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Italian serial numbers marking system
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Raymond
Dec 23, 2011, 9:30:31 AM12/23/11
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Italian serial numbers marking system
It would help to understand the foreign marking system on military
weapons
The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit serial
number,
progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
alphabet - A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by
looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
in Feb. 1963.
See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain, since there
were hundreds of rifles with the same serial numbers however, the
prefix would be different. The FBI did locate a rifle with the serial
number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, in
Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used
Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156
was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the
FBI:
THE ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines
received by Century Arms, Inc. from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears
on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #
13 Warren Report. It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have
identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I suspect
was done in Dallas to frame LHO)
Sylvia Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time,
didn't understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.
By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on
the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John
in Arlington, VA has four Carcanos and two serial
numbers are on the receiver, two on the barrel.
There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos
were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni
may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small
plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in
small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name.
Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the
manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the Italian troops knew
what ammo to use.
I suggest the purchase of two books. Anyone interested in the rifle
should get these books. There are hundreds of ads and they can be
seen in the book, THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON. The book was produced by
Gary Nivaggi, in Dec. 1994. In the late 50's and early 60's, many
varieties, styles and calibers of the MC rifles were offered at low
prices.
The book contains questions regarding the MC, various ammo loads for
it, its clip, and other great information about the stopping and
"knockdown" capabilities of firearm projectiles. All from the pages of
American Rifleman.
Many questions being asked on the posts will all be answered if you
own THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON.
Another book that will provide valuable information that comes from a
real expert on the Carcano: Richard Hobbs, 3958 Cambridge Rd. # 162,
Cameron Park, CA 95682.
Last E-mail I had was
fuc...@innercite.com. Hobbs is a collector of Carcanos since 1945 and
may know more about the weapon than anyone in this country.
His book: THE CARCANO Italy's Military Rifle. (Was about $18.00) He
is not a JFK "BUFF."- but he sure knows that weapon.
If you own these two books, you will hardly ever have a serious
question about the Carcano again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Carcano Potpourri !!!!!!!
Adam Consolidated (CRESCENT FIREARMS) :
"Three American firms entered the competition for the 91s that the
Italian Defense Ministry was selling. Adam Consolidated, in
conjunction with the Feldsott brothers, won the bidding with a total
offer of $ 1,776,OOO for the approximately 570,000 guns."
"... Some 5300 kilos (approx. 1200 Pounds) of parts were included
in the contract price. Adam also purchased 2,608,704 rounds of
ammunition, which were picked up and paid for as items sepatate from
the surplus weapons, on three occasions."
Aug. 8, 1960 ....................653,176 cartridges 6.5 mm
July 31, 1961.................... 1,304,352 same
June 6, 1962 ..................... 652,176 same
The price was $13.57 per thousand, or somewhat more than a penny per
bullet. "
From: THE GUN - Henry S. Bloomgarden
Apparently, thousands of these Italian rifles were sold in the US
before Cresent won the above bid. Klein's was selling the 7.35 mm as
early as the spring of 1958
In this ad of 4-58, the MANNLICHER HIGH POWER RIFLE sold for $12.95 -
Good outside, very good inside. A very good outside: Excellent inside
sold for $14.95 and an Excellent inside and outside cost $16.95. For
98 cents, a leather sling was available and a cleaning rod cost 79
cents. Military ammo in clips of six-12 for 98 cents- 48 for $2.98.
The following month - the same ad, but the sling and rod were included
free.
From 7- 58 until 10 - 60, Klein's did not advertise any MCs. Then,
in 10 - 60 appeared their ad for the CUSTOM SPORTERIZED MODEL for
$19.88.
In 3-62 the 6.5 mm was advertised for $11.88. AMERICAN RIFLEMAN .
In 1958, Congressman Morano was pleading : "Let's find out where
some of these Carcano rifles have gone."
Macy's and Sears Roebuck, as well as sporting supply stores,
discount stores and Army-and-Navy-surplus stores sold the weapon and
the ammo.
Some of these guns came from Finland:
"During the first winter of the war with Russia, Findland procured
from Sweden approximately 15,000 Swedish 6.5 mm M 96 Mausers and 6.5
mm ammunition which Findland decided to manufacture for these weapons
during WW II. Findland received, in addition, a supply of Italian M38,
7.35 mm carbines via Germany during WW II. Both weapons saw limited
service as they were relegated to use by the stationary troops, such
as guards on bridges, airfields, railways, waterworks, etc. Today, the
greater portion of the M 38 carbines Findland received can be traced
to the U.S. market as surplus war goods."
FROM- BOOK OF RIFLES
It would help to understand the foreign marking system on military
weapons
The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit serial
number,
progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
alphabet - A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by
looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
in Feb. 1963.
See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain, since there
were hundreds of rifles with the same serial numbers however, the
prefix would be different. The FBI did locate a rifle with the serial
number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, in
Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used
Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156
was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the
FBI:
THE ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines
received by Century Arms, Inc. from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears
on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #
13 Warren Report. It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have
identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I suspect
was done in Dallas to frame LHO)
Sylvia Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time,
didn't understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.
By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on
the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John
in Arlington, VA has four Carcanos and two serial
numbers are on the receiver, two on the barrel.
There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos
were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni
may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small
plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in
small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name.
Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the
manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the Italian troops knew
what ammo to use.
I suggest the purchase of two books. Anyone interested in the rifle
should get these books. There are hundreds of ads and they can be
seen in the book, THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON. The book was produced by
Gary Nivaggi, in Dec. 1994. In the late 50's and early 60's, many
varieties, styles and calibers of the MC rifles were offered at low
prices.
The book contains questions regarding the MC, various ammo loads for
it, its clip, and other great information about the stopping and
"knockdown" capabilities of firearm projectiles. All from the pages of
American Rifleman.
Many questions being asked on the posts will all be answered if you
own THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON.
Another book that will provide valuable information that comes from a
real expert on the Carcano: Richard Hobbs, 3958 Cambridge Rd. # 162,
Cameron Park, CA 95682.
Last E-mail I had was
fuc...@innercite.com. Hobbs is a collector of Carcanos since 1945 and
may know more about the weapon than anyone in this country.
His book: THE CARCANO Italy's Military Rifle. (Was about $18.00) He
is not a JFK "BUFF."- but he sure knows that weapon.
If you own these two books, you will hardly ever have a serious
question about the Carcano again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Carcano Potpourri !!!!!!!
Adam Consolidated (CRESCENT FIREARMS) :
"Three American firms entered the competition for the 91s that the
Italian Defense Ministry was selling. Adam Consolidated, in
conjunction with the Feldsott brothers, won the bidding with a total
offer of $ 1,776,OOO for the approximately 570,000 guns."
"... Some 5300 kilos (approx. 1200 Pounds) of parts were included
in the contract price. Adam also purchased 2,608,704 rounds of
ammunition, which were picked up and paid for as items sepatate from
the surplus weapons, on three occasions."
Aug. 8, 1960 ....................653,176 cartridges 6.5 mm
July 31, 1961.................... 1,304,352 same
June 6, 1962 ..................... 652,176 same
The price was $13.57 per thousand, or somewhat more than a penny per
bullet. "
From: THE GUN - Henry S. Bloomgarden
Apparently, thousands of these Italian rifles were sold in the US
before Cresent won the above bid. Klein's was selling the 7.35 mm as
early as the spring of 1958
In this ad of 4-58, the MANNLICHER HIGH POWER RIFLE sold for $12.95 -
Good outside, very good inside. A very good outside: Excellent inside
sold for $14.95 and an Excellent inside and outside cost $16.95. For
98 cents, a leather sling was available and a cleaning rod cost 79
cents. Military ammo in clips of six-12 for 98 cents- 48 for $2.98.
The following month - the same ad, but the sling and rod were included
free.
From 7- 58 until 10 - 60, Klein's did not advertise any MCs. Then,
in 10 - 60 appeared their ad for the CUSTOM SPORTERIZED MODEL for
$19.88.
In 3-62 the 6.5 mm was advertised for $11.88. AMERICAN RIFLEMAN .
In 1958, Congressman Morano was pleading : "Let's find out where
some of these Carcano rifles have gone."
Macy's and Sears Roebuck, as well as sporting supply stores,
discount stores and Army-and-Navy-surplus stores sold the weapon and
the ammo.
Some of these guns came from Finland:
"During the first winter of the war with Russia, Findland procured
from Sweden approximately 15,000 Swedish 6.5 mm M 96 Mausers and 6.5
mm ammunition which Findland decided to manufacture for these weapons
during WW II. Findland received, in addition, a supply of Italian M38,
7.35 mm carbines via Germany during WW II. Both weapons saw limited
service as they were relegated to use by the stationary troops, such
as guards on bridges, airfields, railways, waterworks, etc. Today, the
greater portion of the M 38 carbines Findland received can be traced
to the U.S. market as surplus war goods."
FROM- BOOK OF RIFLES
Anthony Marsh
Dec 23, 2011, 4:41:15 PM12/23/11
to
On 12/23/2011 9:30 AM, Raymond wrote:
> Italian serial numbers marking system
> It would help to understand the foreign marking system on military
> weapons
>
> The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
> system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
> manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit serial
> number,
> progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
> a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
> alphabet - A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by
> looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
> in Feb. 1963.
>
> See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain, since there
> were hundreds of rifles with the same serial numbers however, the
> prefix would be different. The FBI did locate a rifle with the serial
> number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
>
Show me the proof that the FBI found a 91/38 Mannlicher-Carcano short
> Italian serial numbers marking system
> It would help to understand the foreign marking system on military
> weapons
>
> The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
> system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
> manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit serial
> number,
> progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
> a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
> alphabet - A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by
> looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
> in Feb. 1963.
>
> See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain, since there
> were hundreds of rifles with the same serial numbers however, the
> prefix would be different. The FBI did locate a rifle with the serial
> number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
>
rifle made in 1940 with the Fascist date XVIII made at Terni with the
serial number 2766. Show me which model of rifle it was.
> The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, in
> Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used
> Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156
> was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the
> FBI:
>
> THE ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines
> received by Century Arms, Inc. from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears
> on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #
> 13 Warren Report. It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have
> identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I suspect
> was done in Dallas to frame LHO)
> Sylvia Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time,
> didn't understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.
>
with the serial number 2766. That is not the same thing as a short rifle
with the serial number C2766.
As usual for a wacky theory you don't dare actually quote the document so
that people can see how you misinterpreted it.
It clearly says "Original list of Serial Numbers of 700 Carcano Italian
Carbines Received by Century Arms, Incorporated. from Empire Wholesale
Sporting Goods Limited Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Serial Number 2766
Appears on Last Page of Numbers (Exhibit D 103)"
CARBINES
> By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on
> the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John
> in Arlington, VA has four Carcanos and two serial
> numbers are on the receiver, two on the barrel.
>
But they originally did try to keep the same serial number on the stock as
the serial number on the barrel. But in cannibalizing and recycling parts
sometimes there are mismatches and stocks from other models missing any
serial numbers.
> There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos
> were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni
> may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small
> plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in
> small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name.
>
> Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the
> manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the Italian troops knew
> what ammo to use.
>
cartridge.
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