For Those Who Care

22 views
Skip to first unread message

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 4:34:38 PM10/10/07
to

Thomas H. Purvis says:

One last time for those who actually care!

1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.

2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found
on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO
was the shooter.

4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.

5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.
It is in fact the second shot fired.

6. LHO was a relatively good shooter, as is clearly demonstrated by
his USMC Rangefire Record.

7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards
(slope distance) from the window to the target.

8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in
those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during "Rapid Fire"
shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.

9. The third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, impacted
the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location
of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.

10. The WC is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the
assassination in which the WC presented that all of the shots were
fired within an approximate 5.6 to 5.9 second time frame window
(first shot to Z313 impact point), and that due to this "rushed"
shooting scenario, one of the shots completely missed everything and
everyone.

11. There was no "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm

12. With the available evidence, which included a first generation
copy of the Z-film, as well as availability of the witness
testimonies, the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily resolved
the shooting sequence of the shots fired.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm

13. There is absolutely nothing which is complicated in regards to the
shooting sequence which occurred in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.
What is complicated is the extent to which certain members of the WC
went to in order to make an entire shot "disappear", and thereafter
blame the wounds which the bullet created on CE399/aka the "Magic
Bullet".

14. CE399 is not "Magic".

15. In event that one desires to see the TRUE "Magic Bullet", then
might I recommend that they search for the one which disappeared.

There is no Magic!

however:

"Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear"

Tom


mark foster

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 12:22:40 AM10/11/07
to

There may be no magic, but there is Truth. Yes, three shots were
fired from the sixth floor by Oswald....but the first shot was at
approximately Z160. It missed the limousine completely.

Z313 was the LAST shot in the sequence. Sorry, but facts is facts.

John Canal

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 12:23:47 AM10/11/07
to
In article <1192032703.7...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
says...

>
>
>
>Thomas H. Purvis says:
>
>One last time for those who actually care!
>
>1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.
>
>2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found
>on the sixth floor of the TSDB.
>
>3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO
>was the shooter.
>
>4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.
>
>5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.
>It is in fact the second shot fired.
>
>6. LHO was a relatively good shooter, as is clearly demonstrated by
>his USMC Rangefire Record.
>
>7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards
>(slope distance) from the window to the target.
>
>8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in
>those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during "Rapid Fire"
>shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.
>
>9. The third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, impacted
>the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location
>of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.

Are you positing that one bullet hit him near the EOP and another in the
cowlick? If so, there's no solid evidence for a cowlick entry. Indeed, if
a shot did hit him, there where is the cluster or short trail of bone
fragments that would have (because of their light weight) stayed close to
that high entry? Note that those bone fragments would have been from the
beveled out inner table of the skull around that entry.

Also the autopsy docs reported no inshoot type damage to that part of the
brain.

And where is all the lead for a shot entering in the cowlick? Would the
answer be a dog-ate-my-homework type of answer, e.g. the lead deflected
into DP somewhere, without causing any further noticable damage or injury?

Are you saying (like Marsh says) that HB&F were so incompetent they missed
seeing another entry and exit...or are you saying they were in on a
cover-up? If the later, there were a lot of individuals who witnesed the
autopsy, e.g. Siebert & O'Neill....were they in on the cover-up as well?

And he slumped into Jackie's arms after the 312-313 shot, making anther
shot to the head that much more difficult, especially since you say that
last shot was even further away.

John Canal

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 12:27:24 AM10/11/07
to
Brokedad wrote:
>
> Thomas H. Purvis says:
>
> One last time for those who actually care!
>
> 1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.
>
> 2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found
> on the sixth floor of the TSDB.
>
> 3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO
> was the shooter.
>
> 4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.
>
> 5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.
> It is in fact the second shot fired.
>

You try to pretend to be a WC defender and then you invent a wacky
theory like that.

> 6. LHO was a relatively good shooter, as is clearly demonstrated by
> his USMC Rangefire Record.
>
> 7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards
> (slope distance) from the window to the target.
>
> 8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in
> those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during "Rapid Fire"
> shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.
>

Apples and oranges, comparing a semi-automatic to a bolt action rifle.

> 9. The third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, impacted
> the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location
> of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.
>

Nonsense.

> 10. The WC is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the
> assassination in which the WC presented that all of the shots were
> fired within an approximate 5.6 to 5.9 second time frame window
> (first shot to Z313 impact point), and that due to this "rushed"
> shooting scenario, one of the shots completely missed everything and
> everyone.
>

That was only one possible scenario of three.

> 11. There was no "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!
>

Then tell us what each shot hit when. You keep ducking that question
because you know any answer will show how wacky your theory is.

burgundy

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 12:59:22 AM10/11/07
to

Re: # 11 : What shot hit the curb that struck James Tague?


claviger

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 1:12:14 AM10/11/07
to
Tom,

The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:

1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
exclaim "My God! I've been hit!" The SS agents in the presidential
limousine testified they plainly heard JFK's familiar voice blurt out
these words.

2) The second shot struck the President in the upper back and exited his
throat, causing such severe damage he was no longer able to speak.

3) The third shot struck the President in the upper part at the back of
his skull and the shock wave of the fragmenting bullet blew out the top of
his head. A fragmenting bullet from a rifle would act as a virtual shotgun
blast exiting the skull.

This sequence explains why Governor Connelly always insisted he was hit by
a different bullet than the first one to strike the President. This
perception would be correct since the President was the only passenger hit
by fragments from the ricochet off the curb. The second shot pierced both
the President and Governor Connelly. A ballistics laboratory in Australia
proved beyond any reasonable doubt the ammunition used in Oswlad's rifle
was capable of penetrating the torso of both JFK and JBC.

Claviger

Martin Shackelford

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 10:15:32 PM10/11/07
to
Some witnesses report that the third shot occurred AFTER the head shot.

Martin

"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1192076171....@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:12:54 PM10/11/07
to
claviger wrote:
> Tom,
>
> The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
> incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:
>
> 1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
> the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
> exclaim "My God! I've been hit!" The SS agents in the presidential
> limousine testified they plainly heard JFK's familiar voice blurt out
> these words.
>

Nonsense. JFK said nothing. He had a perforated trachea.
Cite and quote the plural SS agents who testified that they heard him
say those words. Plural.

> 2) The second shot struck the President in the upper back and exited his
> throat, causing such severe damage he was no longer able to speak.
>
> 3) The third shot struck the President in the upper part at the back of
> his skull and the shock wave of the fragmenting bullet blew out the top of
> his head. A fragmenting bullet from a rifle would act as a virtual shotgun
> blast exiting the skull.
>
> This sequence explains why Governor Connelly always insisted he was hit by
> a different bullet than the first one to strike the President. This
> perception would be correct since the President was the only passenger hit
> by fragments from the ricochet off the curb. The second shot pierced both
> the President and Governor Connelly. A ballistics laboratory in Australia
> proved beyond any reasonable doubt the ammunition used in Oswlad's rifle
> was capable of penetrating the torso of both JFK and JBC.
>

No, please try to follow. Connally not only said that he was hit by the
second shot, he also said that he was not hit by the same bullet which
hit the President. He always rejected the SBT.

> Claviger

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:18:56 PM10/11/07
to

"There may be no magic, but there is Truth. Yes, three shots were fired

from the sixth floor by Oswald....but the first shot was at approximately
Z160. It missed the limousine completely"


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm

Perhaps one should speak with the individual who actually witnessed the
first shot strike JFK in the upper back, exactly where the wound was found
when the autopsy of JFK was full into progress, and which no one was aware
of until this time.

Aftewards, perhaps one should check into the witness testiimony of all of
those who claimed that JFK was observed reacting to being hit by the first
shot.

And, one just may want to dig into the factual evidence to determine
exactly how it was that Time/Life, with the original Zapruder film in
their possession, on 11/26/63, determined that the first shot was fired
just as JFK began to go behind the Stemmons Road Sign.

And, the US Secret Service, on 12/2, 3/ & 4th, during their survey work
and re-enactment, determined that JFK was hit just as he went behind this
road sign, which location was also confirmed by the FBI on 2/7/64 during
their survey work and assassination re-enactment


"Z313 was the LAST shot in the sequence. Sorry, but facts is facts"

SS Agent Glenn Bennet says "second shot"!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm

Emmet Hudson says "second shot"!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

Charles Brehm says "second shot"!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brehm.htm

along with a whole lot of others.

Were you there????

If not, and since the US Secret Service as well as the FBI clearly
determined that Z313 was the second shot impact location, excuse me, but I
will stick with their judgement.

Especially since they were in possession of a first generation copy of the
Z-film as well as having access to the witness statements.

Not to mention that Emmet Hudson, James Altgens, Malcom Summers, and
others, have clearly stated the approximate location of the Presidential
Limo at the time of the third/last/final shot.

And of course, one can add into that scenario the fact that James Altgens
clearly testified that it was the LAST shot fired that he observed strike
the head of JFK, as well as the fact that Nellie Connally clearly wrote in
her diary that JBC was down with his head fully in her lap when the last
shot blew brain tissue/etc; all over them.

So! Unless you were there, as a definitive witness, have your own film
which demonstrates otherwise, then I will have to go with the witness
testimonies which clearly demonstrate that Z313 was the SECOND SHOT
impact, and that the third/last/final shot occurred, just as he stated it
did, down directly in front of James Altgens, and as Altgens also stated,
it struck JFK in the head.

Although I would not have expected you to be in possession of the US
Secret Service & FBI Survey Plats and survey notes, I would have expected
anyone who claimed knowledge of the assassination to have at least read
the witness testimonies of the WC, as well as other locations, and
thereafter made some effort to correlate this information.


curtjester1

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:32:58 PM10/11/07
to

There were two curb shots, and a manhole cover shot. The first curb
shot was to the motorcyclists right just after the TSBD on the north
side of Elm. The other was on the south side of Elm down by the TU
that hit Tague. The manhole cover was on the south side of Elm, and
it deflected off that and went into the grass where there was a
furrow, and picked up by the FBI.

If you have a copy of Six Seconds in Dallas you can see in zapruder
frame 230 that JBC is perfectly still and stoic, where JFK has emerged
from behind the sign with his hands already by his neck, which one
would have to know that he was hit much earlier than when he was
coming from out of the sign at zapruder frame 225. There is also the
Hughes film and Weaver photo that show a man seconds before the
shooting standing in the window next to the so-called SN, so you more
than one at the sixth floor.

There have been accousical studies of echos and spike marks of such
that have had 4, 5, and 6 shots purported.

If you have 313 as a last hit, then obviously you have two shooters if
you feel that one followed. Many do feel there was a simultaneous hit
from the back and front, and if so would account for the tremendous
controvery over the damaged President's head.

CJ


Brokedad

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:33:40 PM10/11/07
to
On Oct 10, 11:23?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <1192032703.773064.212...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
> John Canal- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


294 feet (98 yards) slope distance from the sixth floor window to that
point on Elm St. at which JFK was located, to be exact!

As determined by the US Secret Service during their December 2, 3, &
4th survey work and re-enactment, and as verified by the FBI during
their February 7, 1964 survey work and re-enactment.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holland.htm

Mr. HOLLAND - And about that time he went over like that [indicating],
and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could
tell.
Mr. STERN - Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward
and raised your right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND - Pulled forward and hand just stood like that
momentarily.
Mr. STERN - With his right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND - His right hand; and that was the first report that I
heard.
Mr. STERN - What did it sound like?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud,

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z227.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't it nice to have pictures to put to the words of those who could
not have seen what the film also demonstrates?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. HOLLAND - and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that
[indicating] with his hand out, and another report.

Mr. STERN - With his right hand out?
Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right.
Mr. STERN - To his right?

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0042a.htm

Z312

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still sounds like relatively accurate testimony to me!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out and he slumped down in his
seat,

Now, I mean, that was apparently that---she turned back around, and by
the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in---I'd
say along in here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - How do you know that? Did you observe that?
Mr. HOLLAND - I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the
floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second---
Mr. STERN - Did you hear a third report?
Mr. HOLLAND - I heard a third report and I counted four shots

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

Mr. HUDSON - I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet
hit him - the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that
correct?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a
little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.
Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?
Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg


Mr. HUDSON - Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car
was when he was hit - at the time I was looking right at him when the
shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.
Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?
Mr. HUDSON - Three.
Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the
head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question
in your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here
another shot?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty
close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere
right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the
head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs.
Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the
neck after he had been hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes sir; I do
Mr. LIEBELER - He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could
have been hit?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you watch the President after he got hit in the
head like that?
Mr. HUDSON - Well as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you
know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too.
Mr. LIEBELER - So you only saw the President hit once; is that right,
sir?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you aren't able to say from your own observation
when he was hit in the neck?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - If he was hit in the neck.


Brokedad

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:45:48 PM10/11/07
to
> > Tom- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


"Nonsense."


http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0464b.htm

Z313:-------------------------Stationing 4+65.3


http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0449a.htm

Last shot impact point:------------------Stationing 4+96* (500 minum 4
= 4+96) *actual survey stationing of the point which was surveyed in
and thereafter placed onto the survey plats was survey stationing
4+95.

Now, the question remains?----Can you do simple math Anthony????

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg

JFK's location at survey stationing 4+95/4+96.
One just may want to take note of the "sprocket hole" film problem,
and in event that they have nothing better to do, compare it with
those frames in/around the Z210 sequence.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which
would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--
about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side
that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the
President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good
closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that
it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area,
and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as
far as I got with my camera.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg

Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third
shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third
shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot
did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that
was made after that.

Mr. ALTGENS - There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of
his head in my direction from where I was standing,


Brokedad

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:46:08 PM10/11/07
to
> Re: # 11 : What shot hit the curb that struck James Tague?- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11215&pid=122167&st=0&


Think:

1. Lead Fragment!
2. Limited velocity!
3. Minor scratch on face.
4. Unknown origin of extremely minor scratch on face, as to caused by
either a piece of concrete curb or small fragment of lead.
5. Tague clearly identified the "sting" as being associated with the
SECOND SHOT/aka the headshot at Z313 in which the bullet severely
fragmented.
6. Completely unknown as to whether the found curb impact mark is or
is not directly related to the slight "scratch" which Tague received,
or whether the scratch was created by a separate fragment.

7. First shot observed striking JFK
8. Second shot observed strilking JFK
9. Third/last/final shot observed striking JFK.

(difficulty rating of ZERO to figure this one out)!


And lastly, since there was only one bullet to actually fragment, and
a considerable portion of it's factory weight is completely
unaccounted for, then it truly is not that difficult for one to add 1
+ 1 together to determine that Tague was struck by either one of these
small fragments of lead which had a limited velocity, or else he was
struck by a small piece of concrete which was chipped off from the
concrete curb as a result of the impact of a lead fragment to the
curb.

"Bullets" do not cause a small scratch and minor "sting" to the face.

Copper jacketed bullet impacts to concrete curbs do not leave ONLY
lead residue.

Full velocity bullet impacts to curbs, do considerably more damage
than some small "chip" to the curb.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tague.htm


And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall something sting me on the
face while I was standing down there."

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that is where you were standing when you apparently
got hit with this flying, whatever it was?
Mr. TAGUE. Right.

Mr. TAGUE. This man was relating his story of how he was standing
right there as he witnessed the facts. He said it looked like the
President's head exploded. And I said I felt something hit me.

(note: certainly sounds like Z313 to me)

Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make
any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the
second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no
connection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that
mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't
say definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get
hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third
shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on
the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. LIEBELER. So you, being in a place where there was no echo, you
were able to recognize how many shots there were quite clearly?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you heard three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. That is right.


Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted
for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were
accounted for.
Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car?
Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes.


(one just may want to check this out as it was PRIOR to someone's
determination that perhaps they should not tell us the facts) and
thereafter started this highly publicized rumor:

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there was a story in the paper more recently that
indicated that one of them might have missed.

Lastly, it is quite unfortunate that you fell for and believed "THE
SHOT THAT MISSED", aka the Warren Commission.

Personally, I was never so naive to believe that ANYONE who possessed
the ability to hit JFK at least two out of three shots, could not at
least hit somewhere within the entire realm of the Presidential Limo
on a third shot. Even if that shot did for some reason miss JFK.

And just in event that it is of any consequence, I too have suffered a
"lead fragment" embedded into my chest as a result of a richochet
fragment in which the bullet struck gravel rocks, fragmented the
bullet, and sent a small lead fragment flying in my direction, which
was completely out of the line of fire.

So! The moral of that story being not to waste time in some attempt to
tell me what bullets and bullet fragments can and can not do!

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:46:22 PM10/11/07
to


A "nice story"!

Unfortunately, it does not fit any of the forensic; ballistic;
pathological; and/or physical facts.

Not to mention that it also fits virtually none of the witness
testimony.

Besides the little known fact that the entire curb and gutter of Elm
St., as well as Elm St. itself, was thoroughly searched in attempt to
find some indication of a bullet impact. Yet none was ever found.

Nope! Not some "cock & bull" story from the FBI/SS/DPD/etc;.

Personally relayed to me by Robert West, Surveyor, in his home in
Dallas, TX.

The entire street as well as the concrete curb and gutter were
completely and repeatedly checked, and absolutely no indication of a
bullet impact could be found.

*Ignore the "sparks in the street", as:
1. Copper Jacketed bullets do not create sparks! (too many movies
does this to one)
2. Even steel-jacketed bullets do not create sparks when impacting an
asphalt street, unless for some reason it should penetrate deep enough
into the asphalt to find an aggregate (rock). (again, too many movies
does this to one)


burgundy

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:54:24 PM10/11/07
to
On Oct 11, 12:12 am, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
> incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:
>
> 1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
> the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
> exclaim "My God! I've been hit!"

If that's the James Tague curb those fragments travelled quite a
distance.

cdddraftsman

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 11:56:25 PM10/11/07
to

Your almost there , but there is no evidence that JFK yelled out
anything in the Z-Film . We would definately see him reacting at Z-160
and all he does is drop his right arm , there's no expression of pain
or body movement , AAMOF all is normal until he emerges from behind
the sign and the second shot per Dale Myers :
See :
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl.htm
See:
Conclusions Based on the Computer Analysis
See :
There are three reactions to gunfire evident ......

He's got all the bases covered .........!

Lights Out ......Goodnight Irene ......tl


claviger

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 12:06:49 AM10/12/07
to
Martin,

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately it did not work for my computer. Do you
remember which witnesses said they heard one more shot after the head
shot?

John Canal

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 12:08:57 AM10/12/07
to
In article <1192117297.0...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
says...

>
>On Oct 10, 11:23?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> In article <1192032703.773064.212...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>> says...

<TOP POST>

The medical evidence thoroughly trumps witness testimony. Obviously,
though, you've got your mind made up so it doesn't make any sense for me
to argue with you.....maybe someone else will.

John Canal

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 12:31:20 PM10/12/07
to
On Oct 11, 11:08?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <1192117297.009449.295...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
> >http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0...
>
> >Z312
>
> >http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg
>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
> >Mr. LIEBELER - If he was hit in the neck.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually!

The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
of the head by two separate bullets.

Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
evidence either!


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 12:32:36 PM10/12/07
to
burgundy wrote:
> On Oct 11, 12:12 am, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tom,
>>
>> The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
>> incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:
>>
>> 1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
>> the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
>> exclaim "My God! I've been hit!"
>
> If that's the James Tague curb those fragments travelled quite a
> distance.
>

I don't think that's what he means. I think he meant hit the pavement
behind the limo.

claviger

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 12:33:02 PM10/12/07
to

Roy H. Kellerman
Assistent Special Agent in Charge
11-29-63
____________________________________

As the motorcade completed the main thoroughfare through Dallas, we
made s sharp right turn, for about a block, then curved left turn into
a slight downhill grade, entering an area with little or no
spectators. We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of
from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a
firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30
PM.

Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice.
"My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two
additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs.
Kennedy's lap and Governor Connelly fell into Mrs. Connelly's lap. I
heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"

I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and
grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police
lead car that we were hit and get us to a hospital.
____________________________________

This testimony corroborates the analysis by the ballistic expert as to
the sequence of shots and the reaction to those shots by passengers in
the President's limousine. Agent Kellerman describes three shots. He
makes it very clear after the first shot, JFK shouts "My God, I'm
hit!" As you mention the President's trachia was so damaged that he
could not speak therefore, the first shot did no damage to his throat.
Kellerman hears two more shots causing the President and Governor to
lean toward their spouses. Governor Connelly is already leaning toward
his wife at the time of the head shot, confirming that both he and the
President were hit by the second shot.

claviger

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 12:33:30 PM10/12/07
to
Tom,

Are you related to the famous FBI agent Melvin Purvis?


claviger

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 12:33:38 PM10/12/07
to

Somewhere I read where there was an obvious defect in the curb on Elm
Street which was later repaired by a maintenance crew, much to the
chagrin of the research community. I believe witnesses did see a puff
of what must have been cement dust, causing them to believe it was
smoke from a firecracker.

claviger

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 12:41:46 PM10/12/07
to
On Oct 11, 10:12 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:


Anthony,

I checked the testimony of Governor John Connelly and his wife Nellie
to the Warren Commission and HSCA. His testimony is the sound of the
first shot caused him to turn to his right. While turned to the right
he was struck by the second shot. Severly wounded he leaned into his
wife's lap and heard the third shot before losing consciousness. The
testimony of Nellie Connelly confirms the same sequence.

Agent Greer's testimony indicates he has the ability to focus only on
what is to the front and was not fully aware of what was going on
behind him. He makes no mention of hearing the President say anything.
The reason he was slow to react is the first shot sounded to him like
a motorcycle backfiring, a sound he heard more than once during the
motorcade. Kellerman was more aware of what was taking place inside
the limousine and ordered Greer to take off for the hospital.
Kellerman, Greer, and the Connellys testified they heard only three
shots fired at the limousine.

The Connelly's statements confirm the first shot did not wound the
Governor. Kellerman is emphatic he heard the President exclaim that he
was hit. This could only be after the first shot since the second shot
destroyed his trachia and his ability to speak.

A four member panel led by Dr. Russell Fisher, including Dr. Russell
Morgan, Dr. William Carnes, and Dr. Alan Moritz was the first group
outside the government to examine the JFK autopsy materials. They were
the first doctors to analize "Kennedy's Unknown Wound" described on
page 11 of the Bethesda autopsy report:

__________________________________________

Also there is, embedded in the outter table of the skull close to the
lower edge of the [entrance] hole , a large metallic fragment which on
the anteposterior film (#1) lies 25 mm. to the right of the midline.
This fragment as seen in the latter film is round and measures 6.5 mm.
in diameter.
__________________________________________


"Even though Fisher said the panel believed the fragment looked like a
ricochet fragment, there was no mention of this conjecture in the
written report. In fact, there was no explanation for the fragment at
all."

So we do have medical proof of a wound caused by a ricochet fragment
embedded into the back of the President's skull. All of the above
information was used by an experienced ballistics expert to determine
the sequence of shots and resulting wounds on the passengers in the
Presidential limousine.


Testimony Of Roy H. Kellerman, Special Agent, Secret Service
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/kellerma.htm

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 5:09:56 PM10/12/07
to
On Oct 10, 3:34?pm, Brokedad <temptypock...@aol.com> wrote:

>From the wonderful response, it is assumed that many here are of the
opinion that they known more about the assassination than did the US
Secret Service.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2295-003.gif


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 5:15:20 PM10/12/07
to
John Canal wrote:
> In article <1192117297.0...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
> says...
>> On Oct 10, 11:23?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>> In article <1192032703.773064.212...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>>> says...
>
> <TOP POST>
>
> The medical evidence thoroughly trumps witness testimony. Obviously,
> though, you've got your mind made up so it doesn't make any sense for me
> to argue with you.....maybe someone else will.
>

But the medical evidence means only what each person thinks it means.
Everyone does not agree on the interpretation of the medical evidence.
If they did, we wouldn't be here now.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 5:17:27 PM10/12/07
to

Yeah, the way they looked for the mark Tague saw and Underwood
photographed and they couldn't find it.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 5:17:35 PM10/12/07
to

How about if you actually prove something instead of insulting people?
You don't even know what locations correspond to which Zapruder frames.

> http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg
>
> http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg
>
> JFK's location at survey stationing 4+95/4+96.
> One just may want to take note of the "sprocket hole" film problem,
> and in event that they have nothing better to do, compare it with
> those frames in/around the Z210 sequence.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm
>
> Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which
> would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--
> about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side
> that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.
>
> Mr. ALTGENS - I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the
> President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good
> closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that
> it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area,
> and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as
> far as I got with my camera.
>

Again, do not rely on eyewitness statements.

John Canal

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 5:49:58 PM10/12/07
to

T. Purvis wrote:

>The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
>of the head by two separate bullets.

Would you elaborate on that? What medical evidence specifically shows
there were two shots to the head? Please list that evidence
here__________.

Thank you.

>Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
>evidence either!

Oh, there are some highly credible individuals here that might disagree
with you and say I know at least a fair amount about the medical evidence
as it relates to the head shot.

John Canal


John Canal

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 10:00:26 PM10/12/07
to
Marsh wrote:

>But the medical evidence means only what each person thinks it means.
>Everyone does not agree on the interpretation of the medical evidence.
>If they did, we wouldn't be here now.

"Nonsense", to borrow one of your favorite words. You need for there to be
a variety of interpretations of the medical evidence so you you don't have
to make your "wacky" (another of your favorite terms) theory fit what the
autopsy doctors reported.

John Canal


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 10:15:59 PM10/12/07
to

No, you are misrepresenting the evidence. Connally said that he turned to
the right and THEN was in the process of turning back to his left when he
was hit facing almost exactly straight forward. Stick to the facts.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Connally.htm

> wife's lap and heard the third shot before losing consciousness. The
> testimony of Nellie Connelly confirms the same sequence.
>
> Agent Greer's testimony indicates he has the ability to focus only on
> what is to the front and was not fully aware of what was going on
> behind him. He makes no mention of hearing the President say anything.
> The reason he was slow to react is the first shot sounded to him like
> a motorcycle backfiring, a sound he heard more than once during the
> motorcade. Kellerman was more aware of what was taking place inside
> the limousine and ordered Greer to take off for the hospital.
> Kellerman, Greer, and the Connellys testified they heard only three
> shots fired at the limousine.
>
> The Connelly's statements confirm the first shot did not wound the
> Governor. Kellerman is emphatic he heard the President exclaim that he

Precisely because he did not hear the shot which hit him! If you think
there were only three shots, then Connally only heard two. Because he did
not hear the shot which hit him. So again you are misrepresenting the
evidence to claim that the Connallys, plural testified that they heard
only three shots. You are misrepresenting the evidence. If Connally really
did hear three shots, but did not hear the one which hit him, that means
there were four shots. 3+1=4.

> was hit. This could only be after the first shot since the second shot
> destroyed his trachia and his ability to speak.
>
> A four member panel led by Dr. Russell Fisher, including Dr. Russell
> Morgan, Dr. William Carnes, and Dr. Alan Moritz was the first group
> outside the government to examine the JFK autopsy materials. They were
> the first doctors to analize "Kennedy's Unknown Wound" described on
> page 11 of the Bethesda autopsy report:
>
> __________________________________________
>
> Also there is, embedded in the outter table of the skull close to the
> lower edge of the [entrance] hole , a large metallic fragment which on
> the anteposterior film (#1) lies 25 mm. to the right of the midline.
> This fragment as seen in the latter film is round and measures 6.5 mm.
> in diameter.
> ______________

Pure nonsense.

____________________________
>
>
> "Even though Fisher said the panel believed the fragment looked like a
> ricochet fragment, there was no mention of this conjecture in the
> written report. In fact, there was no explanation for the fragment at
> all."
>

Why should there be?

>
>
> So we do have medical proof of a wound caused by a ricochet fragment
> embedded into the back of the President's skull. All of the above
> information was used by an experienced ballistics expert to determine
> the sequence of shots and resulting wounds on the passengers in the
> Presidential limousine.
>

No, we don't.
Some people think a piece of the bullet which hit the head scraped off.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 10:17:55 PM10/12/07
to

Somewhere you read? Please! Stick to facts.

> chagrin of the research community. I believe witnesses did see a puff

The way you are describing it indicates the curb near Tague which was
far AHEAD of the President's car.

> of what must have been cement dust, causing them to believe it was
> smoke from a firecracker.
>

I doubt that anyone said there was smoke from a firecracker. Can you
cite and quote such testimony?

>
>
>
>

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 10:19:25 PM10/12/07
to

What are you pretending to quote? Source please. Kellerman did not
misspell his name as Connelly with an "e." That's something that YOU do.

> ____________________________________
>
> As the motorcade completed the main thoroughfare through Dallas, we
> made s sharp right turn, for about a block, then curved left turn into
> a slight downhill grade, entering an area with little or no
> spectators. We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of
> from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a
> firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30
> PM.
>
> Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice.
> "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two
> additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs.
> Kennedy's lap and Governor Connelly fell into Mrs. Connelly's lap. I
> heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"
>
> I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and
> grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police
> lead car that we were hit and get us to a hospital.
> ____________________________________
>
> This testimony corroborates the analysis by the ballistic expert as to
> the sequence of shots and the reaction to those shots by passengers in

No, it does not. You can also find witnesses who reported only two shots
or four shots, or six shots. Never rely on an eyewitness statement to
prove anything.

> the President's limousine. Agent Kellerman describes three shots. He
> makes it very clear after the first shot, JFK shouts "My God, I'm
> hit!" As you mention the President's trachia was so damaged that he
> could not speak therefore, the first shot did no damage to his throat.

Everyone knows that Kellerman was wrong. We now have the Zapruder film
and Kennedy never says anything.

> Kellerman hears two more shots causing the President and Governor to
> lean toward their spouses. Governor Connelly is already leaning toward
> his wife at the time of the head shot, confirming that both he and the
> President were hit by the second shot.
>

You think so. Connally did not.
At least get his name right.

>
>

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 11:38:57 AM10/13/07
to
On Oct 12, 11:33?am, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Are you related to the famous FBI agent Melvin Purvis?


Far distant cousin!

He was quite obviously "off balance" as well, since he ultimately
committed suicide!


Thomas Melville Purvis (Purves), from SC to Alabama, to founding of
Purvis, MS.*

(* the original Town "Seal" for stamping documents is in my family
possession, which I have given to my oldest son)

http://www.lib.usm.edu/~archives/m252.htm

http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ms/msphotos/lamar/fillpurv/fillpurv.htm

The "Melville" is where the "Melvin" comes into being.

That and 50-cents may get one a cup of coffee.

However, the "Purvis" name certainly came in handy many years ago
which I used to speak with Frazier; Gallagher; Heilman; Heiberger;
etc; etc; in regards to the JFK issues.


Brokedad

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 11:40:20 AM10/13/07
to

Which one?

The one at Z313 which impacted in the "cowlick" area of the skull and
thus blew off the "skull cap" section of JFK's head?

or:

The one some 30-feet farther down Elm St. which struck JFK in the edge
of the hairline of the neck, traversed through the soft tissue at the
base of the neck/skull, and ultimately struck in the vicinity of the
EOP?


Brokedad

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 11:46:37 AM10/13/07
to
On Oct 12, 11:33?am, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> smoke from a firecracker.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

In event you have nothing better in life to do, there are those who
will attempt to "sell" you a reduced copy of the WC Survey Plat which
contains markings which claim to be where damage to the curb was
found.

Unfortunately, this rates up there with the "Six-Groove Bullet" and
the "Bottom Mounted Sling" swivel, in factual reality.

During the Time/Life assassination re-enactment and survey work of
11/26/63, as well as again throughout the SS assassination re-
enactment and survey work of 12/2, 3, & 4th, 1963, the entire street
(Elm St.) as well as adjacent curb, street gutter; and sidewalk, curb
inlets, etc; were thoroughly searched in effort to find any indication
of bullet impact.

None was found.

The ONLY area of any identifiable potential bullet impact was the
damage to the curb on Main St. which is associated with the "Tague"
hit.

Per personal conversations with Robert West, Surveyor! (Who by the
way also sent me copies of those photo's claiming bullet impacts down
by the curb inlet and manhole)


Brokedad

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 11:46:46 AM10/13/07
to
> >http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
>
> > Z313:-------------------------Stationing 4+65.3
>
> >http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
> > his head in my direction from where I was standing,- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You don't even know what locations correspond to which Zapruder
frames.
>


Perhaps not!

However, since I am in possession of:

1. 1 full-sized copy of the Time/Life survey plat dated 11/26/63
2. 1 full-sized copy of the US Secret Service survey plat dated
12/5/63
3. 2 full-sized copies of the FBI survey plat of 2/7/64
4. Two full-sized copies of the WC Survey Plat of May 31, 1964
5. Revision to the 2/7/64 FBI Survey Plat, dated 6/25/64
6. Copies of ALL known survey notes for the above assassination re-
enactment survey's.

Then, in all probability, I most likely have a far better idea as to
exactly where the Presidential Limo/President was at any given point
along Elm St., than you will ever have.


John Canal

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 10:25:10 PM10/13/07
to
In article <1192278955....@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
says...

>
>On Oct 12, 4:49?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> T. Purvis wrote:
>> >The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
>> >of the head by two separate bullets.
>>
>> Would you elaborate on that? What medical evidence specifically shows
>> there were two shots to the head? Please list that evidence
>> here__________.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> >Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
>> >evidence either!
>>
>> Oh, there are some highly credible individuals here that might disagree
>> with you and say I know at least a fair amount about the medical evidence
>> as it relates to the head shot.
>>
>> John Canal
>
>
>"as it relates to the head shot."
>
>Which one?
>
>The one at Z313 which impacted in the "cowlick" area of the skull and
>thus blew off the "skull cap" section of JFK's head?
>
>or:

I asked you to list the medical evidence proving your two shots to the
head theory and all you wrote were your conclusions.

Are you going to list the evidence or not?

The physical locations of where you think he was hit do not constitute
medical evidence...even someone who is good at making wisecracks should
know that.

List that medical evdence here_______________.

"or", just say you don't know of any.

John Canal

tomnln

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 10:26:22 PM10/13/07
to
Marina was Threatened with "Deportation".

As American Citizens, June & Rachael would STAY in this Country.


"Brokedad" <tempty...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1192277034....@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

r2bz...@sbcglobal.net

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 10:29:31 PM10/13/07
to
On Oct 10, 9:22 pm, mark foster <barloo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 10 Oct 2007 16:34:38 -0400, Brokedad <temptypock...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Thomas H. Purvis says:
>
> >One last time for those who actually care!
>
> >1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.
>
> >2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found
> >on the sixth floor of the TSDB.
>
> >3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO
> >was the shooter.
>
> >4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.
>
> >5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.
> >It is in fact the second shot fired.
>
> >6. LHO was a relatively good shooter, as is clearly demonstrated by
> >his USMC Rangefire Record.
>
> >7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards
> >(slope distance) from the window to the target.
>
> >8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in
> >those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during "Rapid Fire"
> >shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.
>
> >9. The third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, impacted
> >the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location
> >of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.
>
> >10. The WC is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the
> >assassination in which the WC presented that all of the shots were
> >fired within an approximate 5.6 to 5.9 second time frame window
> >(first shot to Z313 impact point), and that due to this "rushed"
> >shooting scenario, one of the shots completely missed everything and
> >everyone.
>
> >11. There was no "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!
>
> >http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm
>
> >12. With the available evidence, which included a first generation
> >copy of the Z-film, as well as availability of the witness
> >testimonies, the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily resolved
> >the shooting sequence of the shots fired.
>
> >http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm
>
> >13. There is absolutely nothing which is complicated in regards to the
> >shooting sequence which occurred in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.
> >What is complicated is the extent to which certain members of the WC
> >went to in order to make an entire shot "disappear", and thereafter
> >blame the wounds which the bullet created on CE399/aka the "Magic
> >Bullet".
>
> >14. CE399 is not "Magic".
>
> >15. In event that one desires to see the TRUE "Magic Bullet", then
> >might I recommend that they search for the one which disappeared.
>
> >There is no Magic!
>
> There may be no magic, but there is Truth. Yes, three shots were
> fired from the sixth floor by Oswald....but the first shot was at
> approximately Z160. It missed the limousine completely.
>
> Z313 was the LAST shot in the sequence. Sorry, but facts is facts.- Hide quoted text -
>

***Mr. Zapruder said that he saw JFK slump over after the first report.
Mrs. Connally said she turned around to look at JFK and see his hands at
his throat, after the first report.

In the Altgens photo, 3 agents were turned to the rear. Landis and Hickey
said they turned to the rear after hearing the first report. They were
both, just casually observing the crowd, as they disappeared from the
sprockets of Mr. Zapruder's film, well after Z160.

***Ron Judge


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 11:18:15 PM10/13/07
to

No, you don't, because:

A.) the West map was inaccurate
B.) the FBI and SS surveys were inaccurate
C.) the SS reenactment was inaccurate
D.) the FBI reenactment was inaccurate
E.) the placement of JFK at each Zapruder frame was inaccurate
F.) when you try to determine where the bullet hit for the shot which
you/FBI/SS thought hit Connally you are looking at the location of JFK,
not Connally who was a couple of feet in front of JFK.
Tell everyone when LIFE and the CIA thought each shot hit.


claviger

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 12:19:43 AM10/14/07
to


Anthony,

The Connallys testified there were 3 shots fired at the Presidential
limousine. Governor Connally claims the first shot did not hit him, nor
the third shot. By process of elimination it must have been the second
shot that wounded the Governor. Elementary Doctor Watson!

JFK Assassination Witness Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. IV - Page 129
Testimony of Gov. John Bowden Jr, Connally
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page129.php
Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. IV - Page 146
Testimony of Mrs. John Bowden Jr, Connally
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page146.php

- Show quoted text -

"Pure nonsense."

How so? Check it out for yourself:
The National Archives - JFK Assassination Records
Appendix 9: Autopsy Report and Supplemental Report
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/
____________________________

> "Even though Fisher said the panel believed the fragment looked like a
> ricochet fragment, there was no mention of this conjecture in the
> written report. In fact, there was no explanation for the fragment at
> all."

"Why should there be?"

Isn't that the purpose of an autopsy when a crime has been committed?

> So we do have medical proof of a wound caused by a ricochet fragment
> embedded into the back of the President's skull. All of the above
> information was used by an experienced ballistics expert to determine
> the sequence of shots and resulting wounds on the passengers in the
> Presidential limousine.

"No, we don't."

In 1968 Attorney General Ramsey Clark appointed a special panel of medical
experts to review the autopsy report made by the Bethesda Naval Hospital
on the body of President Kennedy. A group of four prominent medical
doctors were selected on the basis of their expertise and professional
reputation to serve on this panel. They were of the opinion this bullet
fragment located in the outer table of the skull beneath the entrance
wound could only have penetrated the scalp from outside the cranium. This
wound would be consistent with the fragmentation of a bullet resulting
from a ricochet off a hard surface.

"Some people think a piece of the bullet which hit the head scraped off."

What people? What does "scraped off" mean?

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 12:20:07 AM10/14/07
to

The autopsy doctors were incompetent. Do you believe that the entrance
wound was shallow and that the bullet fell out during heart massage as
Humes said? That's pretty wacky. Do you believe the shots came from 45 to
60 degrees above as Humes said? That's impossible. Do you believe that
there had been surgery to the top of the head as Humes said? Then you are
a Liftonite.

> John Canal
>
>

claviger

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 12:20:34 AM10/14/07
to

I will try to find the witness who said that but it may take awhile. I've
been reading about this subject for several years and I can't remember
every source, but that should not inhibit discussion. Perhaps someone else
has read the same thing and can help us identify the witness. I also
remember there was a chip or gouge in the curb on Elm Street that was
repaired by a maintenance crew. This was decried by critics of the WC as
an attempt to cover up evidence of an errant shot.

claviger

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 9:39:02 AM10/14/07
to

Kellerman, Roy S. WC Testimony, Original Report Agent, U.S. Secret
Service.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm


"Everyone knows that Kellerman was wrong."

Everybody? That's a lot of people! How do they know he's wrong? Why is
he wrong?


"We now have the Zapruder film and Kennedy never says anything."

The Zapruder film shows President Kennedy looking to his right,
relaxed and smiling as the limousine passes behind the Stemmons Fwy
sign. When the limousine emerges from behind the sign his posture is
completely different. He is facing forward and tensed up with his
fists under his chin. Obviously something happened to cause this
physical reaction. If you are trying to read his lips you can't see
his face while blocked by the sign. If the first shot missed the
limousine and hit the cement curb scattering bullet particles like
schrapnel, one fragment which embedded into the back of the Presidents
head, this is when he would be able to still speak the words "My God,
I'm hit!" This wound obviously took place behind the street sign and
is the first shot heard by Gov. Connally causing him to turn to the
right. The next shot pierced the President's back and throat slamming
into Gov. Connally. This wound destroyed the President's trachea so he
could no longer speak. The Connallys heard the third shot realizing it
probably hit the President.


John Canal

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 9:44:07 AM10/14/07
to
In article <5qqdneJTGdnFD4za...@comcast.com>, Anthony Marsh says...

No, but I don't posit wacky theories like you, i.e. NO HITS TO THE
BOH????????????? In fact, out of the thousands of JFK researchers, I'd venture
that you're the only one with that "no-hits-to-the-BOH" theory.

Now, regarding the relatively inconsequential opinions by Humes that you listed,
for God's sake, what's really important [Duh!] is that he was spot on when he
reported that JFK was hit in the head by ONE shot from behind...and, oh, BTW,
the medical evidence backs him up 100%...as do about a dozen forensic
pathologists.

IMO, your wacky theory is crazier than either the Greer did it or Jackie shot
JFK theories. Indeed, Anthony, you ought to go on tour with your
theories...heck, I can see a standing ovation now...except...they are standing
to leave after your opening statement.

John Canal

>> John Canal
>>
>>
>


Brokedad

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 9:44:21 AM10/14/07
to
> > John Canal- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"Do you believe that the entrance


> wound was shallow and that the bullet fell out during heart massage as
> Humes said? That's pretty wacky. Do you believe the shots came from 45 to
> 60 degrees above as Humes said? That's impossible."


Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of
that evidence.
As a general rule, it merely means that one either does not
understand, or is incapable of understanding the evidence.


Brokedad

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 9:45:38 AM10/14/07
to
> Tell everyone when LIFE and the CIA thought each shot hit.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


Better Yet!

Marsh is "inaccurate"!

That pretty well takes care of all ot it!

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 9:45:45 AM10/14/07
to
> ***Ron Judge- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Ron:

Time/Life, with availability of the original Z-film, on 11/26/63,
determined that the first shot was fired just as JFK passed the
leading edge of the Stemmons Road Sign. This fortunately, is "first
source" information.

Based on the surveyed position, transposed to the much larger WC
Survey Plat, this position equates to approximately the Z204/206
location.
Which also happens to correspond with what the "blur/jiggle" analysis
of frames 209/210/ & 211, when one computes the approximate time/
distance factor for the sound to have reached Zapruder.

Note: The survey work done for Time/Life by G. Breneman is extremely
poor and would not qualify as a "legal survey".
Due to a variety of problems with this work, attempting to transpose
this data to the considerably larger and more accurate WC survey plat,
has it's limitations to accuracy.


The SS as well as the FBI determined that JFK was fully struck by and
reacting to the impact of the first shot at what would be
approximately Z212/214.

Verification of this came through evaluation of several photo's, and
both ( SS & FBI) separately confirmed this in two separate survey's
and assassination re-enactments.

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 6:29:30 PM10/14/07
to
On Oct 13, 10:38?am, Brokedad <temptypock...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 12, 11:33?am, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
>
> > Are you related to the famous FBI agent Melvin Purvis?
>
> Far distant cousin!
>
> He was quite obviously "off balance" as well, since he ultimately
> committed suicide!
>
> Thomas Melville Purvis (Purves), from SC to Alabama, to founding of
> Purvis, MS.*
>
> (* the original Town "Seal" for stamping documents is in my family
> possession, which I have given to my oldest son)
>
> http://www.lib.usm.edu/~archives/m252.htm
>
> http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ms/msphotos/lamar/fillpurv/fillpurv...

>
> The "Melville" is where the "Melvin" comes into being.
>
> That and 50-cents may get one a cup of coffee.
>
> However, the "Purvis" name certainly came in handy many years ago
> which I used to speak with Frazier; Gallagher; Heilman; Heiberger;
> etc; etc; in regards to the JFK issues.

Back to geneology!

My mother's side of the family donated my "Howell" bloodline!

For another cup of coffee, (add 50-cents to this), the name "Purvis"
as well as "Howell" are written in the diary of LHO.

The "Oswald" family is originally from S. Mississippi,* as is the
"Harvey" family.
LHO's Grandfather was married in Harrison County, MS.
LHO's Mother & Ekdahl were married in S. MS.

Thomas Harvey Purvis was married in Gulfport/Harrison County, MS. (for
whatever that is worth)

"Purvis, MS" is just up the road from New Orleans, LA

*Actually, the Oswald family (of MS) is originally from Wilkinson
County, MS.

As is another famous Southerner:

http://www.rosemontplantation.com/

Who was married to "Varina Howell".

And lastly, Judge Robert H. Oswald, distant cousin of LHO, resides
right down the road in Pascagoula, MS.

And, as a member of the "Jackson County (MS) Citizens Council,
Attorney Robert H. Oswald was highly engaged in keeping the beaches of
Biloxi and Gulfport, MS (Harrison County) segregated, at exactly the
same period in life that LHO was attending Radar Operator School at
Keesler AFB, Gulfport, MS.

Not to mention the fact that in December 1961, Robert H. Oswald wrote
an article in which he severely condemned General Walker for having
not immediately resigned, as opposed to having commanded those troops
which were in charge of the Little Rock desegragation.

Lastly! Another former resident of Pascagoula, MS of some "note",
would be Mr. Farrell.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2243&pid=93386&st=105&#entry93386entry93386

Post #108

Irrelevant as to your interest, the MS Gulf Coast has it all!

Gambling
UFO's
Astronauts
Astronomically Nutty persons
As well as much about the Oswald family.

Brokedad

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 6:35:47 PM10/14/07
to
On Oct 13, 9:25?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <1192278955.010823.84...@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
> John Canal- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

"The physical locations of where you think he was hit do not


constitute
> medical evidence...even someone who is good at making wisecracks should
> know that."


Well!

Since you claim to know such a great deal, then it is assumed that you
are hopefully aware of the fact that:

1. The bullet entrance through the skull which the autopsy surgeons
reported was in the vicinity of the EOP.
2. The bullet entrance through the skull which the HSCA observed from
review of the anterior/posterior X-ray, happens to be some 10 cm (4-
inches higher than the EOP location as reported by the autopsy
surgeons).
3. The physical dimensions of the entrance wound through the skull
which the autopsy surgeons measured, does not match the physical
dimensions of the entrance through the skull which the HSCA
determined.
4. The actual point of entrance for the bullet which struck JFK in
the EOP region of the skull was at the edge of the hairline at the
base of the skull.*

*Perhaps you would like to explain exactly how a 2,000 fps copper-
jacketed bullet, fired on a downward angle of from 12- degrees to 18-
degrees, struck in the edge of the hairline at the base of the skull
and thereafter entered the skull some 6 or so inches higher, at the
cowlick area.

NOW! I happen to know a lot of grade school kids who can figure this
one out.

Not to mention that the elongated nature of the EOP entry through the
skull will fully tell one the "angle of attack"/attitude in which the
skull had to have been in, in order to have received this elongated
penetration through the skull.

Lastly, at risk of re-incurring the wrath of Mr. Von Pein:

Point A---------oblique bullet entrance through the coat of JFK at the
edge of the coat collar and slightly right of center of the coat.

Point B---------bullet penetration into the skin of JFK at the edge of
the hairline at the base of the neck, slightly right of center

Point C--------bullet pathway through the soft flesh of the neck of
JFK at the base of the skull.

Point D--------elongated bullet entrance through the skull of JFK,
slightly to the right of center and slightly above the EOP.

Point E--------bullet entrance into the brain of JFK at the upper edge
of the occipital lobe of the brain.


Try "connecting the dots", and if and when you can figure it out, then
get back to me on it and I just may describe the remainder of the
bullet track through the mid-brain!

r2bz...@sbcglobal.net

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 6:44:32 PM10/14/07
to
> and assassination re-enactments.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


***The blur that Breneman should have looked at was at Z227. It was an
odd jump. It also was in virtual sync with JFK's springing arms and JBC's
springing right arm. I believe the jump at Z227 to be Zapruder's startle
reaction to hearing the first shot.

I believe the LN consensus, missed first shot, needs to be re- evaluated.

***Ron Judge


r2bz...@sbcglobal.net

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 6:44:55 PM10/14/07
to
> EOP?- Hide quoted text -
>


***If Oswald was doing all the shooting, he would have seen JFK's lifeless
body, fall back against the seat, after the fatal shot. I imagine he
would have assumed he killed the President. I do not believe he would
have found reason to shoot again.

If there were 2 shooters, if one saw JFK's head explode, it is unlikely he
would have also fired, unless he was coincidently firing at the same time
as the other shooter, or about to fire and reflexively pulled the trigger
in response to the other shot.

***Ron Judge


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 8:02:39 PM10/14/07
to

But what frame did LIFE pick for the first shot in its analysis?

> Which also happens to correspond with what the "blur/jiggle" analysis
> of frames 209/210/ & 211, when one computes the approximate time/
> distance factor for the sound to have reached Zapruder.
>

Whose jiggle analysis shows frames 209/210/211? Source please.

> Note: The survey work done for Time/Life by G. Breneman is extremely
> poor and would not qualify as a "legal survey".
> Due to a variety of problems with this work, attempting to transpose
> this data to the considerably larger and more accurate WC survey plat,
> has it's limitations to accuracy.
>
>
> The SS as well as the FBI determined that JFK was fully struck by and
> reacting to the impact of the first shot at what would be
> approximately Z212/214.
>

They never specified any specific frames.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 8:03:18 PM10/14/07
to


Why these constant personal attacks. I have a lot more information than
you do. Is it jealousy? My sarcasm was accurate and proves that the
autopsy doctors were incompetent.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 8:03:41 PM10/14/07
to
John Canal wrote:
> In article <5qqdneJTGdnFD4za...@comcast.com>, Anthony Marsh says...
>> John Canal wrote:
>>> Marsh wrote:
>>>
>>>> But the medical evidence means only what each person thinks it means.
>>>> Everyone does not agree on the interpretation of the medical evidence.
>>>> If they did, we wouldn't be here now.
>>> "Nonsense", to borrow one of your favorite words. You need for there to be
>>> a variety of interpretations of the medical evidence so you you don't have
>>> to make your "wacky" (another of your favorite terms) theory fit what the
>>> autopsy doctors reported.
>>>
>> The autopsy doctors were incompetent. Do you believe that the entrance
>> wound was shallow and that the bullet fell out during heart massage as
>> Humes said? That's pretty wacky. Do you believe the shots came from 45 to
>> 60 degrees above as Humes said? That's impossible. Do you believe that
>> there had been surgery to the top of the head as Humes said? Then you are
>> a Liftonite.
>
> No, but I don't posit wacky theories like you, i.e. NO HITS TO THE
> BOH????????????? In fact, out of the thousands of JFK researchers, I'd venture
> that you're the only one with that "no-hits-to-the-BOH" theory.
>

That might have been true before David Wimp's presentation, but now many
researchers such as Josiah Thompson believe that there was only one shot
to the head and it came from the right front.

> Now, regarding the relatively inconsequential opinions by Humes that you listed,
> for God's sake, what's really important [Duh!] is that he was spot on when he
> reported that JFK was hit in the head by ONE shot from behind...and, oh, BTW,
> the medical evidence backs him up 100%...as do about a dozen forensic
> pathologists.
>

No, you miss the point of my sarcasm. Those are examples of how
incompetent the autopsy doctors were. And you can't even admit that
simplest point. Like a doctor operating on the wrong arm or leaving
forceps in the body or leaving the patient on the operating table to go
cash his check.


> IMO, your wacky theory is crazier than either the Greer did it or Jackie shot
> JFK theories. Indeed, Anthony, you ought to go on tour with your
> theories...heck, I can see a standing ovation now...except...they are standing
> to leave after your opening statement.
>

When you have run out of facts you resort to personal attacks.

> John Canal
>
>>> John Canal
>>>
>>>
>
>

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 8:05:05 PM10/14/07
to

Because we've been over this thousands of times, but you never saw the
messages. None of the other passengers in the limo said that Kennedy
spoke at all. He had a torn trachea. The Zapruder film shows that he
never spoke.

>
> "We now have the Zapruder film and Kennedy never says anything."
>
> The Zapruder film shows President Kennedy looking to his right,
> relaxed and smiling as the limousine passes behind the Stemmons Fwy
> sign. When the limousine emerges from behind the sign his posture is
> completely different. He is facing forward and tensed up with his
> fists under his chin. Obviously something happened to cause this
> physical reaction. If you are trying to read his lips you can't see
> his face while blocked by the sign. If the first shot missed the
> limousine and hit the cement curb scattering bullet particles like
> schrapnel, one fragment which embedded into the back of the Presidents
> head, this is when he would be able to still speak the words "My God,
> I'm hit!" This wound obviously took place behind the street sign and
> is the first shot heard by Gov. Connally causing him to turn to the
> right. The next shot pierced the President's back and throat slamming
> into Gov. Connally. This wound destroyed the President's trachea so he
> could no longer speak. The Connallys heard the third shot realizing it
> probably hit the President.
>
>

So your only way out is to think up a shot while he was behind the sign?
That's an old WC trick. But that shot tore through his trachea so he
could not speak. Explain how you have two shots within the range of
frames 210 to 225.

>
>

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 8:05:51 PM10/14/07