SS Agents: What they heard, what they saw.
claviger
different cars.
0 - Pilot Car
2 - Lead Car
2 - Presidential Limousine 100X
8 - Security Car 679X
1 - Vice President Car
3 - VP Security Car
Of the 16 agents 10 did not recognize the first loud pop as a gunshot.
8 thought it was a firecracker.
1 thought it was a motorcycle backfire.
1 thought it was a tire blowout.
How many shots they heard:
2 shots / 3 agents.
3 shots / 12 agents.
Didn't say / 1 agent.
First two shots closer together : 1 agent
Equal spacing : 3 agents
Last two shots closer together : 11 agents
Didn't say : 1 agent.
Of 16 agents 7 saw the AR-15 rifle being handled in 679X.
Number shots heard:
Bennett 3 FC C AR15
Greer 2 Backfire C*
Hickey 3 FC C AR15
Hill 2 FC B*
Johns 3 A
Kellerman 3 FC C
Kinney 3 C
Kivett 3 B AR15
Landis 2 FC/Blowout B*
Lawson 3 C AR15
McIntyre 3 C AR15
Ready ? FC ?
Roberts 3 C AR15
Sorrells 3 C
Taylor 3 FC C
Youngblood 3 FC C AR15
A - First two shots closer together.
B - Equal spacing.
C - Last two shots closer together.
16 SS Agents in five cars
0 Pilot Car
2 Lead Car Lawson, Sorrells
2 Presidential Limousine Greer, Kellerman,
8 Security Car 679X Kinney, Roberts,
Hill, Ready
McIntyre, Landis,
Hickey, Bennett
1 Vice President Car Youngblood
3 VP Security Car Taylor, Kivett, Johns
Gerry Simone
One I believe said that they were on top of each other. If not the same
SSA, one referred the shots as a 'flurry'.
It'd be interesting to know if they all commented on just how close those
shots were.
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8166703e-3c79-494d...@s9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
John McAdams
wrote:
>There were 16 Secret Service Agents riding in the motorcade in 5
>different cars.
>
>0 - Pilot Car
>2 - Lead Car
>2 - Presidential Limousine 100X
>8 - Security Car 679X
>1 - Vice President Car
>3 - VP Security Car
>
>Of the 16 agents 10 did not recognize the first loud pop as a gunshot.
>8 thought it was a firecracker.
>1 thought it was a motorcycle backfire.
>1 thought it was a tire blowout.
>
Interesting, since it suggests that SS agents of that era were very
deficient in terms of realistic training.
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
claviger
Security Car 679X
O’Donnell.........3....A
Powers............3....C....FC
Vice President Car
DPS Jacks......3....C
LBJ..............shots
Mrs Johnson....3....C....FCs
Yarborough......3....C....GS......AR15
VP Security Car
DPS Rich........3....C
Cliff Carter ......3 ....B.....FC
Mayor's Car
Earle Cabell.....3....C.....FC ......AR15
Mrs Cabell.......3....C.....GS......Smelled gunpowder.....Saw
extension from window
Ray Roberts....NS....................Smelled gunpowder
claviger
1) Wm Greer...........Did not see third shot hit.
2) Roy Kellerman.....Did not see third shot hit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Clint Hill ............."I noticed a portion of the President's
head on the right rear side was missing / The right rear portion of
his head was missing. / the one large gaping wound in the right rear
portion of the head."
4) Sam Kinney........"I saw one shot strike the President in the right
side of the head."
5) Emory Roberts...."I saw what appeared to be a small explosion the
right side of the President's head"
6) John Ready..........Did not see head wound.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
7) Wm McIntyre ......"After the second shot, I looked at the President and
witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot."
8) George Hickey....."It looked to me as if the President was struck
in the right upper rear of his head."
9) Glen Bennett......."A second shot followed immediately and hit the
right rear high of the President's head."
10) Paul Landis........"it appeared that the President's head split
open"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two passengers in Security Car 679X :
1) Ken O’Donnell......"perfect shot"
2) Dave Powers........"then there was a third shot which took off the
top of the President's head"
yeuhd
came?
John Blubaugh
Where was Clint Eastwood? ;-)
JB
bigdog
> The overwhelming majority thought the last two shots were closer together.
> One I believe said that they were on top of each other. If not the same
> SSA, one referred the shots as a 'flurry'.
>
> It'd be interesting to know if they all commented on just how close those
> shots were.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I tend to believe that those who described two shots coming right on
top of each other were hearing multiple sounds from the same shot.
There is no physical evidence of any shots coming from anywhere except
the SN.
Anthony Marsh
He took Clint Hill's spot.
> JB
Gerry Simone
overwhelming majority of SSAs (12) said they heard only 3 shots, and that
11 agents said that the last 2 were closer togoether?
The so-called physical evidence conveniently left behind doesn't stop many
from calling into question the official conclusion, or eliminate
circumstantial evidence to the contrary.
"bigdog" <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7aea79a2-961c-47b8...@c27g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
claviger
> No tabulation of the direction from which the agents thought the shots
> came?
10 - Back and to the right.
5 --- Not sure
1 --- From behind.
claviger
> The overwhelming majority thought the last two shots were closer together.
> One I believe said that they were on top of each other. If not the same
> SSA, one referred the shots as a 'flurry'.
>
> It'd be interesting to know if they all commented on just how close those
> shots were.
>
8 -- Did not say
5 -- 5 seconds
3 -- 6 seconds
claviger
16 SS Agents in motorcade
TIME
8 / Did not say
5 / 5 seconds
3 / 6 seconds
DIRECTION
10 / Back to the right
5 / Not sure
1 / From behind
-----------------------------Time - - -
Direction------------------------------------
BENNETT --- Did not say - - - Not sure
GREER --- 3-4 sec between 1st - 2nd; last 2 shots simultaneous - - -
behind me, to the right rear
HICKEY --- possibly 4 - 5 seconds - - - appeared to come from the
right and rear and seemed to be at ground level.
HILL --- only heard 2 shots - - - right rear
JOHNS --- 2 shots 2-3 sec apart, jumped & ran to VP car heard 3rd shot
before reaching the car - - - looked to the right
KELLERMAN --- 5 seconds - - - I was sure that it came from the right
and perhaps into the rear
KINNEY --- Did not say - - - Not sure
KIVETT --- Did not say - - - As I was looking in the direction of the
noise, which was to my right rear
LANDIS --- 1st-2nd shot 2-3 secs; 2nd-3rd shot 1-2 secs - - - from
behind me over my right shoulder
LAWSON --- Did not say - - - from behind
MCINTYRE --- three shots within 5 sec - - - Not sure
READY --- Did not say - - - I immediately turned to my right rear
trying to locate the source but was not able to determine the exact
location.
ROBERTS --- Did not say - - - Did not say
SORRELS --- close to 6 sec - - - To the right and back.
TAYLOR --- Did not say - - - Did not say
YOUNGBLOOD --- 5 seconds - - - Not sure
jbarge
>
> - Show quoted text -
You mean what you consider "valid" evidence.
There are, for example, the Bill Newman-type eyewitnesses who stated
they thought the shot came from the Grassy Knoll.
There's the recorded 4th shot which the acoustic experts had placed as
originating from the Grassy Knoll - that first has to be debunked in
order to make that claim as well.
Since the brain wasn't sectioned one cannot definitively state what
the tracking of the brain damage would show.
Don't forget the brain weight at the autopsy was recorded as being
1500 grams - a nice round number, eh?
Not 1478 grams, or 1342 grams.
Naturally to ensure that they wouldn't miss any entry holes normal
autopsy procedure is shave all scalp hair and carefully examine the
bare skull - but they didn't do that either.
Okay, but a careful examination of the x-rays would also help, but
Humes et. al. saw no large fragments.
Well, yes....but it turns out they "missed" a large fragment visible
to the naked eye, or as the 1968 Clarke Panel states, "....a large
metallic fragment....(which) measures 6.5 mm. in diameter."
Whoops - I guess those docs weren't wearing their glasses!
R-i-g-h-t...they held up that x-ray and looked at it and missed a big
ol' 6.5 fragment stuck right in the skull - one that took the Clarke
Panel about 20 seconds to locate....sure they did....
NOT.
Though I do wonder what happened to the x-ray they did actually
examine......
Well, at least they kept their mistakes to minimum.
Whoooops - they misplaced the entry wound by 4 inches, all 3
docs....man, those 3 martini lunches can really hinder a guy.
Even FBI agents Silbert and O'Neil told the AARB that the photograph
of the back of JFK's head bears zero resemblance to the actual head
they saw.
One of them even called the photo a "reconstruction".
Well, no problem, because the ballistic evidence is el-rock solid-o.
For example, the FBI recorded Q9 from Connolly's wrist at about 30
plus grains.
Later relabeled, the Warren Commission's fragment was a paltry single
digit grain and barely visible to the naked eye.
Whoops - the Dallas PD took a picture of the fragment before turning
it over to the FBI, and it was helpfully published in Jesse Curry's
book "The JFK Assassination File".
The photograph is obviously the hefty Q9 fragment, and not the
microscopic fragment now claimed to be from Connolly's wrist.
Gerry Simone
movie.
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4bc0e179$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
yeuhd
> I wonder if Clint Hill had feelings of guilt like Eastwood did in that
> movie.
He did. Tears came to his eyes when he was interviewed by Mike Wallace
for "60 Minutes" in 1975. A transcript:
http://www.awesomestories.com/assets/clint-hill-helps-mrs-kennedy-seconds-after-the-shooting
Anthony Marsh
In the Line of Fire started with Clint Hill's story and then projected
it into the future.
Anthony Marsh
> I wonder if Clint Hill had feelings of guilt like Eastwood did in that
> movie.
>
Yes, he blamed himself for the assassination and had a nervous breakdown.
He is a hero. He reacted much faster and correctly compared to everyone
else. He tried to save the President. The only way he could have saved the
President would be if he started running BEFORE the shooting started. But
he was not psychic.
Anthony Marsh
It WAS sectioned and it WAS examined. Then they lost it.
But the trail of the bullet fragments is too high to line up with either
a WC trajectory or a HSCA trajectory.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rgbskull.gif
> Don't forget the brain weight at the autopsy was recorded as being
> 1500 grams - a nice round number, eh?
> Not 1478 grams, or 1342 grams.
> Naturally to ensure that they wouldn't miss any entry holes normal
> autopsy procedure is shave all scalp hair and carefully examine the
That is not how it is done. They do not shave all the scalp hair. They
shave around the identified wound to document its location and
characteristics. See some books on forensics.
> bare skull - but they didn't do that either.
They did examine the skull. Then they lied.
> Okay, but a careful examination of the x-rays would also help, but
> Humes et. al. saw no large fragments.
> Well, yes....but it turns out they "missed" a large fragment visible
> to the naked eye, or as the 1968 Clarke Panel states, "....a large
> metallic fragment....(which) measures 6.5 mm. in diameter."
It's easy to miss that fragment if is it not inside the head, but
underneath it.
> Whoops - I guess those docs weren't wearing their glasses!
> R-i-g-h-t...they held up that x-ray and looked at it and missed a big
> ol' 6.5 fragment stuck right in the skull - one that took the Clarke
> Panel about 20 seconds to locate....sure they did....
> NOT.
> Though I do wonder what happened to the x-ray they did actually
> examine......
> Well, at least they kept their mistakes to minimum.
> Whoooops - they misplaced the entry wound by 4 inches, all 3
> docs....man, those 3 martini lunches can really hinder a guy.
> Even FBI agents Silbert and O'Neil told the AARB that the photograph
> of the back of JFK's head bears zero resemblance to the actual head
> they saw.
> One of them even called the photo a "reconstruction".
> Well, no problem, because the ballistic evidence is el-rock solid-o.
> For example, the FBI recorded Q9 from Connolly's wrist at about 30
> plus grains.
> Later relabeled, the Warren Commission's fragment was a paltry single
> digit grain and barely visible to the naked eye.
> Whoops - the Dallas PD took a picture of the fragment before turning
> it over to the FBI, and it was helpfully published in Jesse Curry's
> book "The JFK Assassination File".
> The photograph is obviously the hefty Q9 fragment, and not the
> microscopic fragment now claimed to be from Connolly's wrist.
>
Interesting. Please upload the photograph you are talking about so that
we can see for ourselves what you mean.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***8 agents, estimating 5-6 seconds. The time between when JFK was struck
twice, was about 5 seconds.
The guestimates do not prove the shooting took place in 5 seconds, but are
consistent with a shooting of that duration.
Just as none of the agents turned to look back up Elm Street, in the
Zapruder film, prior to their disappearing from the film, around frame
Z200, none of the agents who did offer a guess as to the timing, thought
the shooting lasted longer than 6 seconds.
***Ron Judge
Amanda Barge
> On 4/10/2010 11:02 PM, jbarge wrote:
>
> > You mean what you consider "valid" evidence.
> > There are, for example, the Bill Newman-type eyewitnesses who stated
> > they thought the shot came from the Grassy Knoll.
> > There's the recorded 4th shot which the acoustic experts had placed as
> > originating from the Grassy Knoll - that first has to be debunked in
> > order to make that claim as well.
> > Since the brain wasn't sectioned one cannot definitively state what
> > the tracking of the brain damage would show.
>
> It WAS sectioned and it WAS examined. Then they lost it.
> But the trail of the bullet fragments is too high to line up with either
> a WC trajectory or a HSCA trajectory.
The examination of the brain is an interesting and convuluted story.
But I am unaware of the actual sectioning happening - what's the
source there?
The whole "trail of fragments" aspect is one I've seen but I've yet to
study in depth.
>
> http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rgbskull.gif
>
> > Don't forget the brain weight at the autopsy was recorded as being
> > 1500 grams - a nice round number, eh?
> > Not 1478 grams, or 1342 grams.
> > Naturally to ensure that they wouldn't miss any entry holes normal
> > autopsy procedure is shave all scalp hair and carefully examine the
>
> That is not how it is done. They do not shave all the scalp hair. They
> shave around the identified wound to document its location and
> characteristics. See some books on forensics.
Ah, perhaps I misunderstood what I read - I will go back and re-check.
My understanding is that if they are trying to find a bullet entry
wound and cannot they will shave.
Not that it is done automatically - perhaps my wording is imprecise
there.
> > bare skull - but they didn't do that either.
>
> They did examine the skull. Then they lied.
Something wrong happened somewhere along the line.
>
> > Okay, but a careful examination of the x-rays would also help, but
> > Humes et. al. saw no large fragments.
> > Well, yes....but it turns out they "missed" a large fragment visible
> > to the naked eye, or as the 1968 Clarke Panel states, "....a large
> > metallic fragment....(which) measures 6.5 mm. in diameter."
>
> It's easy to miss that fragment if is it not inside the head, but
> underneath it.
I am dubious that a large fragment obvious and visible to the naked
eyes of the Clarke Panel in 1968 on an X-ray would be missed by the
autopsy doctors in 1963.
Note that Humes told the Warren Commission that they "carefully" (his
word) examined the neck x-rays for evidence of a bullet, and none was
found.
Lo and behold, the same Clark Panel said that there were several
visible metal fragments in the neck as well!
> > Well, no problem, because the ballistic evidence is el-rock solid-o.
> > For example, the FBI recorded Q9 from Connolly's wrist at about 30
> > plus grains.
> > Later relabeled, the Warren Commission's fragment was a paltry single
> > digit grain and barely visible to the naked eye.
> > Whoops - the Dallas PD took a picture of the fragment before turning
> > it over to the FBI, and it was helpfully published in Jesse Curry's
> > book "The JFK Assassination File".
> > The photograph is obviously the hefty Q9 fragment, and not the
> > microscopic fragment now claimed to be from Connolly's wrist.
>
> Interesting. Please upload the photograph you are talking about so that
> we can see for ourselves what you mean.
I don't currently have the capability to upload scans or jpegs or
digital photos.
I first found Curry's book at the local college library a ways back,
with a photo of a collection of JFK evidence.
The book was originally only sold in Seven Eleven grocery stores or
some such.
There's the pistol, the rifle, 2 shells, etc. etc., and a circled
fragment labeled "Fragment from Gov. Connolly's Wrist."
This photo was later reporduced in "Murder in Dealey Plaza".
The whole metamorphis of Q9 was in covered in a recent book entitled
"Betrayel of Trust".
Anthony Marsh
> On Apr 11, 7:10 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 4/10/2010 11:02 PM, jbarge wrote:
>>
>>> You mean what you consider "valid" evidence.
>>> There are, for example, the Bill Newman-type eyewitnesses who stated
>>> they thought the shot came from the Grassy Knoll.
>>> There's the recorded 4th shot which the acoustic experts had placed as
>>> originating from the Grassy Knoll - that first has to be debunked in
>>> order to make that claim as well.
>>> Since the brain wasn't sectioned one cannot definitively state what
>>> the tracking of the brain damage would show.
>>
>> It WAS sectioned and it WAS examined. Then they lost it.
>> But the trail of the bullet fragments is too high to line up with either
>> a WC trajectory or a HSCA trajectory.
>
>
> The examination of the brain is an interesting and convuluted story.
> But I am unaware of the actual sectioning happening - what's the
> source there?
HSCA.
> The whole "trail of fragments" aspect is one I've seen but I've yet to
> study in depth.
Did you understand my diagram?
>>
>> http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rgbskull.gif
>>
>>> Don't forget the brain weight at the autopsy was recorded as being
>>> 1500 grams - a nice round number, eh?
>>> Not 1478 grams, or 1342 grams.
>>> Naturally to ensure that they wouldn't miss any entry holes normal
>>> autopsy procedure is shave all scalp hair and carefully examine the
>>
>> That is not how it is done. They do not shave all the scalp hair. They
>> shave around the identified wound to document its location and
>> characteristics. See some books on forensics.
>
> Ah, perhaps I misunderstood what I read - I will go back and re-check.
> My understanding is that if they are trying to find a bullet entry
> wound and cannot they will shave.
See also Werner Spitz
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter13b:attackoftheclones
As hard as it may be to believe, in recent editions of Medicolegal
Investigation of Death, Spitz makes an even stranger mistake. He writes
"One of the gravest errors made in the autopsy of President John F.
Kennedy was the fact that the back of the head was never shaved. Thus,
to this day, speculation and innuendos persist regarding the exact
location of the wound, and some even claim that this shot came from the
front or the grassy knoll, at the right side of the President's
motorcade, suggesting a conspiracy by at least two assassins."
> Not that it is done automatically - perhaps my wording is imprecise
> there.
>
>>> bare skull - but they didn't do that either.
>>
>> They did examine the skull. Then they lied.
>
> Something wrong happened somewhere along the line.
>
And they were incompetent. And they were under military orders.
>>
>>> Okay, but a careful examination of the x-rays would also help, but
>>> Humes et. al. saw no large fragments.
>>> Well, yes....but it turns out they "missed" a large fragment visible
>>> to the naked eye, or as the 1968 Clarke Panel states, "....a large
>>> metallic fragment....(which) measures 6.5 mm. in diameter."
>>
>> It's easy to miss that fragment if is it not inside the head, but
>> underneath it.
>
> I am dubious that a large fragment obvious and visible to the naked
> eyes of the Clarke Panel in 1968 on an X-ray would be missed by the
> autopsy doctors in 1963.
I am not. They missed the semi-circular defect in the frontal bone, very
close to where Kilduff pointed to indicate where a bullet hit.
> Note that Humes told the Warren Commission that they "carefully" (his
> word) examined the neck x-rays for evidence of a bullet, and none was
> found.
Carefully? I call them The Three Stooges.
> Lo and behold, the same Clark Panel said that there were several
> visible metal fragments in the neck as well!
>
The autopsy doctors did not look for very tiny bullet fragments. They
wanted to find the largest fragments they could for the FBI to examine.
>>> Well, no problem, because the ballistic evidence is el-rock solid-o.
>>> For example, the FBI recorded Q9 from Connolly's wrist at about 30
>>> plus grains.
>>> Later relabeled, the Warren Commission's fragment was a paltry single
>>> digit grain and barely visible to the naked eye.
>>> Whoops - the Dallas PD took a picture of the fragment before turning
>>> it over to the FBI, and it was helpfully published in Jesse Curry's
>>> book "The JFK Assassination File".
>>> The photograph is obviously the hefty Q9 fragment, and not the
>>> microscopic fragment now claimed to be from Connolly's wrist.
>>
>> Interesting. Please upload the photograph you are talking about so that
>> we can see for ourselves what you mean.
>
> I don't currently have the capability to upload scans or jpegs or
> digital photos.
Can you browse web sites? Google Images may help you find the right photo.
> I first found Curry's book at the local college library a ways back,
> with a photo of a collection of JFK evidence.
> The book was originally only sold in Seven Eleven grocery stores or
> some such.
> There's the pistol, the rifle, 2 shells, etc. etc., and a circled
> fragment labeled "Fragment from Gov. Connolly's Wrist."
OK, what page number?
> This photo was later reporduced in "Murder in Dealey Plaza".
> The whole metamorphis of Q9 was in covered in a recent book entitled
> "Betrayel of Trust".
>
See John Hunt's analysis and remember that the fragments did change
while in government hands.
claviger
Another observation by a DPS officer who was the driver of the Vice
President's car in the motorcade:
Hurchel Jacks
Before the President' a body was covered it appeared that the bullet
had struck him above the right ear or near the temple. They removed
his body at that time.
claviger
Interesting response from Mayor Cabell :
Mr. HUBERT - Could you estimate the number of seconds, say, between
the first and second shots, as related to the number of seconds
between the second and third shots? Perhaps doing it on the basis of a
ratio?
Mr. CABELL - Well, I would put it this way. That approximately 10
seconds elapsed between the first and second shots, with not more than
5 seconds having elapsed until the third one.
Mr. HUBERT - Two to one ratio?
Mr. CABELL - Approximately that. And again I say that, as you
mentioned, as a matter of being relative. I couldn't tell you the
exact seconds because they were not counted.
claviger
DPD James W. ("J.W.") Courson, one of two mid motorcade motorcycle
officers:
Two other officers and I helped take the Presdient out of the car and put
him onto the stretcher. From what I was able to see of the wound, the
damage seemed to be in the right rear of his head, but it was hard to tell
because there was so much blood. The back part of the skull seemed to be
laying over the forehead. I didn't actually see an exit wound since I saw
only the back part of his head."
claviger
Same day:
Hickey 11/22/63
Bennett 11/22/63
Kinney 11/22/63
Ready 11/22/63
_____________________
5-9 days after:
Landis----------11/27/63
Johns-----------11/29/63
Kellerman-----11/29/63
Kivett-----------11/29/63
McIntyre-------11/29/63
Roberts---------11/29/63
Taylor------------11/29/63
Youngblood----11/29/63
Hill-----------------11/30/63
Lawson-----------12/1/63
_____________________
Greer------------------?
Sorrels----------------?
claviger
1) HICKEY
Just prior to the shooting the Presidential car turned left at the
intersection and started down an incline toward an underpass followed
by 679X. After a very short distance I heard a loud report which
sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and
rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to
my right and rear in an attempt to identify it.
The motorcade then left the airport and proceeded along the parade
route. Just prior to the shooting the Presidential car turned left at
the intersection and started down an incline toward an underpass
followed by 679X. After a very short distance I heard a loud report
which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right
and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked
to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my
attention except people shouting and cheering.
A disturbance in 679X caused me to look forward toward the President's
car. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear
and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his
left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as
I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard
two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me
completely different in sound than the first report and were in such
rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element
between them.
It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear
of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed
because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there
didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to
hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him
fall forward and to his left again. - Possibly four or five seconds
elapsed from the time of the first report and the last.
2) McINTYRE
Most, if not all the agents in the follow-up car had drawn their
weapons and agent Hickey was handling the AR-15. None of us could
determine the origin of the shots, and no shots were fired by any
agent.
3) BENNETT
At this point I heard what_sounded like a fire-cracker. I immediately
looked from the right/crowd/physical area/and looked towards the
President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open
convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the President I
heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President
about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed
immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head. I
immediately hollered "he's hit'' and reached for the AR-15 located on
the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up
the AR-I5. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side
of the area. I had drawn my revolver when I saw S/A Hickey had the
AR15. I was unable to see anything or one that could have fired the
shots. The President's car immediately kicked into high gear and the
follow-up car followed.
4) ROBERTS
I turned around a couple times, just after the shooting and saw that
some of the Special Agents had their guns drawn, I know I drew mine,
and saw SA Hickey in rear seat with the AR-15, and asked him to be
careful with it.
5) LAWSON
As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud,
sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like
gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles
running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car
with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone.
6) YOUNGBLOOD
I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very
abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the
Presidential follow-up car were abnormal.
During this time, I heard two more explosion noises and observed SA
Hickey in the Presidential follow-up car poised on the car with the
AR-15 rifle looking toward the buildings.
Gerry Simone
analysis?
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4bc2b3a8$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Gerry Simone
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:be89e25a-c88d-470e...@u34g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
Claviger, are you referring to the time interval for ALL shots?
Gerry Simone
How convenient (I'd like to read their testimonies) that 2 shots were
separated by 5 seconds.
So 5 x 18 frames = 90 frames.
223/224 + 90 = Z frame 313/314.
<r2bz...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:34aa0d0b-45e6-4ca5...@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Gerry Simone
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d816f895-3cbd-43a8...@x3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Gerry Simone
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4bc20dcf$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Gerry Simone
While you're at it, what was the question(s) posed to each of the SSAs?
Are some referring to the timing interval for ALL shots, or between
certain shots?
This is important.
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ea72cf3f-e1d8-4aea...@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
Gerry Simone
last of 3 shots. He claims (his account is quite detailed) that there
seemed no time element between the 2nd and 3rd shot.
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:95888174-248b-4dcd...@u31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
claviger
> See my question at the bottom.
>
Claviger, are you referring to the time interval for ALL shots? Yes, some
thought all 3 shots took place in 5 sec and others 6 sec. Keep in mind no
one used a stop watch and time is one of the hardest things to gage in a
totally unexpected situation. If all shots happened in 10 seconds that is
still a very short space of time.
claviger
> Okay, Hickey specifies that it was 5 seconds between the 1st shot and the
> last of 3 shots. He claims (his account is quite detailed) that there
> seemed no time element between the 2nd and 3rd shot.
As did others who say it sounded like "bang-bang". The implication is one
bolt action rifle could not possibly have made those shots so close
together. That leaves four options:
a) There was a shot between z224 and z312, as Andrew Mason contends.
b) Two different rifles were involved.
c) The rifle was a semi-automatic weapon.
d) There were two sounds but not two shots.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***10 seconds is twice as long as 5 seconds. 8.5 seconds is 1.5
seconds short of 10 seconds.
The interval between JFK being shot in the back and shot in the head
was about 5 seconds. Of the 8 agents who gave an opinion, all were
within a second of the time interval between the two shots which
struck JFK.
During the interval in which the agents in the follow car were seen in
the Zapruder film, none of them appeared to show any response to
hearing a report.
When JFK appeared from behind the sign, he had a look of shock on his
face, indicating he had just been struck by a bullet.
I believe the consistent time recollection of the 8 agents was such,
due to the shooting occurring between the two shots which struck JFK,
which was about 5 seconds.
***Ron Judge
bigdog
I vote for d. Clint Hill reported hearing a double sound as he
approached the limo and said one sounded metallic. I wonder if he
heard the bullet fragment striking the windshield frame which he would
have heard a split second before the sound of the muzzle blast reached
him and been distinctive from the muzzle blast. This could be reason
for the two sounds that were right on top of each other as quite a few
people described.
Anthony Marsh
> Tony, thanks for your reply. Do you have a ready link to John Hunt's
> analysis?
>
I think it is still on JFK Lancer.
Anthony Marsh
Many of us think that is the best explanation.
Only a couple of people think the chrome dent was a direct hit.
claviger
Correction:
Hurchel Jacks (3 shots)
Before the President's body was covered it appeared that the bullet