The Explosive Head Shot

[claviger]

The Explosive Head Shot
http://jfk-donahue.weebly.com/the-explosive-head-shot.html


The Explosive Head Shot

This is by far the most interesting and significant aspect of Donahue's theory of the Kennedy assassination. Donahue arrived at the theory of the explosive head-shot coming from the AR-15 by examining trajectory, pathology evidence, eyewitness statements, and other evidence. He was a ballistics expert who examined the case from a ballistics standpoint, but sought input from pathologists and others to confirm aspects of his theory. His theory of this shot is basically that it was accidentally fired when the agent handling the Secret Service AR-15 (who was unrestrained in the follow-up car) fell over and accidentally discharged the weapon. Given that there were a lot of witnesses who said that the limousine stopped or "almost" stopped, given that (in the book The Kennedy Detail by Gerald Blaine) limousine driver William Greer admitted to "tapping the brakes to check the tires" when he thought the sound of a shot was a tire blow-out, and given that the follow-up car was only five feet behind the President's limousine, I suspect that when follow-up car driver Sam Kinney saw the brake lights of the President's limousine, he slammed on the brakes of the follow-up car to avoid hitting the limousine, causing Hickey to fall over (as some witnesses described). Alternatively, Hickey could have fallen when the car started up again, as witness S.M. Holland described.

Another summary can be found here: http://www.lindastratmann.com/articles/mortal-error.aspx

By studying the Zapruder film carefully, Donahue determined the angle at which JFK’s head was inclined forward and turned to the left just before the head shot. By studying the entrance wound (actually, two locations for the entrance: the lower autopsy location and the higher Clark Panel/HSCA location, both of which Donahue studied) on the back of the head and lining it up with both the HSCA exit and area of the skull that was apparently blasted out, Donahue determined that the trajectory of the shot was from left-to-right and at a shallow (near horizontal) angle, whereas a shot made by Oswald would have been from right-to-left and at a steeper angle (exiting in Kennedy's face, which such a shot clearly did not do). Donahue's degree of head rotation and therefore trajectory disagreed with those of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, but given that Kennedy's nose can be seen on the Zapruder film just before the fatal shot, Donahue's calculations make more sense. Also, the fragmentation of the round that hit Kennedy’s head was more consistent with the type of high-powered frangible round favored by bodyguards and law enforcement. (In 1963, this type of round was exclusive to bodyguards.) From both a ballistics and a pathology standpoint, Kennedy’s head wound was not consistent with the type of full-metal-jacket round that Oswald used, but was consistent with a frangible AR-15 .225 bullet.

Picture
http://jfk-donahue.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/8/1/8281037/_2776069_orig.jpg

Donahue rejected the notion of a specific outshoot for an AR-15 round, but he considered (and rejected) the HSCA outshoot as being inconsistent with a shot from the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). Such a shot (from the Committee's determined inshoot, which was actually higher than where the autopsy doctors placed it) would have exited Kennedy's face, which it clearly didn't. A TSBD shot from the autopsy doctors' original location, with the Committee's outshoot (the lowest possible outshoot) made even less sense.

However, given that there was an apparent "gaping hole" head wound (which I suspect was largely created by a pre-autopsy surgery of the head, first proposed by David Lifton in Best Evidence, later confirmed by former ARRB analyst Doug Horne & additionally supported by the authors of Murder from Within), Donahue considered that a trajectory from the center of that gaping hole, and realized that it traced back to the follow-up car. However, I believe Donahue's initial thought to reject a specific out-shoot to be more correct, and I think the original entrance wound (low on the skull) specified by the autopsy doctors was also correct. (I also think the "back of the head blow-out," as reported by many witnesses, was caused by the AR-15 round.) So Donahue's trajectory analysis is, in my opinion, a moot point. However, that opinion does not dismiss or refute his theory, which is also based on other evidence, not just the trajectory analysis.

Special Agent George Hickey, four months new to the Secret Service and trained only as a driver, was assigned the duty of manning the AR-15 rifle by Assistant Special Agent In Charge Emory Roberts (most likely, as McLaren points out, because the other agents were hung-over from a late night of drinking until 5am the morning of the assassination. Gerald Blaine’s book The Kennedy Detail, while not accepting the Donahue theory, points out that the presidential detail was extremely short-handed and overworked, and all agents, including driver agents (Hickey), had been trained in use of the rifle. Blaine points out that rifle and shot-gun practice was only quarterly, so Hickey, who had been on the job for only four months, would have only had a chance to practice with the AR-15 rifle once. I disagree that Hickey's "rookie" status had much of anything to the events. Given Hickey's age at the time he joined the Secret Service (40), he likely had veteran's status, and I think that the AR-15 accident could have happened with any agent, even the most experienced Secret Service agent.

During his research, Donahue learned that the bullet that struck Kennedy in the head had disintegrated into at least forty fragments (many no bigger than the point of the pen, and the largest about the size of the nail on one’s little finger). This type of disintegration was more consistent with AR-15 .223 ammo than the military style rounds that Oswald used. Additonally, Kennedy autopsist Dr. Pierre Finck measured the entrance wound at 6mm. Since bullet entrance wounds through bone (Kennedy's skull) always leave holes bigger than their diameter, the entrance wound is entirely consistent with an AR-15 5.5mm round, but inconsistent with Oswald's 6.5mm rounds. Examination of the President’s brain and the edge scrapings from the entrance hole in the skull would provide evidence which would identify the type of bullet that caused Kennedy’s head wound, but that evidence "disappeared."

Donahue met with Dr. Alfred Olivier, whose experiments with firing Carcano rounds into ten gelatin-filled skulls were reported in the Warren Commission. (McLaren’s book offers more information on this, pointing out some of the weaknesses in Olivier’s experiments and conclusions.) One of the ten skulls did shatter, but in each case, Olivier found only two or three large bullet fragments, not the forty or more minute fragments that appeared on Kennedy’s X-rays. Furthermore, Olivier had fired his rounds in approximation of Oswald’s trajectory (into the autopsy-identified entrance wounds), and the resulting exit wounds were in the face of the skulls, shattering bones in the forehead area, not on the right side where Kennedy’s skull was damaged (by the pre-autopsy surgery of the head).

Donahue also studied eyewitness testimony from the Warren Commission and found reports of the smell of gunpowder around the Secret Service follow-up car in the motorcade, when the wind direction would have prevented gun smoke from the TSBD from reaching them. Menninger’s book mentions this, but McLaren’s book really drives the point home by recounting more than 20 such witness statemnts, including Senator Yarborough's, who said that the odor clung to the motorcade all the way to Parkland Hosptal.

Donahue supported the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) and thought that of the three shells found in the TSBD sniper's nest, one had not actually been fired (he thought that Oswald had kept it chambered in the Carcano to keep it clean). However, I think that the SBT and the chambered round are instances where Donahue made slight errors in his theory. I believe that Oswald did fire three shots, one of which was immediately after the head shot to create the bang-bang that so many witnesses heard (and which McLaren's book describes). I think there were four shots. I think the first shot hit Kennedy in the back (actually, I think it did more than that, as my book outlines), the second shot hit Connally, the third shot was the accidental AR-15 head shot, and the fourth shot was a miss from Oswald that caused bystander James Tague's injuries. My book describes what I think happened with all the shots fired in Dealey Plaza in more detail.

My take on the explosive head shot is below. This isn't necessarily Donahue's theory as described in Menninger's book, but adds the limousine stop (as Dan Roffe's book JFK Motorcade does) plus my own observations combined with other aspects of the assassination uncovered by other researchers.

Most of the President's Secret Service agents apparently thought the first shot was a fire-cracker or motorcycle backfire and did not react. SSA George Hickey was the exception. He was the first agent in the follow-up car to react. He can be seen looking to the left and down in the Zapruder film, but not at bystanders. He is looking toward the curb or the road. (My book outlines what I believe he is looking at.)

Driver of the presidential limo, William Greer, apparently had no idea that shots were being fired. The noise of the motorcycles mixed with the sounds of the gunshots, and he interpreted the sound that he heard as a tire blow-out. He tapped his brake to test the tires of the presidential limo (as described in the book The Kennedy Detail by Gerald Blaine).. Meanwhile, Hickey started to take aim on Oswald. He pointed the AR-15 toward Oswald and flipped off the safety on the "ready-to-go" AR-15.

With the follow-up car only five feet behind the presidential limo, follow-up car driver Sam Kinney saw the brake lights of the presidential limo come on. Not knowing what driver Greer was going to do, Kinney hit his own brakes hard in order to avoid rear-ending the presidential limo. Meanwhile, SSA Clint Hill noted Jacqueline Kennedy's odd reaction in the presidential limo and began to realize something serious was going on. He prepared to jump off the running board of the follow-up car and run to the back of the presidential limo.

The inertia of the sudden stopping of the follow-up car caused Hickey to lose his balance and fall. Or, alternatively, starting up again after coming to a stop caused Hickey to fall (as witness S.M. Holland described). In any case, the gun went off, just when it was pointed to the back of Kennedy's head.

And then the cover-up began.

Actually, I believe there was more to it than that, a combination of Secret Service impotence, inaction, and accident. My book outlines my theory of the first shot and why that was covered up, as well.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/13/2016 12:29 AM, claviger wrote:
>
>
> The Explosive Head Shot
> http://jfk-donahue.weebly.com/the-explosive-head-shot.html
>
>
> The Explosive Head Shot
>
> This is by far the most interesting and significant aspect of Donahue's theory of the Kennedy assassination. Donahue arrived at the theory of the explosive head-shot coming from the AR-15 by examining trajectory, pathology evidence, eyewitness statements, and other evidence. He was a ballistics expert who examined the case from a ballistics standpoint, but sought input from pathologists and others to confirm aspects of his theory. His theory of this shot is basically that it was accidentally fired when the agent handling the Secret Service AR-15 (who was unrestrained in the follow-up car) fell over and accidentally discharged the weapon. Given that there were a lot of witnesses who said that the limousine stopped or "almost" stopped, given that (in the book The Kennedy Detail by Gerald Blaine) limousine driver William Greer admitted to "tapping the brakes to check the tires" when he thought the sound of a shot was a tire blow-out, and given that the follow-up car was only five feet behind the President's limousine, I suspect that when follow-up car driver Sam Kinney saw the brake lights of the President's limousine, he slammed on the brakes of the follow-up car to avoid hitting the limousine, causing Hickey to fall over (as some witnesses described). Alternatively, Hickey could have fallen when the car started up again, as witness S.M. Holland described.
>
> Another summary can be found here: http://www.lindastratmann.com/articles/mortal-error.aspx
>
> By studying the Zapruder film carefully, Donahue determined the angle at which JFK’s head was inclined forward and turned to the left just before the head shot. By studying the entrance wound (actually, two locations for the entrance: the lower autopsy location and the higher Clark Panel/HSCA location, both of which Donahue studied) on the back of the head and lining it up with both the HSCA exit and area of the skull that was apparently blasted out, Donahue determined that the trajectory of the shot was from left-to-right and at a shallow (near horizontal) angle, whereas a shot made by Oswald would have been from right-to-left and at a steeper angle (exiting in Kennedy's face, which such a shot clearly did not do). Donahue's degree of head rotation and therefore trajectory disagreed with those of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, but given that Kennedy's nose can be seen on the Zapruder film just before the fatal shot, Donahue's calculations make more sense. Also, the fragmentation of the round that hit Kennedy’s head was more consistent with the type of high-powered frangible round favored by bodyguards and law enforcement. (In 1963, this type of round was exclusive to bodyguards.) From both a ballistics and a pathology standpoint, Kennedy’s head wound was not consistent with the type of full-metal-jacket round that Oswald used, but was consistent with a frangible AR-15 .225 bullet.
>
> Picture
> http://jfk-donahue.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/8/1/8281037/_2776069_orig.jpg
>
> Donahue rejected the notion of a specific outshoot for an AR-15 round, but he considered (and rejected) the HSCA outshoot as being inconsistent with a shot from the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). Such a shot (from the Committee's determined inshoot, which was actually higher than where the autopsy doctors placed it) would have exited Kennedy's face, which it clearly didn't. A TSBD shot from the autopsy doctors' original location, with the Committee's outshoot (the lowest possible outshoot) made even less sense.
>

Something like that. The HSCA outshoot was a compromise to avoid
considering conspiracy.

> However, given that there was an apparent "gaping hole" head wound (which I suspect was largely created by a pre-autopsy surgery of the head, first proposed by David Lifton in Best Evidence, later confirmed by former ARRB analyst Doug Horne & additionally supported by the authors of Murder from Within), Donahue considered that a trajectory from the center of that gaping hole, and realized that it traced back to the follow-up car. However, I believe Donahue's initial thought to reject a specific out-shoot to be more correct, and I think the original entrance wound (low on the skull) specified by the autopsy doctors was also correct. (I also think the "back of the head blow-out," as reported by many witnesses, was caused by the AR-15 round.) So Donahue's trajectory analysis is, in my opinion, a moot point. However, that opinion does not dismiss or refute his theory, which is also based on other evidence, not just the trajectory analysis.
>
> Special Agent George Hickey, four months new to the Secret Service and trained only as a driver, was assigned the duty of manning the AR-15 rifle by Assistant Special Agent In Charge Emory Roberts (most likely, as McLaren points out, because the other agents were hung-over from a late night of drinking until 5am the morning of the assassination. Gerald Blaine’s book The Kennedy Detail, while not accepting the Donahue theory, points out that the presidential detail was extremely short-handed and overworked, and all agents, including driver agents (Hickey), had been trained in use of the rifle. Blaine points out that rifle and shot-gun practice was only quarterly, so Hickey, who had been on the job for only four months, would have only had a chance to practice with the AR-15 rifle once. I disagree that Hickey's "rookie" status had much of anything to the events. Given Hickey's age at the time he joined the Secret Service (40), he likely had veteran's status, and I think that the AR-15 accident could have happened with any agent, even the most experienced Secret Service agent.
>
> During his research, Donahue learned that the bullet that struck Kennedy in the head had disintegrated into at least forty fragments (many no bigger than the point of the pen, and the largest about the size of the nail on one’s little finger). This type of disintegration was more consistent with AR-15 .223 ammo than the military style rounds that Oswald used. Additonally, Kennedy autopsist Dr. Pierre Finck measured the entrance wound at 6mm. Since bullet entrance wounds through bone (Kennedy's skull) always leave holes bigger than their diameter, the entrance wound is entirely consistent with an AR-15 5.5mm round, but inconsistent with Oswald's 6.5mm rounds. Examination of the President’s brain and the edge scrapings from the entrance hole in the skull would provide evidence which would identify the type of bullet that caused Kennedy’s head wound, but that evidence "disappeared."
>
> Donahue met with Dr. Alfred Olivier, whose experiments with firing Carcano rounds into ten gelatin-filled skulls were reported in the Warren Commission. (McLaren’s book offers more information on this, pointing out some of the weaknesses in Olivier’s experiments and conclusions.) One of the ten skulls did shatter, but in each case, Olivier found only two or three large bullet fragments, not the forty or more minute fragments that appeared on Kennedy’s X-rays. Furthermore, Olivier had fired his rounds in approximation of Oswald’s trajectory (into the autopsy-identified entrance wounds), and the resulting exit wounds were in the face of the skulls, shattering bones in the forehead area, not on the right side where Kennedy’s skull was damaged (by the pre-autopsy surgery of the head).
>
> Donahue also studied eyewitness testimony from the Warren Commission and found reports of the smell of gunpowder around the Secret Service follow-up car in the motorcade, when the wind direction would have prevented gun smoke from the TSBD from reaching them. Menninger’s book mentions this, but McLaren’s book really drives the point home by recounting more than 20 such witness statemnts, including Senator Yarborough's, who said that the odor clung to the motorcade all the way to Parkland Hosptal.
>
> Donahue supported the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) and thought that of the three shells found in the TSBD sniper's nest, one had not actually been fired (he thought that Oswald had kept it chambered in the Carcano to keep it clean). However, I think that the SBT and the chambered round are instances where Donahue made slight errors in his theory. I believe that Oswald did fire three shots, one of which was immediately after the head shot to create the bang-bang that so many witnesses heard (and which McLaren's book describes). I think there were four shots. I think the first shot hit Kennedy in the back (actually, I think it did more than that, as my book outlines), the second shot hit Connally, the third shot was the accidental AR-15 head shot, and the fourth shot was a miss from Oswald that caused bystander James Tague's injuries. My book describes what I think happened with all the shots fired in Dealey Plaza in more detail.
>
> My take on the explosive head shot is below. This isn't necessarily Donahue's theory as described in Menninger's book, but adds the limousine stop (as Dan Roffe's book JFK Motorcade does) plus my own observations combined with other aspects of the assassination uncovered by other researchers.
>
> Most of the President's Secret Service agents apparently thought the first shot was a fire-cracker or motorcycle backfire and did not react. SSA George Hickey was the exception. He was the first agent in the follow-up car to react. He can be seen looking to the left and down in the Zapruder film, but not at bystanders. He is looking toward the curb or the road. (My book outlines what I believe he is looking at.)
>
> Driver of the presidential limo, William Greer, apparently had no idea that shots were being fired. The noise of the motorcycles mixed with the sounds of the gunshots, and he interpreted the sound that he heard as a tire blow-out. He tapped his brake to test the tires of the presidential limo (as described in the book The Kennedy Detail by Gerald Blaine).. Meanwhile, Hickey started to take aim on Oswald. He pointed the AR-15 toward Oswald and flipped off the safety on the "ready-to-go" AR-15.
>
> With the follow-up car only five feet behind the presidential limo, follow-up car driver Sam Kinney saw the brake lights of the presidential limo come on. Not knowing what driver Greer was going to do, Kinney hit his own brakes hard in order to avoid rear-ending the presidential limo. Meanwhile, SSA Clint Hill noted Jacqueline Kennedy's odd reaction in the presidential limo and began to realize something serious was going on. He prepared to jump off the running board of the follow-up car and run to the back of the presidential limo.
>
> The inertia of the sudden stopping of the follow-up car caused Hickey to lose his balance and fall. Or, alternatively, starting up again after coming to a stop caused Hickey to fall (as witness S.M. Holland described). In any case, the gun went off, just when it was pointed to the back of Kennedy's head.
>

It did not stop. And for him to fall, first he has to be standing up and
the Bronson film does not show him standing up.

[claviger]

In his official report Hickey states he stood up twice when the Limousine
was fired on. Does this mean the Bronson film has been tampered with?
It is the only film of the motorcade that has not been made available by
the Sixth Floor Museum to the research community for close inspection
and in-depth analysis. Given the fact it is the second longest film of the
Motorcade while under fire that is most curious.


George W. Hickey, Jr.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-hicke.htm

Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of SS-679-X on the left side.
As IOO-X made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed
to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.

I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything.

Nothing was observed and I turned around and looked at the President's car.
The President was slumped to the left in the car and I observed him come up.
I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed as if the right side of his
head was hit and his hair flew forward.

I then reached down, picked up the AR 15, cocked and loaded it and stood part
way up in the car and looked about.

By this time, IOO-X and 679-X had passed under the overpass and was proceeding
at a high rate of speed towards the hospital.



S. M. Holland
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hollan1.htm

After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and
tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out.

After the first shot the Secret Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun
and then dropped back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off.

[mainframetech]

On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:39:26 PM UTC-5, claviger wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 9:58:32 AM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> > On 11/13/2016 12:29 AM, claviger wrote:
> >
> > > My take on the explosive head shot is below. This isn't necessarily Donahue's theory as described in Menninger's book, but adds the limousine stop (as Dan Roffe's book JFK Motorcade does) plus my own observations combined with other aspects of the assassination uncovered by other researchers.
> > >
> > > Most of the President's Secret Service agents apparently thought the first shot was a fire-cracker or motorcycle backfire and did not react. SSA George Hickey was the exception. He was the first agent in the follow-up car to react. He can be seen looking to the left and down in the Zapruder film, but not at bystanders. He is looking toward the curb or the road. (My book outlines what I believe he is looking at.)
> > >
> > > Driver of the presidential limo, William Greer, apparently had no idea that shots were being fired. The noise of the motorcycles mixed with the sounds of the gunshots, and he interpreted the sound that he heard as a tire blow-out. He tapped his brake to test the tires of the presidential limo (as described in the book The Kennedy Detail by Gerald Blaine).. Meanwhile, Hickey started to take aim on Oswald. He pointed the AR-15 toward Oswald and flipped off the safety on the "ready-to-go" AR-15.

If Greer thought there was a blow-out on the limousine, it would be
obvious to him just in the way it felt as the limo moved. I've had the
experience and it's obvious when there's a blow-out in the way the car
rides. No matter why he slowed the limo, it was probably a gift to the
shooter that fired the kill shot.

I don't know the training for the SS drivers, but I would think that a
blow-out on a tire might be a ploy of a terrorist group to stop the limo
so that it would be easier to kill the POTUS. I would think the training
would be to keep moving for some distance, not stop.

> > >
> > > With the follow-up car only five feet behind the presidential limo, follow-up car driver Sam Kinney saw the brake lights of the presidential limo come on. Not knowing what driver Greer was going to do, Kinney hit his own brakes hard in order to avoid rear-ending the presidential limo. Meanwhile, SSA Clint Hill noted Jacqueline Kennedy's odd reaction in the presidential limo and began to realize something serious was going on. He prepared to jump off the running board of the follow-up car and run to the back of the presidential limo.

No need to "prepare" for such an action. Just hop off.

> > >
> > > The inertia of the sudden stopping of the follow-up car caused Hickey to lose his balance and fall. Or, alternatively, starting up again after coming to a stop caused Hickey to fall (as witness S.M. Holland described). In any case, the gun went off, just when it was pointed to the back of Kennedy's head.
> > >
> >
> > It did not stop. And for him to fall, first he has to be standing up and
> > the Bronson film does not show him standing up.
>
> In his official report Hickey states he stood up twice when the Limousine
> was fired on. Does this mean the Bronson film has been tampered with?
> It is the only film of the motorcade that has not been made available by
> the Sixth Floor Museum to the research community for close inspection
> and in-depth analysis. Given the fact it is the second longest film of the
> Motorcade while under fire that is most curious.
>

It makes sense. The SS didn't want their methods or reactions sent out
to any would-be killers of the POTUS in the future.

>
> George W. Hickey, Jr.
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-hicke.htm
>
> Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of SS-679-X on the left side.
> As IOO-X made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed
> to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.
>

If the follow up car was just turning itself following the limousine,
then "to the right and rear" would probably be the Dal-Tex building which
is one of the places where it was considered that a shooter might be
located. And sure enough Eugene Hale Brading was in there with a bad
excuse for being there:

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKbrading.htm

> I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything.
>
> Nothing was observed and I turned around and looked at the President's car.
> The President was slumped to the left in the car and I observed him come up.
> I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed as if the right side of his
> head was hit and his hair flew forward.
>
> I then reached down, picked up the AR 15, cocked and loaded it and stood part
> way up in the car and looked about.
>
> By this time, IOO-X and 679-X had passed under the overpass and was proceeding
> at a high rate of speed towards the hospital.
>
>
>
> S. M. Holland
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hollan1.htm
>
> After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and
> tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out.
>
> After the first shot the Secret Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun
> and then dropped back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off.

One shot doubtful, but who fired the other 2 shots after a pause?

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

So are you calling Hickey a liar? Is that your only way out? He says he
didn't pick up the AR-15 until after the SS car pass under the undergpass.
That is long after the head shot.

[claviger]

I'm calling Hickey a brave man who stood up twice while the Limousine was
under fire trying to locate the source of gunfire. A key witness saw a
SSA stand up with a machine-gun in hand and fall back down. SSA Hickey
was the only bodyguard that day who picked up the AR-15. The wound
ballistics on the head of the President are more indicative of a high
velocity small caliber bullet. The AR-15 produced a 3,000 fps .223
projectile that was prone to fragment when hitting bone. For that reason
there have been protests for the M-16 ammo to be classified as a frangible
bullet and banned for military use under international law.

The Carcano 6.5 projectile had the opposite effect. With it's thick metal
jacket it earned the reputation as the "humanitarian rifle" that drilled
holes in soldiers instead of tumbling. It was considered a rugged bullet
less likely to fragment and when it did usually into larger pieces, not a
"lead snowstorm".

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/15/2016 8:56 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:39:26 PM UTC-5, claviger wrote:
>> On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 9:58:32 AM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>>> On 11/13/2016 12:29 AM, claviger wrote:
>>>
>>>> My take on the explosive head shot is below. This isn't necessarily Donahue's theory as described in Menninger's book, but adds the limousine stop (as Dan Roffe's book JFK Motorcade does) plus my own observations combined with other aspects of the assassination uncovered by other researchers.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the President's Secret Service agents apparently thought the first shot was a fire-cracker or motorcycle backfire and did not react. SSA George Hickey was the exception. He was the first agent in the follow-up car to react. He can be seen looking to the left and down in the Zapruder film, but not at bystanders. He is looking toward the curb or the road. (My book outlines what I believe he is looking at.)
>>>>
>>>> Driver of the presidential limo, William Greer, apparently had no idea that shots were being fired. The noise of the motorcycles mixed with the sounds of the gunshots, and he interpreted the sound that he heard as a tire blow-out. He tapped his brake to test the tires of the presidential limo (as described in the book The Kennedy Detail by Gerald Blaine).. Meanwhile, Hickey started to take aim on Oswald. He pointed the AR-15 toward Oswald and flipped off the safety on the "ready-to-go" AR-15.
>
>
> If Greer thought there was a blow-out on the limousine, it would be
> obvious to him just in the way it felt as the limo moved. I've had the
> experience and it's obvious when there's a blow-out in the way the car
> rides. No matter why he slowed the limo, it was probably a gift to the
> shooter that fired the kill shot.
>
> I don't know the training for the SS drivers, but I would think that a
> blow-out on a tire might be a ploy of a terrorist group to stop the limo
> so that it would be easier to kill the POTUS. I would think the training
> would be to keep moving for some distance, not stop.
>

Yes, that's what the OAS did, but de Gaulle instantly sped up and ran on
the wheels.

They did not have run flat tires back in 1963.

>
>
>>>>
>>>> With the follow-up car only five feet behind the presidential limo, follow-up car driver Sam Kinney saw the brake lights of the presidential limo come on. Not knowing what driver Greer was going to do, Kinney hit his own brakes hard in order to avoid rear-ending the presidential limo. Meanwhile, SSA Clint Hill noted Jacqueline Kennedy's odd reaction in the presidential limo and began to realize something serious was going on. He prepared to jump off the running board of the follow-up car and run to the back of the presidential limo.
>
>
>
> No need to "prepare" for such an action. Just hop off.
>

And get run over.

>
>
>>>>
>>>> The inertia of the sudden stopping of the follow-up car caused Hickey to lose his balance and fall. Or, alternatively, starting up again after coming to a stop caused Hickey to fall (as witness S.M. Holland described). In any case, the gun went off, just when it was pointed to the back of Kennedy's head.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It did not stop. And for him to fall, first he has to be standing up and
>>> the Bronson film does not show him standing up.
>>
>> In his official report Hickey states he stood up twice when the Limousine
>> was fired on. Does this mean the Bronson film has been tampered with?
>> It is the only film of the motorcade that has not been made available by
>> the Sixth Floor Museum to the research community for close inspection
>> and in-depth analysis. Given the fact it is the second longest film of the
>> Motorcade while under fire that is most curious.
>>
>
>
> It makes sense. The SS didn't want their methods or reactions sent out
> to any would-be killers of the POTUS in the future.
>
>
>
>>
>> George W. Hickey, Jr.
>> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-hicke.htm
>>
>> Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of SS-679-X on the left side.
>> As IOO-X made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed
>> to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.
>>
>
>
> If the follow up car was just turning itself following the limousine,
> then "to the right and rear" would probably be the Dal-Tex building which

You need a map.

[Anthony Marsh]

So what? Didn't happen the way you claim it did.

> SSA stand up with a machine-gun in hand and fall back down. SSA Hickey

We have the photo taken on Stemmons Freeway showing Hickey standing up
with the AR-15. We don't need no damn stinkin witnesses.

Photograph = Hard Evidence.
Witness = hearsay.

> was the only bodyguard that day who picked up the AR-15. The wound

Duh, he was assigned to the AR-15. That was his job.
You can praise him for doing his job, but it was Clint Hill who risked
his life running up and jumping onto the Presidential limo.

> ballistics on the head of the President are more indicative of a high

Wrong. The lead fragments could not have come from an AR-15. They were
unhardened lead like the Carcano. The AR-15 uses hardened lead and thus a
very thin jacket. The Carcano jacket is very thick, more than the original
specs of the Italian SMI.

You've been schooled about this thousands of times and yet you continue to
refuse to admit even one tiny simple fact. ANTIMONY.

> velocity small caliber bullet. The AR-15 produced a 3,000 fps .223
> projectile that was prone to fragment when hitting bone. For that reason

So what? It's a great little bullet. I'll vouch for that.
But it used HARDENED lead. High amounts of antimony.

> there have been protests for the M-16 ammo to be classified as a frangible
> bullet and banned for military use under international law.
>

I understand those complaints. It's not just sour grapes.
But the US Army has a valid counter argument that the ammo was not
designed that way to break up as the Dum-Dum was specifically designed
to create horrific wounds on savages.

> The Carcano 6.5 projectile had the opposite effect. With it's thick metal
> jacket it earned the reputation as the "humanitarian rifle" that drilled
> holes in soldiers instead of tumbling. It was considered a rugged bullet
> less likely to fragment and when it did usually into larger pieces, not a
> "lead snowstorm".
>

Something like that. But the 2 large fragments found in the limo prove
that the bullet can break up into many pieces. Just not the lead storm
that was found in JFK's brain. You need a specially designed frangible or
explosive bullet to do that. No copper jacket was found in the brain.


>
>
>

[bigdog]

The only problem with that argument is the Carcano bullet did fragment as
evidence by the fragments found in the limo. No fragments from any other
bullet were found. No whole bullet from any rifle other than Oswald's was
ever found. There is no forensic evidence that any rifle except Oswald's
was used to kill JFK.

[mainframetech]

On Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 2:39:24 PM UTC-5, claviger wrote:

AHA! So you've just proved that the bullet that went through the head
of JFK was not an FMJ bullet, possibly lead, since it left a path of tiny
particles in its wake. Thank you!

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Almost. One was planted by a conspiracy kook.

[claviger]

On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 5:20:00 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 11/16/2016 2:39 PM, claviger wrote:
>
> >> So are you calling Hickey a liar? Is that your only way out? He says he
> >> didn't pick up the AR-15 until after the SS car pass under the undergpass.
> >> That is long after the head shot.
> >
> > I'm calling Hickey a brave man who stood up twice while the Limousine was
> > under fire trying to locate the source of gunfire. A key witness saw a
>
> So what? Didn't happen the way you claim it did.

Don't need to claim it. SSA Hickey said he tried to stand up twice in his
official report.

> > SSA stand up with a machine-gun in hand and fall back down. SSA Hickey
> We have the photo taken on Stemmons Freeway showing Hickey standing up
> with the AR-15. We don't need no damn stinkin witnesses.

He's not standing up in that photo. He is sitting down with another SSA
in his lap.

> Photograph = Hard Evidence.
> Witness = hearsay.

You're calling Hickey's report hearsay?

> > was the only bodyguard that day who picked up the AR-15. The wound
> Duh, he was assigned to the AR-15. That was his job.

SSA Bennet reached for the rifle too. SSA Hickey already had it in his
hands.

> You can praise him for doing his job, but it was Clint Hill who risked
> his life running up and jumping onto the Presidential limo.

I praise both loyal Secret Service Agents for risking their lives to
Protect the President and First Lady while the Limousine was under fire
from an unknown direction. SSA Hickey may have been the only passenger on
SS-679-X who realized it was coming from above and behind the motorcade.

> > ballistics on the head of the President are more indicative of a high
> Wrong. The lead fragments could not have come from an AR-15. They were
> unhardened lead like the Carcano. The AR-15 uses hardened lead and thus a
> very thin jacket. The Carcano jacket is very thick, more than the original
> specs of the Italian SMI.

Numerous articles discuss the devastating effect of the AR-15/M-16 on
enemy soldiers.

> You've been schooled about this thousands of times and yet you continue to
> refuse to admit even one tiny simple fact. ANTIMONY.

We have discussed this issue several times. As you know Antimony is the
most unstable element in the bullet making process. CABL analysis has
discovered variation of antimony within batch, box, and even the same
bullet.

> > velocity small caliber bullet. The AR-15 produced a 3,000 fps .223
> > projectile that was prone to fragment when hitting bone. For that reason
> So what? It's a great little bullet. I'll vouch for that.
> But it used HARDENED lead. High amounts of antimony.

Too much antimony causes bullets to shatter.

> > there have been protests for the M-16 ammo to be classified as a frangible
> > bullet and banned for military use under international law.
> I understand those complaints. It's not just sour grapes.
> But the US Army has a valid counter argument that the ammo was not
> designed that way to break up as the Dum-Dum was specifically designed
> to create horrific wounds on savages.

Yes, the new concept of extreme velocity, small projectile, and thin
jacket surprised the technicians who designed the rifle. They expected it
might tumble but were amazed it was making wounds similar to a frangible
bullet.

> > The Carcano 6.5 projectile had the opposite effect. With it's thick metal
> > jacket it earned the reputation as the "humanitarian rifle" that drilled
> > holes in soldiers instead of tumbling. It was considered a rugged bullet
> > less likely to fragment and when it did usually into larger pieces, not a
> > "lead snowstorm".
> Something like that. But the 2 large fragments found in the limo prove
> that the bullet can break up into many pieces. Just not the lead storm
> that was found in JFK's brain. You need a specially designed frangible or
> explosive bullet to do that. No copper jacket was found in the brain.

Yes, but Donahue examined those two fragments and no human bio was found
on either one. He asked FBI expert Cortlandt Cunningham if the fragments
had been rinsed or cleaned in any way. The answer was no. Based on that
info Donahue wondered if those mangled fragments were from the first shot
miss that struct the curb.

[mainframetech]

Amazing how wrong you can be with just a few facts to play with.
Yep, the bullet that went through the head of JFK went into tiny fine
particles along the path of the bullet. Not your everyday FMJ bullet.
And even when hitting something substantial, the FMJ bullets stayed mostly
together, like the bullet that struck over the windshield into the chrome
and fell down into the front seat of the limo (CE567 & 569).

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Proven? No. Just suggested one theory.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/18/2016 5:50 PM, claviger wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 5:20:00 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 11/16/2016 2:39 PM, claviger wrote:
>>
>>>> So are you calling Hickey a liar? Is that your only way out? He says he
>>>> didn't pick up the AR-15 until after the SS car pass under the undergpass.
>>>> That is long after the head shot.
>>>
>>> I'm calling Hickey a brave man who stood up twice while the Limousine was
>>> under fire trying to locate the source of gunfire. A key witness saw a
>>
>> So what? Didn't happen the way you claim it did.
>
> Don't need to claim it. SSA Hickey said he tried to stand up twice in his
> official report.
>

So you claim.

>>> SSA stand up with a machine-gun in hand and fall back down. SSA Hickey
>> We have the photo taken on Stemmons Freeway showing Hickey standing up
>> with the AR-15. We don't need no damn stinkin witnesses.
>
> He's not standing up in that photo. He is sitting down with another SSA
> in his lap.
>

Not even sure what you mean. Are you looking at the right photo?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hdblRzSqVO4/UsXpQLeK4PI/AAAAAAAAAWw/VCF__FtyZ6w/s1600/The+Volkland+photo,+taken+from+the+median+of+Stemmons+Freeway+at+present-day+Woodall+Rodgers+Freeway..jpg

>> Photograph = Hard Evidence.
>> Witness = hearsay.
>
> You're calling Hickey's report hearsay?
>

Something like that.

>>> was the only bodyguard that day who picked up the AR-15. The wound
>> Duh, he was assigned to the AR-15. That was his job.
>
> SSA Bennet reached for the rifle too. SSA Hickey already had it in his
> hands.
>
>> You can praise him for doing his job, but it was Clint Hill who risked
>> his life running up and jumping onto the Presidential limo.
>
> I praise both loyal Secret Service Agents for risking their lives to
> Protect the President and First Lady while the Limousine was under fire
> from an unknown direction. SSA Hickey may have been the only passenger on
> SS-679-X who realized it was coming from above and behind the motorcade.
>

Well, what you are trying to do is a phony Argument by Authority.
Much like Trump Nazis who claim that you can never criticize the
military because they risk their lives to protect us.

>
>>> ballistics on the head of the President are more indicative of a high
>> Wrong. The lead fragments could not have come from an AR-15. They were
>> unhardened lead like the Carcano. The AR-15 uses hardened lead and thus a
>> very thin jacket. The Carcano jacket is very thick, more than the original
>> specs of the Italian SMI.
>
> Numerous articles discuss the devastating effect of the AR-15/M-16 on
> enemy soldiers.
>

Yeah, besides the point. Antimony.

>> You've been schooled about this thousands of times and yet you continue to
>> refuse to admit even one tiny simple fact. ANTIMONY.
>
> We have discussed this issue several times. As you know Antimony is the
> most unstable element in the bullet making process. CABL analysis has
> discovered variation of antimony within batch, box, and even the same
> bullet.
>

So what? There are normal ranges. For the Carcano it is 0-2,000.
For the AR-15 is it 20,000-40,000. Not even close.
Just admit simple facts.

>>> velocity small caliber bullet. The AR-15 produced a 3,000 fps .223
>>> projectile that was prone to fragment when hitting bone. For that reason
>> So what? It's a great little bullet. I'll vouch for that.
>> But it used HARDENED lead. High amounts of antimony.
>
> Too much antimony causes bullets to shatter.
>

Silly and ridiculous. AR-15 bullets need at least 2% antimony for
hardening. The Oswald Carcano bullets were unhardened.

>>> there have been protests for the M-16 ammo to be classified as a frangible
>>> bullet and banned for military use under international law.
>> I understand those complaints. It's not just sour grapes.
>> But the US Army has a valid counter argument that the ammo was not
>> designed that way to break up as the Dum-Dum was specifically designed
>> to create horrific wounds on savages.
>
> Yes, the new concept of extreme velocity, small projectile, and thin
> jacket surprised the technicians who designed the rifle. They expected it
> might tumble but were amazed it was making wounds similar to a frangible
> bullet.
>

Tumbling has nothing to do with antimony.

>>> The Carcano 6.5 projectile had the opposite effect. With it's thick metal
>>> jacket it earned the reputation as the "humanitarian rifle" that drilled
>>> holes in soldiers instead of tumbling. It was considered a rugged bullet
>>> less likely to fragment and when it did usually into larger pieces, not a
>>> "lead snowstorm".
>> Something like that. But the 2 large fragments found in the limo prove
>> that the bullet can break up into many pieces. Just not the lead storm
>> that was found in JFK's brain. You need a specially designed frangible or
>> explosive bullet to do that. No copper jacket was found in the brain.
>
> Yes, but Donahue examined those two fragments and no human bio was found
> on either one. He asked FBI expert Cortlandt Cunningham if the fragments

Not by then, and I don't think we need any DNA on those fragments.

> had been rinsed or cleaned in any way. The answer was no. Based on that
> info Donahue wondered if those mangled fragments were from the first shot
> miss that struct the curb.
>

How can you do spectro without clean samples?

>
>

[bigdog]

So you are trying to use your assumptions to refute my statement of fact.
No bullet or fragment of a bullet other than from Oswald's rifle was found
in the limo, at Parkland, or in the bodies of either victim. The tiny
particles lead particles which showed up in the x-rays of the skull were
not enough to comprise a whole bullet so they were deposited there by a
bullet that fragmented and left the body of JFK. The only fragmented
bullet found in the limo came from Oswald's Carcano.

[mainframetech]

There was really no risk of life for the agents. Who would be shot at
but the president?

> > > ballistics on the head of the President are more indicative of a high
> > Wrong. The lead fragments could not have come from an AR-15. They were
> > unhardened lead like the Carcano. The AR-15 uses hardened lead and thus a
> > very thin jacket. The Carcano jacket is very thick, more than the original
> > specs of the Italian SMI.
>
> Numerous articles discuss the devastating effect of the AR-15/M-16 on
> enemy soldiers.
>

So you've decided that an AR15 was involved in the murder? Otherwise
why mention it?

> > You've been schooled about this thousands of times and yet you continue to
> > refuse to admit even one tiny simple fact. ANTIMONY.
>
> We have discussed this issue several times. As you know Antimony is the
> most unstable element in the bullet making process. CABL analysis has
> discovered variation of antimony within batch, box, and even the same
> bullet.
>

CABL analysis is considered no good for matching for detection
purposes. Forget it:

https://wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/2012/02/27/compositional-analysis-of-bullet-lead-cabl-also-called-cbla/

If you check the testimony of Robert Frazier (FBI firearms expert) you
will see that he mentioned that the fragments were wiped clean when found:

"Mr. EISENBERG - Getting back to the two bullet fragments mentioned, Mr.
Frazier, did you alter them in any way after they had been received in the
laboratory, by way of cleaning or otherwise?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; there was a very slight residue of blood or some
other material adhering, but it did not interfere with the examination. It
was wiped off to clean up the bullet for examination, but it actually
would not have been necessary.

Mr. EISENBERG - Is that true on both fragments?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir."

Chris

[bigdog]

How about the guys whose duty it is to put their bodies between the gunman
and the President if need be. Men like former Secret Service agent Tim
McCarthy who stood his ground in front of John Hinckley and took a bullet
intended for Ronald Reagan.

[mainframetech]

> particles of lead which showed up in the x-rays of the skull were

> not enough to comprise a whole bullet so they were deposited there by a
> bullet that fragmented and left the body of JFK. The only fragmented
> bullet found in the limo came from Oswald's Carcano.

WRONG again! The lead debris left in Connally was not from an FMJ type
bullet and was more than the CE399 bullet was missing. Stop forgetting
the critical information when you speak. And you've left out the
scrapings of lead from the windshield strike. You've got one bullet
hitting the head of JFK an doing no damage to the bullet, and you've got a
bullet that also hit the head and left a stream of tiny particles. Make
up your mind what kind of bullets were being used. Are simply admit that
there were more than one type being used.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Do you know what the expression, "taking a bullet" means?
It means that any SS agent would shield the President or his protectee
with his own body and take the bullet intended for his protectee and
sacrifice his own life. As Clint Hill did. Little did they know at the
time that there was more than just the one shooter from behind and that
military bullets were being used that could go right through one man and
kill another.

>
>
>>>> ballistics on the head of the President are more indicative of a high
>>> Wrong. The lead fragments could not have come from an AR-15. They were
>>> unhardened lead like the Carcano. The AR-15 uses hardened lead and thus a
>>> very thin jacket. The Carcano jacket is very thick, more than the original
>>> specs of the Italian SMI.
>>
>> Numerous articles discuss the devastating effect of the AR-15/M-16 on
>> enemy soldiers.
>>
>
>
> So you've decided that an AR15 was involved in the murder? Otherwise
> why mention it?

Because no one else will in this quadrant of the universe.

>
>
>
>>> You've been schooled about this thousands of times and yet you continue to
>>> refuse to admit even one tiny simple fact. ANTIMONY.
>>
>> We have discussed this issue several times. As you know Antimony is the
>> most unstable element in the bullet making process. CABL analysis has
>> discovered variation of antimony within batch, box, and even the same
>> bullet.
>>
>
>
> CABL analysis is considered no good for matching for detection
> purposes. Forget it:
>

I never said it would. But surely anyone can tell the difference between
2,000 ppm and 20,000 ppm. You can rule OUT even if you can't prove a
match.

[Anthony Marsh]

Which means nothing when they were so sloppy handling the evidence.

> particles lead particles which showed up in the x-rays of the skull were
> not enough to comprise a whole bullet so they were deposited there by a
> bullet that fragmented and left the body of JFK. The only fragmented
> bullet found in the limo came from Oswald's Carcano.
>

Maybe, but Frazier couldn't be sure that those two largest fragments
came from one bullet or two. So you can't claim that only two bullet
were recovered.

[mainframetech]

Oh give up the grandstanding! In the case in point, there was no one
between the rifles and JFK. They had been stood down from being with the
limo.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

So, you're new to all this? I have pointed out the same things hundreds
of times before.

[claviger]

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 12:03:02 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 11/18/2016 5:50 PM, claviger wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 5:20:00 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> >> On 11/16/2016 2:39 PM, claviger wrote:
> >>
> >>>> So are you calling Hickey a liar? Is that your only way out? He says he
> >>>> didn't pick up the AR-15 until after the SS car pass under the undergpass.
> >>>> That is long after the head shot.
> >>>
> >>> I'm calling Hickey a brave man who stood up twice while the Limousine was
> >>> under fire trying to locate the source of gunfire. A key witness saw a
> >>
> >> So what? Didn't happen the way you claim it did.
> >
> > Don't need to claim it. SSA Hickey said he tried to stand up twice in his
> > official report.
> So you claim.

Official report.

> >>> SSA stand up with a machine-gun in hand and fall back down. SSA Hickey
> >> We have the photo taken on Stemmons Freeway showing Hickey standing up
> >> with the AR-15. We don't need no damn stinkin witnesses.
> > He's not standing up in that photo. He is sitting down with another SSA
> > in his lap.
> Not even sure what you mean. Are you looking at the right photo?
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hdblRzSqVO4/UsXpQLeK4PI/AAAAAAAAAWw/VCF__FtyZ6w/s1600/The+Volkland+photo,+taken+from+the+median+of+Stemmons+Freeway+at+present-day+Woodall+Rodgers+Freeway..jpg

Hickey is sitting in the back seat with SSA in front of him.

> >> Photograph = Hard Evidence.
> >> Witness = hearsay.
> > You're calling Hickey's report hearsay?
> Something like that.

Hearsay is what someone heard another witness say. A statement or report
of what actions a witness took is considered evidence.

> >>> was the only bodyguard that day who picked up the AR-15. The wound
> >> Duh, he was assigned to the AR-15. That was his job.
> > SSA Bennet reached for the rifle too. SSA Hickey already had it in his
> > hands.
> >> You can praise him for doing his job, but it was Clint Hill who risked
> >> his life running up and jumping onto the Presidential limo.
> > I praise both loyal Secret Service Agents for risking their lives to
> > Protect the President and First Lady while the Limousine was under fire
> > from an unknown direction. SSA Hickey may have been the only passenger on
> > SS-679-X who realized it was coming from above and behind the motorcade.
> Well, what you are trying to do is a phony Argument by Authority.

A witness report to authorities is evidence, not hearsay. They are
explaining what they did and saw. Hearsay is something they overhead
another witness say.

> Much like Trump Nazis who claim that you can never criticize the
> military because they risk their lives to protect us.
> >>> ballistics on the head of the President are more indicative of a high
> >> Wrong. The lead fragments could not have come from an AR-15. They were
> >> unhardened lead like the Carcano. The AR-15 uses hardened lead and thus a
> >> very thin jacket. The Carcano jacket is very thick, more than the original
> >> specs of the Italian SMI.
> > Numerous articles discuss the devastating effect of the AR-15/M-16 on
> > enemy soldiers.
> Yeah, besides the point. Antimony.

Antimony can vary from batch-to-batch, box-to-box, and within one single
bullet.

> >> You've been schooled about this thousands of times and yet you continue to
> >> refuse to admit even one tiny simple fact. ANTIMONY.
> > We have discussed this issue several times. As you know Antimony is the
> > most unstable element in the bullet making process. CABL analysis has
> > discovered variation of antimony within batch, box, and even the same
> > bullet.
> So what? There are normal ranges. For the Carcano it is 0-2,000.
> For the AR-15 is it 20,000-40,000. Not even close.
> Just admit simple facts.

Depends on the fragment tested.

> >>> velocity small caliber bullet. The AR-15 produced a 3,000 fps .223
> >>> projectile that was prone to fragment when hitting bone. For that reason
> >> So what? It's a great little bullet. I'll vouch for that.
> >> But it used HARDENED lead. High amounts of antimony.
> > Too much antimony causes bullets to shatter.
> Silly and ridiculous. AR-15 bullets need at least 2% antimony for
> hardening. The Oswald Carcano bullets were unhardened.

"Antimony (Sb) melts at 1167o F. It is the current metal used to
strengthen/harden lead alloys for bullet casters and for numerous
applications in the metals industry. It is an extremely brittle metal but
has unique characteristics in a lead alloy in addition to its basic
hardening, such as the ability to heat treat a lead alloy bringing the
final hardness up far more than what the percentage of antimony would
suggest.

Alloys such as monotype (19% Sb) and stereotype (23% Sb) are so brittle
that bullets cast of them can actually break in two by simply chambering a
round or dropping it on the floor."

http://www.lasc.us/castbulletalloy.htm

> >>> there have been protests for the M-16 ammo to be classified as a frangible
> >>> bullet and banned for military use under international law.
> >> I understand those complaints. It's not just sour grapes.
> >> But the US Army has a valid counter argument that the ammo was not
> >> designed that way to break up as the Dum-Dum was specifically designed
> >> to create horrific wounds on savages.
> > Yes, the new concept of extreme velocity, small projectile, and thin
> > jacket surprised the technicians who designed the rifle. They expected it
> > might tumble but were amazed it was making wounds similar to a frangible
> > bullet.
> Tumbling has nothing to do with antimony.

Brilliant observation.

> >>> The Carcano 6.5 projectile had the opposite effect. With it's thick metal
> >>> jacket it earned the reputation as the "humanitarian rifle" that drilled
> >>> holes in soldiers instead of tumbling. It was considered a rugged bullet
> >>> less likely to fragment and when it did usually into larger pieces, not a
> >>> "lead snowstorm".
> >> Something like that. But the 2 large fragments found in the limo prove
> >> that the bullet can break up into many pieces. Just not the lead storm
> >> that was found in JFK's brain. You need a specially designed frangible or
> >> explosive bullet to do that. No copper jacket was found in the brain.
> > Yes, but Donahue examined those two fragments and no human bio was found
> > on either one. He asked FBI expert Cortlandt Cunningham if the fragments
> Not by then, and I don't think we need any DNA on those fragments.

So we don't know if these bullets passed through a human being or not?

> > had been rinsed or cleaned in any way. The answer was no. Based on that
> > info Donahue wondered if those mangled fragments were from the first shot
> > miss that struct the curb.
> How can you do spectro without clean samples?

Bullet fragments might have been wiped off but were they soaked in hot
water with soap? If these fragments passed through a human being there
would be bio (blood, fluid, flesh, tissue) imbedded into the creases and
folds of these mangled bullet fragments. Simply wiping off would not
remove all the bio from these two fragments.

[bigdog]

Just how did you determine that, Sherlock?

> Stop forgetting
> the critical information when you speak. And you've left out the
> scrapings of lead from the windshield strike. You've got one bullet
> hitting the head of JFK an doing no damage to the bullet,

When did I write that?

> and you've got a
> bullet that also hit the head and left a stream of tiny particles. Make
> up your mind what kind of bullets were being used. Are simply admit that
> there were more than one type being used.
>

I guess you don't think it matters what the bullet hit. If you drive your
car into a bush do you think it will sustain the same damage as it would
if you hit a tree?

[Anthony Marsh]

How can you claim that when you can't even admit that it exists.
Tell me what fragments you mean.

> the critical information when you speak. And you've left out the
> scrapings of lead from the windshield strike. You've got one bullet

What about them? They don't have to come from CE 399.
You ask too much from the Magic Bullet.

> hitting the head of JFK an doing no damage to the bullet, and you've got a

No one has a bullet which hit the head of JFK and did no damage to the
bullet. You are making up crap.

> bullet that also hit the head and left a stream of tiny particles. Make
> up your mind what kind of bullets were being used. Are simply admit that
> there were more than one type being used.
>

Thanks Captain Obvious.

> Chris
>

[bigdog]

Which was the way JFK wanted it. His choice. It likely cost him his life.
I have no doubt that had they been on the bumper one of them would have
done what McCarthy would do 17 years later. What Rufus Youngblood did with
LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
political concerns won out.

You scoffed at the idea that Secret Service agents put their lives on the
line in order to protect the President. The facts do not bear you out.
Just recently when there was a perceived threat to Trump during a campaign
stop his protection detail immediately formed a human shield around
him.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2882077/secret-service-form-human-shield-around-donald-trump-as-candidate-is-rushed-on-stage-at-ohio-rally-video/

In the attempted assassination of Truman, a uniformed SS officer was
killed and two others wounded in the attack. The slain officer was Leslie
Coffelt who after being shot four times managed to draw his gun and kill
the assailant with a single shot to the head. Coffelt died about four
hours later. Both the uniform and plainclothes agents of the Secret
Service accept the duty of protecting the President with their lives if
necessary and they have performed that duty on a number of occasions.

[mainframetech]

Well Watson, you can see that there was almost nothing missing from the CE399 bullet:

https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/11/Photo_ce399_base.jpg

Note the missing small plug of metal which was a sample taken by the FBI. Compare that with the 4 bits of metal from the wrist of Connally:

http://www.jfk-info.com/33-3397a.gif

Then add on the fragments that were left in Connally, and it's OBVIOUS and clear that they would be too large for the CE399 bullet.

> > Stop forgetting
> > the critical information when you speak. And you've left out the
> > scrapings of lead from the windshield strike. You've got one bullet
> > hitting the head of JFK an doing no damage to the bullet,
>
> When did I write that?
>
> > and you've got a
> > bullet that also hit the head and left a stream of tiny particles. Make

> > up your mind what kind of bullets were being used. Or simply admit that

> > there were more than one type being used.
> >
>
> I guess you don't think it matters what the bullet hit. If you drive your
> car into a bush do you think it will sustain the same damage as it would
> if you hit a tree?

I tend to drive straight. Do you have one of those problems?

Chris

[mainframetech]

The 2 fragments CE567 & 569 were wiped off at one point and no testing for biological material was done. Here's WC testimony from Robert Frazier:

"Mr. EISENBERG - Getting back to the two bullet fragments mentioned, Mr.
Frazier, did you alter them in any way after they had been received in the
laboratory, by way of cleaning or otherwise?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; there was a very slight residue of blood or some
other material adhering, but it did not interfere with the examination. It
was wiped off to clean up the bullet for examination, but it actually
would not have been necessary.

Mr. EISENBERG - Is that true on both fragments?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG - You also mentioned there was blood or some other substance
on the bullet marked 399. Is this an off-hand determination, or was there
a test to determine what the substance was?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, there was no test made of the materials."

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Tests.

>> Stop forgetting
>> the critical information when you speak. And you've left out the
>> scrapings of lead from the windshield strike. You've got one bullet
>> hitting the head of JFK an doing no damage to the bullet,
>
> When did I write that?
>
>> and you've got a
>> bullet that also hit the head and left a stream of tiny particles. Make
>> up your mind what kind of bullets were being used. Are simply admit that
>> there were more than one type being used.
>>
>
> I guess you don't think it matters what the bullet hit. If you drive your
> car into a bush do you think it will sustain the same damage as it would
> if you hit a tree?
>

No, we're trying to get you to back up your claims.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/22/2016 2:07 PM, claviger wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 12:03:02 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 11/18/2016 5:50 PM, claviger wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 5:20:00 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>>>> On 11/16/2016 2:39 PM, claviger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> So are you calling Hickey a liar? Is that your only way out? He says he
>>>>>> didn't pick up the AR-15 until after the SS car pass under the undergpass.
>>>>>> That is long after the head shot.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm calling Hickey a brave man who stood up twice while the Limousine was
>>>>> under fire trying to locate the source of gunfire. A key witness saw a
>>>>
>>>> So what? Didn't happen the way you claim it did.
>>>
>>> Don't need to claim it. SSA Hickey said he tried to stand up twice in his
>>> official report.
>> So you claim.
>
> Official report.
>
>>>>> SSA stand up with a machine-gun in hand and fall back down. SSA Hickey
>>>> We have the photo taken on Stemmons Freeway showing Hickey standing up
>>>> with the AR-15. We don't need no damn stinkin witnesses.
>>> He's not standing up in that photo. He is sitting down with another SSA
>>> in his lap.
>> Not even sure what you mean. Are you looking at the right photo?
>> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hdblRzSqVO4/UsXpQLeK4PI/AAAAAAAAAWw/VCF__FtyZ6w/s1600/The+Volkland+photo,+taken+from+the+median+of+Stemmons+Freeway+at+present-day+Woodall+Rodgers+Freeway..jpg
>
> Hickey is sitting in the back seat with SSA in front of him.
>

I just can't keep up with your delusions. Seek help.

>>>> Photograph = Hard Evidence.
>>>> Witness = hearsay.
>>> You're calling Hickey's report hearsay?
>> Something like that.
>
> Hearsay is what someone heard another witness say. A statement or report
> of what actions a witness took is considered evidence.
>

Yes, a government agent writes down what a witness told him.
Not sworn testimony. Not recorded.

>>>>> was the only bodyguard that day who picked up the AR-15. The wound
>>>> Duh, he was assigned to the AR-15. That was his job.
>>> SSA Bennet reached for the rifle too. SSA Hickey already had it in his
>>> hands.
>>>> You can praise him for doing his job, but it was Clint Hill who risked
>>>> his life running up and jumping onto the Presidential limo.
>>> I praise both loyal Secret Service Agents for risking their lives to
>>> Protect the President and First Lady while the Limousine was under fire
>>> from an unknown direction. SSA Hickey may have been the only passenger on
>>> SS-679-X who realized it was coming from above and behind the motorcade.
>> Well, what you are trying to do is a phony Argument by Authority.
>
> A witness report to authorities is evidence, not hearsay. They are

Hearsay can be evidence. You are misusing words to prop up your kook
theory. Are you trying to be a mainframe tech?

> explaining what they did and saw. Hearsay is something they overhead
> another witness say.
>

Take your mumbo jumbo somewhere else.

>> Much like Trump Nazis who claim that you can never criticize the
>> military because they risk their lives to protect us.
>>>>> ballistics on the head of the President are more indicative of a high
>>>> Wrong. The lead fragments could not have come from an AR-15. They were
>>>> unhardened lead like the Carcano. The AR-15 uses hardened lead and thus a
>>>> very thin jacket. The Carcano jacket is very thick, more than the original
>>>> specs of the Italian SMI.
>>> Numerous articles discuss the devastating effect of the AR-15/M-16 on
>>> enemy soldiers.
>> Yeah, besides the point. Antimony.
>
> Antimony can vary from batch-to-batch, box-to-box, and within one single
> bullet.
>

Ignorant. I am not talking about an exact ppm.
I am talking about ranges of values.
Just stop your silliness and admit simple facts.

>>>> You've been schooled about this thousands of times and yet you continue to
>>>> refuse to admit even one tiny simple fact. ANTIMONY.
>>> We have discussed this issue several times. As you know Antimony is the
>>> most unstable element in the bullet making process. CABL analysis has
>>> discovered variation of antimony within batch, box, and even the same
>>> bullet.
>> So what? There are normal ranges. For the Carcano it is 0-2,000.
>> For the AR-15 is it 20,000-40,000. Not even close.
>> Just admit simple facts.
>
> Depends on the fragment tested.

No, I am talking about ranges.
You obviously never took science because you obviously never went to
high school.

>
>>>>> velocity small caliber bullet. The AR-15 produced a 3,000 fps .223
>>>>> projectile that was prone to fragment when hitting bone. For that reason
>>>> So what? It's a great little bullet. I'll vouch for that.
>>>> But it used HARDENED lead. High amounts of antimony.
>>> Too much antimony causes bullets to shatter.
>> Silly and ridiculous. AR-15 bullets need at least 2% antimony for
>> hardening. The Oswald Carcano bullets were unhardened.
>
> "Antimony (Sb) melts at 1167o F. It is the current metal used to
> strengthen/harden lead alloys for bullet casters and for numerous
> applications in the metals industry. It is an extremely brittle metal but
> has unique characteristics in a lead alloy in addition to its basic
> hardening, such as the ability to heat treat a lead alloy bringing the
> final hardness up far more than what the percentage of antimony would
> suggest.
>

Silly. Ken and I have been over this hundreds of times. I am suggesting
that they simply dropped cold hardened lead waste into molten lead. Small
nuggets with antimony levels in the thousands of ppm will mix with
unhardened lead near 0% antimony and produce a range of 0-2000 ppm
antimony. The AR-15 used hardened lead with antimony levels of at least
20,000 ppm.

Why do I bother arguing with a country hick who had no education? Because
I don't care about YOU. YOU are beyond redemption. But some time in the
future some curious lurker will look up the Hickey theory and want o
understand the difference in antimony levels.

> Alloys such as monotype (19% Sb) and stereotype (23% Sb) are so brittle
> that bullets cast of them can actually break in two by simply chambering a
> round or dropping it on the floor."
>

We're not talking about that alloy right now.

I wouldn't say that. We might be able to prove it or infer it.
Maybe if you guys would stop destroying the evidence.

>
>>> had been rinsed or cleaned in any way. The answer was no. Based on that
>>> info Donahue wondered if those mangled fragments were from the first shot
>>> miss that struct the curb.
>> How can you do spectro without clean samples?
>
> Bullet fragments might have been wiped off but were they soaked in hot
> water with soap? If these fragments passed through a human being there
> would be bio (blood, fluid, flesh, tissue) imbedded into the creases and
> folds of these mangled bullet fragments. Simply wiping off would not
> remove all the bio from these two fragments.
>

I think some moron suggested that before and nothing ever came of it.
Remember, the government does not want to test the evidence and look for
the truth.

>
>

[bigdog]

As is your custom, you follow the word "obvious" with a completely
baseless claim. For emphasis you put "obvious" in all caps and threw in
"clear". Do you think that makes your claim any less baseless. It didn't
work.

>
>
>
> > > Stop forgetting
> > > the critical information when you speak. And you've left out the
> > > scrapings of lead from the windshield strike. You've got one bullet
> > > hitting the head of JFK an doing no damage to the bullet,
> >
> > When did I write that?
> >
> > > and you've got a
> > > bullet that also hit the head and left a stream of tiny particles. Make
> > > up your mind what kind of bullets were being used. Or simply admit that
> > > there were more than one type being used.
> > >
> >
> > I guess you don't think it matters what the bullet hit. If you drive your
> > car into a bush do you think it will sustain the same damage as it would
> > if you hit a tree?
>
>
> I tend to drive straight. Do you have one of those problems?
>

A guess analogies are not your strong suit.

Let me see if I can explain it to you so you can understand. When a
projectile (bullet or car for the sake of this discussion) strikes an
object, the amount of damage sustained by the projectile is largely going
to be determined by the amount of resistance of the object it strikes. In
the case of the car, a bush offers less resistance than a tree so striking
the bush will result in less damage to the car. In the case of a bullet,
soft tissue will offer less resistance than the dense bone of the skull so
a bullet would sustain less damage. To take it a step further, if a car
plows through several rows of bushes before striking a tree it will likely
sustain less damage than if the tree was the first object it struck
because the bushes would slow the car down and cushion the blow.

[Anthony Marsh]

Physically impossible. And maybe he could shield the President from the
rear, but he couldn't also shield the President from the grassy knoll.

> LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
> the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
> political concerns won out.
>

Need I remind you that at some points Clint Hill was riding on the back
bumper? Did that prevent the assassination? You could run with this and
write a movie where there were 7 more assassins before Dealey Plaza, maybe
on Main Street, but they couldn't get a clear shot because Clint Hill on
the bumper blocked their shots.

> You scoffed at the idea that Secret Service agents put their lives on the
> line in order to protect the President. The facts do not bear you out.
> Just recently when there was a perceived threat to Trump during a campaign
> stop his protection detail immediately formed a human shield around
> him.
>

How about an alternative theory?
Last time I counted Trump only had 10 SS agents protecting him. So you
could claim that Obama is intentionally cutting back on the SS
protection in hopes that some assassin will get lucky.

> http://www.inquisitr.com/2882077/secret-service-form-human-shield-around-donald-trump-as-candidate-is-rushed-on-stage-at-ohio-rally-video/
>
> In the attempted assassination of Truman, a uniformed SS officer was
> killed and two others wounded in the attack. The slain officer was Leslie
> Coffelt who after being shot four times managed to draw his gun and kill
> the assailant with a single shot to the head. Coffelt died about four
> hours later. Both the uniform and plainclothes agents of the Secret
> Service accept the duty of protecting the President with their lives if
> necessary and they have performed that duty on a number of occasions.
>

You've never known a SS agent or had dinner with him, have you?

[mainframetech]

WRONG! Check into that statement that JFK wanted it that way. It's
wrong. Many of the SS agents stated that JFK was easy to work with and
gave the agents complete control and never went against their choices.
He never gave orders, especially not the way Floyd Boring passed on the
message about staying away from the limo. Boring is among the list of
suspects in the conspiracy.

> I have no doubt that had they been on the bumper one of them would have
> done what McCarthy would do 17 years later. What Rufus Youngblood did with
> LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
> the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
> political concerns won out.
>

There were no political concerns, that is a red herring made up by a
few of the SS agents and begun by Floyd Boring.

> You scoffed at the idea that Secret Service agents put their lives on the
> line in order to protect the President. The facts do not bear you out.

WRONG! I did not scoff. I pointed out that the situation was not as
dangerous as it might have been, since JFK would be the target, not the SS
agents.

> Just recently when there was a perceived threat to Trump during a campaign
> stop his protection detail immediately formed a human shield around
> him.
>
> http://www.inquisitr.com/2882077/secret-service-form-human-shield-around-donald-trump-as-candidate-is-rushed-on-stage-at-ohio-rally-video/
>

What a shame. In that case, the job is dangerous. But when shots are
coming from far away, it's not so dangerous, and the target is still the
POTUS.

> In the attempted assassination of Truman, a uniformed SS officer was
> killed and two others wounded in the attack. The slain officer was Leslie
> Coffelt who after being shot four times managed to draw his gun and kill
> the assailant with a single shot to the head. Coffelt died about four
> hours later. Both the uniform and plainclothes agents of the Secret
> Service accept the duty of protecting the President with their lives if
> necessary and they have performed that duty on a number of occasions.

We all know the general rules for the SS agents. Tell me then why
when the shooting began and JFK was hit and raised his arms and put his
hands on his throat, why didn't Kellerman from the front seat, vault over
the bar and cover JFK? Of course, he was the one SS agent that was
instrumental in stealing the body of JFK from Dallas medical examiner,
which was critical to keep the conspiracy covered up.

Chris

[claviger]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-r4r-rFgaUgM/VLi_b6mPEJI/AAAAAAAACfI/mYgFqXC3SbU/s1600/shot0019.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WqJIFnX0wMQ/VLjB4hmgo5I/AAAAAAAACfU/rcGY27fCxvY/s1600/shot0021.png

http://media.philly.com/images/jfk-hickey-with-rifle.jpg
http://media.philly.com/images/jfk-hickey-with-rifle.jpg

https://kennedykilledhimself.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/11.jpg
https://kennedykilledhimself.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/20131113_jfk_secretservice_600.jpg

[mainframetech]

Giving your opinion of my statement wasn't any kind of evidence, and so
means nothing. The word OBVIOUS is understood by many and is for them,
not for you. It's OBVIOUS that you will try to nit-pick it, if only to
get away from a difficult question.

Not much of an example. Anything hitting the head will have to hit
the skull first.

Chris

[bigdog]

I just watched The Kennedy Detail again and several of the agents said JFK
let them know in a nice way he preferred that they not ride on the bumper
because he was in campaign mode. He told them he couldn't get elected
dogcatcher if he didn't make himself available to the public. He didn't
order them not to ride the bumper. He just strongly suggested it.

>
>
>
> > I have no doubt that had they been on the bumper one of them would have
> > done what McCarthy would do 17 years later. What Rufus Youngblood did with
> > LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
> > the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
> > political concerns won out.
> >
>
>
> There were no political concerns, that is a red herring made up by a
> few of the SS agents and begun by Floyd Boring.
>

And you know this how? Oh that's right. The same way you "know"
everything. You just assumed it.

>
>
> > You scoffed at the idea that Secret Service agents put their lives on the
> > line in order to protect the President. The facts do not bear you out.
>
>
>
> WRONG! I did not scoff. I pointed out that the situation was not as
> dangerous as it might have been, since JFK would be the target, not the SS
> agents.
>

If JFK was the target, their job was to make themselves the target by
shielding the President with their bodies.

>
>
> > Just recently when there was a perceived threat to Trump during a campaign
> > stop his protection detail immediately formed a human shield around
> > him.
> >
> > http://www.inquisitr.com/2882077/secret-service-form-human-shield-around-donald-trump-as-candidate-is-rushed-on-stage-at-ohio-rally-video/
> >
>
>
> What a shame. In that case, the job is dangerous. But when shots are
> coming from far away, it's not so dangerous, and the target is still the
> POTUS.
>

When the President is under fire, it is the job of the SS to get between
him and the gunman, shielding the President with their bodies if
necessary. That is what Clint Hill was attempting to do but he didn't get
there in time. In his 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace he said he
thought if he had reacted just a little quicker he might have gotten their
in time to take the bullet for JFK. He said that if that had cost him his
life that would have been just fine with him.

>
>
> > In the attempted assassination of Truman, a uniformed SS officer was
> > killed and two others wounded in the attack. The slain officer was Leslie
> > Coffelt who after being shot four times managed to draw his gun and kill
> > the assailant with a single shot to the head. Coffelt died about four
> > hours later. Both the uniform and plainclothes agents of the Secret
> > Service accept the duty of protecting the President with their lives if
> > necessary and they have performed that duty on a number of occasions.
>
>
> We all know the general rules for the SS agents. Tell me then why
> when the shooting began and JFK was hit and raised his arms and put his
> hands on his throat, why didn't Kellerman from the front seat, vault over
> the bar and cover JFK? Of course, he was the one SS agent that was
> instrumental in stealing the body of JFK from Dallas medical examiner,
> which was critical to keep the conspiracy covered up.
>

You would have to ask Kellerman that. My guess is that by the time he
figure out what was happening, it was too late.

[Anthony Marsh]

So, your only way out is to claim that the SS were part of the plot and
they lied about JFK's comments during the Tampa trip. Can't you go farther
and claim that they pulled the triggers?

[Anthony Marsh]

Nothing wrong with that.

Blaine tells us what happened in a 2010 interview on C-SPAN :

While the motorcade is passing through an area of Tampa with few
people, JFK tells ASAIC Floyd Boring, "Floyd, tell the Ivy League
Charlatans to get off the car." Floyd in turn, radios Blaine in the lead
car up ahead, "The President wants the Ivy League Charlatans off the car."
As soon as the motorcade slows enough the two bumper riders retreated to
the follow-up car.

JFK told Floyd, "if I didn't get out and shake hands with the people,
I couldn't get elected dog catcher." He said for this trip and the trip
down in Texas, "I don't want the agents riding on the back of the car."

>>
>>
>>
>>> I have no doubt that had they been on the bumper one of them would have
>>> done what McCarthy would do 17 years later. What Rufus Youngblood did with
>>> LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
>>> the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
>>> political concerns won out.
>>>
>>
>>
>> There were no political concerns, that is a red herring made up by a
>> few of the SS agents and begun by Floyd Boring.
>>
>
> And you know this how? Oh that's right. The same way you "know"
> everything. You just assumed it.

Oh, maybe he was there.

[mainframetech]

There were 2 sides to the argument within the SS and you picked the one
story that chose one of the sides, that being the side that said that JFK
gave an order to the SS agents to stay off the limo. But if that were so,
why would there be 2 agents pacing the limousine who had to be called off
to stand down?


To make as decision, you need to go listen to the other side at one of
the Vince Palamara websites. There are many agents that stated that JFK
NEVER told the agents anything and he acceded to their wishes in all
situations.

> > > I have no doubt that had they been on the bumper one of them would have
> > > done what McCarthy would do 17 years later. What Rufus Youngblood did with
> > > LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
> > > the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
> > > political concerns won out.
> > >
> >
> >
> > There were no political concerns, that is a red herring made up by a
> > few of the SS agents and begun by Floyd Boring.
> >
>
> And you know this how? Oh that's right. The same way you "know"
> everything. You just assumed it.
>

WRONG! No assumption. The knowledge comes from looking into the
situation, which OBVIOUSLY you haven't. Floyd Boring was heard bringing
up the supposed order from JFK after Florida which even contained an
insult, yet other agents stated that JFK never did that kind of thing.
When the agents also stated that there was never a problem with JFK
issuing orders, it became OBVIOUS that Boring had made it up.

> > > You scoffed at the idea that Secret Service agents put their lives on the
> > > line in order to protect the President. The facts do not bear you out.
> >
> >
> >
> > WRONG! I did not scoff. I pointed out that the situation was not as
> > dangerous as it might have been, since JFK would be the target, not the SS
> > agents.
> >
>
> If JFK was the target, their job was to make themselves the target by
> shielding the President with their bodies.
>

Then why didn't Kellerman jump over the bar and cover JFK when bullets
were flying into the limo? Was he trying to avoid the bullets that were
still to come when Greer stopped the limo? Clint Hill was the only one
who did his job the way they were supposed to. But too late maybe because
he was stood down' from pacing the limo at the airfield. He could have
been riding on the left rear bumper platform.

> >
> >
> > > Just recently when there was a perceived threat to Trump during a campaign
> > > stop his protection detail immediately formed a human shield around
> > > him.
> > >
> > > http://www.inquisitr.com/2882077/secret-service-form-human-shield-around-donald-trump-as-candidate-is-rushed-on-stage-at-ohio-rally-video/
> > >
> >
> >
> > What a shame. In that case, the job is dangerous. But when shots are
> > coming from far away, it's not so dangerous, and the target is still the
> > POTUS.
> >
>
> When the President is under fire, it is the job of the SS to get between
> him and the gunman, shielding the President with their bodies if
> necessary. That is what Clint Hill was attempting to do but he didn't get
> there in time. In his 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace he said he
> thought if he had reacted just a little quicker he might have gotten their
> in time to take the bullet for JFK. He said that if that had cost him his
> life that would have been just fine with him.
>

If Clint Hill hadn't been stood down at the airfield, he might have
been in time to cover the POTUS and Jackie. It didn't help that Greer
almost stopped the limo, when the bullets were flying. That seemed to
help the kill shot.

> >
> >
> > > In the attempted assassination of Truman, a uniformed SS officer was
> > > killed and two others wounded in the attack. The slain officer was Leslie
> > > Coffelt who after being shot four times managed to draw his gun and kill
> > > the assailant with a single shot to the head. Coffelt died about four
> > > hours later. Both the uniform and plainclothes agents of the Secret
> > > Service accept the duty of protecting the President with their lives if
> > > necessary and they have performed that duty on a number of occasions.
> >
> >
> > We all know the general rules for the SS agents. Tell me then why
> > when the shooting began and JFK was hit and raised his arms and put his
> > hands on his throat, why didn't Kellerman from the front seat, vault over
> > the bar and cover JFK? Of course, he was the one SS agent that was
> > instrumental in stealing the body of JFK from Dallas medical examiner,
> > which was critical to keep the conspiracy covered up.
> >
>
> You would have to ask Kellerman that. My guess is that by the time he
> figure out what was happening, it was too late.

Not very good training, eh?

Chris

[bigdog]

Still sticking to that phony narrative? There was no stand down order. One
of the agents was Lawton and he wasn't even part of the protection detail
going into Dallas. His assignment was always to stay behind and secure the
airport and the plane. It would have been pretty silly for him to hop on
the bumper if he wasn't going to accompany the motorcade. The other agent
was Hill who didn't stand down either. He dropped back and hopped on the
running board of the follow up car which is where JFK preferred he be.

>
> To make as decision, you need to go listen to the other side at one of
> the Vince Palamara websites.

Why would anyone ever need to go to one of Palmara's websites. He's a
kook.

> There are many agents that stated that JFK
> NEVER told the agents anything and he acceded to their wishes in all
> situations.
>

Once again I see no quotes. Just empty claims.

>
>
> > > > I have no doubt that had they been on the bumper one of them would have
> > > > done what McCarthy would do 17 years later. What Rufus Youngblood did with
> > > > LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
> > > > the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
> > > > political concerns won out.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There were no political concerns, that is a red herring made up by a
> > > few of the SS agents and begun by Floyd Boring.
> > >
> >
> > And you know this how? Oh that's right. The same way you "know"
> > everything. You just assumed it.
> >
>
>
> WRONG! No assumption. The knowledge comes from looking into the
> situation, which OBVIOUSLY you haven't.

There's that word "obviously" again which of course accompanies a baseless
claim by you.

> Floyd Boring was heard bringing
> up the supposed order from JFK after Florida which even contained an
> insult, yet other agents stated that JFK never did that kind of thing.
> When the agents also stated that there was never a problem with JFK
> issuing orders, it became OBVIOUS that Boring had made it up.
>

Once again "obvious" goes with a claim for which you have produced no
supporting evidence.

>
>
> > > > You scoffed at the idea that Secret Service agents put their lives on the
> > > > line in order to protect the President. The facts do not bear you out.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > WRONG! I did not scoff. I pointed out that the situation was not as
> > > dangerous as it might have been, since JFK would be the target, not the SS
> > > agents.
> > >
> >
> > If JFK was the target, their job was to make themselves the target by
> > shielding the President with their bodies.
> >
>
>
> Then why didn't Kellerman jump over the bar and cover JFK when bullets
> were flying into the limo? Was he trying to avoid the bullets that were
> still to come when Greer stopped the limo? Clint Hill was the only one
> who did his job the way they were supposed to. But too late maybe because
> he was stood down' from pacing the limo at the airfield. He could have
> been riding on the left rear bumper platform.
>

He didn't stand down. He was where he was supposed to be. On the running
board of the follow up car. There is no doubt the agents were slow to
react because it took them several seconds to realize what was happening.
By that time it was too late. Had protective action been taken immediately
with the first shot it's possible one of them might have got there in time
to stop the head shot but we'll never know that for sure.

>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Just recently when there was a perceived threat to Trump during a campaign
> > > > stop his protection detail immediately formed a human shield around
> > > > him.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.inquisitr.com/2882077/secret-service-form-human-shield-around-donald-trump-as-candidate-is-rushed-on-stage-at-ohio-rally-video/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What a shame. In that case, the job is dangerous. But when shots are
> > > coming from far away, it's not so dangerous, and the target is still the
> > > POTUS.
> > >
> >
> > When the President is under fire, it is the job of the SS to get between
> > him and the gunman, shielding the President with their bodies if
> > necessary. That is what Clint Hill was attempting to do but he didn't get
> > there in time. In his 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace he said he
> > thought if he had reacted just a little quicker he might have gotten their
> > in time to take the bullet for JFK. He said that if that had cost him his
> > life that would have been just fine with him.
> >
>
>
> If Clint Hill hadn't been stood down at the airfield, he might have
> been in time to cover the POTUS and Jackie. It didn't help that Greer
> almost stopped the limo, when the bullets were flying. That seemed to
> help the kill shot.
>

Once again, he did not stand down. He assumed his assigned place on the
running board of the follow up car which is where JFK wanted his agents.
That's not a stand down. That's a deployment.

>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > In the attempted assassination of Truman, a uniformed SS officer was
> > > > killed and two others wounded in the attack. The slain officer was Leslie
> > > > Coffelt who after being shot four times managed to draw his gun and kill
> > > > the assailant with a single shot to the head. Coffelt died about four
> > > > hours later. Both the uniform and plainclothes agents of the Secret
> > > > Service accept the duty of protecting the President with their lives if
> > > > necessary and they have performed that duty on a number of occasions.
> > >
> > >
> > > We all know the general rules for the SS agents. Tell me then why
> > > when the shooting began and JFK was hit and raised his arms and put his
> > > hands on his throat, why didn't Kellerman from the front seat, vault over
> > > the bar and cover JFK? Of course, he was the one SS agent that was
> > > instrumental in stealing the body of JFK from Dallas medical examiner,
> > > which was critical to keep the conspiracy covered up.
> > >
> >
> > You would have to ask Kellerman that. My guess is that by the time he
> > figure out what was happening, it was too late.
>
>
> Not very good training, eh?
>

It's good to get training but nothing can prepare you for the real thing.

[Anthony Marsh]

There are not 2 sides. People can disagree with JFK's orders, that's find.
But that is not 2 sides to the story. There was no stand down. Just kooks
making up stories.

>
> To make as decision, you need to go listen to the other side at one of
> the Vince Palamara websites. There are many agents that stated that JFK
> NEVER told the agents anything and he acceded to their wishes in all
> situations.
>

Again, there is no other side. We know what Kennedy said and what the
orders were. You can disagree with the orders, but you can't make up your
own facts from your over-active imagination.

>
>
>>>> I have no doubt that had they been on the bumper one of them would have
>>>> done what McCarthy would do 17 years later. What Rufus Youngblood did with
>>>> LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
>>>> the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
>>>> political concerns won out.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There were no political concerns, that is a red herring made up by a
>>> few of the SS agents and begun by Floyd Boring.
>>>
>>
>> And you know this how? Oh that's right. The same way you "know"
>> everything. You just assumed it.
>>
>
>
> WRONG! No assumption. The knowledge comes from looking into the
> situation, which OBVIOUSLY you haven't. Floyd Boring was heard bringing
> up the supposed order from JFK after Florida which even contained an
> insult, yet other agents stated that JFK never did that kind of thing.
> When the agents also stated that there was never a problem with JFK
> issuing orders, it became OBVIOUS that Boring had made it up.
>
>

You haven't done ANY research. All you have is your over=active
imagination. You have never looked at all the photographs and films of all
the motorcades. I have. You refuse to do ANY research.

>
>>>> You scoffed at the idea that Secret Service agents put their lives on the
>>>> line in order to protect the President. The facts do not bear you out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> WRONG! I did not scoff. I pointed out that the situation was not as
>>> dangerous as it might have been, since JFK would be the target, not the SS
>>> agents.
>>>
>>
>> If JFK was the target, their job was to make themselves the target by
>> shielding the President with their bodies.
>>
>
>
> Then why didn't Kellerman jump over the bar and cover JFK when bullets
> were flying into the limo? Was he trying to avoid the bullets that were

Silly. He slow to react and didn't realize that there was a shooting
until it was too late. How come Greer didn't immediately speed up. You
will never answer that. You will always cover up for the Secret Service.

> still to come when Greer stopped the limo? Clint Hill was the only one

Stop saying things that are not true. Greer did not stop the limo.

> who did his job the way they were supposed to. But too late maybe because

He blamed himself because he was so slow to react. Maybe he had one
drink too many. But you'll cover up for him.

> he was stood down' from pacing the limo at the airfield. He could have

He was not stood down. He pulled back to his normal position on the
running board.

> been riding on the left rear bumper platform.

He WAS, several times earlier in the motorcade, crouched down.
So show me your drawing that shows that Clint Hill crouched down on the
LEFT rear bumper would block a shot from the TSBD.

>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Just recently when there was a perceived threat to Trump during a campaign
>>>> stop his protection detail immediately formed a human shield around
>>>> him.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.inquisitr.com/2882077/secret-service-form-human-shield-around-donald-trump-as-candidate-is-rushed-on-stage-at-ohio-rally-video/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What a shame. In that case, the job is dangerous. But when shots are
>>> coming from far away, it's not so dangerous, and the target is still the
>>> POTUS.
>>>
>>
>> When the President is under fire, it is the job of the SS to get between
>> him and the gunman, shielding the President with their bodies if
>> necessary. That is what Clint Hill was attempting to do but he didn't get
>> there in time. In his 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace he said he
>> thought if he had reacted just a little quicker he might have gotten their
>> in time to take the bullet for JFK. He said that if that had cost him his
>> life that would have been just fine with him.
>>
>
>
> If Clint Hill hadn't been stood down at the airfield, he might have
> been in time to cover the POTUS and Jackie. It didn't help that Greer

Extremely ignorant. If Clint Hill had not pulled back, the limo would
have driven away without him and he'd still be at the airport.
How can Clint Hill save POTUS and FLOTUS when he's at the airport and
they're in Dealey Plaza. Try using your brain some time.

> almost stopped the limo, when the bullets were flying. That seemed to
> help the kill shot.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In the attempted assassination of Truman, a uniformed SS officer was
>>>> killed and two others wounded in the attack. The slain officer was Leslie
>>>> Coffelt who after being shot four times managed to draw his gun and kill
>>>> the assailant with a single shot to the head. Coffelt died about four
>>>> hours later. Both the uniform and plainclothes agents of the Secret
>>>> Service accept the duty of protecting the President with their lives if
>>>> necessary and they have performed that duty on a number of occasions.
>>>
>>>
>>> We all know the general rules for the SS agents. Tell me then why
>>> when the shooting began and JFK was hit and raised his arms and put his
>>> hands on his throat, why didn't Kellerman from the front seat, vault over
>>> the bar and cover JFK? Of course, he was the one SS agent that was
>>> instrumental in stealing the body of JFK from Dallas medical examiner,
>>> which was critical to keep the conspiracy covered up.
>>>
>>
>> You would have to ask Kellerman that. My guess is that by the time he
>> figure out what was happening, it was too late.
>
>
> Not very good training, eh?
>

Exactly. Did you ever watch the movie In the Line of Fire?

> Chris
>

[mainframetech]

So then why was he pacing the limo with another agent on the other side
like they often had done in the past? If he had a duty why avoid it and
begin the pacing detail? And why did BOTH men stop pacing the limo when
the man in the follow up car gestured to them to 'stand down'? And why
was a man that YOU say wasn't supposed to be on the pacing detail doing
the pacing, and why didn't the report of Lawton for the day cover these
odd circumstances? Your whacky fantasies lead to many questions.

It would have been pretty silly for him to hop on
> the bumper if he wasn't going to accompany the motorcade. The other agent
> was Hill who didn't stand down either. He dropped back and hopped on the
> running board of the follow up car which is where JFK preferred he be.
>

They BOTH stopped pacing the limo TOGETHER at the same time and went
back to the follow up car. I'm surprised to see that you have read the
mind of JFK and know what he wanted, since there was no such order in
writing, and they always put them in writing and passed them around if the
POTUS gave an order. Of course, when Floyd Boring said that JFK made a
comment, others said it wasn't so. And since it wasn't put to writing, it
probably was a fake. Boring acted suspiciously during his ARRB
questioning as well.



> >
> > To make a decision, you need to go listen to the other side at one of

> > the Vince Palamara websites.
>
> Why would anyone ever need to go to one of Palmara's websites. He's a
> kook.
>

WRONG! He is a follower of the SS and recorder of their history and
doings particularly during the whole JFK case. He has many friends among
the SS agents as well. He may be the only conduit for truth they have.
Your busy using your stupid opinion to bad mouth competent well meaning
people. It's a Bud type thing. Grow up and get past it.

> > There are many agents that stated that JFK
> > NEVER told the agents anything and he acceded to their wishes in all
> > situations.
> >
>
> Once again I see no quotes. Just empty claims.
>

WRONG! There are many comments supporting my point, and if it matters
to you, go to a Palamara website.

> > > > > I have no doubt that had they been on the bumper one of them would have
> > > > > done what McCarthy would do 17 years later. What Rufus Youngblood did with
> > > > > LBJ two cars back. But because of their boss's wishes they had to balance
> > > > > the safety concerns with the political concerns. In this case the
> > > > > political concerns won out.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There were no political concerns, that is a red herring made up by a
> > > > few of the SS agents and begun by Floyd Boring.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And you know this how? Oh that's right. The same way you "know"
> > > everything. You just assumed it.
> > >
> >
> >
> > WRONG! No assumption. The knowledge comes from looking into the
> > situation, which OBVIOUSLY you haven't.
>
> There's that word "obviously" again which of course accompanies a baseless
> claim by you.
>

WRONG! It's OBVIOUS that you're having terrible trouble with the word
OBVIOUS and so have initiated a war on the word in hopes that others will
think your silly opinions about it mean something.

> > Floyd Boring was heard bringing
> > up the supposed order from JFK after Florida which even contained an
> > insult, yet other agents stated that JFK never did that kind of thing.
> > When the agents also stated that there was never a problem with JFK
> > issuing orders, it became OBVIOUS that Boring had made it up.
> >
>
> Once again "obvious" goes with a claim for which you have produced no
> supporting evidence.
>

Once again you have tried to use your opinion to sway the case your
way. There usually is evidence, but the word saves time in assuming that
the listener has the intelligence to know that what is OBVIOUS is really
true and well known as such.

> >
> >
> > > > > You scoffed at the idea that Secret Service agents put their lives on the
> > > > > line in order to protect the President. The facts do not bear you out.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > WRONG! I did not scoff. I pointed out that the situation was not as
> > > > dangerous as it might have been, since JFK would be the target, not the SS
> > > > agents.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If JFK was the target, their job was to make themselves the target by
> > > shielding the President with their bodies.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Then why didn't Kellerman jump over the bar and cover JFK when bullets
> > were flying into the limo? Was he trying to avoid the bullets that were
> > still to come when Greer stopped the limo? Clint Hill was the only one
> > who did his job the way they were supposed to. But too late maybe because
> > he was 'stood down' from pacing the limo at the airfield. He could have
> > been riding on the left rear bumper platform.
> >
>
> He didn't stand down. He was where he was supposed to be. On the running
> board of the follow up car. There is no doubt the agents were slow to
> react because it took them several seconds to realize what was happening.
> By that time it was too late. Had protective action been taken immediately
> with the first shot it's possible one of them might have got there in time
> to stop the head shot but we'll never know that for sure.
>

We know that Kellerman did not even make the attempt, and there was no
knowing how many other bullets were going to be incoming. He stayed where
he was and didn't make a move.

> > > > > Just recently when there was a perceived threat to Trump during a campaign
> > > > > stop his protection detail immediately formed a human shield around
> > > > > him.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.inquisitr.com/2882077/secret-service-form-human-shield-around-donald-trump-as-candidate-is-rushed-on-stage-at-ohio-rally-video/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What a shame. In that case, the job is dangerous. But when shots are
> > > > coming from far away, it's not so dangerous, and the target is still the
> > > > POTUS.
> > > >
> > >
> > > When the President is under fire, it is the job of the SS to get between
> > > him and the gunman, shielding the President with their bodies if
> > > necessary. That is what Clint Hill was attempting to do but he didn't get
> > > there in time. In his 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace he said he
> > > thought if he had reacted just a little quicker he might have gotten their
> > > in time to take the bullet for JFK. He said that if that had cost him his
> > > life that would have been just fine with him.
> > >
> >
> >
> > If Clint Hill hadn't been stood down at the airfield, he might have
> > been in time to cover the POTUS and Jackie. It didn't help that Greer
> > almost stopped the limo, when the bullets were flying. That seemed to
> > help the kill shot.
> >
>
> Once again, he did not stand down. He assumed his assigned place on the
> running board of the follow up car which is where JFK wanted his agents.
> That's not a stand down. That's a deployment.
>

"Assuming a place" is not a duty like pacing the limo is. When they
were BOTH called off that duty, they BOTH TOGETHER went back to the follow
up car. They stopped the duty at the same moment. It was a 'stand down'
from Emory Roberts in the follow up car. Everyone could see it clearly
that it wasn't some stupid lunch joke when they BOTH stopped TOGETHER.

> > > > > In the attempted assassination of Truman, a uniformed SS officer was
> > > > > killed and two others wounded in the attack. The slain officer was Leslie
> > > > > Coffelt who after being shot four times managed to draw his gun and kill
> > > > > the assailant with a single shot to the head. Coffelt died about four
> > > > > hours later. Both the uniform and plainclothes agents of the Secret
> > > > > Service accept the duty of protecting the President with their lives if
> > > > > necessary and they have performed that duty on a number of occasions.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We all know the general rules for the SS agents. Tell me then why
> > > > when the shooting began and JFK was hit and raised his arms and put his
> > > > hands on his throat, why didn't Kellerman from the front seat, vault over
> > > > the bar and cover JFK? Of course, he was the one SS agent that was
> > > > instrumental in stealing the body of JFK from Dallas medical examiner,
> > > > which was critical to keep the conspiracy covered up.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You would have to ask Kellerman that. My guess is that by the time he
> > > figure out what was happening, it was too late.
> >
> >
> > Not very good training, eh?
> >
>
> It's good to get training but nothing can prepare you for the real thing.

Not very good training, eh? Training is to help react without having
to think about everything.

Chris