British-made .45 caliber De Lisle Silent Carbine

[HONOR flight 93]

Right from the start my position is that during the assassination shots I
do not believe that 1978 first publicly self-claimed DP witness Gordon
Arnold was actually an eyewitness who stood near the GK stockade fence.

While checking the following video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3NJojH4r9c with respect to the WWII
made (and now also still available in reproductions) British-made .45
caliber De Lisle Silent Carbine, I was very impressed with how really
substantially "silent" that rifle truly is compared to similar caliber
rifles.

I then also recalled how in 1988's "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" Gordon
Arnold described and simultaneously hands-illustrated the rifle he saw the
crying GK assassin/"policeman" holding during his encounter was "big
around" in its barrel width girth; much wider in barrel width to rifle
stock sizes of similar caliber-sized rifles. Exactly like the De Lisle
Silent Carbine.

Additional photos and schematics for the De Lisle Silent Carbine:

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Untitled5.jpg

(schematic) http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3816/silencers03buk0.jpg

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/100_6180.jpg

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/valkyriearmscommando13.jpg

http://www.rrrc.co.uk/images/pic7.jpg

(schematic) http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/deliseplans3.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/2/20/De_Lisle_Carbine_Folding_Stock.jpg/450px-De_Lisle_Carbine_Folding_Stock.jpg

http://www.valkyriearms.com/images/delisle1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xrCBa.jpg

(schematic) http://www.exordinanza.net/foto/delisle/patent.jpg

[mainframetech]

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 2:49:37 PM UTC-4, HONOR flight 93 wrote:
> Right from the start my position is that during the assassination shots I
> do not believe that 1978 first publicly self-claimed DP witness Gordon
> Arnold was actually an eyewitness who stood near the GK stockade fence.
>

A shame. Now you'll have to argue with one of the witnesses that saw
Arnold, and also saw him 'hit the dirt' when a shot went over his head
from behind the picket fence. That witness was Senator Ralph Yarborough
of Texas...:)

[stevemg...@yahoo.com]

Yarborough pointed out that when the shots were fired he was in the limo
with LBJ and couldn't possibly have seen anyone around the picket fence
since he was too far away.

Quote: "Remember where I [Yarborough] was in the motorcade -- with the
Johnsons too far back to have been able to see anyone [on the knoll] drop
to the ground when firing began."

[mainframetech]

It's true that Yarborough years later said that, but he was in the 4th
car, which was close behind the 2nd car which had JFK in it. Looking at a
mockup of the motorcade you'll see that it is not too far back to see
someone on the GK drop to the dirt when the shooting started. So he COULD
see Arnold at the picket fence, and it may have appeared to Yarborough as
a 'wall', which is the word he used when talking about the person hitting
the dirt. Why Yarborough wanted to get away from his statement about
Arnold? Perhaps he didn't want to be on the other side of the government
story of the murder.

Arnold was also seen by Gary Mack and co-worker following Arnold's
statement on video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_XZYWb4E6o


Of course the LNs really need to discredit Arnold's story, which proves
shots from the GK, so they will go to extremes to get rid of Arnold. In
his favor, Arnold never used his experience to gain fame or fortune, and
he never tried to gain attention other than to tell his story and go back
to his life.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

FYI, the grassy knoll shot was not subsonic It had a muzzle velocity of
2235 fps.

And what does 1978 have to do with Gordon Arnold? He first appeared on
The Men Who Killed Kennedy. I saw it at the Freedonia conference in 1991
and instantly while watching it told everyone it was a hoax.

[bigdog]

I guess if you are going to make up a shot, you get to declare what the
muzzle velocity was.

[claviger]

Problem is you're talking about a .45 cal bullet. The temple wound was
estimated .22-.25 cal wide. Gordon Arnold was a phony. His story kept
evolving to keep up with new developments.

[Anthony Marsh]

Pure nonsense. I always said there was a shot from the grassy knoll.
But I labeled Arnold a kook the moment I saw him on The Men Who Killed
Kennedy.

> Chris
>

[mainframetech]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 12:48:33 PM UTC-4, claviger wrote:
> On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 1:49:37 PM UTC-5, HONOR flight 93 wrote:
> > Right from the start my position is that during the assassination shots I
> > do not believe that 1978 first publicly self-claimed DP witness Gordon
> > Arnold was actually an eyewitness who stood near the GK stockade fence.
> >

The evidence suggests you're wrong. 2 photographic researchers
believed they saw Arnold on a photo they were working with and they were
on the same video further on. We also know that Senator Ralph Yarborough
saw a man in that area 'hitting the dirt' (which Arnold did) and
Yarborough thought it had to be a soldier who was well trained. He later
tried to back off from his sighting by saying that he was too far back in
his limo, but that wasn't true. He was in the 4th limo and JFK was in the
2nd. The limos were closer together after the first one passed. It may
be that Yarborough later realized he as giving proof to the Grassy Knoll
idea of a second shooter, which was strictly against the government
position of the 'lone gunman'.

Naturally, any LN will want the Gordon Arnold story to be false, since
it goes against the tired, old WCR.

> > While checking the following video
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3NJojH4r9c with respect to the WWII
> > made (and now also still available in reproductions) British-made .45
> > caliber De Lisle Silent Carbine, I was very impressed with how really
> > substantially "silent" that rifle truly is compared to similar caliber
> > rifles.
> >
> > I then also recalled how in 1988's "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" Gordon
> > Arnold described and simultaneously hands-illustrated the rifle he saw the
> > crying GK assassin/"policeman" holding during his encounter was "big
> > around" in its barrel width girth; much wider in barrel width to rifle
> > stock sizes of similar caliber-sized rifles. Exactly like the De Lisle
> > Silent Carbine.
> >

Arnold's menton of the size of the barrel gave me the impression he was
speaking figuratively. That the barrel appeared large because of the
danger it represented.

> > Additional photos and schematics for the De Lisle Silent Carbine:
> >
> > https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Untitled5.jpg
> >
> > (schematic) http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3816/silencers03buk0.jpg
> >
> > http://www.specialinterestarms.com/100_6180.jpg
> >
> > http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/valkyriearmscommando13.jpg
> >
> > http://www.rrrc.co.uk/images/pic7.jpg
> >
> > (schematic) http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/deliseplans3.jpg
> >
> > http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/2/20/De_Lisle_Carbine_Folding_Stock.jpg/450px-De_Lisle_Carbine_Folding_Stock.jpg
> >
> > http://www.valkyriearms.com/images/delisle1.jpg
> >
> > http://i.imgur.com/xrCBa.jpg
> >
> > (schematic) http://www.exordinanza.net/foto/delisle/patent.jpg
>
>
> Problem is you're talking about a .45 cal bullet. The temple wound was
> estimated .22-.25 cal wide. Gordon Arnold was a phony. His story kept
> evolving to keep up with new developments.

Are you speaking of the temple wound that had a triangular 'flap' of
bone showing that was over the ear? Or the 5mm right forehead/temple
bullet hole?

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Calculated from the arrival of the shock wave.

[Anthony Marsh]

That is an exit wound from the explosion of the head.
The forehead hole in an entrance wound.

> Chris
>

[HONOR flight 93]

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 2:42:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:

As I wrote, I agree that during the assassination shots self-claimed DP
witness G. Arnold was not actually an eyewitness who stood near the north
GK stockade fence/north pergola retaining wall. (perhaps he was simply
within the plaza, somewhere else?)

Anthony, it sounds like you may have completely missed reading the
following 1978 article. (or, maybe, you have simply forgotten that you
read it?)

Nearing the final months of the HSCA, Arnold was also quoted several times
in the "Dallas Morning News," Sunday, August 27, 1978 newspaper when he
made his very first media-publicized claims in the article entitled, "SS
Imposters Spotted by JFK Witness," (an article that also features
additional witnesses) written by long time investigative journalist, Earl
Golz.

<QUOTE>

...

Gordon L. Arnold, former Dallas soldier, said he was stopped by a man
wearing a light-colored suit as he was walking behind a fence on top of
the grassy knoll minutes before the assassination.

Arnold, now an investigator for the Dallas Department of Consumer
Affairs, was not called by the Warren Commission and has not been
interviewed by the House Assassinations Committee.

Arnold said he was moving toward the railroad bridge over the triple
underpass to take movie film of the presidential motorcade when "this guy
just walked towards me and said that I shouldn't be up there."

Arnold challenged the man's authority, he said, and the man "showed me a
badge and said he was with the Secret Service and that he didn't want
anybody up there."

Arnold then retreated to the front of the picket fence high up on the knoll just to the west of the pergola on the north side of Elm Street.

AS THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE came down Elm towards the triple underpass,
Arnold stood on a mound of fresh dirt and started rolling his film.

He said he "felt" the first shot come from behind him, only inches over
his left shoulder, he said.

"I had just gotten out of basic training," Arnold said, "In my mind live
ammunition was being fired. It was being fired over my head and I hit the
dirt."

Arnold, then 22, said the first two shots came from behind the fence,
"close enough for me to fall down on my face." He stayed there for the
duration of the shooting.

His fence position, under the shade of a tree, may have locked away his
story for 15 years as the Warren Commission and later other assassination
researchers scanned photographs and movie footage of Dealey Plaza for
witnesses to the shooting.

The first two shots that Arnold heard did not come from the Texas School
Book Depository Building because "you wouldn't hear a whiz go over the top
of your head like that." He said, "I say a whiz -- you didn't really hear
a whiz of a bullet, you hear just like a shock wave. You feel it . . . You
feel something and then a report comes right behind it. It's just like the
end of a muzzle blast."

He said he heard two shots, "and then there was a blend. For a single bolt
action, he had to have been firing darn good because I don't think anybody
could fire that rapid a bolt action."

"The next thing I knew someone was kicking my butt and telling me to get
up." Arnold said, "it was a policeman. And I told him to go jump in the
river. And then this other guy -- a policeman -- comes up with a shotgun
and he was crying and that thing was waving back and forth. I said you can
have everything I've got. Just point it someplace else."

ARNOLD TOOK his film from the canister and threw it to the policeman. "It
wasn't worth three dollars and something to be shot. All I wanted them to
do was to take that blooming picture (film) and get out of there, just let
me go. That shotgun and the guy crying over there was enough to unnerve me
for anything."

Two days later, Arnold was on a plane reporting for duty at Fort
Wainwright, Alaska. He hadn't given police in Dealey Plaza his name and
never told his story to authorities, "because I heard after that there
were a lot of people making claims about pictures and stuff and they were
dying sort of peculiarly. I just said, well, the devil with it, forget it.
Besides, I couldn't claim my pictures anyway; how did I know what were
mine?"

...

<END QUOTE>

Arnold was never interviewed by the HSCA. (even though before it closed
then wrote its final report it probably became aware of his publicized
claims)