You're right, I forgot about Williams. Sorry. (He did
start his answer, though, with "I am not sure.")
>
> > IOW, I think
> > that whoever wrote the SS account misunderstood Givens and simply got
> > the sequence of events wrong. If there's another explanation for the
> > discrepancy that makes sense, let me hear it, please.
>
> Here's an explanation. Givens DID see Oswald on the sixth floor before
> going down for lunch, and was later convinced to say this happened
> after going down for lunch.
I don't think that's the most probable explanation, by any
means. First of all, the Secret Service version is second- or third-
hand, and the other is a sworn statement in Givens' own words. If you can
show that he lied, fine.
>
>
> > Belin may've been wrong not to pursue it, but I don't think
> > you can show that he was "trying to deceive." There *were* two
> > different versions of Givens' story in the record -- the SS version
> > placed Oswald on the 6th floor, while the FBI account didn't mention
> > it.
>
> I appreciate your trying not to think bad of the guy. But he's not
> worth giving the benefit of the doubt. His failure to cross-examine
> Givens about his story change was not an isolated incident. His
> February 64 memo shows he knew Eddie Piper said he saw Oswald at 12.
> His partner Ball took Piper's testimony in which Piper repeated his
> claim he saw Oswald at 12. And yet the chapter written by Belin and
> Ball claimed Givens was the last to see Oswald in the building. This
> was not a mistake. In 1971, Sylvia Meagher wrote an article on Givens
> in which Piper's statements were mentioned. Belin was shown this
> article, and allowed to comment on this article. Two years later, his
> book, November 22, 1963,: You Be The Jury, was published. Here, he
> repeated the claim Givens was the last to see Oswald in the building
> before the shooting not once, not twice, but three times, by my count.
> He NEVER mentions Piper. The man was almost certainly a liar.
What was Belin's response to Meagher's article, I wonder.
The Warren Report called Piper and Jack Dougherty "confused
witnesses" and therefore not credible. Dougherty was certainly confused.
Piper I'm not sure about, but if Belin really thought so, it might explain
why he ignored Piper. (I'm not giving Belin the benefit of the doubt to
be kind, but because I don't want to base anything on suspicion alone.)
You seem to suspect that Belin persuaded Givens to change his
story. I can't imagine how that conversation might've gone, can you?
The two were strangers to one another prior to the day he testified,
right?
It's hard for me to believe that Belin would risk everything
to suborn perjury for such a small result. How could Belin be sure that
Givens and anyone Givens confided in would never talk? How many others
had to zip their lips for decades -- Revill, Sawyer, Kaiser (the clipboard
owner), or was it Belin alone in your view?
IMO, Givens' testimony doesn't sound as if he were rehearsed
or unsure of his story. Belin asked him numerous questions about Oswald
on the 6th floor that might've tripped him up, but didn't. (I'm adding
that part of his testimony below as a P.S.)
I'm not convinced that anybody did suborn perjury or lie,
but I'm listening if you want to continue. You know the record well,
and I appreciate that.
P.S.
Givens/Belin exchange re LHO on 6th floor....
QUOTE:
Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him at 8:30 on the first floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, we went back upstairs and started to work.
Mr. BELIN. You went back up to the sixth floor to continue laying the
floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next?
Mr. GIVENS. Next?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way
downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the
fifth floor.
I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket
pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my
jacket with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on
the sixth floor in that vicinity, coming from that way.
Mr. BELIN. Coming from what way?
Mr. GIVENS. Toward the window up front where the shots were fired
from.
Mr. BELIN. Just a second, where did you go? Where were you when you
saw him on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. I had went and got my jacket and was on my way back to the
elevator.
Mr. BELIN. All right, just a second. I am going to get a plan of the
sixth floor, if I have one, and try and have you point that out to
me.
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I don't seem to have a sixth floor plan here, but
perhaps we can use another plan here to help us.
Here is a diagram of the front of the building. This is the Elm Street
side, and you can see the arrow pointing north.
This perhaps would be a diagram of the third floor. You notice that
there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven sets of windows,
right?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. On the Elm Street side, seven pairs of windows?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You notice the two freight elevators toward the rear. Now
did you see--when you first saw him on the sixth floor there, were you
standing near any of these windows?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. I was over here by the elevators.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing your finger to a spot which would be
somewhat to the east of the east elevator, is that correct?
Mr. GIVENS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. At a spot which is about on the same line as what I call
the south side of the east elevator, and about as far cast of the
front part of that elevator as the distance from the front of the
elevator to the back of the east elevator, is that about as far east
of the front part of that elevator, is that about right?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing at that point, and where did you see Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I was along here [indicating].
Mr. BELIN. All right, you are pointing at a spot you say along in
here?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. That would be near the east wall of the building?
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Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You can see a scale here that is from 0 to 20 feet. Well,
it would be about 30 to 40 feet north of the south wall of that
building, is that right?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And around 10 feet or so away from the east wall, is that
about right?
Mr. GIVENS. That is about right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice whether or not there were any cartons
stacked up around the southeast corner of that sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I didn't pay any attention about any being stacked,
because we had taken all that stock from that side of the building and
ran it down that side.
Mr. BELIN. You had taken stock down from the west part of the sixth
floor where you were working and put it there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; ran it down the side right in front of the window.
Mr. BELIN. Was he between that stock and the window, or was he on the
other side of the window?
Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards
the elevators.
Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand.
Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was that kind of an aisleway over there right next to the
east wall that he was walking along, or what?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they have aisles.
Mr. BELIN. Now, was there stock in back of him as well as in front of
him?
Were you there where you had stacked it up, or not, or don't you
remember?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was already some books stacked there.
Mr. BELIN. Were there books stacked between where you saw him and the
window itself?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, he was walking with his clipboard from that
southeast corner?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him walking? What direction did you see
him walking in?
Mr. GIVENS. He was coming towards the elevators.
Mr. BELIN. From the Elm Street side of the building?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, Sir.
Mr. BELIN. So that would be walking in a northerly direction?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you said that he had a clipboard in his hand?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; he had his board with his orders on it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the orders on the board?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; he had it in his hand.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have any books in his hand that he was carrying?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever fill orders in November on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there were any books or book
cartons over in that corner from which he might have been filling
orders?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; it was possible.
Mr. BELIN. It was possible?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch where he walked to?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay much attention. I was getting
ready on the elevator, and I say, "Boy, are you going downstairs?"
Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you?
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Mr. GIVENS. I say, "It's near lunch time."
He said, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, dose the gate to the
elevator." That meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both
gates down and it will come up by itself.
Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?
Mr. GIVENS. That is all.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that? Did you Say you would close the
elevator gate, or not say anything?
Mr. GIVENS. I said, "Okay," and got on the elevator.
Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take down?
Mr. GIVENS. I taken this one.
Mr. BELIN. The east elevator?
Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not when you got down to the first
floor, the west elevator was there?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't, because I looked over there to close
the gate and it wasn't there.
Mr. BELIN. It wasn't there when you got down to the first floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't.
UNQUOTE
Jean