Re: THE PARAFFIN TEST
John McAdams
>THE PARAFFIN TEST
>
> At about 2:50 pm, suspected of having killed officer Tippit, Oswald
>was given a paraffin test on both hands and his right cheek to
>determine whether or not he had fired a weapon. When a handgun is
>fired, the explosion of the gunpowder causes a dispersion of nitrates
>on the hand in which it is held.
>
> In reality, the paraffin test shows the presence of oxidizers.
>Nitrates are one of many oxidizers.
> The WCR, Appendix X, "The Paraffin Test." wrote:
>
> "In fact, however, the test is completely unreliable in determining
>either whether a person has recently fired a weapon or whether he has
>not. On the one hand, diphenylamine and diphenylbenzidine will react
>positively not only with nitrates from gunpowder residues, but nitrates
>from other sources and most oxidizing agents, including dichromates,
>permanganates, hypochlorates, periodares, and some oxides."
>
> In other words, the test is unreliable only if the results are
>POSITIVE. A NEGATIVE result is PROOF that there are no oxidizers on the
>body, in this case, the cheek.
That's just silly.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid2.htm
>
> When a rifle is fired, those nitrates escape during the period of the
>firing sequence that the chamber is open to eject/load the cartridges.
>In this test, a paraffin cast is applied to the hands and (if the
>weapon used is a rifle) the cheeks of the suspect. A positive reaction
>turns the paraffin blue, indicating the presence of nitrates. No change
>in color indicates no presence of nitrates. Although there are many
>oxidants which could produce a positive reading, a negative reading is
>CONCLUSIVE evidence that the suspect did NOT fire a weapon and is
>innocent. The paraffin test results were reliable enough that they were
>regularly used as evidence in criminal cases by prosecutors around the
>country.
>
If so, that doesn't speak well for the criminal justice system, since
even by 1963 the test was known to be unreliable.
> Oswald's test results showed signs of nitrates on his hands, but no
>evidence of nitrates on his right cheek. The fact that the test showed
>no nitrates on Oswald's cheek was kept secret for 10 months, until it
>was revealed in the Commission's final report in September, 1964. When
>the Warren Commission printed the Dallas Police Documents, there was no
>reference to the paraffin test at the bottom of the police evidence
>sheet.
>
> At a news conference, Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade, while
>labelling Oswald a "lone nut", was careful not to incriminate himself
>by publicly falsifying the results of the test. He was asked about the
>paraffin test:
>
>Q: What about the paraffin tests ?
>A: Yes, I've got paraffin tests that showed he had recently fired a
>gun-- it was on both hands.
>Q: On both hands ?
>A: On both hands.
>Q: Recently fired a rifle ?
>A: A gun.
>
> The exchange indicates that the press was surprised to find that the
>test revealed nitrates on both hands. Also, Wade was asked specifically
>if the test revealed that Oswald had used a rifle. His response
>indicates that he was selecting his words carefully, differentiating
>between a rifle and "a gun" (a pistol).
>
Why are you quoting Wade, and not J.C. Day, who actually did the test?
Is this a case of "I'll quote whoever is most convenient?"
> The Warren Commission called the nitrate test results, "inconclusive".
>The Commission based its finding on results provided to it by the FBI
>and testimony by the Bureau's firearms expert Cortlandt Cunningham, who
>called the test "worthless". In the FBI test, conducted by the Energy
>and Research and Development Administration (ERDA), 17 men fired 5
>rounds each from a .38 caliber revolver. All of the men were then given
>the nitrate test, 8 men had no nitrates on both hands, 3 had no
>nitrates on the firing hand, but nitrates on the non-firing hand, 2 had
>nitrates on the firing hand and no nitrates on the non-firing hand.
>
> The FBI did reconstruction tests where a shooter fired the Oswald
>rifle and and they reported that there was never a positive result
>taken from any paraffin cast taken of the right cheek.
>
> Or so the FBI reported. Could it have lied about the results ?
>
> Dallas FBI Chief Gordon Shanklin had no problem lying publicly about
>the Oswald test results. The New York Times on page 2 of its November
>25, 1963 issue quoted him as saying that the paraffin test given to
>Oswald shortly after his arrest, "showed that gunpowder from a weapon,
>probably a rifle, remained on Oswald's cheek and hands."
>
You are assuming he was lying?
He was probably just mistaken.
> According to Harold Weisberg, who sued (ERDA) and the FBI under the
>Freedom of Information Act (CA 75-226) for the results of their
>paraffin tests with OSWALD'S rifle, the FBI DID LIE. According to their
>own report, the FBI tests firings of Oswald's rifle left heavy deposits
>of nitrates on all the shooters' faces, quite the opposite of what
>Cunningham reported to the Warren Commission.
>
Source!!
> This posed a problem for the Commission, for if the FBI test shooters
>had "heavy" deposits of nitrates on their cheeks, and Oswald had none,
>then Oswald did not fire that rifle on November 22nd and thus did not
>kill Kennedy and wound Connally. The FBI tests were the proof that
>exonerated Oswald in the murder.
>
> To address this problem, the Warren Commission held an executive
>session on January 27, 1964. The transcript of that meeting was
>orignally classified TOP SECRET until Weisberg's FOIA lawsuit made it
>public. That session included the discussion by Rankin and the
>Commission members who were present about the results of the FBI tests.
>Cunningham was obviously lying about the FBI test results.
And you know this how?
>Instead of
>charging him with perjury, the Commission at first decided to simply
>ignore the results of the FBI 's test. Nearly eight months later, on
>September 15, 1964, with the Report ready to go to press, the matter
>had to be resolved. A second opinion to confirm Cunningham's was needed
>to put the matter to rest. The Commission decided to depose another FBI
>agent, this one Lab agent John Gallagher to get him to say that the
>tests were worthless, which he did.
>
Do you ever bother to read stuff other than JFK conspiracy books?
Like the standard forensics literature, for example?
*That* says the paraffin test is useless. So the FBI testified to
something that a consensus of forensics experts believes.
> So we are left to believe that one of the first things that the Dallas
>Police did when they got Oswald to the station was to give him a test
>that was completely worthless and didn't prove that he fired the rifle.
>
That's right.
But you forget: the test was often very valuable in getting the
subject to confess.
> And then, at 7 pm, the Dallas DA used the worthless positive reading
>on his hands as evidence to charge him with killing J.D. Tippit.
>
They had a lot more evidence that this.
Like the spent hulls at the scene matching Oswald's revolver.
>
> If the nitrate test had been worthless, there would have been NO
>REASON TO HIDE THAT FACT FROM THE PUBLIC. D.A. Wade would have revealed
>it during the press conference, and THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO REASON FOR
>THE FBI TO CONDUCT ITS OWN NITRATE TEST for the Warren Commission.
>
Earth to Gil: Wade was the DA, he was not a forensics person.
> However, if the test result had proven that Oswald had NOT fired a
>rifle, then does the reason to keep it secret, the DA's deceptive
>answer and the purpose for the FBI nitrate test become that much more
>evident.
>
> This writer asks the reader: Have you ever heard of a negative test
>for DUI being inconclusive ? What about a biopsy ? A drug test ? Ever
>heard of a negative test result OF ANY KIND that was not negative, but
>instead was inconclusive ? I haven't.
>
Forensics experts have.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid2.htm
.John
--
Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Gerry Simone (H)
look at it.
However, what if Oswald washed his face and hands when he got home?
Then changed, grabbed his revolver, and left to go to the Texas Theatre.
Along the way, he shoots Tippit and exposes his hands to nitrates which
showed up positively, but negative for his still clean face.
It would've been interesting if he were asked such detailed questions as to
what he did at home before his arrest, had he lived.
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:43c33913...@129.250.170.82...
Jim Shannon
I read where nitrate was a residual by product of handling cardboard boxes
like the ones found at the TSBD. My theory that Oswald could not have shot
Kennedy is also based upon the lack of nitrates on Oswald's cheek. I propose
some other LN did the deed and not Oswald. I'm also wondering if gun
enthusiasts know about the paraffin test. Interesting post.
Jim
Todd W. Vaughan
The DPD didn't conduct the paraffin test on LHO until around 9:00 PM on
11/22/63. LHO had plenty of chances to wash up.
Todd
Jim Shannon
"Gerry Simone (H)" <addedfora...@idirect.ca> wrote in message
news:_eidnbKfYfSc5V7e...@look.ca...
> So it doesn't prove that he actually fired a rifle recently either way you
> look at it.
>
> However, what if Oswald washed his face and hands when he got home?
>
> Then changed, grabbed his revolver, and left to go to the Texas Theatre.
>
> Along the way, he shoots Tippit and exposes his hands to nitrates which
> showed up positively, but negative for his still clean face.
>
> It would've been interesting if he were asked such detailed questions as
> to what he did at home before his arrest, had he lived.
For that we would need to re-examine Mrs. Roberts testimony as she was the
only one that knew what Oswald might have been doing when he came in that
afternoon. Could she have heard the sounds of running tap water within the
house? I haven't read her WC testimony in a long time. But if she heard
running tap water in her house when Oswald got home then there's a good
possibility he washed his hands and face because of a paraffin test he
might be faced with later. This would mean he would have knowledge of such
a test DPD would take when he would be arrested. Kind of like the
precautions a 6th floor shooter would take to wipe down the M-C rifle of
fingerprints. If Roberts and Oswald were the only ones in the house at the
time and she heard the sounds of running tap water, then it would present
more interesting problems and in all probability would point to Oswald's
knowledge of a paraffin test and cast more light as the 6th floor
shooter.Sorry for the choppyness of this but it' off to work.
Jim
tomnln
The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
"Gerry Simone (H)" <addedfora...@idirect.ca> wrote in message
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Jim Shannon
"tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
> There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>
> The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes. The
kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been no
sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left the
house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so long to do a
paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
Jim
tomnln
Parafin tests were performed at 3:50 p.m. on 11/22/63.
One hour after his arrest.
Todd, are you trying to make the DPD look Stupid to protect the WC?
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136916401.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
rob.s...@gmail.com
and take a leak there?
Gerry Simone (W)
show up in paraffin tests of a palm because nitrate discharges only deposit
on the dorsal or top side of a hand?
Should we re-read McAdam's post and see if any positive tests specified the
palm side of a hand?
"tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
rob.s...@gmail.com
taking a whiz
Gerry Simone (W)
Presumably, he would have had a bathroom break (especially from the stress)
before 9:00 pm. He could have washed his hands at that time.
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136916401.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
SDL
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>
>>There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>
>>The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>
>
> I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes. The
> kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been no
> sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left the
> house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so long to do a
> paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>
Jim,
The test was not an important one by any means. The test is suspect at
best and is only really used to try and intimidate the suspect into
confession. The same applies for the polygraph. They are both considered
junk science even in the law enforcement community. The reason they are
still used is that suspects still fall for them and sometimes do confess.
The dumber the criminal, the better the police like it.
Steve L.
SDL
> But there was a sink at the jail. Even Oz could not go 24hours without
> taking a whiz
>
>
Rob my friend,
You are asuming that Oz would have washed his hands afterwards. Many men
do not. And I am pleading the fifth ;-)
Steve L.
Todd W. Vaughan
Jim Shannon
"Jim Shannon" <ejims...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:43c4...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>> There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>
>> The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>
> I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes. The
> kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been no
> sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left the
> house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so long to do
> a paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>
> Jim
Jim
Todd W. Vaughan
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html
8:55 P.M. Fingerprints, Identification Paraffin Tests -- All in
Fritz's Office
"I will not sign the fingerprint card until I talk to my
attorney. [Oswald's name is on the card anyway.] . . . What are you
trying to prove with this paraffin test, that I fired a gun? . . . You
are wasting your time. I don't know anything about what you are
accusing me."
Jim Shannon
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c5...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> Jim Shannon wrote:
>> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>>
>>>There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>>
>>>The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>>
>>
>> I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes. The
>> kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been
>> no sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left
>> the house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so long
>> to do a paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>>
>
> Jim,
>
> The test was not an important one by any means. The test is suspect at
> best and is only really used to try and intimidate the suspect into
> confession. The same applies for the polygraph. They are both considered
> junk science even in the law enforcement community. The reason they are
> still used is that suspects still fall for them and sometimes do confess.
> The dumber the criminal, the better the police like it.
>
> Steve L.
Yes, I have heard the trem junk science before and I meant TSBD not DPD.
Tomlin pointed out that the paraffin test was done around 3:30pm shortly
after his arrest. The only time Oswald could have washed his hands or face
would be at his rooming house or perhaps at the theater. It's imaterial
because of the nitrate found on his hands a the time of the testing. I
wounder if Oswald was savy enough to know about the paraffin testing. how
many of us here even heard about a paraffin test before this NG. Hands up, I
admit I had no idea such a trest existed. Oswald wasn't dumb by any means.
But I still don't think he shot at anyone.
Jim
Jim Shannon
But the nitrates were found on both hands.
Jim
Jim Shannon
> He could have washed more than his hands.
I read further that approximately 2:50pm at DPD, J.B Hicks and Seargent
Barnes conducted paraffin casts on Oswald's cheek and hands. I can't recall
though if Oswald had said something like "what's this?" Hicks: "It's called
a paraffin test to see if you had indeed fired a gun." There was no
reference to a paraffin test at the bottom of the evidence sheet.
Jim
tomnln
Read the testimony
<rob.s...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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tomnln
web site.
"Gerry Simone (W)"
<addfornos...@addfornospambelmontconcreteaddfornospam.com> wrote in
message news:mLSdnTONS8F...@look.ca...
tomnln
They did the Parafin tests at 3:50 p.m. on 11/22/63.
One hour after his arrest.
"Jim Shannon" <ejims...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:43c4...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
tomnln
"Official Records"
Test was done at 3:50 p.m. on 11/22/63.
ONE (1) Hour after arrest in TT.
<rob.s...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136992678.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
The nitrate tests are not definitive. In this case they are not even
indicative. Nor probative. However, they are interesting. I do not believe
the nitrate tests prove that Oswald fired the rifle. I believe they
suggest that he fired or handled a recently fired weapon, most likely the
revolver. To me the pattern of the results on the cast tend to confirm the
idea of blowback from a revolver. But the Oak Ridge tests seem to indicate
that there was primer residue on the casts. Maybe in about 300 years we
will have a new test which confirms WHICH brand of ammunition deposited
the residue on the casts. Of course, by then the casts will no longer
exist, having been sold by the National Archives on Ebay as part of the
government liquidation sale.
Gerry Simone (W)
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c5...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Gerry Simone (W)
"Jim Shannon" <ejims...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
SDL
I would agree that Oz was not dumb. I was making a general observation
from my experiences as to why the test is still used and who usually falls
for it. But I would not say that Oz was very savvy when it came to police
procedures and interrogation techniques. After all, how many times was he
arrested by the police and put through the scrutiny of a homicide
investigation?
I think he shot Tippit and JFK.
Steve L.
Anthony Marsh
> So you're saying that whether using a rifle or revolver, nitrates might not
> show up in paraffin tests of a palm because nitrate discharges only deposit
> on the dorsal or top side of a hand?
>
Using a rifle, nitrates are not likely show up on the palm, but may show
up on the dorsal surface. But again, this can be tested by you at home.
Using a revolver nitrates can be expected on the palm, due to blowback
from the chamber. I think the pattern on the casts indicate that Oswald
fired his revolver recently.
Anthony Marsh
Jim Shannon wrote:
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>> There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>
>> The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>
> I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes. The
> kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been no
> sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left the
> house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so long to do a
> paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>
So long? You mean like 1 hour? You think it should be done in 5 minutes?
Is that your point? Well, the DPD had Oswald sitting in an office for
several minutes on suspicion of murdering Tippit before they realized that
he was the guy missing from the TSBD and much later charged him with
murdering the President.
Can you explain to me very slowly in simple English how the DPD can be
putting Oswald into line-ups and at the very same time be performing
nitrate tests on his hands? How does that work logistically? Are the two
things in the same place?
Gerry Simone (W)
The 'transcript' has Oswald denying on Nov 22 that he had been in Mexico
City .
Then on Nov 24th, he says he was there at the Mexican Consulate.
So he lied on November 22nd.
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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tomnln
"Jim Shannon" <ejims...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:43c5...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
Is Steve advocating the Release of Thousands of Prisoners convicted on
Parafin Tests???
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c5...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
There was "NO" opportunity for Oswald to wash his face.
ps. Who's Hands did Oswald use to wash his Face?????
"Jim Shannon" <ejims...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
tomnln
I go by Official records. see following starting on page 560 of WCR.
posted at Bottom.
ps. "Your" WCR.
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137001909.1...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Paraffin Test
During the course of the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald following the
assassination a paraffin test was performed by the Dallas police on both
of his hands and his right cheek. The paraffin cast of Oswald's hands
reacted positively to the test. The cast of the right cheek showed no
reaction. 87
To perform the paraffin test, layers of warm liquid paraffin,
inter-leaved with layers of gauze for reinforcement, are brushed or poured
on the suspect's skin. The warm sticky paraffin opens the skin's pores and
picks up any dirt and foreign material present at the surface. When the
paraffin cools and hardens it forms a cast, which is taken off and
processed with diphenylamine or diphenyl-
560
Page 561
benzidine, chemicals which turn blue in the presence of nitrates. Since
gunpowder residues contain nitrates, the theory behind the test. is that
if a cast reacts positively, i.e., if blue dots appear, it provides
evidence that the suspect recently fired a weapon. 88 In fact, however,
the test is completely unreliable in determining either whether a person
has recently fired a weapon or whether he has not. 89 On the one hand,
diphenylamine and diphenylbenzidine will react positively not only with
nitrates from gunpowder residues, but nitrates from other sources and most
oxidizing agents, including dichromates, per-manganates, hypochlorates,
periodates, and some oxides. Thus, contact with tobacco, Clorox, urine,
cosmetics, kitchen matches, pharmaceuticals, fertilizers, or soils, among
other things, may result in a positive reaction to the paraffin test.
Also, the mere handling of a weapon may leave nitrates on the skin. 90 A
positive reaction is, therefore, valueless in determining whether a
suspect has recently fired a weapon. Conversely, a person who has recently
fired a weapon may not show a positive reaction to the paraffin test,
particularly if the weapon was a rifle. A revolver is so constructed that
there is a space between the cylinder, which bears the chambers, and the
barrel. When a revolver is fired, nitrate-bearing gases escape through
this space and may leave residues on the. hand. 91 In a rifle, however,
there is no gap between the chamber and the barrel, and one would
therefore not expect nitrates to be deposited upon a person's hands or
cheeks as a result of his firing a rifle. As Cunningham testified:
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. * * * I personally wouldn't expect to find any residues
on a person's right cheek after firing a rifle due to the fact that by the
very principles and the manufacture and the action, the cartridge itself
is sealed into the chamber by the bolt being closed behind it, and upon
firing the case, the cartridge case expands into the chamber filling it up
and sealing it off from the gases, so none will come back in your face,
and so by its very nature, I would not expect to find residue on the
right. cheek of a shooter. 92
The unreliability of the paraffin test has been demonstrated by
experiments run by the FBI. In one experiment, conducted prior to the
assassination, paraffin tests were performed on 17 men who had just fired
5 shots with a .38-caliber revolver. Eight men tested negative in both
hands, three men tested positive on the idle hand and negative on the
firing hand, two men tested positive on the firing hand and negative on
the idle hand, and four men tested positive on both their firing and idle
hands. 93 In a second experiment, paraffin tests were per formed on 29
persons, 9 of whom had just fired a revolver or an automatic, and 20 of
whom had not fired a weapon. All 29 persons tested positive on either or
both hands. 94 In a third experiment, performed after the assassination,
an agent of the FBI, using the C2766 rifle, fired
561
Page 562
three rounds of Western 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition in
rapid succession. A paraffin test was then performed on both of his hands
and his right cheek. Both of his hands and his cheek tested negative. 95
tomnln
Kinda like..........the WCR
"Presumably of Entrance"
"Presumably of Exit"
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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tomnln
No matter HOW you change the subject.
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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tomnln
Arrest was at 1:50 p.m.
Test was at 2:50 p.m.
"Gerry Simone (W)"
<addfornos...@addfornospambelmontconcreteaddfornospam.com> wrote in
message news:0vydnTA5DYG...@look.ca...
> Would they have allowed him to wash his hands prior to that test at 9:00
> pm?
>
> Presumably, he would have had a bathroom break (especially from the
> stress)
> before 9:00 pm. He could have washed his hands at that time.
>
> "Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1136916401.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Gerry,
>>
>> The DPD didn't conduct the paraffin test on LHO until around 9:00 PM on
>> 11/22/63. LHO had plenty of chances to wash up.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>
>
>
rob.s...@gmail.com
Interesting, I wonder how hot wax feels on your neather regions! I
wonder if anyone thought of that!
LOL
Rob
rob.s...@gmail.com
After a third lineup at about 7:40 p.m., Oswald was returned to Fritz'
office.8 About an hour later, after further questioning, Oswald's
fingerprints and palmprints were taken and a paraffin test (see app. XI)
administered in Fritz' office, after which the questioning resumed.9 At
11:26 p.m. Fritz signed the complaint charging Oswald with the murder of
President Kennedy. 10 Shortly after midnight, detectives took Oswald to
the basement assembly room for an appearance of several minutes before
members of the press.11 At about 12 :20 a.m. Oswald was delivered to the
jailer who placed him in a maximum security cell on the fifth floor. 12
His cell was the center one in a block of three cells that were separated
from the remainder of the jail area. The cells on either side of Oswald
were empty and a guard was nearby whenever Oswald was present.13 Shortly
after 1:30 a.m. Oswald was brought to the identification bureau on the
fourth floor and arraigned before Justice of the Peace Johnston, this time
for the murder President Kennedy.14
This would put Ozzies Parafin test at about 8:40 p.m.
Jim Shannon
> Jim;
> They did the Parafin tests at 3:50 p.m. on 11/22/63.
>
> One hour after his arrest.
Thanks for keeping me honest Tomlin.
The only way Oswald could have had nitrates on both his hands was if he
held his pistol in both hands as some do as in a shooting practice range.
The other would be by handling the cardboard boxes containing the
textbooks at the TSBD where he worked in which case almost everybody
connected to the 6th floor, laying crew would have on their hands if the
moved boxes that morning. Including and perhaps Givens and Fraizer.
Jim
tomnln
Where did he wash his face free of nitrates?
When did he wash his face free of nitrates?
Nitrates were STILL on Palms of his hands
Who's hands did he use to wash his face?
exhibits #
2199-001
2199-002
2199-003
2199-004
"Jim Shannon" <ejims...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:43c57676$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
They can be found on the DPD website HERE
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/
Exhibit numbers are;
2199-001
2199-002
2199-003
2199-004
"Jim Shannon" <ejims...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:43c5740e$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
====================================================================
> I think he shot Tippit and JFK.
>
> Steve L.
I think the American Justice System requires PROOF.
Do you have any?
===================================================================
Jim Shannon
> What about from carbon paper?
Yes that too. As in money orders. But where would Oswald have come in
contact with carbon paper before his arrest?
Jim
Jim Shannon
Please refrain from referring Oswald as "Oz" as someone has suggested
before. It suggests other connotations. We agree that Oswald was certainly
not dumb, we disagree on weather or not he shot anyone. We are both however
in agreement that President Kennedy was shot by One assassin.Weather it is
Oswald or some other LN is up for contention.
Jim
Jim Shannon
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7fKdnX6zAa7YH1je...@comcast.com...
LOL! I like that. However nitrates were found on Oswald's hands. Both of
them. It would be interesting to see if nitrate residue would have been
found near and in front of Tippet's body.
Jim
Jim Shannon
>
> Jim Shannon wrote:
>> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>>> There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>>
>>> The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>>
>> I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes. The
>> kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been
>> no sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left
>> the house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so long
>> to do a paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>>
>
> So long? You mean like 1 hour? You think it should be done in 5 minutes?
> Is that your point? Well, the DPD had Oswald sitting in an office for
> several minutes on suspicion of murdering Tippit before they realized that
> he was the guy missing from the TSBD and much later charged him with
> murdering the President.
Some here put the paraffin testing at 2:50pm others at 8:40pm. I meant the
2:50pm test, which would put your timing correct. Also Charles Givens and
others were missing as well but I think Givens returned about 2pm. Probably
trying to explain what his pack of smokes were doing in the SN.
> Can you explain to me very slowly in simple English how the DPD can be
> putting Oswald into line-ups and at the very same time be performing
> nitrate tests on his hands? How does that work logistically? Are the two
> things in the same place?
Umm. I think I just explained that in the above.
Jim Shannon
> Gerry Simone (W) wrote:
>> So you're saying that whether using a rifle or revolver, nitrates might
>> not
>> show up in paraffin tests of a palm because nitrate discharges only
>> deposit
>> on the dorsal or top side of a hand?
>>
>
> Using a rifle, nitrates are not likely show up on the palm, but may show
> up on the dorsal surface. But again, this can be tested by you at home.
> Using a revolver nitrates can be expected on the palm, due to blowback
> from the chamber. I think the pattern on the casts indicate that Oswald
> fired his revolver recently.
As you know nitrates were found on Both Hands.
Jim
SDL
> Is Steve advocating the Release of Thousands of Prisoners convicted on
> Parafin Tests???
Tom,
Citation please. Give me one example of anyone being found guilty of a
crime based soley on a parafin test.
Steve L.
rob.s...@gmail.com
Oswald's Paraffin test was done at approximately 8:40 p.m.
>From Russ Burr's site:
Chronology
The policemen who seized Oswald at the Texas Theatre arrived with him
at the police department building at about 9 p.m. and brought him
immediately to the third floor offices of the homicide and robbery
bureau to await the arrival of Captain Fritz from the Texas School Book
Depository. After about 15 or 20 minutes Oswald was ushered into the
office of Captain Fritz for the first of several interrogation
sessions. At 4:05 p.m. he was taken to the basement assembly room for
his first lineup. While waiting outside the lineup room, Oswald was
searched, and five cartridges and other items were removed from his
pockets. After the lineup, at about 4:20, Oswald was returned to
Captain Fritz' office for further questioning. Two hours later, at 6:20
p.m., Oswald was taken downstairs for a second lineup and returned to
Captain Fritz' office within 15 minutes for additional interrogation.
Shortly after 7 p.m., Captain Fritz signed a complaint charging Oswald
with the murder of Patrolman Tippit. Oswald was formally arraigned,
i.e., advised of the charges, at 7:10 p.m., before Justice of the Peace
David L. Johnston, who came to Captain office for the occasion.
After a third lineup at about 7:40 p.m., Oswald was returned to Fritz'
office. About an hour later, after further questioning, Oswald's
fingerprints and palmprints were taken and a paraffin test (see app.
XI) administered in Fritz' office, after which the questioning resumed.
At 11:26 p.m. Fritz signed the complaint charging Oswald with the
murder of President Kennedy. Shortly after midnight, detectives took
Oswald to the basement assembly room for an appearance of several
minutes before members of the press. At about 12:20 a.m. Oswald was
delivered to the jailer who placed him in a maximum security cell on
the fifth floor. His cell was the center one in a block of three cells
that were separated from the remainder of the jail area. The cells on
either side of Oswald were empty and a guard was nearby whenever Oswald
was present. Shortly after 1:30 a.m. Oswald was brought to the
identification bureau on the fourth floor and arraigned before Justice
of the Peace Johnston, this time for the murder President Kennedy.
>From the National Archives site:
Chronology
The policemen who seized Oswald at the Texas Theatre arrived with him
at the police department building at about 2 p.m. and brought him
immediately to the third floor offices of the homicide and robbery
bureau to await the arrival of Captain Fritz from the Texas School Book
Depository. After about 15 or 20 minutes Oswald was ushered into the
office of Captain Fritz for the first of several interrogation
sessions.2 At 4:05 p.m. he was taken to the basement assembly room for
his first lineup.3 While waiting outside the lineup room, Oswald was
searched, and five cartridges and other items were removed from his
pockets.4 After the lineup, at about 4 :20, Oswald was returned to
Captain Fritz' office for further questioning.5 Two hours later, at
6:20 p.m., Oswald was taken downstairs for a second lineup and returned
to Captain Fritz' office within 15 minutes for additional
interrogation.6 Shortly after 7 p.m., Captain Fritz signed a complaint
charging Oswald with the murder of Patrolman Tippit. Oswald was
formally arraigned, i.e., advised of the charges, at 7:10 p.m., before
Justice of the Peace David L. Johnston, who came to Captain Fritz'
office for the occasion.7
>From Ken Rahn's site
The policemen who seized Oswald at the Texas Theatre arrived with him
at the police department building at about 9 p.m. and brought him
immediately to the third floor offices of the homicide and robbery
bureau to await the arrival of Captain Fritz from the Texas School Book
Depository. After about 15 or 20 minutes Oswald was ushered into the
office of Captain Fritz for the first of several interrogation
sessions. At 4:05 p.m. he was taken to the basement assembly room for
his first lineup. While waiting outside the lineup room, Oswald was
searched, and five cartridges and other items were removed from his
pockets. After the lineup, at about 4:20, Oswald was returned to
Captain Fritz' office for further questioning. Two hours later, at 6:20
p.m., Oswald was taken downstairs for a second lineup and returned to
Captain Fritz' office within 15 minutes for additional interrogation.
Shortly after 7 p.m., Captain Fritz signed a complaint charging Oswald
with the murder of Patrolman Tippit. Oswald was formally arraigned,
i.e., advised of the charges, at 7:10 p.m., before Justice of the Peace
David L. Johnston, who came to Captain office for the occasion.
After a third lineup at about 7:40 p.m., Oswald was returned to Fritz'
office. About an hour later, after further questioning, Oswald's
fingerprints and palmprints were taken and a paraffin test (see app.
XI) administered in Fritz' office, after which the questioning resumed.
At 11:26 p.m. Fritz signed the complaint charging Oswald with the
murder of President Kennedy. Shortly after midnight, detectives took
Oswald to the basement assembly room for an appearance of several
minutes before members of the press. At about 12:20 a.m. Oswald was
delivered to the jailer who placed him in a maximum security cell on
the fifth floor. His cell was the center one in a block of three cells
that were separated from the remainder of the jail area. The cells on
either side of Oswald were empty and a guard was nearby whenever Oswald
was present. Shortly after 1:30 a.m. Oswald was brought to the
identification bureau on the fourth floor and arraigned before Justice
of the Peace Johnston, this time for the murder President Kennedy
Where can you site that the Paraffin test was done at 3:50 p.m.?
rob.s...@gmail.com
puts the paraffin test about 9:00 p.m. Were there two tests Tom?
Back to Fritz's testimony:
Mr. BALL. Then your records show another showup at 7:50?
Mr. FRITZ. At what time?
Mr. BALL. 7:50, that is the third showup. Mrs. Davis----
Mr. FRITZ. That would be showup No. 3.
Mr. BALL. That is showup No. 3.
Mr. FRITZ. Showup No. 3 was held for Barbara Jean Davis.
Mr. BALL. And Virginia Davis.
Mr. FRITZ. Virginia Davis.
and
Mr. BALL. Now, during the evening, did you question him some more?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am sure that I did. Let me see.
Mr. BALL. It shows he was fingerprinted at 8:55.
Mr. FRITZ. I probably talked to him a little bit more after that. was
fingerprinted at what time?
Mr. BALL. 8:55. Or 9 o'clock, around 9 o'clock. Fingerprinted, at that
time there was a paraffin test of the hands and face.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe he was fingerprinted. I think we made the
paraffin test in my office.
Mr. BALL. There was a paraffin test.
Mr. FRITZ. I allowed them to use my office right there to make a
paraffin test.
Mr. BALL. And your records show he was fingerprinted there, too.
Mr. FRITZ. It is possible, I didn't stay there with him. He could have.
I don't think they fingerprinted him at that time. I wouldn't see any
need for it.
rob.s...@gmail.com
references in your quote.of page 560
Anthony Marsh
> Is Steve advocating the Release of Thousands of Prisoners convicted on
> Parafin Tests???
>
Thousands? Citation please.
Anthony Marsh
> Your link is interesting.
>
> The 'transcript' has Oswald denying on Nov 22 that he had been in Mexico
> City .
>
Can you quote what sentence you think means that? Maybe he was only
disavowing a specific meeting or visit. Remember that when Hosty brought
up Mexico City, Oswald said, "How did you know about that?" That doesn't
sound like a denial.
Anthony Marsh
> What about from carbon paper?
Barium and antimony. I don't think so, but you could check.
>
> "Jim Shannon" <ejims...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:43c5...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>> "SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:43c5...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>> Jim Shannon wrote:
>>>> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>>>>
>>>>> There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>>>>
>>>>> The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>>>>
>>>> I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes.
> The
>>>> kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been
>>>> no sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left
>>>> the house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so
> long
>>>> to do a paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>>>>
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> The test was not an important one by any means. The test is suspect at
>>> best and is only really used to try and intimidate the suspect into
>>> confession. The same applies for the polygraph. They are both considered
>>> junk science even in the law enforcement community. The reason they are
>>> still used is that suspects still fall for them and sometimes do
> confess.
>>> The dumber the criminal, the better the police like it.
>>>
>>> Steve L.
>> Yes, I have heard the trem junk science before and I meant TSBD not DPD.
>> Tomlin pointed out that the paraffin test was done around 3:30pm shortly
>> after his arrest. The only time Oswald could have washed his hands or face
>> would be at his rooming house or perhaps at the theater. It's imaterial
>> because of the nitrate found on his hands a the time of the testing. I
>> wounder if Oswald was savy enough to know about the paraffin testing. how
>> many of us here even heard about a paraffin test before this NG. Hands up,
> I
>> admit I had no idea such a trest existed. Oswald wasn't dumb by any means.
>> But I still don't think he shot at anyone.
>>
>> Jim
rob.s...@gmail.com
the paraffin test later that evening:
Mr. BALL. There were three exploded cartridge hulls on the floor,
weren't there?
Mr. HICKS. Yes; I am not sure; I believe they had already been picked
up and removed when I arrived.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked them up?
Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't know off hand.
Mr. BALL. Did you later see them in your laboratory?
Mr. HICKS. I believe I saw one of the particular ones there that night.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you examine it?
Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. I think Lieutenant Day had all of them.
Mr. BALL. Do you do ballistics work in your laboratory?
Mr. HICKS. No, sir; we have no facilities for firing or testfiring any
of the guns there.
Mr. BALL. Did you do any identification work on either the
assassination of President Kennedy or the investigation of Tippit's
murder?
Mr. HICKS. Do you mean as far as fingerprints?
Mr. BALL. Yes; and things of that sort.
Mr. HICKS. Let me see now, I took a set of Oswald's prints from him
that night some time. I do not recall.
Mr. BALL. 9 o'clock or so?
Mr. HICKS. It was some time in that area.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you took the prints?
Mr. HICKS. I was in Captain Fritz' office. In other words, I made those
on an inkless pad. That's a pad we use for fingerprinting people
without the black ink that they make for the records.
Mr. BALL. What else did you do there?
Mr. HICKS. I was one of the two who made the paraffin east on Oswald.
Mr. BALL. You and who else?
Mr. HICKS. Sergeant Barnes.
Mr. BALL. Have you ever done that before, the paraffin east?
Mr. HICKS. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald protest any or did he permit you to do that?
Mr. HICKS. No, sir; he was willing and had no comment on it as far as
the making of them.
Mr. BALL. Did you test the paraffin east; did you make any test on it?
Mr. HICKS. No, sir; that's done by the lab at Parkland Hospital which
Lieutenant Alexander, I believe is in charge there.
Mr. BALL. But you did not do it yourself?
Mr. HICKS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What has been your experience with paraffin casts? How
accurate are they in determining whether or not a person has fired a
firearm previously?
Mr. HICKS. My own personal opinion is that it is not an exact
conclusive evidence that, if you are familiar with that test, anything
containing nitrate might show up on a test of that sort.
Mr. BALL. Is it usual to find any trace of nitrate on the face if a
rifle has been fired?
Mr. HICKS. That is the first time that I had the opportunity to make a
paraffin test on a person's face.
Mr. BALL. You never made one before?
Mr. HICKS. Never before.
Mr. BALL. The other tests were always on the hands?
Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there some reason for that?
Mr. HICKS. I had never had the occasion arise that I know of where
anyone had that suggested, that a paraffin test be made of a cheek. On
other occasions they were only interested in the hand.
Mr. BALL. Did you do anything else with respect to the investigation?
Mr. HICKS. I don't recall anything outstanding that I did in the
investigation further there. Now, I know we were all pretty well busy
there until about 2 or 2:30 in the morning but most of it was, I would
imagine regular officework and
rob.s...@gmail.com
Mr. Hicks.
Let me see now, I took a set of Oswald's prints from him that night
some time. I do not recall.
Mr. Ball.
9 o'clock or so?
Mr. Hicks.
It was some time in that area.
Mr. Ball.
Where were you when you took the prints?
Mr. Hicks.
I was in Captain Fritz' office. In other words, I made those on an
inkless pad. That's a pad we use for fingerprinting people without the
black ink that they make for the records.
Mr. Ball.
What else did you do there?
Mr. Hicks.
I was one of the two who made the paraffin east on Oswald.
Mr. Ball.
You and who else?
Mr. Hicks.
Sergeant Barnes.
Mr. Ball.
Have you ever done that before, the paraffin east?
Mr. HICKS. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Did Oswald protest any or did he permit you to do that?
Mr. Hicks.
No, sir; he was willing and had no comment on it as far as the making
of them.
Mr. Ball.
Did you test the paraffin east; did you make any test on it?
Mr. Hicks.
No, sir; that's done by the lab at Parkland Hospital which Lieutenant
Alexander, I believe is in charge there.
Mr. Ball.
But you did not do it yourself?
Mr. Hicks.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
What has been your experience with paraffin casts? How accurate are
they in determining whether or not a person has fired a firearm
previously?
Mr. Hicks.
My own personal opinion is that it is not an exact conclusive evidence
that, if you are familiar with that test, anything containing nitrate
might show up on a test of that sort.
Mr. Ball.
Is it usual to find any trace of nitrate on the face if a rifle has
been fired?
Mr. Hicks.
That is the first time that I had the opportunity to make a paraffin
test on a person's face.
Mr. Ball.
You never made one before?
Mr. Hicks.
Never before.
Mr. Ball.
The other tests were always on the hands?
Mr. Hicks.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Was there some reason for that?
Mr. Hicks.
I had never had the occasion arise that I know of where anyone had that
suggested, that a paraffin test be made of a cheek. On other occasions
they were only interested in the hand.
Mr. Ball.
Did you do anything else with respect to the investigation?
Mr. Hicks.
Todd W. Vaughan
You're a little late.
I already addressed this.
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
Haven't you been spanked enough?
The paraffin test was not done at 2:50 p.m. And you'll NEVER find a
souce that say it was.
It was done aroun 9:00 p.m.
Todd
SDL
This is not the American Justice System here, nor is it a trial. It is a
newsgroup, so I have no obligation to prove it to you or anyone else.
You are allowed to believe what you want, as am I.
Steve L.
SDL
What negative connotation does "Oz" have? I mean nothing by it. I grew
up with a guy named Oswald and we called him "Oz" or "Ozzie". He never
complained.
Steve L.
SDL
Don't confuse Tom with the Official Records. He relies only
on........ooops, well, uh, the Official Records. Poor Tom.
Steve L.
Jim Shannon
> Nitrates were on the Palm side ONLY.
I used to work in a wearhouse simmilar to the TSBD building for 15 years
handling cardboard boxes of all kinds.You lift boxes with your knees and
hold the boxes in the Palms of your hands.
Jim
Jim Shannon
> Do WC Supporters have to check they're brains at the door????
I'm not a WC supporter.
LoneN...@gmail.com
I think you're on to something. Maybe Tom liked to be spanked?
rob.s...@gmail.com
off with egg on his face. Not me never ;-)
Rob
Anthony Marsh
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:35lxf.276433$0l5.274091@dukeread06...
>> Nitrates were on the Palm side ONLY.
>
> I used to work in a wearhouse simmilar to the TSBD building for 15 years
> handling cardboard boxes of all kinds.You lift boxes with your knees and
> hold the boxes in the Palms of your hands.
>
Always lift with your legs and never with your back.
Anthony Marsh
Didn't someone call Lee "Ozzie Rabbit"?
Anthony Marsh
> "Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:7fKdnXuzAa6BGFje...@comcast.com...
>> Gerry Simone (W) wrote:
>>> So you're saying that whether using a rifle or revolver, nitrates might
>>> not
>>> show up in paraffin tests of a palm because nitrate discharges only
>>> deposit
>>> on the dorsal or top side of a hand?
>>>
>> Using a rifle, nitrates are not likely show up on the palm, but may show
>> up on the dorsal surface. But again, this can be tested by you at home.
>> Using a revolver nitrates can be expected on the palm, due to blowback
>> from the chamber. I think the pattern on the casts indicate that Oswald
>> fired his revolver recently.
>
> As you know nitrates were found on Both Hands.
>
Yes, it is the pattern on both which intrigues me. Looks like blowback.
Anthony Marsh
It would also be interesting if the cops had done the proper tests and
found nitrate residue on the window sill of the sniper's nest AND the
fence on the grassy knoll.
Anthony Marsh
> "Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:rqidnWHrD5m...@comcast.com...
>> Jim Shannon wrote:
>>> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>> news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>>>> There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>>>
>>>> The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>>> I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes. The
>>> kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been
>>> no sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left
>>> the house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so long
>>> to do a paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>>>
>> So long? You mean like 1 hour? You think it should be done in 5 minutes?
>> Is that your point? Well, the DPD had Oswald sitting in an office for
>> several minutes on suspicion of murdering Tippit before they realized that
>> he was the guy missing from the TSBD and much later charged him with
>> murdering the President.
>
> Some here put the paraffin testing at 2:50pm others at 8:40pm. I meant the
> 2:50pm test, which would put your timing correct. Also Charles Givens and
> others were missing as well but I think Givens returned about 2pm. Probably
> trying to explain what his pack of smokes were doing in the SN.
>
SN as in smoker's nook? ;]>
LoneN...@gmail.com
I think your on to something here. Maybe Tom likes to be spanked!
Gerry Simone (W)
THIS IS SNIPPED FROM THOSE 'TRANSCRIPTS' FROM THAT WEBSITE LINK, FOR
NOVEMBER 22ND, 1963:
12:30 P.M., CST, NOV. 22, 1963
Pres. John F. Kennedy Assassinated
..
..
..
2:25 - 4:04 P.M. Interrogation of Oswald, Office of Capt Will Fritz
"My name is Lee Harvey Oswald. . . . I work at the Texas School
Book Depository Building. . . . I lived in Minsk and in Moscow. . . . I
worked in a factory. . . . I liked everything over there except the
weather. .. . . I have a wife and some children. . . . My residence is
1026 North Beckley, Dallas, Tex." Oswald recognized FBI agent James Hosty
and said, "You have been at my home two or three times talking to my wife.
I don't appreciate your coming out there when I was not there. . . . I was
never in Mexico City. I have been in Tijuana. . . .
AND THIS SNIPPED FROM THE INTERVIEW OF NOVEMBER 24TH, 1963:
9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963 Interrogation in Capt.
Will Fritz's Office
"After the assassination, a policeman or some man came rushing
into the School Book Depository Building and said, `Where is your
telephone?' He showed me some kind of credential and identified himself,
so he might not have been a police officer. . . . `Right there,' I
answered, pointing to the phone. . . . `Yes, I can eat lunch with you,' I
told my co-worker, `but I can't go right now. You go and take the
elevator, but send the elevator back up.' [The elevator in the building
was broken.] . . . After all this commotion started, I just went
downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and
my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one
of the employees in the building. .. . . If you ask me about the shooting
of Tippit, I don't know what you are talking about. . . . The only thing I
am here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in the theater on
Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting
myself. . . . I learned about the job vacancy at the Texas School Book
Depository from people in Mrs. Paine's neighborhood. . . . I visited my
wife Thursday night, Nov. 21, whereas I normally visited her over the
weekend, because Mrs. Paine was giving a party for the children on the
weekend. They were having a houseful of neighborhood children. I didn't
want to be around at such a time. . . . Therefore, my weekly visit was on
Thursday night instead of on the weekend. . . . It didn't cost much to go
to Mexico. It cost me some $26, a small, ridiculous amount to eat, and
another ridiculous small amount to stay all night. . . . I went to the
Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by way of
Cuba. . . . I went to the Mexican Consulate in Mexico City.
Tony, if these 'transcripts' are accurate, Oswald 1st said on Nov 22 that
'I was never in Mexico City'.
Then on November 24th, he says, inter alia, 'I went to the Mexican
Consulate in Mexico City'.
Again, if the gist of these 'transcripts' are accurate, even though not
verbatim, then it shows that Oswald lied.
I repeat the html link right here =>
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html
BTW, on Nov 24th, Oswald confirms his encounter with Jim Lehrer, the
reporter who asked him where a phone was.
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:YYednWDeB7j...@comcast.com...
tomnln
<rob.s...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137029422.0...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> SDL wrote:
>> rob.s...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > But there was a sink at the jail. Even Oz could not go 24hours without
>> > taking a whiz
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Rob my friend,
>>
>> You are asuming that Oz would have washed his hands afterwards. Many men
>> do not. And I am pleading the fifth ;-)
>>
>> Steve L.
================================================================
> Interesting, I wonder how hot wax feels on your neather regions! I
> wonder if anyone thought of that!
>
> LOL
>
> Rob
Ask Bud;
He's ionto that "Kinky" stuff.
=================================================================
tomnln
Right now, I have to Relocate it.
If that don't happen I WILL apologize.
When it DOES happen will you Apologize?
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137087490.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
I have already stated I got it from an official report.
If you really want to insult me before I relocate that report, you may.
Just remember, when I Do relocate that report do you think I would be
Justified in "Retaliating" ?
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c6a1de$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c69cb4$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
=======================================================================
>> I think the American Justice System requires PROOF.
>> Do you have any?
> This is not the American Justice System here, nor is it a trial. It is a
> newsgroup, so I have no obligation to prove it to you or anyone else. You
> are allowed to believe what you want, as am I.
>
> Steve L.
>
BE CAREFUL STEVE;
When you make accusations without the benefit of Proof, You open the door
for others to make accusations against you without Proof.
======================================================================
tomnln
I got it from Official sources within the past few days.
I am having a challenge finding it again.
But, I WILL. You can be sure I will post the source right here when I
relocate it.
<rob.s...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137075020....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Tom where are you getting your information? I have 3 sources that state
> Oswald's Paraffin test was done at approximately 8:40 p.m.
>
>>From Russ Burr's site:
>
> Chronology
> The policemen who seized Oswald at the Texas Theatre arrived with him
> at the police department building at about 9 p.m. and brought him
> immediately to the third floor offices of the homicide and robbery
> bureau to await the arrival of Captain Fritz from the Texas School Book
> Depository. After about 15 or 20 minutes Oswald was ushered into the
> office of Captain Fritz for the first of several interrogation
> sessions. At 4:05 p.m. he was taken to the basement assembly room for
> his first lineup. While waiting outside the lineup room, Oswald was
> searched, and five cartridges and other items were removed from his
> pockets. After the lineup, at about 4:20, Oswald was returned to
> Captain Fritz' office for further questioning. Two hours later, at 6:20
> p.m., Oswald was taken downstairs for a second lineup and returned to
> Captain Fritz' office within 15 minutes for additional interrogation.
> Shortly after 7 p.m., Captain Fritz signed a complaint charging Oswald
> with the murder of Patrolman Tippit. Oswald was formally arraigned,
> i.e., advised of the charges, at 7:10 p.m., before Justice of the Peace
> David L. Johnston, who came to Captain office for the occasion.
> After a third lineup at about 7:40 p.m., Oswald was returned to Fritz'
> office. About an hour later, after further questioning, Oswald's
> fingerprints and palmprints were taken and a paraffin test (see app.
> XI) administered in Fritz' office, after which the questioning resumed.
> At 11:26 p.m. Fritz signed the complaint charging Oswald with the
> murder of President Kennedy. Shortly after midnight, detectives took
> Oswald to the basement assembly room for an appearance of several
> minutes before members of the press. At about 12:20 a.m. Oswald was
> delivered to the jailer who placed him in a maximum security cell on
> the fifth floor. His cell was the center one in a block of three cells
> that were separated from the remainder of the jail area. The cells on
> either side of Oswald were empty and a guard was nearby whenever Oswald
> was present. Shortly after 1:30 a.m. Oswald was brought to the
> identification bureau on the fourth floor and arraigned before Justice
> of the Peace Johnston, this time for the murder President Kennedy.
>
>>From the National Archives site:
>
> Chronology
>
> The policemen who seized Oswald at the Texas Theatre arrived with him
> at the police department building at about 2 p.m. and brought him
> immediately to the third floor offices of the homicide and robbery
> bureau to await the arrival of Captain Fritz from the Texas School Book
> Depository. After about 15 or 20 minutes Oswald was ushered into the
> office of Captain Fritz for the first of several interrogation
> sessions.2 At 4:05 p.m. he was taken to the basement assembly room for
> his first lineup.3 While waiting outside the lineup room, Oswald was
> searched, and five cartridges and other items were removed from his
> pockets.4 After the lineup, at about 4 :20, Oswald was returned to
> Captain Fritz' office for further questioning.5 Two hours later, at
> 6:20 p.m., Oswald was taken downstairs for a second lineup and returned
> to Captain Fritz' office within 15 minutes for additional
> interrogation.6 Shortly after 7 p.m., Captain Fritz signed a complaint
> charging Oswald with the murder of Patrolman Tippit. Oswald was
> formally arraigned, i.e., advised of the charges, at 7:10 p.m., before
> Justice of the Peace David L. Johnston, who came to Captain Fritz'
> office for the occasion.7
>
> After a third lineup at about 7:40 p.m., Oswald was returned to Fritz'
> office.8 About an hour later, after further questioning, Oswald's
> fingerprints and palmprints were taken and a paraffin test (see app.
> XI) administered in Fritz' office, after which the questioning
> resumed.9 At 11:26 p.m. Fritz signed the complaint charging Oswald with
> the murder of President Kennedy. 10 Shortly after midnight, detectives
> took Oswald to the basement assembly room for an appearance of several
> minutes before members of the press.11 At about 12 :20 a.m. Oswald was
> delivered to the jailer who placed him in a maximum security cell on
> the fifth floor. 12 His cell was the center one in a block of three
> cells that were separated from the remainder of the jail area. The
> cells on either side of Oswald were empty and a guard was nearby
> whenever Oswald was present.13 Shortly after 1:30 a.m. Oswald was
> brought to the identification bureau on the fourth floor and arraigned
> before Justice of the Peace Johnston, this time for the murder
> President Kennedy.14
>
>>From Ken Rahn's site
>
> The policemen who seized Oswald at the Texas Theatre arrived with him
> at the police department building at about 9 p.m. and brought him
> immediately to the third floor offices of the homicide and robbery
> bureau to await the arrival of Captain Fritz from the Texas School Book
> Depository. After about 15 or 20 minutes Oswald was ushered into the
> office of Captain Fritz for the first of several interrogation
> sessions. At 4:05 p.m. he was taken to the basement assembly room for
> his first lineup. While waiting outside the lineup room, Oswald was
> searched, and five cartridges and other items were removed from his
> pockets. After the lineup, at about 4:20, Oswald was returned to
> Captain Fritz' office for further questioning. Two hours later, at 6:20
> p.m., Oswald was taken downstairs for a second lineup and returned to
> Captain Fritz' office within 15 minutes for additional interrogation.
> Shortly after 7 p.m., Captain Fritz signed a complaint charging Oswald
> with the murder of Patrolman Tippit. Oswald was formally arraigned,
> i.e., advised of the charges, at 7:10 p.m., before Justice of the Peace
> David L. Johnston, who came to Captain office for the occasion.
> After a third lineup at about 7:40 p.m., Oswald was returned to Fritz'
> office. About an hour later, after further questioning, Oswald's
> fingerprints and palmprints were taken and a paraffin test (see app.
> XI) administered in Fritz' office, after which the questioning resumed.
> At 11:26 p.m. Fritz signed the complaint charging Oswald with the
> murder of President Kennedy. Shortly after midnight, detectives took
> Oswald to the basement assembly room for an appearance of several
> minutes before members of the press. At about 12:20 a.m. Oswald was
> delivered to the jailer who placed him in a maximum security cell on
> the fifth floor. His cell was the center one in a block of three cells
> that were separated from the remainder of the jail area. The cells on
> either side of Oswald were empty and a guard was nearby whenever Oswald
> was present. Shortly after 1:30 a.m. Oswald was brought to the
> identification bureau on the fourth floor and arraigned before Justice
> of the Peace Johnston, this time for the murder President Kennedy
>
> Where can you site that the Paraffin test was done at 3:50 p.m.?
>
>
tomnln
Died in Prison
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c6...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> tomnln wrote:
>> Is Steve advocating the Release of Thousands of Prisoners convicted on
>> Parafin Tests???
>
> Tom,
>
> Citation please. Give me one example of anyone being found guilty of a
> crime based soley on a parafin test.
>
> Steve L.
>
>>
>>
>> "SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:43c5...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>
>>>Jim Shannon wrote:
>>>
>>>>"tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>>>>
>>>>>The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes. The
>>>>kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have been
>>>>no sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he left
>>>>the house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD so long
>>>>to do a paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Jim,
>>>
>>>The test was not an important one by any means. The test is suspect at
>>>best and is only really used to try and intimidate the suspect into
>>>confession. The same applies for the polygraph. They are both considered
>>>junk science even in the law enforcement community. The reason they are
>>>still used is that suspects still fall for them and sometimes do confess.
>>>The dumber the criminal, the better the police like it.
>>>
>>>Steve L.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>turns the paraffin blue, indicating the presence of nitrates. No
>>>>>>>>change
rob.s...@gmail.com
LOL
Rob
Todd W. Vaughan
Of course, by then the casts will no longer exist, having been sold by the
National Archives on Ebay as part of the government liquidation sale.
LOL
Todd
Jim Shannon
Now that certainly would be very interesting.
Jim
Jim Shannon
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:drudncSAB_E...@comcast.com...
> Jim Shannon wrote:
>> "Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:rqidnWHrD5m...@comcast.com...
>>> Jim Shannon wrote:
>>>> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:iVUwf.272273$0l5.16213@dukeread06...
>>>>> There was NO sink in Oswald's room.
>>>>>
>>>>> The nitrates on his hands were on the Palm side.
>>>> I read where nitrate can be picked up from handling cardboard boxes.
>>>> The kind that Oswald would need to handle at the DPD. There might have
>>>> been no sink in his room but he could have used the bathroom before he
>>>> left the house, he had drank a coke earlier. I wonder why it took DPD
>>>> so long to do a paraffin test with such an important suspect as Oswald.
>>>>
>>> So long? You mean like 1 hour? You think it should be done in 5 minutes?
>>> Is that your point? Well, the DPD had Oswald sitting in an office for
>>> several minutes on suspicion of murdering Tippit before they realized
>>> that he was the guy missing from the TSBD and much later charged him
>>> with murdering the President.
>>
>> Some here put the paraffin testing at 2:50pm others at 8:40pm. I meant
>> the 2:50pm test, which would put your timing correct. Also Charles Givens
>> and others were missing as well but I think Givens returned about 2pm.
>> Probably trying to explain what his pack of smokes were doing in the SN.
>>
>
> SN as in smoker's nook? ;]>
Exactly. Were there any cigarette butts found on the floor by the SN Window
Tony?
Jim
rob.s...@gmail.com
tests. All accounts point to only 1 at about 8:40 p.m. on 11/22/63. If
you have an earlier account I would be curious to know what the results
were and why the test might have been performed twice..
No retaliation nessessary, we all make mistakes, it's how we deal with
them afterwords.
Rob
SDL
> Louie Fialla, Hartford CT mid 60's
>
> Died in Prison
>
Cite the case. You know how to do that right?
SDL
I am not afraid of an old man on the other side of a computer. You have
already accused me of being a felon. Do you think that really bothers
me? Get a life.
Steve L.
Anthony Marsh
I do not think any were retrieved. I think you can see them in crime
scene photographs. Let me rephrase that. YOU can not see them. But they
can be seen in crime scene photographs.
tomnln
Are you denying that people have been convicted on the basis of "paraffin
tests" along with other evidence/testimony?
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c7...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
All I know is that Louie lived accross the Street from me.
I gave you "Specifics" YOU look it up.
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c7...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
I "DID" read of a 2:50 paraffin test and, I "WILL" find it.
I see no need for 2 paraffin tests.
But, when I find the 2:50 one, it indicates........
1. Somebody lied.
2. Unneccessary second test.
3. Reasonable doubt.
<rob.s...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137157317.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
> IN REPLY TO YOUR QUESTION TONY,
>
> THIS IS SNIPPED FROM THOSE 'TRANSCRIPTS' FROM THAT WEBSITE LINK, FOR
> NOVEMBER 22ND, 1963:
>
> 12:30 P.M., CST, NOV. 22, 1963
> Pres. John F. Kennedy Assassinated
> ..
> ..
> ..
> 2:25 - 4:04 P.M. Interrogation of Oswald, Office of Capt Will Fritz
>
> "My name is Lee Harvey Oswald. . . . I work at the Texas School
> Book Depository Building. . . . I lived in Minsk and in Moscow. . . . I
> worked in a factory. . . . I liked everything over there except the
> weather. .. . . I have a wife and some children. . . . My residence is
> 1026 North Beckley, Dallas, Tex." Oswald recognized FBI agent James Hosty
> and said, "You have been at my home two or three times talking to my wife.
> I don't appreciate your coming out there when I was not there. . . . I was
> never in Mexico City. I have been in Tijuana. . . .
>
> AND THIS SNIPPED FROM THE INTERVIEW OF NOVEMBER 24TH, 1963:
>
That's rather late. I think Hosty had been kicked out by then.
I believe that I was talking about what Hosty said.
> Then on November 24th, he says, inter alia, 'I went to the Mexican
> Consulate in Mexico City'.
>
> Again, if the gist of these 'transcripts' are accurate, even though not
> verbatim, then it shows that Oswald lied.
>
IF. Are you vouching for the accuracy of the transcripts? What about
notes found many years later?
> I repeat the html link right here =>
> http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html
>
> BTW, on Nov 24th, Oswald confirms his encounter with Jim Lehrer, the
> reporter who asked him where a phone was.
>
Not sure it was Jim Lehrer. Could have been Robin MacNeil. OR:
MISSED STORIES?: Posner states (187) that the young man who directed NBC
newsman Robert MacNeil to a telephone was Oswald, but MacNeil (188) is
skeptical of this, and the man mentioned by Oswald is most likely local
newsman Pierce Allman, who was also directed to a phone inside the
Depository about the same time, and identified Oswald as the man who
directed him (189).
tomnln
museum.
Allman states on that tape that it was indeed him that Oswald directed to
the phone.
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XvGdnX7ri46FpVXe...@comcast.com...
SDL
> Steve;
>
> Are you denying that people have been convicted on the basis of "paraffin
> tests" along with other evidence/testimony?
>
No. Can you read? Look down half a page and you will see the word
"soley". Read that sentence again, Tom. Read it again.
Anthony Marsh
> Steve;
>
> Are you denying that people have been convicted on the basis of "paraffin
> tests" along with other evidence/testimony?
>
Thousands in prisons? Cite.
John McAdams
<addedfora...@idirect.ca> wrote:
>So it doesn't prove that he actually fired a rifle recently either way you
>look at it.
>
>However, what if Oswald washed his face and hands when he got home?
>
>Then changed, grabbed his revolver, and left to go to the Texas Theatre.
>
>Along the way, he shoots Tippit and exposes his hands to nitrates which
>showed up positively, but negative for his still clean face.
>
>It would've been interesting if he were asked such detailed questions as to
>what he did at home before his arrest, had he lived.
>
But any such questions would have been moot for *this* purpose.
He wouldn't have had to wash his face to get a negative result. Both
false positives and false negatives were extremely common with the
test.
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
>In article <43c33913...@129.250.170.82>, John McAdams says...
>>
>>On 9 Jan 2006 14:17:07 -0800, "Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>THE PARAFFIN TEST
>>>
>>> At about 2:50 pm, suspected of having killed officer Tippit, Oswald
>>>was given a paraffin test on both hands and his right cheek to
>>>determine whether or not he had fired a weapon. When a handgun is
>>>fired, the explosion of the gunpowder causes a dispersion of nitrates
>>>on the hand in which it is held.
>>>
>>> In reality, the paraffin test shows the presence of oxidizers.
>>>Nitrates are one of many oxidizers.
>>> The WCR, Appendix X, "The Paraffin Test." wrote:
>>>
>>> "In fact, however, the test is completely unreliable in determining
>>>either whether a person has recently fired a weapon or whether he has
>>>not. On the one hand, diphenylamine and diphenylbenzidine will react
>>>positively not only with nitrates from gunpowder residues, but nitrates
>>>from other sources and most oxidizing agents, including dichromates,
>>>permanganates, hypochlorates, periodares, and some oxides."
>>>
>>> In other words, the test is unreliable only if the results are
>>>POSITIVE. A NEGATIVE result is PROOF that there are no oxidizers on the
>>>body, in this case, the cheek.
>>
>>That's just silly.
>
>
>No, actually a person who can't support his statements is silly. Without going
>through the bother of looking at your webpage, I predict that you have *NO
>ANSWER* to why the WC buried this evidence.
>
Translation: I won't look at evidence, I'll just repeat factoids.
>
>
>>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid2.htm
>>
What I do on this page is quote standard forensics texts. The stuff
written by forensics experts, and taught in colleges and police
academies.
This isn't buff literature. It's professional law enforcement stuff.
That's important, since the authors appear not to even care about the
JFK assassination. At least, they don't mention it.
.John
tomnln
You kindly supported that "Validity/Value". THANKS
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c8f3f0$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
"SDL" <sdl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43c7a928$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
The comment was Never intended for you to fear an old man on the other side
of a computer.
It was intended to warn you that whatever degree of Law you advocated for
others may some day be applied to You.
=================================================================================
tomnln
As you would expect from handling Boxes of Books.
Any shooters right hand would be covered by the Pistol he was holding.
Certainly NOT Both.
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:43c95465....@news.alt.net...