Well, Miss Hine .. Miss Adams and Sandra Styles were in the building
Peter Fokes
hair or two.
Mr. Belin. You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went
down the stairs?
Miss Adams. I was running. We were running. [her and
Sandra Styles]
Mr. Belin. What kind of shoes did you have on? Miss Adams.
Three-inch heels.
.....
Mr. Belin. Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the
third to the second?
Miss Adams. That's correct.
Mr. Belin. As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?
Miss Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Belin. All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone
by the second floor?
Miss Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Belin. Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the
stairs towards the first floor?
Miss Adams. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar
as the time sequence, which we haven't done, ********what is your best
estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time
you got BACK to the building? **** How much time elapsed? If you have any
estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss Adams. I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.
Mr. Belin. Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation?
Miss Adams. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was
running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to
the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened
only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was
fired, and returned to the building.
[She was mighty mobile in those 3-inch heels let me tell you!]
Mr. Belin.
How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and
the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss Adams.
Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. Belin.
How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from
the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss Adams.
I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time
approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
{Well, Mrs. Reid was granted the stopwatch test. Was Miss Adams?]
Mr. Belin.
How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the
bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss Adams.
I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. Belin.
So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth
floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first
floor,was approximately 1 minute?
Miss Adams. Yes, approximately.
<quote off>
Running, running, running.... must have been a rather unforgettable
experience for Victoria. She could have tripped and fallen down those
stairs with those heels on. Then she ran here and there before....going
back in the building.
Is there any other witness who could verify or dispute Adams claim?
Someone who actually RAN DOWN the stairs with her?
Someone right next to her the whole time?
Someone who corroborate this crucial timing issue?
Someone who ran around to the front of the building with her?
Not that I doubt her.
Yup...
Sandra Styles.
Here is her testimony:
<quote on> <quote off>
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
seanmu...@gmail.com
Peter,
I spoke with Sandra Styles last summer ('08). Here is what she told me:
[QUOTE]
I watched the motorcade from a south-facing window on the fourth floor of
the Texas School Book Depository. With me was one of my Scott Foresman
colleagues, Victoria Adams (who sadly passed away last year). When the
shooting took place, we were not even aware at first that it was a
shooting. It sounded like fireworks. President Kennedy was obscured from
our view at the critical moments by tree foliage. All I could make out in
those moments was the pink of Mrs. Kennedy's suit.
Contrary to what Vickie told the Warren Commission, she and I did NOT go
to the rear stairs within a minute or so of the shooting. First, we
lingered by the window for quite some time, trying to determine what was
going on outside. Things were very confused. Next, we made an attempt to
take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however,
this elevator - which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the
fourth floor - did not come when we called it.
It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going
towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly -
we were wearing high-heel shoes!
While we were still in the office area, our view of the rear stairs was
blocked by partitions. Anyone could have come down those stairs without us
knowing about it.
All this time we had absolutely no idea that shots might have come from
the Depository building. As a result, I was paying very little attention
to what was going on inside the building in those first few minutes after
the assassination.
If the Warren Report estimated that Vickie and I reached the first floor
via the rear stairs some 4 or 5 minutes after the shooting, then I'd have
to say that sounds a little conservative. If anything, it was probably
longer. I have no clear recollection of seeing Bill Shelley or Billy
Lovelady (both of whom I had a passing acquaintance with) near the rear of
the building when we reached the first floor. I have a vague recollection
of seeing them at some point around the front entrance. But it's perfectly
possible we did see them where Vickie said we did - near the freight
elevator. I really wasn't paying much attention to people IN the building
- I thought all the action was outside.
It always puzzled me how Vickie seemed to exaggerate the speed with which
we went to the rear stairway. Although I was fond of her, I guess she was
what you might call a 'person of drama'. I found the version of events she
told people somewhat sensationalistic and at odds with my own memory of
those minutes. I simply stated what I recalled, but I didn't contradict
her because I felt I couldn't say what she saw or didn't see; just because
I didn't recall it the same way did not mean she was in error necessarily.
I am not that noble a person that I would not have contradicted her to the
interviewers had it been necessary.
Why was Vickie the only one called to testify before the Warren
Commission? I don't know. My recollection has always been that I WAS
interrogated by a representative from the Warren Commission very briefly
in our office, but there was no follow-up, whereas she was questioned more
than once. I have wondered whether it might have been that her testimony
required more investigation and mine was more plausible or I was less
positive in my recollections than she. It is true, however, that I have
always shied from the limelight, especially in this particular time in
history!
Vickie was a very friendly and gregarious person, while I am more reserved
and less outgoing. She may have exaggerated some points, while I was
cautious about what I said, not wanting to mislead. In some instances, her
version might be more accurate.
[UNQUOTE]
Regards,
Sean Murphy
John McAdams
Well I'll be boiled in oil!
Instead of the usual bickering over the same stale body of evidence,
we actually have *new* data introduced into the discussion.
The Styles testimony which Murphy posted is indeed consistent with the
WC conclusion when they studied this issue.
It's also consistent with what a student of mine concluded when he
tediously went through the details of the testimony of all the parties
involved.
But it's good to have a data point derived from asking the right
question and getting an on-point reply.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Sean Murphy
Last summer ('08) I had a lengthy telephone conversation, followed by
an e-mail exchange, with Sandra Styles. Here is what she told me:
[QUOTE]
[UNQUOTE]
This information was first posted on the Lancer forum on July 27th 2008.
Regards
Sean Murphy
Dublin
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Couldn't have been. In fact, they must have left the floor
*earlier*. Because Adams testified that after the two went out the
back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
That was Sgt Harkness, & yes, it's hard to tell if he's saying 3rd or
4th, & the dispatcher later sez the shots apparently came from the 3rd
or 4th floor. (He couldn't tell either.) Harkness' call was at
12:36, which means that Adams' timetable is more accurate than
Styles. The two were out front by 12:36, not just reaching the first
floor....
dw
tomnln
"Sean Murphy" <seanmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5a4cd9c1-d81b-458c...@e3g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
Sean Murphy
back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
No, Harkness says fifth.
Besides, here's Adams's testimony:
"I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they
said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the
second floor or the fourth floor window".
Nothing about third floor.
She is clearly recalling either Brewer ("We have a man here who says
he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second
floor from the southeast corner of that depository building") or, less
likely, Hill ("It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm
Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the
end."). Both of these broadcasts came after 12:37pm.
Sean
Peter Fokes
Thank you, Sean.
How is Sandra? Did you ask her if the WC ever spoke to her? Or the
FBI?
It doesn't seem we have any contemporaneous account by Sandra of the
events on Nov. 22.
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>>>>...Adams testified that after the two went out the
>
> back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
> a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
> That was Sgt Harkness...<<<<<
>
> No, Harkness says fifth.
I misspoke, as I am wont to do if I don't actually check my sources. Yes,
VA said 2nd or 4th. And Harkness said either 4th or 5th. I've listened
to that broadcast many times & can't say for sure which it is, & neither
could the dispatcher, who at 12:46 tells Insp Sawyer "It did come from
about the 5th or 4th floor'". Adams was on the 4th floor, & she heard
"4th" & got scared. She heard Harkness at 12:36.
dw
Peter Fokes
Rereading her comments, I notice she does say "was interrogated by a
representative from the Warren Commission very briefly
in our office, but there was no follow-up."
> It doesn't seem we have any contemporaneous account by Sandra of the
> events on Nov. 22.
According to James DiEugenio, "when Adams read her testimony, she was
surprised to see that it said she started down the stairs 30-60
seconds after the shots. She immediately went to the U.S. Attorney's
office in Dallas and had it corrected to 15-20 seconds ..."
DiEugenio notes that the FBI DID talk to Styles, "but her interview is
not filed with interviews of the other TSBD employees." He points out
that Bugliosi "alludes to a location for this interview in the
Commission volumes, but the source for it appears to be wrong."
DeEugenio also writes: "Adams originally said that when she got off
the stairs she noticed employee Bill shelley and Billy Lovelady, and
told them what she had seen from the window. But the Warren Report
said that the two men had been to the railroad yards at the time of
the shooting and then returned to the TSBD, so Adams had to be wroong
about the timing of her run down the stairs, Yet in the FBI interviews
and Dallas Police interviews that Shelley and Lovelady gave on the day
of the assassination there is no mention of them running to the
railroad yards after the shots."
See:
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v5n2/v5n2dieugenio2.pdf
Styles did not hear the shots? That's interesting. Geneva Hine said
the shots were so loud it caused the building to vibrate!
Again, thanks for your comments.
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Sean Murphy
Don,
Adams's testimony - "they said that shots had been fired which
apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor
window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the
fourth floor." - includes the elements: second, fourth & window. Even
granting a phonetic ambiguity to Harkness's "fifth"/"fourth" @ 12:36,
it is hard to find a coherent match in Adams's recollection.
Brewer's post-12:37 transmission is another matter: "We have a man
here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off
of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository
building". Adams is hearing 'second' & 'window' - and quite reasonably
deducing that 'second floor from the southeast corner' may mean
'second floor from the top' (i.e. fourth floor). Hence her "panic".
That she recalls having heard explicit use of the word "second" is
established beyond doubt in her response to Belin's follow-up:
"Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - *It said second floor.* So then I decided maybe I had
better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---"
No mention of anything approximating 'second floor' or 'window' in
Harkness's broadcast.
Sean
Sean Murphy
> > FBI?
> Rereading her comments, I notice she does say "was interrogated by a
> representative from the Warren Commission very briefly
> in our office, but there was no follow-up."
> > It doesn't seem we have any contemporaneous account by Sandra of the
> > events on Nov. 22.
Peter, Sandra impressed me as someone with zero personal interest in
publicity or attention. At no point did she try to speculate beyond
her own immediate experiences or recollections.
Here FWIW is a March 64 statement which she gave to the F.B.I.:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=90
> Styles did not hear the shots? That's interesting. Geneva Hine said
> the shots were so loud it caused the building to vibrate!
Sandra did hear the shots, she just thought they must be fireworks.
She had no idea where the noise was coming from.
Regards,
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> On Mar 10, 1:38 am, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Sean Murphy <seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>>>>...Adams testified that after the two went out the
>
> > > back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
> > > a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
> > > That was Sgt Harkness...<<<<<
>
> > > No, Harkness says fifth.
>
> > I misspoke, as I am wont to do if I don't actually check my sources. Yes,
> > VA said 2nd or 4th. And Harkness said either 4th or 5th. I've listened
> > to that broadcast many times & can't say for sure which it is, & neither
> > could the dispatcher, who at 12:46 tells Insp Sawyer "It did come from
> > about the 5th or 4th floor'". Adams was on the 4th floor, & she heard
> > "4th" & got scared. She heard Harkness at 12:36.
>
> > dw
>
> Don,
>
> Adams's testimony - "they said that shots had been fired which
> apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor
> window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the
> fourth floor." - includes the elements: second, fourth & window. Even
> granting a phonetic ambiguity to Harkness's "fifth"/"fourth" @ 12:36,
> it is hard to find a coherent match in Adams's recollection.
>
The dispatcher heard "4th" or "5th"; Adams heard "4th"--match.
dw
> Brewer's post-12:37 transmission is another matter: "We have a man
> here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off
> of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository
> building". Adams is hearing 'second' & 'window' - and quite reasonably
> deducing that 'second floor from the southeast corner' may mean
> 'second floor from the top' (i.e. fourth floor).
No -- "2nd floor from the top" would be the 6th floor. Not even
close.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 10, 1:38 am, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> ...Adams testified that after the two went out the
>>> back of the building, then returned to the front, she heard someone at
>>> a police radio saying that the shots came from the 3rd or 4th floor.
>>> That was Sgt Harkness...<<<<<
>>> No, Harkness says fifth.
>> I misspoke, as I am wont to do if I don't actually check my sources. Yes,
>> VA said 2nd or 4th. And Harkness said either 4th or 5th. I've listened
>> could the dispatcher, who at 12:46 tells Insp Sawyer "It did come from
>> "4th"& got scared. She heard Harkness at 12:36.
>>
>> dw
>
> Don,
>
> Adams's testimony - "they said that shots had been fired which
> apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor
> window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the
> granting a phonetic ambiguity to Harkness's "fifth"/"fourth" @ 12:36,
> it is hard to find a coherent match in Adams's recollection.
>
WOW, she panicked. Maybe she thought they were going to charge HER with
the assassination!
Sean Murphy
> The dispatcher heard "4th" or "5th"; Adams heard "4th"--match.
> dw
Don,
But Adams didn't just recall "4th", she recalled "2nd floor" and "window"
also. How do you match these elements with Harkness's "I have a witness
that says that it came from the Xth floor of the Texas Book Depository
Store" (even granting that Adams *may* have heard 'X' as '4')?
>No -- "2nd floor from the top" would be the 6th floor. Not even close.<
If 7th floor is top, then 6th is one from the top and 5th second from the
top. In her panic, Adams may have been out by one. Alternatively, she may
have counted the sixth floor as the top working floor and, in her panic,
counted two floors down from there to 4th.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > Sean--
> > The dispatcher heard "4th" or "5th"; Adams heard "4th"--match.
> > dw
>
> Don,
>
> But Adams didn't just recall "4th", she recalled "2nd floor" and "window"
> also. How do you match these elements with Harkness's "I have a witness
> that says that it came from the Xth floor of the Texas Book Depository
> Store" (even granting that Adams *may* have heard 'X' as '4')?
But "2nd floor" was Brewer's, wasn't it? Adams heard *two* messages. I've
always wondered why, if she panicked, she waited a minute or two after
hearing "4th" (Harkness) & heard "2nd" (Brewer)....
>
> >No -- "2nd floor from the top" would be the 6th floor. Not even close.
<
>
> If 7th floor is top, then 6th is one from the top and 5th second from the
> top. In her panic, Adams may have been out by one. Alternatively, she may
> have counted the sixth floor as the top working floor and, in her panic,
> counted two floors down from there to 4th.
>
IF she did some calculating, we don't know *how* she did it--2nd from top
of building (6th) or 2nd from top floor (5th). But this is speculation
since she said nothing about calculating, just 2 floor numbers. She seems
to have panicked when she *heard* "4th", not when she figured, oh, 2nd,
two down, 4th, panic!
dw
Sean Murphy
> always wondered why, if she panicked, she waited a minute or two after
> hearing "4th" (Harkness) & heard "2nd" (Brewer)....<
Adams heard two messages? Very interesting suggestion - it would
certainly explain her strange hovering between "second" and "fourth".
However, her testimony suggests a much briefer pause on her part to
listen to the police radio. She talks of "report" in the singular.
Plus, as you say, "panic" would scarcely have induced her to hang
around for another couple of minutes...
Listening again to Harkness's "I have a witness that says that it came
from the Xth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store", I have been
wondering whether Adams could possibly have heard 'X' as "either
second or fourth". But 'second' does seem an awful stretch.
Of course, all of the broadcasts we have been discussing (12:36-12:38)
timestamp Vicky and Sandra's exit from the TSBD securely in line with
Sandra's recollection: several minutes post-shooting.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Sean -- Actually, they contradicts Styles. She said the reported 4-5
minutes to the 1st floor was "conservative"--it was probably longer than
that. But Adams was around the building & out front by that time, ie,
12:36.
dw
Sean Murphy
> minutes to the 1st floor was "conservative"--it was probably longer than
> that. But Adams was around the building & out front by that time, ie,
> 12:36.
Whoah there, Don.
The case for the 12:36 broadcast has been made, not proven. It remains
highly problematical - not least because, as you point out yourself,
it would force us to posit Adams's having remained by the radio long
enough to hear a second broadcast a couple of minutes later. When she
herself recalled nothing of the sort in her WC testimony.
Vicky Adams told the WC she found it hard to see how her re-entry into
the TSBD could have been later than 5 minutes after the shooting. She
was certainly wrong about that. On your own reckoning, she cannot have
re-entered the building less than some 8 minutes after the shooting.
I spoke of Sandra Styles's overall timeline. Even if one were to
suspend disbelief and posit 12:36 as the first broadcast Vicky heard,
how does that discredit Sandra's timeline? She said it took several
minutes after the shooting for her and Vicky to reach the first floor
- and several minutes is supported by *all* possible broadcasts. Now,
while Sandra felt that 4-5 minutes sounded a little conservative, she
at no point ruled it out. She said "probably" not "definitely" a
little longer than that. What she was quite insistent on, however, was
the absolute impossibility of her and Vicky having ran for those rear
stairs anything close to 15-30 seconds after the shooting.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > Sean -- Actually, they contradicts Styles. She said the reported 4-5
> > minutes to the 1st floor was "conservative"--it was probably longer than
> > that. But Adams was around the building & out front by that time, ie,
> > 12:36.
>
> Whoah there, Don.
>
> The case for the 12:36 broadcast has been made, not proven. It remains
> highly problematical - not least because, as you point out yourself,
> it would force us to posit Adams's having remained by the radio long
> enough to hear a second broadcast a couple of minutes later. When she
> herself recalled nothing of the sort in her WC testimony.
Yo there, Sean -- I think the 12:36 time is pretty much settled. The
very first transcription of the DPD radio logs (11/22 I believe) was
very sketchy. In fact, the transcriber got only two words from
Harkness' 12:36 message. But those two words were: "4th floor"!
(jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us) He heard the same thing that Adams heard. Why
she waited...? Perhaps she was too stunned to move for a few
minutes. But she & the first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor"... at
12:36....
dw
Sean Murphy
> very first transcription of the DPD radio logs (11/22 I believe) was
> very sketchy. In fact, the transcriber got only two words from
> Harkness' 12:36 message. But those two words were: "4th floor"!
> (jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us) He heard the same thing that Adams heard. Why
> she waited...? Perhaps she was too stunned to move for a few
> minutes. But she & the first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor"... at
> 12:36....
> dw
"Miss ADAMS: ...I paused-there to listen to the report on the police
radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came
either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I
panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor."
So Adams hears "fourth" - her floor - at 12:36. She stays put. She hears
"second" - not her floor - at 12:38. She panics!
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Sean -- The main point is she was in front of the TSBD by the time the
cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
dw
Peter Fokes
<quote on>
Miss Adams. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was
running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to
the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone,
listened
only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was
fired, and returned to the building.
<quote off>
How could they have run to the railroad tracks, and returned to the
front of the building to hear the
cop say the "4th" by 12:36 pm UNLESS they left the building el pronto
after the shooting?
Doesn't seem to me Styles and Adams had time to "linger" in the
building, run down the stairs, run to the railroad tracks and return
to the front of the building
to hear this cop UNLESS they left within seconds.
Adams was so adamant she had the investigator revise her statement,
and that request came soon after the events.
Styles is recalling her impressions decades after the incident.
Now, be honest with yourself, how accurate is your memory a few days
after an event and then decades after an event?
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Sean Murphy
> cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
> when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
> the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
> dw
Don,
*If* you're right about 12:36 - and, sorry, it's still a whopping big if -
it merely means that Styles and Adams hit the first floor some 4-5 minutes
after the shots. How you can see that as supporting Adams's timetable (we
reached the first floor within 75-90 seconds of the shooting) over
Styles's (we reached the first floor at least 4-5 minutes after the
shooting) is beyond me.
Sean
Sean Murphy
> front of the building to hear the
> cop say the "4th" by 12:36 pm UNLESS they left the building el pronto
> after the shooting?
Peter,
It's far from clear that Adams did hear the 12:36 broadcast. But even if
she did...
She & Styles exited by the Houston Street dock. From there to the first
set of railroad tracks was a very short distance indeed - cf 4:20-4:28 of
this clip from the 1978 television movie "Ruby and Oswald" (which, unless
I am very much mistaken, was shot on location and represents no major
landscape change from 1963): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2ckz_BEfk
> Styles is recalling her impressions decades after the incident.
>
> Now, be honest with yourself, how accurate is your memory a few days
> after an event and then decades after an event?
And Sandra took great pains in our conversation to disclaim infallibility.
Where her memory was hazy she immediately said so. On one point however
she was quite insistent: no way did Vicky and she go to those rear stairs
within a minute of the shooting. They lingered by the window; they tried
to call the front elevator. Unless she is making this up out of whole
cloth, there is simply no way Adams's timeline can be correct. And,
crucially, it is Styles's timeline of several minutes which *all* proposed
radio broadcasts support.
Best,
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > Sean -- The main point is she was in front of the TSBD by the time the
>
> > cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
> > when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
> > the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
> > dw
>
> Don,
>
> *If* you're right about 12:36 - and, sorry, it's still a whopping big if
No longer. The first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor" at 12:36--
those were the only words he heard to a certainty, the only words that
he could transcribe!
dw
> it merely means that Styles and Adams hit the first floor some 4-5 minutes
> after the shots.
...And then it took them only about a minute & a half to go out the
back, go to the west side of the building, then go around to the
front?? I thot you were protesting (or SS was) that they were in high
heels & couldn't get around that fast! Now, they're speed demons!
And I'll go further--it's unlikely that Adams got to the front *just
in time* to hear "4th floor" at 12:36. She probably got there a
little before that time even....
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> > How could they have run to the railroad tracks, and returned to the
> > front of the building to hear the
> > cop say the "4th" by 12:36 pm UNLESS they left the building el pronto
> > after the shooting?
>
> Peter,
>
> It's far from clear that Adams did hear the 12:36 broadcast. But even if
> she did...
>
> She & Styles exited by the Houston Street dock. From there to the first
> set of railroad tracks was a very short distance indeed - cf 4:20-4:28 of
> this clip from the 1978 television movie "Ruby and Oswald" (which, unless
> I am very much mistaken, was shot on location and represents no major
> landscape change from 1963):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2ckz_BEfk
>
> > Styles is recalling her impressions decades after the incident.
>
> > Now, be honest with yourself, how accurate is your memory a few days
> > after an event and then decades after an event?
>
> And Sandra took great pains in our conversation to disclaim infallibility.
> Where her memory was hazy she immediately said so. On one point however
> she was quite insistent: no way did Vicky and she go to those rear stairs
> within a minute of the shooting.
*Someone* was worried about Adams' story. Patrolman Baker originally
said that he called the suspect back to the stairway, where Truly
cleared him. Not until Saturday does *Truly* situate the encounter
off the stairwell & in the lunchroom. *Someone* didn't want Baker/
Truly/Oswald on the stairway at the same time as Adams....
dw
They lingered by the window; they tried
> to call the front elevator.
The contemporary Styles ('64?) said nothing about first going to the
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 15, 7:06 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Sean -- The main point is she was in front of the TSBD by the time the
>>
>>> cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
>>> when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
>>> the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
>>> dw
>>
>> Don,
>>
>> *If* you're right about 12:36 - and, sorry, it's still a whopping big if
>
> No longer. The first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor" at 12:36--
> those were the only words he heard to a certainty, the only words that
> he could transcribe!
We have always had problems with the DPD transcriptions. We can not rely
on them for facts.
> dw
>> it merely means that Styles and Adams hit the first floor some 4-5 minutes
>> after the shots.
>
> ...And then it took them only about a minute& a half to go out the
> back, go to the west side of the building, then go around to the
> front?? I thot you were protesting (or SS was) that they were in high
> heels& couldn't get around that fast! Now, they're speed demons!
Sean Murphy
Sure, but did Adams? Only if we cherry-pick her actual testimony:
She spoke of one report, not two.
She stressed the brevity of her "pause" by the police motorcycle.
The one report she did hear was ambiguous. It indicated that the shots
came "either from the second floor or the fourth floor window."
This does not match the 12:36 "fifth/fourth floor" broadcast.
She panicked at the report she had just heard, not at an earlier one
("fourth) which now appeared to be overridden by the latest
information ("second").
Why did she panic? Because the one ambiguous report she had just heard
carried the possible implication of the fourth floor being involved.
Of one thing Adams was sure: the one ambiguous report she heard
contained the words "second floor". This, as she correctly inferred,
mightn't necessarily mean second floor *up*...
All of this matches Brewer's post-12:37 broadcast.
***
>>>> ...And then it took them only about a minute & a half to go out the back, go to the west side of the building, then go around to the front??<<<<
Why not? How long do you estimate it takes to walk from the back to
the front of the TSBD?
***
>>>>I thot you were protesting (or SS was) that they were in high heels & couldn't get around that fast!
Adams herself told the WC she was wearing three-inch heels.
***
>>>>> And I'll go further--it's unlikely that Adams got to the front *just in time* to hear "4th floor" at 12:36.<<<<
OK, but by the same token it's unlikely the dispatcher's "12:36" means
12:36:00. But all that's academic - she probably never heard that
particular broadcast in the first place.
Sean
Sean Murphy
Don, the Baker-Truly affair is indeed a mess - you'll get no argument
from me on that. But Adams-Styles are neither here nor there. They
missed the action.
***
>>>>>Not until Saturday does *Truly* situate the encounter off the stairwell & in the lunchroom.<<<<<<
Late Friday.
Sean
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> On 3/16/2009 11:01 AM, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Mar 15, 7:06 pm, Sean Murphy<seanmurphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Sean -- The main point is she was in front of the TSBD by the time the
>
> >>> cop seemed (to more than one person) to say "4th"--this was 12:36,
> >>> when Styles said they were just about reaching the ground floor from
> >>> the 4th! So much for SS's (very) belated observations....
> >>> dw
>
> >> Don,
>
> >> *If* you're right about 12:36 - and, sorry, it's still a whopping big if
>
> > No longer. The first DPD transcriber heard "4th floor" at 12:36--
> > those were the only words he heard to a certainty, the only words that
> > he could transcribe!
>
> We have always had problems with the DPD transcriptions. We can not rely
> on them for facts.
>
Victoria Adams heard "4th floor" at 12:36 & so did the first police
transcriber. Myself, I find it hard to say whether Harkness is saying
4th or 5th, so it's not surprising that a person on the 4th floor
would hear 4th, & wouldn't have been surprising if someone on the 5th
heard 5th....
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>>>>*Someone* was worried about Adams' story. Patrolman Baker originally said that he called the suspect back to the stairway, where Truly cleared him.<<<<<<<<<
>
> Don, the Baker-Truly affair is indeed a mess - you'll get no argument
> from me on that. But Adams-Styles are neither here nor there. They
> missed the action.
>
were on the 1st floor when she came down. Why invoke the names of two
eminently interviewable depository personnel unless they were in fact
there? Easy enuf for them to deny it, you would think. In fact,
however, they had the devil's own time denying they were back in there
so shortly after the shooting--poor Shelley had Baker & Truly entering
the front door "3 or 4 minutes" after the shots were fired (v6p329).
Boy, yes, that would then set Adams & Styles back 5 or 6 minutes! Or
it would if Shelley hadn't shot himself in the foot with the Baker-
Truly timing!
dw
> ***
>
> >>>>>Not until Saturday does *Truly* situate the encounter off the stairwell & in the lunchroom.<<<<<<
>
> Late Friday.
His county affidavit is dated the 23rd (Sat.). Do you know of an
earlier Truly statement?
> Sean
Sean Murphy
> were on the 1st floor when she came down. Why invoke the names of two
> eminently interviewable depository personnel unless they were in fact
> there?
Ah, but someone else had already invoked Bill Shelley's name, putting
him out front...
***
>>>>>> His county affidavit is dated the 23rd (Sat.). Do you know of an
earlier Truly statement?<<<<<<<<
The F.B.I. interviewed Truly 11/22, at some point after Oswald's first
interrogation session. This appears to be the very first mention anywhere
of a second-floor lunchroom incident:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95616&relPageId=74
As such, it provides an interesting bridge between the joint Bookhout-
Hosty interrogation report and Bookhout's solo 'supplement'.
Sean