because they were "buffs"??
Last question Russell - why are you evading my questions?
James Olmstead
Tony: The KGB agent in charge of the Rosenbergs disclosed several years ago
that the Rosenberg info on radar was far more valuable to the Soviets then
the
material relating to the material provided by Greenglass and Sobell.
I know that Giak Ovakimian (AMTORG) was the NYC resident NKVD's agent that
recruited
the Rosenbergs I don't know however if he was the KGB agent that informed
the
US public about the Radar info.
The USG files concerning "all of" the compromised research is still sealed
but Julius's code
name was Antenna and Ethels was Liberal in the Verona cables....I don't have
any of
my Rosenberg material on this computer so I can't provide more at this time.
The WC defenders will go to great extent to avoid the legal issues
concerning Oswald's
offer to the Soviets....however they did send him to work in the same
factory that produced
the Soviets Radar TV screens....The US btw had just developed a new and
improved TV
tube used in military radar systems.
jko
James Olmstead
telling the story in 1959 relates to 1953.....you can't seperate the two
incidents since they are related.
jko
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
news:42dc...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James Olmstead
Tony: As we were finishing installing the first radar system created in the
U.S. Enterprise
14 Nazi spys were arrested in the U.S. for trying to still the system. The
Germans did
not have it...nor did the Soviets...we gave it to England. This was in 1939
the arrest
of the 14 spys were the foundation for a filmscript I developed.
> Just an aside, but in my opinion just signing a non-aggression pact does
> not make them allies in the sense that the US and Great Britain were
> allies with the Russians.
The point is we were allied with GB and Germany and Russia were allied even
though we were not in the war offically until after Pearl Harbor. There was
a
great deal of concern over the Soviets since 1937....we were not sharing
things
with them regardless of the non agression pact.....after Hitler invaded
things
changed but we were not giving them military research.....then we entered
the cold war because Russia had the largest standing army in the world and
we were still not giving them information.
The non-aggression pact allowed both of them
> to agree to stay out of each other's way when invading other countries,
> but it did not guarantee the same type of cooperation as the US and
> Britain did.
>
>> our allies....since 1939 everyone was trying to get our
>> radar...Enterprise
>
> Yes, but we were not the only ones developing radar.
>
>> was the first ship to have it equipt. The Soviets were well into their
>> own development of atomic research and development.....Rosenberg only
>> provided a small element...however according to KGB officals talking
>> about the Rosenbergs...the radar stuff was far more valuable and
>> practical.
>>
>
> This is what I want to know more about. Why the Soviets thought that radar
> information was more important than the atomic bomb. Exactly what radar
> information did the Rosenbergs provide and where did they get it from? Why
> would there be any reason to keep this stuff secret today? Is radar no
> more advanced than in 1953? Are these still Ultra?
The radar information was practical research....of far more value then a
floorplan
of Los Alamos or a rough sketch of Fat Man.....no technical data was given
by Greenglass, that was more valuable then the radar info provided by
Rosenberg.
You have to really look into the case....a simple discussion will not
provide you
with what information you might want to learn from me. As mentioned in
another post those files could be considered beyong "Ultra".....they are not
available by FOIA
jko
Robert Harris
>
>"James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
>news:42da...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>
>> "jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
>> news:42da...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>>
>>> "James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
>>> news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>>> These events and people may have influenced Lee
>>>> but there is serious doubt that a "flyer" as discribed exsisted...flyers
>>>> on saving the Rosenbergs yes....but not one that would lead Lee down
>>>> the path to the USSR....there has to be more to it.
>>>
>>> I've explained the more to it. I think the flyer marked just a turning
>>> point in time. What the speaker said was probably more important than the
>>> flyer. The flyer and the speaker caused him to start paying more
>>> attention to the stories on the news about the Rosenbergs and their kids.
>>
>> Rush everyone notices what you snip and what you answer....now you add a
>> "speaker" to the mix missing the entire consideration of "radar" and
>> giving the
>> Soviets info.
>>
>> jko
>
>Yeah, the speaker or someone with the speaker gave him the leaflet. The
>same thing that happened to the 15 year old Rosenberg boy back in the
>1920s.
What speaker are you refering to?
And would you please document your claim that Oswald was influenced to
become a communist, by a speaker in New York, who handed him a
leaflet?
Robert Harris
>
>Radar? I don't think Lee knew much about "radar" back in 1953.
>
>They used to give speeches on the sidewalks of New York, and in the parks,
>and some of the would hold signs like this:
>
>http://tinypic.com/8zfked.jpg
>
>And others would give out leaflets.
>
>The picture in the link above looks like it was taken in some train
>station.
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
Anthony Marsh
Sure, that's what he said. What I'd like to know is why anyone would
come to that conclusion.
Anthony Marsh
You seem to be confirming my point. The Germans did not give the
Russians radar when they were allies. But the US did give the Russians
radar when they were our ally.
>
>
>>Just an aside, but in my opinion just signing a non-aggression pact does
>>not make them allies in the sense that the US and Great Britain were
>>allies with the Russians.
>
>
> The point is we were allied with GB and Germany and Russia were allied even
> though we were not in the war offically until after Pearl Harbor. There was
> a
> great deal of concern over the Soviets since 1937....we were not sharing
> things
> with them regardless of the non agression pact.....after Hitler invaded
> things
We certainly gave the Russians billions of dollars in war materiel once
they became our ally.
> changed but we were not giving them military research.....then we entered
> the cold war because Russia had the largest standing army in the world and
> we were still not giving them information.
>
Of course not after the war was over. We turned our backs on many of our
allies.
> The non-aggression pact allowed both of them
>
>>to agree to stay out of each other's way when invading other countries,
>>but it did not guarantee the same type of cooperation as the US and
>>Britain did.
>>
>>
>>>our allies....since 1939 everyone was trying to get our
>>>radar...Enterprise
>>
>>Yes, but we were not the only ones developing radar.
>>
>>
>>>was the first ship to have it equipt. The Soviets were well into their
>>>own development of atomic research and development.....Rosenberg only
>>>provided a small element...however according to KGB officals talking
>>>about the Rosenbergs...the radar stuff was far more valuable and
>>>practical.
>>>
>>
>>This is what I want to know more about. Why the Soviets thought that radar
>>information was more important than the atomic bomb. Exactly what radar
>>information did the Rosenbergs provide and where did they get it from? Why
>>would there be any reason to keep this stuff secret today? Is radar no
>>more advanced than in 1953? Are these still Ultra?
>
>
> The radar information was practical research....of far more value then a
> floorplan
> of Los Alamos or a rough sketch of Fat Man.....no technical data was given
> by Greenglass, that was more valuable then the radar info provided by
> Rosenberg.
>
Interesting. So that is the type of information that Greenglass
provided? Just floorplans and a rough sketch of Fat Man?
James Olmstead
We did NOT give the Soviet radar info data was stolen. Thousands
of pages of documents from Ft. Momouth were photographed by
the Rosenberg ring. The Nazi tried in 1939 but were caught.
Other members of the Spy ring provide much more but Rosenberg
did not actually "get" the stuff....just part of the cell. I believe
Greenglass was not even a party member. There was also material
on a "lens" and it's use and a "fuse"....but not related to the A bomb.
jko
Anthony Marsh
Let me get this straight. You are claiming that during WWII the US did
not give the Russians any radar equipment at all?
James Olmstead
I have never been able to confirm that we provided them with Radar
information
during WWII. If you can correct me on that fine....but one has to consider
the
rapid advancements made during the 50's that was not shared but Oswald may
have passed on. That's the major consideration behind his statements about
the
Rosenbergs in 1959 and his offer to provide them with info he had learn
while
in the MC.
jko
James Olmstead
> to that conclusion.
What reason would the KGB have to lie about it in the 90's concerning the
Rosenbergs?
By 1948 they had their own system, the Rosenberg case was closed and they
were
providing insight into the value of the information provided by them.
Anthony Marsh
I am not sure that I am alleging that it is an official KGB project to
lie. I might suggest that some KGB agents who are defecting find it
helpful to make up stories to please their new masters.
> By 1948 they had their own system, the Rosenberg case was closed and they
> were
> providing insight into the value of the information provided by them.
>
What I asked has no bearing on whether the information is truthful or not.
I am just surprised that someone thinks that radar is more important than
an atomic bomb. And suspicious that the Russians really learned anything
new about radar that the US wasn't already giving them during WWII.
greg
"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5g3hd11v6gtnckjau...@4ax.com...
> On 15 Jul 2005 12:30:55 -0400, "black...@aol.com"
> <black...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Certainly it was one of his favorite shows as a kid. How do you
>>conclude that he was "obsessed" (your word) by it?
>
> Because that's what both his mother and brother said.
His brother was wrong. Here is what he told Frontline:
"Lee's fantasy life, to me, became apparent in the 1948, 1949, 1950 period.
Living in Fort Worth, TV was making its debut. We had an old
black-and-white. He seemed to really get involved with it and hang onto it
after the programs were over. John and I would be off doing other things. "I
Led Three Lives" -- he became really engrossed in that particular TV show,
and he was still watching it when I left to go in the Marine Corps in 1952."
That is impossible. The show debuted on Oct 10, 1953.
http://aa.1asphost.com/CTVA/US/Spy/ILedThreeLives.htm
greg
> Robert Harris
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
greg
>>
>> Oswald was not the only one to become obsessed with the story of FBI
>> informant, Herbert Philbrick,
>> On November 19, 2002, a man named Craig Neil Ogan Jr. was executed
>> for the murder of Houston police officer, James Boswell. At the time
>> of the crime, Ogen was working as an informant for the Drug
>> Enforcement Agency and became agitated when the officer apparently,
>> didn't respond quickly enough to Ogan's request for assistance. During
>> his trial, Ogan testified to his reason for becoming an informant, and
>> revealed an enlightening parallel between his life and that of Lee
>> Harvey Oswald. This is from the website of the prosecutor who
>> convicted him:
>>
>> "Ogan said his life was literally rerouted by reading the book 'I Led
>> Three Lives'. It concerns a man who infiltrated Communist
>> organizations, and from his teens that's the spy status Ogan strived
>> to attain. On the witness stand, Ogan testified he tried for years to
>> get an undercover job with the CIA. All his 1988-89 efforts for the
>> DEA were aimed at getting him a job reference. "
>>
>>
>> This from an article in the *Village Voice*, by Robert Friedman,
>>
>> Roy Bullock wanted to be a spy since he was a teenager in Indiana and
>> read "I Led Three Lives" Herbert Philbrick's Cold War saga of
>> penetrating the Communist Party for the FBI...
>>
>> "I was fascinated with Herbert Philbrick 'Bullock recently told
>> federal investigators, ' and so I thought I would try to infiltrate
>> the Communist Party. In 1957, I went to the Sixth World Youth and
>> Student Festival in Moscow with the American delegation. I gave them,
>> the FBI, a full report on it when I returned, along with some photos I
>> took of some Soviet military vehicles.".
>>
>> (unquote)
>>
>> Bullock went on to spend two years as a spy for the FBI and later, the
>> Anti Defamation League, where his espionage got more than a little out
>> of hand, and he wound up getting himself arrested.
>>
>> There is no record of how many others were similarly influenced, but
>> during that time, it has been said that some branches of the American
>> communist party contained more FBI informants than it did
>> communitsts:-)
>>
>
> You posted this already and we already commented about it.
>
>
>
> Oswald became interested in the commie side of the TV show story. He was
> handed a "Save the Rosenbergs" brochure by a Communist street speaker in
> New York when he was a kid and he was strongly impressed by the speech
> since it contained information about the Rosenberg kids.
Huh? Can I have a cite for that, please.
The Rosenbergs were executed on July 19, 1953. Oswald spent from Apr 16,
1953 to May 7 at Youth House.
This leaves period of August 1952 until Apr 15, 1953 and May 8 to July 18,
1953 as the only windows of opportunity for any such brochure to be handed
over by a little old lasy, or anyone else. Thse periods are further reduced
by days in court, days in school, days in welfare agencies, 2 weeks being
shown around the city by John Pic and possibly 10 days showing Robert around
the city (Robert could not recall if he visited his mother and Lee in July
or August of that year).
And why o why would anyone campaigning to save the lives of two people on
death row bother handing over a brochure to a 13 year old kid? What could
Lee do ... write his Congressman?
He later told Priscilla
> Johnson that this was when he first began thinking about Communism and
> Marxism, during this era in his life.
He also said he was 15 when he started thinking about Communism. At the time
the Rosenbergs were executed, Lee was 13. If you want to go with what he
told Johnson, then someone was campaigning to save the Rosenbergs 2 years
after they died.
> The Communists used to parade the Rosenberg kids around for the New York
> TV and newsreel cameras back then, and whine about how the kids would soon
> be orphans if the vicious fascist capitalist pigs of the government
> murdered their parents. The Rosenberg kids had gone to school not too far
> from where Oswald was staying with his brother. John J. Abt was on New
> York TV at that time working cases for Communists who had been fired from
> their jobs. Read Carl Bernstein's 1989 book "Loyalties." Little Carl grew
> up in a Communist family in that era. Little Carl was one of the Communist
> kids whose parents paraded in front of the White House in an attempt to
> draw sympathy for the Rosenbergs and their two sons. All while Oswald was
> watching this stuff on the news in New York. You see, the Communists
> played on the sympathy of the parents and the kids of America in the early
> 1950s propaganda. Little Lee saw this in the movie newsreels and on New
> York TV.
Oh? And he told all this to Priscilla, as well? Cite please.
> Also read "We Are Your Sons," written years later by the Rosenberg boys,
> and see the part where their father told them that he first became
> interested in communism when he was handed a brochure on the streets of
> New York when he was just 15 years old. It was a "Free Tom Mooney"
> brochure. The Rosenberg kids had gone to school not too far from where
> Oswald was living with his brother. John J. Abt was on New York TV at that
> time working cases for Communists who had been fired from their jobs under
> the Smith Act and under various other laws. Read Abt's book, "Advocate and
> Activist: Memoirs of an American Communist Lawyer." I think this is
> probably where he first heard about John Abt.
Or from Ruth Paine. Abt's wife was on the national board of the American
Friends Service Committee - a committee Ruth had worked closely with on
student exchange programs.
And it WAS Ruth Paine he turned to to get in touch with Abt...
greg
Rockett Crawford
"greg" <magicREM...@octa4.net.au> wrote in message
news:42e0...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Yes, obviously Robert was confused about the years. But
Lee Oswald didn't join the marines until 1956, leaving plenty of
time for him to watch "I Led Three Lives" and I'm sure Robert
was in touch with him during those years even after leaving for
the Marines himself.
Rockett Crawford
(note: all my posts are now crossposted to alt.assassination.jfk.uncensored
see that newsgroup for replies if they don't show up in a timely manner in
a.a.jfk)
JFK Assassination Photo Resource (under construction)
http://capella.haela.com/jfkapr.htm
Anthony Marsh
And of course the WC defenders just accept whatever any witness says as
long as it makes Lee Harvey Oswald look bad, even if it is impossible.
>
>>Robert Harris
greg
"Rockett Crawford" <cap...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:11e278l...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "greg" <magicREM...@octa4.net.au> wrote in message
> news:42e0...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>
>> "Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:5g3hd11v6gtnckjau...@4ax.com...
>> > On 15 Jul 2005 12:30:55 -0400, "black...@aol.com"
>> > <black...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Certainly it was one of his favorite shows as a kid. How do you
>> >>conclude that he was "obsessed" (your word) by it?
>> >
>> > Because that's what both his mother and brother said.
>>
>> His brother was wrong. Here is what he told Frontline:
>>
>> "Lee's fantasy life, to me, became apparent in the 1948, 1949, 1950
> period.
>> Living in Fort Worth, TV was making its debut. We had an old
>> black-and-white. He seemed to really get involved with it and hang onto
>> it
>> after the programs were over. John and I would be off doing other things.
> "I
>> Led Three Lives" -- he became really engrossed in that particular TV
>> show,
>> and he was still watching it when I left to go in the Marine Corps in
> 1952."
>>
>> That is impossible. The show debuted on Oct 10, 1953.
>> http://aa.1asphost.com/CTVA/US/Spy/ILedThreeLives.htm
>
> Yes, obviously Robert was confused about the years.
Well, it goes a bit deeper than that, doesn't Rockett?
He also "confused" where Lee watched it. I mean, he was pretty specific,
wasn't he? "...he [Lee] was still watching it [I Led Three Lives] when I
left to go in the Marine Corps in 1952."
The ONLY time Robert could have known from personal experience that Lee ever
even saw ONE episode was when he visited his mother and brother for 10 days
in NYC. He could not recall whether this was in July or August of 1953. Did
they ever see each other again between then and Thanksgiving, 1962?
Here's another clue: Robert never mention Lee being influenced this show
during his WC testimony. Robert didn't, because he didn't - couldn't know
that. However, his mother did - and it was her testimony that must have been
his source - whether he read it himself, or was told about it.
Marguerite had mentioned it in the context of trying to explain all the
reasons why she believed her son was an agent of the government. Robert
was using Marguerite's evidence to try and show Lee was living in a fantasy
world.
At this point, we might do well to examine the other reasons Marguerite
believed her son was agent:
"Now, we are at the Civil Air Patrol. And that is why Lee went to the Marine
Corps, is because of the Civil Air Patrol. He wasn't in the Civil Air Patrol
long." NOT because he was following in Robert's footsteps, but because he
was encouraged to join by someone in the CAP.
"I have said that a Marine recruiting officer came to my home, and that Lee
then continued reading Robert's manual by heart, and started reading
communist literature. He is preparing himself to go into the Marine
service--at age 17--this year before he actually joined the service. I am
saying he is already preparing himself." In response to eing asked if
reading the manual AND Communist literature was in preparation for becoming
an agent, Marguerite responded, "Yes, I think with the influence of this
recruiting officer." Rankin then hammered away with more questions about
whether she really thought the "recruiting officer" was behind Lee's sudden
fascination with Red literature. Marguerite stood firm.
Now before you starting howling, let me point out that Oswald told Miss
Prissy in Russia that he commenced studying Communism when he was 15. How
old was Lee when he joined the CAP? Why, I do believe the record shows he
was 15.
Who in CAP in that part of the world was known for encouraging boys to join
the Armed Services? David Ferrie.
Who in CAP in that part of the world was known to misrepresent himself at
various times as a doctor or a priest? David Ferrie. So would he have any
qualms about impersonating a Marine Recruitment Officer? I doubt it.
But
> Lee Oswald didn't join the marines until 1956, leaving plenty of
> time for him to watch "I Led Three Lives"
Yep. Just not with Robert.
and I'm sure Robert
> was in touch with him during those years even after leaving for
> the Marines himself.
Then you should be able to produce the evidence for those contacts -- even
better if they include discussion on "I led Three Lives".
greg
Robert Harris
wrote:
Sigh....
Yes, he got the dates wrong.
That doesn't change the fact that he confirmed LHO's obsession with
the program.
Robert Harris
>
>
>
>> Robert Harris
Robert Harris
wrote:
I am no expert on Robert Oswald. 10 years ago, I would have cheerfully
blown my day, trying to figure out how often he came home on leave,
but not anymore.
I do know however, that at the very least, he came home in 1956.
I find it hard to believe though, that he did not come home from time
to time during those three years, and also stayed in touch via letters
and phone calls - to both his mother and Lee. There is just no reason
to imagine that he was not aware of Lee's obsession with that
television show.
This was a pretty small family after all, and Marguerite only had one
kid at home to talk about.
>
>Here's another clue: Robert never mention Lee being influenced this show
>during his WC testimony.
Obviously, he didn't think it was very important. He also didn't
mention the schools Lee attended or a hundred other things.
Greg, I see no reason whatsoever to presume that Robert should be
unaware of Lee's obsession with this program. Nor do I see anything
particularly damning in his claim that this 13-15 year old kid was
obsessed with a "spy" program - just like a zillion other kids his
age.
There is just no reason at all, that Robert needed to lie about this.
I can certainly buy the notion that Ferrie might have influenced LHO,
but there is no reason on earth that he would have needed to
impersonate a Marine recruiter. He could certainly, have exerted all
the influence he wanted to, on Lee and his mother, as a CAP commander.
Robert Harris
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
Anthony Marsh
How rude. Please don't ask a WC defender to cite for anything.
> The Rosenbergs were executed on July 19, 1953. Oswald spent from Apr 16,
> 1953 to May 7 at Youth House.
>
> This leaves period of August 1952 until Apr 15, 1953 and May 8 to July 18,
> 1953 as the only windows of opportunity for any such brochure to be handed
> over by a little old lasy, or anyone else. Thse periods are further reduced
> by days in court, days in school, days in welfare agencies, 2 weeks being
> shown around the city by John Pic and possibly 10 days showing Robert around
> the city (Robert could not recall if he visited his mother and Lee in July
> or August of that year).
>
That's not fair. You are pointing out facts which cast doubt on Rush's
stories. How can we enjoy his little stories if we suspect that they
aren't true?
> And why o why would anyone campaigning to save the lives of two people on
> death row bother handing over a brochure to a 13 year old kid? What could
> Lee do ... write his Congressman?
>
> He later told Priscilla
>
>>Johnson that this was when he first began thinking about Communism and
>>Marxism, during this era in his life.
>
>
> He also said he was 15 when he started thinking about Communism. At the time
> the Rosenbergs were executed, Lee was 13. If you want to go with what he
> told Johnson, then someone was campaigning to save the Rosenbergs 2 years
> after they died.
>
Rush was never very good with time.
The past tends to get blurred.
greg
In fact, he did, Bob. The family history, up until he left home, and as much
as he knew about it after that.
> Greg, I see no reason whatsoever to presume that Robert should be
> unaware of Lee's obsession with this program.
Then compare what he said on that program to what he told the WC:
To Frontline: "Lee's fantasy life, to me, became apparent in the 1948, 1949,
1950
period. Living in Fort Worth, TV was making its debut. We had an old
black-and-white. He seemed to really get involved with it and hang onto
it after the programs were over. John and I would be off doing other things.
"I Led Three Lives" -- he became really engrossed in that particular TV
show, and he was still watching it when I left to go in the Marine Corps in
1952."
The message here is clear: Lee's fantasies... fuelled by "I led Three
lives", were starting to spin out of control. He was losing grip on reality.
Yet here is what he told the WC about Lee during his 10 day stay with him in
1953:
Mr. JENNER. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what was your
impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's state of mind
during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and friendly?
Mr. OSWALD. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was
quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during that
10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally.
Nor do I see anything
> particularly damning in his claim that this 13-15 year old kid was
> obsessed with a "spy" program - just like a zillion other kids his
> age.
Except that he was using this false information to help Frontline portray
his brother as a Lone Nut.
> There is just no reason at all, that Robert needed to lie about this.
None that you have bothered to try and discern because you believe it
without any evidence save his statements to Frontline.
> I can certainly buy the notion that Ferrie might have influenced LHO,
> but there is no reason on earth that he would have needed to
> impersonate a Marine recruiter.
He had no reason on earth to impersonate a doctor or a priest, either, but
he did.
Do recruitment officers usually make house calls?
Do they encourage kids to learn the Marine Manual AND about communism?
I know... I know... that was just Marguerite talking, and everyone KNOWS she
was looney tunes. We know because the WC supporters have managed to say it
often enough for it to be generally accepted.
He could certainly, have exerted all
> the influence he wanted to, on Lee and his mother, as a CAP commander.
You know this how?
Is a CAP commander generally held in higher public esteem than a Marine
Recruitment Officer?
Was he even a CAP commander at the time?
greg
greg
Correction to the above: The show premiered in October, '53. Robert
therefore could not have even seen one single episode with with his kid
brother.
greg
> I am no expert on Robert Oswald. 10 years ago, I would have cheerfully
> blown my day, trying to figure out how often he came home on leave,
> but not anymore.
>
> I do know however, that at the very least, he came home in 1956.
>
> I find it hard to believe though, that he did not come home from time
> to time during those three years, and also stayed in touch via letters
> and phone calls - to both his mother and Lee. There is just no reason
> to imagine that he was not aware of Lee's obsession with that
> television show.
>
> This was a pretty small family after all, and Marguerite only had one
> kid at home to talk about.
>
>>
>>Here's another clue: Robert never mention Lee being influenced this show
>>during his WC testimony.
>
> Obviously, he didn't think it was very important. He also didn't
> mention the schools Lee attended or a hundred other things.
In fact, he did, Bob. The family history, up until he left home, and as much
as he knew about it after that.
> Greg, I see no reason whatsoever to presume that Robert should be
> unaware of Lee's obsession with this program.
Then compare what he said on that program to what he told the WC:
To Frontline: "Lee's fantasy life, to me, became apparent in the 1948, 1949,
1950
period. Living in Fort Worth, TV was making its debut. We had an old
black-and-white. He seemed to really get involved with it and hang onto
it after the programs were over. John and I would be off doing other things.
"I Led Three Lives" -- he became really engrossed in that particular TV
show, and he was still watching it when I left to go in the Marine Corps in
1952."
The message here is clear: Lee's fantasies... fuelled by "I led Three
lives", were starting to spin out of control. He was losing grip on reality.
Yet here is what he told the WC about Lee during his 10 day stay with him in
1953:
Mr. JENNER. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what was your
impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's state of mind
during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and friendly?
Mr. OSWALD. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was
quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during that
10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally.
Nor do I see anything
> particularly damning in his claim that this 13-15 year old kid was
> obsessed with a "spy" program - just like a zillion other kids his
> age.
Except that he was using this false information to help Frontline portray
his brother as a Lone Nut.
> There is just no reason at all, that Robert needed to lie about this.
None that you have bothered to try and discern because you believe it
without any evidence save his statements to Frontline.
> I can certainly buy the notion that Ferrie might have influenced LHO,
> but there is no reason on earth that he would have needed to
> impersonate a Marine recruiter.
He had no reason on earth to impersonate a doctor or a priest, either, but
he did.
Do recruitment officers usually make house calls?
Do they encourage kids to learn the Marine Manual AND about communism?
I know... I know... that was just Marguerite talking, and everyone KNOWS she
was looney tunes. We know because the WC supporters have managed to say it
often enough for it to be generally accepted.
He could certainly, have exerted all
> the influence he wanted to, on Lee and his mother, as a CAP commander.
You know this how?
Is a CAP commander generally held in higher public esteem than a Marine
Recruitment Officer?
Was he even a CAP commander at the time?
greg
> Robert Harris
greg
Doesn't wash.
We know Lee watched it because Marguerite said so.
Robert used that information from his maother's testimony to paint Lee as
being off with the pixies -- a completely different Lee to the one he
described for the WC.
greg
jwrush
Are you guys having fun making stuff up? The Rosenbergs were executed in
1953. I think Oswald was 16 when he tried to join the Young People's
Socialist League.
See:
"Oct. 3, 1956 DEAR SiRS; I am 16 years of age and I would like some
information about your Youth League, I would like to know if there is a
branch in my area, how to join, ect., I am a Marxist, and have been studying
socialist principles for well over 15 months and I am very interested in
your Y.P.S.L. Sincerely Lee H. Oswald (Addrese over)."
http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules2/nodulec2.htm
dshar...@yahoo.com
when Oswald joined CAP.
David
Yosemite
July 24, 2005
James Olmstead
Lee to join. ALL OF their ads included the notice of age restriction for
membership...you had to be 18 to even apply. There was no kiddie program.
You will not find any "ad" or notice that does not include the notice of
age requirement for membership.
You tend to "blend" things together in your memory, however each aspect
has to be examined clearly and seperately before you can start to blend
the real from the rest of the story....
Lee was 13 in NYC not 15-16 and the letter you quote was sent days before
the enlistment in the Marine Corps.
jko
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
news:42e3...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
greg
>
> "James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
> news:42da...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>
>>>
>>> "James Olmstead" <Thp...@onecom.com> wrote in message
>>> news:42d9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>>> published and passed out on the streets of NYC that Oswald could
>>>> have been handed that would infuence him to become a communist,
>>>> marxist or later a "defector".
>>>
>>> This was done over several months in the New York and Washington area.
>>> Maybe you are too young to remember it. I remember seeing newsreel
>>> reports about the big "Save the Rosenberg" rallies in New York and the
>>> street speakers when I was a kid. Read Carl Berstein's book about it.
>>>
>>> http://tinypic.com/8zfked.jpg
>>
>> Rush: I far to old to be too young...I spent the summers of 53-54 in NYC
>> and
>> several vactions with family there over the years growing up in the 50's.
>> The
>> NYT's has microfilm on all such rallies, I have a collection of those
>> articles
>> concerning the Rosenbergs. Berstein's book is not the only source of info
>> I like USG reports....I believe you can download the FBI file from their
>> website. The point is you can't provide a "flyer" that falls into
>> Oswald's
>> story.
>>
>> jko
>>
>
> I don't know which "flyer" it was. I guess he eventually threw it away. I
> can't even provide the "flyers" Oswald gave me on Aug 16, 1963. I threw
> them away that same day. But it wasn't the communist "flyer" that
> converted Oswald, it was the entire Rosenberg story and the continuous
> communist propaganda of that era. It converted a lot of kids who
> eventually became the "new left" Marxists of the late 1960s. There were
> hundreds of thousands of them running around blowing up buildings and
> rioting in cities and on college campuses by 1967. Oswald was among the
> first of them. It's like the way Julius Rosenberg was influenced by the
> anarchist pamphlet and speeches about Tom Mooney, back when Rosenberg was
> 15 and living in New York. The anarchists were trying to get Mooney freed,
> just as the communists were trying to keep the Rosenbergs from being
> executed. Communist propaganda of every era breeds little Lee Oswalds and
> little Julius Rosenbergs of every era.
If Oswald was anything Left (debatable), it was Old Left, and therefore ANTI
New
Left/counter culture:
>From http://www.members.partisan.net/sds/sds00400.html . My comments in []
"The Progressive Labor Party (PLP) differed from almost every
other tendency within SDS in that it was a child of the Old Left
and very anti-counter-culture. It was attached to a fixed version
of Marxist thought [Oswald continually asserted he was a Marxist]. It felt
that if one wished to relate to the workers one had to be like the workers.
[Oswald dressed like, looked like and went to work with... workers]
Counter-cultural generational differences were viewed as middle class
phenomena with no relevance to the world of workers. Progressive Labor
militants therefore adopted styles and patterns of social behavior which
would not appear strange to workers. [he read newspapers and
magazines at lunchtime, he preferred classical music and James Bond novels
to Bob Dylan and Jack Kerouak beat books] The men had
short haircuts and both men and women dressed "neatly." [his hair was
short and he dressed neatly] They refused to use dope, not because of a
fear for police action against them--which was the SWP's usually stated
reason--but because workers would not respond positively to people who
did that kind of thing. Needless to say, they were conspicuous among
the more counter-culturally inclined delegates at SDS meetings."
greg
black...@aol.com
Just a few Ferrie things, circa 1955:
A good case can be nade that Ferrie impersonated a military officer. He
had avoided military service at the outset of WWII while his younger
brother enlisted, was shot down over France, escaped and was feted as a
hero. Ferrie was quite envious. When joining the CAP in Cleveland in
1946, he gave a clear impression the HE had been an officer in the US
Army Air Corps and a war hero, and he apparently cited an education at
Case Western Reserve, both items apparently copied from his brother.
(On the other hand, Ferrie did serve in the US Army Reserve 1950-3.)
I don't recall a specific instance of him impersonating a priest, but
he had some claim to the title, having attended 2 seminaries and taken
his four minor orders. Some people were under the impression that he
had been a priest.
And he tried very hard to give the impression that he was a doctor. He
felt that he had earned the right to the title "Dr." as the result of a
questionable degree in psychology from an Italian correspondence
school. He regularly practiced medicine on his CAP cadets and was
reprimanded for it, by the CAP, Eastern Air Lines and the local medical
association.
Some time ago I wondered if Ferrie had been the man in uniform who
influenced young Oswald in 1955. I told this to another researcher, who
was the source of one of the earliest mentions of this in a Groden
book. Another odd thing: In a 1956 letter, Oswald claims to have been
interested in Marxism for "well over 15 months", dating it to July 1955
- exactly the time he met Ferrie.
BTW, Ferrie had been the commander of the Lakefront CAP unit until Dec
54. From June-August 1955, he was a guest lecturer at the Moisant
squadron, where the famous picture was taken.
jwrush
Oh, whine, cry, shed tears for the assassin of the President. Why don't
you build a monument to him, maybe a statue of him holding his gun and
some leftist newspapers, up there in Boston.
jwrush
Ok. I'll put some of my comments in (( )).
>
> "The Progressive Labor Party (PLP) differed from almost every
> other tendency within SDS in that it was a child of the Old Left
> and very anti-counter-culture. ((This was the late 1960s, right? Not 1963.
> The very name, "progressive" and "labor party", were terms that were
> common in the 1930s and '40s, old left type of stuff. Marxist-Leninist
> type of stuff.))
It was attached to a fixed version
> of Marxist thought [Oswald continually asserted he was a Marxist] ((He was
> an independent Marxist. After his Russia experience, he rejected
> Marxism-Leninism)) It felt
> that if one wished to relate to the workers one had to be like the
> workers.
> [Oswald dressed like, looked like and went to work with... workers] ((He
> hated associating with American "workers" and he hated being one. He got
> really bored in that radio factory in Russia. He was only a worker because
> he couldn't get a good job doing anything else. He thought of himself as a
> great intellectual, a master theorist.))
> Counter-cultural generational differences were viewed as middle class
> phenomena with no relevance to the world of workers. Progressive Labor
> militants therefore adopted styles and patterns of social behavior which
> would not appear strange to workers. [he read newspapers and
> magazines at lunchtime, he preferred classical music and James Bond novels
> to Bob Dylan and Jack Kerouak beat books] ((He had spent a lot of time out
> of this country in the late '50s and early '60s. He didn't seem to be
> interested in beatniks. He thought of himself as a great Marxist thinker,
> not as a hippie.)) The men had
> short haircuts and both men and women dressed "neatly." [his hair was
> short and he dressed neatly]((Lol, so did I in '63, but by '67 I had long
> hair and a beard and I dressed like a hippie.)) They refused to use dope,
> not because of a
> fear for police action against them--which was the SWP's usually stated
> reason--but because workers would not respond positively to people who
> did that kind of thing. Needless to say, they were conspicuous among
> the more counter-culturally inclined delegates at SDS meetings."((You are
> comparing a group of late '60s leftist with an early '60s independent
> Oswald.))
>
> greg
>
>
>
>
>
jwrush
I think you are right. I used to be obsessed with "Mr. Ed" and I always
wanted to be a horse after that. I loved "Amos and Andy," and thereafter I
wanted to be a poor black guy living in a big city. I was obsessed with
Abbot and Costello movies, and because of that, I always wanted to be two
dumb white guys.
tomnln
That oughta get you into the majors.
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
news:42ea...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Martin Shackelford
advantage of it.
Martin
greg
No I am not. In your initial Dylan post, you quoted Dylan in part saying he
was a friend of Phillip Luce. Luce was one of the organisers of the student
trips to Cuba. In 1965, he wrote an article for the Saturday Evening Post
called Why I Quit the Extreme Left. The following year, he wrote a book
called "The New Left" with the help of HUAC. In other words, he was in the
thick of the New Left in the early 1960s and was writing from his
experiences in those years. Many believe was an infiltrator. Wonder if that
about-face from extreme left to extreme right ended his friendship with
Dylan?
Did you know Luce, btw? He hooked up with Ed Butler at some stage for those
speaking tours aimed at winning the hearts and minds of youth.
greg
>> greg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
jwrush
> Rush: The Socialist group Lee wrote to is one that it was impossible for
> Lee to join. ALL OF their ads included the notice of age restriction for
> membership...you had to be 18 to even apply. There was no kiddie program.
> You will not find any "ad" or notice that does not include the notice of
> age requirement for membership.
>
> You tend to "blend" things together in your memory, however each aspect
> has to be examined clearly and seperately before you can start to blend
> the real from the rest of the story....
>
> Lee was 13 in NYC not 15-16 and the letter you quote was sent days before
> the enlistment in the Marine Corps.
>
> jko
"In early October 1956, about a month before he turned 17, OSWALD wrote to
the Young People's Socialist League, which was part of the Socialist Party
headed by Norman Thomas. That letter follows: "Oct. 3, 1956 DEAR SiRS; I am
16 years of age and I would like some information about your Youth League, I
would like to know if there is a branch in my area, how to join, ect., I am
a Marxist, and have been studying socialist principles for well over 15
months and I am very interested in your Y.P.S.L. Sincerely Lee H. Oswald
(Addrese over)."
OSWALD dropped out of school a few days later and tried to join the
Marines."
http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules2/nodulec2.htm
Is this information incorrect?
jwrush
> Lee to join. ALL OF their ads included the notice of age restriction for
> membership...you had to be 18 to even apply. There was no kiddie program.
> You will not find any "ad" or notice that does not include the notice of
> age requirement for membership.
>
> You tend to "blend" things together in your memory, however each aspect
> has to be examined clearly and seperately before you can start to blend
> the real from the rest of the story....
>
> Lee was 13 in NYC not 15-16 and the letter you quote was sent days before
> the enlistment in the Marine Corps.
>
> jko
I never said he was 15-16 in New York.
jwrush
Are you talking to me or Olmstead? I think you were responding to Olmstead's
post about Dylan.
Rush
James Olmstead
The basics of the material is correct...however, membership in the
organization was out of the
question, you had to be 18 not 16 or 17 years old. So please explain why
days before he joins
the MC, he writes this organization, that would not even consider his
membership, due to his
age, prior to joining the MC....you do know about the "AG List" that all
recruits had to read and
swear that they were not in contact with organization such as the
Y.P.S.L.....
jko
James Olmstead
Greg is well aware of my positions.
jko
>
>
jwrush
Huh? I don't know, ask him. He tried to join the Marines when he was 16. He
didn't like to follow rules. He thought he was above rules. He wanted
everybody with rules to make exceptions just for him.
jwrush
I don't think I said anything about "Phillip Luce". Who is Phillip Luce?
greg
As Jim said. I'm talking to you, pilgrim.
Here is what you quoted Dylan saying in your thread on Dylan: "My friends
are my friends, and they're kind, gentle people if they're my friends. And
I'm not going to try to push nothing over. So, I accept this reward - not
reward, (Laughter) award in behalf of Phillip Luce who led the group to Cuba
which all people should go down to Cuba. I don't see why anybody can't go
to Cuba. I don't see what's going to hurt by going any place. I don't know
what's going to hurt anybody's eyes to see anything. On the other hand,
Phillip is a friend of mine who went to Cuba."
Given that Luce got all cozy with Butler, I thought you may know him.
Apparently not.
greg
bruno.d...@laposte.net
Peter Fokes
wrote:
<snip>
>>But
>> Lee Oswald didn't join the marines until 1956, leaving plenty of
>> time for him to watch "I Led Three Lives"
>Yep. Just not with Robert.
>> and I'm sure Robert
>> was in touch with him during those years even after leaving for
>> the Marines himself.
>Then you should be able to produce the evidence for those contacts -- even
>better if they include discussion on "I led Three Lives".
>
>greg
>
>> Rockett Crawford
Lets assume for the moment that Oswald was "obsessed" with this TV
show. Earlier in the thread, it was suggested that 'this show' was
one of the reasons Oswald became interested in Communism. In fact, in
his first post in this thread, JW Rush claims that "Oswald became
interested in the commie side of the TV show story."
The fact that Oswald watched the show is not in dispute, but the
nature of the show's influence on Oswald is, unquestionably, in
dispute.
Robert Harris believes Oswald was "obsessed" by Philbrick and his
activities. On the other hand, JW Rush seems to believe Oswald was not
influenced by Philbrick's heroic antics in unmasking Communists, but
rather the idea of Communism itself.
Having watched a number of these shows, I can confirm the Commies are
portrayed as dangerous but nonetheless flawed villains. I suspect a
typical young boy would be drawn to the heroic role model of Herbert
A. Philbrick rather than the role of the failed Communist spy.
PF
jwrush
"Peter Fokes" <justplai...@toronto.hm> wrote in message
news:dn2jf1dsdffn5bhgi...@4ax.com...
It is well known in psychology and the TV business that if you show millions
of kids a "cops and robbers" show, most of the kids will want to grow up to
be cops, but others will want to grow up to be robbers.
Oswald was not a normal kid and he was subjected to all the "Save the
Rosenbergs" rallies shown on New York TV news, also news films of the little
Rosenberg kids, and street speakers saying that it was the US government
that was bad, not people like the Rosenbergs. And Oswald had some trouble
with authority figures when he was in New York and he was a rebellious kid.
There were many other kids who saw the "I Led Three Lives" TV show who grew
up to be liberals and leftists in the 1960s. We had an explosion of youthful
leftism and Marxism in this country about 12-14 years after that show was on
the air.
jwrush
According to your and Harris' theory, because of that show, this country
should have been overrun with right-wing, conservative, anti-Communist young
people by the mid 1960s, but that's not what we had at all. We had a vast
youth leftist movement instead.
While that show was on the air, there were many more, and many movies too,
that were leading kids in the direction of leftism in this country.
jwrush
Tell us about butler and luce. I can't find anything on the internet about
it.
jwrush
Nope, sorry. I don't recall any Luce. Who was he? What did he do? I can't
imagine someone who was friends with both Butler and Bob Dylan at the same
time.
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Peter Fokes
True, many kids saw the show. But you make a leap of logic when you
suggest that particular TV show had a profound effect on making the
young viewers grow up to "be liberals and leftists in the 1960s."
PF
>
>
jwrush
I never said that. See my other post. I said: "While that show was on the
air, there were many more, and many movies too,
that were leading kids in the direction of leftism in this country." It was
a large number of TV shows and movies that led kids to want to be leftists,
including Oswald.
greg
Luce was head of press relations for the student delegation to Cuba. In
1965, he wrote a sensational article for the Saturday Evening Post entitled
"Why I Quit the Extreme Left". In 1966, with the help of HUAC staff, Luce
put out a book called "The New Left". Needless to say, his testimony, which
came between these two works, provided "proof" that the New Left was
Communist controlled. By 1969, Luce had hooked up with Ed Butler as "guest
speaker" at Butler's anti-Communist seminars. On sale at the seminars (which
were targeted to youth) were recordings of Oswald: a Self-Portrait in Red.
During the same period, Luce was made head of college services for YAF.
Ring any bells yet?
As for your insistence that there was no new left in '63, here is what
Luce - someone who was part of it, said:
"I was searching for a home in the frenzied world of revolution. It was not
until the summer of 1963, however, that I became fully involved. Action,
Color, Power. By then the so-called New Left was in loud and violent
eruption, an outgrowth of the stage of romantic anarchy called the Beat
Generation."
greg
jwrush
"Martin Shackelford" <msh...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:ddeica$h...@dispatch.concentric.net...
> Luce was a prominent young leftist.
>
> Martin
>
What would he be doing hanging around Butler, as a "prominent young
leftist"?
jwrush
Almost.
Thanks for the information.
I covered some of those seminars as a cameraman, but I don't remember what
year or any guy lecturing about having been to Cuba with a bunch of
communists. It's possible that Luce was at some of the seminars that I
missed. I think Butler had one every year, but I think I covered only two
of them, plus I attended some big convention in St. Louis around '71 or
'72 that he wanted me to film. Maybe a YAF convention or perhaps a
"libertarian" convention. I wasn't a whole lot interested in that kind of
"politics" back then. I was basically just a cameraman for him.
>
> As for your insistence that there was no new left in '63, here is what
> Luce - someone who was part of it, said:
> "I was searching for a home in the frenzied world of revolution. It was
> not until the summer of 1963, however, that I became fully involved.
> Action, Color, Power. By then the so-called New Left was in loud and
> violent eruption, an outgrowth of the stage of romantic anarchy called the
> Beat Generation."
I don't remember any big student protests in '63. I think the Berkeley
"free speech" movement was in '64 or '65, but highly localized to
Berkeley, with some stuff going on in New York. But in the South where
Oswald was, about all we had there in '63 were some New York and Berkeley
students down for the voter registration drives. I don't recall the term
"New Left" being used until the late '60s. I think there were probably
other independent Marxist-Oswalds running around on their own in '63-'64
but it didn't become a big movement until the late '60s. And I don't
remember the media using the "new left" term until maybe '67. What started
it was the big switch-over from the young leftists working with the Civil
Rights movement (non-violent stuff like MLK asked for) to working against
the war in Vietnam. That's when the leftist riots started. The Selma
march, which I think was around 1965, was peaceful as far as the left was
concerned. It was the far right that was very violent in '64-'65.
Oswald was one of those early ones, and there were probably other
independents like him in '63. Had he not shot the President, and had he
held off doing something foolish for just a few years, maybe by '66 or
'67, he would have probably wound up in San Francisco and Berkeley. But he
was pretty much alone in New Orleans and Dallas in '63.
That "loud and violent eruption" you mentioned actually started about '64
but with the early black power movement. On the left, the black power
movement started it first. The hippies, commies, and Marxists in '63-'64
were pretty much involved in the Civil Rights movement and were mostly
non-violent. After the war picked up around '66, when Johnson sent more
troops to Vietnam, then the young new leftists began to have their violent
demonstrations in places like San Francisco and Berkeley. But I don't
think they were called the "new left" much in the media until about
'67-'68.