Well, Miss Hine .. Miss Adams and Sandra Styles were in the building
Peter Fokes
hair or two.
Mr. Belin. You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went
down the stairs?
Miss Adams. I was running. We were running. [her and
Sandra Styles]
Mr. Belin. What kind of shoes did you have on? Miss Adams.
Three-inch heels.
.....
Mr. Belin. Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the
third to the second?
Miss Adams. That's correct.
Mr. Belin. As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?
Miss Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Belin. All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone
by the second floor?
Miss Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Belin. Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the
stairs towards the first floor?
Miss Adams. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar
as the time sequence, which we haven't done, ********what is your best
estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time
you got BACK to the building? **** How much time elapsed? If you have any
estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss Adams. I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.
Mr. Belin. Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation?
Miss Adams. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was
running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to
the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened
only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was
fired, and returned to the building.
[She was mighty mobile in those 3-inch heels let me tell you!]
Mr. Belin.
How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and
the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss Adams.
Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. Belin.
How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from
the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss Adams.
I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time
approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
{Well, Mrs. Reid was granted the stopwatch test. Was Miss Adams?]
Mr. Belin.
How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the
bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss Adams.
I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. Belin.
So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth
floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first
floor,was approximately 1 minute?
Miss Adams. Yes, approximately.
<quote off>
Running, running, running.... must have been a rather unforgettable
experience for Victoria. She could have tripped and fallen down those
stairs with those heels on. Then she ran here and there before....going
back in the building.
Is there any other witness who could verify or dispute Adams claim?
Someone who actually RAN DOWN the stairs with her?
Someone right next to her the whole time?
Someone who corroborate this crucial timing issue?
Someone who ran around to the front of the building with her?
Not that I doubt her.
Yup...
Sandra Styles.
Here is her testimony:
<quote on> <quote off>
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
seanmu...@gmail.com
Peter,
I spoke with Sandra Styles last summer ('08). Here is what she told me:
[QUOTE]
I watched the motorcade from a south-facing window on the fourth floor of
the Texas School Book Depository. With me was one of my Scott Foresman
colleagues, Victoria Adams (who sadly passed away last year). When the
shooting took place, we were not even aware at first that it was a
shooting. It sounded like fireworks. President Kennedy was obscured from
our view at the critical moments by tree foliage. All I could make out in
those moments was the pink of Mrs. Kennedy's suit.
Contrary to what Vickie told the Warren Commission, she and I did NOT go
to the rear stairs within a minute or so of the shooting. First, we
lingered by the window for quite some time, trying to determine what was
going on outside. Things were very confused. Next, we made an attempt to
take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however,
this elevator - which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the
fourth floor - did not come when we called it.
It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going
towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly -
we were wearing high-heel shoes!
While we were still in the office area, our view of the rear stairs was
blocked by partitions. Anyone could have come down those stairs without us
knowing about it.
All this time we had absolutely no idea that shots might have come from
the Depository building. As a result, I was paying very little attention
to what was going on inside the building in those first few minutes after
the assassination.
If the Warren Report estimated that Vickie and I reached the first floor
via the rear stairs some 4 or 5 minutes after the shooting, then I'd have
to say that sounds a little conservative. If anything, it was probably
longer. I have no clear recollection of seeing Bill Shelley or Billy
Lovelady (both of whom I had a passing acquaintance with) near the rear of
the building when we reached the first floor. I have a vague recollection
of seeing them at some point around the front entrance. But it's perfectly
possible we did see them where Vickie said we did - near the freight
elevator. I really wasn't paying much attention to people IN the building
- I thought all the action was outside.
It always puzzled me how Vickie seemed to exaggerate the speed with which
we went to the rear stairway. Although I was fond of her, I guess she was
what you might call a 'person of drama'. I found the version of events she
told people somewhat sensationalistic and at odds with my own memory of
those minutes. I simply stated what I recalled, but I didn't contradict
her because I felt I couldn't say what she saw or didn't see; just because
I didn't recall it the same way did not mean she was in error necessarily.
I am not that noble a person that I would not have contradicted her to the
interviewers had it been necessary.
Why was Vickie the only one called to testify before the Warren
Commission? I don't know. My recollection has always been that I WAS
interrogated by a representative from the Warren Commission very briefly
in our office, but there was no follow-up, whereas she was questioned more
than once. I have wondered whether it might have been that her testimony
required more investigation and mine was more plausible or I was less
positive in my recollections than she. It is true, however, that I have
always shied from the limelight, especially in this particular time in
history!
Vickie was a very friendly and gregarious person, while I am more reserved
and less outgoing. She may have exaggerated some points, while I was
cautious about what I said, not wanting to mislead. In some instances, her
version might be more accurate.
[UNQUOTE]
Regards,
Sean Murphy
John McAdams
Well I'll be boiled in oil!
Instead of the usual bickering over the same stale body of evidence,
we actually have *new* data introduced into the discussion.
The Styles testimony which Murphy posted is indeed consistent with the
WC conclusion when they studied this issue.
It's also consistent with what a student of mine concluded when he
tediously went through the details of the testimony of all the parties
involved.
But it's good to have a data point derived from asking the right
question and getting an on-point reply.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Sean Murphy
Last summer ('08) I had a lengthy telephone conversation, followed by
an e-mail exchange, with Sandra Styles. Here is what she told me:
[QUOTE]
[UNQUOTE]
This information was first posted on the Lancer forum on July 27th 2008.
Regards
Sean Murphy
Dublin
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Couldn't have been. In fact, they must have left the floor
*earlier*. Because Adams testified that after the two went out the
back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
That was Sgt Harkness, & yes, it's hard to tell if he's saying 3rd or
4th, & the dispatcher later sez the shots apparently came from the 3rd
or 4th floor. (He couldn't tell either.) Harkness' call was at
12:36, which means that Adams' timetable is more accurate than
Styles. The two were out front by 12:36, not just reaching the first
floor....
dw
tomnln
"Sean Murphy" <seanmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5a4cd9c1-d81b-458c...@e3g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
Sean Murphy
back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
No, Harkness says fifth.
Besides, here's Adams's testimony:
"I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they
said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the
second floor or the fourth floor window".
Nothing about third floor.
She is clearly recalling either Brewer ("We have a man here who says
he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second
floor from the southeast corner of that depository building") or, less
likely, Hill ("It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm
Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the
end."). Both of these broadcasts came after 12:37pm.
Sean
Peter Fokes
Thank you, Sean.
How is Sandra? Did you ask her if the WC ever spoke to her? Or the
FBI?
It doesn't seem we have any contemporaneous account by Sandra of the
events on Nov. 22.
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>>>>...Adams testified that after the two went out the
>
> back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
> a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
> That was Sgt Harkness...<<<<<
>
> No, Harkness says fifth.
I misspoke, as I am wont to do if I don't actually check my sources. Yes,
VA said 2nd or 4th. And Harkness said either 4th or 5th. I've listened
to that broadcast many times & can't say for sure which it is, & neither
could the dispatcher, who at 12:46 tells Insp Sawyer "It did come from
about the 5th or 4th floor'". Adams was on the 4th floor, & she heard
"4th" & got scared. She heard Harkness at 12:36.
dw
Peter Fokes
Rereading her comments, I notice she does say "was interrogated by a
representative from the Warren Commission very briefly
in our office, but there was no follow-up."
> It doesn't seem we have any contemporaneous account by Sandra of the
> events on Nov. 22.
According to James DiEugenio, "when Adams read her testimony, she was
surprised to see that it said she started down the stairs 30-60
seconds after the shots. She immediately went to the U.S. Attorney's
office in Dallas and had it corrected to 15-20 seconds ..."
DiEugenio notes that the FBI DID talk to Styles, "but her interview is
not filed with interviews of the other TSBD employees." He points out
that Bugliosi "alludes to a location for this interview in the
Commission volumes, but the source for it appears to be wrong."
DeEugenio also writes: "Adams originally said that when she got off
the stairs she noticed employee Bill shelley and Billy Lovelady, and
told them what she had seen from the window. But the Warren Report
said that the two men had been to the railroad yards at the time of
the shooting and then returned to the TSBD, so Adams had to be wroong
about the timing of her run down the stairs, Yet in the FBI interviews
and Dallas Police interviews that Shelley and Lovelady gave on the day
of the assassination there is no mention of them running to the
railroad yards after the shots."
See:
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v5n2/v5n2dieugenio2.pdf
Styles did not hear the shots? That's interesting. Geneva Hine said
the shots were so loud it caused the building to vibrate!
Again, thanks for your comments.
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Sean Murphy
Don,
Adams's testimony - "they said that shots had been fired which
apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor
window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the
fourth floor." - includes the elements: second, fourth & window. Even
granting a phonetic ambiguity to Harkness's "fifth"/"fourth" @ 12:36,
it is hard to find a coherent match in Adams's recollection.
Brewer's post-12:37 transmission is another matter: "We have a man
here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off
of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository
building". Adams is hearing 'second' & 'window' - and quite reasonably
deducing that 'second floor from the southeast corner' may mean
'second floor from the top' (i.e. fourth floor). Hence her "panic".
That she recalls having heard explicit use of the word "second" is
established beyond doubt in her response to Belin's follow-up:
"Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - *It said second floor.* So then I decided maybe I had
better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---"
No mention of anything approximating 'second floor' or 'window' in
Harkness's broadcast.
Sean
Sean Murphy
> > FBI?
> Rereading her comments, I notice she does say "was interrogated by a
> representative from the Warren Commission very briefly
> in our office, but there was no follow-up."
> > It doesn't seem we have any contemporaneous account by Sandra of the
> > events on Nov. 22.
Peter, Sandra impressed me as someone with zero personal interest in
publicity or attention. At no point did she try to speculate beyond
her own immediate experiences or recollections.
Here FWIW is a March 64 statement which she gave to the F.B.I.:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=90
> Styles did not hear the shots? That's interesting. Geneva Hine said
> the shots were so loud it caused the building to vibrate!
Sandra did hear the shots, she just thought they must be fireworks.
She had no idea where the noise was coming from.
Regards,
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> On Mar 10, 1:38 am, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Sean Murphy <seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>>>>...Adams testified that after the two went out the
>
> > > back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
> > > a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
> > > That was Sgt Harkness...<<<<<
>
> > > No, Harkness says fifth.
>
> > I misspoke, as I am wont to do if I don't actually check my sources. Yes,
> > VA said 2nd or 4th. And Harkness said either 4th or 5th. I've listened
> > to that broadcast many times & can't say for sure which it is, & neither
> > could the dispatcher, who at 12:46 tells Insp Sawyer "It did come from
> > about the 5th or 4th floor'". Adams was on the 4th floor, & she heard
> > "4th" & got scared. She heard Harkness at 12:36.
>
> > dw
>
> Don,
>
> Adams's testimony - "they said that shots had been fired which
> apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor
> window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the
> fourth floor." - includes the elements: second, fourth & window. Even
> granting a phonetic ambiguity to Harkness's "fifth"/"fourth" @ 12:36,
> it is hard to find a coherent match in Adams's recollection.
>
The dispatcher heard "4th" or "5th"; Adams heard "4th"--match.
dw
> Brewer's post-12:37 transmission is another matter: "We have a man
> here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off
> of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository
> building". Adams is hearing 'second' & 'window' - and quite reasonably
> deducing that 'second floor from the southeast corner' may mean
> 'second floor from the top' (i.e. fourth floor).
No -- "2nd floor from the top" would be the 6th floor. Not even
close.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 10, 1:38 am, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> ...Adams testified that after the two went out the
>>> back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
>>> a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
>>> That was Sgt Harkness...<<<<<
>>> No, Harkness says fifth.
>> I misspoke, as I am wont to do if I don't actually check my sources. Yes,
>> VA said 2nd or 4th. And Harkness said either 4th or 5th. I've listened
>> could the dispatcher, who at 12:46 tells Insp Sawyer "It did come from
>> "4th"& got scared. She heard Harkness at 12:36.
>>
>> dw
>
> Don,
>
> Adams's testimony - "they said that shots had been fired which
> apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor
> window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the
> granting a phonetic ambiguity to Harkness's "fifth"/"fourth" @ 12:36,
> it is hard to find a coherent match in Adams's recollection.
>
WOW, she panicked. Maybe she thought they were going to charge HER with
the assassination!
Sean Murphy
> The dispatcher heard "4th" or "5th"; Adams heard "4th"--match.
> dw
Don,
But Adams didn't just recall "4th", she recalled "2nd floor" and "window"
also. How do you match these elements with Harkness's "I have a witness
that says that it came from the Xth floor of the Texas Book Depository
Store" (even granting that Adams *may* have heard 'X' as '4')?
>No -- "2nd floor from the top" would be the 6th floor. Not even close.<
If 7th floor is top, then 6th is one from the top and 5th second from the
top. In her panic, Adams may have been out by one. Alternatively, she may
have counted the sixth floor as the top working floor and, in her panic,
counted two floors down from there to 4th.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > Sean--
> > The dispatcher heard "4th" or "5th"; Adams heard "4th"--match.
> > dw
>
> Don,
>
> But Adams didn't just recall "4th", she recalled "2nd floor" and "window"
> also. How do you match these elements with Harkness's "I have a witness
> that says that it came from the Xth floor of the Texas Book Depository
> Store" (even granting that Adams *may* have heard 'X' as '4')?
But "2nd floor" was Brewer's, wasn't it? Adams heard *two* messages. I've
always wondered why, if she panicked, she waited a minute or two after
hearing "4th" (Harkness) & heard "2nd" (Brewer)....
>
> >No -- "2nd floor from the top" would be the 6th floor. Not even close.
<
>
> If 7th floor is top, then 6th is one from the top and 5th second from the
> top. In her panic, Adams may have been out by one. Alternatively, she may
> have counted the sixth floor as the top working floor and, in her panic,
> counted two floors down from there to 4th.
>
IF she did some calculating, we don't know *how* she did it--2nd from top
of building (6th) or 2nd from top floor (5th). But this is speculation
since she said nothing about calculating, just 2 floor numbers. She seems
to have panicked when she *heard* "4th", not when she figured, oh, 2nd,
two down, 4th, panic!
dw
Sean Murphy
> always wondered why, if she panicked, she waited a minute or two after
> hearing "4th" (Harkness) & heard "2nd" (Brewer)....<
Adams heard two messages? Very interesting suggestion - it would
certainly explain her strange hovering between "second" and "fourth".
However, her testimony suggests a much briefer pause on her part to
listen to the police radio. She talks of "report" in the singular.
Plus, as you say, "panic" would scarcely have induced her to hang
around for another couple of minutes...
Listening again to Harkness's "I have a witness that says that it came
from the Xth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store", I have been
wondering whether Adams could possibly have heard 'X' as "either
second or fourth". But 'second' does seem an awful stretch.
Of course, all of the broadcasts we have been discussing (12:36-12:38)
timestamp Vicky and Sandra's exit from the TSBD securely in line with
Sandra's recollection: several minutes post-shooting.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Sean -- Actually, they contradicts Styles. She said the reported 4-5
minutes to the 1st floor was "conservative"--it was probably longer than
that. But Adams was around the building & out front by that time, ie,
12:36.
dw
Sean Murphy
> minutes to the 1st floor was "conservative"--it was probably longer than
> that. But Adams was around the building & out front by that time, ie,
> 12:36.
Whoah there, Don.
The case for the 12:36 broadcast has been made, not proven. It remains
highly problematical - not least because, as you point out yourself,
it would force us to posit Adams's having remained by the radio long
enough to hear a second broadcast a couple of minutes later. When she
herself recalled nothing of the sort in her WC testimony.
Vicky Adams told the WC she found it hard to see how her re-entry into
the TSBD could have been later than 5 minutes after the shooting. She
was certainly wrong about that. On your own reckoning, she cannot have
re-entered the building less than some 8 minutes after the shooting.
I spoke of Sandra Styles's overall timeline. Even if one were to
suspend disbelief and posit 12:36 as the first broadcast Vicky heard,
how does that discredit Sandra's timeline? She said it took several
minutes after the shooting for her and Vicky to reach the first floor
- and several minutes is supported by *all* possible broadcasts. Now,
while Sandra felt that 4-5 minutes sounded a little conservative, she
at no point ruled it out. She said "probably" not "definitely" a
little longer than that. What she was quite insistent on, however, was
the absolute impossibility of her and Vicky having ran for those rear
stairs anything close to 15-30 seconds after the shooting.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > Sean -- Actually, they contradicts Styles. She said the reported 4-5
> > minutes to the 1st floor was "conservative"--it was probably longer than
> > that. But Adams was around the building & out front by that time, ie,
> > 12:36.
>
> Whoah there, Don.
>
> The case for the 12:36 broadcast has been made, not proven. It remains
> highly problematical - not least because, as you point out yourself,
> it would force us to posit Adams's having remained by the radio long
> enough to hear a second broadcast a couple of minutes later. When she
> herself recalled nothing of the sort in her WC testimony.
Yo there, Sean -- I think the 12:36 time is pretty much settled. The
very first transcription of the DPD radio logs (11/22 I believe) was
very sketchy. In fact, the transcriber got only two words from
Harkness' 12:36 message. But those two words were: "4th floor"!
(jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us) He heard the same thing that Adams heard. Why
she waited...? Perhaps she was too stunned to move for a few
minutes. But she & the first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor"... at
12:36....
dw
Sean Murphy
> very first transcription of the DPD radio logs (11/22 I believe) was
> very sketchy. In fact, the transcriber got only two words from
> Harkness' 12:36 message. But those two words were: "4th floor"!
> (jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us) He heard the same thing that Adams heard. Why
> she waited...? Perhaps she was too stunned to move for a few
> minutes. But she & the first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor"... at
> 12:36....
> dw
"Miss ADAMS: ...I paused-there to listen to the report on the police
radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came
either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I
panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor."
So Adams hears "fourth" - her floor - at 12:36. She stays put. She hears
"second" - not her floor - at 12:38. She panics!
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Sean -- The main point is she was in front of the TSBD by the time the
cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
dw
Peter Fokes
<quote on>
Miss Adams. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was
running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to
the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone,
listened
only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was
fired, and returned to the building.
<quote off>
How could they have run to the railroad tracks, and returned to the
front of the building to hear the
cop say the "4th" by 12:36 pm UNLESS they left the building el pronto
after the shooting?
Doesn't seem to me Styles and Adams had time to "linger" in the
building, run down the stairs, run to the railroad tracks and return
to the front of the building
to hear this cop UNLESS they left within seconds.
Adams was so adamant she had the investigator revise her statement,
and that request came soon after the events.
Styles is recalling her impressions decades after the incident.
Now, be honest with yourself, how accurate is your memory a few days
after an event and then decades after an event?
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Sean Murphy
> cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
> when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
> the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
> dw
Don,
*If* you're right about 12:36 - and, sorry, it's still a whopping big if -
it merely means that Styles and Adams hit the first floor some 4-5 minutes
after the shots. How you can see that as supporting Adams's timetable (we
reached the first floor within 75-90 seconds of the shooting) over
Styles's (we reached the first floor at least 4-5 minutes after the
shooting) is beyond me.
Sean
Sean Murphy
> front of the building to hear the
> cop say the "4th" by 12:36 pm UNLESS they left the building el pronto
> after the shooting?
Peter,
It's far from clear that Adams did hear the 12:36 broadcast. But even if
she did...
She & Styles exited by the Houston Street dock. From there to the first
set of railroad tracks was a very short distance indeed - cf 4:20-4:28 of
this clip from the 1978 television movie "Ruby and Oswald" (which, unless
I am very much mistaken, was shot on location and represents no major
landscape change from 1963): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2ckz_BEfk
> Styles is recalling her impressions decades after the incident.
>
> Now, be honest with yourself, how accurate is your memory a few days
> after an event and then decades after an event?
And Sandra took great pains in our conversation to disclaim infallibility.
Where her memory was hazy she immediately said so. On one point however
she was quite insistent: no way did Vicky and she go to those rear stairs
within a minute of the shooting. They lingered by the window; they tried
to call the front elevator. Unless she is making this up out of whole
cloth, there is simply no way Adams's timeline can be correct. And,
crucially, it is Styles's timeline of several minutes which *all* proposed
radio broadcasts support.
Best,
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > Sean -- The main point is she was in front of the TSBD by the time the
>
> > cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
> > when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
> > the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
> > dw
>
> Don,
>
> *If* you're right about 12:36 - and, sorry, it's still a whopping big if
No longer. The first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor" at 12:36--
those were the only words he heard to a certainty, the only words that
he could transcribe!
dw
> it merely means that Styles and Adams hit the first floor some 4-5 minutes
> after the shots.
...And then it took them only about a minute & a half to go out the
back, go to the west side of the building, then go around to the
front?? I thot you were protesting (or SS was) that they were in high
heels & couldn't get around that fast! Now, they're speed demons!
And I'll go further--it's unlikely that Adams got to the front *just
in time* to hear "4th floor" at 12:36. She probably got there a
little before that time even....
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > How could they have run to the railroad tracks, and returned to the
> > front of the building to hear the
> > cop say the "4th" by 12:36 pm UNLESS they left the building el pronto
> > after the shooting?
>
> Peter,
>
> It's far from clear that Adams did hear the 12:36 broadcast. But even if
> she did...
>
> She & Styles exited by the Houston Street dock. From there to the first
> set of railroad tracks was a very short distance indeed - cf 4:20-4:28 of
> this clip from the 1978 television movie "Ruby and Oswald" (which, unless
> I am very much mistaken, was shot on location and represents no major
> landscape change from 1963):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2ckz_BEfk
>
> > Styles is recalling her impressions decades after the incident.
>
> > Now, be honest with yourself, how accurate is your memory a few days
> > after an event and then decades after an event?
>
> And Sandra took great pains in our conversation to disclaim infallibility.
> Where her memory was hazy she immediately said so. On one point however
> she was quite insistent: no way did Vicky and she go to those rear stairs
> within a minute of the shooting.
*Someone* was worried about Adams' story. Patrolman Baker originally
said that he called the suspect back to the stairway, where Truly
cleared him. Not until Saturday does *Truly* situate the encounter
off the stairwell & in the lunchroom. *Someone* didn't want Baker/
Truly/Oswald on the stairway at the same time as Adams....
dw
They lingered by the window; they tried
> to call the front elevator.
The contemporary Styles ('64?) said nothing about first going to the
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 15, 7:06 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Sean -- The main point is she was in front of the TSBD by the time the
>>
>>> cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
>>> when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
>>> the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
>>> dw
>>
>> Don,
>>
>> *If* you're right about 12:36 - and, sorry, it's still a whopping big if
>
> No longer. The first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor" at 12:36--
> those were the only words he heard to a certainty, the only words that
> he could transcribe!
We have always had problems with the DPD transcriptions. We can not rely
on them for facts.
> dw
>> it merely means that Styles and Adams hit the first floor some 4-5 minutes
>> after the shots.
>
> ...And then it took them only about a minute& a half to go out the
> back, go to the west side of the building, then go around to the
> front?? I thot you were protesting (or SS was) that they were in high
> heels& couldn't get around that fast! Now, they're speed demons!
Sean Murphy
Sure, but did Adams? Only if we cherry-pick her actual testimony:
She spoke of one report, not two.
She stressed the brevity of her "pause" by the police motorcycle.
The one report she did hear was ambiguous. It indicated that the shots
came "either from the second floor or the fourth floor window."
This does not match the 12:36 "fifth/fourth floor" broadcast.
She panicked at the report she had just heard, not at an earlier one
("fourth) which now appeared to be overridden by the latest
information ("second").
Why did she panic? Because the one ambiguous report she had just heard
carried the possible implication of the fourth floor being involved.
Of one thing Adams was sure: the one ambiguous report she heard
contained the words "second floor". This, as she correctly inferred,
mightn't necessarily mean second floor *up*...
All of this matches Brewer's post-12:37 broadcast.
***
>>>> ...And then it took them only about a minute & a half to go out the back, go to the west side of the building, then go around to the front??<<<<
Why not? How long do you estimate it takes to walk from the back to
the front of the TSBD?
***
>>>>I thot you were protesting (or SS was) that they were in high heels & couldn't get around that fast!
Adams herself told the WC she was wearing three-inch heels.
***
>>>>> And I'll go further--it's unlikely that Adams got to the front *just in time* to hear "4th floor" at 12:36.<<<<
OK, but by the same token it's unlikely the dispatcher's "12:36" means
12:36:00. But all that's academic - she probably never heard that
particular broadcast in the first place.
Sean
Sean Murphy
Don, the Baker-Truly affair is indeed a mess - you'll get no argument
from me on that. But Adams-Styles are neither here nor there. They
missed the action.
***
>>>>>Not until Saturday does *Truly* situate the encounter off the stairwell & in the lunchroom.<<<<<<
Late Friday.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> On 3/16/2009 11:01 AM, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Mar 15, 7:06 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Sean -- The main point is she was in front of the TSBD by the time the
>
> >>> cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
> >>> when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
> >>> the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
> >>> dw
>
> >> Don,
>
> >> *If* you're right about 12:36 - and, sorry, it's still a whopping big if
>
> > No longer. The first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor" at 12:36--
> > those were the only words he heard to a certainty, the only words that
> > he could transcribe!
>
> We have always had problems with the DPD transcriptions. We can not rely
> on them for facts.
>
Victoria Adams heard "4th floor" at 12:36 & so did the first police
transcriber. Myself, I find it hard to say whether Harkness is saying
4th or 5th, so it's not surprising that a person on the 4th floor
would hear 4th, & wouldn't have been surprising if someone on the 5th
heard 5th....
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>>>>*Someone* was worried about Adams' story. Patrolman Baker originally said that he called the suspect back to the stairway, where Truly cleared him.<<<<<<<<<
>
> Don, the Baker-Truly affair is indeed a mess - you'll get no argument
> from me on that. But Adams-Styles are neither here nor there. They
> missed the action.
>
were on the 1st floor when she came down. Why invoke the names of two
eminently interviewable depository personnel unless they were in fact
there? Easy enuf for them to deny it, you would think. In fact,
however, they had the devil's own time denying they were back in there
so shortly after the shooting--poor Shelley had Baker & Truly entering
the front door "3 or 4 minutes" after the shots were fired (v6p329).
Boy, yes, that would then set Adams & Styles back 5 or 6 minutes! Or
it would if Shelley hadn't shot himself in the foot with the Baker-
Truly timing!
dw
> ***
>
> >>>>>Not until Saturday does *Truly* situate the encounter off the stairwell & in the lunchroom.<<<<<<
>
> Late Friday.
His county affidavit is dated the 23rd (Sat.). Do you know of an
earlier Truly statement?
> Sean
Sean Murphy
> were on the 1st floor when she came down. Why invoke the names of two
> eminently interviewable depository personnel unless they were in fact
> there?
Ah, but someone else had already invoked Bill Shelley's name, putting
him out front...
***
>>>>>> His county affidavit is dated the 23rd (Sat.). Do you know of an
earlier Truly statement?<<<<<<<<
The F.B.I. interviewed Truly 11/22, at some point after Oswald's first
interrogation session. This appears to be the very first mention anywhere
of a second-floor lunchroom incident:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95616&relPageId=74
As such, it provides an interesting bridge between the joint Bookhout-
Hosty interrogation report and Bookhout's solo 'supplement'.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>>The first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor" at 12:36--<<<
>
> Sure, but did Adams? Only if we cherry-pick her actual testimony:
> She spoke of one report, not two.
But she spoke of "they"--"they said that shots had been fired...."
Indicating more than one speaker. I think she's using "report"
loosely, to indicate everything she heard.
> She stressed the brevity of her "pause" by the police motorcycle.
> The one report she did hear was ambiguous. It indicated that the shots
> came "either from the second floor or the fourth floor window."
> This does not match the 12:36 "fifth/fourth floor" broadcast.
> She panicked at the report she had just heard, not at an earlier one
> ("fourth) which now appeared to be overridden by the latest
> information ("second").
> Why did she panic? Because the one ambiguous report she had just heard
> carried the possible implication of the fourth floor being involved.
> Of one thing Adams was sure: the one ambiguous report she heard
> contained the words "second floor". This, as she correctly inferred,
> mightn't necessarily mean second floor *up*...
> All of this matches Brewer's post-12:37 broadcast.
>
> ***
>
> >>>> ...And then it took them only about a minute & a half to go out the back, go to the west side of the building, then go around to the front??<<<<
>
> Why not? How long do you estimate it takes to walk from the back to
> the front of the TSBD?
>
> ***
>
> >>>>I thot you were protesting (or SS was) that they were in high heels & couldn't get around that fast!
>
> Adams herself told the WC she was wearing three-inch heels.
>
I rest my case.
>
> >>>>> And I'll go further--it's unlikely that Adams got to the front *just in time* to hear "4th floor" at 12:36.<<<<
>
> OK, but by the same token it's unlikely the dispatcher's "12:36" means
> 12:36:00. But all that's academic - she probably never heard that
> particular broadcast in the first place.
She said "4th" & "2nd"--dispatchers heard the same thing when they
later reported shots from the 4th or 5th floor.
> Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > Another reason I trust Adams is that she said that Shelley & Lovelady
> > were on the 1st floor when she came down. Why invoke the names of two
> > eminently interviewable depository personnel unless they were in fact
> > there?
>
> Ah, but someone else had already invoked Bill Shelley's name, putting
> him out front...
>
himself off the 1st floor until, say, 12:40 were pretty comical....
dw
>
> >>>>>> His county affidavit is dated the 23rd (Sat.). Do you know of an
>
> earlier Truly statement?<<<<<<<<
>
> The F.B.I. interviewed Truly 11/22, at some point after Oswald's first
> interrogation session. This appears to be the very first mention anywhere
> of a second-floor lunchroom incident:
>
>
Thank you for the link!
Sean Murphy
putting him out front...<
DW: >>>>>>>You mean during the shooting, or what?<<<<<<<
No, I'm talking about Oswald's reported claim in custody that he and
Shelley spoke out front as Oswald was exiting the TSBD. It may give us
an important key as to what really happened - and what really *didn't*
happen - inside that second-floor lunchroom.
***
SM: >The F.B.I. interviewed Truly 11/22, at some point after Oswald's
first interrogation session. This appears to be the very first mention
anywhere of a second-floor lunchroom incident:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=956...<
DW: >>>>>>Thank you for the link!<<<<<<
No problem, Don.
My understanding is that the Bookhout-Hosty FBI report came first,
then Truly's FBI interview - and only then Bookhout's solo corrective.
This curious textual sequence may give us a second key to the
lunchroom affair.
Sean
Sean Murphy
heard.
A bit of a stretch IMO.
***
> She said "4th" & "2nd"--dispatchers heard the same thing when they later
reported shots from the 4th or 5th floor.
4th + 2nd = "the same thing" as 4th + 5th???
***
It's perhaps worth mentioning that the testimony of witnesses James
Romack and 'Pop' Rackley chimes with Sandra Styles's timeline. Both
men insisted that no-one exited by the Houston Street dock in the
first 4-5 minutes after the shooting.
***
Don, Vicky Adams says she made her way towards the rear stairs within
15-30 seconds of the shooting. Everything else - witnesses, radio
broadcasts and now even her companion - says several minutes.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >I think [Adams is] using "report" loosely, to indicate everything she
>
> heard.
>
> A bit of a stretch IMO.
>
reported....
>
> > She said "4th" & "2nd"--dispatchers heard the same thing when they later
>
> reported shots from the 4th or 5th floor.
>
> 4th + 2nd = "the same thing" as 4th + 5th???
>
12:36 message & the dispatcher who about 12:46 said the shots
apparently came from the 4th or 5th floor.
>
> It's perhaps worth mentioning that the testimony of witnesses James
> Romack and 'Pop' Rackley chimes with Sandra Styles's timeline. Both
> men insisted that no-one exited by the Houston Street dock in the
> first 4-5 minutes after the shooting.
>
backup evidence. I offer James Worrell, who said a guy came out the
back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after the shooting. How'd Romack &
Rackley miss *him*?
>
> Don, Vicky Adams says she made her way towards the rear stairs within
> 15-30 seconds of the shooting. Everything else - witnesses, radio
> broadcasts and now even her companion - says several minutes.
Actually, not. Other witnesses conflict (see above). (Plus Shelley,
who--to put Adams' return to the TSBD *way back* said that Truly &
Baker entered first, *3 minutes* after the shooting! Hilarious.)
Radio sez she was there by 12:36. Her companion conveniently waited
to say anything until Adams had died & could not respond!
> Sean
Sean Murphy
OK, so: 'They just reported on the news that Obama's stimulus package
has gone through' means: 'Several announcers just reported...'?
Besides, Adams was listening to a snippet of conversation between
officer and dispatcher.
And anyway, she uses both "they" and "it".
No mention of several reports; no indication of a pause by the radio
that lasted a couple of minutes.
***
> > 4th + 2nd = "the same thing" as 4th + 5th???
>
> Clarification. Dispatchers heard "4th"--the first transcriber of the
> 12:36 message & the dispatcher who about 12:46 said the shots
> apparently came from the 4th or 5th floor.
i.e. Adams's 4th or 2nd is *not* matched by the 12:36 transmission's
4th or 5th. In order to find a "2nd" somewhere we must keep Adams by
that radio for several minutes more - contrary to her own testimony
that she re-entered the building within 5 minutes of the shooting.
***
>>>>>>I offer James Worrell, who said a guy came out the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after the shooting.<<<<<<
Worrell reached his vantage point seconds after the shooting - which
is why he recalled seeing Adams & Styles tearing out of the building
shortly before the man.
No wait, he didn't.
***
>>>>>>How'd Romack & Rackley miss *him*?<<<<<<
How indeed?
***
>>>>>>(Plus Shelley, who--to put Adams' return to the TSBD *way back* said that Truly & Baker entered first, *3 minutes* after the shooting! Hilarious.)<<<<<<
If that was their intention, they could have simply added on another 3
minutes to their little excursion over by the railroad tracks. Much
cleaner.
The problems with Shelley & Lovelady's testimony - and I don't dispute
that there *are* problems - surely stem from Oswald's (reported) claim
to have spoken with Shelley out front as he was leaving the TSBD.
***
>>>>>>Radio sez she was there by 12:36.<<<<<<
12:36 = several minutes + a couple of minutes!
***
>>>>>>Her companion conveniently waited to say anything until Adams had died & could not respond!<<<<<<
All due respect, Don, but that's nonsense. Sandra Styles was contacted
out of the blue by a researcher who had no idea that Adams had
recently passed away. The timing was not of her choosing. In this
respect she resembles Carolyn Arnold, who finally got a chance to set
the record straight in 1978 when Anthony Summers phoned her out of the
blue.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> SM: >Ah, but someone else had already invoked Bill Shelley's name,
> putting him out front...<
> DW: >>>>>>>You mean during the shooting, or what?<<<<<<<
>
> No, I'm talking about Oswald's reported claim in custody that he and
> Shelley spoke out front as Oswald was exiting the TSBD. It may give us
> an important key as to what really happened - and what really *didn't*
> happen - inside that second-floor lunchroom.
>
Good you said "reported claim". The only source I see for the Shelley
claim is Bookhout's "corrective" (as you put it below) report, which is
highly suspect. Bookhout & Hosty both signed the joint, earlier report,
which detailed Oswald's 2nd-floor soda run, but somehow omitted any
mention of running into a cop in the lunchroom. Hence, the "corrective",
or fiction. Would not trust anything in the solo report, which may not
even have been written by Bookhout, but by someone who wanted to correct
the no-cop lunchroom-non-encounter. Plus, by naming Shelley, Shelley could
easily contradict "Oswald" or [insert name of FBI official] & log another
"lie" for O....
dw
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>>>>>No more than saying that Adams's "they" was a "he" when she said "they" reported....<<<<<<
>
> OK, so: 'They just reported on the news that Obama's stimulus package
> has gone through' means: 'Several announcers just reported...'?
> Besides, Adams was listening to a snippet of conversation between
> officer and dispatcher.
> And anyway, she uses both "they" and "it".
> No mention of several reports; no indication of a pause by the radio
> that lasted a couple of minutes.
>
> ***
>
> > > 4th + 2nd = "the same thing" as 4th + 5th???
>
> > Clarification. Dispatchers heard "4th"--the first transcriber of the
> > 12:36 message & the dispatcher who about 12:46 said the shots
> > apparently came from the 4th or 5th floor.
>
> i.e. Adams's 4th or 2nd is *not* matched by the 12:36 transmission's
> 4th or 5th. In order to find a "2nd" somewhere we must keep Adams by
> that radio for several minutes more - contrary to her own testimony
> that she re-entered the building within 5 minutes of the shooting.
>
> ***
>
> >>>>>>I offer James Worrell, who said a guy came out the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after the shooting.<<<<<<
>
> Worrell reached his vantage point seconds after the shooting - which
> is why he recalled seeing Adams & Styles tearing out of the building
> shortly before the man.
> No wait, he didn't.
>
He also did not recall seeing a cop at the back of the building, as per
Barnett's testimony, altho Worrell said he was there for 3 minutes before
he saw the suspect. Barnett testified that he & his sergeant were at the
back on Houston about 2-1/2 minutes after the shooting. Worrell apparently
was not looking in that direction all the time....
dw
dcwi...@yahoo.com
>
> OK, so: 'They just reported on the news that Obama's stimulus package
> has gone through' means: 'Several announcers just reported...'?
> Besides, Adams was listening to a snippet of conversation between
> officer and dispatcher.
> And anyway, she uses both "they" and "it".
> No mention of several reports; no indication of a pause by the radio
> that lasted a couple of minutes.
>
minute.
>
> > > 4th + 2nd = "the same thing" as 4th + 5th???
>
> > Clarification. Dispatchers heard "4th"--the first transcriber of the
> > 12:36 message & the dispatcher who about 12:46 said the shots
> > apparently came from the 4th or 5th floor.
>
> i.e. Adams's 4th or 2nd is *not* matched by the 12:36 transmission's
> 4th or 5th. In order to find a "2nd" somewhere we must keep Adams by
> that radio for several minutes more - contrary to her own testimony
> that she re-entered the building within 5 minutes of the shooting.
>
building by about that time. I care less when she re-entered than
when she was back at the front. Perhaps Styles also mis-estimated
when she said she & Adams didn't reach the 1st floor until about
12:37!
>
> >>>>>>I offer James Worrell, who said a guy came out the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after the shooting.<<<<<<
>
> Worrell reached his vantage point seconds after the shooting - which
> is why he recalled seeing Adams & Styles tearing out of the building
> shortly before the man.
> No wait, he didn't.
>
shooting! Yes, he did! Must admit I don't trust Worrell, Rachley or
Romack here....
> >>>>>>How'd Romack & Rackley miss *him*?<<<<<<
>
> How indeed?
>
> ***
>
> >>>>>>(Plus Shelley, who--to put Adams' return to the TSBD *way back* said that Truly & Baker entered first, *3 minutes* after the shooting! Hilarious.)<<<<<<
>
> If that was their intention, they could have simply added on another 3
> minutes to their little excursion over by the railroad tracks. Much
> cleaner.
> The problems with Shelley & Lovelady's testimony - and I don't dispute
> that there *are* problems - surely stem from Oswald's (reported) claim
> to have spoken with Shelley out front as he was leaving the TSBD.
>
> ***
>
> >>>>>>Radio sez she was there by 12:36.<<<<<<
>
> 12:36 = several minutes + a couple of minutes!
>
> ***
>
> >>>>>>Her companion conveniently waited to say anything until Adams had died & could not respond!<<<<<<
>
> All due respect, Don, but that's nonsense. Sandra Styles was contacted
> out of the blue by a researcher who had no idea that Adams had
> recently passed away. The timing was not of her choosing.
The fact remains that, whatever the other circumstances, she did not speak
out until after she knew that Adams had died. And was it about 40 years
before *anyone* suggested that they ran to the front elevator first?
Grain o' salt required here....
dw
Sean Murphy
> Good you said "reported claim". The only source I see for the Shelley
> claim is Bookhout's "corrective" (as you put it below) report, which is
> highly suspect. Bookhout & Hosty both signed the joint, earlier report,
> which detailed Oswald's 2nd-floor soda run, but somehow omitted any
> mention of running into a cop in the lunchroom. Hence, the "corrective",
> or fiction. Would not trust anything in the solo report, which may not
> even have been written by Bookhout, but by someone who wanted to correct
> the no-cop lunchroom-non-encounter. Plus, by naming Shelley, Shelley could
> easily contradict "Oswald" or [insert name of FBI official] & log another
> "lie" for O....
Yes, Bookhout's solo report is suspect in its treatment of the second-
floor lunchroom. You've done some good work on this in the past,
showing how it 'improves upon' the joint Hosty-Bookhout account.
But I would be careful about dismissing the Shelley part. We have good
grounds to believe that Oswald was stopped as he was going out the
front entrance - and vouched for by a senior employee. Bookhout may be
trying to make this incident safe.
Shelley did of course contradict Oswald - and he and Lovelady were
literally all over the place as a result.
Sean Murphy
per
> Barnett's testimony, altho Worrell said he was there for 3 minutes before
> he saw the suspect. Barnett testified that he & his sergeant were at the
> back on Houston about 2-1/2 minutes after the shooting. Worrell apparently
> was not looking in that direction all the time....
Either that, or...
Sean Murphy
> > No mention of several reports; no indication of a pause by the radio
> > that lasted a couple of minutes.
>
> There wasn't a "pause"--there were several messages coming out every
> minute.
Sorry, I phrased that badly. By "a pause by the radio" I meant Adams's
"pause" (her word) *beside* the radio.
***
> > > > 4th + 2nd = "the same thing" as 4th + 5th???
>
> > > Clarification. Dispatchers heard "4th"--the first transcriber of the
> > > 12:36 message & the dispatcher who about 12:46 said the shots
> > > apparently came from the 4th or 5th floor.
>
> > i.e. Adams's 4th or 2nd is *not* matched by the 12:36 transmission's
> > 4th or 5th. In order to find a "2nd" somewhere we must keep Adams by
> > that radio for several minutes more - contrary to her own testimony
> > that she re-entered the building within 5 minutes of the shooting.
>
> Yes, she mis-estimated that time, but she was back to the front of the
> building by about that time. I care less when she re-entered than
> when she was back at the front. Perhaps Styles also mis-estimated
> when she said she & Adams didn't reach the 1st floor until about
> 12:37!
I repeat: 12:36 = several minutes + a couple of minutes!
How you can see 12:36 - the earliest *possible* broadcast - as
'confirming' Adams&Styles on the first floor by 12:31:15-12:31:30 is
still a mystery to me.
Styles never said 12:37, by the way - though even that would probably
have given them enough time to get round front for Brewer's broadcast.
***
>>>>>>Must admit I don't trust Worrell, Rachley or Romack here....<<<<<<
You don't trust Worrell? Don't offer him as a rebuttal to Rackley &
Romack then.
***
> The fact remains that, whatever the other circumstances, she did not speak
> out until after she knew that Adams had died. And was it about 40 years
> before *anyone* suggested that they ran to the front elevator first?
> Grain o' salt required here....
Not a single witness corroborates Adams, and several contradict her.
The earliest possible broadcast contradicts her. I know where I'm
sprinkling that grain o' salt.
But, by all means, continue to keep the faith if that is your wish.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> On Mar 21, 2:45 am, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Good you said "reported claim". The only source I see for the Shelley
> > claim is Bookhout's "corrective" (as you put it below) report, which is
> > highly suspect. Bookhout & Hosty both signed the joint, earlier report,
> > which detailed Oswald's 2nd-floor soda run, but somehow omitted any
> > mention of running into a cop in the lunchroom. Hence, the "corrective",
> > or fiction. Would not trust anything in the solo report, which may not
> > even have been written by Bookhout, but by someone who wanted to correct
> > the no-cop lunchroom-non-encounter. Plus, by naming Shelley, Shelley could
> > easily contradict "Oswald" or [insert name of FBI official] & log another
> > "lie" for O....
>
> Yes, Bookhout's solo report is suspect in its treatment of the second-
> floor lunchroom. You've done some good work on this in the past,
> showing how it 'improves upon' the joint Hosty-Bookhout account.
> But I would be careful about dismissing the Shelley part. We have good
> grounds to believe that Oswald was stopped as he was going out the
> front entrance - and vouched for by a senior employee.
That's where I would put the Baker/T/O encounter, near the front,
Truly then being the "senior employee"....
Bookhout may be
> trying to make this incident safe.
> Shelley did of course contradict Oswald - and he and Lovelady were
> literally all over the place as a result.
But to contradict O, S did not have to place himself in Tucson. He
could have stayed right where he apparently was & said he didn't give
O the hi sign to leave.
dw
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> On Mar 21, 2:49 am, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > No mention of several reports; no indication of a pause by the radio
> > > that lasted a couple of minutes.
>
> > There wasn't a "pause"--there were several messages coming out every
> > minute.
>
> Sorry, I phrased that badly. By "a pause by the radio" I meant Adams's
> "pause" (her word) *beside* the radio.
>
>
>
>
> > > > > 4th + 2nd = "the same thing" as 4th + 5th???
>
> > > > Clarification. Dispatchers heard "4th"--the first transcriber of the
> > > > 12:36 message & the dispatcher who about 12:46 said the shots
> > > > apparently came from the 4th or 5th floor.
>
> > > i.e. Adams's 4th or 2nd is *not* matched by the 12:36 transmission's
> > > 4th or 5th. In order to find a "2nd" somewhere we must keep Adams by
> > > that radio for several minutes more - contrary to her own testimony
> > > that she re-entered the building within 5 minutes of the shooting.
>
> > Yes, she mis-estimated that time, but she was back to the front of the
> > building by about that time. I care less when she re-entered than
> > when she was back at the front. Perhaps Styles also mis-estimated
> > when she said she & Adams didn't reach the 1st floor until about
> > 12:37!
>
> I repeat: 12:36 = several minutes + a couple of minutes!
> How you can see 12:36 - the earliest *possible* broadcast - as
> 'confirming' Adams&Styles on the first floor by 12:31:15-12:31:30 is
> still a mystery to me.
> Styles never said 12:37, by the way - though even that would probably
> have given them enough time to get round front for Brewer's broadcast.
>
first floor no *earlier* than, say, 12:37, & Styles said the FBI
reports were wrong, too conservative, with circa 12:34-5 & she & Adams
down to the 1st floor then, more like 12:37. So the timing of these 3
witnesses is clearly wrong, even if you have Adams hearing something
only as early as 12:38.
>
> >>>>>>Must admit I don't trust Worrell, Rachley or Romack here....<<<<<<
>
> You don't trust Worrell? Don't offer him as a rebuttal to Rackley &
> Romack then.
>
nothing to back any of them up & support one or the other.
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Sean -- Been mulling over your paragraph here for a few days. Shelley
& Lovelady tried everything, including, as you note, the "cleaner"
island/railroad-tracks padding:
"Shelley & myself [Lovelady] stayed in that area for approx. 5
minutes"--FBI int. 3/19/64
A day earlier, Shelley was even bolder:
Here, he & Lovelady went with officers "to the railroad yards... and
returned thru the west side door of the building about 10 minutes
later." (3/18 FBI int.)
Further, note that Lovelady prefaces this 5-minute trip with a 3-
minute wait at the front of the TSBD:
He testified that it was "approx. 3 minutes" before Gloria Calvary
came up to the TSBD & he & Shelley started to the "island". (p339)
So, Lovelady would have the two returning to the TSBD at about 12:38,
Shelley about 12:40.
From any angle, Shelley is off; Lovelady is too, since V. Adams
probably heard "4th" on the police radio at 12:36. At the earliest,
S&L have Adams & Styles down to the 1st floor about 12:38!
Impossible, since Adams was down to the 1st & around to the front by
at least 12:38, & most likely about 12:36. And in high heels, Adams &
Styles would have taken at least a few minutes to get around the
building.
Yet further, Lovelady's original 11/22 affidavit suggests that he &
Shelley did not go *anywhere*, for any length of time, before first
going back into the building:
"I heard 3 shots.... After it was over we went back into the
building."
Nothing about trekking over to the island, then to the tracks.
Both Shelley & Lovelady have Baker & Truly entering the TSBD 3 minutes
after the shooting. Of course, this is ridiculous. Why these 3
minutes? My educated guess is that the two indeed (as Lovelady
suggests) went right back into the TSBD, stayed for 3 minutes, *then*
set to wandering, *after* Calvary told them that the "President had
been shot". So, both of them overcompensate by saying Baker & Truly
didn't enter until about 12:33, when they--Shelley & Lovelady--left.
> The problems with Shelley & Lovelady's testimony - and I don't dispute
> that there *are* problems - surely stem from Oswald's (reported) claim
> to have spoken with Shelley out front as he was leaving the TSBD.
>
Probably not. Certainly not "surely". Remember, Shelley only had to
contradict Oswald re telling the latter he could leave; Shelley didn't
have to resituate himself an inch. Why go out of the way & end up
contradicting the verifiable timing of Baker into the TSBD? And it's
always *both* Shelley & Lovelady, not just Shelley, who do that weird
traveling, or rather that weird timing of the traveling of he,
Lovelady, Baker & Truly. And it's both Shelley & Lovelady that Adams
reports seeing on the 1st floor. Shelley & Lovelady have to resituate
themselves until 12:38....
dw
PS More on Styles, Baker & Truly when I next find time!
Sean Murphy
> Sean -- Been mulling over your paragraph here for a few days. Shelley
> & Lovelady tried everything, including, as you note, the "cleaner"
> island/railroad-tracks padding:
> "Shelley & myself [Lovelady] stayed in that area for approx. 5
> minutes"--FBI int. 3/19/64
> A day earlier, Shelley was even bolder:
> Here, he & Lovelady went with officers "to the railroad yards... and
> returned thru the west side door of the building about 10 minutes
> later." (3/18 FBI int.)
>
> Further, note that Lovelady prefaces this 5-minute trip with a 3-
> minute wait at the front of the TSBD:
> He testified that it was "approx. 3 minutes" before Gloria Calvary
> came up to the TSBD & he & Shelley started to the "island". (p339)
> So, Lovelady would have the two returning to the TSBD at about 12:38,
> Shelley about 12:40.
Don---, Shelley & Lovelady's 3-4 minute estimate for Baker & Truly's
entry into the TSBD is pretty bizarre alright. But it may be no more
than a mutually reinforced error. Other examples of witnesses
elongating time out of all proportion are not that hard to find.
One reason I say this is that if 3-4 minutes was a deliberate
deception, it was outlandishly stupid: any number of people could (and
did) contradict them with a much, much earlier timestamp.
A westward excursion, on the other hand, involves no such risk.
Incidentally, it's interesting that Lovelady - with his conspicuous
plaid shirt - doesn't appear in any images caught around the railroad
tracks. Of course absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence,
but...
>
> From any angle, Shelley is off; Lovelady is too, since V. Adams
> probably heard "4th" on the police radio at 12:36. At the earliest,
> S&L have Adams & Styles down to the 1st floor about 12:38!
> Impossible, since Adams was down to the 1st & around to the front by
> at least 12:38, & most likely about 12:36. And in high heels, Adams &
> Styles would have taken at least a few minutes to get around the
> building.
A few minutes? This from two women who had just got from the front
window of the fourth floor to the first floor in under a minute? You
can't apply skids and brakes at will!
> Yet further, Lovelady's original 11/22 affidavit suggests that he &
> Shelley did not go *anywhere*, for any length of time, before first
> going back into the building:
> "I heard 3 shots.... After it was over we went back into the
> building."
> Nothing about trekking over to the island, then to the tracks.
Indeed.
> Both Shelley & Lovelady have Baker & Truly entering the TSBD 3 minutes
> after the shooting. Of course, this is ridiculous. Why these 3
> minutes? My educated guess is that the two indeed (as Lovelady
> suggests) went right back into the TSBD, stayed for 3 minutes, *then*
> set to wandering, *after* Calvary told them that the "President had
> been shot".
>So, both of them overcompensate by saying Baker & Truly
> didn't enter until about 12:33, when they--Shelley & Lovelady--left.
But by mentioning Gloria Calvary, Shelley & Lovelady are already
making a nonsense of their 3-4 minute Baker-Truly estimate. This
reinforces the likelihood that that estimate was based on erroneous
subjective time.
***
>
> > The problems with Shelley & Lovelady's testimony - and I don't dispute
> > that there *are* problems - surely stem from Oswald's (reported) claim
> > to have spoken with Shelley out front as he was leaving the TSBD.
>
> Probably not. Certainly not "surely". Remember, Shelley only had to
> contradict Oswald re telling the latter he could leave; Shelley didn't
> have to resituate himself an inch.
If Shelley bore responsibility for letting Oswald leave, he would have
been extremely anxious not to lend any credence to Oswald's claim.
Admitting that he was indeed at the front entrance while Oswald was
leaving would have done just that.
It's interesting that Lovelady shows up on the front steps in the
Hughes film. He's smoking a cigarette. Vehicles are not yet parked
around the front entrance, so the timestamp is pretty soon after the
shooting.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> On Mar 24, 8:55 pm, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sean -- Been mulling over your paragraph here for a few days. Shelley
> > & Lovelady tried everything, including, as you note, the "cleaner"
> > island/railroad-tracks padding:
> > "Shelley & myself [Lovelady] stayed in that area for approx. 5
> > minutes"--FBI int. 3/19/64
> > A day earlier, Shelley was even bolder:
> > Here, he & Lovelady went with officers "to the railroad yards... and
> > returned thru the west side door of the building about 10 minutes
> > later." (3/18 FBI int.)
>
> > Further, note that Lovelady prefaces this 5-minute trip with a 3-
> > minute wait at the front of the TSBD:
> > He testified that it was "approx. 3 minutes" before Gloria Calvary
> > came up to the TSBD & he & Shelley started to the "island". (p339)
> > So, Lovelady would have the two returning to the TSBD at about 12:38,
> > Shelley about 12:40.
>
> Don---, Shelley & Lovelady's 3-4 minute estimate for Baker & Truly's
> entry into the TSBD is pretty bizarre alright. But it may be no more
> than a mutually reinforced error. Other examples of witnesses
> elongating time out of all proportion are not that hard to find.
This time expansion, however, eliminates both witnesses as credible
challenges to Adams.
dw
(Forgive the belated reply here, but I had to do income taxes this
week....)
> One reason I say this is that if 3-4 minutes was a deliberate
> deception, it was outlandishly stupid: any number of people could (and
> did) contradict them with a much, much earlier timestamp.
> A westward excursion, on the other hand, involves no such risk.
> Incidentally, it's interesting that Lovelady - with his conspicuous
> plaid shirt - doesn't appear in any images caught around the railroad
> tracks. Of course absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence,
> but...
>
>
>
> > From any angle, Shelley is off; Lovelady is too, since V. Adams
> > probably heard "4th" on the police radio at 12:36. At the earliest,
> > S&L have Adams & Styles down to the 1st floor about 12:38!
> > Impossible, since Adams was down to the 1st & around to the front by
> > at least 12:38, & most likely about 12:36. And in high heels, Adams &
> > Styles would have taken at least a few minutes to get around the
> > building.
>
> A few minutes? This from two women who had just got from the front
> window of the fourth floor to the first floor in under a minute? You
> can't apply skids and brakes at will!
They weren't looking for anyone *in* the building. Both Adams &
Styles said in their March FBI interviews that they saw people running
& lying down outside & they wanted to know what was going on out
there. So it seems natural they'd exit quickly, then go less quickly
outside. They weren't running a race around the building, but they
were in a hurry to get out.
>
> > Yet further, Lovelady's original 11/22 affidavit suggests that he &
> > Shelley did not go *anywhere*, for any length of time, before first
> > going back into the building:
> > "I heard 3 shots.... After it was over we went back into the
> > building."
> > Nothing about trekking over to the island, then to the tracks.
>
> Indeed.
>
> > Both Shelley & Lovelady have Baker & Truly entering the TSBD 3 minutes
> > after the shooting. Of course, this is ridiculous. Why these 3
> > minutes? My educated guess is that the two indeed (as Lovelady
> > suggests) went right back into the TSBD, stayed for 3 minutes, *then*
> > set to wandering, *after* Calvary told them that the "President had
> > been shot".
> >So, both of them overcompensate by saying Baker & Truly
> > didn't enter until about 12:33, when they--Shelley & Lovelady--left.
>
> But by mentioning Gloria Calvary, Shelley & Lovelady are already
> making a nonsense of their 3-4 minute Baker-Truly estimate. This
> reinforces the likelihood that that estimate was based on erroneous
> subjective time.
>
And, again, erroneously, (or not) they throw the Adams/Styles timing
as far off as they throw the Baker/Truly timing.
>
>
>
> > > The problems with Shelley & Lovelady's testimony - and I don't dispute
> > > that there *are* problems - surely stem from Oswald's (reported) claim
> > > to have spoken with Shelley out front as he was leaving the TSBD.
>
> > Probably not. Certainly not "surely". Remember, Shelley only had to
> > contradict Oswald re telling the latter he could leave; Shelley didn't
> > have to resituate himself an inch.
>
> If Shelley bore responsibility for letting Oswald leave, he would have
> been extremely anxious not to lend any credence to Oswald's claim.
> Admitting that he was indeed at the front entrance while Oswald was
> leaving would have done just that.
So, then, he lied about being at the front entrance about 12:30, &
again about being around the elevators when Adams & Styles came down,
about 12:31. He was consistent!
>
> It's interesting that Lovelady shows up on the front steps in the
> Hughes film. He's smoking a cigarette. Vehicles are not yet parked
> around the front entrance, so the timestamp is pretty soon after the
> shooting.
>
But doesn't the famous Altgens photo have him out front *during* the
shooting?
> Sean- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -