Did Oswald's rifle come with a clip?

[Canuck]

When Oswald ordered the M-C through a Chicago mail-order company, the ad
describing the M-C also offered a 100 rounds of ammunition, which came
with a free clip. This would suggest that the M-C didn't include a clip,
as Oswald did not purchase any ammo. Was the clip purchased elsewhere,
perhaps the same place where Oswald obtained his four bullets? Btw, the
FBI was unable to ascertain where the bullets came from, canvassing the
Dallas-Ft. Worth and New Orleans gun shops to no avail. - prwhitmey

[Bud]

Is it possible that Oswald ordered the bullets and clip from Klein`s
separately? Is it possible the FBI searched Klein`s records for
Carcano rifle sales only?

[David Von Pein]

Bud,

I guess it's possible Oswald ordered the bullets separately from
Klein's, but it would seem odd for him to do so, since the same ad he
used to order the rifle also had an option for 108 rounds of ammo
(with a free clip). Why waste another stamp to order just the bullets?

Oswald, of course, didn't have much money, so it's possible he had to
save a little more cash ($7.50) in order to purchase his bullets.

This is the Nov. '63 ad, but the one Oswald sent in in March had these
exact same extra purchasing options too:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RT8YF1h9-2Y/UPVcBtggtcI/AAAAAAAAp8Y/P9_vbUq7Pms/s1600/Kleins-Rifle-Ad.png

[Canuck]

Why are you answering my question with two more questions? The ad
included 100 rounds with a free clip. Since there is no evidence Oswald
fired his rifle prior to Nov. 22 (nor is there solid evidence indicating
he fired it on Nov. 22 either), he probably didn't feel it was necessary
to purchase ammunition. The FBI clearly knew that no ammunition was
purchased from Klein's or else they wouldn't have bothered checking gun
shops in Dallas-Ft. Worth and New Orleans.

-prwhitmey

[Walt]

Klrins didn't have any CIA ammo.....They offered the old Italian (SMI)
ammo. So the ammo didn't come from Kleins.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/31/2013 10:37 PM, Canuck wrote:
> On Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Bud wrote:
>> On Mar 31, 6:08 pm, Canuck <prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> When Oswald ordered the M-C through a Chicago mail-order company, the ad
>>
>>> describing the M-C also offered a 100 rounds of ammunition, which came
>>
>>> with a free clip. This would suggest that the M-C didn't include a clip,
>>
>>> as Oswald did not purchase any ammo. Was the clip purchased elsewhere,
>>
>>> perhaps the same place where Oswald obtained his four bullets? Btw, the
>>
>>> FBI was unable to ascertain where the bullets came from, canvassing the
>>
>>> Dallas-Ft. Worth and New Orleans gun shops to no avail. - prwhitmey
>>
>>
>>
>> Is it possible that Oswald ordered the bullets and clip from Klein`s
>>
>> separately? Is it possible the FBI searched Klein`s records for
>>
>> Carcano rifle sales only?
>
> Why are you answering my question with two more questions? The ad
> included 100 rounds with a free clip. Since there is no evidence Oswald

A separate item in the ad was 108 rounds with a free clip. That was the
Italian SMI ammo which is of dubious quality.

> fired his rifle prior to Nov. 22 (nor is there solid evidence indicating
> he fired it on Nov. 22 either), he probably didn't feel it was necessary
> to purchase ammunition. The FBI clearly knew that no ammunition was

He might not have needed that much ammo. He was better off buying 2
boxes of 20 rounds each.
He could buy ammo locally.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/31/2013 10:34 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> Bud,
>
> I guess it's possible Oswald ordered the bullets separately from
> Klein's, but it would seem odd for him to do so, since the same ad he
> used to order the rifle also had an option for 108 rounds of ammo
> (with a free clip). Why waste another stamp to order just the bullets?
>

Maybe he did want to blow $7.50 on so many rounds when he only needed a
few.

[Anthony Marsh]

No. Klein's didn't sell the WCC ammo. He could have bought SMI ammo
which did include a clip.
You really don't know anything about the assassination, do you?

[Bud]

Can you back this up?

[Bud]

On Mar 31, 10:37 pm, Canuck <prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Bud wrote:
> > On Mar 31, 6:08 pm, Canuck <prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > When Oswald ordered the M-C through a Chicago mail-order company, the ad
>
> > > describing the M-C also offered a 100 rounds of ammunition, which came
>
> > > with a free clip.  This would suggest that the M-C didn't include a clip,
>
> > > as Oswald did not purchase any ammo.  Was the clip purchased elsewhere,
>
> > > perhaps the same place where Oswald obtained his four bullets?  Btw, the
>
> > > FBI was unable to ascertain where the bullets came from, canvassing the
>
> > > Dallas-Ft. Worth and New Orleans gun shops to no avail. - prwhitmey
>
> >   Is it possible that Oswald ordered the bullets and clip from Klein`s
>
> > separately? Is it possible the FBI searched Klein`s records for
>
> > Carcano rifle sales only?
>
> Why are you answering my question with two more questions?

Because you seemed to be ruling out the ammo came from Kleins.

> The ad
> included 100 rounds with a free clip.  Since there is no evidence Oswald
> fired his rifle prior to Nov. 22 (nor is there solid evidence indicating
> he fired it on Nov. 22 either), he probably didn't feel it was necessary
> to purchase ammunition.  The FBI clearly knew that no ammunition was
> purchased from Klein's or else they wouldn't have bothered checking gun
> shops in Dallas-Ft. Worth and New Orleans.

So you are willing to assume.

> -prwhitmey

[Bud]

On Mar 31, 10:34 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> Bud,
>
> I guess it's possible Oswald ordered the bullets separately from
> Klein's, but it would seem odd for him to do so, since the same ad he
> used to order the rifle also had an option for 108 rounds of ammo
> (with a free clip). Why waste another stamp to order just the bullets?

Hard to say. If the bullets and clip were ordered separately, it
would come in a fairly small box he could have shipped right to his
door under any name he chose.

> Oswald, of course, didn't have much money, so it's possible he had to
> save a little more cash ($7.50) in order to purchase his bullets.
>
> This is the Nov. '63 ad, but the one Oswald sent in in March had these
> exact same extra purchasing options too:
>

> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RT8YF1h9-2Y/UPVcBtggtcI/AAAAAAAAp8Y/P9_vbUq...

Thanks for including that, it says that the bullets are Italian
military, that mean it`s not WCC. Of course that doesn`t rule out that
Kleins had and shipped WCC also. But this may have been what turned Oswald
off from buying ammo from Kleins. He might have thought it was WW2
surplus, which would be around 20 years old. He might have decided to hunt
down American made ammo for his rifle because he didn`t trust the Italian
ammo.

For anyone interested I looked into where the authorities were getting
the bullets they were using for testing. Frazier doesn`t say, only that he
bought them, but apparently not from Kleins since he says he didn`t get a
clip from them when he got the CE250 rifle from them. Oliver says this...

"Dr. OLIVIER. I obtained 100 rounds from Remington at Bridgeport, Conn.,
and Dr. Dziemian obtained another 160 rounds, I believe, from Winchester
in New Haven."

Apparently there were 4 lots made of WWC, a million rounds each lot.

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, almost every place sold the rifle without a clip. Then buying the
SMI a free clip would be included.

As far as we know no one sold WCC bullets one by one. We think he bought a
box or 20 rounds, maybe two boxes.

Fritz also looked around locally and could not find who sold them to
Oswald.

[Ace Kefford]

Here we go again back in the time machine to the mid-1960s or at the
latest mid-1970s when this was a hot and new issue. This topic has been
covered by many as I am sure you know. There are always loose ends in any
research into a historical event.

[Research]

"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1954309e-ede7-4f0d...@n2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

What a piece of crap drawing!!!! What kind of evidence is this? Looks like
you trying to frame Oswald, yourself? Yeah, yeah. It's a reproduction of
some book's interputation of LNer crap. Less than that, it is nothing. Try
posting real evidence for a change. It's bad enough some of these
"EXPERTS" don't know what they talking about, but you guys try to confuse
us amateurs at every turn. But didn't work this time. Oswald didn't order
any bullets or a clip. But the WC had one in evidence with absolutely no
chain of evidence. Just like the rifle chain of evidence leading back to
Oswald is flawed. More than that if you experts ever bothered to follow
the chain you would find the Waldman exhibit is a bunch of made up hooeys.

[Research]

"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:be59701e-db1d-49e7...@r6g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

Yeah. You tell'em.

I think the commissioners couldn't frame Oswald with the bullets so they
claimed they were widely available. Yeah Oswald may have been every bit a
nut. Cause why else would he attempt such a feat with only four bullets.
Then travel across town to retrieve his pistol that he could have brought
with him? If he was going to the Paines to get his rifle, Why wouldn't he
take his pistol so he would have a back-up weapon. Cause he only had 4
shells and NO OTHERS were ever found. Just doesn't add up?

[John McAdams]

On 1 Apr 2013 21:49:43 -0400, "Research" <quest...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

He may well have learned that Kennedy's motorcade was passing by the
Depository on the 21st.

Remember, he did not by a newspaper. He read what he found lying
around.

If that was the case, on the morning of the 21st (when he told Frazier
he needed to go to Irving to pick up "curtain rods") he had the option
of getting the rifle, or the pistol, but not both.

.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Walt]

On Mar 31, 9:34 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> Bud,
>
> I guess it's possible Oswald ordered the bullets separately from
> Klein's, but it would seem odd for him to do so, since the same ad he
> used to order the rifle also had an option for 108 rounds of ammo
> (with a free clip). Why waste another stamp to order just the bullets?

If you knew just a little about this you'd know that the carcano ammo
sold by Klein's was the old Italian ammo (NOT CIA ammo) so anybody
who bought that ammo would receive 18 clips......Because the italian
ammo was packaged in clips of six cartridges per clip,.... three clips
to a carton ( 18 cartridges) and 6 cartons to a box....for a total of
108 rounds assembled in 18 clips.

>
> Oswald, of course, didn't have much money, so it's possible he had to
> save a little more cash ($7.50) in order to purchase his bullets.
>
> This is the Nov. '63 ad, but the one Oswald sent in in March had these
> exact same extra purchasing options too:
>

> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RT8YF1h9-2Y/UPVcBtggtcI/AAAAAAAAp8Y/P9_vbUq...

[Walt]

The American made ammo (WCC) was available AFTER the assassination but NOT
before.....And it was much more expensive than the old Italian (SMI) ammo.
I have never found a single ad for Western Cartridge Company Carcano ammo
in any of the old magazines that were published BEFORE the assassination.
That WCC ammo was made for the CIA.

[Walt]

On Apr 1, 8:49 pm, "Research" <questio...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message

What???......You don't believe it? How dare you doubt the veracity
of your ol Unca Sam......

[Walt]

On Apr 1, 8:52 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> On 1 Apr 2013 21:49:43 -0400, "Research" <questio...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message

Psssst..... Most researchers know that the pistol was in Lee's room
in Oakcliff and the Paines garage was in Irving.....

IF IF IF ...the rifle was actually in the Paines garage on Friday
November 22, 1963 is doubtful.



>
> .John
> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/1/2013 10:08 PM, Walt wrote:
> On Mar 31, 9:34 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Bud,
>>
>> I guess it's possible Oswald ordered the bullets separately from
>> Klein's, but it would seem odd for him to do so, since the same ad he
>> used to order the rifle also had an option for 108 rounds of ammo
>> (with a free clip). Why waste another stamp to order just the bullets?
>
> If you knew just a little about this you'd know that the carcano ammo
> sold by Klein's was the old Italian ammo (NOT CIA ammo) so anybody
> who bought that ammo would receive 18 clips......Because the italian
> ammo was packaged in clips of six cartridges per clip,.... three clips
> to a carton ( 18 cartridges) and 6 cartons to a box....for a total of
> 108 rounds assembled in 18 clips.
>

He didn't pick up on the clue that they selling it y the 108 round
case. Many mail order ads specified Italian ammo, but I can't remember
one that said SMI.
I wonder if anyone sold any 1891 ammo.

[Anthony Marsh]

What about the TV? Marina had been watching the TV. Wasn't the motorcade
announced on TV the night before?

> .John
> --------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Compare it to his meticulous planning for the Walker assassination. This
suggests to me that Oswald was not planning to assassinate President
Kennedy. How far is he going to get on $13?

If the WCC bullets were widely available tell me where he bought them.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/1/2013 9:48 PM, Research wrote:
> "David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1954309e-ede7-4f0d...@n2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>> Bud,
>>
>> I guess it's possible Oswald ordered the bullets separately from
>> Klein's, but it would seem odd for him to do so, since the same ad he
>> used to order the rifle also had an option for 108 rounds of ammo
>> (with a free clip). Why waste another stamp to order just the bullets?
>>
>> Oswald, of course, didn't have much money, so it's possible he had to
>> save a little more cash ($7.50) in order to purchase his bullets.
>>
>> This is the Nov. '63 ad, but the one Oswald sent in in March had these
>> exact same extra purchasing options too:
>>
>> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RT8YF1h9-2Y/UPVcBtggtcI/AAAAAAAAp8Y/P9_vbUq7Pms/s1600/Kleins-Rifle-Ad.png
>>
>
> What a piece of crap drawing!!!! What kind of evidence is this? Looks like
> you trying to frame Oswald, yourself? Yeah, yeah. It's a reproduction of
> some book's interputation of LNer crap. Less than that, it is nothing. Try
> posting real evidence for a change. It's bad enough some of these

I don't get your point. You know the WC defenders are stuck with only
very poor quality 10th generation copies. It is only the conspiracy
kooks who have the original ads. Feel pity for them.

> "EXPERTS" don't know what they talking about, but you guys try to confuse
> us amateurs at every turn. But didn't work this time. Oswald didn't order
> any bullets or a clip. But the WC had one in evidence with absolutely no
> chain of evidence. Just like the rifle chain of evidence leading back to

Why would Oswald need to keep a receipt? Was he going to return it if it
didn't work properly?

> Oswald is flawed. More than that if you experts ever bothered to follow
> the chain you would find the Waldman exhibit is a bunch of made up hooeys.
>
>
>

Silly.

[David Von Pein]

>>> "If you knew just a little about this you'd know that the carcano ammo
sold by Klein's was the old Italian ammo (NOT CIA ammo) so anybody who
bought that ammo would receive 18 clips......Because the italian ammo was
packaged in clips of six cartridges per clip,.... three clips to a carton
( 18 cartridges) and 6 cartons to a box....for a total of 108 rounds
assembled in 18 clips." <<<

LOL.

[Canuck]

Again, what happened to the unused bullets? - prwhitmey

[Walt]

On Mar 31, 5:08 pm, Canuck <prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> When Oswald ordered the M-C through a Chicago mail-order company, the ad
> describing the M-C also offered a 100 rounds of ammunition, which came
> with a free clip.  This would suggest that the M-C didn't include a clip,
> as Oswald did not purchase any ammo.  Was the clip purchased elsewhere,
> perhaps the same place where Oswald obtained his four bullets?  Btw, the
> FBI was unable to ascertain where the bullets came from, canvassing the
> Dallas-Ft. Worth and New Orleans gun shops to no avail. - prwhitmey

The Klein ad offered ammo for the carcano in 108 cartridge package NOT 100
cartridges......

The fact that they bullets came in a 108 round package indicates that the
ammo was the old Italian SMI ammo, because thats how the ammo was packaged
for the Italian army. That ammo was prepared for the army in six round
clips so a soldier could simply grab a clip of six cartridges insert the
clip of bullets into his rofle and be fuly loaded. Apparently some folks
believe that the bullets were loose and not assembled in a
clip......because that's the way the american manufactures packaged the
carcano ammo in 100 round packages. The clips were reusable and they were
not a part of the rifle until they were inserted into the
rifle.....IOW...... a clip is necessary to load live ammo into the
carcano and the clip becomes an integral part of the loading mechanism
when it is in the rifle ......so if a person only had one clip he could
fire six shots whereupon the empty clip would fall out of the rifle, he
could then set six fresh live cartridges inthe empty clip and insert that
clip back into the rifle and repet the procedure over and over.......

[Bud]

Why would the CIA be interested in ammo that could easily be traced
back to them?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/1/2013 9:27 PM, Bud wrote:
> On Mar 31, 10:34 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Bud,
>>
>> I guess it's possible Oswald ordered the bullets separately from
>> Klein's, but it would seem odd for him to do so, since the same ad he
>> used to order the rifle also had an option for 108 rounds of ammo
>> (with a free clip). Why waste another stamp to order just the bullets?
>
> Hard to say. If the bullets and clip were ordered separately, it
> would come in a fairly small box he could have shipped right to his
> door under any name he chose.
>
>> Oswald, of course, didn't have much money, so it's possible he had to
>> save a little more cash ($7.50) in order to purchase his bullets.
>>
>> This is the Nov. '63 ad, but the one Oswald sent in in March had these
>> exact same extra purchasing options too:
>>
>> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RT8YF1h9-2Y/UPVcBtggtcI/AAAAAAAAp8Y/P9_vbUq...
>
> Thanks for including that, it says that the bullets are Italian
> military, that mean it`s not WCC. Of course that doesn`t rule out that
> Kleins had and shipped WCC also. But this may have been what turned Oswald

Yes, it does. Klein's never stocked, advertised or sold the WCC ammo.

> off from buying ammo from Kleins. He might have thought it was WW2
> surplus, which would be around 20 years old. He might have decided to hunt
> down American made ammo for his rifle because he didn`t trust the Italian
> ammo.
>

That is one distinct possibility. More likely he was too cheap to buy
108 rounds.

[Anthony Marsh]

Their ad said 108 rounds of Italian military ammo. That was made only by
SMI.

[Anthony Marsh]

Not true. Mason had the ammo in stock, but denied selling any to Oswald.
Do some research instead of guessing your way through life.

[Walt]

Thank you...Good question...... The plotters were unaware that the spent
shells they planted were any different than the Italian ammo.... They
just knew that they had trained with the carcano rifle and used the ammo
that was provided by their leaders ( the CIA) So when they decided to
murder that SOB back stabbin JFK and frame that SOB Castro lover Oswald
for the murder they didn't even think about the spent shells ...... The
simply assumed that they were Carcano cartridges like all carcano
cartridges and didn't give it a second thought.

[Walt]

Nonsense.....Oswald was nothing but a patsy.......

[Walt]

There was only one Live round found .....It was in the rifle which was
buried beneath boxes of books on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
There was only three spent shells and one live round
planted ....That's it....

[Walt]

If Mason had some of that WCC ammo for sale he obtained from the
CIA.....either by stealing it from their warehouses or getting it from
someone who had access to that ammo like Guy Bannister.....

[Anthony Marsh]

Stop being ridiculous. The CIA ammo was put on the surplus market.

[Anthony Marsh]

You are not thinking through your conspiracy theory. First you say that
the WCC could only be obtained from the CIA directly. Then you claim
that the plotters were unaware that the WCC shells you say they planted
were any different from the SMI. Anyone who has ever handled the Italian
ammo knows the difference immediately. I knew it from across the room at
a glance. And you think the plotters handpicked the shells.

> just knew that they had trained with the carcano rifle and used the ammo
> that was provided by their leaders ( the CIA) So when they decided to
> murder that SOB back stabbin JFK and frame that SOB Castro lover Oswald
> for the murder they didn't even think about the spent shells ...... The
> simply assumed that they were Carcano cartridges like all carcano
> cartridges and didn't give it a second thought.
>

Sounds like you are accusing the Cuban exiles. But you are making up
things from your imagination. The Cuban exiles did not use Carcanos.
And are you seriously claiming that Oswald never bought any ammo for his
Carcano?
Then how do you explain this DPD evidence card:

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/7768.gif

[Anthony Marsh]

Just ignore him. He's making up crap.

[Anthony Marsh]

1 for Walker. Several for target practice.

[Anthony Marsh]

Explain your sarcasm.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/2/2013 9:30 PM, Walt wrote:

Why do you do this to yourself? Is it some type of self-loathing.
Obviously you don't have the WC volumes and you can't figure out how to
find them online. The FBI interviewed Masen who bought 10 boxes of the
WCC ammo from Brinegar in early 1963.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0050a.htm

LEE HARVEY OSWALD
On March 11, 1964, Mr . John Thomas Masen, owner, Masen's
Gun Shop, 7402 Harry Hines Blvd ., Dallas, Texas, advised he handled
6 .5 ammunition and had acquired this ammunition from John Brinegar,
owner of The Gun Shop, telephone CH 7-2600 .
The photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald was exhibited to Mr . Masen
and he advised he was unable to identify this individual qs being
a person to whom he had previously sold 6 .5 ammunition .
Mr . Masen stated people in the gun repair business in the
vicinity of Love Field, Dallas, normally use the Trinity river bottom
as a place to test fire rifles . He advised the river levee is
sufficiently high to provide ample safety . Mr . Masen stated he
frequently used the Trinity river bnttnm to test fire guns . He
described this place as being approximately two miles west of his
gun shop . This area was checked and no cartridge cases or live
ammunition was found . Mr . Masen stated the only other gun shop
located in the vieinity of Love Field was the gun shop owned by
John Brinegar .
On March 12, 1964, Mr . John H . Brinegar, owner, The Gun
Shop, 11448 Harry Hines Blvd ., telephone CH 7-2600, Dallas, Texas,
advised he has been a gunsmith for the past 30 years . He stated at
the end of World War II, "GI's" began bringing Italian Carcano 6 .5
rifles back to the United States . He advised that subsequently New
York gun dealers began importing this rifle from Italy by "boat loads"
and, as a consequence, this rifle has had wide distribution .
Mr . Brinegar stated this rifle was a very cheap rifle and could have
been purchased for $3 .00 each in lots of 25 . Mr . Brinegar advised
that likewise 6 .5 ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge
Company also had wide distribution throughout the United States and
could be purchased through any number of wholesale dealers .
Mr . Brinegar advised that in his personal opinion the
scope of the rifle used by Lee Harvey Oswald would have been mounted
by the factory . He explained that in mounting the scope the bolt
would have to be altered . This expense plus the expense of drilling
the necessary holes for the scope mounting would amount to not less
than $15 .00 and it would be impractical to spend this amount on a
$3 .00 gun .
COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2694-Continued

LEE HARVEY OSWALD
Mr . Brinegar advised that people test firing rifles as a
rule would either do so at a gun club or would use the Trinity river
bottom. He explained that the levee on either side of the river,
about 35 feet high, provides a suitable abutment .
The photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald was exhibited to Mr .
Brinegar and he stated he was not able to identify this individual
as being a person to whom he had previously sold 6 .5 ammunition.
On March 23, 1964, Mr . R . W. Botts, District Manager,
Winchester-Western Division, Olin Matbieson Chemical Corporation,
Braniff Building, advised the Western Cartridge Company, a division
of Olin Industries, East Alton, Illinois, manufactured a quantity of
6 .5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian Government
during World War II . At the and of the war the Italian Carcano rifle,
and no telling how much of this type ammunition, was sold to the United
States gun brokers and dealers and subsequently wan distributed by
direct sales to wholesalers, retailers, and individual purchasers .
Mr . Botts stated there was no known complete list of places
of business in Dallas which might have handled this type ammunition .
He advised he could only suggest that places normally or possibly
handling this ammunition would be set forth in the Classified Section
of the telephone directory under guns, hardware companies, pawn shops,
department stores, sporting goods stores, discount stores, and Army and
Navy surplus stores . He stated that such list would not be all
inclusive as it was possible that a person, kuch as a "reloader," might
have purchased some of this ammunition as it could be reloaded in the
United States, whereas, the 6 .5 Italian Carcano ammunition could not
be reloaded in the United States .
In an effort to locate a source of supply of the 6 .5 M/M
Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company, ammunition where Loe
Harvey Oswald purchased ammunition for his Carcano rifle, a telephone
canvass was made of all places of business in the Dallas add Irving
area listed in the current Dallas-Irving Classified Section of the
telephone directories under listings of ammunition, guns, hardware
stores, pawn shops, department stores, discount stores, sporting
- 12 -
COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2694-Continued

LEE HARVEY OSWALD
goods stores, and Army and Navy surplus stores . This telephone contact
was made with each such place located and each person contacted was
questioned as to whether he had ever handled the 6 .5 M/M Mannlicher-
Carcano, Western Cartridge Company, ammunition, and if he knew of
any source handling this type ammunition .
Only the two following listed places were located as a
result of this telephone canvass :
John Thomas Mason, owner, Mason's. Gun Shop, 7402 Harry
Hines Boulevard, Dallas ;
John H . Brinegar, Owner . The Gun Shop, 11448 Harry Hines
Boulevard, Dallas .
On March 26, 1964, Mr . John Thomas Mason, owner ; Mason's Gun
Shop, 7402 Harry Hines Boulevard, telephone number FL 7-4758, residence
address 3023 Mayhew, telephone number BR 9-5525, advised he purchased
about ten boxes of 6 .5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge
Company, ammunition from Johnny Brinegar in early 1963 and that he
sold these ten boxes to individuals . He stated he was not able to
recall the identity of any persons to whom he sold this ammunition .
He claimed he sold this ammunition with a military load . He advised
if he had sold more than a box or two to any one person he would have
remembered the sale .
Mr . Mason stated he purchased another ten boxes of this same
type ammunition from Brinegar, date not recalled, but possibly during
the summer of 1963 . He claimed this ammunition was being used
principally .for deer hunting and he'pulled"the bullets in the last
batch and reloaded it with a hunting-type bullet (lead nose) . He
advised he used a Herter"s Bullet Puller in changing these bullet* .
He stated he had only two boxes of this ammunition at present,'
Mr . Mason claimed he had never seen Lee Harvey Osvald, had
no recollection of his ever having come to his place of business, and_
he had never sold any of this ammunition to Oswald .
- 13 -

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 2694-Continued

LEE HARVEY OSWALD
Mr . Mason stated he has operated Mason's Gun Shop at this
location alone since 1961 .
Mr . Mason volunteered that he put himself through college
by working as a gunsmith ; that he attended Sul Rose College, Alpine,
Texas ; Arlington State College, Arlington, Texas ; University of Houston,
Houston, Texas ; and Monterrey University, Monterrey, Mexico . He claimed
he spoke Spanish fluently .
Mr . Mason stated that during the summer of 1963 he made an
extensive vacation trip to Mexico, visiting friends in various places,
including the "Mendoza Brothers," Guadalajara, Mexico, who owned an
arms manufacturing plant .
On March 26, 1964, Mr . John H . Brinegar, owner, The Gun
Shop, 11448 Harry Hines Boulevard, telephone CH 7-2600, advised he
purchased one case of 6 .5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge
Company, ammunition from the cAntury Arms Company, Alexandria, West
Virginia, in 1962 after seeing it advertised, as he recalled, for
$45 per 1000 rounds . Mr . Brinegar stated he sold about ten boxes
of this ammunition to John Mason, owner, Mason's Gun Shop, in early
1963 and traded him another ten boxes later, possibly during the
summer, 1963, He advised he has six boxes of this ammunition left
at present .
Mr . Brinegar stated he"pulled'the bullets from some of
this ammunition and reloaded ".:ith a hunting load (soft node)
and others he sold with the military load .
Mr . Brinegar stated he did not know Lee Harvey Oswald, had
no recollection of ever seeing him, and did not believe he had sold
him any of this type ammunition .
Mr . Brinegar stated he has operated his gun shop alone for
about thirty years in Dallas County . He advised that for years his
place of business was located on Valley View Road, three-quarters Of &
mile west of Farmers Branch, Texas, mailing address Post Offixe Box
149, Carrollton, Texas, until November 1, 1963, when be moved to his
- 14 -
COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 2694-Continued

LEE HARM OSWALD
present address . Be stated he had his own rifle range at the Valley
View Road address, but closed this range January 1, 1963 .
Mr . Brinsgar stated the 6 .5 M/M rifle was rather common in
the Dallas area and he felt that the larger gun dealers, pawn shops,
sporting goods, and H. L . Green Company stores would have handled
the 6 .5 M/M Mannlichar-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company, ammunition,
as he recalled seeing ads for this 6 .5 ammunition. He explained that
there were a number of different 6 .5 M/M types of ammunition, but that
only the ammunition manufactured by the Italians sad the 6 .5 M/M
Mamlicher-Carcano could be used in the Italian Carcano rifle .
On Horeb 26, 1964, two boxes, 20 rounds each, of 6 .5 KIM
Msunlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company, ammunition were obtained
for forwarding to the laboratory of the Federal Bureau of Investi
gation . One box loaded with a hunting load (soft nose) was obtained
from John Thomps Mason, and the other, which was a military load,
was obtained from John H . Brinegar .
On larch 25, 1964, Mr . Richard C . Lopez, 4427 McKinney
Avenue, Apartmmnt ;~A, employed as a salesman, Moor@-B~iles Company,
Inc' ., 407 North Rii!ay Street, Dallas, advised he formerly was employed
by the H . L . Greeh Company . go stated he worked first! as a stock
clerk and was later made a salesman in the Gun Department in October
or November, 1963, exact date not recalled . He advised that at that
time A1 Yeargan was the manager of the Gun Department at R. L . Green
Company . He stated to his knowledge, H. L . Green Company never did
handle any 6 .5 M/M Msnnlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company,
a-coition . Lopez stated the store did handle the Carcano rifle and
a 6 .5 Italian ammunition for the gun . He advised as he recalled, the
base of the shell casing had "SIM" or "SMI" stamped on it and that
all of the ammunition was of a military load .
Lopez stated he did not know Lee Harvey Oswald and was
unable to identify his photograph as a person visiting the H . L .
Green Gun Department while he was employed there .
- 15 -
COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2694-Continued

QED

[Bud]

You didn`t understand my question. It is your contention that the CIA
had the WCC bullets made for their own purposes. Why wouldn`t the CIA
order Italian made ammo, why would they want ammo that could be easily
traced to them?

[Walt]

Yes you're right..... The WCC ammo was sold to the public AFTER the
assassination ....but BEFORE the assassination it was the property of the
CIA . The Cuban exiles had used some of it for training for the invasion
of Cuba which was a CIA operation. Some of those Cuban's despised John
Kennedy ...... They were familiar with Mannlicher Carcano rifles and
ammo.... and they had easy access to both.........

[John Fiorentino]

Firstly it wasn't easy. In fact it is not conclusive today.

Although its quite apparent.

There are still many questions about the ammo.

John F.



"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:fc4cff43-849d-47bf...@p12g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...

[John Fiorentino]

The WCC 6'5 ammo was most likely ordered by the CIA, with the Army and/or
Marines used as a front.

The ammo didn't fit any US weapons and was destined for some clandestine
operation that is still quite murky.

John F.




"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message

news:c7d256e6-7e3d-4942...@r1g2000yql.googlegroups.com...

[Walt]

Exactly right.....Remember "Umbrella man" pulling the umbrella to remind
JFK that he had betrayed them by pulling the "umbrella of air cover" at
BOP.

Remember the red rings in the windows of the TSBD to remind JFK that they
had placed red ring markers on the beaches at BOP to identify themselves
for their nonexistant "umbrella of air cover".

Apparently you've been too damned busy telling everybody how smart you are
to actually LOOK at the videos of the Cuban exiles training with
Mannlicher Carcanos.... Why do you think many Carcanos are stamped "made
in Italy"?

The CIA had those Carcanos stamped "made in Italy to make it look like the
exiles had received the guns from Italy and not the CIA.

[Walt]

Huh????Are you serious? The CIA used the USMC as a broker for the
purchase of four million rounds of 6.5mm Carcano ammo from WCC. You think
the United States Marine Corp would place an order for four million rounds
of 6.5mm Carcano ammo with the Italian government??? You are sooooo
naive......

[Walt]

> http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_00...

> $45 ...
>
>

All Pure BS!!..... Are you forgetting that Lee Oswald argued with Carlos
BRINEGAR in a radio debate in New orleans Brinegar was a exile Cuban who
was "fluent in Spanish" and a CIA operative. Have you ever seen the ad
that Brinegar said that he saw when he ordered the ammo??...... You
haven't.... because NONE of that ammo was for sale to the public....

[Canuck]

Do you think it was Oswald who made a scene at a firing range a few
weekends before the assassination? It's interesting to note that Wesley
Liebeler showed photos of Larry Crafard (real name Curtis Craford, who
died two years ago) to a father and son, who were certain it was Oswald. -
prwhitmey

[Anthony Marsh]

NO. That story was ridiculous.

[Anthony Marsh]

Because the SMI ammo was unreliable. The WCC ammo was made to the SMI
specifications. The market that they were planning to send it to did not
care if it could be traced back to the US.

[Bud]

On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net>
wrote:

> The WCC 6'5 ammo was most likely ordered by the CIA, with the Army and/or
> Marines used as a front.

"mostly likely" meaning this is what you`ve decided to believe?

> The ammo didn't fit any US weapons and was destined for some clandestine
> operation that is still quite murky.

Maybe it`s murky because the trees are being barked up. Has anyone
looked to see if there was a reason given for the ammunition being
made besides conspiracy folks doing their famous "figuring", which
hasn`t proven itself to be so reliable in the past?

Seems to me that if the CIA wanted Carcano ammo they would just
purchase using from some front from the Italians. They wouldn`t use
ammo stamped with an American brand, that wouldn`t even fool Walt.
Might as well give them American rifles.

> John F.
>
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message

[Bud]

You are just making unsupported claims, you aren`t showing anything.

>  You think
> the United States Marine Corp would place an order for four million rounds
> of 6.5mm Carcano ammo with the Italian government???

Is this you admitting you can`t back up what you say with anything
tangible? What you imagine occurred is not really evidence of
anything, Walt.

Why would the CIA use bullets stamped by an American manufacturer
for clandestine purposes?

>You are sooooo
> naive......

Not naive enough to think that your figuring has any value. That you
can follow such a trial shows why the CIA would not lay such a trail.

[Walt]

I've always suspected that it was Crafard who witnesses saw trotting away
from the scene of Tippit's murder. Crafard was Ruby's hired hand who
lived with Ruby. According to Crafard's uncle in Michigan Curtis had
always been bad news. His uncle said that he was a punk and a ner- do-
well who travel with carnivals, where he operated shooting galleries and
became very skilled with guns. Crafard fled Dallas on Saturday 11/23/63
and went to northern Michigan ( not far from the Canadian border) He was
found there by the FBI and was questioned for the Warren Commission who
must have strong suspicions about his affiliation with Jack Ruby.

[Walt]

NO!, your response is ridiculous.

[Walt]

My oh my, aren't you a good "monday morning quarterback"? If you knew
anything about the CIA sponsered attacks against Cuba you'd know that the
CIA people who were at the helm weren't the brighest bulbs on the tree. E
Howard Hunt and associates didn't worry about details like the ammo being
stamped WCC because it couldn't be traced to the CIA by any foriegn nation
because it had been purchased through a USMC contract. I'm quite certain
that if any question ever arose about how the Cuban exiles obtained the
ammo the USMC would have been prepared to reveal that they had provided an
ally nation with the ammo..... and they didn't know how the Cuban exiles
had acquired it.

[Anthony Marsh]

Silly. You refuse to look at the evidence.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/WCC-CIA.gif

>> You think
>> the United States Marine Corp would place an order for four million rounds
>> of 6.5mm Carcano ammo with the Italian government???
>
> Is this you admitting you can`t back up what you say with anything
> tangible? What you imagine occurred is not really evidence of
> anything, Walt.
>

The FBI.

> Why would the CIA use bullets stamped by an American manufacturer
> for clandestine purposes?
>

Stupidity? How about the B-26 Bombers they used for the Bay of Pigs
invasion which could be traced back to the last CIA project in the Congo.
A couple of smart reporters instantly spotted the difference which told
them that they came from the CIA. Adlai Stevenson almost resigned over
that screw-up.

Which is why JFK took military operations away from the CIA. Damn bunch of
incompetents.

>> You are sooooo
>> naive......
>
> Not naive enough to think that your figuring has any value. That you
> can follow such a trial shows why the CIA would not lay such a trail.
>

SOP.
You know nothing about the CIA.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/4/2013 7:26 AM, Bud wrote:
> On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net>
> wrote:
>> The WCC 6'5 ammo was most likely ordered by the CIA, with the Army and/or
>> Marines used as a front.
>
> "mostly likely" meaning this is what you`ve decided to believe?
>

"Most likely" meaning that is what the FBI said.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/WCC-CIA.gif

>> The ammo didn't fit any US weapons and was destined for some clandestine
>> operation that is still quite murky.
>
> Maybe it`s murky because the trees are being barked up. Has anyone
> looked to see if there was a reason given for the ammunition being
> made besides conspiracy folks doing their famous "figuring", which
> hasn`t proven itself to be so reliable in the past?
>

Yes, the FBI. Ever hear of them? They're such conspiracy kooks, aren't they?

> Seems to me that if the CIA wanted Carcano ammo they would just
> purchase using from some front from the Italians. They wouldn`t use
> ammo stamped with an American brand, that wouldn`t even fool Walt.
> Might as well give them American rifles.
>

No, the Italian ammo was old and unreliable. Plus then needed 4 million
rounds, not just 2 boxes. Remember, this was back in 1954.

[John Fiorentino]

I'm sorry you haven't done your homework. But I have posted about this
many times over the years.

Here's the FBI memo:
FBI
US Government Memo
Date: 12/2/63
To: Unreadable
From: ? H. Jovens
Subject : ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

My memorandum of 11/22/63, set out additional information relating to the
sale and distribution of the Western manufactured 6.5 mm
Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition used in the assassination. That memorandum
was written in response to Mr. Belmont's instructions that every effort be
made to track the ammunition on the possibility that some of it may be
traced into Oswald's hands.

The Springfield office has advised that they have obtained through contact
at the Western Cartridge Corporation, East Alton, Illinois, copies of that
Corporation's records relating to the manufacture of this ammunition.
Western manufactured four million rounds of this ammunition for the United
States Marine Corps during 1954.

Attached is a two-page copy of the records of Western relating to the
complete manufacture of this order of assassination was authorized under
Government contract of

[unreadable]

The interesting thing about this order is that it is for ammunition which
does not fit and cannot be fired in any of the USMC weapons.

This gives rise to the obvious speculation that it is a contract for
ammunition placed by the CIA with Western under USMC cover for concealment
purpose.

ACTION: This information is being furnished Division 5 and 6 for whatever
further investigative activity is deemed warranted.
[/size]
Mr. Tolson
Mr. Belmont
Mr. Mohr
Mr. DeLoach
Mr Rosen
Mrs. Sullivan
Mr. Thompson

Of course, the FBI botched this up and the Warren Commission was no
better, indicating the WCC was still making the ammo in 1964, which of
course is a crock.

There's much more to this, but I think I've replied to your questions.

John F.


"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message

news:5ee8a96c-c465-4a50...@c6g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

[Walt]

Wow!! That's really impressive..... A scribbled note about two empty
6.5mm ammo boxes being found...

Question....How difficult is it to scribble a note that appears to be
incriminating?

If you really believe this you're more naive than a six year old
kid.... There are NO empty ammo boxes in the evidence of this case,
and you can bet the farm that IF IF they had found any empty 6.5mm
Carcano ammo boxes among Oswald's stuff that would have beamed the
spotlight on them and broadcast that info to the world......

[Bud]

Why would the CIA care if some stooge they gave the ammo to had a
misfire?

> The WCC ammo was made to the SMI
> specifications. The market that they were planning to send it to did not
> care if it could be traced back to the US.

The CIA didn`t care that it could be easily traced back to them? Our
CIA?

[Bud]

On Apr 4, 7:25 am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:

Why would the CIA care if some stooge they gave the ammo to had a
misfire?

> The WCC ammo was made to the SMI
> specifications. The market that they were planning to send it to did not
> care if it could be traced back to the US.

[Walt]

The CIA didn't "lay a trail"...... Whatta a screwball idea!...... There
were CIA agents, and Cuban exiles who loathed JFK because they blamed him
for the BOP fiasco. That CIA operation caused the Cuban exiles a lot of
grief and they wanted revenge from "someone".....Anyone who they felt had
betrayed them and caused they comrades deaths. The CIA planners that JFK
had fired after BOP wanted him dead also.....so those CIA agents dumped
all of the blame on John Kennedy....and helped the Cuban exiles in their
plot to murder JFK.

They weren't the most careful planners and were sloppy and careless
(possibly because they had been told that there were powerful men in high
office who would cover their tracks) So the trail wasn't deliberately
laid as Oswald had done when he ordered the Mannlicher carcano to be used
to fire a bullet through Walker's window. The tracks left by the
conspirators were just the result of sloppy and careless planning. For
example.....They didn't know or care that the spent shells they left
beneath the window were different than all of the other 6.5mm Carcano ammo
in the world. They didn't plan on Officer Baker encountering Lee in the
lunchroom within seconds of the shooting. They forgot to put a empty clip
with the spent shells beneath the window. An empty clip should have been
there with the spent shells because when the last live cartridge was
injected into the chamber of the rifle the clip drops out...

If three shots had been fire fom a clip that had held four cartridges whe
the bolt was retracted to eject the third spent shell the bolt would have
been in the retracted positionthen when the bolt was pushed forward to
close the bolt it would have stripped the last live round from the clip
and the clip would have dropped out of the rifle.

It's just a few of the stupid little mistakes that reveal the truth about
the assassination of John Kennedy. They had planned on Lee Oswald being
shot during the assassination and that would have closed the case
immediately .......Lee tossed a monkey wrench into their machinery when he
didn't stay on the sixth floor at lunch time.

[Anthony Marsh]

[John Fiorentino]

First off, I'm not a conspiracy "folk" As to the rest of it, you would
need to speak to CIA and the FBI who issued the report on the ammo.

You can read it on another post of mine.

John F.


"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message

news:cdf2a50f-77d8-4c0d...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...

[Canuck]

As you might know, Walt, I interviewed Curtis back in 2001 at his
favourite restaurant as well as at his home (the next day) in
Fayetteville, Oregon. I also arranged for author Joan Mellen to be able
to phone both Curtis and his older brother (who served in the Army for
over 20 years; Curtis lasted only 14 months). Joan discusses Curtis in
her book on the JFK assassination. I discuss my contact with Curtis,
which began with a letter in the early 1990s, in my article "Creating A
Patsy", available at http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/creatingapatsy.htm. I
have been in contact with Curtis' older brother and his wife through
Facebook in recent years, and learned from them that Curtis became quite
paranoid (which I had also noticed as mentioned in my article), moving his
family to a remote cabin in Oregon for several years. Btw, I got to meet
Judge Burt Griffin at a Chicago conference in 1993, whom I had contacted
earlier about Craford, and he encouraged me to keep in touch with Curtis,
as he and the late Leon Hubert didn't feel Craford had been entirely
honest in his answers during a three-day interview that took place in
Wash. DC (which is over 200 pages long in the Warren volumes). Curtis
told me he had been escorted to the Portland airport for his flight to
Wash. DC by FBI agents. Curtis died two years ago after being on an
oxygen tank for some time. - Peter R. Whitmey

[Walt]

> Patsy", available athttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/creatingapatsy.htm.  I

> have been in contact with Curtis' older brother and his wife through
> Facebook in recent years, and learned from them that Curtis became quite
> paranoid (which I had also noticed as mentioned in my article), moving his
> family to a remote cabin in Oregon for several years.  Btw, I got to meet
> Judge Burt Griffin at a Chicago conference in 1993, whom I had contacted
> earlier about Craford, and he encouraged me to keep in touch with Curtis,
> as he and the late Leon Hubert didn't feel Craford had been entirely
> honest in his answers during a three-day interview that took place in
> Wash. DC (which is over 200 pages long in the Warren volumes).  Curtis
> told me he had been escorted to the Portland airport for his flight to
> Wash. DC by FBI agents.  Curtis died two years ago after being on an
> oxygen tank for some time.  - Peter R. Whitmey

Thanks Peter..... I'd like to know more about Curtis Crawford. He's
a prime suspect as far as I'm concerned.

Do you know why he was discharged from the Army after serving only 14
months?

[Anthony Marsh]

Falsely. They didn't realize who it was in the CIA who screwed up.

> They weren't the most careful planners and were sloppy and careless
> (possibly because they had been told that there were powerful men in high
> office who would cover their tracks) So the trail wasn't deliberately
> laid as Oswald had done when he ordered the Mannlicher carcano to be used
> to fire a bullet through Walker's window. The tracks left by the
> conspirators were just the result of sloppy and careless planning. For
> example.....They didn't know or care that the spent shells they left
> beneath the window were different than all of the other 6.5mm Carcano ammo
> in the world. They didn't plan on Officer Baker encountering Lee in the
> lunchroom within seconds of the shooting. They forgot to put a empty clip
> with the spent shells beneath the window. An empty clip should have been
> there with the spent shells because when the last live cartridge was
> injected into the chamber of the rifle the clip drops out...
>

Wrong. We can see the clip still in the Carcano when Day examined it.
You don't know anything about Carcanos.
Why do you think there is a release button for the clip?

The clip is held in place by the clip latch, and can be released by
pressing the clip latch located in the front of the triggerguard bow.

Carcano clips are loaded in the top of the rifle, and you eject them out
of the bottom of the rifle by pushing the button inside of the trigger
guard.

> If three shots had been fire fom a clip that had held four cartridges whe
> the bolt was retracted to eject the third spent shell the bolt would have
> been in the retracted positionthen when the bolt was pushed forward to
> close the bolt it would have stripped the last live round from the clip
> and the clip would have dropped out of the rifle.
>

Not for sure. Sometimes they stick.
But you are correct that there is something strange about finding the
three empties on the floor and a live round in the clip rather than in
the chamber. What if there was originally an empty cartridge in the
chamber and some klutz came along and opened up the bolt to see if the
gun was loaded?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/4/2013 11:11 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
> First off, I'm not a conspiracy "folk" As to the rest of it, you would
> need to speak to CIA and the FBI who issued the report on the ammo.
>
> You can read it on another post of mine.
>

What did the CIA say about the WCC ammo? Show us the document. I showed
the FBI document. You think the CIA admitted in a document that they
ordered the ammo? Then show it to me. How come you can't upload any
document?

> John F.
>
>
> "Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
> news:cdf2a50f-77d8-4c0d...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net>
> wrote:
>> The WCC 6'5 ammo was most likely ordered by the CIA, with the Army and/or
>> Marines used as a front.
>
> "mostly likely" meaning this is what you`ve decided to believe?
>
>> The ammo didn't fit any US weapons and was destined for some clandestine
>> operation that is still quite murky.
>
> Maybe it`s murky because the trees are being barked up. Has anyone
> looked to see if there was a reason given for the ammunition being
> made besides conspiracy folks doing their famous "figuring", which
> hasn`t proven itself to be so reliable in the past?
>

The WCC ammo is extremely reliable. No misfires, no duds.
You are not allowed to ask why the CIA ordered the ammo.

> Seems to me that if the CIA wanted Carcano ammo they would just
> purchase using from some front from the Italians. They wouldn`t use
> ammo stamped with an American brand, that wouldn`t even fool Walt.
> Might as well give them American rifles.
>

Seems it worked well enough to fool you.
No, they would not buy the SMI ammo because it was old and unreliable.
You don't want to supply your client terrorist group with ammo which
will blow up their rifles.
Lots of other countries including the US routinely made ammo for the
Carcano. But 4 million in a month?
I had to wait 2 years for my Norma ammo because they only do a
production run every 4 years.
Some of the other brands used bullets that are only .264" inch in
diameter which results in lousy accuracy.
The WCC bullets were custom ordered to be .268" which gives the greatest
accuracy.

[Anthony Marsh]

Bad for business. They did do it on purpose in a a couple of operations
to foil a terrorist group.
Remember when Reagan gave the terrorists the Hawk missiles? What most
people don't know is that the CIA made sure they got the most obsolete
model and rewrote the software to make sure it would not work properly.

>> The WCC ammo was made to the SMI
>> specifications. The market that they were planning to send it to did not
>> care if it could be traced back to the US.
>
> The CIA didn`t care that it could be easily traced back to them? Our
> CIA?
>

No, not for their intended client terrorist group.

[Anthony Marsh]

Of course there are a lot of things not in evidence. What do you think a
cover-up is for?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/4/2013 9:45 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
> I'm sorry you haven't done your homework. But I have posted about this
> many times over the years.
>
> Here's the FBI memo:
> FBI
> US Government Memo
> Date: 12/2/63
> To: Unreadable

To: Mr. Conrad

> From: ? H. Jovens


R. H. Jevons

> Subject : ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
>
> My memorandum of 11/22/63, set out additional information relating to
> the sale and distribution of the Western manufactured 6.5 mm
> Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition used in the assassination. That memorandum
> was written in response to Mr. Belmont's instructions that every effort
> be made to track the ammunition on the possibility that some of it may
> be traced into Oswald's hands.
>
> The Springfield office has advised that they have obtained through
> contact at the Western Cartridge Corporation, East Alton, Illinois,
> copies of that Corporation's records relating to the manufacture of this
> ammunition. Western manufactured four million rounds of this ammunition
> for the United States Marine Corps during 1954.
>
> Attached is a two-page copy of the records of Western relating to the
> complete manufacture of this order of assassination was authorized under
> Government contract of
>

DA-23-196-ORD-27.

> [unreadable]
>
> The interesting thing about this order is that it is for ammunition
> which does not fit and cannot be fired in any of the USMC weapons.
>
> This gives rise to the obvious speculation that it is a contract for
> ammunition placed by the CIA with Western under USMC cover for
> concealment purpose.
>

purposes.

> ACTION: This information is being furnished Division 5 and 6 for
> whatever further investigative activity is deemed warranted.
> [/size]
> Mr. Tolson
> Mr. Belmont
> Mr. Mohr
> Mr. DeLoach
> Mr Rosen
> Mrs. Sullivan
> Mr. Thompson
>
> Of course, the FBI botched this up and the Warren Commission was no
> better, indicating the WCC was still making the ammo in 1964, which of
> course is a crock.
>
> There's much more to this, but I think I've replied to your questions.
>
> John F.
>

Why is it that you never have the documents?
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/WCC-CIA.gif

[Bud]

On Apr 5, 6:23 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/4/2013 11:11 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
>
> > First off, I'm not a conspiracy "folk" As to the rest of it, you would
> > need to speak to CIA and the FBI who issued the report on the ammo.
>
> > You can read it on another post of mine.
>
> What did the CIA say about the WCC ammo? Show us the document. I showed
> the FBI document. You think the CIA admitted in a document that they
> ordered the ammo? Then show it to me. How come you can't upload any
> document?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > John F.
>

> > "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message

> >news:cdf2a50f-77d8-4c0d...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net>
> > wrote:
> >> The WCC 6'5 ammo was most likely ordered by the CIA, with the Army and/or
> >> Marines used as a front.
>
> >   "mostly likely" meaning this is what you`ve decided to believe?
>
> >> The ammo didn't fit any US weapons and was destined for some clandestine
> >> operation that is still quite murky.
>
> > Maybe it`s murky because the trees are being barked up. Has anyone
> > looked to see if there was a reason given for the ammunition being
> > made besides conspiracy folks doing their famous "figuring", which
> > hasn`t proven itself to be so reliable in the past?
>
> The WCC ammo is extremely reliable. No misfires, no duds.
> You are not allowed to ask why the CIA ordered the ammo.

Apparently there is something preventing you from showing they did.

> > Seems to me that if the CIA wanted Carcano ammo they would just
> > purchase using from some front from the Italians. They wouldn`t use
> > ammo stamped with an American brand, that wouldn`t even fool Walt.
> > Might as well give them American rifles.
>
> Seems it worked well enough to fool you.

It wouldn`t fool anyone, thats the point. The CIA likes to fool
people, so the CIA wouldn`t work it this way.

> No, they would not buy the SMI ammo because it was old and unreliable.
> You don't want to supply your client terrorist group with ammo which
> will blow up their rifles.

You are saying that the CIA couldn`t approach an Italian ammo
manufacturer through some intermediate and put in an order for 4
million rounds and specify that they be reliable? Do you base this on
anything in the real world?

> Lots of other countries including the US routinely made ammo for the
> Carcano. But 4 million in a month?

While you are tooled up you might as well make a large run. They
must have known there was going to be a lot of Carcanos hitting the
market eventually.

> I had to wait 2 years for my Norma ammo because they only do a
> production run every 4 years.
> Some of the other brands used bullets that are only .264" inch in
> diameter which results in lousy accuracy.
> The WCC bullets were custom ordered to be .268" which gives the greatest
> accuracy.

Oswald found them so.

[John Fiorentino]

The memo is from the FBI Marsh. It's already posted.

Did you really expect to see a CIA memo??

John F.


"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:515f13f9$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

[Walt]

Wrong.... you can't see the clip in the rifle when DAy examined it. The
Clip is visible in photographs hanging from the ejection port of the rifle
as Lt. Day carries it from the TSBD at about 2:30 pm.

> You don't know anything about Carcanos.

Wrong...I'm sure most readers will recognize who doesn't know anything
about Carcanos and a lot of other aspects of this case.

> Why do you think there is a release button for the clip?

The clip release button in front of the trigger is to release a clip
that has live cartridges in it as a way of unloading the rifle without
cycling the live cartridges through the receiver with the bolt.

However if you knew just a little about the Carcano you'd know that when
the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt
there is NOTHING holding the empty clip in the rifle...and it simply falls
by gravity out the bottom of the rifle. ( just as it is seen doing in the
photos of Day carrying it from the TSBD.) Day obviously was totally
unaware that the clip was about to fall out of the rifle. That clip was
released to fall free when Captain Fritz stripped the last round from the
clip when he opened the bolt. Up to that point the clip was held in the
rifle by the live round that was in the clip. Which brings us to the fine
point that I've been trying to get through some thick skulls for a long
time......

Here's how the rifle works....When the cartridges are cycled through
the Carcano ...

A live cartride is fired and then the bolt is lifted and drawn to the rear
which extracts the spent shell from the chamber. When the bolt is fully
retracted the spent shell which is attached by the extractor to the face
of the bolt hits the ejector lug and flips the spent shell from the rifle.
The bolt is now empty and ready to accept a fresh live round from the
clip. As the bolt is pushed forward the spring loaded elevator beneath the
cartridges in the clip push the uppermost cartridge in the clip up into
the face of the bolt and the forward motion pushes the live round into the
firing chamber and the bolt handle is pushed down into the latched
position....and the rifle is ready to fire again.

When there is only one live cartridge left in the clip .....and the bolt
is opened to eject the previous spent shell the elevator pushes the last
round in the clip up into bolt and when the bolt is pushed forward there
is NOTHING to hold the empty clip in the rifle, and it falls out of the
rifle..... This is what would have happened if that rifle had been fired
that day. The empty clip should have been on the floor beneath the window
with the spent shells. The FACT that the clip was still in the rifle
means that it was being held in the rifle by the live round that was STILL
IN THE CLIP. When Fritz opened the bolt he allowed the elevator to push
the live round up into the bolt where upon just a slight pul to the rear
caused the live round to contact the ejector lug and flip the live round
out of the rifle.

The point is: The rifle was planted with a live round IN THE CLIP....

If the rifle had been fired in the normal manner that day when the third
shot was fired and the spent shell ejected then the live round would have
been served up to the bolt and that would auotmatically have released the
clip to fall out .

There are many videos available in the net that show the clip falling
out of a carcano when the sixth round is chambered ....

[Walt]

On Apr 5, 5:23 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:

Tony Marsh wrote:....."Carcano clips are loaded in the top of the

rifle, and you eject them out of the bottom of the rifle by pushing
the button inside of the trigger guard."

Dear reader.... My refutation of Marshes statement isn't vital to the
investigation of the murder of JFK, but I'm so sick and tited of this
blowhard spewin his nonsense and telling others that they don't know
what they are talkin about that I can't resist posting an accurate
description of how the clip of cartridges are inserted and expelled
from the Carcano...

"Carcano clips are loaded in the top of the rifle," That's correct
Tony....You can load from one to six live cartridges IN A CLIP into a
Carcano from the top when the bolt is open.

Tony continued..."and you eject them out of the bottom of the rifle by

pushing the button inside of the trigger guard."

No Tony that's flat WRONG!.....The loaded clip CANNOT be removed from the
bottom ..... A live 6.5mm Carcano cartridge is THREE inches long (3")
The opening in the bottom of a Carcano magazine is only ONE and a half
inches (1 1/2 " ) long . HOW the hell do you propose to remove a 3 inch
long bullet from an opening that is only half the length of the bullet???
For that matter how do you think that you could get the cartridges past
the elevator that pushes the cartridges up from the bottom?????

If you knew anything about a Mannlicher Carcano you's know that the clip
of live cartridges can be removed by opening the bolt and then pressing
the clip release button which is in front of the trigger and then lift the
clip of cartridges FROM THE TOP of the rifle NOT the bottom. I'm so glad
that you exposed yourself as someone who doesn't know what he's talkin
about ....thank you.

[John Fiorentino]

What we're saying here Bud is that the FBI investigated the WCC ammo and
discovered it was ordered by the USMC.

Unfortunately it didn't fit any USMC weapons. So, the FBI theorized that
the CIA probably was behind it.


Not really complicated.

John F.



"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message

news:0b738271-5ae9-4e8b...@n4g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...

[John Fiorentino]

"Anthony likes to call everyone a liar"

John F.


"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:515f3698$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

[Bud]

On Apr 5, 10:48 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net>
wrote:

> What we're saying here Bud is that the FBI investigated the WCC ammo and
> discovered it was ordered by the USMC.
>
> Unfortunately it didn't fit any USMC weapons. So, the FBI theorized that
> the CIA probably was behind it.
>
> Not really complicated.
>
> John F.

I knew that. I also know the difference between speculating an
answer and establishing one.

[Bud]

This assumes that your idea that the CIA had the ammo made is true. You
have no answer to the issue I am bringing up, that the idea that the ammo
was made at the behest of the CIA has flaws.

>  If you knew
> anything about the CIA sponsered attacks against Cuba you'd know that the
> CIA people who were at the helm weren't the brighest bulbs on the tree.

This of course has nothing to do with the argument. The ammo was made in
the fifties, when there were no commies on the radar in Cuba. The place
that is mentioned is Greece, where the US was helping the government
against communist insurgents. It was US policy, and it wasn`t covert,
therefore it wasn`t CIA.

> E
> Howard Hunt and associates didn't worry about details like the ammo being
> stamped WCC because it couldn't be traced to the CIA by any foriegn nation
> because it had been purchased through a USMC contract.  I'm quite certain
> that if any question ever arose about how the Cuban exiles obtained the
> ammo the USMC would have been prepared to reveal that they had provided an
> ally nation with the ammo..... and they didn't know how the Cuban exiles
> had acquired it.

Your "figuring" is meaningless.

[Bud]

Silly. You refuse to look in the dictionary and find out what "show"
means. This is speculation.

> >>   You think
> >> the United States Marine Corp would place an order for four million rounds
> >> of 6.5mm Carcano ammo with the Italian government???
>
> >    Is this you admitting you can`t back up what you say with anything
> > tangible? What you imagine occurred is not really evidence of
> > anything, Walt.
>
> The FBI.

The Dairy Association.

> >    Why would the CIA use bullets stamped by an American manufacturer
> > for clandestine purposes?
>
> Stupidity?

Right. I`m sure they wrote "made in the USA" on their poison darts.
"Property of the CIA" on their spy cameras.

> How about the B-26 Bombers they used for the Bay of Pigs
> invasion which could be traced back to the last CIA project in the Congo.
> A couple of smart reporters instantly spotted the difference which told
> them that they came from the CIA. Adlai Stevenson almost resigned over
> that screw-up.
>
> Which is why JFK took military operations away from the CIA. Damn bunch of
> incompetents.
>
> >> You are sooooo
> >> naive......
>
> >    Not naive enough to think that your figuring has any value. That you
> > can follow such a trial shows why the CIA would not lay such a trail.
>
> SOP.
> You know nothing about the CIA.

I know it hasn`t been established that those bullets were
manufactured at the behest of the CIA? Do you accept this? Can you
contest this?

[Walt]

It will probably come as big surpised to Bud, to learn that the CIA is a
shady organization very much like the mafia, and it attempts to keep the
activities it's invoved in secret.

If they needed ammo for some operation like the BOP which was illegal by
many standards and violated long standing pacts and aggreements, they most
assuredly try to hide the fact that they were supplying an invasion force
with weapons and material. the contract for 4 million rounds of ammo was
probably worth close to a million dollars. That was a pretty big contract
back in the 1950's and it wouldn't have been an order that would have been
placed by Casey, Ingram & Atchison Sporting Goods Inc. But nobody would
question a contract like that if it was placed by the USMC.


>
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/5/2013 10:48 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
> What we're saying here Bud is that the FBI investigated the WCC ammo and
> discovered it was ordered by the USMC.
>
> Unfortunately it didn't fit any USMC weapons. So, the FBI theorized that
> the CIA probably was behind it.
>
>
> Not really complicated.
>

Too complicated for Bud. He had not read the FBI memo before. Because it
only appeared in conspiracy sources.

[Anthony Marsh]

I quoted verbatim from a gun Web site. If you knew how to search on
Google you could find the source.

> "Carcano clips are loaded in the top of the rifle," That's correct
> Tony....You can load from one to six live cartridges IN A CLIP into a
> Carcano from the top when the bolt is open.
>
> Tony continued..."and you eject them out of the bottom of the rifle by
> pushing the button inside of the trigger guard."
>
> No Tony that's flat WRONG!.....The loaded clip CANNOT be removed from the

Did I say you eject a loaded clip? No.

> bottom ..... A live 6.5mm Carcano cartridge is THREE inches long (3")
> The opening in the bottom of a Carcano magazine is only ONE and a half
> inches (1 1/2 " ) long . HOW the hell do you propose to remove a 3 inch
> long bullet from an opening that is only half the length of the bullet???
> For that matter how do you think that you could get the cartridges past
> the elevator that pushes the cartridges up from the bottom?????
>

The article was about how to eject an empty clip when it gets stuck.

> If you knew anything about a Mannlicher Carcano you's know that the clip
> of live cartridges can be removed by opening the bolt and then pressing
> the clip release button which is in front of the trigger and then lift the
> clip of cartridges FROM THE TOP of the rifle NOT the bottom. I'm so glad
> that you exposed yourself as someone who doesn't know what he's talkin
> about ....thank you.

Still clueless after all these years.

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, we can. And I thought you said the clip was nowhere to be found.
You are not being consistent in your wacky theories.

>
>> You don't know anything about Carcanos.
>
> Wrong...I'm sure most readers will recognize who doesn't know anything
> about Carcanos and a lot of other aspects of this case.
>
>> Why do you think there is a release button for the clip?
>
> The clip release button in front of the trigger is to release a clip
> that has live cartridges in it as a way of unloading the rifle without
> cycling the live cartridges through the receiver with the bolt.
>

And it also helps to release a stuck empty clip.
What is the soldier supposed to do when the empty clip fails to fall out
after the last shot? Thrown away his rifle or die next to it?

> However if you knew just a little about the Carcano you'd know that when
> the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt
> there is NOTHING holding the empty clip in the rifle...and it simply falls
> by gravity out the bottom of the rifle. ( just as it is seen doing in the

It doesn't always go as planned. Because you've never been in the real
world you think that everything works perfectly as designed.

> photos of Day carrying it from the TSBD.) Day obviously was totally
> unaware that the clip was about to fall out of the rifle. That clip was
> released to fall free when Captain Fritz stripped the last round from the
> clip when he opened the bolt. Up to that point the clip was held in the
> rifle by the live round that was in the clip. Which brings us to the fine
> point that I've been trying to get through some thick skulls for a long
> time......
>

That's strange. Then how did the clip get there if you said the rifle
did not have a clip or the clip had already fallen out? No one found a
clip on the floor. Alyea did not film an empty clip on the floor. If the
clip had fallen out after the last shot it should be right there on the
floor with the empty shells. It's not like the M-1 clip which get flung
several feet away. How do you backpedal now?

Then how does the clip start falling out when Day examines it and
carries it? With a live round in the clip?

> If the rifle had been fired in the normal manner that day when the third
> shot was fired and the spent shell ejected then the live round would have
> been served up to the bolt and that would auotmatically have released the
> clip to fall out .
>

That does not always happen as planned.

> There are many videos available in the net that show the clip falling
> out of a carcano when the sixth round is chambered ....
>

And there are many Carcano owners and experts who say that the clip does
not always fall out.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/5/2013 9:25 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
> The memo is from the FBI Marsh. It's already posted.
>

I was the the person who scanned in the FBI memo and posted it long
before you ever saw it.

> Did you really expect to see a CIA memo??
>

I thought you were going to show us a CIA memo.

[John Fiorentino]

Bud:

Sorry, I have no idea what you are saying.

John F.


"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message

news:d9d7410a-a483-40f7...@f5g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...

[Anthony Marsh]

But they do so all the time. The wrong B-26 bombers fooled all but 2 of
the reporters.

>> No, they would not buy the SMI ammo because it was old and unreliable.
>> You don't want to supply your client terrorist group with ammo which
>> will blow up their rifles.
>
> You are saying that the CIA couldn`t approach an Italian ammo
> manufacturer through some intermediate and put in an order for 4

That is exactly what I am saying. Because the SMI ammo is unreliable and
the Italians no longer made it in such quantities.

> million rounds and specify that they be reliable? Do you base this on
> anything in the real world?
>

Knowing the CIA and knowing the SMI ammo.

>> Lots of other countries including the US routinely made ammo for the
>> Carcano. But 4 million in a month?
>
> While you are tooled up you might as well make a large run. They
> must have known there was going to be a lot of Carcanos hitting the
> market eventually.
>

You still don't get it. The CIA was not buying Carcano ammo to sell to
gun shops. It was only for a specific operation to support a client
terrorist organization.

>> I had to wait 2 years for my Norma ammo because they only do a
>> production run every 4 years.
>> Some of the other brands used bullets that are only .264" inch in
>> diameter which results in lousy accuracy.
>> The WCC bullets were custom ordered to be .268" which gives the greatest
>> accuracy.
>
> Oswald found them so.
>

So you can't explain why Oswald missed General Walker? Even John McAdams
could not miss at 120 feet.

[Walt]

On Apr 5, 5:23 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/4/2013 11:11 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
>
> > First off, I'm not a conspiracy "folk" As to the rest of it, you would
> > need to speak to CIA and the FBI who issued the report on the ammo.
>
> > You can read it on another post of mine.
>
> What did the CIA say about the WCC ammo? Show us the document. I showed
> the FBI document. You think the CIA admitted in a document that they
> ordered the ammo? Then show it to me. How come you can't upload any
> document?
>
>
>
>
>
> > John F.
>

> > "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message

>Did you say that firing the .264" diameter bullets resulted in "lousy
> accuracy".
>
> Yes, I know the Mannlicher Carcano was designed to fire a 162 grain bullet
> with the diameter of .268"......But does the use of the slightly smaller
> diameter bullet really result in "lousy accuracy?"
>
>

I'm merely curious .....because the liars for LBJ's SBRC wanted us to
believe that the ammo was far superior to the Italian ammo.... And they
wanted us to believe that WCC ammo was used with deadly accuracy.

[Anthony Marsh]

No Carcanos were used by the Cuban exiles. And the contract for the ammo
was in 1954. You think the CIA was planning the Bay of Pigs invasion in
1954?
The FBI questioned why the Marines needed the WCC ammo when the didn't
have any weapon that could be used.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/6/2013 6:09 PM, Walt wrote:

> On Apr 5, 9:48 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net> wrote:
>> What we're saying here Bud is that the FBI investigated the WCC ammo and
>> discovered it was ordered by the USMC.
>>
>> Unfortunately it didn't fit any USMC weapons. So, the FBI theorized that
>> the CIA probably was behind it.
>>
>> Not really complicated.
>>
>> John F.
>>

> Did you say that firing the .264" diameter bullets resulted in "lousy
> accuracy".
>
> Yes, I know the Mannlicher Carcano was designed to fire a 162 grain bullet
> with the diameter of .268"......But does the use of the slightly smaller
> diameter bullet really result in "lousy accuracy?"
>

Yes. Have you ever heard of Dave Emary? He is the top expert on
Carcanos. Here's what he said about bullet diameter:

SHOOTING:



6.5 x 52 mm



The Carcano rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy. With the
exception of a military issue type load in the short carbines they are
very pleasant to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Because of the above
mentioned sight picture for the Carcano, front sight in the bottom of
the rear sight notch, it is very important to have a consistent
stock-cheek weld for consistent accuracy. It is often very helpful to
use a carbide lamp or a sight black product to blacken the sights, which
improves contrast and sight picture.

With .264� bullets the best results I have ever been able to obtain are
with the Hornady 160 gr RN. Most rifles will shoot groups with this
bullet in the 3� - 5� range at 100 yards for 5 shots. I will
occasionally get a group under 3�.

With the Hornady .2675� bullet I have been able to consistently shoot my
M41 under 2� at 100 yards with numerous groups around 1.5�. I have with
my accuracy marked M38 Short Rifle shot groups under 1� at 100 yards
with the norm being 1.5� � 2.0�. With the Cavalry and T.S. model rifles
I can typically shoot groups in the 2.0� � 3.0� range. The accuracy
shooting with the carbines is somewhat limited by the very short sight
radius.

I have never had a chambering problem with the .2675� bullets. Any
problems have been traced back to the chamber dimensions and size die as
I mentioned above.

>
> I'm merely curious .....because the liars for LBJ's SBRC wanted us to

> believe that the ammo was far superior to the Italian ammo.... And that
> WCC ammo was used with deadly accuracy.

[Anthony Marsh]

I SHOWED you the damn FBI document. That's how it works on this Internet
thingy.

>>>> You think
>>>> the United States Marine Corp would place an order for four million rounds
>>>> of 6.5mm Carcano ammo with the Italian government???
>>
>>> Is this you admitting you can`t back up what you say with anything
>>> tangible? What you imagine occurred is not really evidence of
>>> anything, Walt.
>>
>> The FBI.
>
> The Dairy Association.
>
>>> Why would the CIA use bullets stamped by an American manufacturer
>>> for clandestine purposes?
>>
>> Stupidity?
>
> Right. I`m sure they wrote "made in the USA" on their poison darts.
> "Property of the CIA" on their spy cameras.
>

You still don't know anything about the CIA.

>> How about the B-26 Bombers they used for the Bay of Pigs
>> invasion which could be traced back to the last CIA project in the Congo.
>> A couple of smart reporters instantly spotted the difference which told
>> them that they came from the CIA. Adlai Stevenson almost resigned over
>> that screw-up.
>>
>> Which is why JFK took military operations away from the CIA. Damn bunch of
>> incompetents.
>>
>>>> You are sooooo
>>>> naive......
>>
>>> Not naive enough to think that your figuring has any value. That you
>>> can follow such a trial shows why the CIA would not lay such a trail.
>>
>> SOP.
>> You know nothing about the CIA.
>
> I know it hasn`t been established that those bullets were
> manufactured at the behest of the CIA? Do you accept this? Can you
> contest this?
>

I was the first to point it out. You come late to the dance.

[Anthony Marsh]

That is one possibility. There are others from that region.
If you can't PROVE with documents that it was intended for GREECE then
it was covert.
Why do always protect the CIA at all costs?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/6/2013 6:06 PM, Bud wrote:
> On Apr 5, 10:48 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net>
> wrote:
>> What we're saying here Bud is that the FBI investigated the WCC ammo and
>> discovered it was ordered by the USMC.
>>
>> Unfortunately it didn't fit any USMC weapons. So, the FBI theorized that
>> the CIA probably was behind it.
>>
>> Not really complicated.
>>
>> John F.
>
> I knew that. I also know the difference between speculating an
> answer and establishing one.
>

If it was the CIA how do you expect us to prove it?

[Walt]

I said nothing of the kind...... I said the clip isn't visible in any of
the photos which show Lt Day dusting the rifle for prints on the sixth
floor of the TSBD.....BUT it is visible in the photos of Day carrying the
rifle as he leaves the TSBD ....Which means it was inside the magazine and
Day was unaware that it was there but apparently he had turned the rifle
so that the boton was down at some point and the clip had started to slide
out of the rifle ...WHICH INDICATES THAT IT WAS NOT STUCK.... If it
started to slide out after Fritz released it by removing the live round
from it then it was never stuck or jammed in the magazine.

>
>
>
> >> You don't know anything about Carcanos.
>
> > Wrong...I'm sure most readers will recognize who doesn't know anything
> > about Carcanos and a lot of other aspects of this case.
>
> >> Why do you think there is a release button for the clip?
>
> > The clip release button in front of the trigger is to release a clip
> > that has live cartridges in it as a way of unloading the rifle without
> > cycling the live cartridges through the receiver with the bolt.
>
> And it also helps to release a stuck empty clip.

Utter nonsense!..... The release button is to release a clip with
cartridges in it . It's obvious that you don't understand that the live
cartridges hold the clip in the rifle by the spring action of the
cartridge follower ( elevator) but after the live cartridges are gone and
the clip is empty there is NOTHING to hold the clip in the
magazine,,,,,and the clip release button has no function for an empty

clip.


> What is the soldier supposed to do when the empty clip fails to fall out
> after the last shot? Thrown away his rifle or die next to it?

If the soldier was just a bit smarter than you he'd simply insert a fresh
clip of six cartridges and in doing that he'd push the old empty clip
right out the bottom of the rifle. He'd then close the bolt and inject a
live round into the firing chamber in the process.

>
> > However if you knew just a little about the Carcano you'd know that when
> > the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt
> > there is NOTHING holding the empty clip in the rifle...and it simply falls
> > by gravity out the bottom of the rifle. ( just as it is seen doing in the
>
> It doesn't always go as planned. Because you've never been in the real
> world you think that everything works perfectly as designed.

If on the rare occasion a clip doesn't fall free from the rifle, it
will be pushed out by the act of inserting a fresh clip of live
cartridges.

>
> > photos of Day carrying it from the TSBD.) Day obviously was totally
> > unaware that the clip was about to fall out of the rifle.  That clip was
> > released to fall free when Captain Fritz stripped the last round from the
> > clip when he opened the bolt. Up to that point the clip was held in the
> > rifle by the live round that was in the clip.  Which brings us to the fine
> > point that I've been trying to get through some thick skulls for a long
> > time......
>
> That's strange. Then how did the clip get there if you said the rifle
> did not have a clip or the clip had already fallen out?

Focus .... I know this is very difficult for you but try to LISTEN for
a change....

If the rifle had been fired from that window the clip would have been
on the floor with the spent shells.

BUT ...The clip was NOT on the floor it was in the rifle and it was

held in the rifle by the live round that was in the clip.

When Fritz opened the bolt he released the live round that was holding
the clip in the rifle but the clip didn't fall out because they had
the rifle sidewise so gravity could not take effect on the clip and
pull it out of the bottom of the rifle.
Apparently Lt Day turned the bottom side down enough to allow the clip
to gradually start sliding out of the rifle.

The point is ..... IF IF IF that rifle had ben fired that day when the
bolt was retracted after the third shot to eject the spent shell when
the bolt was pushed forward the live round would have been stripped
from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor. The FACT
that the clip was being held in the rifle by the live round means that
the rifle was planted...The clip with the single live round in it was
inserted into the rifle and the live was held down so it could not be
servered up to the bolt and then the bolt was closed .....which left
the live round in the clip and NOT in the firing chamber.


It's so very obvious to me that the rifle and shells were planted that
I can't imagine anybody who knows how a Carcano operates failing to
see the obvious. I've posted this information many many times but
people who claim they know how a Carcano works quite obviously DO NOT
know how the gun operates.

> Then how does the clip start falling out when ...
>
> read more »

[Bud]

On Apr 6, 9:31 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net> wrote:
> Bud:
>
> Sorry, I have no idea what you are saying.

I get that a lot.

[Bud]

You cited a document that didn`t SHOW that the CIA had anything to
do with procuring those bullets. Thats how it works whenever you cite
something that you claim supports your position.

> >>>>    You think
> >>>> the United States Marine Corp would place an order for four million rounds
> >>>> of 6.5mm Carcano ammo with the Italian government???
>
> >>>     Is this you admitting you can`t back up what you say with anything
> >>> tangible? What you imagine occurred is not really evidence of
> >>> anything, Walt.
>
> >> The FBI.
>
> >    The Dairy Association.
>
> >>>     Why would the CIA use bullets stamped by an American manufacturer
> >>> for clandestine purposes?
>
> >> Stupidity?
>
> >    Right. I`m sure they wrote "made in the USA" on their poison darts.
> > "Property of the CIA" on their spy cameras.
>
> You still don't know anything about the CIA.

I know they usually run clandestine operations that might be
compromised by the use of American stamped bullets.

> >> How about the B-26 Bombers they used for the Bay of Pigs
> >> invasion which could be traced back to the last CIA project in the Congo.
> >> A couple of smart reporters instantly spotted the difference which told
> >> them that they came from the CIA. Adlai Stevenson almost resigned over
> >> that screw-up.
>
> >> Which is why JFK took military operations away from the CIA. Damn bunch of
> >> incompetents.
>
> >>>> You are sooooo
> >>>> naive......
>
> >>>     Not naive enough to think that your figuring has any value. That you
> >>> can follow such a trial shows why the CIA would not lay such a trail.
>
> >> SOP.
> >> You know nothing about the CIA.
>
> >    I know it hasn`t been established that those bullets were
> > manufactured at the behest of the CIA? Do you accept this? Can you
> > contest this?
>
> I was the first to point it out.

Point what out? Are you accepting or contesting?

>You come late to the dance.

But the slow rhythm of the horse being beaten continues.

[Bud]

On Apr 6, 11:38 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:

<snicker> Is that how you think it works? No wonder you get to the
places you do.

> Why do always protect the CIA at all costs?

They have a thousand ways to kill a man Tony, I`m trying to protect
you.

[Bud]

On Apr 6, 11:39 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/6/2013 6:06 PM, Bud wrote:
>
> > On Apr 5, 10:48 pm, "John Fiorentino" <jefiorent...@optimum.net>
> > wrote:
> >> What we're saying here Bud is that the FBI investigated the WCC ammo and
> >> discovered it was ordered by the USMC.
>
> >> Unfortunately it didn't fit any USMC weapons. So, the FBI theorized that
> >> the CIA probably was behind it.
>
> >> Not really complicated.
>
> >> John F.
>
> >    I knew that. I also know the difference between speculating an
> > answer and establishing one.
>
> If it was the CIA how do you expect us to prove it?

A good place to start might be with the Marine Corps paperwork.
Isn`t it possible that you might find someone on the Marines side of
it who could give an explanation for why the bullets were ordered?
Just saying the CIA was behind it is not as good as showing they were.