Eyewitness Ernest Carl Brandt responds (text only)
Dave Reitzes
Carl Brandt (http://www.jfk-tour.com/) to buttress the theory that a shot
struck President Kennedy at about frame 190 of the Zapruder film. I have
exchanged a few letters with Mr. Brandt, who disagrees strongly with
Roberdeau's assessment.
Roberdeau writes:
(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Another important, living, witness who can be seen in the ZAPRUDER film is
ERNEST CARL BRANDT, whom I located, and have communicated with.
In Zf-133 we can all see him standing at the edge of the north Elm Street
sidewalk, wearing his brimmed suit hat, dark coat, with his hands in his
pockets, just about center vertical line of the film frame.
Using the wc.group's ROBERT H. WEST Dallas County Surveyor's Dealy [sic]
Plaza map of 31MAY64, and plotting BRANDT's location, BRANDT is standing next
to his customer, JOHN TEMPLIN, near JOHN CHISM, KAREN HICKS, and KAREN
WESTBROOK. All of these witnesses were standing just east of the (d a r n)
"Stemmons Freeway Sign." . . .
It is easy to actually plot BRANDT's exact position. He is nearly directly
in line with ZAPRUDER and the north most point, of the southwest curb of Elm
and Houston. This line of sight also intersects Elm Street's north lane, third,
white street lane stripe.
VERY interesting is that according to one of BRANDT's statements he,
<QUOTE>
was standing a mere 15 feet from the presidential limousine when the first shot
was fired.
<QUOTE.off>
[...]
BRANDT said he heard 3 audible muzzle blasts.
BRANDT said that the first audible muzzle blast most definately [sic]
impacted the President.
According to BRANDT, the President was just past BRANDT when the first
audible muzzle blast was fired, and impacted.
My calculations show that a one o'clock position past BRANDT . . . was
(facing perpendicular to the street flow) approximately 2' past BRANDT, and 15'
away, put President KENNEDYat Zf-194-195.
As you [Barb Junkkarinen] point out in one of your four related posts, it
is interesting to remember that military veteran PHIL WILLIS always maintained
the first audible muzzle blast that he heard involuntarily caused him to
depress the shutter on his camera, and record his WILLIS #5 slide at exactly
Zf-202.
(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I decided to contact Mr. Brandt about these contentions, because I knew them to
be completely contrary to Brandt's own convictions. For example, in a
videotaped interview produced by M & A Book Dealer ("JFK Researchers in Dallas,
1993-2000," write M & A Book Dealer, PO Box 2422, Waco, TX 76703), Brandt
displays a copy of the slide taken by Phil Willis, referred to by Mr. Roberdeau
above, and says:
(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Does he [the President] appear to be waving or does he appear to be shot
there? Everything looks cool to me. And I called Mr. Willis and I talked to
him. . . . He says, Ernest, I took that picture at the sound of the first shot.
. . . I said, Mr. Willis, I disagree with you a little bit. He says, why? I
said, because it appears to me that [in the Willis slide] Kennedy is right
straight out from me at twelve o'clock [at the twelve o'clock position]. . . .
Well, I know for a fact, because I was there, that Kennedy was about one
o'clock when the first shot was fired. . . . [Researcher Robert] Groden thinks
the shot hit Kennedy when the limo was way up here [Zapruder frame 193]. I'D
STAKE MY LIFE ON THE FACT THAT THAT IS NOT TRUE -- [that the President was not
shot] before he went behind the sign [in the Zapruder film]. . . . That's one
reason that the investigation couldn't prove exactly when the first shot was
fired, because he WAS behind the sign." (Emphasis added.)
(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I sent Ernest Brandt a copy of Roberdeau's post and asked if he had any comment
he would care to make about it. In a letter of June 21, 2001, Brandt responded
as follows:
(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thnx [sic] David for your nice letter of June 16. It is always a pleasure for
me to receive "notes" of interest from JFK researchers & I am also flattered
that people I do not know are using my statements & quotes!! I welcome your
interest in my experience as an eye-witness to JFK's murder!!
I will attempt to clarify & explain CAREFULLY what I saw & what the "Z" film
tells me. I would like to state that I have always attempted to be VERY CAREFUL
& EXACT when communicating details about my experience to others, so I will TRY
to be precise in this letter also! But we must realize that EXACTNESS is not
always possible. For instance, I have stated many times that I was ABOUT 15
feet from JFK when the FIRST shot was fired. But I have NEVER been able to
actually measure the distance due to the CONSTANT stream of vehicles on that
part of Elm Street, so my "15 feet" is only an estimate of that distance!! But
it is a close guess. Also the "one o'clock" estimate of JFK's location at the
moment of the FIRST shot is likewise a "guess." But again, I think "reasonably"
accurate.
Now, the statement of mine about JFK getting hit in the BACK of the neck (at
the BASE of his neck) in frames (or ABOUT frames) 208-210 is also my GUESS!! We
all know that the speed of the camera was 18.3 frames per second & I have no
way of determining EXACTLY which frame is the VERY LAST FRAME showing JFK
before he slips behind the "leading" edge of the sign!! And the camera speed is
a factor because even if JFK is hit at, say, frame #200, in only ONE SECOND the
film is at frame #218.3 [sic]!!! So it is really anyone's guess as to which
frame in the "Z" film was (or is) the PRECISE FRAME in which JFK received the
neck shot -- especially since he appears to be OKAY & UNHIT prior to moving
behind the sign!! It is very obvious, to me at least, that JFK has been hit
when he emerges from BEHIND the sign in frame #225 with his hands rising to his
face/mouth area -- because that is EXACTLY what I saw -- except JFK was
SLIGHTLY PAST me so I saw his arm-raising action from his RIGHT-REAR, while Mr.
"Z" was situated at JFK's right front!!! I have written Gerald Posner to inform
him of his error about the FIRST shot hitting a tree limb & missing JFK!!! I am
confident that the FIRST shot hit JFK in the neck!!
In conclusion, Mr. Roberdeau's statement about the "1 o'clock" position putting
JFK "ABOUT" 2' PAST ME & 15 feet away is not accurate in my opinion. I have
never even attempted to estimate the "STRAIGHT-LINE" distance from me to JFK at
the FIRST shot!! Please study the enclosed map & you will get a reasonably
accurate idea of my "spot" & JFK's too.
Enough for now. Reply if you wish.
(signed) Ernest Brandt
PS.
David --
I rambled so much in the letter I failed to mention that I am TOTALLY &
COMPLETELY convinced that Oswald acted ALONE -- NO HELP FROM ANYONE.
My 37 1/2 years of off & on research has failed to indicate to me that ANYBODY
else was involved!
[...]
(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mr. Brandt also enclosed a copy of the Charles Bronson photograph believed to
coincide approximately with Zapruder frames 220-225 (according to Richard
Trask, Pictures of the Pain, p. 285). On this photograph Brandt indicated his
position as well as that of the President and Abraham Zapruder (see file
attachment). On the reverse of the photo, Brandt writes:
(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David --
You can see me with my WHITE SHIRT in view & JFK SLIGHTLY PAST ME!! This photo
was taken REALLY CLOSE to the moment of the FIRST SHOT!!!! Perhaps even at the
SAME INSTANT of that FIRST ONE!!!!
I KNOW, repeat, KNOW that JFK was JUST ABOUT at this spot when that FIRST shot
was fired & you too can see that he was CLOSE to a "1 o'clock" position in
relation to me on the curb!!!!
(signed) Ernest Brandt
(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In a subsequent letter to me (which, due to its subject matter, will be the
subject of a separate post), dated July 14, 2001, Brandt added:
(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I suggest you re-read & analyze the info on page 133 in PICTURES OF THE PAIN .
. . THAT INFO CORRELATES CLOSELY WITH MY EXPERIENCE AND THE RESULTS OF MY 37
1/2 years of research!!!!!
(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Here is the relevant passage in Trask, pp. 133:
(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The first suspicious movement seen in the President's reaction is at
approximately Z200, when Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze and his right hand
abruptly stops in the middle of a waving motion. His head also rapidly moves
from the right to- ward his wife on his left. By the time Kennedy disappears
behind the sign at Z207, the panel found, ". . . he is evidencing some kind of
reaction to a severe external stimulus," and emerges from behind the sign at
Z225 clearly having been shot. So too, Connally's movements as he emerges from
behind the sign at Z222-Z224 indicates he is also reacting to severe external
stimulus. He is frowning and his shoulders and upper trunk are rigid. A rapid
change in his facial expression and his head movement follow.
(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
These statements should end any speculation that eyewitness Ernest Carl Brandt
places a shot in the vicinity of Zapruder frame 190. "I'd stake my life on the
fact that that is not true," Brandt says.
Dave
Perpetual Starlight
http://reitzes.www4.50megs.com/
Original fiction, articles, music and more
ve...@removethis.yahoo.com
I'm puzzled that Kennedy's waving motion and head turn are used by
some to indicate that he's been shot. Why? Because he performs this
very same wave and head turn at other times in the motorcade. There
is film of it. Yeah, it's a little strange looking, but apparently
normal for Kennedy. As far as I've seen, nothing of any substance has
been presented to indicate a shot at or about Z190. And some of what
I've seen to back up a 190 shot is clearly wrong.
Stuart Wexler
> approximately Z200, when Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze and his right hand
> abruptly stops in the middle of a waving motion. His head also rapidly moves
> from the right to- ward his wife on his left. By the time Kennedy disappears
> behind the sign at Z207, the panel found, ". . . he is evidencing some kind of
> reaction to a severe external stimulus," and emerges from behind the sign at
> Z225 clearly having been shot. So too, Connally's movements as he emerges from
> behind the sign at Z222-Z224 indicates he is also reacting to severe external
> stimulus. He is frowning and his shoulders and upper trunk are rigid. A rapid
> change in his facial expression and his head movement follow.
>
Dave,
I quoted the above because you are missing some relevant issues here.
Barb, I'm sure Dave, Bill Hamley, me, and just about every other 190+ shot
enthusiast happens to agree with, and have CITED, the very passage from
the HSCA that Trask cited. How can we do this? Because the a 200-207
reaction is PERFECTLY CONSISTENT with JFK having been struck at 190-195.
You are talking tenths of a second here. It is far more consistent than,
say, JFK reacting in 1/9th of a second to a shot at frame 223-4. Brandt
could be perfectly honest in his feelings that JFK was struck at the
200-207 position based on how JFK IS *VISIBLY* REACTING. But he isn't a
doctor or medical expert. If you read the Eisenberg memo you'll see the
kind of frame delays that are possible once you postulate a visible
reaction. PLEASE read them. What you have just done is solidy Brandt as a
witness who undermines the SBT theory and who is consistent with
everything Barb, Dave R, and others have been saying.
-Stu
ve...@removethis.yahoo.com
wrote:
>> The first suspicious movement seen in the President's reaction is at
>> approximately Z200, when Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze and his right hand
>> abruptly stops in the middle of a waving motion. His head also rapidly moves
>> from the right to- ward his wife on his left. By the time Kennedy disappears
>> behind the sign at Z207, the panel found, ". . . he is evidencing some kind of
>> reaction to a severe external stimulus," and emerges from behind the sign at
>> Z225 clearly having been shot. So too, Connally's movements as he emerges from
>> behind the sign at Z222-Z224 indicates he is also reacting to severe external
>> stimulus. He is frowning and his shoulders and upper trunk are rigid. A rapid
>> change in his facial expression and his head movement follow.
>>
>
>Dave,
>
>I quoted the above because you are missing some relevant issues here.
>Barb, I'm sure Dave, Bill Hamley, me, and just about every other 190+ shot
>enthusiast happens to agree with, and have CITED, the very passage from
>the HSCA that Trask cited. How can we do this? Because the a 200-207
>reaction is PERFECTLY CONSISTENT with JFK having been struck at 190-195.
If there was a reaction at 200-207. Having seen Kennedy perform a
virtually identical wave/head turn in footage from elsewhere in the
motorcade, I see no reason at all to attribute what happens at
Z200-207 to a gunshot. He's performed the exact same actions before.
Also interesting is that in the passage you quoted they make no
mention of the movement of Connally right hand. Apparently they
missed a few things.
Stuart Wexler
<ve...@removethis.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3b61fab3...@news.prodigy.net...
What footage?? Let's see if what you say is correct.
He's performed the exact same actions before.
> Also interesting is that in the passage you quoted they make no
> mention of the movement of Connally right hand. Apparently they
> missed a few things.
I see nothing of note of in the movement of Connally's hand at that point.
Barb Junkkarinen
>On 26 Jul 2001 20:43:43 -0500, "Stuart Wexler" <Stu-d...@home.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> The first suspicious movement seen in the President's reaction is at
>>> approximately Z200, when Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze and his right hand
>>> abruptly stops in the middle of a waving motion. His head also rapidly moves
>>> from the right to- ward his wife on his left. By the time Kennedy disappears
>>> behind the sign at Z207, the panel found, ". . . he is evidencing some kind of
>>> reaction to a severe external stimulus," and emerges from behind the sign at
>>> Z225 clearly having been shot. So too, Connally's movements as he emerges from
>>> behind the sign at Z222-Z224 indicates he is also reacting to severe external
>>> stimulus. He is frowning and his shoulders and upper trunk are rigid. A rapid
>>> change in his facial expression and his head movement follow.
>>>
>>
>>Dave,
>>
>>I quoted the above because you are missing some relevant issues here.
>>Barb, I'm sure Dave, Bill Hamley, me, and just about every other 190+ shot
>>enthusiast happens to agree with, and have CITED, the very passage from
>>the HSCA that Trask cited. How can we do this? Because the a 200-207
>>reaction is PERFECTLY CONSISTENT with JFK having been struck at 190-195.
>
>If there was a reaction at 200-207. Having seen Kennedy perform a
>virtually identical wave/head turn in footage from elsewhere in the
>motorcade, I see no reason at all to attribute what happens at
>Z200-207 to a gunshot.
Virtually "identical" ??? Really...where can we see this?
> He's performed the exact same actions before.
>Also interesting is that in the passage you quoted they make no
>mention of the movement of Connally right hand. Apparently they
>missed a few things.
Looks like we all have .... just what movement of Connally's right
hand do you see in Z200-207? If I am playing the film correctly in my
head, JBC's right hand isn't even visible after about Z195 or 196
.... and from Z200-207 all we can see of Connally at all is from
about the chin up around 200, and by 207, maybe from the forehead up
if at all....
Barb :-)
ve...@removethis.yahoo.com
wrote:
There is a clip of Kennedy doing this type of wave. I've seen it many
times but never really looked closely at it. Then I checked out "JFK: the
Dallas Tapes" from my library recently. There is a promotional piece for
the 6th Floor Museum where this clip is shown. It shows Kennedy looking
directly toward the camera as he smiles and lifts his hand up as the limo
passes the camera in that same wave gesture he does in the Zapruder film.
Then he turns his palm to his left and swipes it across his face as he
turns his head to the front. Same gesture in the Z film. It struck me as
I watched it how closely it mimicked the Zapruder film. I tried to locate
this clip on the web so I could reference it, but couldn't find it. It's
probably out there somewhere, though. If you have access to that tape I
mentioned, it is in there.
>
>He's performed the exact same actions before.
>> Also interesting is that in the passage you quoted they make no
>> mention of the movement of Connally right hand. Apparently they
>> missed a few things.
>
>I see nothing of note of in the movement of Connally's hand at that point.
>\
Connally's right hand jumps from his lap area to just under his chin in
frames 225-228. In frames 228-230, his right wrist snaps forward
violently. You can see this by observing the motion of his Stetson, which
he is holding in his right hand. Watch the slow motion zooms in IOAA.
You can see the blur of the hat as it rises in frames 225-227. Then it is
suspended in front of his chin at frame 228. You can make out the details
of the hat in this frame. In the next two frames, the hat turns over
rapidly, as the underside of the hat points at Connally's face at frame
228, and toward Zapruder's camera at frame 230. Someone posted this
sequence at 18 fps. At that speed, it's too fast to see. You can see it
in slow motion, however.
ve...@removethis.yahoo.com
See my reply to Stuart. It's a clip that's played often. I saw it on the
History channel the other day in a show about Jackie Kennedy and fashion.
I think if you examine it closely you will see how remarkably similar the
motions he makes in it are to his actions in the Zapruder film. Right
down to the head turn as he swipes his hand from right to left across his
face.
>
>> He's performed the exact same actions before.
>>Also interesting is that in the passage you quoted they make no
>>mention of the movement of Connally right hand. Apparently they
>>missed a few things.
>
>Looks like we all have .... just what movement of Connally's right
>hand do you see in Z200-207? If I am playing the film correctly in my
>head, JBC's right hand isn't even visible after about Z195 or 196
>.... and from Z200-207 all we can see of Connally at all is from
>about the chin up around 200, and by 207, maybe from the forehead up
>if at all....
The quote referred to Connally's reactions as he emerged from behind the
sign, not at 200-207. There are some extraordinary movements of
Connally's right hand/wrist at this point, as has been noted many times.
Dgosha
showing JFK waving is at John M's site.
Go to the Single Bullet Theory page. The fourth bullet down on the page
refers to the DCA film. Although John is using this to show that JBC was
inboard of JFK, it also shows JFK waving and suddenly stopping and turning
his head.
Click on the first sequence. It's a RealPlayer file.
Doug
Barb Junkkarinen
What he is doing after 195 in the Z-film is not swiping his hand
across his face. Watch that relevant footage from 195 to 207.
>
>>
>>> He's performed the exact same actions before.
>>>Also interesting is that in the passage you quoted they make no
>>>mention of the movement of Connally right hand. Apparently they
>>>missed a few things.
>>
>>Looks like we all have .... just what movement of Connally's right
>>hand do you see in Z200-207? If I am playing the film correctly in my
>>head, JBC's right hand isn't even visible after about Z195 or 196
>>.... and from Z200-207 all we can see of Connally at all is from
>>about the chin up around 200, and by 207, maybe from the forehead up
>>if at all....
>
>The quote referred to Connally's reactions as he emerged from behind the
>sign, not at 200-207. There are some extraordinary movements of
>Connally's right hand/wrist at this point, as has been noted many times.
And Connally's movements after the sign have *what* exactly to do with
JFK's movements *before* the sign?? I don't dispute Connally's
movements, the hand jerk, the hat flip, etc after 224. It would seem
that you are trying to somehow justify saying that if Connally wasn't
shot (and reacting) until after 224, then JFK can't possibly have been
shot and showing beginning signs of reaction before the sign. Well, I
can see your problem there ..... two shots that close together mean
two guns ...... and you can't leave the door open for that afterall!
Barb :-)
ve...@removethis.yahoo.com
You got it, Doug. Thanks for locating it.
-Venem
ve...@removethis.yahoo.com
Junkkarinen) wrote:
Barb, he is doing in the Zapruder film exactly the same thing he is
doing in the clip I mentioned. The clip is here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dca1.rm
The hand comes up in the wave, palm facing forward. Take a look at Z192
to see his palm facing forward. Same thing in the dca1.rm clip. Then he
turns the palm toward his left and brings his hand down from right to left
across his face. This is the same in both the Zapruder film and the dca1
clip. He turns his head forward at the same time in both films. It's the
same motion, Barb. A pattern he obviously is repeating.
Also, freeze the dca1 clip when his right hand drops down to about
shoulder level and compare it to Z224. See how that hand is coming down
in the same manner?
>>>
>>>> He's performed the exact same actions before.
>>>>Also interesting is that in the passage you quoted they make no
>>>>mention of the movement of Connally right hand. Apparently they
>>>>missed a few things.
>>>
>>>Looks like we all have .... just what movement of Connally's right
>>>hand do you see in Z200-207? If I am playing the film correctly in my
>>>head, JBC's right hand isn't even visible after about Z195 or 196
>>>.... and from Z200-207 all we can see of Connally at all is from
>>>about the chin up around 200, and by 207, maybe from the forehead up
>>>if at all....
>>
>>The quote referred to Connally's reactions as he emerged from behind the
>>sign, not at 200-207. There are some extraordinary movements of
>>Connally's right hand/wrist at this point, as has been noted many times.
>
>And Connally's movements after the sign have *what* exactly to do with
>JFK's movements *before* the sign?? I don't dispute Connally's
>movements, the hand jerk, the hat flip, etc after 224. It would seem
>that you are trying to somehow justify saying that if Connally wasn't
>shot (and reacting) until after 224, then JFK can't possibly have been
>shot and showing beginning signs of reaction before the sign. Well, I
>can see your problem there ..... two shots that close together mean
>two guns ...... and you can't leave the door open for that afterall!
Why can't I leave the door open on that? Do you think I care if there was
a conspiracy? I don't. I'm perfectly willing to concede two bullets
close together *if* the evidence backs it up. It doesn't. My point was
that they completely missed the reaction we can see in Connally's right
hand. They didn't mention it. Iow, we can't accept their opinion blindly
on this. I think they were dead wrong in claiming that Kennedy was
evidencing a reaction at Z200. I also think some of the things you're
putting forth to back up a shot at 190 crumble under scrutiny. :-)
-Venem
Barb Junkkarinen
Hi there,
Been there/done that .... watched it several times this morning. He is
not making the same motion at all, imo .... not even close. Since the
clip is readily available online for all to see, maybe others will
tell us how they see JFK's movements in this clip compare to his
actions in the Z-film from Z190 thru Z207.
>
>The hand comes up in the wave, palm facing forward. Take a look at Z192
>to see his palm facing forward. Same thing in the dca1.rm clip. Then he
>turns the palm toward his left and brings his hand down from right to left
>across his face. This is the same in both the Zapruder film and the dca1
>clip. He turns his head forward at the same time in both films. It's the
>same motion, Barb. A pattern he obviously is repeating.
See above.
>
>Also, freeze the dca1 clip when his right hand drops down to about
>shoulder level and compare it to Z224. See how that hand is coming down
>in the same manner?
Doesn't look the least bit like it to me. Anybody else?
>
>>>>
>>>>> He's performed the exact same actions before.
>>>>>Also interesting is that in the passage you quoted they make no
>>>>>mention of the movement of Connally right hand. Apparently they
>>>>>missed a few things.
>>>>
>>>>Looks like we all have .... just what movement of Connally's right
>>>>hand do you see in Z200-207? If I am playing the film correctly in my
>>>>head, JBC's right hand isn't even visible after about Z195 or 196
>>>>.... and from Z200-207 all we can see of Connally at all is from
>>>>about the chin up around 200, and by 207, maybe from the forehead up
>>>>if at all....
>>>
>>>The quote referred to Connally's reactions as he emerged from behind the
>>>sign, not at 200-207. There are some extraordinary movements of
>>>Connally's right hand/wrist at this point, as has been noted many times.
>>
>>And Connally's movements after the sign have *what* exactly to do with
>>JFK's movements *before* the sign?? I don't dispute Connally's
>>movements, the hand jerk, the hat flip, etc after 224. It would seem
>>that you are trying to somehow justify saying that if Connally wasn't
>>shot (and reacting) until after 224, then JFK can't possibly have been
>>shot and showing beginning signs of reaction before the sign. Well, I
>>can see your problem there ..... two shots that close together mean
>>two guns ...... and you can't leave the door open for that afterall!
>
>Why can't I leave the door open on that? Do you think I care if there was
>a conspiracy? I don't. I'm perfectly willing to concede two bullets
>close together *if* the evidence backs it up.
Good. :-)
> It doesn't. My point was
>that they completely missed the reaction we can see in Connally's right
>hand. They didn't mention it. Iow, we can't accept their opinion blindly
>on this.
I think it's easier to miss a reaction than for multiple
experts/people to see one where none exists. Nobody should accept
anyone's word blindly on anything in this arena, imo.
> I think they were dead wrong in claiming that Kennedy was
>evidencing a reaction at Z200. I also think some of the things you're
>putting forth to back up a shot at 190 crumble under scrutiny. :-)
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. Care to tell me what you've
scrutinized and lay out the crumbs? :-)
Barb :-)
>
>-Venem
ve...@removethis.yahoo.com
Junkkarinen) wrote:
<snip>
>>Barb, he is doing in the Zapruder film exactly the same thing he is
>>doing in the clip I mentioned. The clip is here:
>>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dca1.rm
>
>Hi there,
>
>Been there/done that .... watched it several times this morning. He is
>not making the same motion at all, imo .... not even close. Since the
>clip is readily available online for all to see, maybe others will
>tell us how they see JFK's movements in this clip compare to his
>actions in the Z-film from Z190 thru Z207.
Not even close, eh? :-) You sure about that? To my eye, they are
remarkably alike. Could you please detail how they are so different?
My list of similarities follows:
1. Right hand rises from car door, palm forward, as JFK's head turns
right.
2. Big smile from JFK as his head reaches it's maximum turn and his
hand reaches it's highest point. I would say one minor difference is
that he bends his hand at the wrist slightly more in the Z film here,
giving it more height.
3. Palm turns to the left, toward Jackie, as the head remains turned
to the right. In the Z film, this turn begins at about frame 193.
4. Right hands starts sweeping from right to left across his face as
his head remains turned to the right.
5. After right hand begins sweeping across his face, his head starts
turning toward the front.
6. Right hand is cupped down as he drops it across his body. See
Zapruder frame 224.
That's quite a laundry list of similarities. Yet you claim "not even
close." Are you watching the same films?
It's an odd-looking wave, Barb. It's understandable that it would
draw attention since it's so close to his gunshot reaction. My bet is
that they didn't notice how similar these two films are, if they even
examined the clip in question. I have no idea how anyone can look at
these two films and conclude that his actions in one indicate a
gunshot, and indicate nothing at all in the other. They are far too
similar to reach that conclusion, imo.
>
>> I think they were dead wrong in claiming that Kennedy was
>>evidencing a reaction at Z200. I also think some of the things you're
>>putting forth to back up a shot at 190 crumble under scrutiny. :-)
>
>Well, you're entitled to your opinion. Care to tell me what you've
>scrutinized and lay out the crumbs? :-)
Besides the above? ;-) Two things off the top of my head are your
claim that Jackie is looking at JFK as they emerge from behind the
sign. I'm afraid the Z film, when looked at in detail, contradicts
that notion. Also, your use of Jackie's testimony to back up that
claim fails scrutiny. I can post the details of what the Z film
shows, if you like. I think I've already made you aware of that
problem, though.
-Venem
DRoberdeau
>In a newsgroup post of May 4, 2001, Don Roberdeau utilizes eyewitness Ernest
>Carl Brandt (http://www.jfk-tour.com/) to buttress the theory that a shot
>struck President Kennedy at about frame 190 of the Zapruder film.
.... actually, to be accurate, what I posted about was that based on
BRANDT’s own words, *his* position of President KENNEDY was Zf-194-195 when
BRANDT estimated the President was impacted with the first of three audible
muzzle blasts that BRANDT has repeatedly said that he heard; not Zf-190.
>I have
>exchanged a few letters with Mr. Brandt, who disagrees strongly with
>Roberdeau's assessment.
....which means BRANDT also disagrees with the observations of some of his
attack co-witnesses, that Dreitze’s has, for some reason, decided to snip out
their support....
....here’s what Dreitze’s, for some strange reason, decided to shortly
snip, and only snip, from my original post.... can you reason why he decided to
do that? I wonder if Dreitze’s sent BRANDT my complete post?
(the street lanes were 13' between the white stripes)
Now let's compare BRANDT's statement to above mentioned witness quotes from
THOMPSON's "SSID" (pgs 252-271):
CHISM...."1st shot, car infront of or just past him; 2nd shot, just after 2 men
in front seat looked back"
HICKS.... "1st shot car directly in front of where she was standing"
WESTBROOK...."Car almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard
the first explosion"
So, the observation on the above mentioned site by BRANDT is in unison with
WESTBROOK, HICKS and CHISM, who were also standing nearby.
>
>
> BRANDT said he heard 3 audible muzzle blasts.
>
> BRANDT said that the first audible muzzle blast most definately [sic]
>impacted the President.
>
> According to BRANDT, the President was just past BRANDT when the first
>audible muzzle blast was fired, and impacted.
>
> My calculations show that a one o'clock position past BRANDT . . . was
>(facing perpendicular to the street flow) approximately 2' past BRANDT, and
>15'
>away, put President KENNEDYat Zf-194-195.
.... of course, the most important esimate provided by BRANDT, of the two
estimates, is the 15' away estimate....
....but BRANDT does say audible muzzle blast #1 impacted, just after the
President passed BRANDT, and, by inference, there was no audible muzzle blast
before the President passed BRANDT.... please remember that....
....okay, so 15’ is BRANDT’s estimate.... let’s examine that 15’
estimate in a couple different lights.... if the 15’ away when the President
was at Zf-194-195 is innacurate, how far from BRANDT was the President at other
Z-frames?....
....Well, at Zf-190, the President was about 4’ earlier in his track along
Elm Street, and about 13.5’ away, and PAST BRANDT, in about a 12:30 position;
a difference from BRANDT’s estimate of only 10%.... which is very close to
BRANDT’s estimates....
....But....
....at Zf-223 President KENNEDY’s location in Elm Street is 11’ further
west on Elm, and the President is now 24’ away from BRANDT, which is 60%
further than BRANDT’s estimate....
....so....
....at 190 BRANDT’s estimate is 10% off; at 223 BRANDT’s estimate is 60%
off.period. Which is more likely? ....
>
>Now, the statement of mine about JFK getting hit in the BACK of the neck (at
>the BASE of his neck) in frames (or ABOUT frames) 208-210 is also my GUESS!!
>We
>all know that the speed of the camera was 18.3 frames per second & I have no
>way of determining EXACTLY which frame is the VERY LAST FRAME showing JFK
>before he slips behind the "leading" edge of the sign!! And the camera speed
>is
>a factor because even if JFK is hit at, say, frame #200, in only ONE SECOND
>the
>film is at frame #218.3 [sic]!!! So it is really anyone's guess as to which
>frame in the "Z" film was (or is) the PRECISE FRAME in which JFK received the
>neck shot -- especially since he appears to be OKAY & UNHIT prior to moving
>behind the sign!! It is very obvious, to me at least, that JFK has been hit
>when he emerges from BEHIND the sign in frame #225 with his hands rising to
>his
>face/mouth area -- because that is EXACTLY what I saw -- except JFK was
>SLIGHTLY PAST me so I saw his arm-raising action from his RIGHT-REAR, while
>Mr.
>"Z" was situated at JFK's right front!!! I have written Gerald Posner to
>inform
>him of his error about the FIRST shot hitting a tree limb & missing JFK!!! I
>am
>confident that the FIRST shot hit JFK in the neck!!
....and there it is.... no matter what else, THIS is BRANDT’s most important
contribution because he has always maintained the first audible shot impacted
President KENNEDY when the President was PAST him. Additionally, BRANDT heard
another shot AFTER the President's arms raised to chin level with elbows
splayed, then he turned around and dashed to the small tree 12’ behind him (2
seconds later?; 3 seconds?, 4, 5 seconds to turn and dash 12’?), and, a
third shot, also, BEFORE he got to this tree (see below).... adding weight to
the "last 2 shots bunched closer than the first 2 shots" majority of sequenced
scenario witnesses.... but, above all else, the President was slightly PAST
BRANDT when the 1st of 3 audible shots impacted-when BRANDT was looking
directly at the P.O.T.U.S., and THAT, alone, in BRANDT’s view, invalidates
the *magic-limbed-ricochet-tree* for shot #1 because Zframe 162 occurred BEFORE
the President passed BRANDT.... in fact, some 29’ (twenty-nine feet) to
BRANDT’s left at Zf-162.... another question that BRANDT's observations
brings to light is, after BRANDT's first audible muzzle blast/first
impact/first JFK reaction, at what Zframe did the second audible muzzle blast
occur while BRANDT was running for the tree? (if we conclude, as most witnesses
did, that the third audible muzzle blast was concurrent with the mortal
headshot)
....I might also add here, as BRANDT mentions below, that BRANDT's estimate of
the tree he ran to being at a 12' distance away from him is, EXACTLY,
correct....
>
>In conclusion, Mr. Roberdeau's statement about the "1 o'clock" position
....again, BRANDT made the estimate of 1 o'clock, and BRANDT made the 15'
estimate.... I made the 2' past an imaginary line calculation from BRANDT
perpendicular to limo's travel based on BRANDT's observations....
>putting
>JFK "ABOUT" 2' PAST ME & 15 feet away is not accurate in my opinion.
....surprise, surprise.... when faced with the realities of his own words, and
the interactive physical locations of he and the President according to HIS own
statements, not mine, BRANDT now sings a different song. Dave, this is very
misleading on your part, and makes me wonder exactly what you chose to write
BRANDT, as you know full well that it was BRANDT’s estimate of the 1
o’clock position, and it is BRANDT’s estimate of 15’ away-as I posted his
letter word-for-word as he wrote it to me....
>I have
>never even attempted to estimate the "STRAIGHT-LINE" distance from me to JFK
>at
>the FIRST shot!! Please study the enclosed map & you will get a reasonably
>accurate idea of my "spot" & JFK's too.
>
>Enough for now. Reply if you wish.
>
>(signed) Ernest Brandt
>
>PS.
>
>David --
>
>I rambled so much in the letter I failed to mention that I am TOTALLY &
>COMPLETELY convinced that Oswald acted ALONE -- NO HELP FROM ANYONE.
....like AH’s, everyone has an opinion.... BRANDT’s words now seem
maleable, or was suggested to him to be maleable, when faced with the physical
realities of his own estimates....
>
>My 37 1/2 years of off & on research has failed to indicate to me that
>ANYBODY
>else was involved!
>
>[...]
>
>(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
>Mr. Brandt also enclosed a copy of the Charles Bronson photograph believed to
>coincide approximately with Zapruder frames 220-225 (according to Richard
>Trask, Pictures of the Pain, p. 285). On this photograph Brandt indicated his
>position as well as that of the President and Abraham Zapruder (see file
>attachment).
....First off that specific BRONSON photo was taken at Zf-226, not
“220-225” (have you corrected him on that?) At 226 the President was 27’
away from BRANDT, almost double his 15’ estimate....
>On the reverse of the photo, Brandt writes:
>
>
>(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>David --
>
>You can see me with my WHITE SHIRT in view & JFK SLIGHTLY PAST ME!! This
>photo
>was taken REALLY CLOSE to the moment of the FIRST SHOT!!!! Perhaps even at
>the
>SAME INSTANT of that FIRST ONE!!!!
>
>I KNOW, repeat, KNOW that JFK was JUST ABOUT at this spot when that FIRST
>shot
>was fired & you too can see that he was CLOSE to a "1 o'clock" position in
>relation to me on the curb!!!!
....okay, so even if BRANDT’s original estimate of 15’ and a 1 o’clock
position when audible #1 impacted are wrong, this is still the FIRST OF THREE
audible muzzle blasts that BRANDT said he heard.... which of course speaks
VOLUMES.... are you grasping what BRANDT is saying, yet?
>
>(signed) Ernest Brandt
>
>(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
>In a subsequent letter to me (which, due to its subject matter, will be the
>subject of a separate post), dated July 14, 2001, Brandt added:
>
>
>(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>I suggest you re-read & analyze the info on page 133 in PICTURES OF THE PAIN
>.
>. . THAT INFO CORRELATES CLOSELY WITH MY EXPERIENCE AND THE RESULTS OF MY 37
>1/2 years of research!!!!!
>
>(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
>Here is the relevant passage in Trask, pp. 133:
>
>
>(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>The first suspicious movement seen in the President's reaction is at
>approximately Z200, when Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze and his right
>hand
>abruptly stops in the middle of a waving motion. His head also rapidly moves
>from the right to- ward his wife on his left. By the time Kennedy disappears
>behind the sign at Z207, the panel found, ". . . he is evidencing some kind
>of
>reaction to a severe external stimulus," and emerges from behind the sign at
>Z225 clearly having been shot. So too, Connally's movements as he emerges
>from
>behind the sign at Z222-Z224 indicates he is also reacting to severe external
>stimulus. He is frowning and his shoulders and upper trunk are rigid. A rapid
>change in his facial expression and his head movement follow.
>
>(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
....read that again, and keep in mind the magic-limbed-ricochet-tree* obscurred
the President from anyone’s view in the SL until frame Zf-207 and
afterward....
“The first suspicious movement seen in the President's reaction is at
approximately Z200, when Kennedy's movements SUDDENLY FREEZE and his right hand
ABRUPTLY STOPS in the middle of a waving motion. His head also RAPIDLY moves
from the right toward his wife on his left. BY THE TIME Kennedy disappears
behind the sign at Z207, the panel found, ". . . he is evidencing some kind of
reaction to a SEVERE EXTERNAL STIMULUS,"
>
>
>These statements should end any speculation that eyewitness Ernest Carl
>Brandt
>places a shot in the vicinity of Zapruder frame 190. "I'd stake my life on
>the
>fact that that is not true," Brandt says.
again, here is BRANDT’s words and emphasis in a hand-written, 2000 letter to
me. Notice the very first two estimates BRANDT chose to write, and he decided
to emphacise, in his letter :
<QUOTE>
President Kennedy was about 15 feet from me when the FIRST SHOT WAS
FIRED!!! He was SLIGHTLY PAST ME at a "ONE O'CLOCK POSITION" in relation to my
location on the NORTH SIDE of the Elm street curb.
My observation of JFK's re-action to the FIRST SHOT (I WAS STILL LOOKING
AT HIM) was that he INSTANTLY RAISED HIS ARMS (ACTUALLY I COULD ONLY SEE HIS
RIGHT ARM)-(HIS BODY + HEAD OBSCURRED MY VIEW OF HIS LEFT ARM) - TO A
POSITION PARALLELWITH THE GROUND, BUT BENT AT THE ELBOW. MY CLOSE SCRUTINY of
the "Z" film tells me that JFK is
apparently UNHIT prior to passing behind the highway sign, but, of course, his
arms are moving UPWARD as he emerges from behind the sign.
Pg 2 - JFK letter
I SEEM TO RECALL JFK WAS CASUALLY WAVING to the very sparse crowd in
Dealey Plaza as he approached my location. My feeling is that he was hit in the
neck at about frame #208 to #210 in the "Z" film + that is only a FRACTION of a
second AFTER HE DISAPPEARED BEHIND the sign - or possibly at the VERY INSTANT
of moving behind the "LEADING EDGE" of the SIGN!!!
Gerald Posner thinks (his book, "Case Closed") that the FIRST SHOT hit a
tree limb and missed JFK, but, I disagree EMPHATICALLY. I am TOTALLY CONVINCED
the FIRST SHOT HIT JFK in the back of the lower neck!!! Hence his reason for
raising his hands up to his face - HE WAS HIT in the NECK + his IMMEDIATE
RESPONSE WAS TO GO TO THAT GENERAL AREA WITH HIS HANDS!!!
The FIRST SHOT WAS, I THOUGHT, A POLICE MOTORCYCLE BACKFIRE - (MY
CUSTOMER WITH ME THOUGHT THE SAME)
AND AS JFK RAISED HIS ARMS I THOUGHT HE HAD ALSO HEARD the BACKFIRE + WAS
PLAYFULLY RE-ACTING to it!!!
STRANGE THOUGHTS BUT, AN ASSASSINATION of the PRESIDENT of the U.S. WAS
CERTAINLY THE LEAST LIKELY THING IN THE WORLD TO OCCUR!!!
Pg 3 - JFK letter
WHEN the 2nd shot occurred, it was the time I realized that SHOTS were
being fired!!! and FEAR GRABBED ME QUICKLY!!! MY HEART BEGAN TO "POND"!!! I
KNEW SHOTS WERE BEING FIRED BUT HAD NO IDEA AT ALL FROM WHERE!!! (MY CUSTOMER**
DIDN'T KNOW EITHER) So I LOOKED BEHIND ME FOR A PLACE TO RUN - ABOUT A DOZEN
FEET DIRECTLY BEHIND ME WAS A "LONE" TREE - + I RAN QUICKLY TO THAT TREE!!!
ONCE THERE I FELT A LITTLE MEASURE OF SECURITY!!! I REALLY CANNOT TELL YOU THE
DISTANCE BETWEEN ME + JFK WHEN THE 2ND SHOT WAS FIRED FOR THE ABOVE REASON.
WHEN AT THE TREE I IMMEDIATELY GLANCED DOWN ELM STREET TOWARD THE TRIPLE
UNDERPASS! THE JFK "LIMO"
WAS CLOSE TO THE UNDERPASS + IT WAS OVER - THE SHOOTING HAD STOPPED - (THE
THIRD SHOT WAS FIRED AS I RAN FOR THE TREE) - THE "LIMO'S" TAIL LITES WERE "ON"
WHICH TOLD ME THE DRIVER (GREER) HAD HIS FOOT ON THE BRAKES + THEN BLACK SMOKE
SPEWED FROM THE EXHAUST PIPE + THE "LIMO" SPED OFF IN A SUDDEN BURST OF SPEED +
IT WAS ALL OVER!!!
<QUOTE.off>
( **=my insertion: BRANDT's customer standing next to him was JOHN TEMPLIN )
IMHO, witnesses WESTBROOK, HICKS, BRANDT and CHISM (as well as other persons)
seem to confirm that the first audible-muzzle-blast, or,
silenced-muzzle-blast-audible-bullet-shockwave, that THEY can positively say
that THEY heard, occurred circa Zf-195, which also, just coincidentally,
happens to be in unison with President KENNEDY's unusual movements as he passes
behind the SFS sign from ZAPRUDER's camera view. At Z-195, as we all know, the
*magic-limbed-ricochet-tree* obscurred the TSBD.se.6 snipers lair view of
President KENNEDY. Intelligence agency, and military
department speaking.... now, as from the 1940's onward, there are muzzle blasts
heard, and, there are silenced-muzzle-blasts not heard.... especially if they
are also triggered with a muzzle end within a nearly enclosed space.
Don CV-67, "Big John," USS John F. Kennedy Plank Walker
"Unless you feel otherwise, Jim [Angleton] would prefer to wait out the
Commission on the matter...."
----CIA internal memo to RICHARD HELMS (Chief of CIA Counter-Intelligence
Division) about wc.group requests about OSWALD's Mexico City activities. ("Last
Investigation," by FONZI, p210)
>Dave
DRoberdeau
" 's, so here is the rewrite to correct it for clarity
....But....
....so....
>
>Now, the statement of mine about JFK getting hit in the BACK of the neck=
malleable, or was suggested to him to be malleable, when faced with the
>stimulus. He is frowning and his shoulders and upper trunk are rigid. A =
rapid
>change in his facial expression and his head movement follow.
>
>(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
....read that again, and keep in mind the magic-limbed-ricochet-tree* obscurred
the President from anyone=E2=80=99s view in the SL until frame Zf-207 and
afterward....
<QUOTE>
<QUOTE.off>
( ** = my insertion: BRANDT's customer standing next to him was JOHN TEMPLIN )
DRoberdeau
....note that BRANDT, like anyone else I am aware of, never makes the
observation that President KENNEDY was leaning forward then back to straight,
or, within 1 second quickly leaned forward then back to sitting erect, when the
President was impacted with an audible muzzle blast while leaning forward.
.... Given the slightly anatomically upward trajectory path within the
President's neck, and, given the 3 degree downward-forward slope of Elm Street,
and, given a similarly slightly downward angle of the limo in the back-many
warren-group believers have to have the President leaning forward some 18 to 24
degrees at the instant of their "magic bullet."
.... As anyone can see, the President is sitting erect and already displaying
reactions in his face and hands at Zf-225, a mere 0.10 neurological second
after Zf-223.
For anyone who has never tried it, I suggest speaking with any neurologist
and/or neurosurgeon about how long it takes a persons neurological system to
react and start a physical reaction to an external stimulus.... tell them
afterwards your interest is based on President KENNEDY's assassination if you
want an unbiased answer.
Don
CV-67, "Big John," USS John F. Kennedy Plank Walker
"I don't think the people are going to believe this ---
this year,
next year,
or a hundred years from now....
This thing will be challenged today,
tomorrow,
and forever."
-SPECTER to his Philadelphia employer, about the
*magic bullet theory*, SEP64
Dave Reitzes
[big snip]
>....but BRANDT does say audible muzzle blast #1 impacted, just after the
>President passed BRANDT, and, by inference, there was no audible muzzle blast
>before the President passed BRANDT.... please remember that....
I suspect some people are in for a bit of a surprise . . . \:^)
Dave
[...]
R2JUDGE
From: drobe...@aol.com (DRoberdeau)
Date: 7/31/01 10:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <20010731125553...@ng-co1.aol.com>
***Don, i agree with you that there was no shot fired prior to the time
that the limo passed Brandt. However, Kennedy's arms spring up
instantaneously from Z225 onward. Kennedy's arms would not be
instantaneously springing up at Z225 if he was shot circa Z195. As for
how long it takes someone to respond to external stimulus, it is obvious
to me that Connaly was shot between frames Z223-24. His hat pops up in the
side window the very next frame- Z225. At Z224, Kennedy's left arm is
down at his side and is starting to move upward at Z225. At Z226,
Kennedy's hands are rapidly moving to his throat and Connally's hat has
jumped up higher from his lap.
I see no delay in the reactions of both men to being shot.
***Ron Judge
John Hill
news:20010804174136...@mb-mg.aol.com...
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, Ron. The Zfilm doesn't show when
they were shot (either together or separately). It only shows their
reaction to being shot. None of us knows if their reaction was truely
instantaneous or not. The reaction time could have been zero. It could
have been 1/10 second or 1/2. No one knows.
--
John Hill (joisa)