Curtain Rods for a New Apt?
Russ Burr
rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
Oswald left the scene.
If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
same to McDonald?
This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
whatsoever.
Russ
Rockett Crawford
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Excellent points. Especially why Oswald would lie about
carrying the curtain rods into the TSBD. Makes no sense at all.
Rockett Crawford
Peter Makres
Russ
Very good points Russ. There appears to be many problems with the concept
of Oswald having already rented an apartment in Dallas. He may well have
wanted to
reconcile with Marina, but probably that was as far as it went, with no
evidence to
support the notion that specific plans were in place, such as renting an
apartment. And
when Marina appeared unwilling to reconcile at that moment, this may well
have been
when Oswald decided to act on his plan, and took the rifle with him to work
the next
morning.
If they were indeed curtain rods in the package, why did he deny the curtain
rod story?
Why kill Tippitt? Why flee the Book Depository in the first place? Why did
no one come forward
to say that Oswald rented an apartment from them? Where did he get these
curtain rods?
Where did the curtain rods go?
All of these issues point to Oswald guilt.
Peter
Anthony Marsh
> John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
> rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>
> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
>
Yes, steal them from the Paines. Michael Paine testified that he had no
idea how many curtain rods he had out in the garage. Was it 2 or was it
4? And that he didn't check on them for many months. Why should he?
Wouldn't it be rather obsessive compulsive to check your garage for
curtain rods every day?
> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
>
How do we know he didn't? The police may have lied about what Oswald
said. What did Oswald really say about his lunch?
> Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
> Oswald left the scene.
>
Because someone left it there on purpose to be found.
> If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> same to McDonald?
>
The assassination may have nothing to do with killing Tippit.
> This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
> whatsoever.
>
He may not have been planning to get a new apartment at all if he was
intending to separate from Marina. He may have wanted to change the
curtain rods in his room at the rooming house.
> Russ
>
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
Steve
forward and tell this? Did anyone in Dallas come out and say " This
man came to me about renting an apt on such and such a date, and I have
been holding it for him...." All these yars later, no one has ever
said Oswald came to them about renting an aprtment. That idea is
absurd.
Rockett Crawford
"Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
news:UFMLe.585$286.422@trndny09...
> Russ Burr wrote:
>
> > And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> > curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
> >
>
> How do we know he didn't? The police may have lied about what Oswald
> said. What did Oswald really say about his lunch?
>
Interesting. I was wondering how Conspiracy buffs would try to
rationalize this away, because this by itself makes the curtain rods
argument fall on it's vertical smile.
Rockett Crawford
Robert Harris
>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
>rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
>get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
>with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>
>If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>Paines?
Yes, Russell. That's exactly where he got them.
If you are not impressed by the amazing coincidence that Ruth Paine
just happened to have curtain rods in her garage on 11/22/63, that
matched perfectly with the package Oswald was carrying, then perhaps
you can explain something else for us.
Paine told the WC that she had them in her garage at the time Oswald
told Frazier about them, and thought they were still there, although
she hadn't seen them in a long time.
Of course, if the curtain rods were no longer in the garage, then the
obvious conclusion would be that Oswald took them.
The WC was extremely interested - enough so that they wanted to come
out to her garage and see them for themselves. They did that, and sure
enough, they were right there. So, on March 23, 1964 they took the
rods into custody.
But there was just one little problem., as I'm sure you remember
Russell:-)
Those same curtain rods were logged into the DPD evidence locker on
March 15th, 1964 - eight days *before* the WC found them in Mrs.
Paine's garage.
Obviously, they had been put back before the WC went out there.
If it's any consolation, Russell, this does not exonerate Oswald,
since he certainly could have had someone else bring the rifle in for
him.
But it tells us truckloads about the motivations of the FBI and DPD.
Robert Harris
>Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
>
>And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
>curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
>
>Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
>Oswald left the scene.
>
>If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
>same to McDonald?
>
>This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
>whatsoever.
>
>Russ
>
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
Rockett Crawford
"Steve" <drumr...@wmconnect.com> wrote in message
news:1124046190.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Good point Steve, especially considering all the other people that
did come out during the media storm following the assassination
claiming they knew or had recently seen Oswald.
Rockettt
Peter Makres
"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42ffce85...@news20.forteinc.com...
On 14 Aug 2005 13:42:47 -0400, Russ Burr <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote:
>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
>rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
>get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
>with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>
>If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>Paines?
Yes, Russell. That's exactly where he got them.
Then where did these curtain rods go that Oswald supposedly took with him
to the TSBD?
Bud
Anthony Marsh wrote:
> Russ Burr wrote:
> > John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
> > rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> > get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> > with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
> >
> > If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> > Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
> >
>
> Yes, steal them from the Paines. Michael Paine testified that he had no
> idea how many curtain rods he had out in the garage. Was it 2 or was it
> 4? And that he didn't check on them for many months. Why should he?
> Wouldn't it be rather obsessive compulsive to check your garage for
> curtain rods every day?
This is it, eh? That Oswald had such a great need to have curtain
rods to take to work, that he was willing to steal them.
> > And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> > curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
> >
>
> How do we know he didn't? The police may have lied about what Oswald
> said. What did Oswald really say about his lunch?
It seems highly likely the police would question him about the package
he carried to work that day. It seems highly unlikely they would change
his answers to these questions. A much likelier possibility is that Oz
denied carrying the long package witnesses say he carried to work the day
of the assassination.
> > Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
> > Oswald left the scene.
> >
>
> Because someone left it there on purpose to be found.
Because carrying it made escape unlikely for the shooter. Oswald
that is.
> > If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> > same to McDonald?
> >
>
> The assassination may have nothing to do with killing Tippit.
The man claiming to be a Secret Service man on the knoll may not
have anything to do with the assassination either.
> > This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
> > whatsoever.
> >
>
> He may not have been planning to get a new apartment at all if he was
> intending to separate from Marina. He may have wanted to change the
> curtain rods in his room at the rooming house.
Either that, or he wanted an explaination that was unlikely to be
challenged for carrying a long, paper covered object into work that
day.
Russ Burr
> Russ Burr wrote:
>
>> John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had
>> already rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the
>> 21st to get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to
>> reconcile with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new
>> apartment ASAP?
>>
>> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>> Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
>>
>
> Yes, steal them from the Paines.
And how do you know that the rods at the Paines would fit his
roominghouse to begin with? And why did he need to steal them at all?
Ruth was and is a charitable woman and all Oswald had to do was ask if
he could have them.
Michael Paine testified that he had no
> idea how many curtain rods he had out in the garage. Was it 2 or was it
> 4? And that he didn't check on them for many months. Why should he?
> Wouldn't it be rather obsessive compulsive to check your garage for
> curtain rods every day?
>
>> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
>> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
>>
>
> How do we know he didn't? The police may have lied about what Oswald
> said. What did Oswald really say about his lunch?
Well if the police were lying about what he said, as you've pointed out
before, why didn't the police just lie and say he confessed?
Russ
jwrush
>
>>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
>>rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
>>get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
>>with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>>
>>If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>>Paines?
>
> Yes, Russell. That's exactly where he got them.
>
> If you are not impressed by the amazing coincidence that Ruth Paine
> just happened to have curtain rods in her garage on 11/22/63,
A lot of people have curtain rods in their garage. But not many people
shoot a President, a cop, and try to shoot another cop the same day.
Robert Harris
wrote:
They were found by the DPD, probably at the depository.
Robert Harris
Peter Makres
Prove it!
jwrush
> Robert Harris
Show us some documentation about this, Harris. Who found them, who turned
them in, where's the DPD report about them being found. Where are the photos
of them? All I've seen are photos of Ruth Paine's curtain rods in her
garage.
Anthony Marsh
How could Oswald simply deny that he took ANY package to work that day?
Did he deny taking his lunch? Did he in fact take his lunch?
>
>>>Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
>>>Oswald left the scene.
>>>
>>
>>Because someone left it there on purpose to be found.
>
>
> Because carrying it made escape unlikely for the shooter. Oswald
> that is.
>
You mean like James Earl Ray leaving behind the duffel bag full of
incriminating evidence and the rifle? Do many assassins just leave the
rifle with their fingerprints all over it to be found by the police?
>
>>>If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
>>>same to McDonald?
>>>
>>
>>The assassination may have nothing to do with killing Tippit.
>
>
> The man claiming to be a Secret Service man on the knoll may not
> have anything to do with the assassination either.
>
Sure, spectators normally pretend to be SS agents and flash genuine SS
identification. Happens every day, eh?
John Hill
news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
> "Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
> rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>
> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
>
> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
>
> Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
> Oswald left the scene.
>
> If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> same to McDonald?
>
> This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
> whatsoever.
>
> Russ
>
> Very good points Russ. There appears to be many problems with the concept
> of Oswald having already rented an apartment in Dallas.
I have never suggested Oswald had ALREADY rented an apartment. Let's keep
our accusations correct, please.
> He may well have
> wanted to
> reconcile with Marina, but probably that was as far as it went, with no
> evidence to
> support the notion that specific plans were in place, such as renting an
> apartment. And
> when Marina appeared unwilling to reconcile at that moment, this may well
> have been
> when Oswald decided to act on his plan, and took the rifle with him to
work
> the next
> morning.
Ahh, the old "Marina's rejection drove him to do it" excuse. So, you're
saying he made the bag just in case Marina turned him down? A little
contingency planning for rejection?
> If they were indeed curtain rods in the package, why did he deny the
curtain
> rod story?
Because he'd stolen them from the Paines?
> Why kill Tippitt?
Perhaps because he thought he'd been set up and was determined to not be
apprehended?
> Why flee the Book Depository in the first place?
What evidence do you have that he "FLED" the TSBD. Look at his actual
actions and the time they took and I think you'll see a man "fleeing" rather
casually.
> Why did
> no one come forward
> to say that Oswald rented an apartment from them?
Because he hadn't done so yet. Just how hard is this stuff to actually
figure out?
> Where did he get these
> curtain rods?
***IF*** there were curtain rods, he presumably stole them from the Paine
garage.
> Where did the curtain rods go?
Damn good question. One answer ***MIGHT*** be that a conspirator took them
when he left the building.
> All of these issues point to Oswald guilt.
Not a one of them makes the case.
--
John Hill (joisa)
>
> Peter
>
>
>
TexExtra
Russ Burr wrote:
> John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
> rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>
> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
I don't think I understand the significance of the source of the
curtain rods.
Cheap curtain rods are extensible. They don't need to be measured.
>
> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
There are several possibilities about the curtain rods:
1) There never were any curtain rods, but the package had nothing to do
with the assassination. It could be that the curtain rods story was a
"none of your business" story.
2) There never were any curtain rods and there was a link to the
assassination.
3) There were curtain rods, which we should be able to assume had
nothing to do with the assassination.
Indications are that #2 is false because witness accounts suggest the
package was not of the proper dimensions.
Anthony Marsh
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
>
>> Russ Burr wrote:
>>
>>> John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had
>>> already rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the
>>> 21st to get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to
>>> reconcile with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new
>>> apartment ASAP?
>>>
>>> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from
>>> the Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, steal them from the Paines.
>
>
> And how do you know that the rods at the Paines would fit his
> roominghouse to begin with? And why did he need to steal them at all?
I don't. Why wouldn't he steal them? Maybe he thought he already had
permission. Maybe he already had a set of curtain rods from his old
apartment that he was keeping out at the Paines' garage.
> Ruth was and is a charitable woman and all Oswald had to do was ask if
> he could have them.
>
Maybe he did. Maybe he was intending to ask her.
> Michael Paine testified that he had no
>
>> idea how many curtain rods he had out in the garage. Was it 2 or was
>> it 4? And that he didn't check on them for many months. Why should he?
>> Wouldn't it be rather obsessive compulsive to check your garage for
>> curtain rods every day?
>>
>>> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
>>> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
>>>
>>
>> How do we know he didn't? The police may have lied about what Oswald
>> said. What did Oswald really say about his lunch?
>
>
> Well if the police were lying about what he said, as you've pointed out
> before, why didn't the police just lie and say he confessed?
>
Maybe because Oswald was occasionally brought out before the reporters
and professed his innocence.
John Hill
> rented
I never said he had already rented another apartment. Presumably, had he
already done so, there would be paperwork and landlord evidence of it. My
suggestion was that he may have known of an apartment he might be interested
in renting and may have known, even if by only looking in the windows, that
it needed curtains and rods.
> an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
That would be one perfectly valid reason for going on Thursday instead of
Friday.
> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> Paines?
Why not. It's not like he'd never stolen before, is it?
> Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
Many, if not most, curtain rods are adjustable in length and will fit a
rather wide variety of window widths, and you already know this, so your
question is silly.
> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
How do we know for certain he didn't? Where are the recordings of his
interogations? Where are the notes taken at his interogations?
All we have are notes made from recollection - after the fact and a handful
of 1 to 2 page reports. One might think a report on the interogation of the
suspected murderer of the President might go into a bit more detail.
> Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor
Because that's where it was used, by someone including the possibility of
Oswald, to fire the shots.
> after
> Oswald left the scene.
What does "after Oswald left the scene" have to do with it? It could just as
well have been discovered while he was still. Your implication seems to be
that because it was found after Oswald had left that that therefore means
Oswald was fleeing the scene.
> If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> same to McDonald?
One oft suggested reason, which you are more than well associated with, is
that Oswald realized he'd been set up and was running for his life, in his
view.
> This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
> whatsoever.
So, you think Oswald meant for Marina and the two girls to move into the
single room in the rooming house with him and share a bathroom with others?
You don't think he would have been looking for an apartment? Marina and the
girls wouldn't have wanted to live in the one room (and I doubt the landlady
would have permitted it) so Oswald would have HAD to have looked for an
apartment. Given that he asked Marina to bring the girls to live with him in
Dallas on Thursday evening, it seems rather evident he would have had an
apartment on his mind.
--
John Hill (joisa)
> Russ
>
John Hill
Please see my response to Russ.
--
John Hill (joisa)
"Rockett Crawford" <cap...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:11fv1di...@corp.supernews.com...
John Hill
news:1124046190.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> forward and tell this?
Because Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the apartment. Can't anyone
figure this stuff out for themselves?
> Did anyone in Dallas come out and say " This
> man came to me about renting an apt on such and such a date, and I have
> been holding it for him...." All these yars later, no one has ever
> said Oswald came to them about renting an aprtment. That idea is
> absurd.
Of course it is, because Oswald had not yet gone that far with it.
Jeez.
--
John Hill (joisa)
>
>
John Hill
Rockett,
Just who is it claiming Oswald had already rented an apartment, or even
viewed one? Not me.
--
John Hill (joisa)
Rockett Crawford
"John Hill" <jo...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:4300...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >
> > If they were indeed curtain rods in the package, why did he deny the
> curtain
> > rod story?
>
> Because he'd stolen them from the Paines?
And what would the sentence for stealing curtain rods be vrs, say,
assassinating the President of the United States??
Rockett Crawford
jwrush
If I thought I had been set up, the first thing I would do is call the cops
or the media. I think I would have gone to the nearest TV station and told
my story to the reporters so they would have it on tape or film in case I
got arrested or shot. I wouldn't go around killing cops or throwing my hands
up when apprehended and saying "Oh well, I guess this is it!" and then
trying to shoot another cop. That was the same as a confession to the
original crime.
I believe you are thinking of the plots to Hollywood chase movies like "Four
Days of the Condor" and "Conspiracy Theory" and "The Pelican Brief".
The best thing to do in a real situation like that is to go to some TV
station or newspaper and tell them what is going on. I'd prefer a TV station
in 1963 because they could film or tape an interview before anyone on the
outside knew I was at a TV station. I certainly wouldn't go around shooting
cops. That's illegal and worth the electric chair on its own merits.
jwrush
Byron de la Beckwith did, and the FBI traced the rifle right to him.
The first two trials in the early '60s in Mississippi were hung juries, but
the one a few years ago convicted him and sent him to the slammer. Guys like
this, with murder obsessions, tend to not think ahead very much. Beckwith
never dreamed he'd be convicted 30 years later.
jwrush
Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.
Maybe not many people are foolish enough to believe the curtain rod story.
Peter Makres
Not exactly. But a plan, just like the rest, such as the Walker attempt, the
plan
to shoot Nixon, to name a couple; that was designed to earn Oswald
fame. Probably not "a contingency plan" in case Marina turned him down,
but one that, once it appeared rather hopeless with Marina, that he decided
to
act on.
> If they were indeed curtain rods in the package, why did he deny the
curtain
> rod story?
Because he'd stolen them from the Paines?
Okay, he's being questioned for the murder of the President, and he would
rather lie about a petty thing like stealing curtain rods than clear himself
of
murdering the President.
> Why kill Tippitt?
Perhaps because he thought he'd been set up and was determined to not be
apprehended?
Okay, and make his problems even worse. And, how was he supposed to have
known
that he had been set up?
> Why flee the Book Depository in the first place?
What evidence do you have that he "FLED" the TSBD. Look at his actual
actions and the time they took and I think you'll see a man "fleeing" rather
casually.
Okay then, why did he LEAVE the TSBD. Then there is the excuse he gave the
police-that he
figured there would be no more work that day. If the President had been shot
in front of your
place of employment, would you just casually stroll off rather than stick
around to find out
what how a huge event like that happened? Oh yes, I forgot...he must have
realized he had been
set up. In which case, he WAS fleeing. But how did he know he had been set
up?
> Why did
> no one come forward
> to say that Oswald rented an apartment from them?
Because he hadn't done so yet. Just how hard is this stuff to actually
figure out?
Then, he would not have needed curtain rods just yet-for an apartment that
is not
yet rented with unknown window dimensions.
> Where did he get these
> curtain rods?
***IF*** there were curtain rods, he presumably stole them from the Paine
garage.
Why did he need to steal them? As someone else pointed out, Ruth Paine was
a giving woman, and she probably would have given them if he had asked for
them.
> Where did the curtain rods go?
Damn good question. One answer ***MIGHT*** be that a conspirator took them
when he left the building.
That's really hard to swallow. Smart guys, these conspirators.
> All of these issues point to Oswald guilt.
Not a one of them makes the case.
Maybe not, but taken together, along with Oswald's prints, his rifle, his
character,
his attempt on Walker, along with his other prior aborted plans, the murder
of Tippit,
his lies and his behavior after the assassination, builds a powerful case
for his guilt. I believe a
jury would have convicted him.
Peter
Bud
He told Frazier he was going to buy his lunch off the vendor.
> >>>Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
> >>>Oswald left the scene.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Because someone left it there on purpose to be found.
> >
> >
> > Because carrying it made escape unlikely for the shooter. Oswald
> > that is.
> >
>
> You mean like James Earl Ray leaving behind the duffel bag full of
> incriminating evidence and the rifle?
Stupid cracker thinking vs. crafty commie thinking.
> Do many assassins just leave the
> rifle with their fingerprints all over it to be found by the police?
I can think of one who did. Shame he didn`t take it with him, Baker
with his pistol out could have Ruby-ied him on the second floor
landing, saving Tippit`s life.
> >>>If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> >>>same to McDonald?
> >>>
> >>
> >>The assassination may have nothing to do with killing Tippit.
> >
> >
> > The man claiming to be a Secret Service man on the knoll may not
> > have anything to do with the assassination either.
> >
>
> Sure, spectators normally pretend to be SS agents and flash genuine SS
> identification. Happens every day, eh?
I don`t know the motivations of the person claiming to be a SS
agent on the knoll, do you? Heck, if Tippit`s murder can be unconnected
to the assasination, why not the bogus SS agent?
jwrush
> news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>> John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
>> rented
>
> I never said he had already rented another apartment. Presumably, had he
> already done so, there would be paperwork and landlord evidence of it. My
> suggestion was that he may have known of an apartment he might be
> interested
> in renting and may have known, even if by only looking in the windows,
> that
> it needed curtains and rods.
ROTFLMAO!!!!! Now you've got him looking at an apartment and looking
throught the windows and noticing they needed curtains and rods!!!! So why
would he shoot Tippit and try to shoot McDonald?
>
>> an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
>> get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
>> with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>
> That would be one perfectly valid reason for going on Thursday instead of
> Friday.
But you said he hadn't rented the apartment yet. You seem to be neglecting
something... the President of the United States was going to ride past his
warehouse on Friday, and Oswald was a self-appointed Marxist
"revolutionary". He wasn't an interior decorator. And after he shot the
President, he shot a cop and tried to shoot another one. Do you guys
actually believe this stuff you type out?
>
>> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>> Paines?
>
> Why not. It's not like he'd never stolen before, is it?
The danged thief!!
>
>> Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
>
> Many, if not most, curtain rods are adjustable in length and will fit a
> rather wide variety of window widths, and you already know this, so your
> question is silly.
The apartment story is sillier.
>
>> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
>> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
>
> How do we know for certain he didn't? Where are the recordings of his
> interogations? Where are the notes taken at his interogations?
> All we have are notes made from recollection - after the fact and a
> handful
> of 1 to 2 page reports. One might think a report on the interogation of
> the
> suspected murderer of the President might go into a bit more detail.
>
>> Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor
>
> Because that's where it was used, by someone including the possibility of
> Oswald, to fire the shots.
>
>> after
>> Oswald left the scene.
>
> What does "after Oswald left the scene" have to do with it? It could just
> as
> well have been discovered while he was still. Your implication seems to be
> that because it was found after Oswald had left that that therefore means
> Oswald was fleeing the scene.
>
>> If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
>> same to McDonald?
>
> One oft suggested reason, which you are more than well associated with, is
> that Oswald realized he'd been set up and was running for his life, in his
> view.
Set up by whom?
Who set him up?
>
>> This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
>> whatsoever.
>
> So, you think Oswald meant for Marina and the two girls to move into the
> single room in the rooming house with him and share a bathroom with
> others?
> You don't think he would have been looking for an apartment?
Not after he learne that the President was coming to town.
Marina and the
> girls wouldn't have wanted to live in the one room (and I doubt the
> landlady
> would have permitted it) so Oswald would have HAD to have looked for an
> apartment.
Oswald was looking for an escape route.
Robert Harris
wrote:
>
>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:4300af2...@news20.forteinc.com...
>On 14 Aug 2005 22:39:02 -0400, "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:42ffce85...@news20.forteinc.com...
>>On 14 Aug 2005 13:42:47 -0400, Russ Burr <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
>>>rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
>>>get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
>>>with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>>>
>>>If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>>>Paines?
>>
>>Yes, Russell. That's exactly where he got them.
>>
>>Then where did these curtain rods go that Oswald supposedly took with him
>>to the TSBD?
>
>They were found by the DPD, probably at the depository.
>
>Prove it!
Just read Frazier's testimony. He drove Oswald and the curtain rods to the
Depository, and never expressed the slightest doubt that the package
contained curtain rods.
Do you have a better explanation for why the curtain rods were at the DPD
8 days before they were "discovered" in Paine's garage?
Look, I own a MC rifle. If you ever get the chance, pick one up and
examine it closely. Wrapped in brown paper, it would be a hundred times
heavier and far more massive than a pair of curtain rods. There wouldn't
be even the most remote, resemblance.
Oswald would never have tried to pass a rifle like that off, as a pair of
curtain rods. Frazier would have thought he was crazy.
jwrush
Oswald didn't tell Frazier "two curtain rods" did he? Oswald just said
"curtain rods", which Fraizer probably thought was many curtain rods. These
many curtain rods were never found in the Book Depository, but Oswald's
rifle was found there.
Robert Harris
>
>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:4300af2...@news20.forteinc.com...
>> On 14 Aug 2005 22:39:02 -0400, "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:42ffce85...@news20.forteinc.com...
>>>On 14 Aug 2005 13:42:47 -0400, Russ Burr <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
>>>>rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
>>>>get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
>>>>with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
>>>>
>>>>If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>>>>Paines?
>>>
>>>Yes, Russell. That's exactly where he got them.
>>>
>>>Then where did these curtain rods go that Oswald supposedly took with him
>>>to the TSBD?
>>
>> They were found by the DPD, probably at the depository.
>
>> Robert Harris
>
>Show us some documentation about this, Harris. Who found them, who turned
>them in, where's the DPD report about them being found. Where are the photos
>of them? All I've seen are photos of Ruth Paine's curtain rods in her
>garage.
Why were they in the DPD evidence locker on March 15, 1964, Mr. Rush?
Rockett Crawford
> On 15 Aug 2005 11:40:53 -0400, "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >>
> >>Then where did these curtain rods go that Oswald supposedly took with
him
> >>to the TSBD?
> >
> >They were found by the DPD, probably at the depository.
> >
> >Prove it!
>
> Just read Frazier's testimony. He drove Oswald and the curtain rods to the
> Depository, and never expressed the slightest doubt that the package
> contained curtain rods.
Fraizier said 10 different times in his WC testimony that he *didn't
pay attention to the package.* All he did was glance at it, asked
Oswald what it was, and then was fat, fed, *dum,* and happy about it.
From his testimony, Frazier didn't sound like the brightest bulb on the
tree, probably one reason why Oswald felt he'd have no problem smugging
the gun under his nose and probably why Oswald bolted from the car as
soon as they got to work.
I wouldn't be surprised if Fraizer was a bit embaressed about it afterwards,
especially considering that he often mentioned that he wasn't paying
attention
to the package, sometimes twice in the same sentences?
Rockett Crawford
Russ Burr
> "Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
>>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
>>rented
>
>
> I never said he had already rented another apartment.
John, My apologies if I used you for the source of this. It must have
been someone else.
Russ
jwrush
Anthony Marsh
You are barking up the wrong tree. The idea is that they would be hidden
or made to disappear. Why do you keep thinking that the government would
willingly make the cover-up obvious to even folks like you? We've had to
dig for clues and documents pointing out where the government tampered
with or destroyed evidence. The government is not going to come right
out and hold a press conference announcing how they had covered up
things (well, maybe during the Carter administration).
Steve
> If this were true, why didn't the Landlord or Apartment owner come
> forward and tell this?
John Hill writes:
Because Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the apartment. Can't anyone
figure this stuff out for themselves?
Steve writes:
> Did anyone in Dallas come out and say "This
> man came to me about renting an apt on such and such a date, and I have
> been holding it for him...." All these year's later, no one has ever
> said Oswald came to them about renting an apartment. That idea is
> absurd.
Of course it is, because Oswald had not yet gone that far with it.
Jeez.
--
John Hill (joisa)
Steve writes:
Where do you come up with these scenarios? You aren't making sense
here, John. If Oswald had even spoken with anyone about renting an
apartment, I would expect the person Oswald spoke with would have come
forward and mentioned to the police, after hearing that Oswald, the
world famous assassin of President Kennedy claimed he was carrying
curtain rods and not the rifle, to verify or deny his story. You are
making this claim that "Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the
apartment." What proof do you have to offer that he did (or didnt) do
any such thing? Where have you come up with this episode in Oswald's
life?
Furthermore, it doesnt make sense for someone to concern themselves
with "curtain rods" when they don't even have a place to hang them.
Think about it.
And again, I bring up the point:
Why would anyone go to all the trouble of wrapping a few "curtain
rods" up so securely just to transport them from some place a few miles
from where they live?
Your logic makes no sense, John.
Steve
Peter Makres
Let's see the documentation.
Peter
Peter Makres
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
news:4301...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
That's right JW..I too noticed how it suddenly became a "pair" of curtain
rods.
And like Rockett pointed out, Frazier himself said he didn't pay that much
attention.
He admitted that since he had already been told by Oswald that he returned
to Irving
to pick up curtain rods, he bought the story. What's more, we have Linnie
Mae Randle,
Frazier's sister, who saw Oswald place his "heavy brown bag" in the car
before Frazier
went outside, saying it was tapered, being wider at the bottom. From this it
would seem
Frazier didn't even really look at the package until they arrived at the
TSBD, when he
bought Oswald's cock and bull story. Okay, Mrs. Randle guessed the length at
28 inches,
according to WC. But, she could have easily gotten this wrong. But she had
the impresssion,
looking through the breakfast-room window, that he was carrying a "heavy"
package, that
was tapered at the bottom, with Oswald gripping the bag in his right hand
near the top. It isn't
that hard to figure out, he was probably holding the rifle by the muzzle end
of the barrel, with
the stock at the bottom, giving the bag its overall "tapered" appearance.
jwrush
> Steve writes:
>
>
>> If this were true, why didn't the Landlord or Apartment owner come
>> forward and tell this?
>
>
>
> John Hill writes:
>
>
> Because Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the apartment. Can't anyone
>
> figure this stuff out for themselves?
Of course we can figure out our own Hollywood movie scenarios. It's fun to
do. I love spy movies and chase films.
jwrush
Well, you managed to turn up photos of two different kinds of curtain rods.
You can make curtain rod pictures appear at will, any time you need them to
appear. Let's see you make pictures of that "new apartment" appear and make
his Carcano disappear.
jwrush
They were in Ruth Paine's garage. He took his rifle to work. Let's see some
evidence that any curtain rods were ever found in the Book Depository, where
the rifle was found. Let's see some windows that needed curtains.
Anthony Marsh
Notice how Bud doesn't see the subtle differences. Ray did not leave the
rifle in place to be found. At least he tried to take it away from the
crime scene.
>
>>Do many assassins just leave the
>>rifle with their fingerprints all over it to be found by the police?
>
>
> I can think of one who did. Shame he didn`t take it with him, Baker
> with his pistol out could have Ruby-ied him on the second floor
> landing, saving Tippit`s life.
>
Again folks, notice how Bud can not answer a question and present
examples, because he does not know the answer and will not do his homework.
>
>>>>>If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
>>>>>same to McDonald?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The assassination may have nothing to do with killing Tippit.
>>>
>>>
>>> The man claiming to be a Secret Service man on the knoll may not
>>>have anything to do with the assassination either.
>>>
>>
>>Sure, spectators normally pretend to be SS agents and flash genuine SS
>>identification. Happens every day, eh?
>
>
> I don`t know the motivations of the person claiming to be a SS
> agent on the knoll, do you? Heck, if Tippit`s murder can be unconnected
> to the assasination, why not the bogus SS agent?
>
I was not talking about motive. I was talking about the uniqueness of
the event. Point to me any time that such a thing has ever happened
before. And genuine SS identification when no SS agents were on the ground.
Anthony Marsh
Sure, a confession to the original crime, which was shooting Tippit.
That may have nothing to do with the JFK assassination.
> I believe you are thinking of the plots to Hollywood chase movies like "Four
> Days of the Condor" and "Conspiracy Theory" and "The Pelican Brief".
>
> The best thing to do in a real situation like that is to go to some TV
> station or newspaper and tell them what is going on. I'd prefer a TV station
> in 1963 because they could film or tape an interview before anyone on the
> outside knew I was at a TV station. I certainly wouldn't go around shooting
> cops. That's illegal and worth the electric chair on its own merits.
>
>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
Good example. And he got away with it for 30 years.
Was there ever any doubt that it was his rifle and that HE was the one
firing it?
Bud
I guess that Ray must have been the grassy knoll shooter, since that
assassin did take his rifle also.
> >>Do many assassins just leave the
> >>rifle with their fingerprints all over it to be found by the police?
> >
> >
> > I can think of one who did. Shame he didn`t take it with him, Baker
> > with his pistol out could have Ruby-ied him on the second floor
> > landing, saving Tippit`s life.
> >
>
> Again folks, notice how Bud can not answer a question and present
> examples, because he does not know the answer and will not do his homework.
My dog ate my homework. Notice folks that Marsh asks for examples
that match this unique and specific instance.
> >>>>>If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> >>>>>same to McDonald?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>The assassination may have nothing to do with killing Tippit.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The man claiming to be a Secret Service man on the knoll may not
> >>>have anything to do with the assassination either.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Sure, spectators normally pretend to be SS agents and flash genuine SS
> >>identification. Happens every day, eh?
> >
> >
> > I don`t know the motivations of the person claiming to be a SS
> > agent on the knoll, do you? Heck, if Tippit`s murder can be unconnected
> > to the assasination, why not the bogus SS agent?
> >
>
> I was not talking about motive. I was talking about the uniqueness of
> the event. Point to me any time that such a thing has ever happened
> before.
Yah, I would say that that is only time that Kennedy was shot that
someone claimed to be a SS agent.
> And genuine SS identification when no SS agents were on the ground.
Genuine, huh? You can tell by the hologram on them, right?
Martha
If Oswald was looking to get rid of the rifle and give himself time - he
could have tossed it out the window in the stairwell onto the loading dock
roof. It may have been a little more time consuming when it came to
hunting the dang thing.
M
Robert Harris
"Rockett Crawford" <cap...@airmail.net> wrote:
> "Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
> news:UFMLe.585$286.422@trndny09...
> > Russ Burr wrote:
> >
> > > And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> > > curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
> > >
> >
> > How do we know he didn't? The police may have lied about what Oswald
> > said. What did Oswald really say about his lunch?
> >
>
> Interesting. I was wondering how Conspiracy buffs would try to
> rationalize this away, because this by itself makes the curtain rods
> argument fall on it's vertical smile.
Nonsense.
The *LAST* think Oswald wanted to do was exonerate himself.
You need to grasp that concept if you ever hope to understand this case.
Robert Harris
Rockett Crawford
"Robert Harris" <bobha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bobharris77-C216...@news-forte.supernews.net...
Robert,
You need to grasp the concept of what is your opinion vrs. what is
fact.
Rockett
jwrush
I think he said someone stole his rifle.
jwrush
No, the original crime was the shooting of the President. That's what he was
fleeing from with his pistol, and that's why he shot Tippit in the first
place.
jwrush
"Martha" <ma...@comteck.com> wrote in message
news:4302...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
You should have told him that ahead of time. He could have used some good
advice from someone.
John Hill
news:1124208933.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> > If this were true, why didn't the Landlord or Apartment owner come
> > forward and tell this?
>
>
>
> John Hill writes:
>
>
> Because Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the apartment. Can't anyone
>
> figure this stuff out for themselves?
>
>
> Steve writes:
>
> > Did anyone in Dallas come out and say "This
> > man came to me about renting an apt on such and such a date, and I have
> > been holding it for him...." All these year's later, no one has ever
> > said Oswald came to them about renting an apartment. That idea is
> > absurd.
>
>
> Of course it is, because Oswald had not yet gone that far with it.
> Jeez.
> --
> John Hill (joisa)
>
>
>
> Steve writes:
>
> Where do you come up with these scenarios? You aren't making sense
> here, John. If Oswald had even spoken with anyone about renting an
> apartment, I would expect the person Oswald spoke with would have come
> forward
And just when exactly did I say Oswald had already spoken to ANYONE about an
apartment?
> and mentioned to the police, after hearing that Oswald, the
> world famous assassin of President Kennedy claimed he was carrying
> curtain rods and not the rifle, to verify or deny his story. You are
> making this claim that "Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the
> apartment." What proof do you have to offer that he did (or didnt) do
> any such thing?
That no one came forward is strong evidence Oswald had not yet viewed or
rented an apartment. You should know that. You said as much above.
> Where have you come up with this episode in Oswald's
> life?
From his asking Marina, on the evening of 11/22/63, to bring the girls and
live with him in Dallas. Surely you don't think he meant for them all to
live in the one room in the rooming house, do you? What alternative was
there but to rent an apartment?
> Furthermore, it doesnt make sense for someone to concern themselves
> with "curtain rods" when they don't even have a place to hang them.
Why not. Maybe Oswald knew of an apartment that needed curtains and rods.
Maybe he was just out to make sure he could fix a place up well enough to
attract Marina back.
> Think about it.
I have, many times.
> And again, I bring up the point:
>
> Why would anyone go to all the trouble of wrapping a few "curtain
> rods" up so securely just to transport them from some place a few miles
> from where they live?
Why did Ruth Paine wrap them "so securely" just to store them in her own
garage?
Anthony Marsh
Oh, I see now. So Ruby walking around with his pistol all the time
proves that he was part of the conspiracy to assassinate the President.
Anthony Marsh
So, why didn't the grassy knoll shooter leave his rifle if your position
is that assassins always leave behind their rifles to get away quickly?
>
>>>>Do many assassins just leave the
>>>>rifle with their fingerprints all over it to be found by the police?
>>>
>>>
>>> I can think of one who did. Shame he didn`t take it with him, Baker
>>>with his pistol out could have Ruby-ied him on the second floor
>>>landing, saving Tippit`s life.
>>>
>>
>>Again folks, notice how Bud can not answer a question and present
>>examples, because he does not know the answer and will not do his homework.
>
>
> My dog ate my homework. Notice folks that Marsh asks for examples
> that match this unique and specific instance.
>
I did not specify just the JFK case. The question was about OTHER cases.
And you could not answer it.
>
>>>>>>>If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
>>>>>>>same to McDonald?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The assassination may have nothing to do with killing Tippit.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The man claiming to be a Secret Service man on the knoll may not
>>>>>have anything to do with the assassination either.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sure, spectators normally pretend to be SS agents and flash genuine SS
>>>>identification. Happens every day, eh?
>>>
>>>
>>> I don`t know the motivations of the person claiming to be a SS
>>>agent on the knoll, do you? Heck, if Tippit`s murder can be unconnected
>>>to the assasination, why not the bogus SS agent?
>>>
>>
>>I was not talking about motive. I was talking about the uniqueness of
>>the event. Point to me any time that such a thing has ever happened
>>before.
>
>
> Yah, I would say that that is only time that Kennedy was shot that
> someone claimed to be a SS agent.
>
Again, you can not meet the challenge. The point is to point out any
other case. You can't. Yet you tried to trivialize the event as if it
were a normal occurrence.
>
>>And genuine SS identification when no SS agents were on the ground.
>
>
> Genuine, huh? You can tell by the hologram on them, right?
>
Have you ever seen genuine SS identification? No. I have. Do you suppose
that the SS issues identification which is quite easy to fake so that
people can easily pretend to be SS agents? What's the point of issuing
genuine SS identification if it can be easily faked by just anyone? How
many average people are walking around carrying genuine SS
identification to use when a cop tries to arrest them?
johni...@aol.com
> "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >
> > "Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> > news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> > rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> > get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> > with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
> >
> > If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> > Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
> >
> > curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
> >
> > Oswald left the scene.
> >
> > same to McDonald?
> >
> > whatsoever.
> >
> >
> > Very good points Russ. There appears to be many problems with the concept
> > of Oswald having already rented an apartment in Dallas.
>
> I have never suggested Oswald had ALREADY rented an apartment. Let's keep
> our accusations correct, please.
---> Oh well, then that makes perfect sense. Everyone steals curtain
rods before they actually rent their apt.
>
> > He may well have
> > wanted to
> > reconcile with Marina, but probably that was as far as it went, with no
> > evidence to
> > support the notion that specific plans were in place, such as renting an
> > apartment. And
> > when Marina appeared unwilling to reconcile at that moment, this may well
> > have been
> > when Oswald decided to act on his plan, and took the rifle with him to
> work
> > the next
> > morning.
>
> Ahh, the old "Marina's rejection drove him to do it" excuse. So, you're
> saying he made the bag just in case Marina turned him down? A little
> contingency planning for rejection?
---> Having a Plan "B" was part of Oswald's pattern of behavior, i.e.
the Walker shooting, and his note to Marina on what to do if he was
caught. Do you really think he would have gone ahead and shot JFK if
Marina had taken him back so they could start anew?
>
> > If they were indeed curtain rods in the package, why did he deny the
> curtain
> > rod story?
>
> Because he'd stolen them from the Paines?
---> See above. Stealing curtain rods before renting an apartment
makes no sense.
>
> > Why kill Tippitt?
>
> Perhaps because he thought he'd been set up and was determined to not be
> apprehended?
---> Right. He had curtain rods to hang in an apt. he hadn't rented
yet.
>
> > Why flee the Book Depository in the first place?
>
> What evidence do you have that he "FLED" the TSBD. Look at his actual
> actions and the time they took and I think you'll see a man "fleeing" rather
> casually.
---> Exactly. That's how he got away ... casually ... while everyone
else panicked.
>
> > Why did
> > no one come forward
> > to say that Oswald rented an apartment from them?
>
> Because he hadn't done so yet. Just how hard is this stuff to actually
> figure out?
---> See above.
>
> > Where did he get these
> > curtain rods?
>
> ***IF*** there were curtain rods, he presumably stole them from the Paine
> garage.
>
> > Where did the curtain rods go?
>
> Damn good question. One answer ***MIGHT*** be that a conspirator took them
> when he left the building.
---> Who?
>
> > All of these issues point to Oswald guilt.
>
> Not a one of them makes the case.
---> Makes a helluva lot more sense than stealing curtains before even
renting a phantom apt. does.
> --
> John Hill (joisa)
>
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
johni...@aol.com
Robert Harris wrote:
> In article <11fv7dt...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Rockett Crawford" <cap...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
> > "Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
> > news:UFMLe.585$286.422@trndny09...
> > > Russ Burr wrote:
> > >
> > > > And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> > > > curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
> > > >
> > >
> > > How do we know he didn't? The police may have lied about what Oswald
> > > said. What did Oswald really say about his lunch?
> > >
> >
> > Interesting. I was wondering how Conspiracy buffs would try to
> > rationalize this away, because this by itself makes the curtain rods
> > argument fall on it's vertical smile.
>
>
> Nonsense.
>
> The *LAST* think Oswald wanted to do was exonerate himself.
---> The last "think" ?
>
> You need to grasp that concept if you ever hope to understand this case.
>
---> Yes of course ... everyone wanted to go to the electric chair in
those days.
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Harris
jwrush
I don't understand how you arrive at your weird conclusions.
Caeruleo
"Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com> wrote:
Here ya go:
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/23/2361-001.gif
Plainly shows Agent Howlett submitting the rods to the DPD on 3-15-63 &
then the rods being returned to him on 3-24-63. This is rather strange
because the WC testimony of Ruth Paine, taken at her house in Irving, in
which her questioner, Jenner, & this same Agent Howlett, accompanied her
into her garage, at which time the rods were "found" on a shelf & taken
down by Howlett, occurred on 3-23-63, eight days after the rods are shown
by the above document to have been submitted to the DPD, & one day before
they are shown as having been returned to Howlett. But it gets even
stranger. In the version of this same document which was reproduced in
the WC volumes,
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0394b.htm
the date for return of the rods to Howlett was changed from 3-24 to 3-26,
but the date of 3-15 for the initial submission of the rods to the DPD
remained 3-15.
jwrush
Oh, hey, hey, yoo hoo!! I can answer that one!! Because there WAS NO grassy
knoll shooter.
Caeruleo
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote:
> "Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4301f3e...@news20.forteinc.com...
> > On 15 Aug 2005 11:53:42 -0400, "jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:4300af2...@news20.forteinc.com...
> >>> On 14 Aug 2005 22:39:02 -0400, "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:42ffce85...@news20.forteinc.com...
> >>>>On 14 Aug 2005 13:42:47 -0400, Russ Burr <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had
> >>>>>already
> >>>>>rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> >>>>>get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> >>>>>with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment
> >>>>>ASAP?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> >>>>>Paines?
> >>>>
> >>>>Yes, Russell. That's exactly where he got them.
> >>>>
> >>>>Then where did these curtain rods go that Oswald supposedly took with
> >>>>him
> >>>>to the TSBD?
> >>>
> >>> They were found by the DPD, probably at the depository.
> >>
> >>> Robert Harris
> >>
> >>Show us some documentation about this, Harris. Who found them, who turned
> >>them in, where's the DPD report about them being found. Where are the
> >>photos
> >>of them? All I've seen are photos of Ruth Paine's curtain rods in her
> >>garage.
> >
> > Why were they in the DPD evidence locker on March 15, 1964, Mr. Rush?
>
> Show us some documentation about this, Harris. Who found them, who turned
> them in, where's the DPD report about them being found. Where are the photos
> of them? All I've seen are photos of Ruth Paine's curtain rods in her
> garage.
Two versions of the same DPD document showing submission of the rods by
Agent Howlett to the DPD on 3-15-63, but with a discrepancy on the date
they were returned to him, the first version giving 3-24 & the second
showing 3-26:
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/23/2361-001.gif
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0394b.htm
Caeruleo
wrote:
> "Steve" <drumr...@wmconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:1124208933.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > and mentioned to the police, after hearing that Oswald, the
> > world famous assassin of President Kennedy claimed he was carrying
> > curtain rods and not the rifle, to verify or deny his story. You are
> > making this claim that "Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the
> > apartment." What proof do you have to offer that he did (or didnt) do
> > any such thing?
>
> That no one came forward is strong evidence Oswald had not yet viewed or
> rented an apartment. You should know that. You said as much above.
And that to me would be a very strong argument against the curtain rods.
If he had not yet even viewed an apartment, he would not know yet whether
or not he would eventually be moving into an apartment that already had
curtained windows. I find it difficult to support the idea that he would
obtain these rods "just in case" he eventually moved in, with Marina & the
kids or without them, to another apartment which wasn't already furnished
with them.
> > Furthermore, it doesnt make sense for someone to concern themselves
> > with "curtain rods" when they don't even have a place to hang them.
>
> Why not. Maybe Oswald knew of an apartment that needed curtains and rods.
I submit that if he "knew" of such a place, he would have had to have
"viewed" it, since there would not be any other possible way that he would
know that such an apartment didn't have curtains, or rods, eh? ;-) That
would directly contradict what you said above, "That no one came forward
is strong evidence Oswald had not yet viewed or rented an apartment." If
he hasn't yet "viewed" such an apartment, then he doesn't yet "know" of
such an apartment either.
> Maybe he was just out to make sure he could fix a place up well enough to
> attract Marina back.
But without specific "viewing" of an apartment, he can't yet know that
they won't be moving into an apartment that isn't *already* fixed up
nicely, at least with curtains, if not with any other furnishings. And I
really can't imagine that he'd try to move them into an unfurnished
apartment on their very limited means, since if he did they'd have to
acquire furniture for it somehow, & unless someone would have donated or
loaned such furnishings to them, they'd have to pay for furniture. A
furnished apartment is much more likely to already have curtains than an
unfurnished one.
Remember that the apartment he was already living in at this time was
indeed furnished, with a bed & other items, & with curtains. I can't at
the moment recall whether or not their other places, such as the one on
Neely with the famous backyard, which you & I both entered, was already
furnished, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't. I don't recall anything
about them ever purchasing much in the way of furniture.
Btw, ltns. ;-) How are you & the wife doing? Would love to see y'all
again sometime. :)
Caeruleo
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote:
> "John Hill" <jo...@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:4300...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> > "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >>
> >> "Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> >> news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >> John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
> >> rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> >> get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> >> with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment ASAP?
> >>
> >> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> >> Paines? Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
> >>
> >> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> >> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
> >>
> >> Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
> >> Oswald left the scene.
> >>
Would you have done so even if those who set you up had told you
beforehand that your wife & children would be murdered if you talked?
> I wouldn't go around killing cops or throwing my hands
> up when apprehended and saying "Oh well, I guess this is it!" and then
> trying to shoot another cop. That was the same as a confession to the
> original crime.
Yes, which someone might indeed do if to instead name those who set one
up would probably ensure that one's family would die.
> I believe you are thinking of the plots to Hollywood chase movies like "Four
> Days of the Condor" and "Conspiracy Theory" and "The Pelican Brief".
>
> The best thing to do in a real situation like that is to go to some TV
> station or newspaper and tell them what is going on.
Even if it is virtually certain to cause the deaths of one's wife &
children?
> I'd prefer a TV station
> in 1963 because they could film or tape an interview before anyone on the
> outside knew I was at a TV station. I certainly wouldn't go around shooting
> cops. That's illegal and worth the electric chair on its own merits.
One who has been set up, but is afraid to say so for the safety of one's
family, might indeed risk shooting a cop to avoid capture, & be quite
reluctant to reveal to anyone, on television or any other venue, what had
really happened.
Note carefully that I do NOT believe for a moment that he was set up, or
that any threat was made to him regarding his family. I am merely playing
Devil's Advocate to your argument that if he WAS set up, he would
necessarily reveal that. No, he wouldn't necessarily reveal that,
depending on the circumstances.
Bud
This is what I originally said... "Because carrying it would have made
escape unlikely for the shooter. Oseald that is". That was my position,
that had Oz taken the rifle, it would have decreased his chance of escape
(almost to zero, I think). I mentioned an apple, so you brought up an
apple, James Earl Ray. That is how you argue, bring up an irrelevancy and
claim it`s the same. I was only subtly playing along with tangent, never
taking it seriously. Funny you didn`t notice.
> >
> >>>>Do many assassins just leave the
> >>>>rifle with their fingerprints all over it to be found by the police?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I can think of one who did. Shame he didn`t take it with him, Baker
> >>>with his pistol out could have Ruby-ied him on the second floor
> >>>landing, saving Tippit`s life.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Again folks, notice how Bud can not answer a question and present
> >>examples, because he does not know the answer and will not do his homework.
> >
> >
> > My dog ate my homework. Notice folks that Marsh asks for examples
> > that match this unique and specific instance.
> >
>
> I did not specify just the JFK case. The question was about OTHER cases.
> And you could not answer it.
Of course I could answer it, anyone can do that. I`d rather expose the
silliness of the question. It is like the OJ defense pointing out that
wife batterers rarely kill their spouse. What they didn`t say is that when
a battered wife *IS* killed (which Nicole was), the husband (or ex) is
often the murderer. So your question as to how many assassins act as Oz
did is irrelevant. Even serial killers, which there is a larger data base
than assassins, don`t all do all things the same. Would you have them say
"Well, this BTK didn`t act like Bundy, so we must have the wrong man."?
> >
> >>>>>>>If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> >>>>>>>same to McDonald?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The assassination may have nothing to do with killing Tippit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The man claiming to be a Secret Service man on the knoll may not
> >>>>>have anything to do with the assassination either.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Sure, spectators normally pretend to be SS agents and flash genuine SS
> >>>>identification. Happens every day, eh?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I don`t know the motivations of the person claiming to be a SS
> >>>agent on the knoll, do you? Heck, if Tippit`s murder can be unconnected
> >>>to the assasination, why not the bogus SS agent?
> >>>
> >>
> >>I was not talking about motive. I was talking about the uniqueness of
> >>the event. Point to me any time that such a thing has ever happened
> >>before.
> >
> >
> > Yah, I would say that that is only time that Kennedy was shot that
> > someone claimed to be a SS agent.
> >
>
> Again, you can not meet the challenge.
I`d rather point out the silliness of the question. What
difference does it make if in no other case did a spectator claim to be
an SS agent? That does nothing to establish that the person claiming to
be the SS agent in this case was part of a conspiracy to kill JFK.
> The point is to point out any
> other case.
Out of the huge data base of public figures killed front of a crowd?
> You can't. Yet you tried to trivialize the event as if it
> were a normal occurrence.
No, I didn`t say it was normal. I said it may have been unconnected to
the assasination. Remember, you said the Tippit shooting could have been
unconnected to the assassination. I merely pointed out that this event at
the knoll with the phony SS agent also could be unconnected to the
assassination. Perhaps a person who fantasized about being an SS agent, to
the point of having a bogus (but realistic looking) SS ID made. Standing
on the curb, living out his fantasy when the oppertunity of a lifetime
presents itself, and he can take his role playing to the next level. This
is certainly no sillier than some of the explaination sI`ve seen CT
present as to how Oz could be innocent. BTW, did you notice how much of
this scenario mirrors Oz`s mentality and with his bogus ID and role
playing?
> >
> >>And genuine SS identification when no SS agents were on the ground.
> >
> >
> > Genuine, huh? You can tell by the hologram on them, right?
> >
>
> Have you ever seen genuine SS identification? No. I have. Do you suppose
> that the SS issues identification which is quite easy to fake so that
> people can easily pretend to be SS agents? What's the point of issuing
> genuine SS identification if it can be easily faked by just anyone? How
> many average people are walking around carrying genuine SS
> identification to use when a cop tries to arrest them?
In other words, you have no idea whether the ID shown was genuine.
The best that can be said is that it was accepted to be genuine by the
people it was shown.
Peter Makres
"Caeruleo" <si...@txucom.net> wrote in message
news:silmo-F1A52C....@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Oh yes, this whole idea that Oswald had curtain rods first and foremost on
his mind, for an apartment not yet rented, on the day of (and the night
before) the President's visit is really grabbing at straws, in my opinion.
Peter
Steve
Steve wrote:
> Where do you come up with these scenarios? You aren't making sense
> here, John. If Oswald had even spoken with anyone about renting an
> apartment, I would expect the person Oswald spoke with would have come
> forward
John Hill writes:
And just when exactly did I say Oswald had already spoken to ANYONE about
an apartment?
Steve writes:
Okay then, since you are not making any sense here, why would anyone be
so concerned with curtain rods if they havent looked at an apartment yet,
or spoken to anyone about an apt?? If Oswald hadnt even gotten a place for
Marina and the kids to move into, why in the world would anyone be
carrying curtain rods to work with them for something they don't even have
to use them for yet?
> and mentioned to the police, after hearing that Oswald, the
> world famous assassin of President Kennedy claimed he was carrying
> curtain rods and not the rifle, to verify or deny his story. You are
> making this claim that "Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the
> apartment." What proof do you have to offer that he did (or didnt) do
> any such thing?
John Hill writes:
That no one came forward is strong evidence Oswald had not yet viewed or
rented an apartment. You should know that. You said as much above.
Steve writes:
Because you are making it sound like Oswald already has a place to
hang his "curtain rods"?
> Where have you come up with this episode in Oswald's
> life?
John Hill writes:
From his asking Marina, on the evening of 11/22/63, to bring the girls and
live with him in Dallas. Surely you don't think he meant for them all to
live in the one room in the rooming house, do you? What alternative was
there but to rent an apartment?
Steve writes:
I think you mean that he asked Marina on 11-21-63. What you are saying
is making little sense, John. On one hand you are saying that Oswald had
not yet even looked at an apt. therefore has not spoken with anyone about
renting an apt. in which to utilize his "curtian rods" On the other hand,
you're saying that Oswald wanted to "bring the girls and live with him in
Dallas" and asked Marina on the evening of 11-21-63 about it. Yet, he has
no place to hang the "curtain rods", but is so concerned about them. He
also has no place lined up to move his girls in to. I fail to see your
logic here.
> Furthermore, it doesnt make sense for someone to concern themselves
> with "curtain rods" when they don't even have a place to hang them.
John Hill writes:
Why not. Maybe Oswald knew of an apartment that needed curtains and rods.
Maybe he was just out to make sure he could fix a place up well enough to
attract Marina back.
Steve writes:
This isn't making sense at all. If Oswald hasnt spoken with, or even
looked at an apt. (which, by the way, you can't look at an apt. without
SOMEONE showing it to you) how in the world could he "know of" an apt.
that needed curtain rods? And if you say someone could have mentioned it
to him, you are bringing in a person who could have easily come forward
and mentioned that Oswald talked with them about renting an apt. But we
don't have anyone who did any such thing. Oswald just happened to have
carried the "curtain rods" on the same day his rifle was found at the
depsoitory building, from where the shots were fired that killed the
president of the united states. If your scenario were being brought up in
the courtroom, it would never stand up, John.
> Think about it.
I have, many times.
> And again, I bring up the point:
> Why would anyone go to all the trouble of wrapping a few "curtain
> rods" up so securely just to transport them from some place a few miles
> from where they live?
Why did Ruth Paine wrap them "so securely" just to store them in her own
garage?
Steve writes:
Well, she is alive, John, Why don't you ask her, or, maybe Russ Burr, the
next time he speaks with her will ask her. Russ?
jwrush
LOL. You are talking about a Hollywood movie type plot, not what actually
happened in Dallas. You can invent all sorts of movie scenarios such as
"Four Days of the Condor", "The Pelican Brief", "Conspiracy Theory", and
many others.
But detectives and investigators of real crime cases can not use contrived
movie scenarios to solve real cases.
Oswald, like many other criminals who have killed someone, was clearly
fleeing and trying not to be captured for his crime.
jwrush
"1 legible print - does not belong to Oswald". I'll bet there were a
couple of million curtain rods in garages in Dallas that had prints that
didn't belong to Oswald's. I've got some in my own garage right now that
contain prints that don't belong to Oswald.
Robert Harris
>
>Robert Harris wrote:
>> In article <11fv7dt...@corp.supernews.com>,
>> "Rockett Crawford" <cap...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>
>> > "Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
>> > news:UFMLe.585$286.422@trndny09...
>> > > Russ Burr wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
>> > > > curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > How do we know he didn't? The police may have lied about what Oswald
>> > > said. What did Oswald really say about his lunch?
>> > >
>> >
>> > Interesting. I was wondering how Conspiracy buffs would try to
>> > rationalize this away, because this by itself makes the curtain rods
>> > argument fall on it's vertical smile.
>>
>>
>> Nonsense.
>>
>> The *LAST* think Oswald wanted to do was exonerate himself.
>
>---> The last "think" ?
And I will post a thousand more typos, John - just so you nutters will
have *something* to feel good about.
>
>>
>> You need to grasp that concept if you ever hope to understand this case.
>>
>
>---> Yes of course ... everyone wanted to go to the electric chair in
>those days.
Oswald already proved that he was suicidal, in Russia and in the Texas
Theater. What do you suppose he *expected* to happen when he decided
to take on a dozen or so, heavily armed cops?
He knew he was going to die - probably on 11/22. That's why he took
off his wedding band and put on his Marine corps ring, John.
Robert Harris
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
Robert Harris
wrote:
>
>"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote in message
>news:4301...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:430162c...@news20.forteinc.com...
>> On 15 Aug 2005 11:40:53 -0400, "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4300af2...@news20.forteinc.com...
>>>On 14 Aug 2005 22:39:02 -0400, "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:42ffce85...@news20.forteinc.com...
>>>>On 14 Aug 2005 13:42:47 -0400, Russ Burr <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
>>>>>rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
>>>>>get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
>>>>>with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment
>>>>>ASAP?
>>>>>
>>>>>If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>>>>>Paines?
>>>>
>>>>Yes, Russell. That's exactly where he got them.
>>>>
>>>>Then where did these curtain rods go that Oswald supposedly took with him
>>>>to the TSBD?
>>>
>>>They were found by the DPD, probably at the depository.
>>>
>>>Prove it!
>>
>> Just read Frazier's testimony. He drove Oswald and the curtain rods to the
>> Depository, and never expressed the slightest doubt that the package
>> contained curtain rods.
>>
>> Do you have a better explanation for why the curtain rods were at the DPD
>> 8 days before they were "discovered" in Paine's garage?
>>
>> Look, I own a MC rifle. If you ever get the chance, pick one up and
>> examine it closely. Wrapped in brown paper, it would be a hundred times
>> heavier and far more massive than a pair of curtain rods. There wouldn't
>> be even the most remote, resemblance.
>>
>> Oswald would never have tried to pass a rifle like that off, as a pair of
>> curtain rods. Frazier would have thought he was crazy.
>
>Oswald didn't tell Frazier "two curtain rods" did he? Oswald just said
>"curtain rods", which Fraizer probably thought was many curtain rods. These
>many curtain rods were never found in the Book Depository,
Then how did they get into the DPD evidence locker, eight days before
they were "discovered" in Paine's garage?
Robert Harris
>
>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:4301f3e...@news20.forteinc.com...
>> On 15 Aug 2005 11:53:42 -0400, "jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4300af2...@news20.forteinc.com...
>>>> On 14 Aug 2005 22:39:02 -0400, "Peter Makres" <pmak...@msn.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Robert Harris" <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:42ffce85...@news20.forteinc.com...
>>>>>On 14 Aug 2005 13:42:47 -0400, Russ Burr <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had
>>>>>>already
>>>>>>rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
>>>>>>get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
>>>>>>with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment
>>>>>>ASAP?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
>>>>>>Paines?
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, Russell. That's exactly where he got them.
>>>>>
>>>>>Then where did these curtain rods go that Oswald supposedly took with
>>>>>him
>>>>>to the TSBD?
>>>>
>>>> They were found by the DPD, probably at the depository.
>>>
>>>> Robert Harris
>>>
>>>Show us some documentation about this, Harris. Who found them, who turned
>>>them in, where's the DPD report about them being found. Where are the
>>>photos
>>>of them? All I've seen are photos of Ruth Paine's curtain rods in her
>>>garage.
>>
>> Why were they in the DPD evidence locker on March 15, 1964, Mr. Rush?
>
>Show us some documentation about this, Harris.
I am not going to repost documentation that everyone here, except a
few newibies has seen and is totally familiar with.
Look up one of hundreds of posting on the subject at Google, and if
you really can't find it, let me know and I will post the
documentation.
As for how it got there, it was put there by the cops.
John Hill
Yep. One of these documents is a fake. Why was DPD faking documents?
--
John Hill (joisa)
>
> http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/23/2361-001.gif
>
>
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0394b.ht
m
>
John Hill
And read it and weep fellows. :-)
> http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/23/2361-001.gif
>
> Plainly shows Agent Howlett submitting the rods to the DPD on 3-15-63 &
> then the rods being returned to him on 3-24-63. This is rather strange
> because the WC testimony of Ruth Paine, taken at her house in Irving, in
> which her questioner, Jenner, & this same Agent Howlett, accompanied her
> into her garage, at which time the rods were "found" on a shelf & taken
> down by Howlett, occurred on 3-23-63, eight days after the rods are shown
> by the above document to have been submitted to the DPD, & one day before
> they are shown as having been returned to Howlett. But it gets even
> stranger. In the version of this same document which was reproduced in
> the WC volumes,
Yeah, kind of tough to submit the rods to the lab ***EIGHT*** days
***BEFORE*** they're found.
>
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0394b.ht
m
>
> the date for return of the rods to Howlett was changed from 3-24 to 3-26,
Which amounts to faked evidence.
> but the date of 3-15 for the initial submission of the rods to the DPD
> remained 3-15.
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
news:11g1u7p...@corp.supernews.com...
> > curtain
> > > rod story?
> >
> > Because he'd stolen them from the Paines?
>
> assassinating the President of the United States??
Perhaps Oswald rather wisely didn't want to admit to ANYTHING until he had a
lawyer.
--
John Hill (joisa)
>
> Rockett Crawford
>
>
>
John Hill
> > news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >>
> >> "Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> >> news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
already
> >> rented an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> >> get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> >> with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment
ASAP?
> >>
> >> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> >>
> >> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
> >>
> > curtain
> >> rod story?
> >
> > Because he'd stolen them from the Paines?
> >
> >
> > Perhaps because he thought he'd been set up and was determined to not be
> > apprehended?
>
> If I thought I had been set up, the first thing I would do is call the
cops
> or the media.
But maybe Oswald was involved and didn't want to be captured at all.
You have to remember that Oswald could have been involved, have not been the
shooter, and still realized he was being set up as the shooter.
> I think I would have gone to the nearest TV station and told
> my story to the reporters so they would have it on tape or film in case I
> got arrested or shot. I wouldn't go around killing cops or throwing my
hands
> up when apprehended and saying "Oh well, I guess this is it!" and then
> trying to shoot another cop.
He tried "to shoot another cop" AFTER he'd thrown up his hands and said "Oh
well, I guess this is it!"???
> That was the same as a confession to the
> original crime.
How so?
> I believe you are thinking of the plots to Hollywood chase movies like
"Four
> Days of the Condor" and "Conspiracy Theory" and "The Pelican Brief".
Never seen a single one of them.
> The best thing to do in a real situation like that is to go to some TV
> station or newspaper and tell them what is going on. I'd prefer a TV
station
> in 1963 because they could film or tape an interview before anyone on the
> outside knew I was at a TV station. I certainly wouldn't go around
shooting
> cops. That's illegal and worth the electric chair on its own merits.
Of course it is. But if Oswald was involved in the assassination (and I
rather think he was) any confession of any part would be to confess to
accessory to murder and get the electric chair. Oswald could have been a
patsy for the SHOOTING and still have been involved.
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
Points well taken.
--
John Hill (joisa)
Anthony Marsh
Not exactly. Not fleeing to Canada or Mexico as other infamous murderers
might. Just went to a movie. Most infamous murderers do that? Just stick
around waiting to be picked up?
You also need to separate the crimes. Many of us believe that that
Oswald did kill Tippit, but we are not so sure that he killed President
Kennedy.
John Hill
> > news:42ff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >> John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had
already
> >> rented
> >
> > already done so, there would be paperwork and landlord evidence of it.
My
> > suggestion was that he may have known of an apartment he might be
> > interested
> > in renting and may have known, even if by only looking in the windows,
> > that
> > it needed curtains and rods.
>
> ROTFLMAO!!!!! Now you've got him looking at an apartment and looking
> throught the windows and noticing they needed curtains and rods!!!!
You've never looked through a window when no one was available to open the
house/apartment for you to see it? I certainly have, many times.
> So why
> would he shoot Tippit and try to shoot McDonald?
Because he either:
1) Was involved at some level and did not want to be apprehended, or
2) He realized he'd been set up to take the fall and didn't want to be
apprehended.
I, for one, am not saying that Oswald's post assassination actions were
rational. But, given the circumstances he may have found himself under, he
may not have thought rationally at all.
> >> an apartment in Dallas and had arrived on Thursday the 21st to
> >> get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> >> with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment
ASAP?
> >
> > That would be one perfectly valid reason for going on Thursday instead
of
> > Friday.
>
> But you said he hadn't rented the apartment yet.
Correct. Thus the "hurry" to get to Irving on Thursday so he'd have the
entire weekend, including Friday evening, to shop.
> You seem to be neglecting
> something...
Not at all. I'm well aware of the President's visit to Dallas on Friday. We
all are. No one, LNT, CT or undecided is forgetting or neglecting something
so astoundingly obvious and universally known.
> the President of the United States was going to ride past his
> warehouse on Friday,
What evidence do you have that Oswald knew, on Thursday or earlier, the
motorcade would pass in front of the TSBD? His question to another TSBD
worker about the motorcade suggests he did not know exactly what it's route
was, or that he even knew there was a motorcade.
> and Oswald was a self-appointed Marxist
> "revolutionary".
So were many others. His being one is not evidence he shot anyone.
> He wasn't an interior decorator.
Strawman arguement. No one ever said he was.
> And after he shot the
> President,
Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
> he shot a cop and tried to shoot another one. Do you guys
> actually believe this stuff you type out?
It raises enough reasonable doubt to make me suspicious.
> >> If so, where was he going to get the curtain rods? Steal them from the
> >> Paines?
> >
> > Why not. It's not like he'd never stolen before, is it?
>
> The danged thief!!
You didn't answer the question. You just got sarcastic. Sarcasm is not
evidence.
> >> Had he already measured them from his "new digs"?
> >
> > Many, if not most, curtain rods are adjustable in length and will fit a
> > rather wide variety of window widths, and you already know this, so your
> > question is silly.
>
> The apartment story is sillier.
Why? Don't just say it. Back it up.
You do realize he offered, to Marina, to get a new apartment on Friday,
don't you?
> >> And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> >> curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
> >
> > How do we know for certain he didn't? Where are the recordings of his
> > interogations? Where are the notes taken at his interogations?
> > All we have are notes made from recollection - after the fact and a
> > handful
> > of 1 to 2 page reports. One might think a report on the interogation of
> > the
> > suspected murderer of the President might go into a bit more detail.
> >
> >> Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor
> >
> > Because that's where it was used, by someone including the possibility
of
> > Oswald, to fire the shots.
> >
> >> after
> >> Oswald left the scene.
> >
> > What does "after Oswald left the scene" have to do with it? It could
just
> > as
> > well have been discovered while he was still. Your implication seems to
be
> > that because it was found after Oswald had left that that therefore
means
> > Oswald was fleeing the scene.
> >
> >> If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> >> same to McDonald?
> >
> > One oft suggested reason, which you are more than well associated with,
is
> > that Oswald realized he'd been set up and was running for his life, in
his
> > view.
>
> Set up by whom?
Duh....Conspirators, of whom Oswald just might have been a member.
> Who set him up?
Same answer as above.
> >> This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
> >> whatsoever.
> >
> > So, you think Oswald meant for Marina and the two girls to move into the
> > single room in the rooming house with him and share a bathroom with
> > others?
> > You don't think he would have been looking for an apartment?
>
> Not after he learne that the President was coming to town.
Why. Many people learned the President was coming to town and didn't chance
their plans over it. I rather imagine any number of apartment and house
transactions occured despite the President's visit.
> Marina and the
> > girls wouldn't have wanted to live in the one room (and I doubt the
> > landlady
> > would have permitted it) so Oswald would have HAD to have looked for an
> > apartment.
>
> Oswald was looking for an escape route.
After the assassination? You bet.
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
>
> "Steve" <drumr...@wmconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:1124208933.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> >> If this were true, why didn't the Landlord or Apartment owner come
> >> forward and tell this?
> >
> >
> >
> > John Hill writes:
> >
> >
> > Because Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the apartment. Can't anyone
> >
> > figure this stuff out for themselves?
>
> Of course we can figure out our own Hollywood movie scenarios. It's fun to
> do. I love spy movies and chase films.
So do I. But not having yet rented or viewed an apartment is a rather
mundane normal thing, not the stuff of thrillers.
I myself have not rented or viewed an apartment yet for over 15 years.
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
news:1124127218....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Russ Burr wrote:
> > John Hill and others has offered the possibility that Oswald had already
> > get some curtain rods for his new apartment and attempt to reconcile
> > with Marina so she and the girls would move into this new apartment
ASAP?
> >
>
> I don't think I understand the significance of the source of the
> curtain rods.
>
> Cheap curtain rods are extensible. They don't need to be measured.
>
> >
> > And if this was true why didn't he tell the DPD that he did bring
> > curtain rods to work with him, instead of denying that he had them?
>
>
> 1) There never were any curtain rods, but the package had nothing to do
> with the assassination. It could be that the curtain rods story was a
> "none of your business" story.
This is an idea I've agreeed with for a long time.
> 2) There never were any curtain rods and there was a link to the
> assassination.
>
> 3) There were curtain rods, which we should be able to assume had
> nothing to do with the assassination.
>
> Indications are that #2 is false because witness accounts suggest the
> package was not of the proper dimensions.
Agreed.
--
John Hill (joisa)
> > Why instead did the DPD find Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor after
> > Oswald left the scene.
> >
> > If they were simply curtain rods why kill Tippit and attempt to do the
> > same to McDonald?
> >
> > This new apartment idea doesn't make any sense nor do I think it's true
> > whatsoever.
> >
> > Russ
>
>
Anthony Marsh
>
> Steve wrote:
>
>
>> Where do you come up with these scenarios? You aren't making sense
>>here, John. If Oswald had even spoken with anyone about renting an
>>apartment, I would expect the person Oswald spoke with would have come
>>forward
>
>
>
> John Hill writes:
>
>
> And just when exactly did I say Oswald had already spoken to ANYONE about
> an apartment?
>
>
> Steve writes:
>
> Okay then, since you are not making any sense here, why would anyone be
> so concerned with curtain rods if they havent looked at an apartment yet,
> or spoken to anyone about an apt?? If Oswald hadnt even gotten a place for
> Marina and the kids to move into, why in the world would anyone be
> carrying curtain rods to work with them for something they don't even have
> to use them for yet?
>
Why it is that WC defenders keep asking silly questions like this, as if
they never had any real life experiences? Someone preparing to move can
want to buy something for a new apartment even before renting the
apartment. It's called being prepared. And if you can get it for free,
hey that's even better.
And your logic is very limited. Getting the curtain rods from the Paines
the only way Oswald would be able to get them back to his room or an
apartment was by getting a ride from Frazier as he normally did.
>
>>and mentioned to the police, after hearing that Oswald, the
>>world famous assassin of President Kennedy claimed he was carrying
>>curtain rods and not the rifle, to verify or deny his story. You are
>>making this claim that "Oswald had not yet viewed or rented the
>>apartment." What proof do you have to offer that he did (or didnt) do
>>any such thing?
>
>
> John Hill writes:
>
> That no one came forward is strong evidence Oswald had not yet viewed or
> rented an apartment. You should know that. You said as much above.
>
> Steve writes:
>
> Because you are making it sound like Oswald already has a place to
> hang his "curtain rods"?
>
I think he did, but others think it was in preparation for getting an
apartment big enough for his family.
>
>>Where have you come up with this episode in Oswald's
>>life?
>
>
> John Hill writes:
>
> From his asking Marina, on the evening of 11/22/63, to bring the girls and
> live with him in Dallas. Surely you don't think he meant for them all to
> live in the one room in the rooming house, do you? What alternative was
>
> there but to rent an apartment?
>
> Steve writes:
>
> I think you mean that he asked Marina on 11-21-63. What you are saying
> is making little sense, John. On one hand you are saying that Oswald had
> not yet even looked at an apt. therefore has not spoken with anyone about
> renting an apt. in which to utilize his "curtian rods" On the other hand,
No. Oswald is looking forward to, anticipating getting an apartment for
his family, because he thinks that he can talk Marina into moving back
in with him. Based on that belief he is getting things for the new
apartment. That may be his last trip out to Irving and his last chance
to get the curtain rods.
> you're saying that Oswald wanted to "bring the girls and live with him in
> Dallas" and asked Marina on the evening of 11-21-63 about it. Yet, he has
> no place to hang the "curtain rods", but is so concerned about them. He
> also has no place lined up to move his girls in to. I fail to see your
> logic here.
>
One does not have to currently have the place to use something in order
to pick it up for free in anticipation of needing it the next week.
Most apartments come with windows and most windows need some type of
curtains and often curtain rods.
>
>>Furthermore, it doesnt make sense for someone to concern themselves
>>with "curtain rods" when they don't even have a place to hang them.
>
>
> John Hill writes:
>
> Why not. Maybe Oswald knew of an apartment that needed curtains and rods.
> Maybe he was just out to make sure he could fix a place up well enough to
> attract Marina back.
>
> Steve writes:
>
> This isn't making sense at all. If Oswald hasnt spoken with, or even
> looked at an apt. (which, by the way, you can't look at an apt. without
> SOMEONE showing it to you) how in the world could he "know of" an apt.
> that needed curtain rods? And if you say someone could have mentioned it
> to him, you are bringing in a person who could have easily come forward
Again, you seem to have no experience with such things. For several
years I had several different types of curtain rods in case I needed
them when moving into a new apartment. I guess some people are just so
rich that they throw out everything and any time they need something
they just buy a new one. You tend to forget that Oswald was poor.
> and mentioned that Oswald talked with them about renting an apt. But we
> don't have anyone who did any such thing. Oswald just happened to have
> carried the "curtain rods" on the same day his rifle was found at the
> depsoitory building, from where the shots were fired that killed the
> president of the united states. If your scenario were being brought up in
> the courtroom, it would never stand up, John.
>
>
>
>
>>Think about it.
>
>
>
> I have, many times.
>
>
>> And again, I bring up the point:
>> Why would anyone go to all the trouble of wrapping a few "curtain
>>rods" up so securely just to transport them from some place a few miles
>>from where they live?
>
>
>
>
> Why did Ruth Paine wrap them "so securely" just to store them in her own
> garage?
>
>
> Steve writes:
>
> Well, she is alive, John, Why don't you ask her, or, maybe Russ Burr, the
> next time he speaks with her will ask her. Russ?
>
>
John Hill
Not if no landlord/lady was available to show it to him. He might have
looked in a front window to see what the palce looked like, its size, etc
and noticed the front room had no curtains or rods.
> That
> would directly contradict what you said above, "That no one came forward
> is strong evidence Oswald had not yet viewed or rented an apartment." If
> he hasn't yet "viewed" such an apartment, then he doesn't yet "know" of
> such an apartment either.
Not at all. One can see an APARTMENT FOR RENT sign in front of a building
and know there's an apartment for rent there without ever viewing it or
contacting anyone about it.
> > Maybe he was just out to make sure he could fix a place up well enough
to
> > attract Marina back.
>
> But without specific "viewing" of an apartment, he can't yet know that
> they won't be moving into an apartment that isn't *already* fixed up
> nicely, at least with curtains,
Absent anyone to show the apartment, one may look in through a front window
and notice the front room, even though furnished, has no curtains or rods,
or at least not the type one's wife might prefer.
> if not with any other furnishings. And I
> really can't imagine that he'd try to move them into an unfurnished
> apartment on their very limited means, since if he did they'd have to
> acquire furniture for it somehow,
Perhaps it was already minimally furnished, just without curtains or rods.
Maybe it only had venitian blinds and Oswald knew Marina would also want
curtains, at least for the front windows for show.
> & unless someone would have donated or
> loaned such furnishings to them, they'd have to pay for furniture. A
> furnished apartment is much more likely to already have curtains than an
> unfurnished one.
But it's far from guaranteed it will. As I suggested, it may have had blinds
instead of curtains. Maybe Marina (or Oswald himself) preferred curtains
over (either figuratively or litterally) blinds.
> Remember that the apartment he was already living in at this time
It wasn't an apartment. It was ONE room in a rooming house with a shared
bathroom.
> was
> indeed furnished, with a bed & other items, & with curtains. I can't at
> the moment recall whether or not their other places, such as the one on
> Neely with the famous backyard, which you & I both entered, was already
> furnished, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't. I don't recall anything
> about them ever purchasing much in the way of furniture.
Me either.
> Btw, ltns. ;-) How are you & the wife doing? Would love to see y'all
> again sometime. :)
We're doing very well, thank you. James Olmstead is trying to work up a trip
to Dallas sometime soon and is looking for volunteers to help out.
How are things Huntsville way?
--
John Hill (joisa)
Rockett Crawford
Yes, that's why he took off from the TSBD and tried to *escape* rather
than turn himself in...
Rockett Crawford
Rockett Crawford
No, Oswald denied carrying his "curtain rod" bag and quite freely "admitted"
(lied)
that he carried his lunch to work instead and went into detail about his
lunch sitting
in his lap, etc...
Rockett Crawford
jwrush
Then what are you doing with that long heavy sack that you say contains
"curtain rods"?
jwrush
Anthony Marsh
> "Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
> news:RbKMe.133$_D4.37@trndny05...
>
>>jwrush wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
>>>news:hqqMe.2330$yb.1566@trndny01...
>>>>>cops or the media. I think I would have gone to the nearest TV station
>>>>>and told my story to the reporters so they would have it on tape or film
>>>>>in case I got arrested or shot. I wouldn't go around killing cops or
>>>>>throwing my hands up when apprehended and saying "Oh well, I guess this
>>>>>is it!" and then trying to shoot another cop. That was the same as a
>>>>>confession to the original crime.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sure, a confession to the original crime, which was shooting Tippit. That
>>>>may have nothing to do with the JFK assassination.
>>>
>>>
>>>No, the original crime was the shooting of the President. That's what he
>>>was fleeing from with his pistol, and that's why he shot Tippit in the
>>>first place.
>>
>>
>>Oh, I see now. So Ruby walking around with his pistol all the time proves
>>that he was part of the conspiracy to assassinate the President.
>
>
> I don't understand how you arrive at your weird conclusions.
>
>
>
It's not a conclusion. It's called sarcasm, to point out how ridiculous
your assumptions are.
jwrush
He blabbed a lot about having been to Russia. Do you think he was afraid
of going to prison over his curtain rod story or for killing the
President?
jwrush
We've been over that before. First, he didn't think ahead enough to
develop a good escape plan, and second, he had planned to try to pretend
to be completely innocent, so the right wingers would be blamed.
But by the time he got to his rooming house, he was completely spooked.
That's why I think he might have heard about the description of the
shooter, either from someone at the rooming house or from the TV at the
rooming house.
>Just went to a movie.
No, he picked up his pistol, was walking fast, and he shot a cop, then he
ran down the street, hid from police in the shoe store lobby, then he
ducked into the theater without paying. Quite typical of a fleeing suspect
who doesn't have an escape plan.
>Most infamous murderers do that? Just stick
> around waiting to be picked up?
He didn't stick around, he got out of the TSBD fast, and he was walking
fast when he was stopped by the cop, he shot the cop, then he ran away and
ducked into the theater.
> You also need to separate the crimes.
They were separate: Attempt on Walker, then he killed the President, then
Tippit, then his attempt on McDonald's life.
Caeruleo
"jwrush" <jwr...@advantas.net> wrote:
> "Caeruleo" <si...@txucom.net> wrote in message
> news:silmo-BCB8F8....@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
> "1 legible print - does not belong to Oswald". I'll bet there were a
> couple of million curtain rods in garages in Dallas that had prints that
> didn't belong to Oswald's.
I would tend to agree. ;-)
> I've got some in my own garage right now that
> contain prints that don't belong to Oswald.
Not surprising. I have some too, & I very much doubt his prints are on
them either. ;-)
But of course this print business was hardly the point of the posting.
You had said that you wanted to see documentation that the rods arrived at
the DPD on 3-15-63. Now that it has been produced, I find it fascinating
that you don't address at all the very serious issue of that date being 8
days before the rods were supposedly "found," & moreover already wrapped,
in the Paine garage, & the additional discrepancy presented by the two
versions of the document regarding when the rods were returned to Howlett.
Seems there was some hanky-panky going on with these curtain rods, eh?
Caeruleo
wrote:
> "Caeruleo" <si...@txucom.net> wrote in message
> news:silmo-F1A52C....@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> > In article <4303...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, "John Hill" <jo...@ev1.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "Steve" <drumr...@wmconnect.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1124208933.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > > Furthermore, it doesnt make sense for someone to concern themselves
> > > > with "curtain rods" when they don't even have a place to hang them.
> > >
> > > Why not. Maybe Oswald knew of an apartment that needed curtains and
> rods.
> >
> > I submit that if he "knew" of such a place, he would have had to have
> > "viewed" it, since there would not be any other possible way that he would
> > know that such an apartment didn't have curtains, or rods, eh? ;-)
>
> Not if no landlord/lady was available to show it to him. He might have
> looked in a front window to see what the palce looked like, its size, etc
> and noticed the front room had no curtains or rods.
But without speaking to a landlord/lady, how would he know that the
apartment was even available, that it had not just been rented to
someone else? He's going to bring curtain rods for an apartment he's
not even sure yet will be available for him to rent? Again this
scenario does not stand up at all well under close scrutiny.
> > That
> > would directly contradict what you said above, "That no one came forward
> > is strong evidence Oswald had not yet viewed or rented an apartment." If
> > he hasn't yet "viewed" such an apartment, then he doesn't yet "know" of
> > such an apartment either.
>
> Not at all. One can see an APARTMENT FOR RENT sign in front of a building
> and know there's an apartment for rent there without ever viewing it or
> contacting anyone about it.
That still doesn't tell one that the apartment has not just been rented,
or is just about to be rented, to someone else. Even if Oswald did see
such a sign, if he did not act on it that day, how would he possibly
know that if he came back the following day the apartment would not have
already been rented? This scenario requires him to obtain curtain rods
"just in case" he "might" be able to rent this apartment, something he
can't be sure of until he actually talks to the landlord/lady. And I'm
again asking why on earth he'd prefer an unfurnished apartment, which is
the type of apartment most likely not to be already furnished with
curtains or shades as well, when we all know that he could hardly afford
to buy much furniture at this time.
> > > Maybe he was just out to make sure he could fix a place up well enough
> to
> > > attract Marina back.
> >
> > But without specific "viewing" of an apartment, he can't yet know that
> > they won't be moving into an apartment that isn't *already* fixed up
> > nicely, at least with curtains,
>
> Absent anyone to show the apartment, one may look in through a front window
> and notice the front room, even though furnished, has no curtains or rods,
> or at least not the type one's wife might prefer.
Still doesn't guarantee that the apartment will even be available when
he comes back when there *is* someone to show it to him, & still doesn't
tell him whether or not the apartment hasn't *already* been rented that
day, even if there still *is* a for rent sign out front. Remember when
we went to the Neely house? Remember how the for rent sign was still up
out front, even though it had been rented several weeks earlier?
Remember how the renter came up to us & told us he had called the real
estate office about this & they still hadn't taken the sign down?
Plain fact: Oswald simply *cannot* know for certain that *any* apartment
he views is available, no matter what sign is or is not present out
front, until he actually *talks* to the person or people responsible for
renting it.
And there we're right back to square one: no known witnesses claiming
that Oswald ever spoke to them about such an apartment.
He's nevertheless going to obtain curtain rods "just in case" he "might"
need them for an apartment?
I think not.
Oh sure, I suppose it's *possible* he'd still do such a dumb thing,
maybe. It seems far from the most *likely* explanation to me.
A tremendously more likely explanation to me continues to be a scenario
in which, *if* there was no rifle inside the bag he carried into the
TSBD, there were no curtain rods inside it either, & this would far more
plausibly account for him lying in two ways about it, to Frazier that
there were curtain rods, & to Fritz that there was nothing but his
lunch, both of which are mutually exclusive & can never both be true.
> > if not with any other furnishings. And I
> > really can't imagine that he'd try to move them into an unfurnished
> > apartment on their very limited means, since if he did they'd have to
> > acquire furniture for it somehow,
>
> Perhaps it was already minimally furnished, just without curtains or rods.
> Maybe it only had venitian blinds and Oswald knew Marina would also want
> curtains, at least for the front windows for show.
Could be. The scenario still requires him to obtain curtain rods for an
apartment he's not sure he'll even be able to rent.
> > & unless someone would have donated or
> > loaned such furnishings to them, they'd have to pay for furniture. A
> > furnished apartment is much more likely to already have curtains than an
> > unfurnished one.
>
> But it's far from guaranteed it will. As I suggested, it may have had blinds
> instead of curtains. Maybe Marina (or Oswald himself) preferred curtains
> over (either figuratively or litterally) blinds.
Could be. But he doesn't yet know for sure what apartment he'll be able
to get. For all he knows whatever apartment they finally end up in will
already have exactly the style she likes.
> > Remember that the apartment he was already living in at this time
>
> It wasn't an apartment. It was ONE room in a rooming house with a shared
> bathroom.
Whatever, it was still already furnished. And when he lived in true
apartments with Marina & the kids in Dallas, weren't those already
furnished as well? Honest question.
> > Btw, ltns. ;-) How are you & the wife doing? Would love to see y'all
> > again sometime. :)
>
> We're doing very well, thank you.
Good. :)
> James Olmstead is trying to work up a trip
> to Dallas sometime soon and is looking for volunteers to help out.
Good, I would enjoy meeting him.
> How are things Huntsville way?
Well the town & I are still here. And so is that gawdawful statue, lol.
Caeruleo
No, I'm challenging your assertion that there would be no reason for him
not to spill the beans immediately if he knew he was set up. I gave a
plausible reason that someone like that would be reluctant to do that
very thing.
> You can invent all sorts of movie scenarios such as
> "Four Days of the Condor", "The Pelican Brief", "Conspiracy Theory", and
> many others.
And you can evade the argument, but it will not be very compelling. I
will thus now ask you again point blank: yes or no, if you knew that you
had been set up to take the blame for a murder you didn't commit, & you
were additionally told by those who set you up that your wife & children
would be murdered if you breathed a word about it, would you still tell
law enforcement and/or the media all about it?
> But detectives and investigators of real crime cases can not use contrived
> movie scenarios to solve real cases.
Neither do I. I instead proposed a very specific alternate possibility
which you have apparently never considered before.
> Oswald, like many other criminals who have killed someone, was clearly
> fleeing and trying not to be captured for his crime.
I agree, but that was not the point of my reply to you. You claimed
that you'd tell everyone immediately if you were set up, & I asked you
specifically if you would still do so if you knew that your family might
well come to harm if you did. Instead of answering plainly, you evaded
the question by going off on your "Hollywood" tangent.
jwrush
So far today I've learned that all WC supporters were blackmailed into
supporting the WC. Everyone who thinks Oswald was guilty is a paid agent
of the CIA. All anti-Castro Cubans are suspects in the President's murder,
all 2.4 million of them. Oswald used the assassination as an opportunity
to go apartment hunting, with his pistol. Oswald thought his wife would be
murdered if he was captured by police. Oswald was bored on Friday
afternoon and went to see a movie. Oswald had absolutely no interest in
the President's visit. Oswald shot no one at any time. Oswald was a nice
guy. Oswald was a right-wing redneck. Anthony Marsh one time got some
cheap curtain rods for his room in a sleazy rooming house, therefore
Oswald did not shoot the President. Oswald was eating lunch with a group
of friends when they all heard the shots. Assassins practiced firing shots
in Dealey Plaza two days before the Assassination. Police chased them but
they got away. The cops didn't tell anyone. They didn't notify the radio
dispatcher or anyone. The CIA had the radio factory in Minsk under
surveillance. They used their best agent, 20 year old Lee Oswald. Oswald
was taking a poison pen to Cuba for the CIA to use to kill Castro, but he
couldn't get a visa to get into Cuba so he gave that project up and got a
minimum wage job in a book warehouse. The CIA sends its agents to Cuba via
Mexico City on Greyhound buses and they give them cheap war surplus rifles
to kill people with because they have a tight budget.
Hey, somebody should write a book about this!
Peter Makres
Anthony Marsh
Interesting theory. Oswald was at the rooming house for only a couple of
minutes. Tell us the exact time that he was there and quote for us the
description on the TV that he could have heard during those couple of
minutes.
>
>>Just went to a movie.
>
>
> No, he picked up his pistol, was walking fast, and he shot a cop, then he
> ran down the street, hid from police in the shoe store lobby, then he
> ducked into the theater without paying. Quite typical of a fleeing suspect
> who doesn't have an escape plan.
>
Great idea. Then tell us exactly where he was going at the time if he
had no escape plan. Was he going shopping for curtains?
> >Most infamous murderers do that? Just stick
>
>>around waiting to be picked up?
>
>
> He didn't stick around, he got out of the TSBD fast, and he was walking
> fast when he was stopped by the cop, he shot the cop, then he ran away and
> ducked into the theater.
>
He didn't get out of the TSBD fast. He stuck around to see what was
happening, talked to other employees and helped a reporter find the
telephone. Not exactly fleeing quickly.
>
>>You also need to separate the crimes.
>
>
> They were separate: Attempt on Walker, then he killed the President, then
> Tippit, then his attempt on McDonald's life.
>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
Silly concept. If Oswald is in a hurry to escape then why did he go down
into the lunchroom and buy a soda and calmly walk around drinking it?
Rockett Crawford
I agree Johann. I know there are about a thousand JFK conspiracy books
out there, but are there any of them that *officially* decribe themselves as
fictional books?
This would be really good stuff? More imaginative than Alice in wonderland
that's for sure.
Rockett Crawford
Rockett Crawford
> Rockett Crawford wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes, that's why he took off from the TSBD and tried to *escape* rather
> > than turn himself in...
> >
> > Rockett Crawford
>
> Silly concept. If Oswald is in a hurry to escape then why did he go down
> into the lunchroom and buy a soda and calmly walk around drinking it?
>
No one said he was in a hurry. The coke and lunchroom stop was
of course for an alibi. Worked too. Got him past the policeman. He
was smart enough to know that if he went sprinting out the door immediately
that it wouldn't look good.
Rockett Crawford
Russ Burr
Yep. "Libra" by Don Deillo (sic). It's a good read.
Russ