The Rifle Sling--A reason for all things.

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TEmptyPockets

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Jan 15, 2004, 5:00:26 PM1/15/04
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And the answer is: To carry the weapon!

To date, several questions related to the C2766/CE# 139 have been asked.
If recalled correctly, the photo of LHO with the alledged weapon shows a rope
sling similar to that of John Wilkes Booth.

When recovered at the TSDB, the rifle had a leather sling which also included a
shoulder pad. This sling has been determined to have been military issue (Army
Air Corps/AF) for a shoulder holster for carrying a pistol.

Any researcher can attend enough gun shown until such time as he will find one
of these for sale as I have. There are quite a few of the identical shoulder
straps with pistol case still out there in military surplus.

However, this is not the point.

"Military minded" persons would "know" that the shoulder pad should be located
up near the barrell/sling swivel were one to carry the rifle in standard "sling
arms" position.

Now, as recovered, C2766/CE# 149 had the should pad installed near the middle
to lower one-half of the rifle, nearer to the stock.

Those of us who were sufficiently ignorant enough to exit perfectly good
aircraft, happen to know that the rifle is carred in an upside down version of
"sling arms" in order to prevent the protruding barrell from becoming entangled
in the parachute suspension lines.

This also happens to be true for those select few who were beyond
ignorant(extremely stupid) and jumped in Military Free Fall parachuting with
combat equipment.

The shoulder pad as mounted on C2766/CE# 139 is done so in such a manner that
the weapon can be carried at an upside down version of "sling arms".

Due to the location of this pad, this weapon could have been easily carried
with the butt of the stock under the armpit and the rifle down by the side of
the body/leg.

By wearing a raincoat and/or trench coat, this weapon could be carried around
the streets and never have been seen.

Try it, you may like it!

Hey Chad, give us a picture on your site.

Tom P


Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 15, 2004, 9:39:49 PM1/15/04
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Tom,

Thanks for the insight. But....

BOOTH shot Lincoln with a DERRINGER. I posted a link for you previously in
this tread somewhere. Take a look. I sure would like to see this "Sling"
you keep posting. Are you talking about the Sling for the Spencer Carbine
he had when he was captured?


> This also happens to be true for those select few who were beyond
> ignorant(extremely stupid) and jumped in Military Free Fall parachuting with
> combat equipment.

I always felt I made the right choice when I went became a "Screaming
Eagle" with the 101st Airborne. How many plane crashes are there compared
to how many shoots failing.? I'd rather jump from the plane than land in
one. I had 13 jumps. (Stayed up all night writhing letters for that one)
:-))

Military Free Fall? If you are talking about if I had to pay for each
jump, I agree as it was on the house, so to speak. In fact, I got paid an
extra $55 per month. But, if you are talking about the jump itself, no way
was it a free fall. Static line. In combat the jump is only some 350'-450'
tops. You only get one chance. No reserve. Also, the plane would be in
somewhat of a downward flight position as then the last man out would be
in line with the first man out. The only problem was that the Air Force
was notorious for missing the drop zones. Happened on a few of my jumps.

I once caught what is called an "UPDRAFT" where you can stay up for quite
awhile. You just hang there. Almost got an Article 15 for that one.

Glenn

"TEmptyPockets" <tempty...@aol.com> wrote in message
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>
> And the answer is: To carry the weapon!
>
> To date, several questions related to the C2766/CE# 139 have been asked.
> If recalled correctly, the photo of LHO with the alledged weapon shows a rope
> sling similar to that of John Wilkes Booth.
>
> When recovered at the TSDB, the rifle had a leather sling which also included a
> shoulder pad. This sling has been determined to have been military issue (Army
> Air Corps/AF) for a shoulder holster for carrying a pistol.
>
> Any researcher can attend enough gun shown until such time as he will find one
> of these for sale as I have. There are quite a few of the identical shoulder
> straps with pistol case still out there in military surplus.

TEmptyPockets

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Jan 15, 2004, 11:57:45 PM1/15/04
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>Sling for the Spencer Carbine
>he had when he was captured?
>

Correct!

Tom Purvis
82nd Abn Division
173rd Abn Bde
3rd Special Forces Group
5th Special Forces Group
6th Special Forces Group
Special Forces Schools
a. CO Advanced Airborne Committee
b. CO Static Line Jumpmaster Committee
c. C0 Underwater Operation Committee

Para-Scuba qualified. Trained and supervised instructions to Brazilian
Special Forces in Scuba/Para Scuba.
President, 2nd Infantry Division Sport Parachute Club (South Korea)
Master Wings and HALO Instructor.
Highest Jump 29,700 feet

High Altitude Low Opening (HALO) also known as Military Free Fall
Parachuting.

Insertion technique for Special Forces Operations.

Tom P

The Air Force puts you out where the onboard jumpmaster designates and/or
where the ground panels indicate. Nice to blame it on the Airforce, just
not necessarily the facts.

Original "static line" jumping was from 1250 feet high. This was in order
to give adequate time to deploy a reserve if needed.

With the development of the mesh around the lower skirting of parachutes,
malfunctions became almost non-existent in static line jumping.
Therefore the new and lower altutude which left less exposure time in the
air. Had heard that the reserve was also officially deleted as there was
no need for it.

Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 16, 2004, 9:02:59 AM1/16/04
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Tom,

In regards to a previous posted reply to you. I hope this makes it before
you reply to my last. Military Free Fall.....Me DUH!!!! Me Just sufficiently
stupid to exit. Never considered the 'Beyond ignorant'. It just dawned on
me. You are right. Only for the Extremely stupid. Beyond ignorant :-))
But I'm not quite sure about the combat part. This would have occurred other
than immediate combat when landing. And most definitely would have occurred
for the most part at night. If I am talking about what I think now you are
talking about. :-))

I also know, you and I might be thinking along the same lines in regards to
a possibility of the true purpose of that SLING setup. That sling has always
bothered me in regards to various testimony and photos and hence the purpose
of my original post.

Glenn

"TEmptyPockets" <tempty...@aol.com> wrote in message
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>

Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 16, 2004, 7:56:28 PM1/16/04
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Tom,

I'm really surprised nobody is reading or replying to these threads about
the sling. I had lunch today from someone in this group and mentioned what
this is all about. He did raise his eyebrows in interest. I really thought
CT's would catch on to it.

Glenn


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>

TEmptyPockets

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Jan 16, 2004, 10:37:49 PM1/16/04
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>Glenn
>

In event you have not observed it, there is massive "tunnel vision" on
this subject.

Researchers get "hung up" on some little quirk or detail and then are
oblivious to all other surrounding items.

This is why the "play the game" on the the Bennett post.

Until they take apart each and every item of the WC evidence and
testimony, they will continue to chase whatever.

Also, many are attempting to write their own definitive tell all books and
tend to sit back and attempt to absorb rather than become active
participants.

I have observed hours of continious postings as relates to some subject so
trivial that even if one side or the other could prove their argument, it
would prove nothing as relates to the assassination.

More of an "I'm right and he's wrong" competition than attempting to
resolve the issues.

Through one means or another, over some period of time, I have attempted
to steer serious researchers towards the truth and facts in this matter.

Unless they are lurkers, it has not born fruit to date of my knowledge.

Tom P

banwllm5

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Jan 19, 2004, 12:23:45 AM1/19/04
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>To date, several questions related to the C2766/CE# 139 have been asked.
>If recalled correctly, the photo of LHO with the alledged weapon shows a rope
>sling similar to that of John Wilkes Booth.

Struck me as looking like a sling for an M-1 Carbine: note apparent
"flap" past the sling swivel in front and knot at the fixed post in the
rear stock.

***********

>C2766/CE# 149 had the should pad installed near the middle
>to lower one-half of the rifle, nearer to the stock.

Once saw a hunting technique in which sling pad was used to carry the
rifle upside down, barrel forward. This allowed weapon to the shoulder
without losing sight of the target.

*****************

>The shoulder pad as mounted on C2766/CE# 139 is done so in such a manner that
>the weapon can be carried at an upside down version of "sling arms".
>
>Due to the location of this pad, this weapon could have been easily carried
>with the butt of the stock under the armpit and the rifle down by the side of
>the body/leg.
>

Could be accomplished for urban purposes--short time, that is--with an
ordinary sling. If pad were needed, why not just wrap rags or whatever
around the sling? Could you offer an estimate on how long the sling
conversion would have taken to accomplish and whether the job was done by
a leather shop?

Good imagaination to see a sling in the semi-shoulder holster, but why not
just buy a sling for an M-1 Rifle with a, uh, "clip" at each end.

>By wearing a raincoat and/or trench coat, this weapon could be carried around
>the streets and never have been seen.
>

As long as there is no sitting or jostling.

Bill B

TEmptyPockets

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Jan 19, 2004, 11:42:27 AM1/19/04
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>Struck me as looking like a sling for an M-1 Carbine: note apparent
>"flap" past the sling swivel in front and knot at the fixed post in the
>rear stock.

If it is recalled correctly, this issue is discussed in a book which looks at
the parallel's/similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy. In this book is shown
a photo of John Wilks Booth holding a rifle with a rope sling. This in turn is
compared to the Oswald photo.

It also seems that there is some WC testimony as regards the sling in the photo
of Oswald. Perhaps this was discussed by Shaneyfelt. Just do not recall.

> Could you offer an estimate on how long the sling
>conversion would have taken to accomplish and whether the job was done by
>a leather shop?

Not certain that I fully understand this. There was no "sling conversion".
The sling, as recovered, consisted of the shoulder strap harness and pad for an
Army Air Corps/AF issue shoulder holster pistol. The shoulder holster had been
removed and the strap and pad utilized for the sling.

The sling could have just as easily been installed with the longer strap at the
butt of the rifle, thereby placing the pad up nearer the barrell in a position
that would be considered as a normal location for carrying a rifle at sling
arms.

It was not installed this way. Therefore, one must assume there is some reason
that an experienced person with a rifle and sling would install it the way it
was done on the Carcano.

These WWII through Korean Conflict slings were and are still quite common
within the military surplus systems. I have found two complete ones and one
partial with no pad at gun shows.

As one who sometimes plays the slots on the coast, I would be willing to wager
that find where the sling was sold and one may also find where the ammo and
clip was acquired.

While on this subject, has anyone seen the ammo boxes that the FBI recovered at
a gravel pit in Arlington??

Tom P

AnthonyMarsh

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Jan 19, 2004, 3:31:15 PM1/19/04
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Oswald? You must be joking. He was so cheap. His first sling was a rope.
He would not spend $15 on a fancy sling when he spent only $20 for the
rifle. I doubt that he bought more than one box of ammo, which explains
why he was down to only 4 rounds by 11/22/63.

> >By wearing a raincoat and/or trench coat, this weapon could be carried around
> >the streets and never have been seen.
> >
>
> As long as there is no sitting or jostling.
>

How did Oswald get the rifle out to Walker's house?

> Bill B


--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh

Martha

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Jan 20, 2004, 12:53:03 AM1/20/04
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Hi

According to WCR - 553-554: "The sling was not a standard rifle sling,
but appeared to be a musical instrument stap or a sling from a carrying
case or camera bag."

FBI Expert Frazier testified attempts to identify the sling was not
successful (3 H 397)

As to the sling in the backyard photo: FBI Expert Shaneyfelt had this to
say about the sling: ". . has the appearance of being a piece of rope
that is tied at both ends, rather than a leather sling, and it is my
opinion that it is a different sling than is presently on the rifle." (4 H
289)

Martha
"Glenn Sarlitto" <gsar...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
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Martha

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Jan 20, 2004, 12:53:33 AM1/20/04
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"AnthonyMarsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
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Marina testified Lee carried the rifle under his military raincoat.

Martha

Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 20, 2004, 10:09:53 AM1/20/04
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BILL,

"banwllm5" <banw...@aol.com> wrote in message
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> Once saw a hunting technique in which sling pad was used to carry the
> rifle upside down, barrel forward. This allowed weapon to the shoulder
> without losing sight of the target.


Yep. Quick too and Concealable Position also.


Glenn

Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 20, 2004, 10:10:13 AM1/20/04
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Ditto Tom,

CONCEALMENT PURPOSE OBVIOUS!!!

Great connection to Booth's Spencer.

Glenn


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Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 20, 2004, 10:10:44 AM1/20/04
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> How did Oswald get the rifle out to Walker's house?
>
> > Bill B

""""Marina testified Lee carried the rifle under his military raincoat."""
Martha

Thanks Martha. Tom asked that question a few days ago. I didn't know.
Now we both know. Just another diddy for the Walker incident and...........

CONCEALMENT tool.

Glenn

PS Guess you have been reading my Sling Thing after all. :-)


"Martha" <m...@comteck.com> wrote in message
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Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 20, 2004, 10:36:51 AM1/20/04
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Anthony,

GOOD INSIGHT!

Oswald? You must be joking. He was so cheap. His first sling was a rope.
> He would not spend $15 on a fancy sling when he spent only $20 for the
> rifle. I doubt that he bought more than one box of ammo, which explains
> why he was down to only 4 rounds by 11/22/63.

Glenn

TEmptyPockets

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Jan 20, 2004, 2:59:26 PM1/20/04
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>Marina testified Lee carried the rifle under his military raincoat.
>
>Martha

Thanks Martha, certainly missed that one.

All should know that a wealth of the needed data to put the pieces of this
puzzle together are in the WC.

Also believe there is a close-up photo of the pistol holster which LHO had.
Odds are that it is the holster which he removed from the shoulder
holster/belt/sling and wore on his regular belt in the photo.

Tom P

P.S. Thought I just sat around making these things up did you not?

Martha

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Jan 20, 2004, 9:19:28 PM1/20/04
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Something else to ponder - IF Marina was correct (Lee took the gun the
Sunday prior to the Wed shooting of Walker) and never mentioned him bringing
it back until the Saturday or Sunday following the shooting - I wonder if
Lee actually buried it as he told Marina. Now let's see: Buried on
Sunday - dug up on Wed night - buried after the shooting and dug up again on
Saturday or Sunday. Since a microscopic exam was made of the rifle by FBI -
ditto paper sack and blanket - one would think they would look for some
tiny bit of unkn soil. Then, again, maybe Oswald was the clean - mean -
machine. (Now if we could only find his cleaning materials.) Did he wrap the
rifle in his raincoat to bury it? Did he carry a brown paper bag to stick
the rifle in and bury? (just thought I would toss that in :) I wonder if he
carried a folding spade under that raincoat - along with everything else.

By the way - how would he manage to sit down on a bus seat? Or what would
have happened if he had dropped his money as he entered the bus?

Just some thoughts -

Martha


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AnthonyMarsh

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Jan 20, 2004, 11:01:22 PM1/20/04
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Martha wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> According to WCR - 553-554: "The sling was not a standard rifle sling,
> but appeared to be a musical instrument stap or a sling from a carrying
> case or camera bag."
>
> FBI Expert Frazier testified attempts to identify the sling was not
> successful (3 H 397)
>
> As to the sling in the backyard photo: FBI Expert Shaneyfelt had this to
> say about the sling: ". . has the appearance of being a piece of rope
> that is tied at both ends, rather than a leather sling, and it is my
> opinion that it is a different sling than is presently on the rifle." (4 H
> 289)
>

It was Dr. John Lattimer who figured out what the sling was.

Martha

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Jan 21, 2004, 1:00:33 AM1/21/04
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Hi Tony

What surprises me about Lattimer/Leon find in '75 - that an FBI expert
would not have come to the same conclusion. I presume Lattimer checked out
the sling at Archives.

Martha


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Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 22, 2004, 2:46:16 PM1/22/04
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Anthony,

"It was Dr. John Lattimer who figured out what the sling was."


What did Lattimer figure out regarding the sling? Could you expand?
Is his study online...or do I have to fork out big bucks to get?

Thanks,

Glenn

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Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 22, 2004, 2:46:29 PM1/22/04
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Martha,

"By the way - how would he manage to sit down on a bus seat? "

Easy with a raincoat. Just don't sit down.

"Or what would
> have happened if he had dropped his money as he entered the bus?"

That's when he'd say...."OOPS"

What is to say he took a bus. How about a cab? Hitch a ride? Walk? Who
knows?

Glenn

PS This is fun playing Sinister Concealment with a real body instead of
SHADOWS, isn't it?

"Martha" <ma...@comteck.com> wrote in message
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TEmptyPockets

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Jan 22, 2004, 9:18:39 PM1/22/04
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>Is his study online...or do I have to fork out big bucks to get?
>

If you can find the book, fork it over as the book is well worth reading.
It is the forerunner of someone else starting to conduct their own
ballistic testing.

Tom P

TEmptyPockets

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Jan 22, 2004, 9:19:11 PM1/22/04
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Martha;

At risk of starting additional theories, WHAT IF"

Were I to walk around with a STIFF Carcano, in my pants/under my raincoat,
most probably, I would get a cane and walk with it as if I had a leg
injury or good ole "war story" injury/wooden leg.

Did you ever notice that we do not pay much attention to someone walking
stiff-legged if they have a cane?

Now, the raincoat issue has been found, anyone want to try for a walking
cane?

Tom P

AnthonyMarsh

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Jan 22, 2004, 9:28:03 PM1/22/04
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Glenn Sarlitto wrote:
>
> Anthony,
>
> "It was Dr. John Lattimer who figured out what the sling was."
>
> What did Lattimer figure out regarding the sling? Could you expand?
> Is his study online...or do I have to fork out big bucks to get?
>

Big bucks. Maybe even $20. It is hard to find even at a bargain book
store. What you should do is see if there is an online library search
engine for your area and then ask your local library to borrow it for you.
If you get lucky you might find someone who can scan in that page for you.
I am not sure if the information is in any of his articles as well. Could
be. I'll look.

Martha

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Jan 23, 2004, 12:11:01 AM1/23/04
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Hey Glenn

Dr. Lattimer even has his own C-2766 Mannlicher Carcano. Now that is kind
of special IMO and worth the bucks.

Martha


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Martha

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Jan 23, 2004, 12:11:30 AM1/23/04
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Maybe somebody did take him to Walker's house. I find it difficult to
believe the gun was buried three days prior to his potshot at Walker - the
reburied for three days following. If you have ever been out to the Walker
home - you will know what I mean.

Martha
"Glenn Sarlitto" <gsar...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message

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Martha

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Jan 23, 2004, 12:11:47 AM1/23/04
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Sounds pretty good. But Lordy who really knows.

M


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Glenn Sarlitto

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Jan 23, 2004, 11:57:08 AM1/23/04
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Martha,

If you have ever been out to the Walker
> home - you will know what I mean.

I've seen pics, but very few. And it has been awhile. Wooded Lot?
Can you describe for us? Surrounding area?

Thanks, Glenn

"Martha" <ma...@comteck.com> wrote in message

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Martha

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Jan 24, 2004, 12:57:00 AM1/24/04
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From the photos in WC - it would appear to be out at the edge of town or a
clearing. Actually the home was/is in an upscale neighborhood and
residential area. Beautiful and imposing. Other houses are quite near.
Empty lot beside the house where I suppose the church was located - it is
hard to tell after 40 years.

Ken Holmes took us out there. He used to visit sometimes with General
Walker. He knew I was totally surprised at what I was seeing.

Same thing when I first saw the Paine home in Irving. I had viewed the
pictures in books and WC volumes - but until you actually see it you
realize you had never seen it before - if you understand what I am saying.

Martha

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banwllm5

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Jan 26, 2004, 12:26:09 AM1/26/04
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>Also believe there is a close-up photo of the pistol holster which LHO had.
>Odds are that it is the holster which he removed from the shoulder
>holster/belt/sling and wore on his regular belt in the photo.
>
>Tom P

Holster photo is apparently CE 144; there is a good picture on page 248 of
WITH MALICE. Not milspec, but curious yet. This is a used field holster
for a medium frame snub, no common item. Albert Newman suggested our boy
bought this at a gun show and that was the reason that shoulder holster
was crossed out on the Trader's order form.

Bill B

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