Additional SBT Common Sense (And Some Witness Interpretation Stuff)

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David Von Pein

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Oct 24, 2006, 12:54:13 AM10/24/06
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WhiskyJoe

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Oct 25, 2006, 11:32:02 PM10/25/06
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Very good David.

The only change I would make, is to say the bullet struck at about Z-222,
not at Z-224. Larry Sturdivan in "The JFK Myths" covers this well.

Test firings at two ballistic blocks, one to represent Kennedy, one
representing Connally, with a jacket draped over the "Connally block" show
that the entire right side of the jacket bulges about 6 inches forward
about 1/10th of a second after a bullet passes through. From Zapruder's
angle, the 6 inches of movement looked like a 2 inch movement (left to
right), about the width of a lapel. But it really had nothing to do with a
lapel flip. It was a coat bulge. A tenth of a second before Z-224 occurs
at Z-222.

In addition, Zapruder jiggled his camera at Z-318, corresponding to Z-313,
5 frames before. He also jiggled his camera at Z-227, corresponding to
Z-222, 5 frames before.

The confusion over the Z-224 coat bulge occurs because it is natural to
assume the coat would bulge out at the same time the bullet passes
through, like the bullet pushes the coat until it is taut and then cuts
through. But it doesn't happen this way. The right side of the coat
weights several times as much as the bullet. It can't push the coat at
full speed without creating momentum and energy out of thin air. Nor will
the jacket slow down the bullet from, let's say 800 mph to 80 mph. If it
did that, wearing an ordinary coat loosely would provide a pretty good
bulletproof jacket.

Instead, within a fraction of a Zapruder frame, the bullet passes through
Kennedy's neck, passes through Connally's chest, almost instantly cuts
through the coat, transfers a little momentum to the coat, passes through
the wrist and stops in the thigh. After the bullet has come to a rest, the
coat has hardly moved at all. But during the next 1/10th of a second, the
right side swings forward at about 3 mph, making it's maximum swing
forward of 6 inches, before falling back into place.

So, in conclusion, we have two things that pin down the timing, the coat
bulge and a Zapruder camera jiggle. Both point to frame 222.


David Von Pein

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Oct 26, 2006, 8:07:23 PM10/26/06
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>>> "The only change I would make, is to say the bullet struck at about
Z-222, not at Z-224. Larry Sturdivan in "The JFK Myths" covers this well."
<<<

Yes, I know he does. I just don't agree with his precise timeline.

Connally's right shoulder moves FORWARD and DOWNWARD at exactly Z224. This
movement, IMO, debunks the proposed Z222 SBT hit.

JBC's shoulder movement is indicating the EXACT moment of impact, with the
bullet physically moving the shoulder at the exact moment of the strike
(Z224, not Z222). The large lapel movement is occurring at this EXACT same
Z224 frame as well.

Too much "Z224" coincidence (i.e., having both of these things occurring
at once) for it NOT to have been the precise moment of impact. And JBC's
"hiking up" of both shoulders one frame later (at Z225), with his
startled, open-mouthed expression occurring at Z225 as well, gives further
indication that the bullet had just an instant earlier pierced Connally's
back.

Granted, Z222 is less than the blink of an eye away from Z224...so it's
certainly not a major difference when talking about the SBT hit. Either
way, the SBT is alive and well....and always has been. (Mark Fuhrman's
non-SBT guesswork, which includes a JFK hit at Z186 but somehow no
"hands-moving-toward-the-neck" JFK reaction until Z226, notwithstanding.)

Watch.....

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/7731.gif

Anthony Marsh

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Oct 26, 2006, 11:27:11 PM10/26/06
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Ok, that's fine for your placing the hit to Connally at Z-224 in your
scenario. But what about Kennedy? Did you bother looking at him to see
what he is doing? Obviously not. You failed to notice that Kennedy had
already been hit and his hands are up in front of this throat, thus
blocking any potential bullet exit from then hitting Connally.

r2bz...@sbcglobal.net

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Oct 30, 2006, 12:56:14 AM10/30/06
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***JFK's hands were not blocking a bullet at Z224. JFK's left elbow
was still at his side at Z224 and he began to move it out and up at
Z225. His reflex reaction was in time with Connally's reflexive hand
jump.

***Ron Judge


David Von Pein

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Oct 30, 2006, 5:56:42 PM10/30/06
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>>> "JFK's hands were not blocking a bullet at Z224. .... His reflex
reaction was in time with Connally's reflexive hand jump." <<<

Exactly correct. If you watch this Z-Film clip (below) over and over a few
times, you can easily see why I equate the arm movements of both JFK & JBC
to being akin to "two puppets tied to the very same string", with both of
the mens' right arms moving upward in perfect unison at exactly the same
instant.

Somebody please tell me how ANYBODY (even a CTer of long-standing) can
watch this Z-Film clip and come to any conclusion other than the
conclusion that the two victims are reacting at the exact same time to
being hit by gunfire?.....

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/7647.gif


curtj...@hotmail.com

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Oct 31, 2006, 1:35:57 AM10/31/06
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Well, it could be possible, and could only be 'true' if one really wanted
it so bad to be true. By the HSCA and many many others, JFK was already
hit at circa 190, and doing some right hand maneuvering. JBC, whenever he
is hit, is hit in the armpit area and exits 25 degrees lower into his
right nipple area. Not a good trajectory if JFK is hit 5 and 3/4" below
the neckline, and somehow goes UPWARD toward his throat. Of course, if
JBC is hit here as you say in your two frame clip, then why is he still
holding on to his Stetson? How long did it take to enter, come out, and
then re-enter the radius to break that, and do much damage to the wrist?
And that is not going to bring up any blood on that nice white cuff
showing now? Of course JBC is still holding on to that Stetson circa 246.
And by your 'puppertry', how do you now have the bullet traverse into the
left thigh?

CJ

Might want to consider some more common sense

http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/The%20Wounding%20of%20John%20Connally.htm

> http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/7647.gif


Anthony Marsh

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Oct 31, 2006, 1:38:20 AM10/31/06
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More nonsense. JFK had already reacted before Connally starts to react.


Anthony Marsh

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Oct 31, 2006, 1:39:04 AM10/31/06
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JFK's hands were up in front of his throat by Z-224. I was not talking
about his elbows.

> ***Ron Judge
>
>

David Von Pein

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Oct 31, 2006, 3:04:51 PM10/31/06
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>>> "JFK's hands were up in front of his throat by Z-224. I was not talking about his elbows." <<<

Simply untrue. JFK's left hand is nowhere near his "throat" by even
Z225. You're cracked if you think it is.

And his right hand isn't quite at throat level yet either. Just
look....

http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/z225%204.jpg


David Von Pein

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Oct 31, 2006, 3:09:22 PM10/31/06
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JBC never dropped his hat....all the way to Parkland!

The CTers who love to claim it was "impossible" for John Connally to
hold the hat with a fractured radius bone just simply don't know what
the heck they're talking about. .....

Nellie Connally -- "He had the hat in his hand when I pulled him over
and crouched him down and he was holding that hat up against him. He
closed up that wound that would've killed him before we got to the
hospital."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nellie.txt


Anthony Marsh

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Oct 31, 2006, 10:29:26 PM10/31/06
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David Von Pein wrote:
> JBC never dropped his hat....all the way to Parkland!
>
> The CTers who love to claim it was "impossible" for John Connally to
> hold the hat with a fractured radius bone just simply don't know what
> the heck they're talking about. .....
>

I am not sure that is the claim. The way Cyril Wecht demonstrates it on
people does not involve fracturing their radius. His point is that the
impact and damage to the nerve can make it difficult to keep holding the
hat. So, if you are an expert on such matters, please tell us exactly
when he did drop his hat.

> Nellie Connally -- "He had the hat in his hand when I pulled him over
> and crouched him down and he was holding that hat up against him. He
> closed up that wound that would've killed him before we got to the
> hospital."
>

He did not use the hat to close the wound. Curiously there is not a drop
of blood on Connally's hat. How do you explain that?

> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nellie.txt
>
>

Anthony Marsh

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Oct 31, 2006, 10:32:50 PM10/31/06
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David Von Pein wrote:
>>>> "JFK's hands were up in front of his throat by Z-224. I was not talking about his elbows." <<<
>
> Simply untrue. JFK's left hand is nowhere near his "throat" by even
> Z225. You're cracked if you think it is.
>

Then you are calling Dale Myers a liar, because his drawing shows
Kennedy's hands up near his throat at Z-224.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl2.htm

Notice how his red line goes right through Kennedy's left hand.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl2b.htm

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl1.htm

curtj...@hotmail.com

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Nov 1, 2006, 4:13:02 PM11/1/06
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It was a posed question. If it is true, it still doesn't prove what
you are asserting at all. It's not out of 'character' to ask such a
question, as I am sure most people would drop something if that spot in
their body was injured in a violent manner.

If you want to prove something, prove where and what the bullet might
be doing in your picture frames. Where is the hole or movent in the
coat when the bullet comes out of the right nipple? Why is there no
quick reaction to his arm and wrist? When the bullet comes out of the
skin to go toward the left thigh, how is that possible? How is it
possible to come out of the skin and not leave a blood trail? Why when
JFK is shot in the head, the blood is immediately shown, and when and
if the same type of bullet is used, there is no blood to be shown at
other points in the attack?

CJ


WhiskyJoe

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Nov 3, 2006, 12:52:49 AM11/3/06
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>> "The only change I would make, is to say
>> the bullet struck at about Z-222,
>> not at Z-224. Larry Sturdivan in
>> "The JFK Myths" covers this well."


> Yes, I know he does. I just don't agree with his
> precise timeline.

> Connally's right shoulder moves FORWARD and
> DOWNWARD at exactly Z224. This movement, IMO,
> debunks the proposed Z222 SBT hit.


I assume you mean, one can see the shoulder move, comparing frame 223
with 224. I agree, by doing so, one can see that between frame 223 and
224, he did move his shoulder down. At least, it appears so to me from
looking at the still pictures at:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

But did he move his shoulder down between frame 222 and 223 as well? We
can't tell. We need to see the entire right shoulder at frame 222, but
much of it is hidden behind the sign.

I don't think we can conclude that the movement started between frames
223 and 224. It may have started earlier.

> JBC's shoulder movement is indicating the
> EXACT moment of impact, with the bullet
> physically moving the shoulder at the
> exact moment of the strike (Z224,
> not Z222). The large lapel movement is
> occurring at this EXACT same
> Z224 frame as well.

But in theory, the coat should not be seen to move as the bullet passes
through it. In my opinion (admittedly, only that of a former high
school and college freshman physics student, but a fairly good one) the
conservation of momentum would be violated by a lapel or coat that
bulged with the bullet.

Even more telling, in real life experiments by Dr. Lattimer, the coat
did not have a lapel flip, it had a coat bulge. And this bulge did not
occur with the bullet, but always one tenth of a second later, which I
think makes more sense anyway.

Until some experiment is run that shows the lapel can flip, when struck
in the correct location (several inches from the lapel) and the coat is
observed to react a good deal less then one tenth of a second after the
bullet, it is most reasonable to assume the bullet passed through at
frame 222. The hypothesis that a 0.00 or a 0.01 or a 0.02 second delay
should not be entertained until a experiment shows that this is
possible. Only a 0.10 second delay has been demonstrated.

> Too much "Z224" coincidence (i.e.,
> having both of these things occurring
> at once) for it NOT to have been the
> precise moment of impact.

No, not to much of a coincidence. The first opportunity we have of
seeing Connally's shoulder move is at frame 224, because the first
frame that shows his entire shoulder is at frame 223. We cannot judge
if his shoulder was moving at frame 223, because we do not have a
previous frame to compare it to.

The observed first movement at frame 224 is consistent with the
movement starting at frame 224, but it is also consistent with the
movement starting at frame 223, or at frame 222.


> And JBC's "hiking up" of both shoulders
> one frame later (at Z225), with his
> startled, open-mouthed expression
> occurring at Z225 as well, gives further
> indication that the bullet had just an
> instant earlier pierced Connally's
> back.

But more consistent with his reacting to a wound at frame 222. The
delay between frames 222 and 225 is about 0.15 seconds, which is about
the amount of time a pain message would go from his chest, up to the
brain and a response would go back, first to his face and then his
shoulders. As I understand it, a reaction of this sort in 0.05 seconds
should not be possible. The minimum time for a reaction is about 150
milliseconds.

> Granted, Z222 is less than the blink
> of an eye away from Z224...so it's
> certainly not a major difference when
> talking about the SBT hit. Either
> way, the SBT is alive and well....
> and always has been.

But it is important to get this right.

If they were wounded at frame 222, but LNers say it was at frame 224,
CTers could, and already have, argued that the reactions of Kennedy and
Connally occur too soon to be consistent with a bullet at frame 224.
Therefore the SBT is false.

And conversely, if they were wounded at frame 224, but LNers say it was
at frame 222, CTers could say, that the observed reactions of Kennedy
and Connally occur too late to be consistent with a bullet at frame
222. Therefore the SBT is false.

So whichever is true, it's important to get it right. Otherwise, the
CTers will exploit this minor error.


David Von Pein

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Nov 3, 2006, 1:21:48 PM11/3/06
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This two-frame clip shows the Z224 JBC shoulder movement very nicely:

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/6640.gif


Anthony Marsh

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Nov 3, 2006, 10:35:15 PM11/3/06
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David Von Pein wrote:
> This two-frame clip shows the Z224 JBC shoulder movement very nicely:
>
> http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/6640.gif
>
>


No.

WhiskyJoe

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Nov 3, 2006, 11:26:13 PM11/3/06
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Yes it does. This film showing frames 223 and 224 clearly shows the right
shoulder moves down between frame 223 and 224.

Would a film clip of frames 222 and 223 also the shoulder moving down?
Well, no, it won't, it can't, because the right shoulder is largely hidden
by the sign in frame 222. But it is quite possible, and I think quite
likely, that if the sign was not there, such a film clip would show the
right shoulder moving down as well.


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