Ah, the old `it can't be 'a' or 'b', so it MUST be 'z'`.
Is this your new game, Ralph? You know, now that everyone's laughed you
out of the arena on the Ozzie in the doorway deal?

>
> Yet, there is no chance that he underwent such training stateside because
> there are people associated with him who have testified that he underwent
> no such training. Plus, it would be part of his military record if he was
> put through such training.
>
> What about in Japan? Could he secretly and without official documentation
> been put through an intensive Russian program as part of espionage? That
> seems the most likely possibility. However, so far, there have been no
> Marines or other personnel who have come forward to report any such thing
> about Oswald studying Russian, learning Russian, speaking Russian. There
> is simply no observer of any of that who has come forward.
>
> Here is a link to a page from another forum which discusses the subject
> quite thoroughly. It's worth reading.
>
> http://jfkhistory.com/forum/index.php?topic=1953.0
>
> I think we have to seriously consider the possibility that a bait and
> switch was pulled off, that the guy we are calling Lee Harvey Oswald was
> someone else.
>

Utoh. Here we go again, Ralph.

> Keep in mind that it has no bearing our work because the Man in the
> Doorway was definitely the Lee Harvey Oswald who was arrested in the Texas
> Theater, held for two days, and then summarily executed by Jack Ruby.

Wow, Ralph. I can't believe you packed so much nonsense into one little
sentence, Ralph.

> Still, it would be nice to know who he was. And it all centers on one
> thing: How did Oswald learn to speak Russian?
>

Oh geez. Are we now gonna have a 'Ozzie was Innocent because *I* don't
know how he learned Russian' consortium, Ralph?

John Fiorentino

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Feb 2, 2013, 11:21:24 PM2/2/13

to

Sandy:

Don't you know anything??

Oswald learned Russian from "Cossack Man" who was also in the doorway in
the Altgens pic.

Geez, I gotta learn you everything!!!

John F.

"Sandy McCroskey" <gwmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:510d8e59$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

John Blubaugh

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Feb 2, 2013, 11:25:04 PM2/2/13

to

On Saturday, February 2, 2013 6:32:25 PM UTC-6, Sandy McCroskey wrote:
> Oswald was married to a Russian.
>
> The very best way to learn any language is to have a Significant Other
>
> whose primary language it is.
>
> Cinque strikes (out) again.
>

He already spoke fluent Russian when he met his wife. He spoke so well,
she thought he was a native Russian....Wrong again McCroskey, as always...

JB

Sandy McCroskey

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Feb 3, 2013, 9:09:25 AM2/3/13

to

It's true, John, that when they first met, Marina did not think Oswald
was an American.

<quote on>
Mr. McDONALD. At this time you were speaking in Russian together?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from
another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do
speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak
different languages.
Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian
state?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.
</quote off>

However, as you can see above, she did not think he was of Russian
ethnicity (a Russian Russian,so to speak), but a citizen of the Soviet
Union whose first language was not Russian.

(Not the only link for this but one that came up quickly:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm)

/sandy

Sandy McCroskey

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Feb 3, 2013, 9:10:10 AM2/3/13

to

On 2/2/13 11:25 PM, John Blubaugh wrote:

I of course think Cinque is wrong in the first place to find it amazing
that Oswald was able to learn Russian as well as he did, even before he
went to Russia. Remarkable, perhaps, but not incredible. Clearly, learning
the language was long part of Oswald's master plan, such as it was. So I
find it entirely plausible that his marriage to a Russian woman was at
least partly impelled by his desire to better learn the language. But
you're right that I shouldn't have made it sound like his attachment to
Marina was the beginning and ending of his self-imposed curriculum.

Ralph Cinque

unread,

Feb 3, 2013, 9:16:24 AM2/3/13

to

Thank you, John. I was about to say that about Marina thinking that Lee
was a native Russian speaker the first time they met. It's amazing that
someone who is supposed to be diligent about this subject could be so
un-informed.

Now watch: is he going to say, "You're right; I stand corrected."??? No,
of course not. He doesn't even care about the issue. But, the issue is
very important.

And there are two issues:

When and how did Oswald learn Russian?

And: Why did official bodies like the Warren Commission and the HSCA not
get to the bottom of it?

Unless you venture into the John Armstrong area- that a native Russian
speaker from Eastern Europe replaced the real Lee Oswald- which I am not
willing to do at this time, and not because I am averse to it in principle
but because it creates a whole set of other problems, such as: how did
this Oswald replacement fool brother Robert and mother Marguerite?- we're
left with having to figure out how Oswald learned Russian.

And one thing is for sure: the only way he could have learned it was from
the US military. He didn't learn it by himself, and he didn't learn it
from any private school or teacher. So, if he learned it from the US
Military, why aren't there any records of it? And, why has there been a
deliberate obfuscation about it, and not just by the government
investigating commissions, but by the Marines, by the CIA, by the FBI, and
by the US Media?

This stonewalling about Oswald's Russian ability is as incriminating as
any other post-assassination lie and coverup you can name- and you can
name a lot.

Bud

unread,

Feb 3, 2013, 9:18:26 AM2/3/13

to

No, actually you are wrong again. She thought he spoke it like
someone from one of the Russian provinces, not a native.

> JB

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 3, 2013, 5:55:14 PM2/3/13

to

Yes, I know. Like maybe someone from Lithuania. But someone from Lithuania
is not necessarily less fluent in Russian than someone from Russia. The
word "native" refers to someone who spoke Russian as their "native
language". That's the point.

Walt

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Feb 3, 2013, 5:59:26 PM2/3/13

to

On Feb 2, 2:39 pm, Ralph Cinque <budab...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ralph asked:......How did Oswald learn Russian?

Are you kidding...... He was in the Marines..... They are always
rushin...... apparently you've never been in the service.cuz if you
were you'd know that first you rush here and then you rush there and
then you wait.

timstter

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Feb 3, 2013, 6:01:31 PM2/3/13

unread,

Feb 3, 2013, 9:04:12 PM2/3/13

to

Yes, the JFK propaganda reaches all the way into Wikipedia. About Oswald
teaching himself rudimentary Russian, I think not. I know about the
rudimentary Russian. I've got the book, "Charles Berlitz: Passport to
Russian". It's designed to impart conversational phrases to a traveler, so
that you can take a cab, order a meal, etc. while travelling in Russia.
It's all phrases and short sentences, and they have them written out
phonetically in English. I studied it before travelling to Ukraine, and it
was helpful. But, you're not learning Russian- you're faking Russian. But,
Oswald wasn't faking it. Oswald had much more than a rudimentary knowledge
of Russian. He was fluent in Russian. His wife, upon first meeting him,
thought he was a native Russian speaker. There is NO WAY he taught himself
that.

Then on Wikipedia it says:

"Although this was an unusual endeavor, in February 1959 he was invited to
take a Marine proficiency exam in written and spoken Russian. His level at
the time was rated 'poor'."

Look what they are implying here. They are implying that he acquired this
new language entirely on his own, but somebody in the Marines took notice,
so they decided to give him a proficiency exam. Why? With what intention?

The source they provide for this is the book "Not In Your Lifetime" by
Anthony Summers, published 1998, which I understand is a pro-conspiracy
book, although I have never read it.

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Your-Lifetime-Anthony-Summers/dp/1569247390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359936012&sr=8-1&keywords=Not+In+Your+Lifetime

The book is out of print and sells for $836 new.

That is all Wikipedia has to say about Oswald's amazing Russian-speaking
ability.

But on Spartacus International, which is run by the same man who runs the
Education Forum, John Simkin, who is the Canadian version of John McAdams,
it says not one word on Oswald's bio about his amazing Russian-speaking
ability. I guess Simkin didn't think it was important. But what it does
say is:

"In 1956, Oswald began reading books by Karl Marx and telling friends he
was a Marxist. He also joined the Young People's Socialist Leauge."

Really? Are you sure? Because it's a pretty unusual preoccupation for a 16
year old American. I looked into the Young People's Socialist League, and
it dissolved completely in 1972. In 1952, it had a national membership of
134.

But then, it glibly goes on to say:

"The following year, at the age of 17, Oswald joined the US Marines."

But wait a second: What about the inherent contradiction between the
Marxist, Socialist stuff and the Marines? And when you join the Marines,
don't they look into your background? Didn't they find out about all his
socialist stuff and his membership in the Young People's Socialist League?
That was not a problem?

Apparently not. It said that in the Marines, "Oswald's primary training
was as a radar operator, a position requiring a security clearance."

So, are they telling us that during the Cold War, they gave security
clearances to avowed Socialists? Is that how it worked?

So, Oswald joined the Marines in 1956, and it was just the next year, in
1957, that he was shipped off to Atsugi Air Base in Japan. And since he
underwent intensive radar training during that first year in the Marines
stateside, I can't imagine he also picked up Russian on the side.

According to Wikipedia: "A May 1957 document states that he was 'granted
final clearance to handle classified matter up to and including
CONFIDENTIAL after careful check of local records had disclosed no
derogatory data.'"

No derogatory data? Did they miss the part about the Young People's
Socialist League?

Then, concerning his tour of duty in Japan, both Wikipedia and Spartcus
harped on all the trouble he got into for fights and weapons violations,
etc., which resulted in time in the brig. Didn't that interfere with his
Russian classes?

But towards the end of 1958, Oswald was sent back to El Toro Air Base
which was near Irvine CA, and, there are reports of him speaking, reading,
and writing Russian then and there. But none of his Marine buddies from
Japan, who were in close daily contact with him, knew anything about
Oswald studying Russian or being the least bit interested in Russian in
Japan. Here are two names of such men: Zack Stout and George Wilkens. The
Warren Commission refused to hear from either one of them.

Simkin over on Sparatacus quoted a remark from somebody about Oswald being
a "mixed-up young man of low intellectual capacity..." Hey John! What
about the part about Oswald learning Russian?"

This boat don't float. I'm not buying it, are you? The more I learn about
this, the more inclined I am to think that something very sinister
happened, where the truth about Lee Harvey Oswald and his life and his
identity are very different from what they're telling us.

Jason Burke

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Feb 3, 2013, 11:24:24 PM2/3/13

to

Ralph, that's all very pretty and nice. But face it, your only hope is
STILL the decades ago discredited `It might just be Ozzie in the doorway`.

Anthony Marsh

unread,

Ralph Cinque

unread,

Feb 4, 2013, 6:08:38 PM2/4/13

to

Deke, that is fascinating. I started a new post which hasn't been put up
yet concerning Oswald's stumbling over the word "ask" while talking to
reporters at the Dallas PD. He seems to pronounce "ask" like "axe"- unless
it's just a glitch in the tape. Here it is. It occurs at 2 minutes and 50
seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDDuRSgzFk

What do you think? Did he really say "axe"? If so, then we need to start
showing a lot more respect to John Armstrong and his theory about Lee and
East European Harvey.

Anthony Marsh

unread,

Feb 4, 2013, 6:09:45 PM2/4/13

to

All of that is documented in the WC volumes. But you refuse to read them.

> You can't do it, McAdams. You can't just say that- out of the blue- that
> Oswald sat for a proficiency test in the Russian language without
> providing details on how such a thing was even remotely possible. Because
> when you glibly say such a thing, it makes you look like you think we are
> idiots. You see, we know how hard it is to learn Russian. According to our
> own CIA, with intense, full immersion study, an English-speaking person
> can achieve basic fluency in Spanish or Italian in 6 months. Do you know
> how long our CIA says it takes for Russian? 18 months.
>

No one said he was fluent. In fact he scored poorly.

> Now, I don't think he was doing it while he was studying radar in Florida
> and Mississippi because he was busy, er, studying radar. And from what
> your friend Parnell tells us, he spent most of his time in Japan getting
> into trouble, being court-martialed, spending time in the brig, having a
> nervouse breakdown, and presumably, fulfilling some duties for which he
> was sent there which had nothing to do with Russian. So, it creates a real
> quandry as to how, where, and when the time existed for him to learn
> Russian.
>

Make sure you don't read the reports of his fellow Marines. Don't get
contaminated by the truth.

> And considering that Parnell gave us details about such things as
> Marguerite's first marriage to a guy named Pic, who was not Lee's father
> and was around and then gone long before Lee was born, don't you think he
> could have shed a little light on how Oswald managed to become fluent in
> Russian?
>

Why does he have to know?

unread,

Feb 4, 2013, 8:26:29 PM2/4/13

to

Ralph Cinque wrote:
> I have travelled in Ukraine and said Z'drast-vwee-t'yeah to people, and
> the woman I was with informed me that I never once said it right. Then
> again, I don't claim to be gifted when it comes to languages.
>
> And there is a point that you are missing here, McCroskey: Oswald PASSED
> that proficiency test. His aptitude was rated "poor" but it was still
> considered a passing grade.

So to pass that test, one needed only rudimentary knowledge of Russian.
"Poor" is "poor."

> And for Mcadams vis Parnell to have glibly
> reported that without the slightest enlightenment as to how, when, and
> where Oswald did it is a travesty. It's rotten to the core. So, quit
> making excuses for it.
>

It's just no mystery. People can apply themselves and learn things. If
they have learning disabilities, they sometimes work harder at it.

Jason Burke

unread,

Feb 4, 2013, 9:04:39 PM2/4/13

to

On 2/4/2013 5:04 PM, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Zack Stout and George Wilkens both stated, repeatedly, that Oswald had
> nothing to do with Russian in Japan. Yet, as soon as he got back to El
> Toro, he could suddenly speak, read, and write Russian.
>
> Look, you have got to understand something here: the burden of
> responsibility is on those who claim he really was Lee Harvey Oswald to
> explain how he learned Russian.

Wait just a tick here, Ralph. YOU are the one who has made a big deal
about this 'LHO speaking Russian' here.

Where is the 'burden of responsibility' of anyone else?

Jason Burke

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Feb 4, 2013, 9:05:30 PM2/4/13

to

Did you finally give up on the "IT'S OSWALD IN THE DOORWAY" nonsense,
Ralph?

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 4, 2013, 11:03:24 PM2/4/13

to

Of course, it was Oswald in the doorway. That's rock-solid. Are you
insane? The guy that Jack Ruby killed is the same guy that Ike Altgens
photographed. Except it was Harvey, not Lee. John Armstrong had it right.
Lee Oswald, who was in Russia, never taught himself Russian. You're
demented if you think that. No, McCroskey: people CANNOT apply themselves
and self-learn Russian. This is by John Armstrong:

"In June 1962 Harvey Oswald left Russia, and moved to Fort Worth where he
impressed the Dallas Russian community with his command of the Russian
language. George DeMohrenschildt said Harvey preferred speaking Russian to
English. He discussed classical Russian literature with Harvey-in the
Russian language. Speaking elementary Russian is one thing. Speaking and
reading Russian well enough to discuss "classical Russian literature" with
a well educated native speaking Russian is another. The Warren Commission
wants us to believe this high school dropout taught himself Russian by
reading Russian newspapers--at age 19. In reality Harvey Oswald had been
speaking Russian for a long time-- since childhood."

"Oswald's Russian speaking ability allowed him to observe and report on
conditions in the Soviet Union. His 50 page manuscript (Volume 16, pp.
287-336) is replete with minute detail, facts and data--not the type of
information recorded by a tourist or temporary resident of Russia."

"When Lee Oswald's older half-brother, John Pic, saw "Harvey" Oswald after
his return from Russia, Pic told the Warren Commission "the Lee Harvey
Oswald I met in November, 1962 was not the same Lee Oswald I had known 10
years previous". When Attorney Jenner asked Pic how he looked physically
"as compared with when you had last seen him," Pic replied "I would never
have recognized him, sir". You noticed a material change in his
appearance? Pic replied, "much thinner,didn't have as much hair, different
facial features, eyes set back, his face was rounder, and he no longer had
a bull neck". The Oswald that Pic saw on Thanksgiving day in 1962 wrote
his name in Pic's address book as "Harvey".

It was Oswald in the doorway: Harvey Oswald.

unread,

Feb 5, 2013, 12:08:44 AM2/5/13

to

On 2/4/2013 8:04 PM, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Zack Stout and George Wilkens both stated, repeatedly, that Oswald had
> nothing to do with Russian in Japan. Yet, as soon as he got back to El
> Toro, he could suddenly speak, read, and write Russian.
>

No. He could barely speak, read, and write English.

> Look, you have got to understand something here: the burden of
> responsibility is on those who claim he really was Lee Harvey Oswald to
> explain how he learned Russian. You don't get to shrug your shoulders and
> just say, "Isn't that cool that he taught himself Russian." He didn't
> teach himself Russian. He couldn't teach himself Russian. Nobody could.
> And even theoretically, where could he possibly have gotten the materials?
> Did he send off for them? Why don't they have records of that? They don't
> have records of anything. He just suddenly started being able to speak
> Russian. That's the official story, and it is not believable.
>

YOU made the claim. The burden of proof is on YOU.

deke

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Feb 5, 2013, 11:21:32 AM2/5/13

to

Or that a look-alike with an eastern European background was sharing his identity all along. This theory has been explored in great detail by John Armstrong in "Harvey and Lee". I think it's much more plausible than the Russian imposter scenario.

deke

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Feb 5, 2013, 11:21:46 AM2/5/13

to

On Monday, February 4, 2013 6:08:38 PM UTC-5, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Deke, that is fascinating. I started a new post which hasn't been put up
>
> yet concerning Oswald's stumbling over the word "ask" while talking to
>
> reporters at the Dallas PD. He seems to pronounce "ask" like "axe"- unless
>
> it's just a glitch in the tape. Here it is. It occurs at 2 minutes and 50 >
> seconds.
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDDuRSgzFk
>

I could be wrong, but it does sound like "axe" to me. What I think is more important is that when you listen to him on that video, he doesn't sound at all like someone raised in the South, either in Texas or New Orleans. I've spent time in both places and I'm very familiar with the accents. I'll listen to those radio interviews again soon. I last heard them a couple of years ago and I'm almost sure there is more than one instance of a missed article.

Jean Davison

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Feb 5, 2013, 2:26:35 PM2/5/13

to jjdavi...@yahoo.com

Norman Mailer interviewed people who knew Oswald in Russia. They
said he didn't know the language when he arrived. A man named Shushkevich
was assigned the task of helping him learn Russian, and others Oswald knew
or worked with also helped him. You can search Mailer's book for
"Shushkevich" here:

http://www.amazon.com/reader/0345404378?_encoding=UTF8&query=%26%2334%3Brussian%20language%26%2334%3B#_

Oswald lived and worked in Minsk for almost 2 1/2 years --
the very best way to learn a foreign language.

"Axe" is a common pronunciation of "ask" by New Orleans
natives. You can find that online.

Jean

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 5, 2013, 2:27:59 PM2/5/13

to

I agree that he doesn't sound like a Texan, and I've lived in Texas for 35
years. I know what Texans sound like. And he certainly doesn't sound like
a Louisianian because that accent is even stronger than a Texan accent.

Another weird thing that struck me is that repeatedly he said "New
Orleans". By that, I mean he kept saying it literally: "New Or Leans".
That's not how the natives of New Orleans say it. They say "New
Awe'Lynns". But again, there was nothing about his accent that sounded the
last bit Southern.

Here's the tape again. Go to the 15 minute 20 second point. He says the
word "Friday". Listen to how he says it. It sounds very foreign.

http://www.oswald-on-the-radio.blogspot.com/

Anthony Marsh

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Feb 5, 2013, 4:15:07 PM2/5/13

to

Why is it incredible??
If you're going to send an agent into Russia, isn't it a good idea to
teach him Russian??

unread,

Feb 5, 2013, 6:29:01 PM2/5/13

to jjdavi...@yahoo.com

Jean, Oswald was well grounded in Russian BEFORE he went to Russia. We
have witnesses for that: Nick Delgado and Rosslyn Quinn to name two. And
after arriving at El Toro in December 1958, Oswald requested to take a
Russian proficiency exam. Why would he do that unless he knew he acquired
substantial ability? You wouldn't do that just from knowing how to say
Spaceeba and Dasveedahnya. And he passed the proficiency test in February
1959. He got a grade of Poor, but it was still considered passing. Again,
that was February 1959 at a time in which, as far we know, he never had
any instructor, and he never had any audio assistance, referring to the
CDs and DVDs and online resources that are available today. It is
untenable that he was able to make a dent in it at all by himself. And
remember, he was a 9th grade dropout, and in Japan he supposedly spent his
time getting into trouble, shooting himself accidentally and landing in
the hospital, getting into fights, being court-martialed twice, landing in
the brig in the Phillipines, and having a nervous breakdown in Taiwan. All
of that happened in the 14 months he was over there. His close Marine
buddies Zack Stout and George Wilkins deny that he had anything to do with
learning Russian during that time.

Look: learning a foreign language is primarily an audio/lingual process.
Russian involves lingual process that are totally foreign to English. He
could not possibly have learned it by himself. Remember: there were no
CDs, no DVDs, and no Internet. Even tape recorders were nascent, and there
is no evidence Oswald had one. The audio technology of the time was
records, and there is no evidence that Oswald ever obtained a record of
Russian language instruction- if they were even available.

And, Oswald did not speak like a New Orleaner. He didn't even say "New
Orleans" like a New Orleaner. He said "New Or Leans" instead of "New
Awe'Lynns". It's a strong accent they have down there, and he didn't have
it.

Walt

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Feb 5, 2013, 9:13:37 PM2/5/13

to

As I recall Lee went with his mother to live in New York when he was
13 years old. The kids in NY made fun of him because he talked like
hill billy. He worked on dropping the slight Texas drawl that he had.
I also remember reading that when he went back to Ft Worth some of
the teen age girls in school liked talkin to him because he talked
like Yankee.

Bud

to jjdavi...@yahoo.com

Jean, you are whistling in the dark here. When Marina met Oswald, she thought he was a native speaker of Russian. George M. raved about Oswald's talent in Russian, saying that he they discussed Russian literature in detail in Russian.

And you have no grounds to dispute the merit if Nick Delgado's testimony. He reported that Oswald was ordering and reading Russian newspapers at El Toro. And Nick was the mailman. He delivered those Russian newspapers to Oswald, and we have every right to presume that Oswald read them. He didn't order them to look at the pictures, did he?

IF YOU CAN READ A NEWSPAPER IN A CERTAIN LANGUAGE, YOU ARE FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE. It's as good a litmus test as any.

I'll take it further: If Oswald was able to labor through a Russian newspaper and garner even one-fourth of the information therein, he was a linguistic genius considering his complete utter lack of instruction in it- according to the official story.

And, you have to appraise Delgado's testimony not only in terms of what he said but of what he didn't say. He didn't say that Osawld was taking a mail-order course in Russian. He didn't say that Oswald was taking a class in Russian or had a private tutor in Russian. He didn't even say anything about seeing Oswald with a textbook to learn Russian. He just said that Oswald was receiving Russian newspapers.

Well, if you are getting a newspaper in a certain language, that means that you ALREADY have a good grasp of the language. At least, you definitely have SOME grasp of the language already, a working grasp, enough to be able to understand what you're reading. Again, you have no right to assume he got those newspapers to just look at the pictures. This is evidence, and this is applying rational thought to the evidence.

Would I order a subscription to a newspaper that was written in a language that I was unable to read and comprehend? No, I would not. Therefore, I shall assume Oswald wouldn't either.

Then there was this statement of Delgado's: "He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand." Here, he seems to be admitting that he's not a good judge, but I know of no reason why we should not take that at face value.

Nick added: "He tried to teach me some Russian." That certains suggests established proficiency. Would you try to teach someone Russian?

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before he spoke Russian.
Mr. DELGADO. Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that time or highly proficient?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it also.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian

I would say that that is very substantial testimony from Mr. Delgado that Oswald knew Russian to a substantial, significant, meaningful degree of proficiency.
And regarding the Russian proficiency test- just the fact that Oswald was desirous and willing to take it, and just the fact that he was considered qualfied and eligible to take it speaks highly of his ability. I mean, how far do you have to get before the mere thought of such a thing surfaces? And that he got a result of "poor" does not diminish him at all. I just read a report today that said that Russian grammar is so difficult that millions of native Russians go their whole lives without ever learning it. They speak the language just not bothering with the complex grammatical rules. I suppose they would be rated "poor" too. But, are you going to say they aren't fluent?
The fact is that Oswald completed the test, and no one said afterwards that he was inept or unqualfied to have taken it.
Then there was this in the Warren Report:
"Most of the marines who knew him were aware that he was studying Russian;. One of them, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., arranged a date between Lee and his aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who was also studying Russian. Miss Quinn thought that Oswald spoke Russian well in view of his lack of formal training."

Ms. Quinn was studying Russian formally at the Berlitz School, and she was impressed with Oswald's ability with the language. This implies substantial ability.

It adds up to a lot of evidence, solid evidence. Not like your boy on the bumper. What we have is a picture of a young man who had to be one of the most amazing linguists in the history of language. Either that, or he was a different person who learned Russian as a boy. I'm sure that's the one Occam would go with. He'd take his razor to the official theory that Oswald was a Boy Wonder.
Edit your post: To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?) You know, Sienfake, you issue a lot of speculative opinions, like the boy on the bumper. You posted a picture of car that was nowhere near where the boy was standing. And he was standing straight up, and there is no way his mother could hold him straight up. For that matter, there is no way he could be standing straight up on a bumper either. So, your whole story is bull sh_t.
We have Oswald arriving at El Toro in California in December 1958 with an already good grasp of the Russian language- a grasp that is unexplained by any of his prior activity. We have the testimony of Nick Delgado.

Nick Delgado: He always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist; it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that periodical. It was a newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Now, you have to appraise this not only in terms of what he said but of what he didn't say. He didn't say that Osawld was taking a mail-order course in Russian. (And Nick distributed the mail.) He didn't say that Oswald was taking a class in Russian or had a private tutor in Russian. He didn't even say anything about seeing Oswald with a textbook to learn Russian. He just said that Oswald was receiving Russian newspapers.
Well, if you are getting a newspaper in a certain language, that means that you ALREADY have a good grasp of the language. At least, you definitely have SOME grasp of the language already, a working grasp, enough to be able to understand what you're reading. You don't think he got the newspaper to just look at the pictures, do you? This is evidence, Sienfake, and we are supposed to apply rational thought to the evidence, as I am doing.
Would I order a subscription to a newspaper that was written in a language that I was unable to read and comprehend ? No, I would not. Therefore, I shall assume that Oswald wouldn't either."

Then there was this statement of Delgado's: "He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand." I know of no reason why we should not take that at face value.

Nick added: "He tried to teach me some Russian." That certains suggests established proficiency.

Then there is this:

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before he spoke Russian.
Mr. DELGADO. Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that time or highly proficient?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it also.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian

I would say that that is very substantial testimony from Mr. Delgado that Oswald knew Russian to a substantial, significant, meaningful degree of proficiency.
And regarding the Russian proficiency test- just the fact that Oswald was desirous and willing to take it, and just the fact that he was considered qualfied and eligible to take it speaks highly of his ability. I mean, how far do you have to get before the mere thought of such a thing surfaces? And that he got a result of "poor" does not diminish him at all. I just read a report today that said that Russian grammar is so difficult that millions of native Russians go their whole lives without ever learning it. They speak the language just not bothering with the complex grammatical rules. I suppose they would be rated "poor" too. But, are you going to say they aren't fluent?
The fact is that Oswald completed the test, and no one said afterwards that he was inept or unqualfied to have taken it.
Then there was this in the Warren Report:
"Most of the marines who knew him were aware that he was studying Russian;. One of them, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., arranged a date between Lee and his aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who was also studying Russian. Miss Quinn thought that Oswald spoke Russian well in view of his lack of formal training."

Ms. Quinn was studying Russian formally at the Berlitz School, and she was impressed with Oswald's ability with the language. This implies substantial ability.

What gives you the intellectual right to diminish this? You don't attempt to diminish all the witnesses that way. Only the ones you don't like.

It adds up to a lot of evidence, solid evidence. What we have is a picture of a young man who had to either be one of the most amazing linguists in the history of language 0R, as John Armstrong says, he was a different person who learned Russian as a boy. And I'm sure that's the one Occam would go with. He'd take his razor to the official theory that Oswald was a Boy Wonder who was reading Russian newspapers without help from a soul.

Walt

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Feb 6, 2013, 1:31:35 PM2/6/13

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On Feb 4, 9:04 am, Ralph Cinque <budab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's something fascinating. It's also rather funny- if you like sick
> humor. Professor John McAdams has got a timeline of the life of Lee Harvey
> Oswald, compiled by W. Tracy Parnell, on his website. It starts with
> Oswald's matenal grandparents in the 19th century and goes until he was
> pronounced dead at Parkland Hospital.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/parnell/chrono.htm
>
> In covering his Marine years, it starts with his enlistment in October
> 1956. After boot camp in California, he is sent to Florida in March 1957
> for Naval Air Technical Training, where he earns a Confidential security
> clearance. Then he goes on to Biloxi MS in May 1957 for certificadtion in
> Aircraft Control and Warning Operator technology. Then he was sent to the
> Marine base in El Toro CA for just 6 weeks before being shipped out to
> Japan. He departs for Japan in August 1957, and he is there until November
> 1958, so 14 months.
>
> But, it was a wild ride, with one debacle after the next, where he shoots
> himself accidentally; gets court-marshalled twice; spends 6 weeks in the
> brig; was sent to the Phillipines and got in trouble there; was sent to
> Taiwan where he has a nervous breakdown. So, he gets back to California in
> November 1958 and takes a much-needed month off. Then, he's sent back to
> El Toro near Irvine in December 1958. Then two months later, in February
> 1959, he sits for a proficiency test in Russian and scores "poor".
>
> WHAT????? McAdams, are you out of your freaking mind? How dare you put
> such a disgusting thing on your page? How dare you insult the intelligence
> of every thinking person who might read it when you glibly say, and
> without the slightest preliminaries, that Oswald undertook a proficiency
> test in Russian? Just like that? From out of the blue? And you call
> yourself a Professor? Of what?
>
> You can't do it, McAdams. You can't just say that- out of the blue- that
> Oswald sat for a proficiency test in the Russian language without
> providing details on how such a thing was even remotely possible. Because
> when you glibly say such a thing, it makes you look like you think we are
> idiots. You see, we know how hard it is to learn Russian. According to our
> own CIA, with intense, full immersion study, an English-speaking person
> can achieve basic fluency in Spanish or Italian in 6 months. Do you know
> how long our CIA says it takes for Russian? 18 months.
>
> Now, I don't think he was doing it while he was studying radar in Florida
> and Mississippi because he was busy, er, studying radar. And from what
> your friend Parnell tells us, he spent most of his time in Japan getting
> into trouble, being court-martialed, spending time in the brig, having a
> nervouse breakdown, and presumably, fulfilling some duties for which he
> was sent there which had nothing to do with Russian. So, it creates a real
> quandry as to how, where, and when the time existed for him to learn
> Russian.
>
> And considering that Parnell gave us details about such things as
> Marguerite's first marriage to a guy named Pic, who was not Lee's father
> and was around and then gone long before Lee was born, don't you think he
> could have shed a little light on how Oswald managed to become fluent in
> Russian?
>
> Do you think it's easy to learn Russian?
>
> Î÷åíü ëåãêî - ÿ æå òîæå çíàþ!
>
> The above sentence in Russian means: It's easy- I know it too.
>
> Here is an interesting take on the Russian language:
>
> "For hundreds of years, Russia was a closed society. In my opinion, her
> language played a large part in keeping outsiders out, and insiders in."
>
> "The mere fact that Russian words have an average of 32.5 syllables per
> word is daunting enough. Add to it, the Cyrillic alphabet, and it's no
> piece of cake."
>
> "Let's give some examples of the friendliness factor in world languages,
> for instance, how to say hello. In French, we say, "Bonjour"-two
> syllables. In Italian, we say, "Buon giorno"-three syllables In Russian,
> we say "Zdrast'vweetyeh"-45 syllables. Do you see a pattern emerging?"
>
> "The Russian language could be likened to a secret society meeting up with
> a people given to science and engineering. The complex case endings and
> perplexing pronunciations could only result from such a sinister
> scenario."
>
> "In all world languages, we know about basic verb conjugations: I go, you
> go, he goes, she goes-but how would you like to conjugate nouns?"
>
> "Da, Russian conjugates nouns, so if I am walking the dog, looking at the
> dog, or if I am with the dog, the ending of the word "dog" (sabaka) would
> change in each case."
>
> "Are the muddy waters becoming clearer now?"
>
> "To gain true mastery of the Russian language would equal an attempt to
> take over the world. Language domination and world domination go
> hand-in-hand. As a case in point, have you heard of the number of nations
> teaching English as opposed to any of a handful reaching out for
> rudimentary Russian? Even the former Soviet satellite states such as
> Georgia are bringing in English teachers by the boatloads to supplant
> Russian as their state-sponsored secondary language."
>
> "In so many ways, language defines us: the happy and musical sounds of
> Spanish, the serious and abrupt staccatos of German, the Gaelic lilt, the
> Chairman's chopped Chinese. Russian could be termed to be complex and
> incomprehensible, and it's all by design, I say."
>
> Hey McAdams! Tell your pal Parnell that is timeline is a freaking joke and
> a disgrace, and it makes a laughing stock out of all of you lone-nutters.
> You're not researchers; you're just propagandists. A Professor of State
> Propaganda- that's you, buddy.

Hi Ralph...... I really enjoyed this post. You've hit the nail
squarely on the head.

Just as you've linked language to culture and customs, I believe a
nations music reveals he dominating culture.

50 years ago ( before the Kennedy assassination) we were a naive and
somewhat carefree nation as can be seen in the happy songs of that
era. LISTEN to the music of America today...... I gotta tell ya
Ralph it scares the hell outta me.

The murder of JFK was a watershed event in modern America. It
changed the nation.....LBJ showed young men that if you were bold
enough and unscrupulous enough you could rise to the pinnacle of
power. Other young men who aren't so well qualified to rise to that
lofty peak become resentful.....LISTEN to the music.

Walt

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Feb 6, 2013, 6:07:28 PM2/6/13

to

Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Jean, you are whistling in the dark here. When Marina met Oswald, she thought he was a native speaker of Russian.

Wrong. She thought it might be his second language. She suspected he was
from the Balkans, meaning that his first language would have been entirely
different from Russian.

> George M. raved about Oswald's talent in Russian, saying that he they discussed Russian literature in detail in Russian.
>
> And you have no grounds to dispute the merit if Nick Delgado's testimony. He reported that Oswald was ordering and reading Russian newspapers at El Toro. And Nick was the mailman. He delivered those Russian newspapers to Oswald, and we have every right to presume that Oswald read them. He didn't order them to look at the pictures, did he?
>
> IF YOU CAN READ A NEWSPAPER IN A CERTAIN LANGUAGE, YOU ARE FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE. It's as good a litmus test as any.

Wrong. "Fluent" means you can express yourself readily in another
language. Being able to read that language, even very well, wouldn't
automatically convey that ability. Even understanding someone when they
speak the language can be difficult if you're familiar with it only
through print.

After a trip to Amsterdam many years ago I found I could read the Dutch
publications I'd brought back and entirely understand them, with the help
of a little dictionary. (Dutch is, after all, very close to English.) But
I'd never have dreamed of calling myself "fluent" in Dutch on that basis.
That would be laughable.

Jason Burke

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Feb 6, 2013, 6:08:20 PM2/6/13

to

Excellent! So you've given up on the Oswald-in-the-Doorway nonsense.
That's a start.

Bud

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Feb 6, 2013, 8:44:45 PM2/6/13

to

On Feb 6, 1:25 pm, Ralph Cinque <budab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jean, you are whistling in the dark here. When Marina met Oswald, she thought he was a native speaker of Russian.

<snicker> These guys are unteachable and unreachable. No matter how
many times it is pointed out that Marina thought he spoke Russian like
an alien he will continue to say Marina said he spoke it like a
native.

>George M. raved about Oswald's talent in Russian, saying that he they discussed Russian literature in detail in Russian.

This is after he had lived in Russia for two and a half years,
right? Didn`t Jean show where people in Russia helped Oswald with his
Russian?

> And you have no grounds to dispute the merit if Nick Delgado's testimony. He reported that Oswald was ordering and reading Russian newspapers at El Toro. And Nick was the mailman. He delivered those Russian newspapers to Oswald, and we have every right to presume that Oswald read them. He didn't order them to look at the pictures, did he?
>
> IF YOU CAN READ A NEWSPAPER IN A CERTAIN LANGUAGE, YOU ARE FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE.

Does this mean if I want to know how to speak a language I only
have to have a newspaper in that language delivered to my house?
Unless there is some flaw in Ralph`s thinking, but that doesn`t seem
likely seeing he wrote in all capitals.

>It's as good a litmus test as any.

Perhaps he got the paper and used the Russian/English dictionary
that people said he used to decipher it.

> I'll take it further: If Oswald was able to labor through a Russian newspaper and garner even one-fourth of the information therein, he was a linguistic genius considering his complete utter lack of instruction in it- according to the official story.

Perhaps such a person would score poorly on tests administered to
him to determine the level of Russian he knew.

> And, you have to appraise Delgado's testimony not only in terms of what he said but of what he didn't say. He didn't say that Osawld was taking a mail-order course in Russian. He didn't say that Oswald was taking a class in Russian or had a private tutor in Russian. He didn't even say anything about seeing Oswald with a textbook to learn Russian. He just said that Oswald was receiving Russian newspapers.
>
> Well, if you are getting a newspaper in a certain language, that means that you ALREADY have a good grasp of the language. At least, you definitely have SOME grasp of the language already, a working grasp, enough to be able to understand what you're reading. Again, you have no right to assume he got those newspapers to just look at the pictures. This is evidence, and this is applying rational thought to the evidence.

This is just saying stuff. This is not showing anything beyond
Oswald having Russian magazines delivered to him. The only one
impressed with you claiming "this must mean this" is yourself.

> Would I order a subscription to a newspaper that was written in a language that I was unable to read and comprehend? No, I would not. Therefore, I shall assume Oswald wouldn't either.

You see no value in subscribing to a magazine in a language you are
trying to master? What would really be inexplicable is if he learned
Russian without any known contact with the language.

> Then there was this statement of Delgado's: "He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand." Here, he seems to be admitting that he's not a good judge, but I know of no reason why we should not take that at face value.

Go ahead, take it at the face value of a person who didn`t know the
language thinking Oswald knew the language. Face value doesn`t help
you to determine what this information is worth.

> Nick added: "He tried to teach me some Russian." That certains suggests established proficiency. Would you try to teach someone Russian?
>
> Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before he spoke Russian.
> Mr. DELGADO. Russian.
> Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that time or highly proficient?
> Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it also.

Who was that football player who always acted like he was reading
the newspaper in the locker room, even though he didn`t know how to
read?

> Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?
> Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian
>
> I would say that that is very substantial testimony from Mr. Delgado that Oswald knew Russian to a substantial, significant, meaningful degree of proficiency.

Actually it is absolutely useless to determine Oswald`s proficiency
in Russian. Nothing can be determined, not one damn thing.

> And regarding the Russian proficiency test- just the fact that Oswald was desirous and willing to take it, and just the fact that he was considered qualfied and eligible to take it speaks highly of his ability.

You make the worst arguments imaginable. His score is what speaks to
his ability, nothing else. He might have taken it to gauge his
progress.

> I mean, how far do you have to get before the mere thought of such a thing surfaces? And that he got a result of "poor" does not diminish him at all.

You probably think it enhances it.

> I just read a report today that said that Russian grammar is so difficult that millions of native Russians go their whole lives without ever learning it.

How would they determine such a thing? Testing, maybe?

> They speak the language just not bothering with the complex grammatical rules. I suppose they would be rated "poor" too. But, are you going to say they aren't fluent?

They might speak their native tongues rather than Russia. But you
haven`t yet figured out that they speak different languages in
different regions of Russia.

> The fact is that Oswald completed the test, and no one said afterwards that he was inept or unqualfied to have taken it.

Someone said that Oswald passed the test. That person could not back
that assertion up.

> Then there was this in the Warren Report:
> "Most of the marines who knew him were aware that he was studying Russian;

Under who? Or did they say he was teaching himself?

>. One of them, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., arranged a date between Lee and his aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who was also studying Russian. Miss Quinn thought that Oswald spoke Russian well in view of his lack of formal training."
>
> Ms. Quinn was studying Russian formally at the Berlitz School, and she was impressed with Oswald's ability with the language. This implies substantial ability.

Then why did Oswald perform so poorly on the test?

> It adds up to a lot of evidence, solid evidence.

It adds up to a lot of nothing. When the real test is given Oswald
tanks it.

> Not like your boy on the bumper. What we have is a picture of a young man who had to be one of the most amazing linguists in the history of language.

You`d expect such a person to score higher on the language test.

> Either that, or he was a different person who learned Russian as a boy. I'm sure that's the one Occam would go with. He'd take his razor to the official theory that Oswald was a Boy Wonder.
> Edit your post: To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?) You know, Sienfake, you issue a lot of speculative opinions, like the boy on the bumper. You posted a picture of car that was nowhere near where the boy was standing. And he was standing straight up, and there is no way his mother could hold him straight up. For that matter, there is no way he could be standing straight up on a bumper either. So, your whole story is bull sh_t.
> We have Oswald arriving at El Toro in California in December 1958 with an already good grasp of the Russian language- a grasp that is unexplained by any of his prior activity. We have the testimony of Nick Delgado.
>
> Nick Delgado: He always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist; it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that periodical. It was a newspaper.
>
> Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language?
>
> Mr. DELGADO. Right.
>
> Now, you have to appraise this not only in terms of what he said but of what he didn't say. He didn't say that Osawld was taking a mail-order course in Russian. (And Nick distributed the mail.) He didn't say that Oswald was taking a class in Russian or had a private tutor in Russian. He didn't even say anything about seeing Oswald with a textbook to learn Russian. He just said that Oswald was receiving Russian newspapers.
> Well, if you are getting a newspaper in a certain language, that means that you ALREADY have a good grasp of the language.

Why do you repeat this terrible idea, it in no way is a gauge for
Oswald`s ability to speak Russian. It could be a tool for him to learn
Russian.

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 6, 2013, 8:48:36 PM2/6/13

to

Hank Sienzant and my other opponents on Amazon have been claiming that
Oswald showed up in December 1958 at El Toro Air Station from Japan not
knowing Russian and that he independently advanced himself just by
subscribing to Russian newspapers and magazines and getting Russian books,
and thereby, he learned enough Russian to take a proficiency exam two
months later in February. And they are complaining that he only got a
score of "Poor"- as if he should have done a lot better.

Well, I posted this question about Oswald learning Russian by himself on a
Russian forum website, and this is the response I got. The person's name is
Никита Мотрий
with this picture attached:

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6793/55520910873580263929118.jpg

Никита Мотрий:
You must be kidding. Many of russians don't know their own language quite
good despite the fact that's their native language. They seems don't even
know what orthography actually is. And it's not about their laziness or
silliness. It's just about incredible complexity of russian language.
Declension stuff, phonetic stuff, etc. So do you really think that you
could learn russian only through books? Well, you can try. But it takes
years to learn even nuts and bolts of Russian.

According to the official story (and it's in the Warren Report), Oswald
was a high school drop-out who only completed 3 weeks of the 10th grade,
who spent his entire time in Japan getting drunk, getting into fights,
getting court-martialed- twice no less, getting imprisoned, getting
hospitalized for shooting himself, and having a nervous breakdown in
Taiwan, and yet he shows up at El Toro Air Station near Irvine CA in
December 1958 and right away starts impressing people, such as Nelson
Delgado and Rosslyn Quinn, with his knowledge of ability at Russian.
Without any formal training or instruction of any kind, he just started
looking at Russian newspapers and listening to Russian love songs, and he
learned enough Russian from that to take a proficiency exam in Russian two
months later.

Let's be frank: if you are at the beginning, it does you no good
whatsoever to look at Russian newspapers. You can't absorb anything from
that. It is a different alphabet, for goodness sake, you don't even
recognize the letters. Of course, there are some matching lettes, but they
aren't the same as ours. In Russian "p" sounds like our "r", and "h"
sounds like our "n". Listening to Russian love songs doesn't help either.
I have listened to plenty of them. I stayed with a lovely Russian woman
who had Russian television from Moscow piped into her apartment in
Toronto. The tv was on a lot. Sometimes it was Russian news. Sometimes it
was Russian pop music. Sometimes it was a Russian movie. She also had
Russian newspapers and magazines. I took it all in with curiosity, but I
didn't learn a thing from it. You can't learn anything from flipping
through that stuff. Nyet, nyet, nyet. This is all a big lie. The man who
showed up as Lee Harvey Oswald at El Toro already knew a substantial
amount of Russian, and that is beyond doubt. And, he could not have been
the same man who had just come from Japan.

Jean Davison

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Feb 6, 2013, 8:51:02 PM2/6/13

to jjdavi...@yahoo.com

On Feb 6, 12:25 pm, Ralph Cinque <budab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jean, you are whistling in the dark here. When Marina met Oswald, she thought he was a native speaker of Russian. George M. raved about Oswald's talent in Russian, saying that he they discussed Russian literature in detail in Russian.

Marina didn't say "native speaker." She told the HSCA...

QUOTE:

Mr. McDONALD. At this time [when you met LHO] you were speaking in

Russian together?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from
another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states
do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak
different languages.
Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian
state?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.

UNQUOTE

Russian isn't the native language in the Baltic states, as
someone has already pointed out.

The chronology is very important. Marina met LHO in March
1961. Oswald had been in Russia since late October 1959. Search
Mailer's book for "Sonya," who said that when Oswald arrived at the
Minsk factory the workers communicated with him using sign language.
Shushkevich began teaching him Russian in February 1960. He had help
from others, and he was immersed in the language every day.

Sure, he was fluent by the time de M met him. He could
express his ideas and understand others, but with grammatical
errors.

>
> And you have no grounds to dispute the merit if Nick Delgado's testimony. He reported that Oswald was ordering and reading Russian newspapers at El Toro. And Nick was the mailman. He delivered those Russian newspapers to Oswald, and we have every right to presume that Oswald read them. He didn't order them to look at the pictures, did he?
>

We have no "right to presume" diddly.

Are you arguing that a person who wants to learn Russian has
to wait until he's proficient before subscribing to a Russian
newspaper?

> IF YOU CAN READ A NEWSPAPER IN A CERTAIN LANGUAGE, YOU ARE FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE. It's as good a litmus test as any.
>
> I'll take it further: If Oswald was able to labor through a Russian newspaper and garner even one-fourth of the information therein, he was a linguistic genius considering his complete utter lack of instruction in it- according to the official story.

You haven't shown what he garnered from the newspapers.

>
> And, you have to appraise Delgado's testimony not only in terms of what he said but of what he didn't say. He didn't say that Osawld was taking a mail-order course in Russian. He didn't say that Oswald was taking a class in Russian or had a private tutor in Russian. He didn't even say anything about seeing Oswald with a textbook to learn Russian. He just said that Oswald was receiving Russian newspapers.
>
> Well, if you are getting a newspaper in a certain language, that means that you ALREADY have a good grasp of the language. At least, you definitely have SOME grasp of the language already, a working grasp, enough to be able to understand what you're reading. Again, you have no right to assume he got those newspapers to just look at the pictures. This is evidence, and this is applying rational thought to the evidence.

Hardly! I could order a Russian newspaper right now,
and I know zero Russian beyond a few common expressions. I could get
a Russian dictionary and try to work out some of the words. Sounds
to me like something a beginner might do.

>
> Would I order a subscription to a newspaper that was written in a language that I was unable to read and comprehend? No, I would not. Therefore, I shall assume Oswald wouldn't either.
>
> Then there was this statement of Delgado's: "He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand." Here, he seems to be admitting that he's not a good judge, but I know of no reason why we should not take that at face value.
>
> Nick added: "He tried to teach me some Russian." That certains suggests established proficiency. Would you try to teach someone Russian?

It suggests nothing about proficiency. I could teach you
many Spanish phrases. I'm not at all proficient in Spanish. (And
why do you call Nelson Delgado "Nick"?)

>
> Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before he spoke Russian.
> Mr. DELGADO. Russian.
> Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that time or highly proficient?
> Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it also.
> Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?
> Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian
>
> I would say that that is very substantial testimony from Mr. Delgado that Oswald knew Russian to a substantial, significant, meaningful degree of proficiency.

No, it isn't. Delgado said "I imagine he would be." He
*assumed* Oswald could read the paper he was looking at but he didn't
know how much of it Oswald really understood. And it doesn't follow
at all that if he could read a language he could speak it also.
That's simply not true.

> And regarding the Russian proficiency test- just the fact that Oswald was desirous and willing to take it, and just the fact that he was considered qualfied and eligible to take it speaks highly of his ability.

You're making an assumption again. Anyone could sign up
for the test.

>I mean, how far do you have to get before the mere thought of such a thing surfaces? And that he got a result of "poor" does not diminish him at all.

Still waiting for you to cite your evidence that he
"passed" this test.

>I just read a report today that said that Russian grammar is so difficult that millions of native Russians go their whole lives without ever learning it. They speak the language just not bothering with the complex grammatical rules. I suppose they would be rated "poor" too. But, are you going to say they aren't fluent?
> The fact is that Oswald completed the test, and no one said afterwards that he was inept or unqualfied to have taken it.

He didn't have to qualify to take the test. That was
the purpose of the test!

> Then there was this in the Warren Report:
> "Most of the marines who knew him were aware that he was studying Russian;. One of them, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., arranged a date between Lee and his aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who was also studying Russian. Miss Quinn thought that Oswald spoke Russian well in view of his lack of formal training."

I haven't disagreed with that.

>
> Ms. Quinn was studying Russian formally at the Berlitz School, and she was impressed with Oswald's ability with the language. This implies substantial ability.

No, it does not. Read what she said.

>It adds up to a lot of evidence, solid evidence. What we have is a picture of a young man who had to either be one >of the most amazing linguists in the history of language 0R, as John Armstrong says, he was a different person who >learned Russian as a boy. And I'm sure that's the one Occam would go with. He'd take his razor to the official theory >that Oswald was a Boy Wonder who was reading Russian newspapers without help from a soul.

Nobody claimed he was a Boy Wonder. Occam must be
spinning in his grave about now.

Jean

Bud

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:07:41 AM2/7/13

to

You guys are funny, when Oswald can`t be shown to have done
something you believe it, and when he is shown to have done something
you don`t.

Ralph Cinque

unread,

Feb 7, 2013, 12:11:06 AM2/7/13

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It was Oswald in the doorway: Harvey Oswald.

And, what's established is that Harvey Oswald was reading Russian
newspapers at El Toro, and I dare say that if you can do that, it means
you're fluent. It's as good a litmus test as any. After all, how well
would you have to know the language in order to make sense out of this?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6811/iskra18.jpg

But Sandy doesn't want to grant the use of the word "fluent". But, if you
glance at the above paper, you'll realize that it takes an advanced
know-how in Russian to read it. So, for Sandy, it was something short of
fluency but enough to read newspapers to a meaningful degree. I'd say
you're mincing words.

So, let's just call it an ability to read Russian newspapers. Oswald had
that ability. He couldn't have gotten it just by looking at newspapers.
So, he must have already had the ability. So, how, when, where, and by
what means did he acquire that ability?

And more importantly, why is it necessary for me to ask this question in
2013? It's been 49 years since the Warren Report came out. Presumably, the
Warren Commission and the FBI went through Oswald's whole life with a
spotlight and fine-tooth comb. Nelson Delgado's testimony was in the
Warren Report, and it paints a vivid picture of Oswald doing wonders with
the Russian language. So, why wasn't the means by which Oswald acquired
the skill to read Russian newspapers ascertained in 1964? Or soon
thereafter? And since his skill also included speaking Russian, the
acquisition of such a skill would definitely have required help from
another human being (he could not have taught himself to speak Russian),
so there must have been a teacher involved. Why wasn't that teacher or
teachers found? Why didn't he or they come forward? It wasn't a crime to
teach Oswald Russian, was it? He hadn't been accused of killing Kennedy
yet, had he? They had nothing to fear, did they? We should have names,
places, times, and more. But, we have nothing.

I'll add that even in reading, you first have to know how to speak the
words. And that's because most of us read by silently innunciating the
words as we see them. We say the words to ourselves, and it's in the
saying that the cognitive recognition takes place. That's how the
"synapse" occurs. The word lands in our consciousness as a result of our
saying it.

Now, there are speed-readers who learn how to suppress that tendency to
innunciate: to read and comprehend without innunciating. But even for
them, it's usually limited. They're able to absorb a few words or a phrase
at a time on a purely visual/mental basis, but usually they do land
solidly on some words to get grounded, which involves an innunciation.

But, it has no bearing on Oswald because it's ludicrous to think that
Oswald was speed-reading his Russian. It's amazing enough that he was able
to read it, even slowly. And we can be pretty darn sure that he was
innunciating the words as he read them.

So, to read is to speak. Therefore, Oswald spoke Russian. Plus, Delgado
heard him speak Russian. Delgado said Oswald taught him some Russian, and
that involves speaking. Therefore, some living, breathing human being must
have, at some point, taught him Oswald to speak Russian. He could not have
done it himself. So, who was it? I'll tell you who it was: his parents.

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:17:20 AM2/7/13

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No, I haven't.

I am going to try to contact John Armstrong about joining the Oswald
Innocence Campaign.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/30/armstrongr.jpg

And I think he may be open to it because he mentions several times that
Harvey wore a brown shi...rt with an exposed t-shirt (as opposed to Lee,
who wore a white shirt). But to describe a shirt as just "brown" implies
that it was uniformly brown. If it was brown and checkered, you wouldn't
just say brown.

And when we look at Doorman we see likewise a shirt that looks uniformly
brown and not checkered. I realize that colors are obscure in a black and
white photo. Yet, the relative darkness of Doorman's outer shirt is
entirely consistent with what we would expect for brown.

I don't know Mr. Armstrong, and I don't know how much thought he has given
to the Doorman question. But, he sounds like a very intelligent man and a
very autonomous thinker. Therefore, he should be open to the
Oswald-as-Doorman thesis.

But, if he hasn't thought about it, he may not realize that the
Lovelady-as-Doorman thesis rests on nothing but thin air.

When our adversaries belittle the idea of Oswald-as-Doorman, they usually
do so on the basis of no basis at all. That is, they just say things like
"That was resolved long ago. Nobody debates that any more. All
researchers, except the crackpots, accept that it's Lovelady."

That's when I say that I don't care about that, that I don't give a rat's
behind about that. I want to know what the evidentiary basis for it is.

Some refuse to continue after that. They may make one last derogatory
remark and then split. But some take the bait, and what they usually do is
cite how the Doorman issue was handled by the Warren Commission or by the
HSCA or both.

Well, the Warren Report based its conclusion entirely on eye- witness
testimonies, particularly Lovelady's and Frazier's. The FBI photos of
Lovelady were attacked to a letter that J.Edgar Hoover sent to the Warren
Commission, which is linked as a "document" to the Warren Report. But,
there is no evidence that anything was done with those photos. There is no
evidence that those photos were ever discussed. There is no evidence that
anybody even looked at those pictures. They're not even included in the
Warren Report online.

So, how did they handle Lovelady's and Frazier's questioning? To identify
Lovelady in the Altgens photo, they had them both mark the exact same copy
of the Altgens photo. How weird is that? They ask Lovelady to draw an
arrow on the photo when there is already an arrow present? That's
preposterous! And, the two men contradicted each other. Lovelady said he
was "up on your top level" whereas Frazier said that Lovelady was "down
two or three steps".

Another weird thing Frazier said is that Lovelady was only 5'2". When
pressed about that, he said that maybe he was 5'3". But, we know that
Lovelady was 5'8" because the FBI measured him and reported it, and we
also know it from looking at the Groden and Jackson images of Lovelady. He
wasn’t a midget. So, how could Frazier be that far off in the man's
height? I don’t know, but if his judgment is that bad about that, why
should we trust his judgment about anything?

Lovelady denied seeing Oswald again that day after they broke for lunch at
11:45. So, why should we believe that he saw Oswald again later that
afternoon at the Dallas PD?

Mr. Ball: Did you ever see him again that day?
Lovelady: No.

And if you have been following the work of our Larry Rivera, you know that
we have got Frazier pegged in the Wiegman film.

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8762/fraziercomposite.jpg

Unless someone knows of another TSBD employee with hair that length and
color, and with a shirt that color, that's him; that's Frazier. And it
means that he wasn't standing back in the shadows after all; he was
actually in front of Doorman on a lower step.

The bottom line is that there is no good reason to put stock in what Buell
Frazier said or in what the convicted felon Billy Lovelady said.

And remember that at best, eye-witness testimony is flimsy. The Innocence
Project has saved the lives of 100+ men who were on Death Row because of
eye-witness testimony.

What about the HSCA? They based their conclusion on two things: the work
of Robert Groden and the conclusions of a committee of anthropologists.

Robert Groden photographed Lovelady at his home in Colorado. What value
was that? None! He should have taken Lovelady to Dealey Plaza and
photographed him in the doorway the way Altgens did. Why didn't Groden
think of it? What was stopping him? Nothing was stopping him. If Ralph
Cinque could do it in 2012 without asking anyone's permission, then Robert
Groden could surely have done it in 1978. The only thing stopping him was
a lack of brains.

Then- get this: Groden compared the plaid shirt that Lovelady wore for him
that day in 1978- not to Doorman- but to the images of Lovelady from
11/22/63. And because Lovelady's shirt matched the shirts in those images,
Groden was content; he thought it meant something.

But wait! That assumed the very thing he was testing! It was meaningless
to say that Lovelady was a match to himself. What mattered was whether
Lovelady's shirt matched the one that Doorman wore. But, Groden didn’t
look at that. If he had, he’d have seen that Doorman’s fine grainy
shirt did not match Lovelady’s checkered plaid in any way.

So far, we're striking out here, and all that's left to save us are the
anthropologists. So, what did they do? They started by making disclaimers
about the inadequacy of the images and the uncertainty of the results. But
then, they said they took "anthropometric measurements" of the faces of
Oswald, Lovelady, and Doorman, measuring such things as distance from nose
to lip, bulbousness of the nose, width of the eyes, length of the
forehead, etc. and based on these measurements, they think it's more
likely Lovelady.

But note that all they did was describe the process that they used and
issue a general conclusion. They did not show their work.

Remember in school how your Math teacher would sometimes require you to
show your work, how you performed the calculations, the steps that you
took? Well, why couldn't these anthropologists have shown us their work?

Because without showing their work, it's just a faith-based thing. We're
not seeing anything ourselves. We're just being told that their
sophisticated measurements proved it. Well, that is not good enough. It
wasn't good enough then, and it's not good enough now.

First of all, which image or images of Lovelady did they use? They didn't
say. But look at all of these. Don't you think that if fine facial
measurements were taken of these supposed Lovelady's from 11/22/63 that
different results wold follow? How could they not, as disparate as they
are? Look at them!

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/632/collage350.jpg

They didn't even consider the most reliable image that we have of Lovelady,
which is the one taken by Mark Lane.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7999/loveladylarger.jpg

They did not consider the possibility that the Altgens' photo was altered.

They did not consider the possibility that there were false images of
Lovelady, and again, they didn’t even tell us which image of Lovelady
they were considering.

They did not consider anything about Doorman's clothes; they did not
compare them to Oswald's and Lovelady's. Doorman’s clothes make up a
much bigger part of his image than his face, so why ignore his clothing?

They did not resolve the discrepancy over which shirt Lovelady wore.

And finally, they said that Doorman's hairline was a match to Lovelady,
but without acknowledging it was a match to the hair of Young Lovelady
from the 1950s. Oops!

What we are left with of tangible value at the end is: absolutely nothing.
Nada. Or, as Harvey would say, "Neesh-taw". They provided us with not one
thing that we can actually latch onto and have an optical/cerebral
experience of seeing and saying, "Yes, that's him! Lovelady!" Instead, it
was more like: "Trust us; it's Lovelady."

Now, do you see why we say that the only thing holding up the Lovelady
idea is thin air? It's not that there is very little evidence to support
him. It's that there is absolutely NO evidence to support him. There is
nothing. There never was. It has all been a delusion and a lie from
November 22, 1963 to the present day.

Does anyone have contact information for John Armstrong?

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:17:39 AM2/7/13

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Walt, I would like a reference for Oswald writing his name in Pic's
address book as "Harvey". Thanks.

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:18:13 AM2/7/13

to gwmcc...@earthlink.net

No, you're wrong. What she said specifically was that based on his accent,
she thought he might be from not the Balkans, but the Baltics, like
Lithuania. And at the time, Russian was the primary language of all three
Baltic states. So, she indeed thought that he was a native Russian
speaker.

Walt

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:20:27 AM2/7/13

to

Ralph, I have the distinct impression that you've alread bought
Armstrong's fantasy.

I'm not saying that his fantasy is impossible but I find it
doubtful. If the Oswald that came to the US in 1962 wasn't the same
man that was born on Oct 18 1939. His mother and brother would have
known. There are just to many tiny details in a family's life that
only a family member would know. I simple event like a kid getting
stung on his butt by a bee while skinny dippin in a pond, while on a
family picnlc, can be a memorable event that only family members who
were there would know and remember.

But you seem to discard the idea that Lee could have learned to speak
Russian between the time he was in Japan and his return to El Toro.
I believe that he was absent from his unit enough that he could easily
have learned to speak Russian during those separations from his
unit. I believe there are techniques for learning a foriegn
language while a person is asleep or an induced subconsciousness. I
know nothing about the Russian language but it seems to me that Lee
could have learned to speak the language while in a subconscious
state. Afterward he could have learned to read and write the
language. After all that is how we all learn to speak, read, and write
english. We first learn to speak english , and then we learn to read
and write in english. ( though I'll admit some have learned to write
much better than I can)

TLA

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:23:10 AM2/7/13

to

Yes, the JFK propaganda reaches all the way into Wikipedia. About Oswald
teaching himself rudimentary Russian, I think not. I know about the
rudimentary Russian. I've got the book, "Charles Berlitz: Passport to
Russian". It's designed to impart conversational phrases to a traveler, so
that you can take a cab, order a meal, etc. while travelling in Russia.
It's all phrases and short sentences, and they have them written out
phonetically in English. I studied it before travelling to Ukraine, and it
was helpful. But, you're not learning Russian- you're faking Russian. But,
Oswald wasn't faking it. Oswald had much more than a rudimentary knowledge
of Russian. He was fluent in Russian. His wife, upon first meeting him,
thought he was a native Russian speaker. There is NO WAY he taught himself
that.

Soooo ... when I was in secondary school, back in the '60s, I was merely
deluding myself when I taught myself Russian because Dostoevsky, Turgenev
and Tolstoy so captivated me that I *needed* to learn Russian to
experience the original texts? (At that time, in Canada at least, Russian
was not part of the curriculum.) And other students whom I met later at
university who shared stories of having learned Russian for similar
reasons were also deluded?

Perhaps we were just "faking" it so we could order the fish while
pretending to be those great Russian authors?

It's great, though, that you've got *THE BOOK* ... although I think it is
extremely unlikely that you studied "Charles Berlitz: Passport to Russian"
... before travelling to Ukraine, and it was helpful". Unless, of course,
you *wanted* the Ukrainians to hate your imitation of their oppressors'
language.

Or perhaps, like my friends and I, you just wanted to be able to order the
fish. Although, in your case if you *were* sounding out the Russian, you
were probably doing it so you could order the waiter to order the fish.
:-)

Anthony Marsh

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:24:03 AM2/7/13

to

The KGB was very suspicious of Oswald and thought he might be a
provocation.

>
>
>

Anthony Marsh

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:25:22 AM2/7/13

to

On 2/6/2013 1:33 PM, Walt wrote:
> On Feb 4, 7:01 pm, Ralph Cinque <budab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Marsh, it's just as disgusting reading that narrative in the Warren
>> Report. And, Oswald passed that Russian proficiency test, even though his
>> score was "poor". He did not fail it. And Marina thought he was a native
>> Russian speaker, probably from the Baltics. But still, that's mighty
>> impressive.
>>
>> Look: the time has come that we need to start taking John Armstrong very
>> seriously. Unless someone comes up with veriable evidence that the
>> Military put Oswald though an intensive immersion course in the Russian
>> language, then the Russian-speaking Oswald we know was not really him.
>> Oswald did not teach himself Russian. Did you hear me? I said: Oswald did
>> not teach himself Russian. If you aren't smart enough to realize that,
>> then you're a hopeless case.
>
> Your absolutely right Ralph..... Oswald did not learn to read,write,
> and speak, Russian without a very good teacher at his elbow.
>
> However..... The very FACT that Lee was fluent in Russian when he
> "defected" would have raised a red flag of warning for the Russians.

He was not fluent. You base wacky theories on false premises.

Marcus Hanson

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Feb 7, 2013, 12:28:28 AM2/7/13

to

=Nelson= Delgado. =Nick= Delgado is the gentleman considered by some to be
a "quack" doctor ,in the field of nutrition.

Jason Burke

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Feb 7, 2013, 11:40:09 AM2/7/13

to

On 2/6/2013 9:11 PM, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> It was Oswald in the doorway: Harvey Oswald.
>
> And, what's established is that Harvey Oswald was reading Russian
> newspapers at El Toro, and I dare say that if you can do that, it means
> you're fluent. It's as good a litmus test as any. After all, how well
> would you have to know the language in order to make sense out of this?
>
> http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6811/iskra18.jpg
>
> But Sandy doesn't want to grant the use of the word "fluent". But, if you
> glance at the above paper, you'll realize that it takes an advanced
> know-how in Russian to read it. So, for Sandy, it was something short of
> fluency but enough to read newspapers to a meaningful degree. I'd say
> you're mincing words.
>
> So, let's just call it an ability to read Russian newspapers. Oswald had

Which Oswald, Ralph? Lee, Harvey, or Lee Harvey?

> that ability. He couldn't have gotten it just by looking at newspapers.
> So, he must have already had the ability. So, how, when, where, and by
> what means did he acquire that ability?
>
> And more importantly, why is it necessary for me to ask this question in
> 2013? It's been 49 years since the Warren Report came out. Presumably, the

Ralph, once you realize that it's not necessary to ask this question,
will you go back to twisting spines? Please?

Ralph, once again you've managed to go from A to B right to Z, without
any of those other intermediate letters.

Jason Burke

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Feb 7, 2013, 11:40:29 AM2/7/13

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Feb 7, 2013, 10:10:16 PM2/7/13

to

Hey Marsh.....How's this for a wacky theory........

It's common knowledge that the communists were active and influential in
Japan. Japan was a US satelite that had a huge US military presence in
that nation. IOW Japan was a bountiful garden for Russian spies. I doubt
that yoou will dispute that, so by extension Japan would have been an
excellent place to recruit disgruntled or greedy US military men.

I believe the Russians saw Lee Oswald as a person they could use to their
advantage. They could easily have promised him an exciting and rewarding
career after he was discharged from the Marine Corp. They very well could
have told him that they would teach him the rudiments of the Russian
language if he'd attend tutoring classes while on liberty from the base.
They had a beautiful young waitress who worked in the Quen Bee nightclub
who would act as his tutor in Russian.

The Russian's didn't know that ol Unca Sam had beat them to the punch and
had already recruited Oswald to work as an ONI operative while carrying
out his duties as a regulat Marine. Hence...Oswald reported that he'd
been approached by the Russians who wanted him to go to Russia and teach
Young Russians how to speak and act like American teenagers. His ONI
handler told him to go along with the Russians and pretend to be a
disgruntled Marine and challenge a superior to a fight by dumping a drink
on his head and cussing him out. His girl friend would see that outward
display of hatred for the Marines and teel her handler what she'd seen and
heard. The marines would put him in the "brig" for a few days where they
could help him learn to speak Russian. The Russian's would think that Lee
was learning the language from their tutor his girlfriend.

So when he arrived in Moscow they didn't question his ability to speak
Russian, they assumed that he had learned from their agent at the Queen
Bee.

How's that for a "wacky theory",Mush

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 7, 2013, 10:18:11 PM2/7/13

to

Wikipedia says:

While in the Marines, Oswald made an effort to teach himself rudimentary
Russian. Along with his self-taught Russian, he had saved $1,500 of his
Marine Corps salary, etc.

Well, that is buckus and bonkers. And if you think otherwise, you are
thinking like an insane person. It's just not possible. It is totally
beyond reality.

So, snap out of your trance. Oswald was speaking and reading Russian
without ever taking a single lesson, without having access to any of the
modern audio-visual tools that are considered mandatory today. Supposedly,
he did it just by picking up books and newspapers. That's bull! Stop the
nonsense! He could not possibly have done it. He could not have gotten
anywhere with it. He couldn't even have gotten started with it. And I
won't let you get away with such a travesty of thinking. Call me the
enforcer. I enforce reality on those, like you, who shun it. Don't
practice your mental delusions around me. You can't.

Sandy McCroskey

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Feb 7, 2013, 10:19:41 PM2/7/13

to

Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Oswald was reading Russian newspapers.
>
> http://tinypic.com/r/qy7loz/6
>
> One must be well progressed in the Russian language to read a Russian
> newspaper. There is no evidentiary trail by which Oswald could possibly
> have acquired such an ability.

Ha ha ha.
Newspapers are among the *easiest* sources to read in a foreign
language, and a very good way to learn new words and the idioms of the day.

The language of newspapers is geared to the (wo)man on the street and is
relatively simple, straightforward and unambiguous. Any prior
familiarity with current events gives a context that facilitates
conjectural understanding. Besides, there are often pictures.

Once you get over the hurdle of the different alphabet (not that hard,
really), is Russian much harder than, say, German? German is very close
to English, but the verb declensions are extremely complicated, and I
think they must really be simply memorized through immersion in the
language (say, by living in a German town for a couple years...). Sure,
Russian declines nouns, but on the other hand, it has no definite or
indefinite articles.

Also, like Spanish and Italian (pretty easy languages), and quite unlike
English (the world-conquering bitch), the way a Russian word is spelled
usually tells you clearly how that word is pronounced.

>
> There are only two choices, Marsh- whether you like it or not.
>
> Either the US Military immersed Oswald in a Russian language program and
> has been lying about it for 50 years in order to cover up their false
> defector program, of which Oswald was a part
>
> OR
>
> John Armstrong is right, that there were two Oswalds, one of whom spoke
> Russian since childhood, and the switch took place after Japan.
>
> That's it, Marsh. Take your pic. Because that's all there is. And save the
> blather. I don't take orders from you.
>

I've never seen a more egregious example of the fallacy of false
alternatives.

/sm

Walt

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Feb 7, 2013, 10:49:32 PM2/7/13

to

On Feb 6, 11:17 pm, Ralph Cinque <budab...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Walt, I would like a reference for Oswald writing his name in Pic's
> address book as "Harvey". Thanks.

I haven't a clue Ralph...... I don't know anything about Lee writing
anything in Pic's address book.

But I do remember that Lee sent a note (on a chtismas card?) in which
he apologized for not being home at Christmas time. As I recall the
note said something like ..."I'm sorry I wasn't there when you visited
at Chrismas. I was out of town for a couple of weeks."

What I wrote above is not verbatim, but it was written on a belated
christamas card that Lee sent to his brother.

It struck me as odd that lee would have left his young Russian wife
alone for her first Christmas in the United States.

Have you any info about this?

Walt

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Feb 7, 2013, 10:50:06 PM2/7/13

to

> http://free.bridal-shower-themes.com/img/b/l/blank-map-of-europe-and_...

I've always suspected that Marina didn't just meet Lee Oswald by a chance
meeting at a dance. I believe she knew this young American that the KGB
was keeping an eye on was going to be at that dance. In fact she may have
been assigned to make friends with him and learn what she could. At
anyrate she knew that he was an American, and was surprised by his command
of the Russian language.

However, because of his accent, she
> thought he might be from a different country within the Soviet sphere,
> such as one of the Baltic countries, perhaps Lithuania. I'm pretty sure
> that Lithuania was the example she gave.
>
> Well, if Oswald had learned Russian early in life from his parents, he'd
> have learned it with whatever accent his parents had. According to John
> Armstrong, Harvey's parents were from Hungary. Look at the map.
>

> http://free.bridal-shower-themes.com/img/b/l/blank-map-of-europe-and_...

>
> So, Marina was off by a few countries, but essentially she was right:

> Oswald was a ...
>
> read more »

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 7, 2013, 10:52:56 PM2/7/13

to

If we took a person who is totally unfamiliar with Russian- he knows
nothing of it- and we saturate him with Russian newspapers for 90 days,
and then we give him a Russian proficiency test, what will be the outcome?

Here is what I am willing to put big money on: I say that not only would
he not be able to answer one single question correctly, he would be unable
to formulate any kind of answer to any question. In other words, his test
result would be a complete and total void. Not only could he not complete
the test, he couldn't even begin it.

Any takers?

Jean Davison

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Feb 7, 2013, 10:53:45 PM2/7/13

to jjdavi...@yahoo.com

On Feb 6, 11:23 pm, TLA <temporarylikeachil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, the JFK propaganda reaches all the way into Wikipedia. About Oswald
> teaching himself rudimentary Russian, I think not. I know about the
> rudimentary Russian. I've got the book, "Charles Berlitz: Passport to
> Russian". It's designed to impart conversational phrases to a traveler, so
> that you can take a cab, order a meal, etc. while travelling in Russia.
> It's all phrases and short sentences, and they have them written out
> phonetically in English. I studied it before travelling to Ukraine, and it
> was helpful. But, you're not learning Russian- you're faking Russian. But,
> Oswald wasn't faking it. Oswald had much more than a rudimentary knowledge
> of Russian. He was fluent in Russian. His wife, upon first meeting him,
> thought he was a native Russian speaker.

That's not what she said. Check her HSCA testimony.

>There is NO WAY he taught himself
> that.
>

He didn't. He learned Russian by living and working in
Russia, where he had a private tutor.

What's that you say? The conspiracy books don't explain
that? I'm stunned -- stunned, I tell you!

Jean

Jean Davison

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Feb 7, 2013, 11:47:43 PM2/7/13

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Sandy McCroskey

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Feb 7, 2013, 11:48:03 PM2/7/13

to

The hypothetical situation described bears no resemblance to Oswald's.
/sm

Anthony Marsh

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Feb 7, 2013, 11:52:34 PM2/7/13

to

On 2/7/2013 10:18 PM, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Wikipedia says:
>
> While in the Marines, Oswald made an effort to teach himself rudimentary
> Russian. Along with his self-taught Russian, he had saved $1,500 of his
> Marine Corps salary, etc.
>
> Well, that is buckus and bonkers. And if you think otherwise, you are
> thinking like an insane person. It's just not possible. It is totally
> beyond reality.
>

Did you ever notice that most Wikipedia articles usually reference
footnotes? You know, those numbers in brackets like [9].

Ralph Cinque

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Feb 8, 2013, 12:06:29 AM2/8/13

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Jean, Oswald was proficient in Russian before he went to Russia, and we
have multiple confirmations of that. We have Nelson Delgado. We have
Rosslyn Quinn. We have Oswald passing a Russian proficiency test in
February 1959, although just barely. We have Oswald rating his own Russian
proficiency as the equivalent of one full year of college study- and that
was before he went to Russia. We have the simple fact that he was able to
read Russian newspapers.

Oswald knew a functional amount of Russian before he ever stepped foot in
Russia, and I don't think that's even in dispute. You are just practicing
denial.